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Community => Task Force Hail Mary => Topic started by: downix on September 01, 2014, 09:01:52 PM

Title: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 01, 2014, 09:01:52 PM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on September 01, 2014, 09:11:17 PM
Wow.

I'm speechless.

You guys think big!

I'm hoping we can ask you some questions here (in terms of how this arrangement would work out), but I'll refrain until I see if it's okay.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Phaerius on September 01, 2014, 09:12:33 PM
Seems about what I'd hoped for, glad you guys are taking what you can get. Wish you all a bunch of luck and glad to hear that its familiar faces indeed that are doing this. I'm also really glad to hear that its going to be an umbrella to include all of the offspring projects.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Samuraiko on September 01, 2014, 09:13:45 PM
Um... wow.

I... errrr... wow.

(10 minutes later)

Okay, next question - "licensing the IP"... does that mean if, say, someone wanted to start writing books for the CoH IP, that spinoff company would be the one we'd talk to? Or is it solely for GAMING purposes?

(Yes I realize that's contingent on said sale actually going through.)

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 01, 2014, 09:13:51 PM
*fangirling* Keep doing what you do!!!! thank you for update!!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 01, 2014, 09:14:20 PM
Thank you very much for all of the efforts that you have undertaken in order to bring City of Heroes back from the grave.

I don't really know what else to say. It's a shame we couldn't get i24, but that's more of an "oh well" than anything else. You've all done an exceedingly excellent job, and we really appreciate it.

If there's anything we can do to help, please let us know, but I get the feeling just cheering you guys on and being decent is going to be our best move at this point.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Goddangit on September 01, 2014, 09:15:34 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Lupur on September 01, 2014, 09:16:11 PM
downix

Thank you.

That is all.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sullster on September 01, 2014, 09:16:20 PM
Thank you for your efforts.

Looking forward to future updates no matter the outcome.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 09:16:29 PM
Just want to say thank you for your efforts. What ever outcome happens, you will always have my gratitude
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: CrimsonCapacitor on September 01, 2014, 09:16:42 PM
Thank you for fighting the good fight.  We're all here hoping you'll succeed. 

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: PopeJonPaul on September 01, 2014, 09:16:47 PM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Spatch1971 on September 01, 2014, 09:17:19 PM
My thanks to those involved, and for today's revelation and progress report.  I mainly lurk here on the forums, but felt compelled to post today and extend my well wishes to this group who have been fighting to resurrect CoH.  Keep up the great work!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Turgenev on September 01, 2014, 09:17:28 PM
Thank you, Nathaniel. The clarification is appreciated and welcome, and you have all the luck an old, retired Controller can muster.


-T.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sophronisba on September 01, 2014, 09:18:17 PM
This is pretty freaking impressive work. Kudos. No matter how it turns out, you guys rock.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Darkwave on September 01, 2014, 09:18:41 PM
Echoing the thoughts of many here, thank you so much for progressing this to this level. Fingers crossed everyone can get what they want!  ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Biz on September 01, 2014, 09:19:34 PM
Thank you and good luck! If there's anything we can do in the meantime please let us know. Even if you just need us to wait faster!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 01, 2014, 09:19:43 PM
I will take issue 23. Ha, I would take issue 6. I would take issue 1! I will take anything!

[pssst, is there any chance we could work those I24 costume pieces in eventually... ?  8) ]
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ukaserex on September 01, 2014, 09:20:23 PM
This is....intriguing!
So many questions...but ... I'll keep my trap shut for now.

Very interesting stuff!

But..with Windows 9 supposedly being released very soon...some estimates at April, 2015, others say even earlier because of the flop that Windows 8 is...that really limits the time of this migration, I'm thinking. Or maybe it doesn't. No rule says we have to get Windows 9 right away - at least, I hope not.

Still, I have a bunch of questions and comments, but I have to absorb this...I'm swimming in it right now. It was a refreshing big toe dunk at first, now I'm splashing in the deep end wondering I should call out "Marco" and listen for "Polo"...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Pearl Dragon on September 01, 2014, 09:23:06 PM

Still wanting, hoping, and not giving up.  Thank you!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Artillerie on September 01, 2014, 09:23:25 PM
Thank you for the news :) Wishing you all the best for the onward progress of the venture, it all sounds very interesting!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on September 01, 2014, 09:23:37 PM
To heck with it, I'm going to ask my questions. The worst that can happen is they can be ignored. :D

First, THANK YOU SO MUCH for the update. Win or lose, success or failure, at least you've made the effort and you've gone farther than anyone else has to this point. You have my gratitude-- and that of many others-- for making the effort. You have all given us hope in a dark time.


Questions:

1. When you say the other games will have the option to remove the "Spiritual" successor and go with something more official, will they be allowed to allowed to use the lore of COX (hero groups, villains, etc), and the various AT mechanics? Will they be buying a license to allow this?

2. Who will own the IP of COX? This will be a completely separate company from MWM?

3. If successful, will you continue working as part of MWM AND the COX venture?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fleur_uk on September 01, 2014, 09:23:39 PM
Thank you :) wow eeek .... :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 01, 2014, 09:24:02 PM
Thank you for all the time and effort you have put forth so far, and I hope everything goes well of course!

Er, are you really planning to migrate everyone off the original CoH right away when Windows 9 launches, or only years from now after everyone has universally adopted Windows 9, at which point CoH will no longer run for anyone because it won't be compatible with Win 9?   Because MS is showing off Win 9 publicly this September and wants to release it in 2015.  So how would you even get a reverse-engineered server completed for CoH before Win 9 launches?  I was figuring reverse-engineering would take 6 months to a year at a best-case scenario.

It's interesting that all the CoH spiritual successors may have the ability to reference CoH without penalty.  That could be opening a can of worms if they're not all ultimately high-quality games though.  I suspect NCSoft will do ongoing reviews of each game before it launches just in case. 

This sounds like it could be interesting, but it also all sounds a really long ways off.  I hope Team Hail Mary doesn't get harassed to death in the interim, and I wish the whole team the best of luck in getting CoH back and the sequels off the ground.  And even if it all comes to naught, I appreciate the time and dedication that everyone involved has shown.

Thanks, and have a great day!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 01, 2014, 09:24:18 PM
Um... wow.

I... errrr... wow.

(10 minutes later)

Okay, next question - "licensing the IP"... does that mean if, say, someone wanted to start writing books for the CoH IP, that spinoff company would be the one we'd talk to? Or is it solely for GAMING purposes?

(Yes I realize that's contingent on said sale actually going through.)

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
The goal is to have a spot to go for yes, writing books, licensing logos for shirts, etc.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Tubbius on September 01, 2014, 09:27:30 PM
Best wishes on everything!  I23 Maintenance Mode can work.  Here's hoping we can access it, play it, and rebuild on it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shadowe on September 01, 2014, 09:27:58 PM
Downix, and everyone else at MWM, Ironwolf, and everybody that has been involved in this process so far (yes, that includes NCSoft):

Thank you.

Thank you for taking the time, and looking to do it right.

Thank you for the hope this brings.

Thank you for working to bring our home back.

I know there is a long way to go, and I know there is a lot more to do, and I know this idea isn't in the bag. I sincerely hope it works to everyone's satisfaction.

Thank you.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 01, 2014, 09:28:29 PM
I will do my best Wayne and Garth...

"We're not worthy!"
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: TheBeatnik on September 01, 2014, 09:28:46 PM
There's plenty to ponder here.

While I'm still digesting the news and speculating about implications, let me add my thanks to the team. Good luck, I'll be pulling for you guys.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: DemonCaller on September 01, 2014, 09:29:19 PM
I'm floored. At least the part of me that kept saying that this was yet another failed pass is floored.

You just gave me another reason to get my computer fixed to get back up and running. Maybe even get that flame orange case I started to get it last month.

Tying CoH into CoT and Valance? All I can say is " Holy Mother of God and Rassilon!" (it's what I say when I'm floored like this, k?) That is ambitious.....

I gotta admire you for thinking big...no matter what happens. Thank you!

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blackout on September 01, 2014, 09:29:50 PM
I'm not sure as to whether Downix pulled a Nemesis or a Requiem here, but either way well done sir! And thank you very much for your efforts!
I will admit as well that it is very encouraging to finally hear something concrete about this deal and get confirmation that it is 101% real, so thanks very much for that too :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Remaugen on September 01, 2014, 09:30:33 PM
Wooooot!


We're nearly there!   ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Mental Minister on September 01, 2014, 09:30:47 PM
Thanks for the update and for you hard work. As for now I will continue to wait patiently for the outcome.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on September 01, 2014, 09:31:38 PM
Okay. I guess I have one more question because it's unclear to me.

So "COX 1.5" would be a port of COX into the Unreal Engine. Does that mean there would be no official COX 2?

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 01, 2014, 09:32:28 PM
This is....intriguing!
So many questions...but ... I'll keep my trap shut for now.

Very interesting stuff!

But..with Windows 9 supposedly being released very soon...some estimates at April, 2015, others say even earlier because of the flop that Windows 8 is...that really limits the time of this migration, I'm thinking. Or maybe it doesn't. No rule says we have to get Windows 9 right away - at least, I hope not.

I would be willing to have a CoX-dedicated PC that I did nothing else with, but keep the game on.

Here's my question [rhetorical only at this point]: if we get the game back, are we going to be able to use the game version we have DLed on our PC, the original one I mean? Or would we have to buy and install a new one?

Is the old version so tied to our original accounts that we could not use it? I would happily buy a new copy, I'm just curious.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FourSpeed on September 01, 2014, 09:32:37 PM
Interesting news.

Thanks for the update, and your team's efforts, downix.

GL on finalizing the deal in the (relatively?) near future. 

It's a shame you can't seem to get the source code for I23/24 (something compilable at least). If it's
true that Win-9 would likely break the binary anyway, that seems like a fairly short-lived resurrection
(W9 is rumoured to release Q2-Q3 of 2015).

I suppose anything is better than nothing, but that news is both intriguing ... and disappointing in its way.

In any case that doesn't detract from the grattitude I feel for making those efforts - thank you.


Regards,
4
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Lava-Lad on September 01, 2014, 09:33:03 PM
Thank you, Downix and the whole team!  Your approach has worked well enough to get this far, so keep up the good work and let us know when we can pop the corks!!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: amethyst.andi on September 01, 2014, 09:34:08 PM
Thank you so much, guys.  It is very much appreciated.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 01, 2014, 09:34:13 PM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: r00tb0ySlim on September 01, 2014, 09:35:37 PM
Excellent news!!  The teams respectful approach to NCSoft speaks volumes, well done!!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sihada on September 01, 2014, 09:36:51 PM
I'm grateful to the team for all of their hard work.

I am curious to see how the community is going to handle mutiple CoH games all competing for their gaming dollars. 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: skippy7721 on September 01, 2014, 09:38:26 PM
Thank you for everything Nate.

Okay, here is my question. Is there any plans for an additional Kickstarter?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 09:38:37 PM
Okay. I guess I have one more question because it's unclear to me.

So "COX 1.5" would be a port of COX into the Unreal Engine. Does that mean there would be no official COX 2?

My understanding from his comment is CoX 1.5 will be in stopped at i23 and in maintenance mode with unreal engine while CoT, H&V, Valiance would be the CoX2 spiritually. That was my interpretation
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Phaetan on September 01, 2014, 09:39:31 PM
Quote
I am curious to see how the community is going to handle mutiple CoH games all competing for their gaming dollars.

With the preface of "If this works:"

With confused gratitude after a long drought would be my guess.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MaxEternal on September 01, 2014, 09:40:29 PM
Thank you for your efforts and may the negotiations go well!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HelpfulHands on September 01, 2014, 09:40:48 PM
Thanks to all involved in this project, as well as all of the spiritual successors, for keeping the dream and hope of us returning home alive.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dr Toerag on September 01, 2014, 09:41:49 PM
Thank you so much :). I can't think beyond that yet, I'm too happy!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pogoman on September 01, 2014, 09:43:31 PM
I am going to say this... THANK YOU TO ALL INVOLVED WITH THIS!
I'm just a humble blog talk radio host that keeps people up to date on all the happenings of the "successor" games and COH-returning related news. This IS big news. NOT the big news some people wanted but it is obviously BIG news! I wish you luck in continuing talks and will await updates regarding this!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: dvandom on September 01, 2014, 09:44:21 PM
There's a whole lot of legal issues around the user data.  IIRC, the EULA players agreed to did NOT give NCSoft the ability to transfer the data to anyone else, or at least makes it legally iffy if they were to try.  So it's best to just leave that out of the negotiations entirely.  The usual IANAL, I'm not involved in the negotiations, I didn't actually read the entire EULA for comprehension, etc.

---Dave
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ohioknight on September 01, 2014, 09:44:35 PM
Awesome.  Thank you for your efforts and for the infomation -- good luck, we're all counting on you.
 :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 01, 2014, 09:45:23 PM
Now that this is public, please, please, please do not hesitate to reach out to the community we can do anything at all to help.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 09:45:37 PM
My understanding from his comment is CoX 1.5 will be in stopped at i23 and in maintenance mode with unreal engine while CoT, H&V, Valiance would be the CoX2 spiritually. That was my interpretation

Revival will not sit in maint. mode. The game will be updated, and expanded.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Inkblaster on September 01, 2014, 09:46:00 PM
At this point the original game is 10 years old, so if all we get is a true successor, and they have the license to use the sidekick technology, arguably the best unique feature that nobody else has come close to, in a sequel game, that's cool.

Good luck un-masked stranger.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: WolfSoul on September 01, 2014, 09:46:29 PM
Thanks so much.

I could cry, but I'm saving that for the "We got it!" announcement.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Serpine on September 01, 2014, 09:47:48 PM
Downix,

Awesome news.  Questions:

* So would APR be another separate company licensing from CoH IP?

* Where does CoH2 fit into this: Is that like APR part 2 (APR being a stopgap to address Windows 9)?

* Would you end up being the president of CoH IP, APR, and MWM?

* Is the line "This could be expanded for any of them, should the desire be there" intended to indicate that a successor project could just license so aggressively that they essentially merge with APR for forming CoH2 (I'm basically thinking in terms of something like CoT blending their creations into the material from APR to create a seamless game entity)?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fleur_uk on September 01, 2014, 09:48:16 PM
Downix,
Can we still have our game without the source code? and Thank you again, and for such a detailed post.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 09:48:35 PM
Revival will not sit in maint. mode. The game will be updated, and expanded.

Well that's good to know :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Demilion on September 01, 2014, 09:49:16 PM
I am giddy with anticipation on how this will turn out!  Good.  Bad.  I don't care, progress is being made  :D


For my curiosity, how is everyone going to 'regulate' the multiple CoX games out there?  Multiple universes?  Crossovers?  Whatever the outcome may be, I am grateful for every game developer's hardships on their project(s) and efforts for a better tomorrow!






....and yes, I'm still in withdrawals of CoX ._.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Burnt Toast on September 01, 2014, 09:49:44 PM
I'm totally confused.... I have absolutely NO understanding of coding etc etc and this announcement was a lil too technical for me or something.


If everything goes as planned:


CoH as we knew it in Issue 23 will be coming back.. yes?


The whole Windows 9 thing is confusing me... are you saying that when Windows 9 hits... CoH Issue 23... won't work??


Sorry but I have read the statement 5 or 6 times and am totally not understanding what will happen if everything goes through.


Can someone dumb it down for me?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 09:49:59 PM
Downix,
Can we still have our game without the source code? and Thank you again, and for such a detailed post.

Kind of, Yeah. It means no updates to the original game, however.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Synfoola on September 01, 2014, 09:50:18 PM
Just got word of this on FB.

Fantastic stuff, gang. We're all grateful for the tenacity and patience you've exhibited to pull this off. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dev7on on September 01, 2014, 09:51:29 PM
Wow thank you Nate. I hope we pull this off.  ;D WE ARE HEROES!!!! THIS IS WHAT WE DO!!!!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fleur_uk on September 01, 2014, 09:51:54 PM
Cheers Irishgirl, No clue on all the tech stuff.  xx
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 01, 2014, 09:52:16 PM
To heck with it, I'm going to ask my questions. The worst that can happen is they can be ignored. :D

First, THANK YOU SO MUCH for the update. Win or lose, success or failure, at least you've made the effort and you've gone farther than anyone else has to this point. You have my gratitude-- and that of many others-- for making the effort. You have all given us hope in a dark time.


Questions:

1. When you say the other games will have the option to remove the "Spiritual" successor and go with something more official, will they be allowed to allowed to use the lore of COX (hero groups, villains, etc), and the various AT mechanics? Will they be buying a license to allow this?

2. Who will own the IP of COX? This will be a completely separate company from MWM?

3. If successful, will you continue working as part of MWM AND the COX venture?
1) a license of some sort will be needed to meet the obligations of protecting the property. We do not want the next Scarlet Blade to use the material without any say so.

2) a holding company, independent of MWM.

3) for this, I am the salesman. I will leave it to others to manage, as MWM is enough management for me.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: InOnePiece on September 01, 2014, 09:52:50 PM
Thanks for the news, and continued best wishes.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nadia Luma on September 01, 2014, 09:53:04 PM
Seriously even the thought of this happening slightly fills the void this game left behind. The pure excitement that I have right now packs the hole in my heart.
I'm truly grateful as much as everyone else of the effort you have put in for best community of gamers I've ever had the pleasure of playing along side.

Again Thank You so much.

I hope in the end we all get what we want.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nasty Rascal on September 01, 2014, 09:54:45 PM
So...the important question simply is... What can we do to help?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 01, 2014, 09:55:47 PM
I am still confused. Will there be a CoH2 or JUST the spinoff projects?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 09:56:07 PM
I'm totally confused.... I have absolutely NO understanding of coding etc etc and this announcement was a lil too technical for me or something.
If everything goes as planned:
CoH as we knew it in Issue 23 will be coming back.. yes?
The whole Windows 9 thing is confusing me... are you saying that when Windows 9 hits... CoH Issue 23... won't work??
Sorry but I have read the statement 5 or 6 times and am totally not understanding what will happen if everything goes through.
Can someone dumb it down for me?

For starters, for those who don't know.... I run APR. Nate and I have been in talks for a little while now, and I've got a pretty good handle on what the plan is. I'll try and answer some people's questions as best I can, So poor Nate isn't having to do everything.

CoH Issue 23 is planned to make a return, yes. However, the team will not have the ability to make ANY updates to it. No new content, no new costume pieces, no patching out bugs.

On windows 9, I have no information. Most likely there will be compatability issues with running something as old as CoH. Also, see above...No new content.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 09:56:09 PM
So...the important question simply is... What can we do to help?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ghost Hero on September 01, 2014, 09:56:16 PM
I would like to chime in with my thanks.  Keep on going team!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Lava-Lad on September 01, 2014, 09:57:04 PM
Kind of, Yeah. It means no updates to the original game, however.

Enter the heroes of SCoRE
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Lava-Lad on September 01, 2014, 09:58:31 PM
For starters, for those who don't know.... I run APR. Nate and I have been in talks for a little while now, and I've got a pretty good handle on what the plan is. I'll try and answer some people's questions as best I can, So poor Nate isn't having to do everything.

CoH Issue 23 is planned to make a return, yes. However, the team will not have the ability to make ANY updates to it. No new content, no new costume pieces, no patching out bugs.

On windows 9, I have no information. Most likely there will be compatability issues with running something as old as CoH. Also, see above...No new content.

Does that include player generated content?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 01, 2014, 09:58:51 PM
Enter the heroes of SCoRE
Score is server only. This issue is of client. They will have the same issue.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 01, 2014, 09:58:58 PM
For starters, for those who don't know.... I run APR. Nate and I have been in talks for a little while now, and I've got a pretty good handle on what the plan is. I'll try and answer some people's questions as best I can, So poor Nate isn't having to do everything.

CoH Issue 23 is planned to make a return, yes. However, the team will not have the ability to make ANY updates to it. No new content, no new costume pieces, no patching out bugs.

On windows 9, I have no information. Most likely there will be compatability issues with running something as old as CoH. Also, see above...No new content.
What is APR?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: erich on September 01, 2014, 09:59:06 PM
Thanks for your hard work in trying to bring the game back to the community.

I updated my site with this information and also informed my facebook group (players that were on Liberty).

They will be excited to hear this.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: bugzee on September 01, 2014, 09:59:13 PM
Thanks Nate, I am grateful for the efforts. Is source code access completely off the table? This "holding company", they are the ones to basically port the existing i23 binary to a new updated engine? Or did I not understand what you posted..?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Winter Fable on September 01, 2014, 09:59:18 PM
I'm totally confused.... I have absolutely NO understanding of coding etc etc and this announcement was a lil too technical for me or something.


If everything goes as planned:


CoH as we knew it in Issue 23 will be coming back.. yes?


The whole Windows 9 thing is confusing me... are you saying that when Windows 9 hits... CoH Issue 23... won't work??


Sorry but I have read the statement 5 or 6 times and am totally not understanding what will happen if everything goes through.


Can someone dumb it down for me?
This ^^^^^Thank You for all the work you have done,and I'm probably in the minority on this but,does this mean we can have  CoX back like it was.I loved the fact that it was simple and easy to play,how the powers worked and team dynamics.If possible that is what I would want.The new versions may look better but I'm not sure anything will ever play like our beloved game.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FourSpeed on September 01, 2014, 09:59:21 PM
Downix,
Can we still have our game without the source code? and Thank you again, and for such a detailed post.
I'm purely speculating here, but the interpretation I have from downix's post (PLEASE correct me if I've
misinterpreted) is:

1>  *IF* they get that COH-I23 binary, that could be run in maintenance mode on pre Win-9
software environment and server(s). There's no character or account data, so I assume any players
would (by necessity) start from scratch. Nothing has been mentioned about pricing or vet rewards etc.

2> MWM - CoT would be able to be released as COH 1.5

3> Future ? ? ?


So, presuming the first IF becomes fact, I'd say "yes, we can get our game back", but for how long they
are willing to host it, and how long you want to keep your PC at Win 8(?) or earlier, and at what costs,
remain open questions.


Regards,
4
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: PreciousRoy on September 01, 2014, 09:59:41 PM
I know this isn't a yes or a promise... but as a City of Titans Kickstarter, this is just about the best possible news I could have hoped for... was not what I was expecting... and makes me very, very happy.

Thanks for everything you and the team are doing-- I23 and CoT, too.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Teikiatsu on September 01, 2014, 10:01:45 PM
EDIT: dumb question, I will reword
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 01, 2014, 10:02:50 PM
I'm purely speculating here, but the interpretation I have from downix's post (PLEASE correct me if I've
misinterpreted) is:

1>  *IF* they get that COH-I23 binary, that could be run in maintenance mode on pre Win-9
software environment and server(s). There's no character or account data, so I assume any players
would (by necessity) start from scratch. Nothing has been mentioned about pricing or vet rewards etc.

2> MWM - CoT would be able to be released as COH 1.5

3> Future ? ? ?


So, presuming the first IF becomes fact, I'd say "yes, we can get our game back", but for how long they
are willing to host it, and how long you want to keep your PC at Win 8(?) or earlier, and at what costs,
remain open questions.


Regards,
4
My question is does this give them the ability to have a CoH2 not just "spiritual successors? Obviously I am happy and grateful but it would be nice to know this isn't the only possibity either.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 01, 2014, 10:03:10 PM
I'm purely speculating here, but the interpretation I have from downix's post (PLEASE correct me if I've
misinterpreted) is:

1>  *IF* they get that COH-I23 binary, that could be run in maintenance mode on pre Win-9
software environment and server(s). There's no character or account data, so I assume any players
would (by necessity) start from scratch. Nothing has been mentioned about pricing or vet rewards etc.

2> MWM - CoT would be able to be released as COH 1.5

3> Future ? ? ?


So, presuming the first IF becomes fact, I'd say "yes, we can get our game back", but for how long they
are willing to host it, and how long you want to keep your PC at Win 8(?) or earlier, and at what costs,
remain open questions.


Regards,
4
Not quite for #2. Under the plan, the CoT build would be licensed to Atlas Park Revived to make CoH 1.5.
Same engine, different games. May have a shared user database and crossover opportunities, but that it up to MWM and APR.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blackout on September 01, 2014, 10:03:24 PM
This might not be the best question, but do you think that moving CoX over to the unreal engine will have any negative repercussions? It might just be me but I can't help but worry that it might lose some of its visual charm. Like I said might be a stupid question, but I still can't help but worry a little.  ???
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 01, 2014, 10:03:38 PM
I'm not to concerned about the Windows 9 incompatibility thing, we have emulators for nearly every operating system ever created at our fingertips.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ukaserex on September 01, 2014, 10:04:10 PM
Ok...since a couple of you are answering questions, yay!

Issue 23 - good. I can work with that. That means that ski chalet will still be open. Very, very good! Love to ski. (not in real life, I'd break my legs)

A migration to APR - did I get the right? First, CoH as we knew it would be up, live, only no character data. All starting from scratch. Better that than nothing. Then, we migrate to APR, which is like a CoH 1.5 because it's on Unreal 4 and can handle Windows 9. No time table for this, because nobody is forcing us to use Win 9.

Then, eventually, one or more of the "spiritual successors" would come out with their respective games, and if they use CoH stuff, they would deal with the new licensing company that would own the rights to CoH. They drop the "spiritual", because they would be the real successors to the game. But - Valiance, MWM, and I guess Heroes and Villains - they are each making their own game, I thought. Who's working on CoH 2.0? Or did I make an inferential leap that has no legs to land with?

I keep reading and I'm just overloaded, so I'm sorry if you've spelled it out in black and white and I just didn't get it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Burnt Toast on September 01, 2014, 10:06:14 PM
I guess my main confusion is:


WTH is CoH 1.5??


Is there plans for a CoH2?


How long will CoH 1 be online/playable?


Is CoH 1.5 just CoH1 but "altered" to run on Unreal 4??



Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 01, 2014, 10:06:31 PM
Ok...since a couple of you are answering questions, yay!

Issue 23 - good. I can work with that. That means that ski chalet will still be open. Very, very good! Love to ski. (not in real life, I'd break my legs)

A migration to APR - did I get the right? First, CoH as we knew it would be up, live, only no character data. All starting from scratch. Better that than nothing. Then, we migrate to APR, which is like a CoH 1.5 because it's on Unreal 4 and can handle Windows 9. No time table for this, because nobody is forcing us to use Win 9.

Then, eventually, one or more of the "spiritual successors" would come out with their respective games, and if they use CoH stuff, they would deal with the new licensing company that would own the rights to CoH. They drop the "spiritual", because they would be the real successors to the game. But - Valiance, MWM, and I guess Heroes and Villains - they are each making their own game, I thought. Who's working on CoH 2.0? Or did I make an inferential leap that has no legs to land with?

I keep reading and I'm just overloaded, so I'm sorry if you've spelled it out in black and white and I just didn't get it.
I really hope CoH 2 would be part of this.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 01, 2014, 10:06:52 PM
For starters, for those who don't know.... I run APR. Nate and I have been in talks for a little while now, and I've got a pretty good handle on what the plan is. I'll try and answer some people's questions as best I can, So poor Nate isn't having to do everything.

CoH Issue 23 is planned to make a return, yes. However, the team will not have the ability to make ANY updates to it. No new content, no new costume pieces, no patching out bugs.

On windows 9, I have no information. Most likely there will be compatability issues with running something as old as CoH. Also, see above...No new content.

any inkling of a time frame? 2 to 6 months? etc?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 01, 2014, 10:07:34 PM
...as a City of Titans Kickstarter, this is just about the best possible news I could have hoped for...

As another Kickstarter supporter, I just wanted to say that this mirrors my thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: blacksly on September 01, 2014, 10:08:08 PM
Quote
The CoH IP would be spun to its own company, to handle licensing. This company would itself license the existing engine from NCSoft for the creation of a maintenance mode, using a binary copy of the i23 server.

The existing user database and characters are not part of this arrangement at this time, nor is the source code.

Is it possible to elaborate upon the code situation?
1: without the source code, is it possible to add new powers to the game (with or without new animations), or are the various databases hard-coded into the source code rather than maintained in an external database?
2: if it is possible to add new powers, does the studio intend to add future issues with new powers, powersets, etcetera, or is there no chance, or is it still up in the air depending on what tools are found that can be used to edit the databases?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on September 01, 2014, 10:08:54 PM
I am surprised :) (I take a nap and wake up to something great.) Keep up the great job.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 01, 2014, 10:09:54 PM
Amazing... I am so happy for this!  :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 01, 2014, 10:10:25 PM
Ok...since a couple of you are answering questions, yay!

Issue 23 - good. I can work with that. That means that ski chalet will still be open. Very, very good! Love to ski. (not in real life, I'd break my legs)

A migration to APR - did I get the right? First, CoH as we knew it would be up, live, only no character data. All starting from scratch. Better that than nothing. Then, we migrate to APR, which is like a CoH 1.5 because it's on Unreal 4 and can handle Windows 9. No time table for this, because nobody is forcing us to use Win 9.

Then, eventually, one or more of the "spiritual successors" would come out with their respective games, and if they use CoH stuff, they would deal with the new licensing company that would own the rights to CoH. They drop the "spiritual", because they would be the real successors to the game. But - Valiance, MWM, and I guess Heroes and Villains - they are each making their own game, I thought. Who's working on CoH 2.0? Or did I make an inferential leap that has no legs to land with?

I keep reading and I'm just overloaded, so I'm sorry if you've spelled it out in black and white and I just didn't get it.

This is how I read this, too
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Heliopause on September 01, 2014, 10:10:36 PM
I'm floored! I let out a vocal OMG in the grocery store when I just saw this.  :o  I don't understand the technical stuff but the prospect of CoX returning makes me giddy.  Impressive work folks.

This news is gonna spread like wildfire I think.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/30/leaderboard-which-dead-mmo-is-your-favorite/
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 10:10:49 PM
I only have one request for anything that supposed to take over the current CoX. Do not include i13 pvp and keep the pvp mechanism like pre i13 please. A situation where you try to make everyone win will never work, because there will always be FoTM, atleast the FoTMs in pre i13 and gameplay was vastly more enjoyable.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Darkfaith on September 01, 2014, 10:11:30 PM
This is fantastic news. Even if it flops in the end, I'm happy to see the effort that's being made. Thank you to everyone working on this!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Codewalker on September 01, 2014, 10:12:40 PM
I only have one request for anything that supposed to take over the current CoX. Do not include i13 pvp and keep the pvp mechanism like pre i13 please. A situation where you try to make everyone win will never work, because there will always be FoTM, atleast the FoTMs in pre i13 and gameplay was vastly more enjoyable.

Large parts of I13 PVP are hardcoded and cannot be removed without the source code.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Chanaluss on September 01, 2014, 10:13:03 PM
keep up the good work, you've given me and my friends reason to hope again
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ohioknight on September 01, 2014, 10:14:03 PM
Not quite for #2. Under the plan, the CoT build would be licensed to Atlas Park Revived to make CoH 1.5.
Same engine, different games. May have a shared user database and crossover opportunities, but that it up to MWM and APR.

So Downix, I'll add to the slightly confused... under the plan (assuming all goes unchanged) WHO is releasing/running CoH 23?  The new IP holding company itself? A player to be designated later?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sermon on September 01, 2014, 10:16:06 PM
I would guess that CoH 1.5 is once CoH is ported to UE4 and it is revived, in some sense, from maintenance mode.

It seems that "CoH 2" will have to be one of the other projects we are already anticipating, be it CoT, Heroes and Villains, etc.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FourSpeed on September 01, 2014, 10:16:28 PM
Not quite for #2. Under the plan, the CoT build would be licensed to Atlas Park Revived to make CoH 1.5.
Same engine, different games. May have a shared user database and crossover opportunities, but that it up to MWM and APR.
Ahhh, thanks for the clarification, downix.

Given that CoH 1.5 (et al) is still a significant ways down the road yet, the obvious question(s) I'd have
would regard COH-I23, as it's probably the piece that could be implemented soonest (presumably).

1> Do you have any information on when/if COH-I23 would be made available to you?

2> Given that #1 occurs, is there any eta on when you'd be putting a host in place for players to access?

3> Is there any shareable information regarding costs, packages, vet rewards etc.

4> Is there anything that the community can do to assist in any way with that?


Don't get me wrong - While I'm highly interested in CoT and future efforts, the #1 Clarion Call in here
has been "Get the game back" -- which to me, translates as a playable version of where we were when
the rug was yanked out. Based on your post, I guess that means COH-I23, so that's the focus of my questions.


Thanks and Regards,
4
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ohioknight on September 01, 2014, 10:16:49 PM
Large parts of I13 PVP are hardcoded and cannot be removed without the source code.

So Codewalker, what might this plan mean for certain unnamed other projects -- good news?  neutral? 
I just invite your general speculation  ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 10:19:03 PM
Large parts of I13 PVP are hardcoded and cannot be removed without the source code.

Not so much in the current CoX, for CoT, H&V, etc. I guess that's up the the individual directors of those projects. Just wanted to throw it out to use the events leading up to i13 pvp as a case study what not to do in order to not alienate a community base. Sorry I just reread my comment and wasn't clear on that :p
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nebularian on September 01, 2014, 10:19:47 PM
I'm not to concerned about the Windows 9 incompatibility thing, we have emulators for nearly every operating system ever created at our fingertips.

Not worried either...I will probably be running Windows 7 until 9 proves itself LOL
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: themamboman on September 01, 2014, 10:20:38 PM
So, why is it assumed that Windows 9 will be incompatible?  Do they drop support for ancient OpenGL?

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Klendarin on September 01, 2014, 10:20:53 PM
Wow, interesting news.  Thanks for all of your hard work and patience.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 01, 2014, 10:21:34 PM
Not worried either...I will probably be running Windows 7 until 9 proves itself LOL

Honestly the only reason I even run 7 is the audio mixer ^^;
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on September 01, 2014, 10:21:58 PM
question will Iron Wolf still give updates, or will that fall to Missing Worlds now?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Yoru-hime on September 01, 2014, 10:22:31 PM
Team APR (and Ironwolf),

Best of luck to you all. However this ends, your work has been an inspiration as to what fans are capable of when they work in a positive manner and try to make great things happen.

I am, of course, a bit disappointed in some of the limitations of what is available (source code and I24, in particular), but I'm sure it's not from lack of effort on your part.

I know we're a long way from the finish line, but here's hoping that we're all taking to the skies again sometime soon.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on September 01, 2014, 10:24:45 PM
I could actually see this working whereas other buy out attempts might not.

And perhaps the merchandising and licensing of the COX IP could lead to better things in the future. :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Black Wildfire on September 01, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
I just want to add my gratitude for everything that is being done. This is a lesson in patience for all of us. Thank you for giving us hope. Even if things don't work out the way we would like I am still grateful for the effort.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: themamboman on September 01, 2014, 10:25:18 PM
And details such as how we will gain access (subscription, micro-transactions, etc) haven't been released yet (or maybe even decided upon).

Can't wait for more details.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Des_Tructive on September 01, 2014, 10:26:08 PM
1.) Thank you.

2.) The implication fo what you're working on is just... MIND... BLOWN.

3.) Thank you.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nyghtshade on September 01, 2014, 10:26:54 PM
First, my thanks to you, Nate, and the Hail Mary team which has been working so hard on the negotiations with NCSoft.  Please know how very much we're behind you, and how much I for one appreciate everything that's been done so far, and all that is yet to come.

I noticed Tony V has posted this in at least one COH group on FB.  Is it all right to go ahead and share your announcement with the other CoH groups on FB?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 10:27:12 PM
question will Iron Wolf still give updates, or will that fall to Missing Worlds now?

MWM isn't officially involved, so updates wouldn't come from them. I don't have actual information on this, but I'd speculate that information would come from Nate or Ironwolf.

Aside from that, CoT updates would come from MWM, APR updates would come from me, and so on.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nebularian on September 01, 2014, 10:28:01 PM
I do have one concern...and I hope it is not taken in the wrong way.

Some one else pointed out that the focus of this effort/sub-forum is the return of COH.  The Project Zs have their own places.

My concern is about conflict of interest. Basically we are asking the Project Zs to support a competitor. (even if it IS COH).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on September 01, 2014, 10:28:47 PM
MWM isn't officially involved, so updates wouldn't come from them. I don't have actual information on this, but I'd speculate that information would come from Nate or Ironwolf.

Aside from that, CoT updates would come from MWM, APR updates would come from me, and so on.
nice :) thank you for clearing this up for me :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 10:28:54 PM
And details such as how we will gain access (subscription, micro-transactions, etc) haven't been released yet (or maybe even decided upon).

Can't wait for more details.

I don't think any of that has really been discussed yet. It's prolly very dependent on the terms of the purchase agreement with NCSoft.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Lava-Lad on September 01, 2014, 10:30:06 PM
I just want to add my gratitude for everything that is being done. This is a lesson in patience for all of us. Thank you for giving us hope. Even if things don't work out the way we would like I am still grateful for the effort.
This for me too.

I'm going to stop asking questions for the time being and let you all (Downix and co) release info as appropriate.  I'm just so happy that there are even talks with NCSoft to resolve this impasse that I just want to bask in the hope.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nadia Luma on September 01, 2014, 10:31:47 PM
I think NC Soft also deserves some Thanks. The hurt they hit us with far greater than any of our in game battles. I'm glad they have at least opened the door to somewhat make better the situation after all this time. It may not be sure thing yet but at least it's hope.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Arnabas on September 01, 2014, 10:32:58 PM
For starters, for those who don't know.... I run APR. Nate and I have been in talks for a little while now, and I've got a pretty good handle on what the plan is. I'll try and answer some people's questions as best I can, So poor Nate isn't having to do everything.

CoH Issue 23 is planned to make a return, yes. However, the team will not have the ability to make ANY updates to it. No new content, no new costume pieces, no patching out bugs.

On windows 9, I have no information. Most likely there will be compatability issues with running something as old as CoH. Also, see above...No new content.

Ok....

So correct me if I am wrong (or tell me if I am right), but this is my understanding (if everything works out):

--CoH comes back, frozen at issue 23. Nothing new to ever be added to it. Also, it will be gone again with the arrival of Windows 9, this time never to return.

--When the Coming Storm (Windows 9) arrives, players will have to choose one (or more) successor to continue playing. Each successor will take the IP and go off on their own, effectively as alternate universes that can (but may not) reference the original game. So CoH will die again, but live on in altered form. Analogy: Superman the comic is cancelled, but you can continue on with Christopher Reeve Superman, Brandon Routh Superman, Tom Welling Superman, Henry Cavill Superman, DCAU Superman, or some other iteration, as you prefer.

About right?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: erich on September 01, 2014, 10:33:08 PM
I think NC Soft also deserves some Thanks. The hurt they hit us with far greater than any of our in game battles. I'm glad they have at least opened the door to somewhat make better the situation after all this time. It may not be sure thing yet but at least it's hope.

Agree 100%. I'm very grateful they have been having these types of discussion to bring our game back to us.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dev7on on September 01, 2014, 10:33:34 PM
Why does NCsoft still want the other half of the IP rights to City of Heroes?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 10:33:41 PM
I think NC Soft also deserves some Thanks. The hurt they hit us with far greater than any of our in game battles. I'm glad they have at least opened the door to somewhat make better the situation after all this time. It may not be sure thing yet but at least it's hope.


The easiest thing for NCSoft to do is nothing. So if this pans out, they deserve a good amount of thanks.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 10:34:01 PM
I think NC Soft also deserves some Thanks. The hurt they hit us with far greater than any of our in game battles. I'm glad they have at least opened the door to somewhat make better the situation after all this time. It may not be sure thing yet but at least it's hope.

Don't want to sound off saying this, but NC Soft will get my thanks after I'm actually playing the game. My thanks currently is to everyone who organized getting this far
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Mistress Urd on September 01, 2014, 10:34:19 PM
Thanks for the update, will be pulling for this to happen and hopefully what the future plans hold.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fleur_uk on September 01, 2014, 10:35:15 PM
I'm purely speculating here, but the interpretation I have from downix's post (PLEASE correct me if I've
misinterpreted) is:

1>  *IF* they get that COH-I23 binary, that could be run in maintenance mode on pre Win-9
software environment and server(s). There's no character or account data, so I assume any players
would (by necessity) start from scratch. Nothing has been mentioned about pricing or vet rewards etc.

2> MWM - CoT would be able to be released as COH 1.5

3> Future ? ? ?


So, presuming the first IF becomes fact, I'd say "yes, we can get our game back", but for how long they
are willing to host it, and how long you want to keep your PC at Win 8(?) or earlier, and at what costs,
remain open questions.


Regards,
4

1.  Happy :D that seems fine as I have newish puter, but had to pay to have win. 7 on it instead of 8.....how does that makes sense, but I refuse to install anything until windows 9 proves worthy :)?  Character from scratch is way better than none at all :)

2.  ? Just want CoH at this point <3

3.  Hoping future will include a way to develop CoH further <3 (((hoping))

Fingers crossed and thanks for explanation for us untechies ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: rayvn on September 01, 2014, 10:35:25 PM
Thank you for all your work on this.  I want CoH to come back and I want CoT and the other games to all be successful.  This gives me a glimmer of hope but I also hope that you and your team have some good attorneys on your side to lock down the rights you do acquire as firmly as possible.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: silvers1 on September 01, 2014, 10:36:08 PM
The inability to make fixes kind of worries me - issues can occur due to windows updates or other changes to the client side.
Issues can also occur due to database...

If anything like this occurs, it could literally shut the entire game down.
Crying shame you couldn't get the I23 source.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ohioknight on September 01, 2014, 10:36:45 PM
OH and MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION OF ALL

What do we CALL the negotiating team  "Downix and friends"?  Want us to stay with "Team Hail Mary"?
(Mysterions doesn't quite seem appropriate anymore)

And what should we call Big Brother and the Holding Company? "New IP Company" seems kind-of clumsy

Typing is hard when you're drunk on Cognac
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: dpawtows on September 01, 2014, 10:37:47 PM

What do we CALL the negotiating team  "Downix and friends"?  Want us to stay with "Team Hail Mary"?
(Mysterions doesn't quite seem appropriate anymore)


Team Beard?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 01, 2014, 10:38:04 PM
Ok...since a couple of you are answering questions, yay!

Issue 23 - good. I can work with that. That means that ski chalet will still be open. Very, very good! Love to ski. (not in real life, I'd break my legs)

A migration to APR - did I get the right? First, CoH as we knew it would be up, live, only no character data. All starting from scratch. Better that than nothing. Then, we migrate to APR, which is like a CoH 1.5 because it's on Unreal 4 and can handle Windows 9. No time table for this, because nobody is forcing us to use Win 9.

Then, eventually, one or more of the "spiritual successors" would come out with their respective games, and if they use CoH stuff, they would deal with the new licensing company that would own the rights to CoH. They drop the "spiritual", because they would be the real successors to the game. But - Valiance, MWM, and I guess Heroes and Villains - they are each making their own game, I thought. Who's working on CoH 2.0? Or did I make an inferential leap that has no legs to land with?

I keep reading and I'm just overloaded, so I'm sorry if you've spelled it out in black and white and I just didn't get it.

This is what I got. 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: WolfSoul on September 01, 2014, 10:38:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RMoH55T-oI

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: BraveStar on September 01, 2014, 10:38:39 PM
Many, many thanks to the negotiation team and NCsoft!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: bugzee on September 01, 2014, 10:38:48 PM
The inability to make fixes kind of worries me - issues can occur due to windows updates or other changes to the client side.
Issues can also occur due to database...

If anything like this occurs, it could literally shut the entire game down.
Crying shame you couldn't get the I23 source.

Yes I think that without the source code, its just like reviving the game for a little while so you can say your final goodbyes... But I wonder if the source code is completely off the table, or is it just not part of the current talks?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fleur_uk on September 01, 2014, 10:40:56 PM
The inability to make fixes kind of worries me - issues can occur due to windows updates or other changes to the client side.
Issues can also occur due to database...

If anything like this occurs, it could literally shut the entire game down.
Crying shame you couldn't get the I23 source.

I remember reading somewhere that the community used to help with coding and stuff when we played CoH? Correct me if I am wrong.  Maybe when we finally get the game, and see what there is there are those who are much more cleverminded to sort/fix any faults in the code that would prevent implementing it? Or is it a problem that noone actually has the update, because it wasn't downloaded or patched into the game??  Sorry if that was really neanderthal. ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Black Gold on September 01, 2014, 10:41:06 PM
Ok....

So correct me if I am wrong (or tell me if I am right), but this is my understanding (if everything works out):

--CoH comes back, frozen at issue 23. Nothing new to ever be added to it. Also, it will be gone again with the arrival of Windows 9, this time never to return.

--When the Coming Storm (Windows 9) arrives, players will have to choose one (or more) successor to continue playing. Each successor will take the IP and go off on their own, effectively as alternate universes that can (but may not) reference the original game. So CoH will die again, but live on in altered form. Analogy: Superman the comic is cancelled, but you can continue on with Christopher Reeve Superman, Brandon Routh Superman, Tom Welling Superman, Henry Cavill Superman, DCAU Superman, or some other iteration, as you prefer.

About right?

This is basically how I interpreted it.  It's not so much getting CoH permanently back. but getting it licensed so that it can be cannibalized to make  the spiritual successors  "less spiritual" and more official by having the ability to directly reference some CoH properties? Unless I read that wrong.....
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FourSpeed on September 01, 2014, 10:41:11 PM
So, why is it assumed that Windows 9 will be incompatible?  Do they drop support for ancient OpenGL?

To a greater or lesser degree, every version of Windows has been incompatible with prior versions. That's
exactly why they have a "Compatibility Mode" built-in. That said, that mode has historically been pretty
spotty in the past, and when it is the end result is usually frequent BSODs. Not a good thing in a game.

Additionally, assuming the host server itself is not unix based, that would also imply that server would need
to be kept at an appropriate Windows level as they cannot recompile the game for the new environment.


Regards,
4
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: WolfSoul on September 01, 2014, 10:42:11 PM
COH comes back with I23, to be moved onto Unreal4 to both update AND get around whatever problems Windows 9
will cause. That's COH1.5

The successors, all of them, are to be considered COH2, as it were.


Ok....

So correct me if I am wrong (or tell me if I am right), but this is my understanding (if everything works out):

--CoH comes back, frozen at issue 23. Nothing new to ever be added to it. Also, it will be gone again with the arrival of Windows 9, this time never to return.

--When the Coming Storm (Windows 9) arrives, players will have to choose one (or more) successor to continue playing. Each successor will take the IP and go off on their own, effectively as alternate universes that can (but may not) reference the original game. So CoH will die again, but live on in altered form. Analogy: Superman the comic is cancelled, but you can continue on with Christopher Reeve Superman, Brandon Routh Superman, Tom Welling Superman, Henry Cavill Superman, DCAU Superman, or some other iteration, as you prefer.

About right?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Remidi on September 01, 2014, 10:43:46 PM
*scratches head*  I'm a bit cornfuzzled by all this, but for now I'll just say thanks for all the hard work, and you have my best wishes for success.  Everything else will shake out eventually.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 10:45:02 PM
The inability to make fixes kind of worries me - issues can occur due to windows updates or other changes to the client side.
Issues can also occur due to database...

If anything like this occurs, it could literally shut the entire game down.
Crying shame you couldn't get the I23 source.
Yes I think that without the source code, its just like reviving the game for a little while so you can say your final goodbyes... But I wonder if the source code is completely off the table, or is it just not part of the current talks?

I'm not directly involved in the talks with NCSoft, but from what I understand the source is completely off the table, and many of the tools required simply don't exist anymore.
This is where Revival comes in. The plan is kind of...to replace CoH with it. CoH 1.5/CoH 2 if you will. Same setting, same stories you've all known and loved. New engine, new updates, new stories for you to, hopefully, come to love.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 01, 2014, 10:45:18 PM
COH comes back with I23, to be moved onto Unreal4 to both update AND get around whatever problems Windows 9
will cause. That's COH1.5

The successors, all of them, are to be considered COH2, as it were.

I read it this way, too. Not an expert, but that was how I understood it, too.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Eskreema on September 01, 2014, 10:45:38 PM
I just wanted to say thank you and good luck, we're all counting on you. (Leslie Neilson)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 01, 2014, 10:46:09 PM
And details such as how we will gain access (subscription, micro-transactions, etc) haven't been released yet (or maybe even decided upon).

Can't wait for more details.

Please remember what Nate said, this is far from final and may never get that far: 

So where are we now?

Right now, still discussing terms, ideas, limits. The challenges we have been given we stepped up for and handled. Likely there will be discussions and adjustments right up until the moment the deal is signed. The whole thing may fall apart. For all we know, everything done so far has been nothing but a delaying tactic so they can say once again that they tried to work with the community to no avail. But until such time that becomes clear, we will continue forward in good faith.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 10:47:59 PM
I'm not directly involved in the talks with NCSoft, but from what I understand the source is completely off the table, and many of the tools required simply don't exist anymore.
This is where Revival comes in. The plan is kind of...to replace CoH with it. CoH 1.5/CoH 2 if you will. Same setting, same stories you've all known and loved. New engine, new updates, new stories for you to, hopefully, come to love.

This may be a stupid question, but when CoX 1.5 comes in, will the data be x-fered (toons, global, items, in, Sg, Sg Base, Etc) be also ported over from the new CoX under your control or will we need to restart everything again when CoX 1.5 come out? Either way in fine with both
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Arnabas on September 01, 2014, 10:48:12 PM
I guess what I am most curious about is whether any successor will have the same gameplay at all, or whether we'll be playing an entirely new and different game that just happens to be set in Paragon City, or even in some other city with characters saying ''Yeah, I used to live in Paragon, but I moved here recently. Glad I don't have to deal with Rikti anymore!''

Also, each game being CoH 2, means that there isn't really one official continuation, just various Elseworlds continuations.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 01, 2014, 10:49:15 PM
I guess what I am most curious about is whether any successor will have the same gameplay at all, or whether we'll be playing an entirely new and different game that just happens to be set in Paragon City, or even in some other city with characters saying ''Yeah, I used to live in Paragon, but I moved here recently. Glad I don't have to deal with Rikti anymore!''

It seems to me like the whole idea with CoH 1.5 is to basically have CoH live on in a more future-proofed way. Exactly CoH, just updatable, more features to AE, etc.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: erich on September 01, 2014, 10:49:25 PM
Please remember what Nate said, this is far from final and may never get that far: 

So where are we now?

Right now, still discussing terms, ideas, limits. The challenges we have been given we stepped up for and handled. Likely there will be discussions and adjustments right up until the moment the deal is signed. The whole thing may fall apart. For all we know, everything done so far has been nothing but a delaying tactic so they can say once again that they tried to work with the community to no avail. But until such time that becomes clear, we will continue forward in good faith.

Delay what? Saying no? That doesn't seem very rational to me at all. They're a corporation, they could have ended it at anytime. I highly doubt they have ANY reason to delay talks. What's the end game? What do they gain by delaying?

It's just best to not speculate on it anymore and take it as it is. Good news.

Just my opinion on it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sermon on September 01, 2014, 10:50:21 PM
This may be a stupid question, but when CoX 1.5 comes in, will the data be x-fered (toons, global, items, in, Sg, Sg Base, Etc) be also ported over from the new CoX under your control or will we need to restart everything again when CoX 1.5 come out? Either way in fine with both

I would guess that they will make a good faith effort to migrate everything from CoX 1 to 1.5.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 10:50:36 PM
This may be a stupid question, but when CoX 1.5 comes in, will the data be x-fered (toons, global, items, in, Sg, Sg Base, Etc) be also ported over from the new CoX under your control or will we need to restart everything again when CoX 1.5 come out? Either way in fine with both

That's something I can't really answer yet, as I don't have an answer myself. For the sake of not having any broken hearts, I'd expect it to be a fresh start.
I do plan on looking into it, however there are alot of technical issues to work around.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 10:51:26 PM
I would guess that they will make a good faith effort to migrate everything from CoX 1 to 1.5.

This, basically.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 10:51:41 PM
That's something I can't really answer yet, as I don't have an answer myself. For the sake of not having any broken hearts, I'd expect it to be a fresh start.
I do plan on looking into it, however there are alot of technical issues to work around.

Understood thanks for the reply
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: artbunker on September 01, 2014, 10:54:06 PM
To all parties involved in this process, thank you very much . See you guys in Paragon  :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 01, 2014, 10:54:54 PM
What group would be actually running the CoH 1 to 1.5 servers?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: bugzee on September 01, 2014, 10:55:21 PM
It seems to me like the whole idea with CoH 1.5 is to basically have CoH live on in a more future-proofed way. Exactly CoH, just updatable, more features to AE, etc.

Rereading Nate's post gave me that impression too. I think the big thing is that CoH 1.5 devs will have the right to recreate the game that we love, but on a new engine. And that the other spiritual successors no longer have to be scared of getting the pants sued off of them for resembling CoX. And that the i23 game will live on, but for how long?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Eskreema on September 01, 2014, 10:56:37 PM
Lol, so basically in Arcana's vision the pitching off of dimentions is made by the Rularuu/"spiritual" successors, the portal technology is unreal4, and the unsuitable passage of time is Microsoft/ascended hami.... How trite.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dal on September 01, 2014, 10:59:15 PM
Thank you so much for this.  :D I'm really hopeful now.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: lintboy on September 01, 2014, 10:59:23 PM
OK, but how does this affect us Mac users? Will I23 run on OSX Mavericks (10.9.x) or Yosemite (10.10.x)?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 11:00:04 PM
OK, but how does this affect us Mac users? Will I23 run on OSX Mavericks (10.9.x) or Yosemite (10.10.x)?

Whatever the current I23 Mac client runs on.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 01, 2014, 11:00:36 PM
Rereading Nate's post gave me that impression too. I think the big thing is that CoH 1.5 devs will have the right to recreate the game that we love, but on a new engine. And that the other spiritual successors no longer have to be scared of getting the pants sued off of them for resembling CoX. And that the i23 game will live on, but for how long?

Yes, this is what I read, too
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 01, 2014, 11:01:21 PM
One thing I have to say Irish_Girl is that you've been awesome answering everyone's questions, and imagining your polite tone coming from your avatar with each post has been a delight :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dalghryn on September 01, 2014, 11:01:50 PM
This really looks like a very short-term existence for CoH.  It can't be fixed or updated and will likely die again fairly soon if Windows 9 and beyond makes its coding incompatible.  If that's accurate, I may not set myself for another fall and just wait until COT etc.

That said, the big plus I see is the "spiritual successors'" being able to use COH from a story-telling perspective.  That would be tremendous.  I haven't seen anything about how that would affect their efforts to date, however.  They've put a tremendous amount of time into world-building and character creation in hopes of creating that spiritual successor, so now do they throw all that out and start from scratch to recreate CoH (2)?  Do they try to add elements of CoH to CoT/Valiance/H&V to make the worlds one (and potentially dilute both), or what?

I also balk at the word "licensing" as it was used a couple of time.  Licenses can always expire; contracts can be broken.  Will NCSoft now have some kind of hold or say in the successors if they choose to incorporate aspects of CoH into their games?

For now, I'm going to stick with Plan "A" and just wait patiently for the successors.  If NCSoft has any involvement in the post-revival CoH, I'm just not sure I'll be able to trust it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dal on September 01, 2014, 11:02:35 PM
This may be a stupid question, but when CoX 1.5 comes in, will the data be x-fered (toons, global, items, in, Sg, Sg Base, Etc) be also ported over from the new CoX under your control or will we need to restart everything again when CoX 1.5 come out? Either way in fine with both
I don't think they can guarantee anything as of now. There is a good chance some data wouldn't be compatible, I think.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Remaugen on September 01, 2014, 11:03:20 PM
http://apr.pc-logix.com/  really suffers from a lack of recent updates, but perhaps soon they will have something wonderful to post!


We're nearly there!    ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 01, 2014, 11:03:44 PM
What group would be actually running the CoH 1 to 1.5 servers?
Depends on negotiations. My hope is to self-host by the holding company.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 01, 2014, 11:05:01 PM
Depends on negotiations. My hope is to self-host by the holding company.

Thanks again for the info : )
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: gypsyav on September 01, 2014, 11:05:28 PM
Thanks for the efforts everyone is putting in for this. I'm really happy to hear about the APR project continuing. While I give kudos to the successor projects my heart is with the original game and none of the successor projects really appealed to me.

If this deal goes through it will be nice to fly through the air of Paragon again.

Edited: Spelling
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MattTreck on September 01, 2014, 11:06:25 PM
First of all I would like to thank your entire team and everyone involved. I would also like to thank everyone at NCSoft for being so understanding and willing to cooperate with the team attempting to purchase the game.

Now I have a comment and I seriously do not want anyone to get upset, because I am incredibly excited at the prospect of us getting our game back. But there is something that seriously bothers me.

Based upon what I have read, (if) we get our game back, it stays at Issue 23. Period. No updates at all. No fixes for client bugs, nadda, zit. When Windows 9 is released, and it (maybe) doesn't work. We're done, we can not play anymore (if we upgrade to Win 9 of course.). This is incredibly disturbing to me as it essentially means that the game is being revived to (in my eyes) die (probably) within a year, as we expect Windows 9 to come Spring of next year.

Now there is obviously another way to look at this, the game is revived temporarily while we move over to whatever you would like to call CoT+Atlas Park Revival, CoH 1.5 as it is being referred to. That's great and I seriously look forward to that, and will most likely play it. I've been an avid supporter of CoT since the beginning. Here is my concern.

We now have three games. We have CoH, then we have CoT, then we have CoT plus Atlas Revival. We have City of Heroes which isn't getting any new players because of guaranteed no content updates, added on to the lack of support on newer operating systems.

I personally am just not convinced that this is going to work out well. I can't fully express why but I am uneasy about playing the game for a year then going through the same stuff we went through exactly 2 years ago. I am not convinced that any port to UE4 will still feel like City of Heroes. It might, and perhaps the different games that spawn will be even better than City of Heroes. But I do not think it will be City of Heroes.

I am sorry if what I have typed is somewhat vague, and please understand I am not attempting to spark an arguement or insult anyone working on any of these projects. I am extremely happy and grateful at what our community has accomplished in the past two years and will never give up on it. I will play City of Titans, whatever City of Titans + Atlas Revival comes to, if it does, and I will of course play City of Heroes shall it be re-opened. I will give all of them my support.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 01, 2014, 11:07:01 PM
It seems to me like the whole idea with CoH 1.5 is to basically have CoH live on in a more future-proofed way. Exactly CoH, just updatable, more features to AE, etc.

You'll have to bear in mind that the system would still be an approximation of the existing CoH.  It can't/won't be exact. This isn't a good or a bad thing, but it *will* be a thing.

That said, it will be a thing that will last longer and will be able to grow.

For this reason, best effort on the migration most likely will be limited to Characters and Costumes.  It's going to be a long while before anyone can give you anything other than a solid "We're gonna try".
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 01, 2014, 11:07:08 PM
any idea if COX maint will be able to run holiday events? possibly?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blackstar5 on September 01, 2014, 11:08:04 PM
O.k. I'll hold off my nerdgasm for now, everything looks good( not as good as I had hoped but it's still not pancaked so)
I thank you for your efforts and am hopeful that NCsoft does sell the game.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Optimus Dex on September 01, 2014, 11:09:31 PM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 01, 2014, 11:10:01 PM
OK, but how does this affect us Mac users? Will I23 run on OSX Mavericks (10.9.x) or Yosemite (10.10.x)?

As they have stated there is no source code for CoH nor the ability to patch, add anything or make any changes, let's hope I23 runs on your Macs as-is.  Otherwise, do you have an older Mac that used to run CoH?

Thanks so much, Irish Girl, for even attempting to salvage CoH.  Who exactly will be reverse-engineering it and  running it, and do they have any sort of time frame of how long that will take?

The person who brought up the point about any potential bugs or clashes with machines that have gotten new updates (even Windows 7 updates quite regularly) potentially causing CoH to crash brought up some interesting thoughts.  I guess I would rather know up front that CoH may not be running reliably for that long if at all, and that no modifications would ever be able to be made to it.  This sounds more a case of licensing the IP for new games based on CoH than anything.  And Nate did mention in his initial post in this thread that the deal could all fall apart.  For me, my biggest hope was to play CoH again, and it does bother me that all the source code is now gone and the tools used are gone now as well.  I don't think NCSoft had any plans to sell CoH to anyone.  I hope they are changing their minds now, and not just hoping we eventually give up and fade away.  I'm cautiously optimistic and I'm realistic too.  I don't think CoH running as we knew it is going to be very long-term, if it can even be reverse-engineered in time to be of any use even for a short-term thing (not criticizing!  I can't do it!  Glad it's not reliant upon me!   :P  so anything's better than nothing!).

I hope multiple backups of this CoH I23 server image are made and stored so that if the one players are using becomes borked somehow through database corruption or what have you, they can put another backup up and not be up the creek permanently.  Also, I hope reliable character progress can be backed up on a regular basis, not to mention reused in the event of said corruption bringing down the server.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 01, 2014, 11:11:08 PM
As they have stated there is no source code for CoH nor the ability to patch, add anything or make any changes, let's hope I23 runs on your Macs as-is.  Otherwise, do you have an older Mac that used to run CoH?

My first thought for this is that it may be worth it to use bootcamp to run Windows XP/7 if your mac can't just play CoX out of the box.

You'll have to bear in mind that the system would still be an approximation of the existing CoH.  It can't/won't be exact. This isn't a good or a bad thing, but it *will* be a thing.

That said, it will be a thing that will last longer and will be able to grow.

For this reason, best effort on the migration most likely will be limited to Characters and Costumes.  It's going to be a long while before anyone can give you anything other than a solid "We're gonna try".

I think of it a lot like the various mega man fangames people have created from scratch with SDL.

They'll have the original to play around with, actively, in order to test it and make it as percievably close as possible.

There might be a hole here or there - and Mega Man vs CoH is like a toaster versus a clockwork in terms of complexity... but I believe it's possible :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 11:12:51 PM
One thing I have to say Irish_Girl is that you've been awesome answering everyone's questions, and imagining your polite tone coming from your avatar with each post has been a delight :)

Lmao! Thanks. Yeah, I'm going to be picturing myself very politely screaming in everyones faces all day now! :P
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: artbunker on September 01, 2014, 11:14:53 PM
I know the details arent final yet, but  I have to be the downer here.

1.How much will it cost for subscribers to get on  the revived COH ?

2. Will it be monthly plans agian or some one time fee?

3.If the game is free to play again, will subscribers at least get something special for paying month after month again until the shift over to REVIVAL? I know incarnate content is the reward and all, but $15 a month for a relaunched 2003 game is gonna be kinda hard to sell to folks without incentives .

I'll be there of course and your plan for the game sounds great overall. I just am curious as to the three questions I asked thats all
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 01, 2014, 11:18:25 PM
There might be a hole here or there - and Mega Man vs CoH is like a toaster versus a clockwork in terms of complexity... but I believe it's possible :)

It's really hard to be certain. most of  reports I've had on the game part of the engine has not been what I would call kindly spoken of.  That said, the community has a lot of collected data that can be examined.  Even with that and careful study, the number of variables are such that I have to expect that it will be "mostly" alike and hopefully that will be adequate for everyone.  The question becomes one of what is a better use of time?  Rebuilding Paragon and Co in another mechanics engine ( H&V, CoT, etc ) or doing the best to emulate CoH in a new codebase.

I don't envy the decision makers there.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Wyrm on September 01, 2014, 11:19:52 PM
Sincere thanks to everyone involved in working to make this happen.  You've truly gone above and beyond.  My thanks also to NCSoft for willing to come to the table and discuss the possibility of re-opening CoH and providing options for future growth of the IP.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: lapucelle on September 01, 2014, 11:22:34 PM
It's been a long, long road from the forming of TFHM till now.

I'd like to thank everyone involved, from IronWolf to Rae to Nate. I like to think I helped here and there, as well.

Irish, there's a lot of work to do, but I can't wait to see you guys do it.

It's just such a relief to finally be able to talk about it.

- Warcabbit
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Burnt Toast on September 01, 2014, 11:23:11 PM
I THINK I have this right:


CoHi23 comes back as is...and in the meantime they will work on putting CoH1.5 onto Unreal 4. Once CoH1.5 is ready to go they will TRY to port over all our data from CoHi23. Once we are in CoH 1.5 then they can add stuff to it....


That is how I am understanding it. so basically CoHi23...for about a year-ish while they make CoH1.5. So CoH will still be around even after Windows 9 since CoH1.5 can run on Windows 9.


So for example.. I run Windows 7...and if I decide to upgrade to Windows 9... I need to wait for CoH1.5 to come out.




Am I right?? close??
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ohioknight on September 01, 2014, 11:23:37 PM
Depends on negotiations. My hope is to self-host by the holding company.

Thanks for the clarification, Downix {and again, just a general "THANK YOU"}

I guess for now its "The Holding Company"

(how about WHIP for We have IP)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 01, 2014, 11:24:19 PM
It's really hard to be certain. most of  reports I've had on the game part of the engine has not been what I would call kindly spoken of.  That said, the community has a lot of collected data that can be examined.  Even with that and careful study, the number of variables are such that I have to expect that it will be "mostly" alike and hopefully that will be adequate for everyone.  The question becomes one of what is a better use of time?  Rebuilding Paragon and Co in another mechanics engine ( H&V, CoT, etc ) or doing the best to emulate CoH in a new codebase.

I don't envy the decision makers there.

If I had it my way, I'd be fine with indefinite maintenance - and that's honestly something I wish was on the table. One of those ways its just enough 'off' may be something that makes it a whole lot lesser in some way... but hope springs eternal, and I have faith that with enough time and effort, something fun can come out of all of this :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 11:25:05 PM
Thanks so much, Irish Girl, for even attempting to salvage CoH.  Who exactly will be reverse-engineering it and  running it, and do they have any sort of time frame of how long that will take?

Right now it's pretty much just me working on it, and unfortunately I'm spending the next week packing and cleaning to move. (I should be packing right now, actually. Heh)
I don't have a time frame, I wish I did. It kind of depends on if it stays just me, or if...and how many...people join the project.
Really, I think that's going to depend on talks between myself and the licensing company that (hopefully) picks up the license.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Mentalshock on September 01, 2014, 11:26:22 PM
It's been a long, long road from the forming of TFHM till now.

I'd like to thank everyone involved, from IronWolf to Rae to Nate. I like to think I helped here and there, as well.

Irish, there's a lot of work to do, but I can't wait to see you guys do it.

It's just such a relief to finally be able to talk about it.

- Warcabbit

  No kidding.   Considering it was my initial idea that triggered VV and the others to make the inital attempt, to see someone else pick up the ball and run with it as far as it will go makes me proud.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ohioknight on September 01, 2014, 11:26:44 PM
Lmao! Thanks. Yeah, I'm going to be picturing myself very politely screaming in everyones faces all day now! :P

Hey Irish Girl, thanks to you too for your part in this.

If you rebuild AE functionality, may I suggest that when you rebuild Base Builder you use a variant of AE rather than re-create as it was originally developed??? -- just a thought/suggestion (I hope you have the opportunity for it to be a problem)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: SypherVendetta on September 01, 2014, 11:28:09 PM
I was one of those naysayers that believed coh was dead, i believed at the time that nothing would happen and was frustrated with people who followed this ideal that it could be revived, looking back on my decision to be that way well i hate to admit it but maybe i was wrong, and i applaud everyone's faith and hope in the revival of city of heroes.

That being said i have a question, it was my understanding that even 2 years ago NCSoft were looking to make COH2 anyway, the acquisition of Unreal Engine 4 and the unnamed titles they had in the pipeline suggested this, Matt Miller referenced this in his youtube video about buying the game when they knew months in advance which prompted them to be asked by NCSoft to make COH2 but that quickly fell on it's head once the shutdown was confirmed outright, can you confirm if there was any mention of this at all?

I made a facebook post on the coh survivors page (before being perma banned) about the proof i had that this is what they were doing, i know it won't happen now, but maybe getting funding approval from NCSoft to help the revival team may be a good option in the long run and could be the best move for everyone, but my main concern is that will make it 4 super hero online games, some of us work, some of us don't have the time to log in to all of them including games we currently play now, will there be some kind of integration between the 4 if all of this goes the way we want it to?

An idea if you do see this a business venture is that each time you log in to a game you get a boost on your account for the next game to use for leveling then once you log in to game b you get a double boost for game B and so forth, you catch my drift? that could be a potential time shaver for people who are paying gold customers or even F2P if you wanted and are too busy to play all of them, it gives them the incentive to play them then.

Thanks again Nate and everyone else for their hard work, if you're ever in cardiff wales, i will personally buy you a beer  8)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 01, 2014, 11:29:07 PM
If you rebuild AE functionality, may I suggest that when you rebuild Base Builder you use a variant of AE rather than re-create as it was originally developed??? -- just a thought/suggestion (I hope you have the opportunity for it to be a problem)

You mean you don't love stacking gray counters? :(

(https://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y287/kistulot/SolidWall_zps3a087e5f.png)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: themamboman on September 01, 2014, 11:30:40 PM
Ok....

--CoH comes back, frozen at issue 23. Nothing new to ever be added to it. Also, it will be gone again with the arrival of Windows 9, this time never to return.

--When the Coming Storm (Windows 9) arrives, players will have to choose one (or more) successor to continue playing. Each successor will take the IP and go off on their own, effectively as alternate universes that can (but may not) reference the original game. So CoH will die again, but live on in altered form. Analogy: Superman the comic is cancelled, but you can continue on with Christopher Reeve Superman, Brandon Routh Superman, Tom Welling Superman, Henry Cavill Superman, DCAU Superman, or some other iteration, as you prefer.

About right?

Highly unlikely that they'd tell the players to upgrade the day Win9 is released.  That would be extremely uncool.  However, depending on the state of the CoH1.5, it may, in fact, cause many players to avoid the upgrade (or keep an older machine around).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 01, 2014, 11:30:59 PM
You mean you don't love stacking gray counters? :(

(https://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y287/kistulot/SolidWall_zps3a087e5f.png)

For some reason I forgot what the number of max pieces you are allow to have in a SG base before it crashes
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 01, 2014, 11:32:16 PM
For some reason I forgot what the number of max pieces you are allow to have in a SG base before it crashes

It is insanely high. I did a lot with my small little one-room-and-a-secret-alcove (mostly just for IO storage because I was saving purps for my PB)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 01, 2014, 11:32:50 PM
CoHi23 comes back as is...and in the meantime they will work on putting CoH1.5 onto Unreal 4. Once CoH1.5 is ready to go they will TRY to port over all our data from CoHi23. Once we are in CoH 1.5 then they can add stuff to it....

I would expect that CoHi23 will live as long as we can rationally keep it up. None of the conversations I have been in have suggested anything resembling a full cutover.  That said, we all have to realisticly expect that CoHi23 is on life support.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blackshear on September 01, 2014, 11:34:15 PM
Well, I will stick to my previous strategy:  Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, wait patiently.  Ironwolf did a good job reporting what he could of the situation in a way that kept my expectations realistic.  His posts were so informative that Downix's post contained no bombshells at all for me.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I won't give up hope even if this effort fails.  CoH will continue to devalue the longer it remains inactive, and NCSoft's personnel will change over time.  I think sooner or later NCSoft will be willing to let the property go.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Risha on September 01, 2014, 11:35:40 PM
Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Thank you, Nate and team.  Thank you Irish Girl.  Thank you Ironwolf.

If I had it my way, I'd be fine with indefinite maintenance - and that's honestly something I wish was on the table. One of those ways its just enough 'off' may be something that makes it a whole lot lesser in some way... but hope springs eternal, and I have faith that with enough time and effort, something fun can come out of all of this :)

Well, I just took an XP computer offline but kept for some other old programs.  I would probably be there for CoX I23 in maintenance mode forever, as well as subscribing to new game(s), until the new games won me over.   I understand that as an old and cranky program it might break, and, as someone said, having backups would be good (I am not a tech).

Thank you
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 11:35:53 PM
Hey Irish Girl, thanks to you too for your part in this.

If you rebuild AE functionality, may I suggest that when you rebuild Base Builder you use a variant of AE rather than re-create as it was originally developed??? -- just a thought/suggestion (I hope you have the opportunity for it to be a problem)

There are some really cool ideas floating around for A.E. and Bases, but those are both beasts that will be tackled much later on. They might not even be present in an initial release.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 11:36:00 PM
I know the details arent final yet, but  I have to be the downer here.

1.How much will it cost for subscribers to get on  the revived COH ?

2. Will it be monthly plans agian or some one time fee?

3.If the game is free to play again, will subscribers at least get something special for paying month after month again until the shift over to REVIVAL? I know incarnate content is the reward and all, but $15 a month for a relaunched 2003 game is gonna be kinda hard to sell to folks without incentives .

I'll be there of course and your plan for the game sounds great overall. I just am curious as to the three questions I asked thats all

Unfortunately, I think it's way to early for there to be answers to these questions.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 01, 2014, 11:39:20 PM
Rebuilding AE, hmmm, my suggestions.  Allow for map designing.  Really.  Alot of the warehouses and the office maps, sewer maps to were all very linear, i'd love to see people including z axis and more interesting non-linear map design.  Non linear map design is the pre-requisite in many ways to non-linear multiple choice gameplay to, in many ways.  Imagine being presented with a multiple choice scenario, where the choice you make isn't in the dialogue, but in what pathway you chose to do simply from moving down that pathway know?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 01, 2014, 11:41:00 PM
I would expect that CoHi23 will live as long as we can rationally keep it up. None of the conversations I have been in have suggested anything resembling a full cutover.  That said, we all have to realisticly expect that CoHi23 is on life support.

The hope is to make it so that when Revival launches people don't look at it and go "Ugh, since I23 doesn't work well anymore I GUESS I'll go play that P.O.S." and instead go "Hey! It's City of Heroes, but with new and awesome stuff!"
If it's not home, I haven't done my job well enough.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on September 01, 2014, 11:47:29 PM
The whole Windows 9 thing is confusing me... are you saying that when Windows 9 hits... CoH Issue 23... won't work??
Can someone dumb it down for me?
CoH was originally released when Windows 98 was not entirely off the market yet. No software exists on its' own - and the problem here is it's not just old, it's built for old supporting packages. After a while backwards compatibility is dropped - or outright breaks due to other changes, and nobody gets around to fixing it.
The "maintenance mode only" deal means that they can't patch any issues that may appear when running the game in Win 9.
Thanks Nate, I am grateful for the efforts. Is source code access completely off the table? This "holding company", they are the ones to basically port the existing i23 binary to a new updated engine? Or did I not understand what you posted..?
If source is off the table, so is porting the game. APR would not be a "port" but a recreation of the game from scratch using completely different engine and tools.
Is it possible to elaborate upon the code situation?
1: without the source code, is it possible to add new powers to the game (with or without new animations), or are the various databases hard-coded into the source code rather than maintained in an external database?
2: if it is possible to add new powers, does the studio intend to add future issues with new powers, powersets, etcetera, or is there no chance, or is it still up in the air depending on what tools are found that can be used to edit the databases?
Without source code, nothing can be added. Whether powers can be modified (balance etc) depends on how much of the numbers and power mechanics are hardcoded into the server.
Here's my question [rhetorical only at this point]: if we get the game back, are we going to be able to use the game version we have DLed on our PC, the original one I mean? Or would we have to buy and install a new one?
Is the old version so tied to our original accounts that we could not use it? I would happily buy a new copy, I'm just curious
From what I understand (and I might be wrong), it's just a matter of pointing the client to a new authentication server. This can be done without the need for anything but a specially made shortcut.
So, why is it assumed that Windows 9 will be incompatible?  Do they drop support for ancient OpenGL?
It's not assumed, but if it turns out to be so, there won't be any way to patch the game.
I remember reading somewhere that the community used to help with coding and stuff when we played CoH? Correct me if I am wrong.  Maybe when we finally get the game, and see what there is there are those who are much more cleverminded to sort/fix any faults in the code that would prevent implementing it? Or is it a problem that noone actually has the update, because it wasn't downloaded or patched into the game??  Sorry if that was really neanderthal. ;)
Reasonably sure that either you misread something, or the parties involved are under NDAs regarding the source code. TFHM would have a running copy of a server, but not the source code. Thus, no fixes, ever.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Xenos on September 01, 2014, 11:49:16 PM
Thank you Nate (et al) for the update and your efforts. And thank you giving us hope that CoH might return to life.

I know there will be time for questions later, but as you mention Windows 9, I am wondering if any consideration been given to the Mac version of COH? I fully realize that it represents an additional layer in what I am sure is a complex deal, but with a growing base of Mac users, it might be something worth considering. If its too complicated, no biggie, but if the Transgaming Mac client could be part of the deal it might be a nice asset.

In any case, best of luck.  :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: TECHWON on September 01, 2014, 11:50:37 PM
COH Forever
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 01, 2014, 11:52:46 PM
I lived and worked in Japan for many years, and while obviously not identical there are a great many similarities in the business culture's of Japan and Korea.  Sounds like the Hail Mary team did just the right thing in their approach and its a shame that earlier efforts had not followed a similar tact.  It's clear that this isnt yet a done deal and from my experience in East Asia its very possible that this deal could stay in limbo for a while and then a polite "no thank you" issued.  So Im prepared for that, and I think everyone else should be as well.

But, Ive also got my CC ready for whatever account creation with whatever holding company turns up with CoH i23 servers!

Thanks to the team for making this effort, truly in the spirit of heroes.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on September 01, 2014, 11:54:38 PM
There are some really cool ideas floating around for A.E. and Bases, but those are both beasts that will be tackled much later on. They might not even be present in an initial release.
could that also be for account based holdings like in Co?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blackshear on September 01, 2014, 11:56:56 PM
There are some really cool ideas floating around for A.E. and Bases, but those are both beasts that will be tackled much later on. They might not even be present in an initial release.

So long as I can reupload my saved AE mishes once it is relaunched.  AE was important for roleplayers because it gave us the ability to create actual content for our stories.  Hidden amongst all the farms there was some great RP-related content on AE!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: JKPhage on September 01, 2014, 11:58:32 PM
All I can say is that you guys continue to amaze me. I can't say thank you enough for all that you do. Keep up the good work, and know that we're all pulling for you to make it work somehow. We have faith that you will!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Rubberlad on September 01, 2014, 11:59:53 PM
Not surprised but I hope it works out. Good luck!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nalerenn on September 02, 2014, 12:01:08 AM
I have no words for how happy this news made me. Or how excited.

Back when I played City of Heroes in the early years of the EU community, I was in the latter years of high school, but I had thought 'Man, I would love to get a job working on this game'. I'd even say that it was thanks to City of Heroes that I decided to go into college to study games design. City of Heroes sadly was shut down during my college year and since then, numerous issues got in the way of continuing my studies. But I didn't quit, I decided to work on things on the side in the meantime. I even messaged Ironwolf and sent him details to forward to the team. Knowing now it was MWM? Blows my mind and reignites that dream from ten years ago.

Nate, and everyone at MWM and those not who are working on this deal, there are no words adequate for the thanks I have for your work here. That's not an exagguration, I am honestly at a loss for words (despite the wordy post, natch). So what I say next, know that what I mean is orders of magnitude greater, even if we still are at a stage where the deal might not happen.

Thank you.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 02, 2014, 12:05:39 AM
For people worrying about "how long can a CoH 1.0 implementation last".

As long as they can keep the servers stable, honestly, it's almost indefinitely.

There is, currently, NOTHING in the Win9 pipeline that looks to affect anything CoH could do AT ALL.

The biggest hurdle will be building a working game loader/patcher, as a certain amount of the game is primarily client-side stuff that CAN be accessed/worked with/fixed at will.  Just so long as the server and client agree on the acceptable version number.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Beltor on September 02, 2014, 12:06:00 AM
Forum Stalker checking in. I chose to stay until the end. Glad to say that may be a long way to go.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hagis on September 02, 2014, 12:07:01 AM
/em salute

Long time player here. (Since just before Issue 4.) Posted a bit here and there on the game forums back in the day. Got my wife into CoH, and watched her go from being burned-out on the world's largest fantasy-themed MMO to someone who cackled with unfettered joy every time her sparkle fairy-based electric/electric/electric blaster dropped a world of hurt on the baddies. Then the game got shut down and we were in shock....and then we found out she was pregnant, and our gaming hobby got shoved aside as more important things took precedence.

Fast forward two years (to the day!) that we found out CoH was shutting down, and we're both trying to figure out if it'll be possible for our little one to join us in Paragon someday.

As a gamer and a fan, I am happy that there's a chance to get the game back. As a father, I remember the times I played on PUGs where others were playing with their kids, and I remember how most people were cool with that. Maybe it meant slowing things down for a mission or two, but the majority of folks were okay with that. From where I sit, you can't put a price on that. My wife and I mourned the loss of the game, but it was the community that we truly and deeply missed.

And now, I can only sit back in humble amazement and watch what this community has done. Not one, not two, but three successor games......plus a continuation in the Atlas Park Revival Project.....youtube videos galore (can't wait to see what Samuraiko puts together if this works out)....

Please allow me to add my and my wife's thank-yous to the chorus. Consider our expectations managed, our excitement tempered, and our gratitude unbending.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: lapucelle on September 02, 2014, 12:08:36 AM
Step by step, day by day. The deal isn't signed yet. But you guys deserved to know where we stand, and you'll be there with us every step of the way.


Be happy for what we got today, but there's still a lot of steps between now and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGButr9F8eY

- Warcabbit
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Achilles6 on September 02, 2014, 12:12:41 AM
so...still in a holding pattern. gotcha.  :o
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: blacksly on September 02, 2014, 12:16:04 AM
Without source code, nothing can be added. Whether powers can be modified (balance etc) depends on how much of the numbers and power mechanics are hardcoded into the server.

Do you have a definite source for this belief?
If the database with power information is external to the source code (and it makes sense that, just as map and sound files are external, good programmers would keep a database external to the executing code), then clearly it would be possible to add to that database, if the database format can be figured out. Since it was once figured out in reading the data (as we can see in Mid's and in the powers data here on Titan), we can clearly add more powers (and probably powersets) to the database.

Now comes a less certain question, and it is this: once the studio hacks the database format, and adds in a new powerset and powers for it, what happens? Is the executable code written so that it will read all the way to the end of the database, regardless of how many powersets it may contain, and display all of those powersets as appropriate? Or is it hard-coded to know that a Blaster character has access to exactly X primary powersets, and therefore will not read X+1 powersets for Blasters, even if a new Blast set is created?

So the real question, I think, is whether the code for reading the powers database allows for an extendable database, or whether it has a fixed size. I have a strong belief that it will be possible to hack the database and add new powers... that is not such a difficult task, and I think it's been at least partially done before (the reading part, but writing should follow from it). But I have no information on whether the code will accept a database that is modified in size, or not, and be able to display it in the game in usable format. It may read a new powerset into memory, but not show it as an available powerset at character generation, for example.

Do you have more information regarding the extensibility of the powers database than I do (which means, any at all)?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 12:17:01 AM
Congrats to all involved, and thank you. Regardless of what comes, thank you for continuing to try.

With that said, one of the things about this info that has me intrigued is the possibility of having multiple games set in the same City of Heroes continuity. Something that has long been a dream of mine in MMO terms is to have some kind of "cross world" continuity- ideally, the same game engine, but with different servers emulating different cities, worlds, and/or genres but by which you could 'port your character from one to the other.

Now, that doesn't sound exactly like what might be happening here, but there still is that possibility in terms of continuity of story that could be a chance for something very revolutionary in MMO gaming. In comic terms, it would be like having a server for Marvel's New York City based heroes, a server for their Los Angeles based heroes, etc. You could have both the East and West Coast Avengers active at the same time! Sure, since these current games seem to be using their own engines and things, you couldn't just have your main show up on the other system, but depending on how well MWM, Valiance, APR, and H&V play together, they could still theoretically design storylines that reference one another, keep continuities interwoven, while still playing with the CoH sandbox. It really could be something unlike anything any other MMO or MMOs have attempted (at least, to my knowledge).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ThePhlebotomist on September 02, 2014, 12:17:56 AM
Thank you so much for working to bring back City of Heroes.

I hope as the relationship develops over time, I24 and someday the source code can be included in the partnership.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: worldshaking00 on September 02, 2014, 12:24:21 AM
Thanks for letting us know, one way or the other.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: adarict on September 02, 2014, 12:28:09 AM
While the news is interesting, I'm not seeing how this is much better than what we knew yesterday. It is one step closer, to be sure, but if I understand the update, all we have gained is confirmation that NCSoft is willing to actually consider a deal. Maybe I misread it, but I didn't see them say even the licensing of the IP is a done deal. Everything else is just what the negotiations are wanting.

Assuming the deal goes through with the terms they are discussing, I had a question about moving forward. According to the terms, we would end up with the binaries of I23. This would allow the group to put up a working server. No updates etc. Ok, I get that. I don't know exactly what APR/cox 1.5 really is, or how they are moving to unreal engine. Are they just building it from scratch and including the old environment and missions etc? My question is, if the binaries are turned over, and the IP rights are licensed, does that give the new device group the ability to legally reverse engineer the server? Would that even be worthwhile? I don't know if reverse engineering would make Cox 1.5 easier or not. If nothing else it could at least give them the ability to do updates to the original game.

Unreal would make a lot of things nicer in Cox, but it would also make it into a different game. No matter how much they try, it isn't going to play exactly like the original. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but still.

Maybe I misunderstood the whole announcement, but it just seems like people are jumping to conclusions and maybe setting themselves up for disappointment. It is a positive thing and a step in the right direction, but nowhere near any kind of certainty.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: lapucelle on September 02, 2014, 12:30:19 AM
Well, now you know who's the negotiating party.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ukaserex on September 02, 2014, 12:31:42 AM
Maybe I misunderstood the whole announcement, but it just seems like people are jumping to conclusions and maybe setting themselves up for disappointment. It is a positive thing and a step in the right direction, but nowhere near any kind of certainty.

Well, I don't think the CoH fanbase would be the CoH fanbase if we didn't assume the best would play out.

But, to their credit, Ironwolf, Downix, TonyV, Irish Girl - all of them have said that nothing is certain yet. We just have to wait for what can be.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Relitner on September 02, 2014, 12:34:02 AM
Truly inspired work from MWM and APR! You all have my respect and gratitude!

I also supported the kickstarter, and ever imagined anything this amazing. I cannot begin to imagine the time and effort this must have taken on a volunteer basis. Which leads me into my next question (which, suppose, is more of a concern).

I knew what I was getting into with CoT. But now the lines are blurred a bit. Will this continue to be a volunteer effort? From a volunteer studio? Are there plans to stand up a brick-and-mortar studio with employees who work on these projects? You all possess a far greater business acumen than I, so I won't go into the blah, blah...MMO's cost millions. But MMO's cost millions... and take years of development from a dedicated, full-time (plus) staff. You'll need much more capital than the 600K from KS.

I'm not doubting your ability to make this happen, I'm just unsure about the longevity and staying power of the group as it stands now (given what we know).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Alpha Series on September 02, 2014, 12:35:55 AM
Thank you, Nate and the restoration team. Also, Thanks to Ironwolf. I 'm hoping for the best and wish all of us the best of luck! Here's to the best possible outcome!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: adarict on September 02, 2014, 12:36:26 AM
Well, now you know who's the negotiating party.

That's true, though to be honest, I never really cared much who was negotiating. Based on how far it appeared to have gone, anyone negotiating at this point would have had the money and desire to be worthwhile, even it it wouldn't last long. Getting anything at this point would be better than nothing, so who was doing the buying was never a major concern to me.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: TinFoil on September 02, 2014, 12:41:51 AM
I just want to say thank you. No matter what the outcome, it's wonderful to see a team with passion and worldly understanding trying to save an experience we all love so much.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ad_Astra on September 02, 2014, 12:45:21 AM
OMG!

Next year in Paragon City?

(hoping it's a reasonable time line...)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pmoyer on September 02, 2014, 12:47:12 AM
Wow.

This is certainly unexpected news.  While the inability to bring across the user data for the characters due to license issues is somewhat unfortunate, I suppose that's one way to do a brute-force respec.  ;)  And for those of us who used Sentinel+ to store our characters before the end, that's a resource for us to recreate them.  (badge re-collection will be a pain, but hey...)

As long as whatever gets moved over (and later CoH 1.5/2/whatever) is able to be run on a Mac like the I23/I24.beta clients, I think I'll be happy.

Not that this will stop me from supporting CoT... the updates I've been reading have been definitely encouraging, especially the lore developments...

/torch

--- Philip
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 02, 2014, 12:48:26 AM
 While I am still somewhat confused by reading the post.. I definitely an very thankful for all the time work and effort put in to get the community of City of Heroes their home back..

 Man I was hoping for character data..

 My biggest concern is the maintenance mode.. if everything goes through.. how long does that last.. I would hate to get back in.. remake stuff and then.. oh well sorry we dont want to run this anymore.. good bye..
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: themamboman on September 02, 2014, 12:49:22 AM
Rereading Nate's post gave me that impression too. I think the big thing is that CoH 1.5 devs will have the right to recreate the game that we love, but on a new engine. And that the other spiritual successors no longer have to be scared of getting the pants sued off of them for resembling CoX. And that the i23 game will live on, but for how long?

Apologies if this has been mentioned so far (still catching up on the thread):

If CoH1.5 is created on a new engine, to recreate the feel of the original game, and it is the content that is licensed, I wonder if they would make the engine open source?

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 02, 2014, 12:51:43 AM
Right now it's pretty much just me working on it, and unfortunately I'm spending the next week packing and cleaning to move. (I should be packing right now, actually. Heh)
I don't have a time frame, I wish I did. It kind of depends on if it stays just me, or if...and how many...people join the project.
Really, I think that's going to depend on talks between myself and the licensing company that (hopefully) picks up the license.

*whispers to Irish Girl*  psssssst talk to SCoRE about teaming up....  (Wish I knew more about them!  Do they have code?  just a backup? How many of them are there?  Still hoping SCoRE doesn't give up at any rate!!)

*ducks*
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hejtmane on September 02, 2014, 12:52:05 AM
While I am still somewhat confused by reading the post.. I definitely an very thankful for all the time work and effort put in to get the community of City of Heroes their home back..

 Man I was hoping for character data..

I assumed they never get that unless NCsoft had went bankrupt and had to sell the assets; just never made sense for NCSoft to give it up for any reasons.

I just want NCSoft to say yes to the IP so I have someone to throw my money at to play COH.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 02, 2014, 12:54:07 AM
Thank you so much for all your hard work (and for going about it the right way!)

Also, what you have done must have been pretty dang impressive, because it brought Turgenev out of hiding! WOW.

For starters, for those who don't know.... I run APR. Nate and I have been in talks for a little while now, and I've got a pretty good handle on what the plan is. I'll try and answer some people's questions as best I can, So poor Nate isn't having to do everything.

CoH Issue 23 is planned to make a return, yes. However, the team will not have the ability to make ANY updates to it. No new content, no new costume pieces, no patching out bugs.

On windows 9, I have no information. Most likely there will be compatability issues with running something as old as CoH. Also, see above...No new content.

I'm totally ok with this, but my question based on that is.... Does that mean when Win 9 is released, the maintenance mode CoH is effectively shut down? Or, does it mean that the maintenance mode will run in perpetuity and Win 9 users simply won't be able to play the game? (I say this because I don't plan on upgrading to Win 9....also, some of us play CoH on OS X)...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dr. Bad Guy on September 02, 2014, 12:57:20 AM

 My biggest concern is the maintenance mode.. if everything goes through.. how long does that last.. I would hate to get back in.. remake stuff and then.. oh well sorry we dont want to run this anymore.. good bye..
Windows 7 sunset is 1/14/2020. That will probably be the last stable Win os for City. I'm sure somebody will be able to cludge something together to run it on a Win 9 system. Me personally,  at that point I'm sure I'll be neck deep in VO and COT
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dr. Bad Guy on September 02, 2014, 12:59:02 AM
Could always build a Linux box.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Winter Fable on September 02, 2014, 12:59:40 AM
For people worrying about "how long can a CoH 1.0 implementation last".

As long as they can keep the servers stable, honestly, it's almost indefinitely.

There is, currently, NOTHING in the Win9 pipeline that looks to affect anything CoH could do AT ALL.

The biggest hurdle will be building a working game loader/patcher, as a certain amount of the game is primarily client-side stuff that CAN be accessed/worked with/fixed at will.  Just so long as the server and client agree on the acceptable version number.
Thank You Hyperstrike,that makes me fell better if that is the case.I understand most of you want a newer version of the game but I love it just the way it was.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: lapucelle on September 02, 2014, 01:01:45 AM
A lot of your questions really depend on what happens next. We need to see if we can get CoH up and running. The old girl isn't in the best shape, we're going to need to build a new environment for her to live in. Auth, login, whole nine yards. We don't know about Windows 9 yet. We haven't seen it, and neither has anyone outside Microsoft, that I'm aware of.

This is just a _guess_, but I'm guessing that we'll get it running in limping mode, enough to check everything's there, show it off a little, and then we'll have to raise some money for servers to get her open. Again, this is just my best guess. CoT money is for CoT, we'd need new cash for this. Maybe a bank loan. Anyhow, once we get her up and limping, we'll be able to see what we need to do to get her running again. (I don't even know if we'll get the website and webstore.)

We're doing our best for you. We know what you want. We _are_ you.

And with your help, we're one step closer to Saving CoH.

- Warcabbit

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sinistar on September 02, 2014, 01:03:53 AM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Black Gold on September 02, 2014, 01:04:43 AM
So if NCSoft licenses out the IP to this third party company and the successor games utilize the IP does that mean NCSoft makes money on the game they essentially shut down when we pay fees related to the successor games we will play?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 02, 2014, 01:04:47 AM
A lot of your questions really depend on what happens next. We need to see if we can get CoH up and running. The old girl isn't in the best shape, we're going to need to build a new environment for her to live in. Auth, login, whole nine yards. We don't know about Windows 9 yet. We haven't seen it, and neither has anyone outside Microsoft, that I'm aware of.

This is just a _guess_, but I'm guessing that we'll get it running in limping mode, enough to check everything's there, show it off a little, and then we'll have to raise some money for servers to get her open. Again, this is just my best guess. CoT money is for CoT, we'd need new cash for this. Maybe a bank loan. Anyhow, once we get her up and limping, we'll be able to see what we need to do to get her running again. (I don't even know if we'll get the website and webstore.)

We're doing our best for you. We know what you want. We _are_ you.

And with your help, we're one step closer to Saving CoH.

- Warcabbit

remember, there are many of us that donated to kickstarter once, and will do it again.........dont be afraid to ask for help
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 01:05:33 AM
*whispers to Irish Girl*  psssssst talk to SCoRE about teaming up....  (Wish I knew more about them!  Do they have code?  just a backup? How many of them are there?  Still hoping SCoRE doesn't give up at any rate!!)

*ducks*

-Whispers back to Surelle- Pssssssst, IDK who works on SCoRE! and I think what SCoRE and I are doing are kinda on different paths. But, I don't think they should give up either! (If SCoRE does exist, and one of the people who may or may not be working on it feel like getting in touch with me...)

-ducks-
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: bugzee on September 02, 2014, 01:05:46 AM
As for i23 CoH staying live forever without any updates (if thats the case), I just wanted to point something out: I still play a multiplayer game called Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, and it still has quite a following. That game came out 2002! I23 as it is, still has years left in it. And the truth is, if City of Heroes were to come back online, it would be played for many years to come, provided the servers don't get unplugged. As for Windows 9 being a problem, maybe... But I don't think its confirmed that the game wont work in Win9. And if it doesn't, I'm sure the community can come up with workarounds for that. I'm being cautiously optimistic here about the game's revival, as Nate pointed out, its not a done deal.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 02, 2014, 01:07:35 AM
Windows 7 sunset is 1/14/2020. That will probably be the last stable Win os for City. I'm sure somebody will be able to cludge something together to run it on a Win 9 system. Me personally,  at that point I'm sure I'll be neck deep in VO and COT

 Im not concerned about how long Windows 7 will be around.. I am more concerned whether once again it will just END and we will all be in the lurch again..
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Spellcaster Hana on September 02, 2014, 01:08:10 AM
Wow, thanks for the update.

There are some things about the proposal that I find confusing but it's weird that I'm feeling not hopeful at all but having more of mixed feelings about all this instead. Maybe being tied to NCSoft or having no concrete result of the negotiations is what's causing me to feel like this...

I'd rather hear some kind of good news that favors us but this is still news, in a limbo kind of way.

Anyway, you guys got farther than the past TFHM team. Great job having some progress!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Septipheran on September 02, 2014, 01:09:01 AM
Jumping out of the woodwork to say thanks to everyone involved in making this happen. I'm cautiously optimistic like everyone else, but I did want to add my voice to the chorus of people willing to contribute to a Kickstarter or whatever fundraising means might be used to help get the ball rolling once (if) it gets to that point.


-Whispers back to Surelle- Pssssssst, IDK who works on SCoRE! and I think what SCoRE and I are doing are kinda on different paths. But, I don't think they should give up either! (If SCoRE does exist, and one of the people who may or may not be working on it feel like getting in touch with me...)

-ducks-

Come on, it's probably Codewalker.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 01:10:08 AM
I'm totally ok with this, but my question based on that is.... Does that mean when Win 9 is released, the maintenance mode CoH is effectively shut down? Or, does it mean that the maintenance mode will run in perpetuity and Win 9 users simply won't be able to play the game? (I say this because I don't plan on upgrading to Win 9....also, some of us play CoH on OS X)...

Since I'm not on the team that would be running CoH's maint. mode, I can't make promises on their behalf. But... I'm pretty sure the i23 server will run in perpetuity. The server is completely separate from any Operating System concerns.
CoH will run on anything that it currently runs on. It's the same client you've all got now. As to if it'll run well on Windows 9, I can't say until I've got a copy of Windows 9 I could test on.
As for OSX, I don't own a Mac but I do believe there's an Issue 23 version of the Mac Client floating around.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Viridian Surge on September 02, 2014, 01:14:17 AM
Thanks Tony V and the rest of the Titan Network for keeping this website and forums going. Thanks to the original TFHM folks for making the original post shutdown effort on our behalf. Tony, your level-headedness has help keep us public-spirited people focused on hope and civility.

Thanks Ironwolf for helping get this most recent effort rolling and for your keeping us posted on developments towards getting City of Heroes rebooted.

Thanks Downix for yours and the Hail Mary team for all your gallant efforts to help bring us back City of Heroes in maintenance mode with a look to the future of City of Heroes and it's successors.  :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Oskmey on September 02, 2014, 01:14:34 AM
Just wanted to throw my thanks in there too. I had always hoped to see the City again. If we have to start our characters over, I am good with that. There are only two things that I would definitely want: my original in game name (which is my forum name here) and to know when to throw money behind the project.

Thank you again and good luck on the next steps.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Remaugen on September 02, 2014, 01:15:53 AM
http://mmofallout.com/city-of-heroes-the-mask-comes-off/

Almost there!  ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 01:16:56 AM
Im not concerned about how long Windows 7 will be around.. I am more concerned whether once again it will just END and we will all be in the lurch again..

I can't imagine a scenario where this happens. Too many people who are involved in process are too emotionally invested in it.

I'll say right not, I would fight tooth and nail and then some before I let that happen again. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Rubberlad on September 02, 2014, 01:18:05 AM
...and then we'll have to raise some money for servers to get her open. Again, this is just my best guess. CoT money is for CoT, we'd need new cash for this. Maybe a bank loan.

Anyone else, I'd not hesitate. Missing Worlds Media... I'd say use whatever's left of the $600k that was put up for CoT (cause if given the choice, I think more folks would get behind CoH as the tried and true game they knew versus CoT, the still in the planning stages successor that no one has seen yet -- but I'm sure there's a fierce vocal minority that'd disagree).

Then again if you're already talking fundraising to finance new servers, then where's the money coming from to support the "doable" magic number that's been thrown out and potentially ok'ed by NCsoft? Do you guys have it or you're waiting to crowdfund that too once NCsoft agrees to a deal?

No offense but having all these eggs in MWM's basket is really making me nervous.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: r00tb0ySlim on September 02, 2014, 01:18:55 AM
Since I'm not on the team that would be running CoH's maint. mode, I can't make promises on their behalf. But... I'm pretty sure the i23 server will run in perpetuity. The server is completely separate from any Operating System concerns.
^^This^^  at least let's hope so as far as maintenance mode is concerned...perpetuity is our friend ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: dwturducken on September 02, 2014, 01:20:25 AM
Pretty sure that Codewalker has stated precisely what the differences are between the SCoRE team, should they actually exist, and their efforts, that may or may not actually be happening, and what the good folks at Team Hail Mary (or is it Atlas Park Revival, and can downix throw a headcount of Titan members who are on that team into his OP so we know who here is actually on the team and who just sounds really, really smart?) are doing. He and/or Blondeshell or Agge could probably even throw up links to threads where he's done exactly that, but things are moving so fast, here, let's not worry about that ATM.

And, while there may or may not be individuals within the ranks of the Titan Community who are more knowledgeable than many, if not all, the former official devs, the "S" in SCoRE stands for "secret." If there is anything that the last few days has shown about this community, it's that, when there is a secret that really needs to be kept, the folks who actually have it will do a pretty damned good job of keeping it, even if they can't help from letting people know that they have it. (If any of that made sense...)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Septipheran on September 02, 2014, 01:20:33 AM
Anyone else, I'd not hesitate. Missing Worlds Media... I'd say use whatever's left of the $600k that was put up for CoT (cause if given the choice, I think more folks would get behind CoH as the tried and true game they knew versus CoT, the still in the planning stages successor that no one has seen yet.

Then again if you're already talking fundraising to finance new servers, then where's the money coming from to support the magic number that's been thrown out and potentially ok'ed by NCsoft? Do you guys have it or you're waiting to crowdfund that too once NCsoft agrees to a deal?

Don't you think it'd be a bit on the unethical side to use the funds that people gave for a certain project (COT) for something entirely different (COH revival?) I tend to personally agree with you, but I can't see how re-purposing the funds would work practically.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: lapucelle on September 02, 2014, 01:21:27 AM
Yep, as I said, CoT money needs to stay with CoT. This would need to be clean money.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: kaliuwaa on September 02, 2014, 01:22:17 AM
Sincere "Mahalo" from this fanchick! 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on September 02, 2014, 01:22:46 AM
Since I'm not on the team that would be running CoH's maint. mode, I can't make promises on their behalf. But... I'm pretty sure the i23 server will run in perpetuity. The server is completely separate from any Operating System concerns.
CoH will run on anything that it currently runs on. It's the same client you've all got now. As to if it'll run well on Windows 9, I can't say until I've got a copy of Windows 9 I could test on.
As for OSX, I don't own a Mac but I do believe there's an Issue 23 version of the Mac Client floating around.
if I understand, cox maint. will be i23, so will cox 1.5 have i24?
again I want to say thank you to Missing Worlds and everyone involved in this, also will there be a kick starter before cox maint. goes online?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 01:23:16 AM
Don't you think it'd be a bit on the unethical side to use the funds that people gave for a certain project (COT) for something entirely different (COH revival?) I tend to personally agree with you, but I can't see how re-purposing the funds would work practically.

I don't believe they would do that. From everything I've heard, the intention is to keep Missing Worlds Media and the licensing group completely separate.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Septipheran on September 02, 2014, 01:27:00 AM
I don't believe they would do that. From everything I've heard, the intention is to keep Missing Worlds Media and the licensing group completely separate.

That's what I figured, not to mention the fact that a lot of people have been working pretty hard on that game. While some people might not be interested in it, it would be a shame to see it all go to waste.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how exactly these negotiations are being bankrolled? I'm assuming that one of NCSoft's first questions was "can you afford to buy this game?" Obviously MMO's are expensive... I'm assuming that either a.) Nate and co. have some pretty beefy resources independent from the MWM/COT fund (in which case I'm a little  curious as to why said funds were raised in the first place, but I digress) or b.) MWM's propensity for raising a boat load of money was enough of a sign of financial prowess for NCSoft to continue negotiations under good faith (but that seems a bit too good to be true.)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: epic on September 02, 2014, 01:27:40 AM
Thanks a bunch. Cant wait to get back to RV.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cobra Man on September 02, 2014, 01:30:03 AM
I may have missed this when I read through the thread but I have 3 questions.

1. Why is the source code off the table? Is it;

a) NCsoft don't have it

or

b) NCsoft don't want to part with it


2. Why are the existing user database and characters not part of this arrangement? Wouldn't it be good business practice to try and get as many ex-players back as they can. The prospect of players being able to recover beloved characters and SG bases etc would be a very powerful draw. There must be some way to invite players back.

3. Was any thought given to finishing and using i24?


Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: CreVo on September 02, 2014, 01:33:48 AM
Everyone in this thread needs to understand Issue 24 was -very- far along but it was not done. Animations, effects, balancing, and probably a lot more we don't even know about weren't finished. It would require future active development and input from the old developers. The latter part probably being the easiest to accomplish due to how involved they are with the community even still. Would be nice to have though ;[
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 02, 2014, 01:37:18 AM
Don't you think it'd be a bit on the unethical side to use the funds that people gave for a certain project (COT) for something entirely different (COH revival?) I tend to personally agree with you, but I can't see how re-purposing the funds would work practically.

Wow, you came out of hiding, Bro! :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Without_Pause on September 02, 2014, 01:38:02 AM
Glad the game is coming back. The CoH 1.5 part sounds like a mess until it gets cleared up. Let's just say I would like certain projects to have no part in CoH but apparently they are now free to do so. Again, how it is currently worded is done poorly.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Septipheran on September 02, 2014, 01:38:29 AM
Wow, you came out of hiding, Bro! :D

Haha. I did. If it makes you feel any better, whenever I've checked in for news I always stopped to read your posts.  8)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Atlantea on September 02, 2014, 01:40:03 AM
Well this is certainly good news!

Thanks to all for the efforts and the patience.

I think I get what you're saying about the technical aspects of things after a thorough read of the thread. These can mostly be worked with, adapted to, or outright kludged. I'm 100% certain that someone somewhere will be able to keep the original COH/COV game running even beyond 2020 if there's still enough people willing to play.

The MAIN thing that gives me hope though is in fact the IP being released. With THAT - the stories, the concepts, even visual designs - you can keep the world of Paragon City going INDEFINITELY through many iterations and games!

That's ENORMOUS. I can't overstate how important that is. If THAT part of the deal goes through as described, then the game really HAS been changed! In ALL senses of the word!

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 02, 2014, 01:40:09 AM
Since I'm not on the team that would be running CoH's maint. mode, I can't make promises on their behalf. But... I'm pretty sure the i23 server will run in perpetuity. The server is completely separate from any Operating System concerns.
CoH will run on anything that it currently runs on. It's the same client you've all got now. As to if it'll run well on Windows 9, I can't say until I've got a copy of Windows 9 I could test on.
As for OSX, I don't own a Mac but I do believe there's an Issue 23 version of the Mac Client floating around.

Thanks for your answer, Irish_Girl. I sent you a PM.

Side note.... This guy's avatar is basically how I was when I was reading the announcement:

(Click my name above to see my avatar)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 01:43:13 AM
Thanks for your answer, Irish_Girl. I sent you a PM.

Side note.... This guy's avatar is basically how I was when I was reading the announcement:

No problem, Today seems to be pretty much dedicated to answering peoples questions! :D
And oooh, a PM!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Rubberlad on September 02, 2014, 01:45:53 AM
I don't believe they would do that. From everything I've heard, the intention is to keep Missing Worlds Media and the licensing group completely separate.

There's a difference between unethical and what's potentially mismanaged.

Mind you, Nate says they started talking to NCsoft in September 2013 - that's prior to the CoT kickstarter going live. Personally, if I'd known there was a discussion in progress with NCsoft, I wouldn't have then gone out and asked folks for money to fund the spiritual successor of a game that I was actively (but quietly) trying to buy back. That alone has all sorts of red flags - but I digress.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Septipheran on September 02, 2014, 01:48:58 AM
There's a difference between unethical and what's potentially mismanaged.

Mind you, Nate says they started talking to NCsoft in September 2013 - that's prior to the CoT kickstarter going live. Personally, if I'd known there was a discussion in progress with NCsoft, I wouldn't have then gone out and asked folks for money to fund the spiritual successor of a game that I was actively (but quietly) trying to buy back. That alone has all sorts of red flags - but I digress.

The thing about that is that the effort to buy back COH was never (and still isn't) guaranteed. COT is and was a sure thing, something they knew they could do, so I can't say I blame them for moving forward as if COH wouldn't be back. If these negotiations fall apart, I'm willing to bet that a lot of people will be glad that COT is still being developed. A lot of people will probably play both games also, in the event that COH is saved.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Rubberlad on September 02, 2014, 01:51:17 AM
The thing about that is that the effort to buy back COH was never (and still isn't) guaranteed. COT is and was a sure thing, something they knew they could do, so I can't say I blame them for moving forward as if COH wouldn't be back. If these negotiations fall apart, I'm willing to bet that a lot of people will be glad that COT is still being developed. A lot of people will probably play both games also, in the event that COH is saved.

CoT is *not* a sure thing. Kickstarter has a history of successfully funded campaigns that never materialized (for one reason or another). And as stated elsewhere on this forum. the Kickstarter campaign was for CoT in Unreal Engine 3 - and then all of that work was scrapped post-successful fundraising. UE4 was not part of the plan and its just as much a big risk/potential to fail. See "State of the Game" updates where the team says they've had multiple setbacks getting the game off the ground in UE4. At this point its a dead heat between CoT versus CoH --- and I'd feel much better about both projects as separate, potentially successful opportunities if MWM wasn't holding all the cards.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Septipheran on September 02, 2014, 01:53:01 AM
CoT is *not* a sure thing. Kickstarter has a history of successfully funded campaigns that never materialized (for one reason or another). And as stated elsewhere on this forum. the Kickstarter campaign was for CoT in Unreal Engine 3 - and then all of that work was scrapped post-successful fundraising. UE4 was not part of the plan and its just as much a big risk/potential to fail. See "State of the Game" updates where the team says they've had multiple setbacks getting the game off the ground in UE4.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you since it seems like you're mostly being cynical. I will concede that "sure thing" might have been a poor choice in words, so feel free to re-read my post as "sure-er thing" and the point should still stand. Hope you enjoy the rest of your night.  :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Codewalker on September 02, 2014, 01:53:58 AM
Mind you, Nate says they started talking to NCsoft in September 2013 - that's prior to the CoT kickstarter going live. Personally, if I'd known there was a discussion in progress with NCsoft, I wouldn't have then gone out and asked folks for money to fund the spiritual successor of a game that I was actively (but quietly) trying to buy back. That alone has all sorts of red flags - but I digress.

Given the number of failed buyout attempts that were NOT publicized (but I believe the people involved had information about), putting everything on hold for a plan that had slim-to-none odds of success sounds like the worse choice to me.

They're still probably only low-to-moderate IMO, so I wouldn't start counting any chickens just yet.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Rubberlad on September 02, 2014, 01:59:18 AM
Given the number of failed buyout attempts that were NOT publicized (but I believe the people involved had information about), putting everything on hold for a plan that had slim-to-none odds of success sounds like the worse choice to me.

They're still probably only low-to-moderate IMO, so I wouldn't start counting any chickens just yet.

Oh I'm not. I'm pleased that NCsoft is still willing to negotiate 2 years later. But that's about all.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Atlantea on September 02, 2014, 02:03:03 AM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: themamboman on September 02, 2014, 02:06:35 AM
I hope it is safe to assume that holiday events and other special events (like Rikti invasions) would be returning.  As I understood at the time, they were settings on the server anyway.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: kminamyer28 on September 02, 2014, 02:07:16 AM
Just wanted to say thanks to EVERYONE involved in this and the other efforts (CoT and Atlas Park Revival).  I was a big player for six years (main toon Mega Volt on Guardian).  I have tried the three subpar wanna-be's (DC Online, Marvel Heroes, and Champions) and none of them had the community, design, play ability, or even the customization options (Marvel only allows their heroes).

Again....Thanks for all the work everyone is doing.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 02, 2014, 02:07:52 AM
I hope it is safe to assume that holiday events and other special events (like Rikti invasions) would be returning.  As I understood at the time, they were settings on the server anyway.

Yes, I think they were switches to turn on certain events based on the date.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: SteveTheDwarf on September 02, 2014, 02:08:47 AM
Just wanted to pop in from lurking and say thank you to all involved in this process. I look forward to whatever future news may come, good or bad.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blondeshell on September 02, 2014, 02:15:41 AM
Old clunky game engine? Incompatibility with Win 9?

DOESN'T MATTER.

It's the IDEAS and the Intellectual Property that is the real heart and soul of City of Heroes - and if THAT part of the deal goes through as described, then that part of the game - the concepts - the background stories - the characters - the NPCS - the visual design...

THAT PART will have been put in the hands of people who actually CARE about it!

Eventually the game engine will HAVE to change, one way or another. But moving it to Unreal Engine - and allowing other games to be part of the City of Heroes story and reference it..

GOOD GOD... That's HUGE.

Do you know what this means? SERIOUSLY? Have you thought it out to the extreme?

I just have. And it boggles my mind.

Imagine not one or two - but perhaps a DOZEN games - all in the same overall universe story-wise.

IF... IF this is not just NCSoft yanking people around again. If they really allow the IP to go. Then game engines don't matter. CODE doesn't matter.

The Story and the World of City of Heroes can live on even if the original game engine is (or has to be) discarded.

City of Heroes?

Imagine WORLD OF HEROES as a FRANCHISE.

As someone who's previously dealt with licensing intellectual property from a parent company for an established fan base, I completely agree with Atlantea.

Having the City of Heroes IP at your disposal makes nearly everything else pale in comparison. (A workable game version's nice, too, though. :) )
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 02:16:45 AM
As long as they can keep the servers stable, honestly, it's almost indefinitely.

Not quite as simple as that.  The servers are even more environmentally.. challenged.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 02:18:12 AM
Issues with the game engine and source code and the like pale into insignificance compared to freeing the IP from NCSoft...

Imagine WORLD OF HEROES as a FRANCHISE.

Agreed. I would imagine that Team Hail Mary and those that are in the "know" have suspected this, and while I appreciate that everyone really just wants to play CoH again (lord knows I do), I think if they are able to get the IP that is a far, far, greater coup than just getting the game up and running.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, depending on how much CoT, Valiance, H&V, and who knows who else are willing to work together, this could be a really unprecedented opportunity to create something more than just a single game, but for all of us to be able to participate in (and perhaps create) stories set in the City of Heroes 'verse.

I think it could be a really amazingly wonderful thing if they are able to get this going and set up.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Xenos on September 02, 2014, 02:18:50 AM
As for OSX, I don't own a Mac but I do believe there's an Issue 23 version of the Mac Client floating around.

There is an I23 and an I24 client for the Mac OS, so technically there should not be a issue. If there is an obstacle it might be an licensing issue with Transgaming who created the Mac version. But it surely wouldn't hurt to ask about it during the negotiations.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 02:24:11 AM
-Whispers back to Surelle- Pssssssst, IDK who works on SCoRE! and I think what SCoRE and I are doing are kinda on different paths. But, I don't think they should give up either! (If SCoRE does exist, and one of the people who may or may not be working on it feel like getting in touch with me...)

If SCoRE is the group I am aware of I do not think, in good concious we could cooperate.  I'll have to doiuble check, I may have my "They who shall not be named" crossed up.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ukaserex on September 02, 2014, 02:25:54 AM
Folks, I think many of these comments are putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. There's nothing cast in stone. Nothing in writing. Just an offer on the table. Nothing more, nothing less.

First, this licensing entity must be formed, right?

Then they have to get the rights to CoH so that they can license it to whomever would wish to make use of the lore, characters and such.

Then there's the matter of this Hail Mary team getting the game up and running from some binary copy - whatever that may mean. Uncompiled? <shrug> I'll leave that to you folks that know a lot more about it than I do. I'd be lucky to compile a "hello world" sucessfully.

My guess is that there will be at least another 3 months minimum under the best of conditions to get things running again. More likely 6 to 9 months - if the planets are all in alignment.

And that's okay. It's a better scenario than what we had before. Now, we have a glimmer of hope.

As for MWM and the Phoenix project - please continue your efforts on that project. It's what we paid for. This CoH deal may never come to pass.
I certainly hope it will, but it may not.

As for Atlas Park Revival - um...I know I took a break from the forums for a bit - but I'd never even heard of this before. Today's the first time I've seen it mentioned anywhere. Guess this was another effort that escaped my attention.

My guess is that our Sentinel files are still pretty much useless under this scenario?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 02, 2014, 02:26:31 AM
 Can someone explain this in plain english..

 To me it looks like..

  NC Soft sells IP to another company or sets up another company who will run CoH in maintenance mode..

  APR will work to transfer current Issue 23 CoH into Unreal Engine 4 so it can update CoH effectively making in CoH 1.5

  MWM will continue to develop City of Titans.. and effectively City of Titans since I will be able to licence the IP no longer making it a " spiritual successor " but an ACTUAL successor with the possibility of importing the CoH 1.5 ???

 Is that close ??
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: blacksly on September 02, 2014, 02:26:37 AM
I just want to say something. This is partially an expansion of my last post on the previous page. But hear me out.

People on this thread and elsewhere seem to be focussed on the technical aspects and "when can I log in again"?

Issues with the game engine and source code and the like pale into insignificance compared to freeing the IP from NCSoft.

Read the following again:

Old clunky game engine? Incompatibility with Win 9?

DOESN'T MATTER.

It's the IDEAS and the Intellectual Property that is the real heart and soul of City of Heroes - and if THAT part of the deal goes through as described, then that part of the game - the concepts - the background stories - the characters - the NPCS - the visual design...

THAT PART will have been put in the hands of people who actually CARE about it!

Eventually the game engine will HAVE to change, one way or another. But moving it to Unreal Engine - and allowing other games to be part of the City of Heroes story and reference it..

GOOD GOD... That's HUGE.

Do you know what this means? SERIOUSLY? Have you thought it out to the extreme?

I just have. And it boggles my mind.

Imagine not one or two - but perhaps a DOZEN games - all in the same overall universe story-wise.

IF... IF this is not just NCSoft yanking people around again. If they really allow the IP to go. Then game engines don't matter. CODE doesn't matter.

The Story and the World of City of Heroes can live on even if the original game engine is (or has to be) discarded.

City of Heroes?

Imagine WORLD OF HEROES as a FRANCHISE.

I'm having a hard time being too interested in that. City of Heroes was a great GAME. As a world it was only good, and many of the creative minds that worked on it, or played in it, could create another very interesting world. But keeping the particular world alive is more important and relevant for financial reasons, than for reasons of imagination.

On the other side, I've read lots and lots of books. Many of them were set in great universes (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Star Trek, Star Wars)... and many of the books were just bad. Getting a dozen games, of different types, all related to City of Heroes... means next to nothing, if the games are bad. And if they're good, they could be good whether they're tied into CoH or not. I am not in the slightest bit hopeful that a related game is going to be a great game just because it's set in the CoH world. It could be great, yes, but if a team makes a great game... they would have made a great game whether they set it in the CoH or the CoT world.

The game itself (code and design) are what matter to me, because they are a clearly superior product.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 02:34:44 AM
I may have missed this when I read through the thread but I have 3 questions.
1. Why is the source code off the table? Is it;
a) NCsoft don't have it
or
b) NCsoft don't want to part with it

It's a little more complicated.  There are weird ownership issues and what is and is not transferable from an entity that may or may not legally exist, etc. It's a rats nest and it kills things.

2. Why are the existing user database and characters not part of this arrangement? Wouldn't it be good business practice to try and get as many ex-players back as they can. The prospect of players being able to recover beloved characters and SG bases etc would be a very powerful draw. There must be some way to invite players back.

Largely this has to do with back end storage and the way that NCSoft chose to do it making it very difficult to yank out.

3. Was any thought given to finishing and using i24?

No Comment.
[/quote]
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyper Ai on September 02, 2014, 02:34:50 AM
I for one am extremely glad I backed MWM on kickstarter. If the community didn't pool together like they did to support one of our successors, this may never have happened.

It's sad to hear they probably wont get our data or the source code for updates ect., but all in all I'm really excited. I can't wait to see what unfolds with all of this great news. I really appreciate all of the hard work you guys put in getting us our game back. I can't thank you enough.

The CoX community truly is a great one.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: WolfSoul on September 02, 2014, 02:34:55 AM
That's what I've been thinking about. Frankly, I could just plotz!  ;D


I just want to say something. This is partially an expansion of my last post on the previous page. But hear me out.

People on this thread and elsewhere seem to be focussed on the technical aspects and "when can I log in again"?

Issues with the game engine and source code and the like pale into insignificance compared to freeing the IP from NCSoft.

Read the following again:

Old clunky game engine? Incompatibility with Win 9?

DOESN'T MATTER.

It's the IDEAS and the Intellectual Property that is the real heart and soul of City of Heroes - and if THAT part of the deal goes through as described, then that part of the game - the concepts - the background stories - the characters - the NPCS - the visual design...

THAT PART will have been put in the hands of people who actually CARE about it!

Eventually the game engine will HAVE to change, one way or another. But moving it to Unreal Engine - and allowing other games to be part of the City of Heroes story and reference it..

GOOD GOD... That's HUGE.

Do you know what this means? SERIOUSLY? Have you thought it out to the extreme?

I just have. And it boggles my mind.

Imagine not one or two - but perhaps a DOZEN games - all in the same overall universe story-wise.

IF... IF this is not just NCSoft yanking people around again. If they really allow the IP to go. Then game engines don't matter. CODE doesn't matter.

The Story and the World of City of Heroes can live on even if the original game engine is (or has to be) discarded.

City of Heroes?

Imagine WORLD OF HEROES as a FRANCHISE.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: epawtows on September 02, 2014, 02:35:46 AM
I may have missed this when I read through the thread but I have 3 questions.

1. Why is the source code off the table? Is it;

a) NCsoft don't have it

or

b) NCsoft don't want to part with it


2. Why are the existing user database and characters not part of this arrangement? Wouldn't it be good business practice to try and get as many ex-players back as they can. The prospect of players being able to recover beloved characters and SG bases etc would be a very powerful draw. There must be some way to invite players back.

3. Was any thought given to finishing and using i24?

Any one of a number of reasons for not going for the source code.  What if NCSoft used bits of CoH code in other games?  Or, heck, programmers who worked on CoH code worked on other games, who may or may not have used bits of earlier jobs in newer ones?  Even NCSoft might not be able to figure out *how* to sell the old source without creating legal issues for their still-active games.  Or, at least, not without spending so much time and effort onto documenting what went where that would cost far more than they're likely to get out of this deal.   
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ice Trix on September 02, 2014, 02:37:05 AM
The game engine matters far more than the IP to me. Both would be great & I do love the lore, but if I had to choose one or the other, it would be the game engine.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: BadWolf on September 02, 2014, 02:44:03 AM
Thanks to everyone involved in this for the wonderful news so far, and I hope to hear more wonderful news in the days and weeks to come!

One quick request to the forum administrators: Now that the people involved are formally announcing who they are, can we get some sort of designation of their status (whether a title, icon, what have you) in order to differentiate their presumably-official posts from speculation by people like me? Thanks!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: DarkCurrent on September 02, 2014, 02:44:49 AM
My problem is with the word license.  That sounds to me like ncsoft willstill have their claws in the ip.  Not just for coh, but for successors who use any of it. 

Why on earth would those three projects agree to that when they are creating their own worlds?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blondeshell on September 02, 2014, 02:45:31 AM
It's a rats nest and it kills things.
That you said this to someone named Cobra Man made me chuckle a little. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: lapucelle on September 02, 2014, 02:48:47 AM
The game engine matters far more than the IP to me. Both would be great & I do love the lore, but if I had to choose one or the other, it would be the game engine.

Remember, the engine is different from the game. The engine is simply what renders and runs the game. The game itself, the rules and art and everything, are IP.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 02, 2014, 02:50:41 AM
My problem is with the word license.  That sounds to me like ncsoft willstill have their claws in the ip.  Not just for coh, but for successors who use any of it. 

...

I'm glad you said it and not me.  But I have been thinking it!  Let's hope there wouldn't be mandatory income levels required or else NC is free to shut down the IP-based games and the backup of CoH again too....  But alas, it sounds like they are quite far away from a concrete deal anyway and it's been almost a year of contacting them already.  So in the end none of this may matter.

SCoRE, I put my faith in you!  Please don't give up! 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 02, 2014, 02:51:45 AM
My problem is with the word license.  That sounds to me like ncsoft willstill have their claws in the ip.  Not just for coh, but for successors who use any of it. 

Why on earth would those three projects agree to that when they are creating their own worlds?

This is a great point. Personally, I don't mind if NCSoft is affiliated. However, wouldn't that mean that all three games would have to pay licensing fees to NCSoft forever? Wouldn't that have a major impact on whether or not their respective games could stay alive, should it get to a point (God forbid) that any of the teams have money problems? Couldn't that potentially shut down all three games if NCSoft decides to pull the license?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cobra Man on September 02, 2014, 02:53:35 AM
That you said this to someone named Cobra Man made me chuckle a little. :)

I did have a wry smile but the question wasn't really answered.

Is it the case that NCsoft have chosen not to release the source code or do they simply not have it anymore?

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ObsidianPhoenix76 on September 02, 2014, 02:56:26 AM
The game engine matters far more than the IP to me. Both would be great & I do love the lore, but if I had to choose one or the other, it would be the game engine.

But...  The only problem with that is the game engine is pretty specific to City of Heroes.  Thus if we do not get the IP, the engine will not make much of a difference.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blondeshell on September 02, 2014, 02:58:49 AM
Remember, the engine is different from the game. The engine is simply what renders and runs the game. The game itself, the rules and art and everything, are IP.

Correct. Without the IP, you may still have a melee-based character who uses a sword and is highly resistant to damage, but you'll never again run an ITF on your fully-IOed Kat/Inv Scrapper. It's the content that makes City of Heroes what it is, not just the mechanics.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 03:01:58 AM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 02, 2014, 03:03:56 AM
That's not how I read Nate's post. What it sounds like is the IP will be sold, lock, stock, and barrel, to a new "City of Heroes" company that will own it. They will be able to license the IP to others to use for various things (games, publishing, etc.), but they, in turn will be licensing the game engine from NCSoft so that a maintenance mode CoH game can be provided.

Obviously, not a part of the team myself, so I could very well be misunderstanding, but that is the way the OP reads to me.

Ah, well... That sounds like a MUCH better deal.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 02, 2014, 03:04:00 AM
From what I understand (and I might be wrong), it's just a matter of pointing the client to a new authentication server. This can be done without the need for anything but a specially made shortcut.

For the EQ and WoW private servers I have knowledge of, it's replacing a single file, or even just manually editing an IP or two in the file already on your machine to point at the new servers. Pretty easy stuff if you have more computer knowledge than the average grandma. Haven't poked around in my i23 install but I can't see it being drastically different for CoH.

Others have raised Win7 concerns for 2020...I assure you, your OS won't turn into a pumpkin that day. You'll have to be a little more careful, but it'll still work for quite some time as companies generally aren't eager to end support to an OS still in wide use and recognized as excellent, even after MS has.

I still ran a 2k Pro box as late as 08, and only upgraded to XP then because the mobo released the magic smoke. I'll upgrade to 7 on this machine when some critical piece of hardware fails enough to force a reinstall or a power outage manages to trash the OS partition more than is worth the effort to recover. 9? maybe 2022... (and the gaming box on 7 runs i23 flawlessly, with Icon at least).

Anyway...I'm glad to see this is all in the hands of folks who truly love it and want to do well by it. Best of luck to MWM!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 02, 2014, 03:05:29 AM
CoT money is for CoT, we'd need new cash for this. Maybe a bank loan.

Setup a direct donation method specifically earmarked for this and ask the community. WE WILL HELP...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AnElfCalledMack on September 02, 2014, 03:06:41 AM
Computer science note: The "binary" version they're talking about is most likely compiled machine code, ready to run. If it wasn't compiled, it'd still be source code, and thus (to some degree) patchable. Once they get the file, it's just a matter of setting up servers for authentification and gameplay, then redirecting the client to the new servers. Now, setting up those servers to handle their potential load, making sure everything can talk to each other properly, and getting a copy of the i23 client to distribute to people who've lost their old ones (Personally, my old laptop is nearly dead and not up to gaming, so I'll need a new client if we get this) - that will all take time, money and effort. So I'm not suggesting that this will be particularly easy. But the offer currently on the table is a ready-to-run copy (and only the ready-to-run version) of the server code, and the capacity to license the IP so they can distribute the game client. Pretty much the minimum possible to create a functional maintenance mode, but it'll work - and the capacity for the IP to be further licensed, allowing for new media in a much-loved world, is an exciting benefit.

Also, re the licensing - did you miss the part where it would be a separate holding company? NCSoft itself would not control the decision-making about who got licenses and whether to withdraw them (though I imagine enough gore and gratuitous sex could get your license application rejected, still). It'd depend on the specifics of the spin-off, but there would be a very limited degree of control here. The licensing company would have the sole purpose of arranging suitable licenses, and games like CoT, VO and H&V are about as suitable as it gets.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: DarkCurrent on September 02, 2014, 03:06:49 AM
That's not how I read Nate's post. What it sounds like is the IP will be sold, lock, stock, and barrel, to a new "City of Heroes" company that will own it. They will be able to license the IP to others to use for various things (games, publishing, etc.), but they, in turn will be licensing the game engine from NCSoft so that a maintenance mode CoH game can be provided.

Obviously, not a part of the team myself, so I could very well be misunderstanding, but that is the way the OP reads to me.

Yes it is this holding company i'm not sure of.  Are they getting total ip rights and engine license ?  Or just license for both?

I absolutely would refuse licensing the ip from ncsoft.  If you did, they'd own the soul of every successor.

Hopefully this can be clarified by nate.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 03:12:49 AM
Yes it is this holding company i'm not sure of.  Are they getting total ip rights and engine license ?  Or just license for both?

I absolutely would refuse licensing the ip from ncsoft.  If you did, they'd own the soul of every successor.

Hopefully this can be clarified by nate.

He addressed it a little bit earlier (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,10284.msg158155.html#msg158155), when he mentioned it would be separate from MWM. By extension, it seems to me that it would also be separate from NCSoft.

And the engine itself will only be licensed, as noted in the OP. He also mentions (in a later post) that he thinks the game would be run by the holding company.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 02, 2014, 03:13:34 AM
Would someone be kind enough to PM and explain what SCoRE is.  I think I know, and Ive found a blog site by that name associated with CoH.  But if someone could be kind enough to hook me up with the 411 on this Id appreciate it ... see I no longer have CoH installed ...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 02, 2014, 03:16:54 AM
Computer science note: The "binary" version they're talking about is most likely compiled machine code, ready to run. If it wasn't compiled, it'd still be source code, and thus (to some degree) patchable. Once they get the file, it's just a matter of setting up servers for authentification and gameplay, then redirecting the client to the new servers. Now, setting up those servers to handle their potential load, making sure everything can talk to each other properly, and getting a copy of the i23 client to distribute to people who've lost their old ones (Personally, my old laptop is nearly dead and not up to gaming, so I'll need a new client if we get this) - that will all take time, money and effort. So I'm not suggesting that this will be particularly easy. But the offer currently on the table is a ready-to-run copy (and only the ready-to-run version) of the server code, and the capacity to license the IP so they can distribute the game client. Pretty much the minimum possible to create a functional maintenance mode, but it'll work - and the capacity for the IP to be further licensed, allowing for new media in a much-loved world, is an exciting benefit.

Also, re the licensing - did you miss the part where it would be a separate holding company? NCSoft itself would not control the decision-making about who got licenses and whether to withdraw them (though I imagine enough gore and gratuitous sex could get your license application rejected, still). It'd depend on the specifics of the spin-off, but there would be a very limited degree of control here. The licensing company would have the sole purpose of arranging suitable licenses, and games like CoT, VO and H&V are about as suitable as it gets.

This helped explain the tech side greatly - cheers!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 02, 2014, 03:17:29 AM
Yes it is this holding company i'm not sure of.  Are they getting total ip rights and engine license ?  Or just license for both?

I absolutely would refuse licensing the ip from ncsoft.  If you did, they'd own the soul of every successor.

Hopefully this can be clarified by nate.
Purchase IP, license engine.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 02, 2014, 03:19:35 AM
can someone explain the APR relationship and how it affects things going forward ??
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Teikiatsu on September 02, 2014, 03:21:02 AM
I'm having a hard time being too interested in that. City of Heroes was a great GAME. As a world it was only good, and many of the creative minds that worked on it, or played in it, could create another very interesting world. But keeping the particular world alive is more important and relevant for financial reasons, than for reasons of imagination.

On the other side, I've read lots and lots of books. Many of them were set in great universes (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Star Trek, Star Wars)... and many of the books were just bad. Getting a dozen games, of different types, all related to City of Heroes... means next to nothing, if the games are bad. And if they're good, they could be good whether they're tied into CoH or not. I am not in the slightest bit hopeful that a related game is going to be a great game just because it's set in the CoH world. It could be great, yes, but if a team makes a great game... they would have made a great game whether they set it in the CoH or the CoT world.

The game itself (code and design) are what matter to me, because they are a clearly superior product.

Agreed.  I really didn't care about the Freedom Phalanx and Arachnos stuff.  The storylines and background history mean very little to me.  I cared that I was able to log in an make a superhero and interact with a great community, and make a little personal storyline niche for myself.

Granted the villain groups, TF's and Incarnate were wrapped around all that stuff but they don't make or break the game for me.  I understand the IP is a major key to going forward, but if they renamed every last power description, good guy, bad guy and anti-hero it wouldn't bug me one bit.  So long as the mechanics, the chat channels and the community were around I'd be happy.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 03:22:28 AM
can someone explain the APR relationship and how it affects things going forward ??

Irish_Girl posted this (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9675.msg158361.html#msg158361) a few pages back.

As she is APR, that's about as official a statement as you'll find!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Remaugen on September 02, 2014, 03:23:45 AM
can someone explain the APR relationship and how it affects things going forward ??

As best I can tell, APR will be up to bat first with the CoX 1.5. but I am not entirely clear on that. They will be holding station until new content is ready to roll. (?)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 02, 2014, 03:24:32 AM
Irish_Girl posted this (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9675.msg158361.html#msg158361) a few pages back.

As she is APR, that's about as official a statement as you'll find!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh thanks that makes things clear..

so we get CoH in Unreal.. and MWM develops Titans.. got it
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Peacemaker on September 02, 2014, 03:25:46 AM
Great news!  This made my day.  Good luck to all persons involved!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 02, 2014, 03:25:58 AM
On the bright side, static binaries means no more nerfs ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 02, 2014, 03:26:03 AM
Computer science note: The "binary" version they're talking about is most likely compiled machine code, ready to run. If it wasn't compiled, it'd still be source code, and thus (to some degree) patchable. Once they get the file, it's just a matter of setting up servers for authentification and gameplay, then redirecting the client to the new servers. Now, setting up those servers to handle their potential load, making sure everything can talk to each other properly, and getting a copy of the i23 client to distribute to people who've lost their old ones (Personally, my old laptop is nearly dead and not up to gaming, so I'll need a new client if we get this) - that will all take time, money and effort. So I'm not suggesting that this will be particularly easy. But the offer currently on the table is a ready-to-run copy (and only the ready-to-run version) of the server code, and the capacity to license the IP so they can distribute the game client. Pretty much the minimum possible to create a functional maintenance mode, but it'll work - and the capacity for the IP to be further licensed, allowing for new media in a much-loved world, is an exciting benefit.

Also, re the licensing - did you miss the part where it would be a separate holding company? NCSoft itself would not control the decision-making about who got licenses and whether to withdraw them (though I imagine enough gore and gratuitous sex could get your license application rejected, still). It'd depend on the specifics of the spin-off, but there would be a very limited degree of control here. The licensing company would have the sole purpose of arranging suitable licenses, and games like CoT, VO and H&V are about as suitable as it gets.
Precisely this.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 03:26:47 AM
Purchase IP, license engine.

The shortest, most to-the-point explanation I've seen all day.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 03:27:13 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh thanks that makes things clear..

so we get CoH in Unreal.. and MWM develops Titans.. got it

That's my read on things, although getting CoH 1.5 in Unreal will be an undertaking in and of itself. The good thing about that though would be that it could be expanded upon (in theory), which a maintenance mode i23 can't.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Codewalker on September 02, 2014, 03:27:51 AM
On the bright side, static binaries means no more nerfs ;)

Have no fear, I'm pretty sure I can fish up the binary offsets for the Regen powers in order to reduce their effectiveness periodically.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Atlantea on September 02, 2014, 03:28:52 AM
Have no fear, I'm pretty sure I can fish up the binary offsets for the Regen powers in order to reduce their effectiveness periodically.

(https://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/Hecubus1080/TV%20Movie%20Music/vader-nooooo.jpg)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 02, 2014, 03:29:26 AM
Ill throw in some cash to help someone go "find" character data  ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 03:30:27 AM
Correct. Without the IP, you may still have a melee-based character who uses a sword and is highly resistant to damage, but you'll never again run an ITF on your fully-IOed Kat/Inv Scrapper. It's the content that makes City of Heroes what it is, not just the mechanics.

With an in-depth enough knowledge, mechanics can be replicated. Fairly easily. If I know that a Fire blaster, using Flares does, we'll say 6 DPS at level 1 without enhancements...then I can simply tell Unreal that a Level 1 Flares, with no enhcs, does 6 DPS.

But, without the I.P....I can't make that Fire Blaster.

There's a touch of misunderstanding going around, that moving to Unreal means that something about the gameplay will change. That's simply not true.
Is it likely that adjustments to certain things will be made during Beta? Yeah, just like during CoH. The devs would test, and adjust.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 02, 2014, 03:30:50 AM
On the bright side, static binaries means no more nerfs ;)

O rly? Challenge accepted xD
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 02, 2014, 03:34:49 AM
Have no fear, I'm pretty sure I can fish up the binary offsets for the Regen powers in order to reduce their effectiveness periodically.

O rly? Challenge accepted xD

You two are EEEEEEVIL, LOL.
 ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 03:36:00 AM
That's my read on things, although getting CoH 1.5 in Unreal will be an undertaking in and of itself. The good thing about that though would be that it could be expanded upon (in theory), which a maintenance mode i23 can't.

A fairly large undertaking, as I've learned. Not an entirely unpleasant one however.
Also, Expanding on it is the plan. Perhaps not exactly how Positron would have... ;P Since everyone knows what his plan was now.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 02, 2014, 03:36:46 AM
O rly? Challenge accepted xD

*Gives an evil eye towards scorpion shield, then a little angel says maybe buff up the other ancillery pools to allow them to match up to mace, also please don't nerf power build up you'd make the ancilleries it's in useless(especially in the face of mace mastery)*
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: sindyr on September 02, 2014, 03:38:27 AM
Let me come right out and admit that the apparent loss of the i24 perfection patch has hit me harder than expected. So let me ask, is there a way to get i24? I would move a lot of mountains to get i24 back. Is it a money thing? I am so in mourning for it I would donate quite a bit to get us that issue - perhaps other people would too.

Do we have to give up on i24 CoX now, or is there a way?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AnElfCalledMack on September 02, 2014, 03:38:56 AM
Would someone be kind enough to PM and explain what SCoRE is.  I think I know, and Ive found a blog site by that name associated with CoH.  But if someone could be kind enough to hook me up with the 411 on this Id appreciate it ... see I no longer have CoH installed ...
SCoRE (I thought it stood for Source Code Reverse Engineering?) is a rumoured attempt to reverse-engineer the source code of the game, and construct a functional server without buying or licensing anything. I know of no evidence that the project is even occurring, but it's something of an urban myth either way. The idea of reverse-engineering was brought up around the closure, but as it operates in very shady legal areas, any detailed discussion took place in private.

Legally, the EULA prohibited reverse-engineering, but there's an argument that NCSoft terminated the EULA and TOS by shutting down the servers. Regardless, this reverse-engineering would be gross copyright breach if used for a commercial purpose, and is in very unclear territory even if used free-of-charge and by not-for-profit organisations, depending on the jurisdiction it's judged in and the degree to which creating a private server for a no-longer-available game constitutes "fair use" of the IP and code, since the owner isn't actually losing subscription fees. There's very little precedent here. Honestly, the only one I can think of is the VCR decision - that designing technology that changes the parameters (such as time), but not the content, on a household scale counts as "fair use" under US copyright laws.

It has nothing to do with replacing your client - like I said, the license from the new CoH holding company would almost certainly include a license to distribute the game client to players.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 02, 2014, 03:42:15 AM
Purchase IP, license engine.

they probably use that engine in other places and dont want to sell it outright
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AnElfCalledMack on September 02, 2014, 03:49:32 AM
Let me come right out and admit that the apparent loss of the i24 perfection patch has hit me harder than expected. So let me ask, is there a way to get i24? I would move a lot of mountains to get i24 back. Is it a money thing? I am so in mourning for it I would donate quite a bit to get us that issue - perhaps other people would too.

Do we have to give up on i24 CoX now, or is there a way?

Negotiations are ongoing, and very little is off the table. However, we are not in the room and we aren't sure how unwilling NCSoft is to budge on it. For example, they may not have a binary of i24 - only source code for the patch. Thus, they'd have to give the team the full source code (something they are very unwilling to do, it seems) and allow the new company to compile the i24 server. And while money will help change minds, sometimes, there is only so far they are willing to move. In the end, we have to trust the people doing the negotiating - for many of them, these sorts of deals are their job, and they know how to get as much as they can and when something is truly off the table.

The deal isn't closed, so we don't have to give up on anything right yet. i24 isn't part of the package right now, but that might shift - perhaps as a concession to some other demand, or for a price the group can meet. But nothing is signed, and pushing too hard could mean we get nothing. So hope by all means, but be prepared that we may well not get it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ParagonKid on September 02, 2014, 03:53:35 AM
Not to sound unappreciated of the efforts, because I absolutely do respect all the hard work everyone has put in, but the outcome, as I understand how it currently stands, seems unappealing to me. The last thing I ever wanted to see is City in maintenance mode. Doubly so with all data wiped. The returning community will be a shell of what it once was, the game itself a walking corpse that will never see improvement, never grow, never change, for however long they can keep the server(s?) going, which may not be long. While I had no issues paying a subscription back in the day, ditto for buying stuff on the market, I did so knowing I was supporting a team that was constantly growing the game, which everyone thought would be around for many many more years.

I simply have no desire to pay for, or have faith in, a game that has no real future. so I probably wont return if pay to play is on the table, or anything in the market costs anything, which it most certainly will be the case since I know even running a game in maintenance mode isn't free.

YMMV, however, and I do not besmirch anyone who just wants the game back. So do I, but just not at all costs.
To quote Stephen King's Pet Sematary: "Sometimes dead is better."

Never say never though, and call me if ever 'City of Heroes 2' is entering closed beta.
 :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 02, 2014, 03:55:31 AM
Regardless, this reverse-engineering would be gross copyright breach if used for a commercial purpose, and is in very unclear territory even if used free-of-charge and by not-for-profit organisations, depending on the jurisdiction it's judged in and the degree to which creating a private server for a no-longer-available game constitutes "fair use" of the IP and code, since the owner isn't actually losing subscription fees. There's very little precedent here.

Hmm... If you add a couple of pads to "fight club", is it now "kickboxing", a legitimate legal sport?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Jade77 on September 02, 2014, 04:00:38 AM
Been along time since I popped in here (not that I was by a whole loot to begin with).  This is great news and I await the final results.  Kudos to all the hard work done to get this far.

Will any of the former staff of Paragon Studios be jumping on board to get this up and running when (fingers crossed) it happenes.

Really hope we can get the character data back too.  :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AnElfCalledMack on September 02, 2014, 04:04:17 AM
Hmm... If you add a couple of pads to "fight club", is it now "kickboxing", a legitimate legal sport?
In some jurisdictions, probably. Or you might need a ref and some waivers as well. The weird thing about doing stuff on the internet, though, is that you never know whose laws you'll be judged by for sure.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 02, 2014, 04:06:07 AM
The last thing I ever wanted to see is City in maintenance mode. Doubly so with all data wiped.

I do not doubt the validity of your feelings. However, they are not shared by many others. Manymany others.

Quote
To quote Stephen King's Pet Sematary: "Sometimes dead is better."

If you don't want to play in maintenance mode, no one is forcing you to. However, many others feel quite differently.

We've had two years of death. That is more than enough for me, and no I did not find it "better." Not one day went by when I did not miss the game. Many of us have mourned for the whole two years.

If you don't want to play, then don't. Fair enough. I just want my world back.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Black Gold on September 02, 2014, 04:06:53 AM
That's not how I read Nate's post. What it sounds like is the IP will be sold, lock, stock, and barrel, to a new "City of Heroes" company that will own it. They will be able to license the IP to others to use for various things (games, publishing, etc.), but they, in turn will be licensing the game engine from NCSoft so that a maintenance mode CoH game can be provided.

Obviously, not a part of the team myself, so I could very well be misunderstanding, but that is the way the OP reads to me.

EDIT: Specifically-

That latter paragraph, also, reads as if the spiritual successors may be exempt from licensing fees as part of this arrangement (though other successor games not in current negotiations probably would not).

Again, I may be reading too much between the lines.

 I can't see how you interpreted any of that from what was written. I read it as this 3rd party company would license it from NCSoft and be able to lease it out.  And saw nothing at all about exception from fees.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 04:08:36 AM
Mind, too, that maintenance mode isn't what is currently foreseen as the last stages of the game.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 04:10:15 AM
I can't see how you interpreted any of that from what was written. I read it as this 3rd party company would license it from NCSoft and be able to lease it out.  And saw nothing at all about exception from fees.

That latter part was perhaps my reading into things, yes. As for the former part, check out this post (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,10284.msg158458.html#msg158458) from Nate.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 04:11:41 AM
I did have a wry smile but the question wasn't really answered.

Is it the case that NCsoft have chosen not to release the source code or do they simply not have it anymore?

My understanding is it is not on the table, a no go.  My recollection of the way is a mix of they won't and they can't.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 02, 2014, 04:12:46 AM
Negotiations are ongoing, and very little is off the table. However, we are not in the room and we aren't sure how unwilling NCSoft is to budge on it. For example, they may not have a binary of i24 - only source code for the patch. Thus, they'd have to give the team the full source code (something they are very unwilling to do, it seems) and allow the new company to compile the i24 server.

Forgive a no doubt really ignorant question, but why would they be so fierce about the source code for a game from 2004...? they cant possibly still be basing one of their current games off of it, this just seems kind of bonkers to me. How could that code be anything other than a curiosity in today's gaming world?

[Except to us, natch.]
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 02, 2014, 04:15:46 AM
Forgive a no doubt really ignorant question, but why would they be so fierce about the source code for a game from 2004...? they cant possibly still be basing one of their current games off of it, this just seems kind of bonkers to me. How could that code be anything other than a curiosity in today's gaming world?

[Except to us, natch.]
Imagine a moment that CoH and, say, Lineage II share some key piece of code. Now, Lineage II is still in service in Asia, so this code, if sold, would cause a major problem for NCSoft in supporting their millions of customers in Asia. Now imagine CoH and Aion shared some other code. Then CoH and Guild Wars 2.... just how do you untangle the spiderweb of interconnected strands between all of these games which may or may not share code? NCSoft may not even know how tangled things are.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Black Gold on September 02, 2014, 04:17:41 AM
That latter part was perhaps my reading into things, yes. As for the former part, check out this post (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,10284.msg158458.html#msg158458) from Nate.
Ah ty I hadn't seen that part. But. who would own this spin off company?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dannii on September 02, 2014, 04:18:07 AM
I'm just curious as to why there is no source code out there.  I recently graduated from college and every bit of code I wrote, I kept, and that includes code from members of team projects that I was involved with.  I would assume that I am not the only one who does this.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: themamboman on September 02, 2014, 04:19:17 AM
SCoRE (I thought it stood for Source Code Reverse Engineering?) is a rumoured attempt to reverse-engineer the source code of the game, and construct a functional server without buying or licensing anything.

There was more than one team.  It stood for "Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers".  It was server-side simulation only, nothing to do with the client side, apart from changing the command-line to point to the new server.


Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: States on September 02, 2014, 04:20:40 AM
I'm patient.. I've waited this long for it to return or something like that to come along. Something better than DCUO.. As long it comes along I'm good
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 02, 2014, 04:22:23 AM
Imagine a moment that CoH and, say, Lineage II share some key piece of code. Now, Lineage II is still in service in Asia, so this code, if sold, would cause a major problem for NCSoft in supporting their millions of customers in Asia. Now imagine CoH and Aion shared some other code. Then CoH and Guild Wars 2.... just how do you untangle the spiderweb of interconnected strands between all of these games which may or may not share code? NCSoft may not even know how tangled things are.

OIC. Well, you're right, that would be a problem for sure.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 02, 2014, 04:23:27 AM
Forgive a no doubt really ignorant question, but why would they be so fierce about the source code for a game from 2004...? they cant possibly still be basing one of their current games off of it, this just seems kind of bonkers to me. How could that code be anything other than a curiosity in today's gaming world?

[Except to us, natch.]

Could be used as another bargaining chip to milk more money away from the buyer. Like I stated in the previous thread (that's why it was not surprise to me when I heard the account data was not included in this deal), a company doesn't give the entire package away, they piecemeal everything and anything to squeeze as much out of their buyers. Logically we think, they have no use to it, they should just include it. Almost a final dick move in a negotiation process. Your company has zero or no use for the piece of the product, but if there is someone willing to buy it, game on. This is not a bash on NC Soft, but just how all competent business run. Never give something away if you can make a profit to make your quarterly statement look that much better
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Niklarus on September 02, 2014, 04:25:58 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Downix {and again, just a general "THANK YOU"}

I guess for now its "The Holding Company"

(how about WHIP for We have IP)


I'm coming upon the news a little late and going through all the forum posts, so pardon me if someone's made this joke already, but how about Big Brother and the Holding Company?  'Cause CoH will always have a piece of my heart.   8)

http://youtu.be/9hcxbIln3sc (http://youtu.be/9hcxbIln3sc)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Aggelakis on September 02, 2014, 04:26:15 AM
There was more than one team.  It stood for "Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers".  It was server-side simulation only, nothing to do with the client side, apart from changing the command-line to point to the new server.
Well, you're talking out yer butt. Who are you again? ;) It *is* one team (but more than one person), and it *is* attempting to reverse engineer *the game*, not just the server. More than that is privileged information, and even *I* - as a Titan Mod - am not privy to most of it.

I think you may be confusing what's going on with Titan Network's "SCoRE" team.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 04:28:58 AM
Ah ty I hadn't seen that part. But. who would own this spin off company?

Gerhardt Eisenstadt.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Power Gamer on September 02, 2014, 04:29:40 AM
Forgive a no doubt really ignorant question, but why would they be so fierce about the source code for a game from 2004...? they cant possibly still be basing one of their current games off of it, this just seems kind of bonkers to me. How could that code be anything other than a curiosity in today's gaming world?

[Except to us, natch.]

You are correct that the source code is dated for a 2004 game.
And even the 2012 version of it would be a monstrocity.

However when resurrecting a game, it seems to me that what is paramount is not so much the source code per se, but rather how did it 'feel' to the player.

Having the code offer clues when writing a contemporary model. Getting the feel right is more important than the coding language. If it doesn't 'feel' like CoX, then even the most exemplary code would not connect with the player.

Hopefully the new devs have shown enough skill to convince NCSoft that bumps in the road will not be disasterous.  ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Black Gold on September 02, 2014, 04:29:54 AM
Gerhardt Eisenstadt.

Say what?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: TonyV on September 02, 2014, 04:30:07 AM
Hey all, I just want to point out some things that I'm reading into Nate's post that I think a lot of people are missing.

First of all, regarding access to existing character data, I24, and various game improvements, I'm going to highlight a few words that I feel are more important than people are giving them credit for being:

The proposal as it stands right now (this is not a final form, just the current proposal on the table) is this:
...
The existing user database and characters are not part of this arrangement at this time, nor is the source code.

The funny thing about business negotiations is that things change.  The stuff that Nate put in this post is a starting point just to get NCsoft to the table, not an ending point.  So until the ink is dry and more details are released, please don't count out the possibility that these things might actually come to pass.  And even after the ink is dry, don't discount the possibility that Nate and crew eventually go back to the bargaining table to get more stuff depending on how things go after the relaunch.

Speaking of which, I don't want to always be the Debbie Downer, but I'd be remiss if I didn't also point out these lines that a lot of people are ignoring:

Right now, still discussing terms, ideas, limits. The challenges we have been given we stepped up for and handled. Likely there will be discussions and adjustments right up until the moment the deal is signed. The whole thing may fall apart. For all we know, everything done so far has been nothing but a delaying tactic so they can say once again that they tried to work with the community to no avail. But until such time that becomes clear, we will continue forward in good faith.

Please always keep in the back of your mind that this is NOT a done deal.  I've seen a lot of posts here and on Facebook from people essentially claiming that Nate posted about the game's relaunch.  He didn't.  He posted about how he and his crew are still trying to negotiate for the game's relaunch.  Now, this isn't entirely bad news because personally, I think it's exciting that even on the two-year anniversary of the game's shutdown announcement people are still trying to relaunch the game.  But I will reiterate again that I want to make sure that people are cautiously optimistic.

Last, but not least, there is one thing I outright disagree with Nate about in his post:

...migrate people off of the classic game engine before it finally becomes unsuitable (we expect this to happen around when Windows 9 is released, due to binary compatibility).

I dunno, maybe he's actually tested the classic game client on Windows 9, since there are beta versions of it out there.  But if not, I would be inclined to strongly suspect that the classic game client would work fine on Windows 9, just as it does on Windows 8, Windows 7, Windows Vista, and Windows XP.  To my knowledge, there aren't any binary incompatibilities unless you try to play on a different platform (such as Windows RT), and in my experience, it is highly unusual for Microsoft to do anything to break backwards compatibility to that extent.  I may be wrong and end up eating those words, so as I always ask people, take my secondhand information worth a grain of salt.  But I've seen a lot of posts in here about how once Windows 9 comes out, the classic CoH game client will be toast, and I just don't think that's correct and I encourage people to not worry so much about that.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 04:31:44 AM
Gerhardt Eisenstadt.

A) Lol.
B) No. Nope. Nuh uh. Not even once. Niet. Nein.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Remaugen on September 02, 2014, 04:33:30 AM
Thanks Tony!

We're nearly there!  ;D


Edited for stupidity
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Black Gold on September 02, 2014, 04:34:15 AM
So would this spin off licensing company be a subsidiary of NCSoft?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: epawtows on September 02, 2014, 04:34:57 AM


I simply have no desire to pay for, or have faith in, a game that has no real future. so I probably wont return if pay to play is on the table, or anything in the market costs anything, which it most certainly will be the case since I know even running a game in maintenance mode isn't free.


While it is still way to early to know how this will pan out, but some of the fees paid on the 'maintenance mode' I23 'classic" CoH might be used to pay expenses used to make the Unreal 4 "CoH 1.5" version.  Particularly if those two are being managed by the same company.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on September 02, 2014, 04:35:27 AM
Interesting news.
It may not be the best news possible, but it's still good news. For now i shall remain cautiously optimistic.
Additionally i have revised my hopes for playing City of Heroes again to realistically be sometime in 2015 at the earliest, which is many orders of magnitude better than never.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 04:35:53 AM
A) Lol.
B) No. Nope. Nuh uh. Not even once. Niet. Nein.

And yet, would it not be the ultimate victory? Mwahahahahaaaa!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 04:37:14 AM
-Just read Tony's post. Seriously, I'm not going to quote something that freaking long -IG

A wild TonyV appears! With some good points, no less.

On the windows 9 topic... It will prolly run the client, if nothing else with some form of Comparability Mode. I think it's being a little over-focused on, personally.
People will always have the option to just...not move to Windows 9. -shrug- or Dual Booting, or having a separate PC set aside for it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 04:38:41 AM
So would this spin off licensing company be a subsidiary of NCSoft?

No.
Ok, well...I'm not in a position to speak officially on that. But, from everything I've heard speaking with Nate...It's highly, highly unlikely.
If so...What's even the point? They'd just re-open Paragon Studios.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 04:40:09 AM
And yet, would it not be the ultimate victory? Mwahahahahaaaa!

He was Emperor of the Americas for like 6 hours, and we still haven't stopped hearing about it. I can't even imagine what it'd be like if he owned the universe...

Shudder to think...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 04:54:51 AM
For those who do not know Korean business methods, it is considered highly rude to directly email someone, but to instead get an introduction from a third party business associate. This meant we had to find someone who was not part of NC Soft to formally introduce us to Mr. Yoon. Fortunately, we had two people who could do just that, a former NC West employee and a former co-worker of mine who had started a media company which works with NC Soft on developing properties for the Asian market.
Thanks so much for all the effort.

And...Holy smokes!   No wonder this is so complicated.  Cultural differences really throw a monkey wrench into it.  What we may consider "logical" might be completely out of the question for another culture.  Makes me appreciate the hard work which has gone into this even more.  Looks like a very slow and tedious process.   Hope this works out but that process above makes me cautious.  Maybe I'm reading it differently than everyone else who is celebrating.   Hope SCoRE is still pushing ahead just in case.   
For people worrying about "how long can a CoH 1.0 implementation last".

As long as they can keep the servers stable, honestly, it's almost indefinitely.

There is, currently, NOTHING in the Win9 pipeline that looks to affect anything CoH could do AT ALL.

The biggest hurdle will be building a working game loader/patcher, as a certain amount of the game is primarily client-side stuff that CAN be accessed/worked with/fixed at will.  Just so long as the server and client agree on the acceptable version number.
This is heartening to read.    My fondest hope was to get CoH running with someone who intended to keep it running. 
Since I'm not on the team that would be running CoH's maint. mode, I can't make promises on their behalf. But... I'm pretty sure the i23 server will run in perpetuity.
That sounds even better.  :)
I can't imagine a scenario where this happens. Too many people who are involved in process are too emotionally invested in it.

I'll say right not, I would fight tooth and nail and then some before I let that happen again. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
And that is a great way to illustrate to everyone just how much you guys are us.

Purchase IP, license engine.
That helps me a lot.  Thanks Downix.
There's a touch of misunderstanding going around, that moving to Unreal means that something about the gameplay will change. That's simply not true.
Is it likely that adjustments to certain things will be made during Beta? Yeah, just like during CoH. The devs would test, and adjust.
Thanks Irish Girl...I was one of those who didn't quite understand this.    Keeping the same gameplay for CoH 1.5 is huge to me....I'm officially very excited about seeing it now.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: TonyV on September 02, 2014, 04:58:46 AM
A wild TonyV appears! With some good points, no less.

I deliberately stayed out of the conversation for a while because I wanted to give everyone a chance to digest it and see which way the conversation steered. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 05:01:23 AM
I deliberately stayed out of the conversation for a while because I wanted to give everyone a chance to digest it and see which way the conversation steered. :)

I think it ended up going in a 'People asking a lot of questions that I hopefully answered well' direction. I wish I had answers to give to the questions that are left open, unfortunately even I'm at 'Wait and see' on those.

P.S.: I'm so not good at 'wait and see'!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AnElfCalledMack on September 02, 2014, 05:02:15 AM
So would this spin off licensing company be a subsidiary of NCSoft?
From what we've heard, no. It would be formed by the consortium of buyers, and purchase the IP to CoH outright. It would license the server engine for maintenace mode from NCSoft. It would also issue licenses to each of the Plan Z games if their developers wanted/needed them. Part of this is possibly because more than just MWM is involved in this, and it simplifies the process if each interest can just take shares of City of Heroes Inc. based on their contribution to the purchase. Part of it is also that then for NCSoft, it's not another game studio buying their IP - it's just been cut loose to do its own thing, having made the company a reasonable sum in the process.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Timelord Tom on September 02, 2014, 05:04:15 AM
This may have already been expressed by someone else, but let me second, or third, or hundredth it...

"The CoH IP would be spun to its own company..." And who, pray tell, would own this company?

Wishing all goes for the best possible future for COH's return AND longevity, but still standing in the skeptics corner.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 02, 2014, 05:08:12 AM
Nemesis Holding Co., a Limited Liability Company.

I like that sound of that. Is it just me?  :P
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 02, 2014, 05:09:52 AM
So would this spin off licensing company be a subsidiary of NCSoft?
A subsidy, no. The specific ownership details are still very much up in the air. I know what my preference would be, but this is an area where we can expect NCSoft to have a lot of say in the particular legal structure. My goal (being very specific here, this is my personal goal) is to have this be a form of trust.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Tubbius on September 02, 2014, 05:10:15 AM
I just want to say something. This is partially an expansion of my last post on the previous page. But hear me out.

People on this thread and elsewhere seem to be focussed on the technical aspects and "when can I log in again"?

Issues with the game engine and source code and the like pale into insignificance compared to freeing the IP from NCSoft.

Read the following again:

Old clunky game engine? Incompatibility with Win 9?

DOESN'T MATTER.

It's the IDEAS and the Intellectual Property that is the real heart and soul of City of Heroes - and if THAT part of the deal goes through as described, then that part of the game - the concepts - the background stories - the characters - the NPCS - the visual design...

THAT PART will have been put in the hands of people who actually CARE about it!

Eventually the game engine will HAVE to change, one way or another. But moving it to Unreal Engine - and allowing other games to be part of the City of Heroes story and reference it..

GOOD GOD... That's HUGE.

Do you know what this means? SERIOUSLY? Have you thought it out to the extreme?

I just have. And it boggles my mind.

Imagine not one or two - but perhaps a DOZEN games - all in the same overall universe story-wise.

IF... IF this is not just NCSoft yanking people around again. If they really allow the IP to go. Then game engines don't matter. CODE doesn't matter.

The Story and the World of City of Heroes can live on even if the original game engine is (or has to be) discarded.

City of Heroes?

Imagine WORLD OF HEROES as a FRANCHISE.

Consider it imagined.

:)

Sounds a LOT like the basic relationship between the Star Wars canon and the Expanded Universe, in a way.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 02, 2014, 05:13:23 AM
"The CoH IP would be spun to its own company..." And who, pray tell, would own this company?
There are a lot of options for setting up a company which makes "ownership" a complex and confusing thing. Is it set up as a standard IP Holding Company or as an Active Trust? Just two of the dozens of options on the table. I'd rather put this down when it is more clear what direction things will be going in.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 02, 2014, 05:28:49 AM
And even the 2012 version of it would be a monstrocity.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=s9.favim.com%2Forig%2F131017%2Fmemes-meme-pictures-Favim.com-999669.jpg)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: kribbla on September 02, 2014, 05:49:33 AM
I'm not directly involved in the talks with NCSoft, but from what I understand the source is completely off the table, and many of the tools required simply don't exist anymore.
This is where Revival comes in. The plan is kind of...to replace CoH with it. CoH 1.5/CoH 2 if you will. Same setting, same stories you've all known and loved. New engine, new updates, new stories for you to, hopefully, come to love.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=soshable.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F09%2Fshut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MWRuger on September 02, 2014, 05:56:11 AM
Nate,

Thanks for working on this. I have offered my services to Power_Girl and I'll offer them to you. You need anything I can do, I think you still have my email. But it sounds like you need lawyers more than 2-D computer artists. But if you do, let me know.

Best,

MWRuger
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cephalic_Disavow on September 02, 2014, 05:59:55 AM
This is very exciting, I love CoH alot but it needed updated so bad.
Running it on Unreal will definitely lighten the workload and produce minimal lag.
Not to mention those graphics:)

I leave my hope in you guys if this deal goes through.

City invented the superhero MMO genre and was the only one to do it right,
It seems it's departure inspired people enough to want to give us that feeling back.

And for that I thank you guys so much for your efforts, stay strong and patient!
I'll crack a nice glass of wine for CoH 1.5 tonight!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 02, 2014, 06:01:22 AM
On the windows 9 topic... It will prolly run the client, if nothing else with some form of Comparability Mode.

This is what seems likeliest to me. Regardless of anything else, it's a major MMO which means it has to have been fairly standards compliant. Generally the older games that didn't play fast and loose with things to try and get something running or squeeze more performance do just fine under compat mode.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 02, 2014, 06:04:40 AM
P.S.: I'm so not good at 'wait and see'!

You are one of us!!!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 02, 2014, 06:10:57 AM

I dunno, maybe he's actually tested the classic game client on Windows 9, since there are beta versions of it out there.  But if not, I would be inclined to strongly suspect that the classic game client would work fine on Windows 9, just as it does on Windows 8, Windows 7, Windows Vista, and Windows XP.  To my knowledge, there aren't any binary incompatibilities unless you try to play on a different platform (such as Windows RT), and in my experience, it is highly unusual for Microsoft to do anything to break backwards compatibility to that extent.  I may be wrong and end up eating those words, so as I always ask people, take my secondhand information worth a grain of salt.  But I've seen a lot of posts in here about how once Windows 9 comes out, the classic CoH game client will be toast, and I just don't think that's correct and I encourage people to not worry so much about that.

Wait. Something worked with Windows Vista? :)

But more importantly, did it work with windows 3.11?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 06:18:58 AM
I dunno, maybe he's actually tested the classic game client on Windows 9, since there are beta versions of it out there.  But if not, I would be inclined to strongly suspect that the classic game client would work fine on Windows 9, just as it does on Windows 8, Windows 7, Windows Vista, and Windows XP.  To my knowledge, there aren't any binary incompatibilities unless you try to play on a different platform (such as Windows RT), and in my experience, it is highly unusual for Microsoft to do anything to break backwards compatibility to that extent.  I may be wrong and end up eating those words, so as I always ask people, take my secondhand information worth a grain of salt.  But I've seen a lot of posts in here about how once Windows 9 comes out, the classic CoH game client will be toast, and I just don't think that's correct and I encourage people to not worry so much about that.

In fact, it's almost a certainty that the old client will run fine in Windows 9.  It already runs fine in Windows 8/8.1, and 9 is absolutely NOT going to be as different as some people seem to think it is.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 06:22:57 AM
I think it ended up going in a 'People asking a lot of questions that I hopefully answered well' direction. I wish I had answers to give to the questions that are left open, unfortunately even I'm at 'Wait and see' on those.

P.S.: I'm so not good at 'wait and see'!

The main thing I'm getting from this, with regards to your Atlas Park Revival project and CoH 1.5, is that oh boy, you are REALLY going to need some help!

No one could possibly hope to code CoH 1.5, solo, in any achievable time scale. Not for the kind of end result the player base would expect.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Perplexite on September 02, 2014, 06:23:43 AM
Wanna chip in and say Thank You for taking the time to inform us! It means a whole bucket of lots to me and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Will keep my eye out and leave my karma-account open to you!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: kiario on September 02, 2014, 06:40:19 AM
Thanks to Downix and all involved. Good news :)

By the way, should we not have one thread for this? Its confusing with three.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Warhawk2012 on September 02, 2014, 06:51:50 AM
I don't know what to say.  I am singularly blown away by this news.  That you guys have made, not only this effort, but exercised infinitely greater patience than I could have mustered.  You have my respect and admiration, regardless of which way this goes.  You have all demonstrated one of the underlying things that brought this community together...Hope!  We await an answer...patiently.  It's the least we can do.  Thank you all once again.

[EDIT: Removed completely unnecessary quote of giant original post. ~Agge]
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: esqesque on September 02, 2014, 07:00:18 AM
First off, kudos to everyone involved with getting this far in the negotiations. Whatever else may happen, you have my (at least) thanks and gratitude.

One thing I've noticed in all the talk is there is no discussion about whether CiOX, COH or whichever successor(s) emerge will be Mac-compatible or supported. It may be too early to say, but is that anticipated? (And if I've missed that discussion, please forgive me).

(Wrote the person who came to COX because I could play it on my Mac).

Thanks again!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AnElfCalledMack on September 02, 2014, 07:10:18 AM
First off, kudos to everyone involved with getting this far in the negotiations. Whatever else may happen, you have my (at least) thanks and gratitude.

One thing I've noticed in all the talk is there is no discussion about whether CiOX, COH or whichever successor(s) emerge will be Mac-compatible or supported. It may be too early to say, but is that anticipated? (And if I've missed that discussion, please forgive me).

(Wrote the person who came to COX because I could play it on my Mac).

Thanks again!
If the old Mac client still works, it'll be fine. The negotiations are pretty strictly server-side. But if new OSX updates have broken the client (and it's hard to tell if they have without a server to test on), then there won't be many tools to update it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 07:22:54 AM
The main thing I'm getting from this, with regards to your Atlas Park Revival project and CoH 1.5, is that oh boy, you are REALLY going to need some help!

No one could possibly hope to code CoH 1.5, solo, in any achievable time scale. Not for the kind of end result the player base would expect.

Well, I wasn't planning on staying solo! Especially since I code one BUGGY Hello World.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 07:24:50 AM
Well, I wasn't planning on staying solo! Especially since I code one BUGGY Hello World.

Must be a damned scary prospect, having that dropped in your lap!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 07:26:20 AM
First off, kudos to everyone involved with getting this far in the negotiations. Whatever else may happen, you have my (at least) thanks and gratitude.
One thing I've noticed in all the talk is there is no discussion about whether CiOX, COH or whichever successor(s) emerge will be Mac-compatible or supported. It may be too early to say, but is that anticipated? (And if I've missed that discussion, please forgive me).
(Wrote the person who came to COX because I could play it on my Mac).
Thanks again!

As long as the Issue 23 client worked on OSX, which to my knowledge it did. I doubt anything's changed in that time on OSX's side to break that.

Revival will be available on Windows, and Mac OSX. I'm not confident to say that the OSX version will launch alongside the PC release, only that there will be one.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: zaran on September 02, 2014, 07:28:55 AM
Thanks to all for getting this far.

To Nate and the rest of TFHM, thank you for your continued efforts.

To IronWolf, thank you for kickstarting the process again and not giving up hope.

To Mr. Yoon, thank you for being willing to listen to our request and introduce us to Mr. Chung. You honor us with your trust.

To Mr. Chung, thank you for listening to us and for continuing to work toward a result that NC Soft and ourselves can be happy with. 

To TonyV and everyone here at Titan Network, thanks for keeping the dream alive.

And to everyone else, thanks for being part of the greatest game community in the world.

I look forward to the day I can fly again. If not in CoH, then in Titan City or elsewhere. The important thing is that I will not fly alone.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Rigo42 on September 02, 2014, 07:30:14 AM
Thank you for this, many of us understand the reason for the long wait times. This is just how this business works. I am glad you are finally able to get this off your shoulders :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: blue storm on September 02, 2014, 07:48:53 AM

Another voice echoing what others have been expressing : amazement at the scope and gratitude.

I know how difficult what you are trying to achieve is and I commend your effort and the manner in which they are being pursued. I am confident in your capability to achieve that goal, and will hold the torch for as long as necessary in the meantime

Let's put me up of a lifetime sub(s) ;-)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 02, 2014, 07:57:52 AM
Yes I think that without the source code, its just like reviving the game for a little while so you can say your final goodbyes... But I wonder if the source code is completely off the table, or is it just not part of the current talks?
Bones! Revive the prisoner... Jim it'll kill him! He is dead anyway.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 02, 2014, 08:01:17 AM
Imagine a moment that CoH and, say, Lineage II share some key piece of code. Now, Lineage II is still in service in Asia, so this code, if sold, would cause a major problem for NCSoft in supporting their millions of customers in Asia. Now imagine CoH and Aion shared some other code. Then CoH and Guild Wars 2.... just how do you untangle the spiderweb of interconnected strands between all of these games which may or may not share code? NCSoft may not even know how tangled things are.
Couldn't you just sign a piece of paper saying we wont sue you no matter what?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 02, 2014, 08:04:42 AM
While it is still way to early to know how this will pan out, but some of the fees paid on the 'maintenance mode' I23 'classic" CoH might be used to pay expenses used to make the Unreal 4 "CoH 1.5" version.  Particularly if those two are being managed by the same company.
I am curious. Would we have the ability to edit and add content to the CoH 1.5 version?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 08:07:01 AM
I am curious. Would we have the ability to edit and add content to the CoH 1.5 version?

That would kinda be the whole point...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 02, 2014, 08:07:59 AM
This is what seems likeliest to me. Regardless of anything else, it's a major MMO which means it has to have been fairly standards compliant. Generally the older games that didn't play fast and loose with things to try and get something running or squeeze more performance do just fine under compat mode.
Lets be honest it would be SUICIDE for Microsoft to screw this like this up. They need a STUD OS and this would NOT be a stud OS... I hope they arnt that dumb... they might not get away with it this time.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 02, 2014, 08:08:58 AM
That would kinda be the whole point...
I mean just because it is compatible with windows 9 ETC. doesn't mean it is editable ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 08:17:13 AM
I mean just because it is compatible with windows 9 ETC. doesn't mean it is editable ;)

It's being written from scratch... Of course it's editable...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 08:20:35 AM
It's being written from scratch... Of course it's editable...

Windows 9: Muffin Edition?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: SypherVendetta on September 02, 2014, 08:31:04 AM
If everything goes as planned you could always turn to crowd funding on kickstarter and the community i'm sure will help one way or the other, i know i definitely would like to help out in some shape or form, even if it's holding a banner outside starbucks at 7am to get people to play this game haha!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 08:34:47 AM
If everything goes as planned you could always turn to crowd funding on kickstarter and the community i'm sure will help one way or the other, i know i definitely would like to help out in some shape or form, even if it's holding a banner outside starbucks at 7am to get people to play this game haha!

I would love to see that, lol. People could never say you weren't dedicated.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlBQuirky on September 02, 2014, 08:54:02 AM
So much going behind the scenes I had no idea about!  Wonderful news and thank you, THANK YOU for this update :)

My best thoughts, wishes, and prayers for your continued success :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 02, 2014, 09:09:27 AM
It's being written from scratch... Of course it's editable...
Well my bad it hasn't been super clear I guess.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Verziga on September 02, 2014, 09:11:47 AM
Long time lurker but had to register now to say thanks to all involved. Your efforts are hugely appreciated.

On the character data front...would there be any scope to offer an 'instant lvl 50' option for a small fee similar to WOW's instant lvl 90 that they recently added? It might appease those who aren't too keen on starting from scratch. I've got less than no idea at all how anything technical works and whether that would even be possible.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 02, 2014, 09:18:15 AM
*Normally* on a technical basis that'd be pretty easy. This isn't a normal situation, tho...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Verziga on September 02, 2014, 09:25:45 AM
*Normally* on a technical basis that'd be pretty easy. This isn't a normal situation, tho...

Yeah that's what I figured. Personally, I'd have no problem starting from scratch anyway. The whole point of any game is to play it after all.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 02, 2014, 09:49:14 AM
While a free 50 is probably not easily doable with current ideas... there would be less issue with say, being given XP boosters. It's basically just 2x xp, but if you had enough of them... :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 02, 2014, 09:54:36 AM
Yeah that's what I figured. Personally, I'd have no problem starting from scratch anyway. The whole point of any game is to play it after all.

Exactly. I'm more concerned at this point with simply being able to get a few of the names I was most attached to. I have the costumes saved, I have money to repurchase the unlocks, and the journey IS the point...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Jetfire99 on September 02, 2014, 10:15:51 AM
Must not get hopes up but ... a chance ... this is enough. Even if it doesn't make it thanks chomper this is more than I expected.

Embryon and Operative Mauser .... stir in stasis
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: DarkCurrent on September 02, 2014, 10:16:14 AM
Purchase IP, license engine.

Thank you, sir.

That makes a lot more business sense.  Hopefully, it can be done quickly and cleanly.  Then the successors can stop struggling renaming ats and things.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Stealth Dart on September 02, 2014, 10:35:32 AM
So for those asking what is APR?   :o

APR stands for Atlas Park Revival.  What is Atlas Park Revival?  :-\

Atlas Park Revival is Irish_Girl's project to take the existing geometries...the meshes as it were of the existing environment of City of Heroes and recreate them using Unreal Engine.  To what end?  To create the environment for an updated City of Heroes game with a newer game engine.  So while the Issue23 build of City of Heroes will not be able to be updated at all due to lack of the original source code.  APR will be using a license from the COT (City of Titans) build, which uses Unreal Engine 4, to make the next generation of City of Heroes.  Same COH IP, similar COH game play, updated graphics and capabilities.  What is being dubbed City of Heroes 1.5.  This version will be able to be updated with new content, power sets, story arcs etc.

Irish_Girl can correct me if I am incorrect in any of my understandings of this project.   ;D

Here is the link to the webpage.  http://apr.pc-logix.com/

Here is an example pic of Atlas Park in Unreal Engine.  http://apr.pc-logix.com/uploads/gallery/album_1/gallery_1_1_14817.jpg

Here is a video done in Unreal Engine.  http://youtu.be/Bg_xIAekCys



Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sihada on September 02, 2014, 10:38:32 AM
Starting from scratch: Love it. The clean slate means that hero names that were attached to accounts that were never coming back will be available.  Already making my list of hero names I'm hoping to be able to grab.

SCORE: Someone else already said this and I agree: they appear to be an urban myth. It's romantic to think that there is a secret cabal of programmers laboring in obscurity to reverse engineer the server or the game in whole. The problem is that there is no evidence that they exist, or that they've made any progress.

I23/24: Don't care so long as I can play CoH with my kids.

Source Code: There are a host of reasons why a company wouldn't release this. It may contain code licensed from elsewhere that prohibits this kind of transfer. It may contain code that is used in other properties (Lineage, etc) where exposing the source could introduce security risks, etc.

Naysayers: we've already had one person decide they won't pay since they didn't get exactly what they want. More people like this will emerge as time passes. My hope is that enough people are willing to put their money where their mouth is when it comes time to enter their CC#.  Even maintenance mode will cost money to operate, and if it's a money-loser from month to month then there's not going to be much incentive to keep it running.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shadowe on September 02, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
Every time I read this thread title I think "And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for these meddling kids".

So, if I understand this all correctly:

City of Heroes as an Intellectual Property gets purchased by a company/trust/group/whatever.
Said group licenses the i23 game from NCSoft and runs maintenance mode servers.
Said group licenses a design studio to port existing City of Heroes to a new engine (U4).
Said group also (possibly) licenses the various successor projects, allowing them to use City of Heroes IP in their work.

At an indeterminate point in time, i23 game closes (license from NCSoft is no longer required) and City of Heroes in U4 becomes the sole City of Heroes game available, in a modern engine, with continuing development.

Some of these stages may occur concurrently.

If I'm right, can I get a HELL YES?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on September 02, 2014, 10:44:24 AM
Can someone enlighten me to as what the source code would be exactly? Is that different from the game engine?

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 10:58:33 AM
Every time I read this thread title I think "And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for these meddling kids".

So, if I understand this all correctly:

City of Heroes as an Intellectual Property gets purchased by a company/trust/group/whatever.
Said group licenses the i23 game from NCSoft and runs maintenance mode servers.
Said group licenses a design studio to port existing City of Heroes to a new engine (U4).
Said group also (possibly) licenses the various successor projects, allowing them to use City of Heroes IP in their work.

At an indeterminate point in time, i23 game closes (license from NCSoft is no longer required) and City of Heroes in U4 becomes the sole City of Heroes game available, in a modern engine, with continuing development.

Some of these stages may occur concurrently.

If I'm right, can I get a HELL YES?

I think you're mostly wise in this instance, apart from one part.

The "Classic COH" servers wouldn't necessarily have to shut down at any point at all for the U4 engined version, though I suspect it eventually would.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 11:01:08 AM
Can someone enlighten me to as what the source code would be exactly? Is that different from the game engine?

Source code is the huge list of instructions from which the game is created.  Like a novel isn't a novel without the words that make up the sentences that form the chapters that make the story.

The game engine is just a term used to describe the code that displays the game world to the players.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: TinFoil on September 02, 2014, 11:06:29 AM
Can someone enlighten me to as what the source code would be exactly? Is that different from the game engine?

The source code is the actual programming of the game. It is what tells a Fireblast to do 30 damage. Having the source code would allow folks to change that value to 40 damage or 15 damage. The game engine is basically the collection of all the source code running together to allow you to move around and actually play the game. The Binary (which is what the proposal is to obtain) is all that source code and game engine packaged up and ready to run. Folks controlling it won't be able to make changes, but we'll still have the finished package to play.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Stealth Dart on September 02, 2014, 11:08:03 AM
I would like to address some other concerns.  One.  That Missing Worlds Media is using funds from the Kickstarter for the new holding company purchasing the COH Intellectual Property.  This is not so.  Funds from the Kickstarter raised for City of Titans are designated for City of Titans.  New funds will need to be raised separately at some point for the COH revival should the deal with NCSoft get approved.

That MWM somehow misused their funding to switch game engines from Unreal Engine 3 to Unreal Engine 4.  And that this transition set them back irreparably.
Unreal Engine 3 has zero MMO support.  Meaning that MWM would have had to either create their own code for handling the MMO portion of the game, or contract a third party to do so.  Such would have taken an unknown amount of time.  Unreal Engine 4 on the other hand has built in MMO support.  This is why when MWM was offered the chance to upgrade their licenses to the newer version they did so enthusiastically.  As this would be one less thing to have to work out. 

As to the setbacks...that has to do with the character rig on which our avatars will be built upon.  MWM was a little too ambitious with the amount of sockets the character rigs could hold and to how many pieces would make up the rig, and where their seams connected the pieces together would look and work in their game engine.  Some of the seams did not move properly once the rig was in motion.  Too many sockets used up too many resources leading to instability. 

It is my understanding that they are on the third iteration of the character rig.  Once all the kinks are worked out progress will proceed.  While this sets back the avatar builder somewhat it does not affect other portions of the game such as the background world building, lore, or art assets being created.  There are multiple paths all being worked on simultaneously.

Just because other Kickstarter projects have failed does not mean that this project has to fail.  As with any project their is a risk of failure.  There is also the possibility of success.  I prefer to be enthusiastically supportive of City of Titans and why I have contributed to the Kickstarter campaign.  If they start a new Kickstarter to revive City Of Heroes, I will contribute to that as well.  We can all be naysayers and be negative and say that all of this is a pipe dream and give up our hopes or we can be positive and look to a brighter tomorrow.  I prefer to do the latter.  Nuff said.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: thunderforce on September 02, 2014, 11:14:14 AM
This is excellent news, of course, but I wonder if we should be concerned about the implications for City of Titans (and the other successor projects, if they come to fruition). Realistically, a rejuvenated CoH - let alone a CoH/APR being actively updated - cuts their potential customer base (and the motivation for their project) drastically. I hope it's not going to wither on the vine (at the very least, I hope any successor project that does fold allows the others to use its assets...)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Safehouse on September 02, 2014, 11:18:40 AM
Wow! This is... better than I thought we might get, even though I know it's not a done deal.

I kind of hoped that i24 might be on the table, but I did not expect that to be the case. I kind of assumed that, if the game were going to come back, it would probably be in maintenance mode. Again, that's okay with me. Even without having character data, I'm actually okay with it. A part of me would even kind of enjoy starting from scratch. We would all be in it together, supporting each other on the climb back to 50.

What I did NOT expect was the inclusion of APR, CoT, etc etc etc. To me, that is a HUGELY wonderful thing! How I read that was that yes, CoH would come back in i23 maintenance mode, but then we would know that it was working its way onto UE4 for a semi-but-not-quite-sequel. Based on the stuff I've seen of APR, it would be in pretty great hands. I am praying so hard to see this go through. Honestly, I think it would be a great deal.

Thank you, to those of you who have been working so hard to get us this far. I hope to see you in the City, to have the opportunity to team up with you or just express my thanks in-game.

Thank you, Irish-Girl; you have been so good at answering everyone's questions, and your work with APR is lookin' solid so far!

Thanks Nate/downix, for the update on where we stood. I was getting antsy, but now that I have a sense of where we're going I can wait a little longer.

And thank you to everyone else who has been instrumental to the NCSoft deal getting this far!

To celebrate, I will listen to the CoH soundtrack all day at work today! Especially that Ouroboros music. Love me that Ouroboros music (watched the Ouroboros APR recreation on youtube this morning).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 02, 2014, 11:20:07 AM

That MWM somehow misused their funding to switch game engines from Unreal Engine 3 to Unreal Engine 4.  And that this transition set them back irreparably.
Unreal Engine 3 has zero MMO support.  Meaning that MWM would have had to either create their own code for handling the MMO portion of the game, or contract a third party to do so.  Such would have taken an unknown amount of time.  Unreal Engine 4 on the other hand has built in MMO support.  This is why when MWM was offered the chance to upgrade their licenses to the newer version they did so enthusiastically.  As this would be one less thing to have to work out. 

This is an exceptionally prudent choice, by my understanding of things. I'm part of a small indie studio that's just starting out, and our lead codemonkey has raved about the wonders of UE4.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: nactishe on September 02, 2014, 11:21:35 AM
Why not book a meeting with Taek Jin Kim, and two or three of you get on a plane to Korea? I would help fund such a visit, and I'm sure others would as well. It wouldn't be that expensive if you fly economy. You can schedule a meeting directly with Taek via the executive admin call direct, they all speak very good english (as most attended school in USA). I think its awesome what you guys are doing, but there us nothing better than a face-to-face meeting. Especially with Korean business.

whadya think? up for the trip? let us know how to help fund it!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: parabola on September 02, 2014, 11:28:29 AM
Source code vs compiled (binary). Source code is the understandable language used to write a program using some kind of editor. The languages vary but they tend to look like reasonably normal language with commands in English words. So 10 print "hello world", 20 goto 10 is an example of source code. However a computer can't directly run this. It compiles this into binary which is going to something like 10011010001011011110etcetc. You can imagine the sheer scale of the 1's and 0's for something the size of coh. Even if you have the source you need the tool used to interpret it or you'll also be left with gibberish. So no source and no tools essentially means a program that can be run but that can't be developed at all.

Endless thanks to all involved in this. If funds ever become an issue please let us know!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: silvers1 on September 02, 2014, 11:31:20 AM

At an indeterminate point in time, i23 game closes (license from NCSoft is no longer required) and City of Heroes in U4 becomes the sole City of Heroes game available, in a modern engine, with continuing development.


My big concern about all this, at some point when the "COH 1.5" game  goes live, do our characters from the I23 servers get ported over, or do we have to start all over again?  Personally, I would have to wait until the newer game goes live - I don't care to do the leveling grind twice.  Not to mention the iTrials grind.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Stealth Dart on September 02, 2014, 11:34:29 AM
To save on heartbreak, there are no promises being made that you will be able to transfer your I23 build characters to COH 1.5.  They will cross that bridge when they get there as it were... 8)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Gamerchamp on September 02, 2014, 11:34:42 AM
Hello guys just wanted to thank each and everyone involved in all these efforts past and future what you guys are doing right now will go down in history for sure.

We will definitely be backing you up so please don't hesitate to ask for help we will be happy to provide it keep doing what your doing because you all just plain rock.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: blacksly on September 02, 2014, 11:39:22 AM
Have no fear, I'm pretty sure I can fish up the binary offsets for the Regen powers in order to reduce their effectiveness periodically.

It wouldn't be a new issue without a Regen nerf ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Wulfen on September 02, 2014, 11:40:45 AM
If this gets pulled off, this will be awesome.  Since after the proposed port to UE4 is completed, the game can once again begin expanding.  With a (possible) link to the 'successor games' they could be construed as different cities in the same world/universe.

World of Heroes!  Universe of Heroes! Multiverse of Heroes!  (and Villains lol)

Plus additions to Paragon City.

On that note, will Mission Architect still be active?  (I assume and hope so) with Player Generated Content being generated again, then the players will help expand the universe that way as well.

Anything I can do, I will.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 11:41:08 AM
Here is an example pic of Atlas Park in Unreal Engine.  http://apr.pc-logix.com/uploads/gallery/album_1/gallery_1_1_14817.jpg

I much prefer this picture.  8)
(See spoiler)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/p180x540/1966260_274962145997342_2074759972_o.jpg)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Safehouse on September 02, 2014, 11:42:50 AM
I much prefer this picture.  8)
(See spoiler)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/p180x540/1966260_274962145997342_2074759972_o.jpg)

I like this so hard.

It also makes me want to play the game so badly it hurts, haha! For now, at least, that's what dreams are for :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AnElfCalledMack on September 02, 2014, 11:44:17 AM
Can someone enlighten me to as what the source code would be exactly? Is that different from the game engine?
So, when you write a program you use a programming language, like C# or Python. This lets you use a series of preset commands, and to define your own commands for later use. The source code is basically a text file that contains a whole bunch of words and punctuation in that language that says what you want the program to do under any and all circumstances. But computers aren't very good with words. They need their instructions in as simple a form as possible, which is called "machine code" or a "binary file". Also an "executable file", because the computer can just do what it says. A compiler takes the text file full of words, and turns it into binary instructions the processor can understand. But editing machine code is very difficult, especially for something as big as a full game. Some people can do it, but it's slow, laborious, and prone to devastating errors. Doing enough work to add entire powersets (like adding i24 would involve) is theoretically possible, but the timescale would be immense. Like, decades or more.

The game engine is what makes the game's variables change. It's what rolls to hit, makes a bad guy's HP go down when you hit them with a power, and gives you inf and a chance at drops when you defeat them. The game engine and the game client (which has all the art, maps, effects, text, etc) both have source code, designed to interact in a bunch of ways to let you play the game and see the same world as everyone else. But it's the binary files, the machine code, that actually let them work. So if NCSoft released binaries for the server and client, you'd be able to play, but not edit. If they released the source code, you could edit to your heart's content, but you'd need to find or build a compiler before you could use the modified game code.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: SypherVendetta on September 02, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
That MWM somehow misused their funding to switch game engines from Unreal Engine 3 to Unreal Engine 4.  And that this transition set them back irreparably.
Unreal Engine 3 has zero MMO support.  Meaning that MWM would have had to either create their own code for handling the MMO portion of the game, or contract a third party to do so.  Such would have taken an unknown amount of time.  Unreal Engine 4 on the other hand has built in MMO support.  This is why when MWM was offered the chance to upgrade their licenses to the newer version they did so enthusiastically.  As this would be one less thing to have to work out. 

Marvel Heroes uses unreal engine 3 and it is an arpg mmo, and it has become really popular and tons of fun now, so to say UE3 has zero mmo support is well wrong.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 11:46:05 AM
Irish_Girl can correct me if I am incorrect in any of my understandings of this project.   ;D

And no, Your post seems pretty spot on.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: blacksly on September 02, 2014, 11:46:11 AM
Windows 9: Muffin Edition?

Editable, not edible.
Or... maybe edible is better.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Gamerchamp on September 02, 2014, 11:48:09 AM
I much prefer this picture.  8)
(See spoiler)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/p180x540/1966260_274962145997342_2074759972_o.jpg)

Wow so that's what Atlas Park looks like in Unreal 4 that is just stunning just imagine what the rest would look like *drools*.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 11:50:49 AM
Marvel Heroes uses unreal engine 3 and it is an arpg mmo, and it has become really popular and tons of fun now, so to say UE3 has zero mmo support is well wrong.

UDK/UE3 had horrendous MMO support. Most MMOs that used UE3 had to implement a lot of things themselves. While yes, there are MMOs that use UE3, It's far from Ideal.
I remember a certain very, very long day with Neo and myself working on APR trying to figure out HOW to make it act like an MMO.

For us, it was far FAR less time and effort to move to Unreal Engine 4, than it would have to try and fight with UE3. Plus, the engine is just SO much easier to work with.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Stealth Dart on September 02, 2014, 11:51:56 AM
I much prefer this picture.  8)
(See spoiler)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/p180x540/1966260_274962145997342_2074759972_o.jpg)

That was the picture I was actually looking for.... ;D

I so want to go there...  ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 11:53:23 AM
That was the picture I was actually looking for.... ;D

I so want to go there...  ;)

;D Yeah, It's pretty. You guys should see it in-game. hehe.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 11:55:53 AM
For us, it was far FAR less time and effort to move to Unreal Engine 4, than it would have to try and fight with UE3. Plus, the engine is just SO much easier to work with.

So, for the curious, would it be possible to enlighten us as to the current state of progress in APR?  Do you have any zones "finished"?  Can you walk around in any of them? Is there any kind of character creation in the works?

Also, just as an aside, are you re-creating the map geometries from scratch, or are you importing it from the game files?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: kiario on September 02, 2014, 11:56:13 AM
;D Yeah, It's pretty. You guys should see it in-game. hehe.

Is that what the team has been proving to NCsoft :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
;D Yeah, It's pretty. You guys should see it in-game. hehe.

Well, you could always crank up FRAPS and show us... ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 11:58:04 AM
Is that what the team has been proving to NCsoft :)

So far as I know, NCSoft hasn't seen anything from Revival. I'm not directly part of the purchasing effort, so I'm not privy to what they show NC.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 02, 2014, 12:10:15 PM
 Its great to see that Nc Soft is actually talking and open to possibly selling the IP, but we have a long way to go still. I applaud everyone who has worked on this to #SaveCoH.

 I am still hopeful that somehow character data can be rescued. One of my biggest concerns if character data is not available are that many veterans will not return to the game. I was thinking about this last night and im coming from my own personal view and I know the shared views of others.. Its twelve years later since the launch of City of Heroes. I am not the person I was then. I am married now.. with a family.. different responsibilities that require more time. I dont have the time to sit and play hours and hours and hours on end like I did previously. And in all honesty I dont want to play the same content over and over and over AGAIN that I already have. If I had to start over and remake every character and earn and purchase all those enhancements all over again I just dont know if I would want to do that. Would I remake everyone.. no.. but they are some core character that I would and even those are 25-30 plus characters..

 And having no idea what will happen to the maintenance mode long term or if those character will be ported over to CoH 1.5... Its a very challenging situation.. I know several people in my SG that I have remained in contact with feel the same way..

 Everyone of us will ABSOLUTELY play if/when the games comes back. The question is will they support the game like they did in years past.. will they stay long term..

 At this point im taking the Tony V position more seriously.. be patient.. and wait until everything unfolds..
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 12:16:47 PM
So, for the curious, would it be possible to enlighten us as to the current state of progress in APR?  Do you have any zones "finished"?  Can you walk around in any of them? Is there any kind of character creation in the works?
Also, just as an aside, are you re-creating the map geometries from scratch, or are you importing it from the game files?

I suppose I could be convinced to bring some APR-related enlightenment to the masses.
Let's see here... Zone wise...

Atlas Park - The zone with the most work into it, by far. Perhaps 70% finished. All the streets are laid out, many of the buildings are in place, Trees are even starting to be put down in places.
Steel Canyon - 20-30% completed
Galaxy City - 20-30% completed
Independence Port - 10% completed
Founders Falls - 20-30% completed
Talos Island 10-20%
Perez Park - 10%
"The Hollows" - 10%
Sirens Call - 5%
Pocket D - 50%
and of course, the zone we unveiled our move to Unreal Engine 4 with...
Ouroboros - 95%

Technically, I can walk around any of the zones atm. I'm nothing but a Rikti Drone, and I've got no powers or anything.
Since we're going to be using a version of the City of Titans UE4 build, more work on character creation and powers and what have you is dependent on their work schedule. Not that APR is lacking in work in the mean time!

The geometries from the meshes are currently mostly pulled from Legacy CoH, but rarely are they un-modified. Many meshes have simply had to be re-built from scratch for one reason or another.
Don't even get me started on textures. -shakes head- 64x64 textures for the sides of buildings might have cut it in 2004.

I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff...I really should write all this down. heh
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 12:22:32 PM
I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff...I really should write all this down. heh

Neat!

It's fascinating stuff, too!  How much work was involved in the Town Hall building, as an example?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ukaserex on September 02, 2014, 12:33:27 PM
Its great to see that Nc Soft is actually talking and open to possibly selling the IP, but we have a long way to go still. I applaud everyone who has worked on this to #SaveCoH.

 I am still hopeful that somehow character data can be rescued. One of my biggest concerns if character data is not available are that many veterans will not return to the game. I was thinking about this last night and im coming from my own personal view and I know the shared views of others.. Its twelve years later since the launch of City of Heroes. I am not the person I was then. I am married now.. with a family.. different responsibilities that require more time. I dont have the time to sit and play hours and hours and hours on end like I did previously. And in all honesty I dont want to play the same content over and over and over AGAIN that I already have. If I had to start over and remake every character and earn and purchase all those enhancements all over again I just dont know if I would want to do that. Would I remake everyone.. no.. but they are some core character that I would and even those are 25-30 plus characters..

 And having no idea what will happen to the maintenance mode long term or if those character will be ported over to CoH 1.5... Its a very challenging situation.. I know several people in my SG that I have remained in contact with feel the same way..

 Everyone of us will ABSOLUTELY play if/when the games comes back. The question is will they support the game like they did in years past.. will they stay long term..

 At this point im taking the Tony V position more seriously.. be patient.. and wait until everything unfolds..

At the risk of being a little late for work, Heatstroke, I think many of us vet players can relate to your position. Am I looking forward to finding the time to clobber 1000's of Longbow, or waiting possibly years until enough people have incarnate level characters and we can form a large enough league with enough savvy players to take down Marcus Cole in The Really Hard Way badge effort?

Short answer is, "Heck yeah!".

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying this. You'll have help in getting all the things you want in game, pretty much every step of the way, regardless of what server you call home.
This time around, there will be things that we'll see that we missed the first twenty or thirty times around. At least, I'm pretty sure I will.

Gotta jet.
And yeah, patience is a virtue - and kind of like a muscle. Use it or lose it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 12:37:24 PM
Neat!

It's fascinating stuff, too!  How much work was involved in the Town Hall building, as an example?

Town hall... If I never have to work on that building again, It'll be too soon.
Heh, Sorry. The town hall was the very first building I started working on. I was pretty much learning everything as I went, as well.

Basically, for any standard object. I use a method that I picked up waaay back when from Arcanaville, to pull a capture of CoH as it's running. (Thank you, Demos.)
This capture is a huge mess of everything that's being rendered at that time. So if I want, say, the Blimp. I have to pick out the blimp, and delete everything else. (Which can sometimes be quite a pain). Next up is making sure the model doesn't need any editing, some of the old models are...old. But we'll skip that for now.
The next part is by far my least favorite: re-skinning the UVW Mapping. Basically, in non-game-dev speak, this means attaching the texture so it shows correctly. So that the numbers on the side of our blimp are, well, actually in the correct spot. This is not an easy process, nor a fun one.
If everything looks good, I export the model and then import it to Unreal 4.
...Then I realize I did something wrong, and have to go back and fix it. Repeat that a few times.

A simple object like a trash can might take an hour, one of the pretty skyscrapers in Atlas Park tends to take a few days.

TL;DR: City Hall is my most hated object in Atlas Park now.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 12:40:11 PM
TL;DR: City Hall is my most hated object in Atlas Park now.

Well, in that case... I'm sure I read somewhere that UE4 makes destructible objects easy to do... ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 12:43:11 PM
Well, in that case... I'm sure I read somewhere that UE4 makes destructible objects easy to do... ;)

REALLY early back in APR's development, still in UE3, I was seriously considering making the entire zone destroyable... lol.
I should have taken pictures of the statue of Atlas, shot to pieces. lol.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fridgy Daiere on September 02, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
Personally, if I'd known there was a discussion in progress with NCsoft, I wouldn't have then gone out and asked folks for money to fund the spiritual successor of a game that I was actively (but quietly) trying to buy back. That alone has all sorts of red flags - but I digress.

The single largest obstacle for any of the successor projects was holding the community together long enough to release the games.  It's like the "be back" rule of sales: if the customer leaves the premises saying "I'll be back," statistically he WON'T be back.  The goal then, is to keep him in the store until the sale is final.

In this scenario, going for the IP and launching CoX in maintenance mode enables all of the successor projects to keep us in the store, as it were.  Instead of the fanbase scattering to the four winds--making later marketing of the new products much more difficult for any of the new projects--we will be nicely grouped.  Instead of CoX being a distant fond memory, it will be fresh on our minds, again making marketing of the new games much more efficacious.

Rather than raising red flags, this strategy displays both business acumen and a strong sense of fair play.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on September 02, 2014, 01:10:59 PM
For the EQ and WoW private servers I have knowledge of, it's replacing a single file, or even just manually editing an IP or two in the file already on your machine to point at the new servers. Pretty easy stuff if you have more computer knowledge than the average grandma. Haven't poked around in my i23 install but I can't see it being drastically different for CoH.
Literally running the executable with an extra parameter. Can be solved with a custom launcher easily.
Would someone be kind enough to PM and explain what SCoRE is.  I think I know, and Ive found a blog site by that name associated with CoH.
Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers.
I don't know exactly what APR/cox 1.5 really is, or how they are moving to unreal engine. Are they just building it from scratch and including the old environment and missions etc?
Yes.
My question is, if the binaries are turned over, and the IP rights are licensed, does that give the new device group the ability to legally reverse engineer the server? Would that even be worthwhile? I don't know if reverse engineering would make Cox 1.5 easier or not. If nothing else it could at least give them the ability to do updates to the original game.
It would not affect CoX 1.5 much if at all. If it becomes legal to reverse engineer the server and there is a live instance, I believe it would aid SCoRE's efforts quite a bit.
I'm totally ok with this, but my question based on that is.... Does that mean when Win 9 is released, the maintenance mode CoH is effectively shut down? Or, does it mean that the maintenance mode will run in perpetuity and Win 9 users simply won't be able to play the game? (I say this because I don't plan on upgrading to Win 9....also, some of us play CoH on OS X)...
The latter, as far a I understand.
tony one issue that been posted is a red flag to me. they posted that coh would be in maintenance mode till windows 9 comes out.
No, they didn't. What Nate said is that they are expecting Windows 9 to have compatibility problems with the game. If that is the case, it will become an issue by the time Win 9 gets widely adopted (unless you keep an XP/ 7 / 8 system around), but by then CoH 1.5 should be available as a replacement. I'm guessing there may be some sort of second sunset after the majority of the player base switches to CoH 1.5
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 02, 2014, 01:12:01 PM
So for those asking what is APR?   :o

APR stands for Atlas Park Revival.  What is Atlas Park Revival?  :-\

Atlas Park Revival is Irish_Girl's project to take the existing geometries...the meshes as it were of the existing environment of City of Heroes and recreate them using Unreal Engine.  To what end?  To create the environment for an updated City of Heroes game with a newer game engine.  So while the Issue23 build of City of Heroes will not be able to be updated at all due to lack of the original source code.  APR will be using a license from the COT (City of Titans) build, which uses Unreal Engine 4, to make the next generation of City of Heroes.  Same COH IP, similar COH game play, updated graphics and capabilities.  What is being dubbed City of Heroes 1.5.  This version will be able to be updated with new content, power sets, story arcs etc.

Irish_Girl can correct me if I am incorrect in any of my understandings of this project.   ;D

Here is the link to the webpage.  http://apr.pc-logix.com/

Here is an example pic of Atlas Park in Unreal Engine.  http://apr.pc-logix.com/uploads/gallery/album_1/gallery_1_1_14817.jpg

Here is a video done in Unreal Engine.  http://youtu.be/Bg_xIAekCys

That looks fantastic and I am very impressed with the whole shebang!   My main concern is that it would take way too long to bring this project to completion even with a large team of volunteers who knew what they were doing but were working for free around their "real jobs, lives and families."

That being said, sign me up, Irish_Girl!   ;D  I really want to volunteer my help with this project (and getting the CoH backup running) if the NCSoft talks don't go south on everyone.  I'm an Irish Girl myself (okay, not so much a girl, I'm 48), currently in college for Digital Forensics.  I'm more of a hardware person by nature but I need to learn code inside and out anyway.  So what do you use?  C?  Point me in a direction and I will go there.  Incidentally, my daughter does 3D modeling for SOE games (they hired her while she was still in high school off some Blender samples she sent them) and would like to get involved should this project go live as well.  She does do basic coding too but she's really more into 3D modeling. 

Send me a PM.  Hit us up. 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shadowe on September 02, 2014, 01:27:20 PM
I think you're mostly wise in this instance, apart from one part.

The "Classic COH" servers wouldn't necessarily have to shut down at any point at all for the U4 engined version, though I suspect it eventually would.

Thanks for the Sig addition, squire!

And I finally remembered where my avatar image is stored online. Everyone loves a unique David Nakayama original.

To be even slightly on-topic about this, while I'm aware this isn't even remotely a done deal, the direction this is going is awesome, to be frank (join the army).

I eagerly anticipate more news!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: smokesignal on September 02, 2014, 01:40:55 PM
Amazing work and outstanding effort. Please be assured that even if some vets like myself seem absent and uninvolved, we remain attentive and excited. I don't care if I have to start at level one with absolutely nothing, I'll be there in my tights ready to throw fire.

Love.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FreckledAvenger on September 02, 2014, 01:48:33 PM
*comes out of deep lurker mode*

This is really good news. REALLY. Even though nothing's set in stone yet, it's amazing to hear about the effort that you all have put in to keep the hope alive.

And like many have said before me, I'm ready with wallet or skills or both to help out however I can!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hobgoblin Steve on September 02, 2014, 01:57:22 PM
Amazing work and outstanding effort. Please be assured that even if some vets like myself seem absent and uninvolved, we remain attentive and excited. I don't care if I have to start at level one with absolutely nothing, I'll be there in my tights ready to throw fire.

Love.

Id like to quote this for truth, as someone who checks this board a million times a day for updates :)

Thanks to everyone involved, we can't wait
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Turgenev on September 02, 2014, 01:58:27 PM
Question on "binary compatibility" with Windows 9. Is there more detail on what the incompatibility is?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 01:59:50 PM
Question on "binary compatibility" with Windows 9. Is there more detail on what the incompatibility is?

It's an assumption, and a pretty unlikely one at that.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 02, 2014, 02:00:48 PM
I see a lot of possibilities and it is great that the team is thinking out of the box.

For those worried about the Original CoH shutting down - this opens the possibility that you may be able to fund your own server. If you have funds once the game is in escrow and you can load that snapshot onto a server - nothing would stop you from leasing your own copy and hosting a server.

All of the other folks can now license to actually use all the old lore in their game. I see a lot of continuity for the game this way. If you only ever want to play the old game - it will eventually fade away, but now it may live in many other ways and even that fading could take years to come. This is honestly better than what I had hoped for - now we just need to see if NCSoft is indeed actually open to the discussion.

Well done all and this is just step one. More work to be done and I am inspired!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on September 02, 2014, 02:04:27 PM
Question on "binary compatibility" with Windows 9. Is there more detail on what the incompatibility is?
There is as far as we know no actual incompatibility discovered yet. The issue is that when there is one - because that will eventually happen, if not with plain Win 9 then with Win 9 SP 1 (or whatever SP-equivalent terminology is used) or whatever comes after that - there won't be any way to patch the game and fix it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ohioknight on September 02, 2014, 02:05:36 PM
Quote from: lapucelle link=topic=10284.msg158440#msg158440 date=1 The game itself,409626127
Remember, the engine is different from the game. The engine is simply what renders and runs the game. the rules and art and everything, are IP.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 02, 2014, 02:27:00 PM
There is as far as we know no actual incompatibility discovered yet. The issue is that when there is one - because that will eventually happen, if not with plain Win 9 then with Win 9 SP 1 (or whatever SP-equivalent terminology is used) or whatever comes after that - there won't be any way to patch the game and fix it.
Another thing is how long will it take to get people to move to Win 9?

I know many folks still use WinXp and Windows 7. Developers want to future proof their product - users tend to hold on to the old until it won't do what they want it to.

The good part of this is the old game if this is simply a snapshot of the last server backup would be quick to get running. To get the accounting side done would take longer than to get the game up I would imagine.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: epawtows on September 02, 2014, 02:28:57 PM
I am curious. Would we have the ability to edit and add content to the CoH 1.5 version?

While I believe this has been answered by others already, since the question was directed at me:

Yes, content could be added to the CoH 1.5 version (that would be the version that runs in Unreal4, as opposed to CoH 1.0, the legacy CoH engine). 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Potajito on September 02, 2014, 02:36:46 PM
God this makes me so happy. Now let us give you our money!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 03:03:14 PM
So for those asking what is APR?   :o

APR stands for Atlas Park Revival.  What is Atlas Park Revival?  :-\

Atlas Park Revival is Irish_Girl's project to take the existing geometries...the meshes as it were of the existing environment of City of Heroes and recreate them using Unreal Engine.  To what end?  To create the environment for an updated City of Heroes game with a newer game engine.  So while the Issue23 build of City of Heroes will not be able to be updated at all due to lack of the original source code.  APR will be using a license from the COT (City of Titans) build, which uses Unreal Engine 4, to make the next generation of City of Heroes.  Same COH IP, similar COH game play, updated graphics and capabilities.  What is being dubbed City of Heroes 1.5.  This version will be able to be updated with new content, power sets, story arcs etc.
"Similar game play" sounds more vague than what Irish Girl posted yesterday.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 03:07:54 PM
I suppose I could be convinced to bring some APR-related enlightenment to the masses.
Let's see here... Zone wise...

Atlas Park - The zone with the most work into it, by far. Perhaps 70% finished. All the streets are laid out, many of the buildings are in place, Trees are even starting to be put down in places.
Steel Canyon - 20-30% completed
Galaxy City - 20-30% completed
Independence Port - 10% completed
Founders Falls - 20-30% completed
Talos Island 10-20%
Perez Park - 10%
"The Hollows" - 10%
Sirens Call - 5%
Pocket D - 50%
and of course, the zone we unveiled our move to Unreal Engine 4 with...
Ouroboros - 95%

Technically, I can walk around any of the zones atm. I'm nothing but a Rikti Drone, and I've got no powers or anything.
Since we're going to be using a version of the City of Titans UE4 build, more work on character creation and powers and what have you is dependent on their work schedule. Not that APR is lacking in work in the mean time!

The geometries from the meshes are currently mostly pulled from Legacy CoH, but rarely are they un-modified. Many meshes have simply had to be re-built from scratch for one reason or another.
Don't even get me started on textures. -shakes head- 64x64 textures for the sides of buildings might have cut it in 2004.

I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff...I really should write all this down. heh
I would be willing to watch a video of you walking around in those zones.  Not boring at all to me.  :D

I see a lot of possibilities and it is great that the team is thinking out of the box.

For those worried about the Original CoH shutting down - this opens the possibility that you may be able to fund your own server. If you have funds once the game is in escrow and you can load that snapshot onto a server - nothing would stop you from leasing your own copy and hosting a server.
That's very cool....this would be a reason to think the game is never going away again.

I am still hopeful that somehow character data can be rescued. One of my biggest concerns if character data is not available are that many veterans will not return to the game. I was thinking about this last night and im coming from my own personal view and I know the shared views of others.. Its twelve years later since the launch of City of Heroes. I am not the person I was then. I am married now.. with a family.. different responsibilities that require more time. I dont have the time to sit and play hours and hours and hours on end like I did previously. And in all honesty I dont want to play the same content over and over and over AGAIN that I already have. If I had to start over and remake every character and earn and purchase all those enhancements all over again I just dont know if I would want to do that. Would I remake everyone.. no.. but they are some core character that I would and even those are 25-30 plus characters..
I just ran into this issue this morning.  I used to play with a married couple and we hung out on Skype while we played.   They, like me, played almost exclusively with lvl 50 characters.   We ran the various TF's together mostly.   The guy was way more into tricking out his characters with purples than I was.   We used to get into discussions about the merits of frankenslotting vs all purple sets.   He always went with purple sets no matter what.   Anyway...

I kept him up to date on all this and sent him a message last night with what we just heard.   He just came out and said he wouldn't come back without his characters.  (He had a LOT more 50s than I did so would be losing much more)  That's two accounts lost right there.   

I'll be coming back of course.  I used to run two accounts because I liked to dual-box and team different characters together for fun.   I'll probably run two accounts again...can't be sure though.  The incentive for that won't be there at the beginning with a "fresh start".   A lot will depend on how quick I can get a couple of my old favorites back to 50 in playing shape again.   A little worried about my two Tankers I tended to play a couple of times a month.   I was a good enough Tanker for radio mishes and stuff, but wouldn't dare try to tank a TF.   Something tells me my Tankers won't be coming back.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Marshman on September 02, 2014, 03:10:30 PM
Well, I wasn't planning on staying solo! Especially since I code one BUGGY Hello World.


Hahaha!!  That line is extremely funny to programmers or former programmers over 40.  LOL.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 03:15:55 PM
I kept him up to date on all this and sent him a message last night with what we just heard.   He just came out and said he wouldn't come back without his characters.  (He had a LOT more 50s than I did so would be losing much more)  That's two accounts lost right there.   

A bit of a short sighted view, really. Sure, he's lost his stuff, BUT, right now all his stuff is gone anyway. In fact, we might ALL just consider all of that stuff deleted and gone for ever.  I don't see that as a reason not to go back to the game though.. After all, it wasn't the stuff we loved, it was the game and the community, wasn't it?

If love of the stuff was more important than the love of the game, then I guess he never really loved the game anyway.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hejtmane on September 02, 2014, 03:16:09 PM
"Similar game play" sounds more vague than what Irish Girl posted yesterday.

There is a reason for the vague they have to get a team together (if NCSoft makes the sale) start having discussion with who ever the lead is on vision and what directions they want to take the storyline and game play. Also they have to convert from one engine to another so some things may not translate the same for what ever reason.

Heck UO is still running and it came out in 1997 and the game play changed over the years and had to change to keep working in the new OS not everything but parts of it had to change to keep the game running.

The reality is technology changes and you either change with it or it goes away

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Teikiatsu on September 02, 2014, 03:17:18 PM
I kept him up to date on all this and sent him a message last night with what we just heard.   He just came out and said he wouldn't come back without his characters.  (He had a LOT more 50s than I did so would be losing much more)  That's two accounts lost right there.   

Time will tell.  After putting time and effort into something it's understandable that his immediate reaction is to wall up and not want to return. After a few days or weeks he may soften up and be willing to think about starting over.  What did he say about CoH2?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 03:19:01 PM
"Similar game play" sounds more vague than what Irish Girl posted yesterday.

Even if all the game mechanics are copied exactly in CoH1.5 (which is the intent), it will STILL only play "similarly".

The only way you'll get identical gameplay, is in the original game, and even THAT has changed over the years. Really, read the box.  You'll find similar words to "Gameplay experience may change over time" printed on there.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: DragonLord on September 02, 2014, 03:25:08 PM
I'm just like most of you very excited with the news from yesterday , I've watching these forums since Hail Mary started, been following it wherever and whenever I could checking back every so often for news of coh return. I would love to get the whole game back as a whole, but even if we don't they are going to get my full support . I came in to coh as one of the first beta tester group of people they sent emails too ,  the first hour I played it I was hooked and there I stayed till the end. I met a lot of great people over the years on coh , we played on just about every server because we filled up all of our slots before they gave of the chance to buy more slots, that added to the obsession for building more toons to play. We began on Justice as The Freedom Force, and then we branched out to the other servers under Alt-Holic Anonymous. I can't wait till the day that we get the word to login.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 03:25:47 PM
I am curious. Would we have the ability to edit and add content to the CoH 1.5 version?


That's very much up in the air as it's know parts of the toolset just aren't there anymore and what is is informationally incomplete.

*edit* Yay Reading comprehension.  More coffee before posts. That answer applies to CoHi23, not the 1.5/UE4 Adaptation.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Von Krieger on September 02, 2014, 03:29:23 PM
I know many folks still use WinXp and Windows 7. Developers want to future proof their product - users tend to hold on to the old until it won't do what they want it to.

I went kicking and screaming and had to be dragged from Windows XP by the near total lack of support/drivers for XP64.

So when I got a new PC, I went with Windows 7. I then proceeded to bludgeon it with a half a dozen programs so that the bloody thing looked and worked like Windows XP.

Like the changed Start > All Programs functionality, screw the new arrangement, I'm working off the better part of two decades worth of muscle memory. That was the first thing I changed. :P
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 03:31:27 PM
So when I got a new PC, I went with Windows 7. I then proceeded to bludgeon it with a half a dozen programs so that the bloody thing looked and worked like Windows XP.

What a horrible thing to do to Windows 7! The poor thing! You mutilated it!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hejtmane on September 02, 2014, 03:37:05 PM
I went kicking and screaming and had to be dragged from Windows XP by the near total lack of support/drivers for XP64.

So when I got a new PC, I went with Windows 7. I then proceeded to bludgeon it with a half a dozen programs so that the bloody thing looked and worked like Windows XP.

Like the changed Start > All Programs functionality, screw the new arrangement, I'm working off the better part of two decades worth of muscle memory. That was the first thing I changed. :P

I left as is when I upgraded to win7 but I do Infrastructure support so I have to keep up with the changes my main WS at work for my job is a server OS I been using 2008r2 for about 3 years now as my workstation. I have to deal with anything from 2012r2 to 2003 so my muscle memory is screwed having to hop between all the differences amazing you will start typing a command and you are like crap that does not work in that OS and have to remember what the old one is  :P
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 03:46:01 PM
A bit of a short sighted view, really. Sure, he's lost his stuff, BUT, right now all his stuff is gone anyway. In fact, we might ALL just consider all of that stuff deleted and gone for ever.  I don't see that as a reason not to go back to the game though.. After all, it wasn't the stuff we loved, it was the game and the community, wasn't it?

If love of the stuff was more important than the love of the game, then I guess he never really loved the game anyway.
He's a nice guy.  No real reason to insult him.   The definition of "the game" is not the same for everyone.   Some think of it as just the blank state of the game, others see it as what they personally built it to be.

He loved the game a lot.   He and his wife are just playing another game now that they have built into a state where they enjoy it very much (they want me to join them but other games don't interest me frankly).   
Time will tell.  After putting time and effort into something it's understandable that his immediate reaction is to wall up and not want to return. After a few days or weeks he may soften up and be willing to think about starting over.  What did he say about CoH2?
That may indeed be the case.   He didn't comment about CoH2 (or even CoH 1.5).   I plan to keep in contact with them since we played together so much.
Even if all the game mechanics are copied exactly in CoH1.5 (which is the intent), it will STILL only play "similarly".

The only way you'll get identical gameplay, is in the original game, and even THAT has changed over the years. Really, read the box.  You'll find similar words to "Gameplay experience may change over time" printed on there.
That's true and of course the reason some people stop playing games.

Either it will feel like CoH or it won't.   I plan to find out.   Knowing they are going for the same feel is important to me.

I was commenting that "similar game play" sounds more like what CoT is going for.   That's different than what Irish Girl said:
There's a touch of misunderstanding going around, that moving to Unreal means that something about the gameplay will change. That's simply not true.
Is it likely that adjustments to certain things will be made during Beta? Yeah, just like during CoH. The devs would test, and adjust.
That sounds like the goal is much more than "similar".
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 02, 2014, 03:46:29 PM
A bit of a short sighted view, really. Sure, he's lost his stuff, BUT, right now all his stuff is gone anyway. In fact, we might ALL just consider all of that stuff deleted and gone for ever.  I don't see that as a reason not to go back to the game though.. After all, it wasn't the stuff we loved, it was the game and the community, wasn't it?

If love of the stuff was more important than the love of the game, then I guess he never really loved the game anyway.

I feel where they're coming from. I'll still play, but I won't be able to get what I had back. I'm ok with this, but others aren't. And that's ok too.

He's essentially saying that when his characters died, the game died with them. I'm not so sure that accusing him of "never loving the game" is in order though, considering how much time he had put into it. Perhaps the love of the game and the love and care he put into his characters is too much for him to bear parting with. That doesn't mean he didn't love the game. In fact, it could mean exactly the opposite. Perhaps he loved the game TOO much. People were very, very attached to their characters. I'm not afraid to say I shed some tears when it finally hit me that I wouldn't be able to ever play my Warshade (as he was) again. This game meant something to people.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 02, 2014, 03:52:10 PM
When you downloaded the game and played City of Heroes pre-sunset, the NDA protected the PLAYERS from having their data shared willy nilly by possible unscrupulous sales to company that you didn't intend to have YOUR personal data. As far as the current people wanting that information assigned in the Revival, I am sure MANY do not want that data shared/sold to another party.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Goddangit on September 02, 2014, 03:55:35 PM
For those worried about the Original CoH shutting down - this opens the possibility that you may be able to fund your own server. If you have funds once the game is in escrow and you can load that snapshot onto a server - nothing would stop you from leasing your own copy and hosting a server.

I really wish that were the case, but if they're buying the IP and only leasing the engine I really don't see how The Holding Company would have the ability to legally provide the server snapshot.

But its a wonderful thought.  And thank you for getting all this rolling.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 03:56:44 PM
He's a nice guy.  No real reason to insult him.   The definition of "the game" is not the same for everyone.   Some think of it as just the blank state of the game, others see it as what they personally built it to be.

I didn't insult him.  If you took it that way, well... All I can say is it wasn't intended to be one, at all.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shadowe on September 02, 2014, 03:57:26 PM
Suggestion to Titan mods: add downix to the mod list for this sub-forum, please.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: InOnePiece on September 02, 2014, 04:01:06 PM
Since we're going to be using a version of the City of Titans UE4 build, more work on character creation and powers and what have you is dependent on their work schedule.

I guess I'm not really understanding this point from everything, and it's probably just my own density. What I am assuming is that the basic way the powers are chosen and enhanced is identical between CoH and CoT. In other words, you choose Hover, then you six slot it, then you put enhancements in it - but not six of the same kind because, you know, that would be weird. What does it mean for APR to use CoT's build?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 02, 2014, 04:07:19 PM
I see a lot of possibilities and it is great that the team is thinking out of the box.

For those worried about the Original CoH shutting down - this opens the possibility that you may be able to fund your own server. If you have funds once the game is in escrow and you can load that snapshot onto a server - nothing would stop you from leasing your own copy and hosting a server....

I can't picture NCSoft even remotely agreeing to let whomever run copies of CoH wherever and whenever they want, or making that snapshot available to more than just the Hail Mary Team (and they'll probably only get one snapshot at that-- hope they at least make a few copies in case the original backup gets corrupted!).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 04:08:27 PM
I didn't insult him.  If you took it that way, well... All I can say is it wasn't intended to be one, at all.
He did indeed love the game.   It's just that the game as he knew it is gone if his characters are gone.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 02, 2014, 04:12:27 PM
He did indeed love the game.   It's just that the game as he knew it is gone if his characters are gone.

Well, if this all even happens (which, given NCSoft's prior track record, still isn't that likely), it sounds like your friend won't be playing the original CoH.  That's fine.  It's understandable.  But it's his loss.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 04:13:01 PM
"Similar game play" sounds more vague than what Irish Girl posted yesterday.

There are varying degrees of optimism as to how closely CoH can be mechanically emulated - will your level 50 with the same slots slotted while killing Skullz:

  * be the same play
  * feel like the same play
  * feel close enough to the same play that only certain build combinations will feel slighted **
  * feel close enough even though nothing is perfect but most everyone is happy
  * Look, you get Paragon City back, everything else is cake.

Most likely it will be the middle three barring some documentation coming to light that I've been told doesn't exist.

This completely discounts the possibility that the 1.5 ( really not keen on that labelling ) will be City of Titans game engine, set in the CoH universe(s) which would be somewhere between the latter two on that list.

** Let's be realistic, this will happen even when the i23 servers come back up. :)

 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 04:20:25 PM
Well, if this all even happens (which, given NCSoft's prior track record, still isn't that likely), it sounds like your friend won't be playing the original CoH.  That's fine.  It's understandable.  But it's his loss.
Important to remember that "his loss" happens whether he comes back or not if his characters are gone.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Wammo on September 02, 2014, 04:23:51 PM
I am left stunned at this news. I am excited on the one hand and yet on the other a bit disappointed. It is disappointing to think that the game will not evolve and continue to be expanded and disappointing to think the game will once again end at some point due to the release of Windows 9.

I am also left with a HUGE question...will this new release/version of the game still be playable on the Mac?

Any reservations/disappointments aside...I am happy we may be playing again someday.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 02, 2014, 04:24:13 PM
That MWM somehow misused their funding to switch game engines from Unreal Engine 3 to Unreal Engine 4.  And that this transition set them back irreparably.
Unreal Engine 3 has zero MMO support.  Meaning that MWM would have had to either create their own code for handling the MMO portion of the game, or contract a third party to do so.  Such would have taken an unknown amount of time.  Unreal Engine 4 on the other hand has built in MMO support.  This is why when MWM was offered the chance to upgrade their licenses to the newer version they did so enthusiastically.  As this would be one less thing to have to work out. 

There's also the fact that the license terms for UE4 are actually FAR friendlier than they are for UE3.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 02, 2014, 04:26:20 PM
Marvel Heroes uses unreal engine 3 and it is an arpg mmo, and it has become really popular and tons of fun now, so to say UE3 has zero mmo support is well wrong.

Yes.  And Marvel had to basically build all their MMO structure from scratch, because UE3 is primarily an FPS/TPS engine.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 02, 2014, 04:27:52 PM
I guess I'm not really understanding this point from everything, and it's probably just my own density. What I am assuming is that the basic way the powers are chosen and enhanced is identical between CoH and CoT. In other words, you choose Hover, then you six slot it, then you put enhancements in it - but not six of the same kind because, you know, that would be weird. What does it mean for APR to use CoT's build?
No, CoT's power system is different, more flexible. The adapting will be up to APR.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 04:29:06 PM
There are varying degrees of optimism as to how closely CoH can be mechanically emulated - will your level 50 with the same slots slotted while killing Skullz:

  * be the same play
  * feel like the same play
  * feel close enough to the same play that only certain build combinations will feel slighted **
  * feel close enough even though nothing is perfect but most everyone is happy
  * Look, you get Paragon City back, everything else is cake.

Most likely it will be the middle three barring some documentation coming to light that I've been told doesn't exist.

This completely discounts the possibility that the 1.5 ( really not keen on that labelling ) will be City of Titans game engine, set in the CoH universe(s) which would be somewhere between the latter two on that list.

** Let's be realistic, this will happen even when the i23 servers come back up. :)
I do expect it to look different (that's part of the appeal right there).   If the animations aren't exactly alike that won't bother me.   I mostly just want all the powers to work the same way.   Baddies falling down a different way on my ice slick will still be awesome.   And if I'm still slotting everything the same way after crafting the enhancement the same way, I'm fine.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 04:30:08 PM
I am also left with a HUGE question...will this new release/version of the game still be playable on the Mac?

I cannot speak 100% authoratively on the intents of the management team for the intended 1.5 side of the house, but I have personally played UE4 assets for our side of things on Windows and a Steambox. MacOS is well supported, the toolchain is even native - I just haven't tried that particular build yet, though I think I should do that today.

Our primary targets are Windows and Mac. Linux(s) is highly desired but right now looks limited to debians that are very close to SteamOS specs.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 04:31:20 PM
I am left stunned at this news. I am excited on the one hand and yet on the other a bit disappointed. It is disappointing to think that the game will not evolve and continue to be expanded and disappointing to think the game will once again end at some point due to the release of Windows 9.

I am also left with a HUGE question...will this new release/version of the game still be playable on the Mac?

Any reservations/disappointments aside...I am happy we may be playing again someday.
Something tells me the OP should be updated with answers to the questions and answers throughout the thread.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Burnt Toast on September 02, 2014, 04:32:10 PM
The news is spreading:


http://www.examiner.com/article/details-revealed-of-negotiations-for-city-of-heroes-return


Not just in the US either....


http://www.jeuxonline.info/actualite/45610/resurrection-partielle-licence-city-of-heroes
France


http://www.playmassive.de/mmo-news/id56136/city-heroes-vertrag-rueckkehr-coh-steht-wohl-vor-abschluss.html
Germany

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: KennonGL on September 02, 2014, 04:33:22 PM
Long time lurker here.  I am so happy that I might get the chance to go home again.

Every time I sit down to my computer, part of me is thinking "I wish I was logging into CoH".

On losing old account info and character data: 

The several hundred million in INF and all those IOs will be missed, but not too much.  I can always get more.
Starting my alternate selves over again is no big deal.  I deleted and restarted dozens of characters (yes even level 50's) over the years.
Losing my SG and Base?  Well yeah that hurts.  That base took me literally years to build.  But, I'll adapt and thrive anyway.
Losing all those purchased unlocks and all my vet rewards (if we do...) will be really painful.  I'd come to rely on some of those rewards.
[I'm looking at you Mr. "skip hover" reward].  Plus Doctor Device just won't be the same without his Hover Board.  But, again, I'll adapt if I have to.

At the end of the day, all that truly matters is getting to go home again.

FYI - Irish_Girl:  I know bubkiss about 2D/3D Modelling, but if you ever need a code-monkey for "normal" programming,
I'm more than happy to lend a hand.


Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 02, 2014, 04:37:32 PM
Question on "binary compatibility" with Windows 9. Is there more detail on what the incompatibility is?

Basically there's some noise about Intel pushing an IA-128 architecture and having a Win9 version available.

If that's the case, you probably wouldn't see IA-32 (32-bit Windows compatibility).  But the number of people running 128-bit Windows up front is going to be RIDICULOUSLY small (assuming it's a non-zero number to begin with).

For anyone running a 32-bit or 64-bit version of Win9, at least at this juncture, there's nothing in the pipeline that should interfere with CoH.

I've been following Win9 fairly carefully (as I'd like to avoid the crap that sank Win8).  And, thus far, I haven't seen anything else that should be problematic to the operations of CoH.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 02, 2014, 04:41:27 PM
"Similar game play" sounds more vague than what Irish Girl posted yesterday.

so many of the basic design decisions for COX were superior to anything out there. I currently play swtor and am always asking "Why in the XXXX dir you do it this way???" cox was so far ahead of the other mmos it isnt even funny.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 02, 2014, 04:41:52 PM
Basically there's some noise about Intel pushing an IA-128 architecture and having a Win9 version available.

If that's the case, you probably wouldn't see IA-32 (32-bit Windows compatibility).  But the number of people running 128-bit Windows up front is going to be RIDICULOUSLY small (assuming it's a non-zero number to begin with).

For anyone running a 32-bit or 64-bit version of Win9, at least at this juncture, there's nothing in the pipeline that should interfere with CoH.

I've been following Win9 fairly carefully (as I'd like to avoid the crap that sank Win8).  And, thus far, I haven't seen anything else that should be problematic to the operations of CoH.
Don't be hating on windows 8!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 04:43:55 PM
I am also left with a HUGE question...will this new release/version of the game still be playable on the Mac?

That's been asked, and answered, a least a dozen times since last night...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 02, 2014, 04:44:10 PM
Don't be hating on windows 8!

I don't hate Windows 8.

I simply think it's a decent OS with pathetically broken UI that doesn't belong on anything other than a tablet.

So the proper term is "disdain".
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 04:45:12 PM
Yes.  And Marvel had to basically build all their MMO structure from scratch, because UE3 is primarily an FPS/TPS engine.

Also, the Marvel game is... dreadful. :p
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 02, 2014, 04:45:23 PM
I also balk at the word "licensing" as it was used a couple of time.  Licenses can always expire; contracts can be broken.  Will NCSoft now have some kind of hold or say in the successors if they choose to incorporate aspects of CoH into their games?

This crossed my mind as well; I don't want NCSoft having so much as a single tentacle on CoT. I don't want them anywhere near that game, they can keep their little grubbies to themselves.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on September 02, 2014, 04:46:19 PM
I know many folks still use WinXp and Windows 7.
"Still" nothing. I only switched to Win 7 this year because I replaced my old desktop. :p
I really wish that were the case, but if they're buying the IP and only leasing the engine I really don't see how The Holding Company would have the ability to legally provide the server snapshot.
Sub-leasing is a thing. It depends on the lease terms from NCSoft, obviously.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 02, 2014, 04:48:55 PM
Massively.  http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/09/02/ncsoft-might-allow-players-to-resurrect-the-city-of-heroes-ip/ (http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/09/02/ncsoft-might-allow-players-to-resurrect-the-city-of-heroes-ip/)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MWRuger on September 02, 2014, 04:50:37 PM
No, CoT's power system is different, more flexible. The adapting will be up to APR.

Yeah, I was curious about this as well. My understanding was that the powersets are very different and not locked to any specific role. Not sure how you would create a COH fire/fire blaster in APR without reworking a lot of the avatar creation system to limit selections. I think gameplay style is likely to be quite different if it is just a straight port from CoT to APR without some serious modding of the engine. But there is no way for us on the outside looking in to know.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 02, 2014, 04:51:54 PM
Yeah, I was curious about this as well. My understanding was that the powersets are very different and not locked to any specific role. Not sure how you would create a COH fire/fire blaster in APR without reworking a lot of the avatar creation system to limit selections. I think gameplay style is likely to be quite different if it is just a straight port from CoT to APR without some serious modding of the engine. But there is no way for us on the outside looking in to know.
You can make a new UI which does the job, as the results are under the hood
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Rubberlad on September 02, 2014, 04:54:54 PM
I would like to address some other concerns.  One.  That Missing Worlds Media is using funds from the Kickstarter for the new holding company purchasing the COH Intellectual Property.  This is not so.  Funds from the Kickstarter raised for City of Titans are designated for City of Titans.  New funds will need to be raised separately at some point for the COH revival should the deal with NCSoft get approved.

That MWM somehow misused their funding to switch game engines from Unreal Engine 3 to Unreal Engine 4.  And that this transition set them back irreparably.
Unreal Engine 3 has zero MMO support.  Meaning that MWM would have had to either create their own code for handling the MMO portion of the game, or contract a third party to do so.  Such would have taken an unknown amount of time.  Unreal Engine 4 on the other hand has built in MMO support.  This is why when MWM was offered the chance to upgrade their licenses to the newer version they did so enthusiastically.  As this would be one less thing to have to work out. 

As to the setbacks...that has to do with the character rig on which our avatars will be built upon.  MWM was a little too ambitious with the amount of sockets the character rigs could hold and to how many pieces would make up the rig, and where their seams connected the pieces together would look and work in their game engine.  Some of the seams did not move properly once the rig was in motion.  Too many sockets used up too many resources leading to instability. 

It is my understanding that they are on the third iteration of the character rig.  Once all the kinks are worked out progress will proceed.  While this sets back the avatar builder somewhat it does not affect other portions of the game such as the background world building, lore, or art assets being created.  There are multiple paths all being worked on simultaneously.

Just because other Kickstarter projects have failed does not mean that this project has to fail.  As with any project their is a risk of failure.  There is also the possibility of success.  I prefer to be enthusiastically supportive of City of Titans and why I have contributed to the Kickstarter campaign.  If they start a new Kickstarter to revive City Of Heroes, I will contribute to that as well.  We can all be naysayers and be negative and say that all of this is a pipe dream and give up our hopes or we can be positive and look to a brighter tomorrow.  I prefer to do the latter.  Nuff said.

Actually there’s a lot more that can be said on the points you raised (although I admire your ability to gloss over any and all criticism with a stroke of the Rainbow Brite wand):

1)   MWM didn’t know Unreal 3 engine wasn’t MMO-tech friendly (at least that reason wasn’t clearly stated when they announced the switch to UE4 which came *after* the Kickstarter campaign had already successfully concluded. If they knew prior to the campaign that UE3 wasn’t the right tool but they went ahead with marketing the campaign as a UE3 tool… (while *also* knowing that they had jumpstarted a renew discussion with NCsoft to buy back the CoH IP) well, that opens up a whole new can of worms. That said, I think your spin on these events very unlikely and/or didn’t happen. What I think is more likely is that the MWM team made the decision to switch to UE4 later (and post Kickstarter award) because the UE team saw they’d gotten $600k cash in the Kickstarter campaign and wanted a piece of that action – so why not make the suggestion to the team to upgrade?

2)    MWM isn’t a fully-staffed, self-reliant resource company; it is (or was) a woman-owned, small-business and loosely organized start-up company that is completely dependent on its volunteers to get the job done. How a “company” dependent on volunteers to get one project up and running (CoT) can suddenly think themselves successfully aligned/fully staffed (albeit with part-time volunteers) and resourced to take on a *second* MMO-driven product (even if its CoH revived) using a second and wholly separate fundraising opportunity without publicly acknowledging how they’re going to pay for the pre-negotiated “doable” rate that NCsoft is supposedly comfortable with (but then there goes Warcabbit saying they’ll need fundraising for new servers, networking, etc. on top of producing the money that actually *buys* the IP itself)… that’s not a company with good business sense or a detailed 5-year plan. That’s a bunch of guys flying by the seat of their pants trying to wing this (and maybe take some cash/bonus IT equipment/career development training home on the side, or hopefully get bought out by a bigger game developer/publisher down the road which is another great way to cash in).

3)   Like everyone here, I love CoH and I *want* to believe that the IP can be purchased, the engine licensed, and everything will be happy, hunky dorey come login day – but that’s a lot of blind faith to have in one company (let alone a volunteer-based company) and I’m just not that naive (stupid? yes; naive? no...). Opportunities for fiscal mismanagement come fast and often (even when started with the best of intentions) and that’s not cause to always see everything branded “ Save CoH” as only a good thing. In theory, yes it’s great news; in practical execution, those “i”s had better be dotted and every “T” crossed” on the business operations plan before any money ever changes hands.

Bottom line: there’s good reason to be happy if NCsoft is opening the door to discussions again (regardless of whomever they speak to – and it’s sad to think Brian Clayton’s team came so very close only to lose out because they didn’t want to license the engine -- *if* that was the real reason why their negotiations fell apart) but there’s also good reason to be cautious, reasonably skeptical and ask the tough, sobering questions which can still keep these projects on the road to potential future success. This is a publicly funded initiative, after all, so while folks can yell in another thread “YEAH, BUT WHAT DID YOU DO TO HELP?!” the answer is – we helped contribute the money required to make (COT/COH) happen (which you couldn't and still can't do without the fan base's financial support) ---- and now I say to the MWM team – good job getting on getting NCsoft to open this door again; good luck developing not one but two MMO IP’s simultaneously with a part-time volunteer staff, and most importantly --- in the immortal words of RuPaul herself…

“...DON’T F*CK IT UP.”
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Magus Prime on September 02, 2014, 04:55:35 PM
Thank you, Downix.  Eager to see what the future brings!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 02, 2014, 05:05:25 PM
That's been asked, and answered, a least a dozen times since last night...

Maybe we should compile a list of FAQ's with quoted answers by downix and Irish_Girl
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MWRuger on September 02, 2014, 05:10:52 PM
You can make a new UI which does the job, as the results are under the hood

Very Cool. You know, if this works, there might be other licensing opportunities for CoT if it is that flexible. Imagine if you wanted to do a legit space opera game with Psi powers, blasters, etc. and could mode CoT to do a traveller-esque experience. It could radically effect MMO development cycles if it could work as a starting platform MMO.

To me, it seems that you have to include so many powers and effects for a Superhero game that you have almost everything you need for other genres. If MWM pulls this off, well let's just say, OMG that's freaking cool!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: adarict on September 02, 2014, 05:11:33 PM

Either it will feel like CoH or it won't.   I plan to find out.   Knowing they are going for the same feel is important to me.

I was commenting that "similar game play" sounds more like what CoT is going for.   That's different than what Irish Girl said:That sounds like the goal is much more than "similar".

That was one of my points.  If they change the engine, there is the possibility that it still won't "feel" the same.  Doesn't mean it WON'T, and obviously, they are planning to keep it as close as possible, but when you are trying to take something that was heavily modified in the first place, to make it work the way we remember, and force it into a new engine, there may be some things that you either can't directly emulate, or it requires a lot more work and workarounds to make it do the same thing.

I think it is admirable that 1.5 is aiming to mirror the old mechanics as close as possible, but there is always the possibility that it can't be entirely done.  From Irish Girl's comments, she appears to be the sole person working on it.  If there are things that don't have a one to one equivalent, it may take her much longer to find a way around it.  I would also assume though, that there WILL be additional people working on it, so it may end up being a non-issue.

And just to be clear, I'm not implying that it is impossible, or that the 1.5 project is doomed.  I just don't think people should EXPECT to see the exact old game with new graphics.  Some things might still feel "off".  Those minor things could end up being ironed out through the process.  It is really too early to say one way or the other.  UE4 might be flexible enough that it isn't an issue, I have no idea.  I just don't think it is a good idea to be so unequivocal about there being no significant changes to the feel of gameplay itself due to the change of engine, especially this early in the process.

Overall, I am still quite interested in 1.5.  Having the old system back with a shiny facelift would be pretty darn fantastic.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ezuka on September 02, 2014, 05:17:12 PM
I think an FAQ sticky for this would be really helpful.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 05:18:00 PM
Overall, I am still quite interested in 1.5.  Having the old system back with a shiny facelift would be pretty darn fantastic.

Look at it this way...  If you don't like the "Update", you'll still have CoH1.0  to play.

Win/Win in my books.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: candidate on September 02, 2014, 05:21:56 PM
Quote
I simply think it's a decent OS with pathetically broken UI that doesn't belong on anything other than a tablet.

LOL, another one that has not heard of Startisback and other apps, that bring the start button back.

And prolly not even tried Windows 8.



Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Tacitala on September 02, 2014, 05:26:22 PM
Thank you to everyone involved and the best of luck to you on pulling this off.  No pressure or anything ;)

Say what?

A totally trust worthy individual (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Nemesis_%28Archvillain%29) (and his bio at the side makes me giggle)

Windows 9: Muffin Edition?

Muffins?
(https://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu85/Tacitala/derpy_nocomputer_zps36dc88f1.gif)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 02, 2014, 05:27:39 PM
LOL, another one that has not heard of Startisback and other apps, that bring the start button back.

And prolly not even tried Windows 8.

I've tried it and also tried three different programs that bring the start menu and desktop back, and I still don't care for it. I think it's a FABULOUS tablet interface (and if I can ever afford the Surface Pro 3, I'll certainly have Win 8.1 on it), but between Win 7 and 8, Win 7 is the clear winner for desktop users--especially for desktop users like me who own hundreds of PC games (ranging from 1998 releases to today) and have gotten them all to somehow finally work on Win 7. Sorry, but I won't be migrating over to 8 anytime in the near (or far) future. I'm happy you like it, but it's not everything to everyone.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 05:29:44 PM
You can make a new UI which does the job, as the results are under the hood

To expand slightly. The under the hood system for powers/effects was built to be general purpose rather than to emulate an an exact et of powersets. As the sets are built, new wrinkles get added. It should be straight forward to tailor new sets that are close.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: dpawtows on September 02, 2014, 05:32:45 PM
I guess I'm not really understanding this point from everything, and it's probably just my own density. What I am assuming is that the basic way the powers are chosen and enhanced is identical between CoH and CoT. In other words, you choose Hover, then you six slot it, then you put enhancements in it - but not six of the same kind because, you know, that would be weird. What does it mean for APR to use CoT's build?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/959841
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fleur_uk on September 02, 2014, 05:35:34 PM
I've tried it and also tried three different programs that bring the start menu and desktop back, and I still don't care for it. I think it's a FABULOUS tablet interface (and if I can ever afford the Surface Pro 3, I'll certainly have Win 8.1 on it), but between Win 7 and 8, Win 7 is the clear winner for desktop users--especially for desktop users like me who own hundreds of PC games (ranging from 1998 releases to today) and have gotten them all to somehow finally work on Win 7. Sorry, but I won't be migrating over to 8 anytime in the near (or far) future. I'm happy you like it, but it's not everything to everyone.

This^^ Tried it and hated,loathed,curses it  >:(

But to each their own :) I'm also a happy 7 user and will be until Win 9  ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fleur_uk on September 02, 2014, 05:37:45 PM
I think an FAQ sticky for this would be really helpful.

Mint idea :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 05:46:50 PM
I've tried it and also tried three different programs that bring the start menu and desktop back, and I still don't care for it. I think it's a FABULOUS tablet interface (and if I can ever afford the Surface Pro 3, I'll certainly have Win 8.1 on it), but between Win 7 and 8, Win 7 is the clear winner for desktop users--especially for desktop users like me who own hundreds of PC games (ranging from 1998 releases to today) and have gotten them all to somehow finally work on Win 7. Sorry, but I won't be migrating over to 8 anytime in the near (or far) future. I'm happy you like it, but it's not everything to everyone.

Please guys... This is not the place for that particular argument...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 02, 2014, 05:47:00 PM
Actually there’s a lot more that can be said on the points you raised (although I admire your ability to gloss over any and all criticism with a stroke of the Rainbow Brite wand):

1)   MWM didn’t know Unreal 3 engine wasn’t MMO-tech friendly (at least that reason wasn’t clearly stated when they announced the switch to UE4 which came *after* the Kickstarter campaign had already successfully concluded. If they knew prior to the campaign that UE3 wasn’t the right tool but they went ahead with marketing the campaign as a UE3 tool… (while *also* knowing that they had jumpstarted a renew discussion with NCsoft to buy back the CoH IP) well, that opens up a whole new can of worms. That said, I think your spin on these events very unlikely and/or didn’t happen. What I think is more likely is that the MWM team made the decision to switch to UE4 later (and post Kickstarter award) because the UE team saw they’d gotten $600k cash in the Kickstarter campaign and wanted a piece of that action – so why not make the suggestion to the team to upgrade?

2)    MWM isn’t a fully-staffed, self-reliant resource company; it is (or was) a woman-owned, small-business and loosely organized start-up company that is completely dependent on its volunteers to get the job done. How a “company” dependent on volunteers to get one project up and running (CoT) can suddenly think themselves successfully aligned/fully staffed (albeit with part-time volunteers) and resourced to take on a *second* MMO-driven product (even if its CoH revived) using a second and wholly separate fundraising opportunity without publicly acknowledging how they’re going to pay for the pre-negotiated “doable” rate that NCsoft is supposedly comfortable with (but then there goes Warcabbit saying they’ll need fundraising for new servers, networking, etc. on top of producing the money that actually *buys* the IP itself)… that’s not a company with good business sense or a detailed 5-year plan. That’s a bunch of guys flying by the seat of their pants trying to wing this (and maybe take some cash/bonus IT equipment/career development training home on the side, or hopefully get bought out by a bigger game developer/publisher down the road which is another great way to cash in).

3)   Like everyone here, I love CoH and I *want* to believe that the IP can be purchased, the engine licensed, and everything will be happy, hunky dorey come login day – but that’s a lot of blind faith to have in one company (let alone a volunteer-based company) and I’m just not that naive (stupid? yes; naive? no...). Opportunities for fiscal mismanagement come fast and often (even when started with the best of intentions) and that’s not cause to always see everything branded “ Save CoH” as only a good thing. In theory, yes it’s great news; in practical execution, those “i”s had better be dotted and every “T” crossed” on the business operations plan before any money ever changes hands.

Bottom line: there’s good reason to be happy if NCsoft is opening the door to discussions again (regardless of whomever they speak to – and it’s sad to think Brian Clayton’s team came so very close only to lose out because they didn’t want to license the engine -- *if* that was the real reason why their negotiations fell apart) but there’s also good reason to be cautious, reasonably skeptical and ask the tough, sobering questions which can still keep these projects on the road to potential future success. This is a publicly funded initiative, after all, so while folks can yell in another thread “YEAH, BUT WHAT DID YOU DO TO HELP?!” the answer is – we helped contribute the money required to make (COT/COH) happen (which you couldn't and still can't do without the fan base's financial support) ---- and now I say to the MWM team – good job getting on getting NCsoft to open this door again; good luck developing not one but two MMO IP’s simultaneously with a part-time volunteer staff, and most importantly --- in the immortal words of RuPaul herself…

“...DON’T F*CK IT UP.”

I have some misgivings that are quite a bit different. Irishgirl is not related to MWM in her APR effort. CoT is the main product of MWM. Nate and a couple of other guys are those who had the contacts and resources to enter the negotiations. Getting the IP for one project and a different company/group getting the IP for their project is definitely not a bad thing.

My issues are now Irishgirl is about to be thrown to the sharks. I hope she can get some direction on a business manager because in my dealings on the original project 3 or 4 very unscrupulous people tried to get a foot in the door. She will need help in programming but also with business acumen.

This is a VERY cutthroat business and with a high potential of failure for the best run companies. I am excited but also prudent. I have approached Tony V to ask Irishgirl if she wants a forum section for her APR effort here or on a completely different site? It is time to organize the hordes of willing helpers - but also to direct them in meaningful ways. I have a lot of questions on Unreal 4.

Rubberlad - UnReal 3 does not have native MMO support - it can be added on as a bolt on effort. However UnReal 4 it is integrated and the timing was such very little time would be lost in porting assets from UR3 to UR4 compared to having to either write the code or pay someone to write them for UR3.

The Engine in UR4 is far superior and has many additional features. Features that make developing far faster:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvfn1p92_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AMY7I_eHjk

In the Tech Demo look at the Cave section! Wow!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 02, 2014, 05:54:07 PM
Please guys... This is not the place for that particular argument...

It's also not the place for comments about whether someone you don't know really loved the game....or the place to post about My Little Pony.... or the place to talk about pancakes....or the place to discuss whether or not you liked Champions Online.....or the place....well, you get the idea.

Simply put, this will happen regardless of whether or not you like it.

An active community who will have to wait a long, long, long time to get back in the game they love will eventually turn to other discussions/speculation to pass the time.

*shrug*
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MWRuger on September 02, 2014, 05:54:49 PM

My issues are now Irishgirl is about to be thrown to the sharks. I hope she can get some direction on a business manager because in my dealings on the original project 3 or 4 very unscrupulous people tried to get a foot in the door. She will need help in programming but also with business acumen.


This is something I worry about as well. I could see her getting overwhelmed by offers of help. But hopefully more experienced people will be able to help with this. I hope so anyway.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 02, 2014, 05:58:10 PM
I'm just curious as to why there is no source code out there.  I recently graduated from college and every bit of code I wrote, I kept, and that includes code from members of team projects that I was involved with.  I would assume that I am not the only one who does this.

Gratz on the graduation. And I'm not a part of this project, just a well wisher.

And yeah, I kept all my code while I went through college too.

Several problems with your concept though.
I'm presuming that the CoH code is gagillions of lines long considering it's been being developed for 8+ years. Much of which was probably black boxed so the original developers know only the X code and later developers know Y code.

Normally any code you write while working at a company is the sole property of said company and you can get sued if you used it outside of that company.

And the code may be still in use through a different application. NCSoft may or may not know this and wants to err of the safe side. It happens all the time.
When I was working for Sprint, I saw pieces of code used for several different projects and legacy code that was still standing from the 70s and 80s. With that code several people where still developing using it, but there was only one person who really understood it.

I don't know how they are reverse engineering the project (decompiler, deassember, what have you) but we have to realize that some of the code they find may not have been seen/worked on since 02.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 02, 2014, 06:08:18 PM
Gratz on the graduation. And I'm not a part of this project, just a well wisher.

And yeah, I kept all my code while I went through college too.

Several problems with your concept though.
I'm presuming that the CoH code is gagillions of lines long considering it's been being developed for 8+ years. Much of which was probably black boxed so the original developers know only the X code and later developers know Y code.

Normally any code you write while working at a company is the sole property of said company and you can get sued if you used it outside of that company.

And the code may be still in use through a different application. NCSoft may or may not know this and wants to err of the safe side. It happens all the time.
When I was working for Sprint, I saw pieces of code used for several different projects and legacy code that was still standing from the 70s and 80s. With that code several people where still developing using it, but there was only one person who really understood it.

I don't know how they are reverse engineering the project (decompiler, deassember, what have you) but we have to realize that some of the code they find may not have been seen/worked on since 02.

Since it is based off the Cryptic Engine it is possible that there may be backdoors into existing Cryptic products. Then you could get a snapshot of the game up and running but unwinding the reverse engineering would have you use different solutions to things than the original code did and so the SCoRE folks could potentially be in a very good spot :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 02, 2014, 06:17:27 PM
LOL, another one that has not heard of Startisback and other apps, that bring the start button back.

And prolly not even tried Windows 8.

LOL, another one who assumes instead of simply asking for clarification (and thus, gets it wrong).

We have installs of Startisback/Classic Shell running on multiple machines (both ours and client devices).  This covers not only Win8, but Server 2012.

Additionally, on many of our clients we're simply not ALLOWED to install things of this nature.  Meaning that remote admin of the machine is a wretched experience.

The problem goes a LOT deeper than just the Start button though.  Metro/Modern is a prime study in unnecessary obfuscation/removal of UI functionality.

And that's about as far as I'm going with this.  Since it risks derailing this thread.

Suffice it to say that I'm probably more familiar with Windows than you are and leave it at that.
So please don't be so quick to write someone expressing displeasure off as a luddite.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Stealth Dart on September 02, 2014, 06:24:14 PM
Missing Worlds Media was created for the purpose of making a spiritual successor to City of Heroes.  They are not going to be developing two MMO's simultaneously.  It is not all on MWM's shoulders to pull off everything.  A separate holding company will be responsible for licensing the IP.  A separate effort will be bringing back the I23 servers up and running again.  Yet another project [APR] will be transitioning the COH IP to Unreal Engine 4.  Just because Nate was one of the people involved in the negotiations does not mean that he, and by extension MWM, is going to be running everything.  He has already stated that he is not interested in running the holding company.  He has his hands full already.

I am not following blindly.  Nor am I looking at these efforts cynically.  I am supporting the game that I love as are all those who are doing their best to make all these plans a reality.  We will see if they can pull this off or not.  In the words of Yoda...

http://youtu.be/BQ4yd2W50No
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 02, 2014, 06:27:21 PM
Missing Worlds Media was created for the purpose of making a spiritual successor to City of Heroes.  They are not going to be developing two MMO's simultaneously.  It is not all on MWM's shoulders to pull off everything.  A separate holding company will be responsible for licensing the IP.  A separate effort will be bringing back the I23 servers up and running again.  Yet another project [APR] will be transitioning the COH IP to Unreal Engine 4.  Just because Nate was one of the people involved in the negotiations does not mean that he, and by extension MWM, is going to be running everything.  He has already stated that he is not interested in running the holding company.  He has his hands full already.

I am not following blindly.  Nor am I looking at these efforts cynically.  I am supporting the game that I love as are all those who are doing their best to make all these plans a reality.  We will see if they can pull this off or not.  In the words of Yoda...

http://youtu.be/BQ4yd2W50No
Once the holding company is set up, my role is done.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 06:31:23 PM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Turgenev on September 02, 2014, 06:34:03 PM
Also, what you have done must have been pretty dang impressive, because it brought Turgenev out of hiding! WOW.


Hush, ya punk. I've been busylike. :P I'm always watching. I've just had to worry about swimming lessons, crib mods, managing a corporate buyout and subsequent RIF at my company this summer, which is still echoing...

I come home, I read "Puff the Magic Dragon" to MiniTurg, sing "Let It Go" like I'm Kermit the Frog, and I'm just knackered.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: srmalloy on September 02, 2014, 06:34:11 PM
For those who do not know Korean business methods, it is considered highly rude to directly email someone, but to instead get an introduction from a third party business associate. This meant we had to find someone who was not part of NC Soft to formally introduce us to Mr. Yoon. Fortunately, we had two people who could do just that, a former NC West employee and a former co-worker of mine who had started a media company which works with NC Soft on developing properties for the Asian market.

Introductions in place, we made the leap from US-bound people to members of the Korean firm. This was very carefully done, very slowly orchestrated. By July, we had gotten to the point that Mr. Yoon had passed us to Sangwon Chung from NC Soft's Strategic Partnership Development Team.
Quote
Why this group?

Because we approached them like another Korean company. We respected their company culture. And most importantly, we were patient. We had periods where we heard nothing for weeks.

The group itself began as three people. It has grown, some people more connected to the inner workings than others. Some former Cryptic and Paragon employees have given us advise on things ranging from what is needed to run the old server binaries to how the Paragon Market worked.

It's water under the bridge at this point, but the fact that negotiations conducted this way have produced a positive response lends credence to my conclusions that NCSoft had shut down CoH and Paragon Studios as if it were a Korean subsidiary, with what, from their view, was a significant amount of patience on their part that we didn't accept their decision as 'proper' customers should have. It also explains why the several attempts to purchase the CoH IP from NCSoft have failed, as they weren't conducted with the appropriate degree of propriety. From our point of view, that NCSoft has established itself as an international game publisher while failing to accept that business practices in other countries are significantly different, but I can see where, culturally, failing to retain those business practices would be an admission of failure on their part.

That the cultural divide has caused distorted perceptions on both sides is regrettable; had something like this been started back when the shutdown was announced, it might have been possible for the game to have been preserved prior to shutdown -- and, possibly, working through a front, to have enabled Paragon Studios to have bought itself free of NCSoft with CoH and continued the game. Regardless, I am impressed by the effort you have put into trying to salvage the game through processes acceptable to them, and I hope to see its success.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 02, 2014, 06:34:16 PM
Once the holding company is set up, my role is done.

I have a hammer saws and a nailgun if it would help.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 02, 2014, 06:43:11 PM
I have a hammer saws and a nailgun if it would help.

Your don't need those fancy tools. You can fix everything with duck tape
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 02, 2014, 06:46:27 PM

Hush, ya punk. I've been busylike. :P I'm always watching. I've just had to worry about swimming lessons, crib mods, managing a corporate buyout and subsequent RIF at my company this summer, which is still echoing...

I come home, I read "Puff the Magic Dragon" to MiniTurg, sing "Let It Go" like I'm Kermit the Frog, and I'm just knackered.

lol, awww... MiniTurg. I like it.

I honestly can't wait to try out more of your AE arcs if the game gets back up and running! :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 02, 2014, 06:46:54 PM
Your don't need those fancy tools. You can fix everything with duck tape

we are building it out of ducks? thats gonna drive people quackers...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Stealth Dart on September 02, 2014, 07:00:11 PM
Birds of a feather?

http://youtu.be/3Zl2fi7UFf4
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Wammo on September 02, 2014, 07:02:05 PM
That's been asked, and answered, a least a dozen times since last night...

Sorry FloatingFatMan...I didn't have the stamina to read all 25 pages to find my answers. Please know my tone in that sentence is friendly and genuine...you are one my favorite posters on here. I hope we might put answers on the OP to avoid such events.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Wammo on September 02, 2014, 07:07:43 PM
At risk of asking another question answered in these many pages...

All things considered...if this deal gets done as proposed in the OP...how long before we get to log in? Any estimates?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Aggelakis on September 02, 2014, 07:09:37 PM
All things considered...if this deal gets done as proposed in the OP...how long before we get to log in? Any estimates?

Nope. No ETA's. Announcing any now would be foolhardy at best.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 07:14:47 PM
Sorry FloatingFatMan...I didn't have the stamina to read all 25 pages to find my answers. Please know my tone in that sentence is friendly and genuine...you are one my favorite posters on here. I hope we might put answers on the OP to avoid such events.

My apologies if my tone came over as brusque, that wasn't the intent. :)

Second time today, I've done that.  I'm on a roll! :p
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Wammo on September 02, 2014, 07:16:15 PM
My apologies if my tone came over as brusque, that wasn't the intent. :)

Second time today, I've done that.  I'm on a roll! :p

No need for apologies at all. I assumed no such tone...we good :-)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 07:17:24 PM
At risk of asking another question answered in these many pages...

All things considered...if this deal gets done as proposed in the OP...how long before we get to log in? Any estimates?

My dad has a pat answer for questions like this, but if you're not a Brit, you probably won't get it...

"When Nelson gets his eye back!"  :p
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: powergridpete on September 02, 2014, 07:18:30 PM
This is great news!  I have no idea why NCSoft closed down CoH in the first place.  Name a better MMO that closed?  You probably can't.  MMO's don't reopen every day, in fact, I can't name one.  Looking forward to it.  Great job!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Wammo on September 02, 2014, 07:24:28 PM
My dad has a pat answer for questions like this, but if you're not a Brit, you probably won't get it...

"When Nelson gets his eye back!"  :p
I'm not a Brit but I think I get the idea of what you mean by that....

I grow impatient but realize I have no choice but to wait...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 02, 2014, 07:24:45 PM
This is great news!  I have no idea why NCSoft closed down CoH in the first place.  Name a better MMO that closed?  You probably can't.  MMO's don't reopen every day, in fact, I can't name one.  Looking forward to it.  Great job!

I can't even name a better MMO, let alone one that closed.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 02, 2014, 07:28:14 PM

   I am speechless. Fingers tightly crossed.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on September 02, 2014, 07:35:24 PM
we are building it out of ducks? thats gonna drive people quackers...
Duck tape is made using duck cloth layered between the adhesive and the plastic backing. While it's popularly referred to as "duct tape" in many places it's actually a terrible tape to use on ducts since it doesn't hold up well at all in heat. Actually it's generally not a good tape for any sort of long term use since even in cooler environments it tends to get crumbly over time instead of turning into a gummy mess like in hotter environments.

i'd post more on topic comments and questions, but so far that's been pretty well handled by other people, so i'm mostly reading and offering incidental kvetching.
Kudos to downix, TonyV, Irish Girl, and everyone else on staying on top of things and responding with such clarity and patience.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MWRuger on September 02, 2014, 07:38:47 PM
Duck tape is made using duck cloth layered between the adhesive and the plastic backing. While it's popularly referred to as "duct tape" in many places it's actually a terrible tape to use on ducts since it doesn't hold up well at all in heat. Actually it's generally not a good tape for any sort of long term use since even in cooler environments it tends to get crumbly over time instead of turning into a gummy mess like in hotter environments.

i'd post more on topic comments and questions, but so far that's been pretty well handled by other people, so i'm mostly reading and offering incidental kvetching.
Kudos to downix, TonyV, Irish Girl, and everyone else on staying on top of things and responding with such clarity and patience.

Well you are also explaining Duct(k) tape so that's a huge bonus!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: TonyV on September 02, 2014, 07:44:53 PM
   I am speechless. Fingers tightly crossed.

Not any more, you have a post now!  We've been waiting so long for you to show up, where have you been!!?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: powergridpete on September 02, 2014, 07:45:28 PM
I can't even name a better MMO, let alone one that closed.

Good point... the character creator alone is better than half of the MMO's out there.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 02, 2014, 08:00:10 PM
Not any more, you have a post now!  We've been waiting so long for you to show up, where have you been!!?

 I must admit that, most un-heroically, since the cataclysm that hit our game, I have been in a modified fortress of...um...er..moping but, no more :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 02, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
At risk of asking another question answered in these many pages...

All things considered...if this deal gets done as proposed in the OP...how long before we get to log in? Any estimates?

Hell I like this kind of speculation so Ill take a stab at it.  Say deal wraps up by Nov. 1.  Say then it takes the holding company two more months to get its act together (raise some cash, build website, account registration, organize servers, test things, etc.).  So Id guess at the very earliest Feb. 2015.

Im sure others savy in these matters have a clearer crystal ball.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: TonyV on September 02, 2014, 08:47:08 PM
30 minutes without any posts in this thread?  I haven't looked outside my window lately, is the world still there?

/e pokes the anthill...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 02, 2014, 08:51:23 PM
Be careful man, it might be fire ants.  It could even be army ants or some other super deadly ant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UozWJTuhbMQ

I was trying to find a video with even deadlier ants......
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ashen Fury on September 02, 2014, 08:53:35 PM
Im amazed.  This is such fantastic news! Getting the IP itself is potentially even more exciting than the client sure to the sheer potential of what could be done with it! Great job guys,  thank you so much for your efforts,  ill keep my fingers crossed!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: nicoliy on September 02, 2014, 08:54:20 PM
I'm still hopeful, but not counting any chickens yet. I very much want to be back in CoH, but I can see where that road is long off - if it happens. None the less, I too am thankful for those working on this, your efforts are much appreciated.

Now back to also stalking City of Titans forums for updates from the weekend conventions.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sinistar on September 02, 2014, 08:54:29 PM
At risk of asking another question answered in these many pages...

All things considered...if this deal gets done as proposed in the OP...how long before we get to log in? Any estimates?

Way too early to expect login date announcments. 

Even if the deal goes through this month (hoping it does), I wouldn't expect to be able to log in until winter 2014 at the earliest. 

Pure speculation of course.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on September 02, 2014, 08:59:51 PM
30 minutes without any posts in this thread?  I haven't looked outside my window lately, is the world still there?

/e pokes the anthill...
I think its due to everyone soaking up all of the information we have at the moment :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 02, 2014, 09:01:48 PM
Duck tape is made using duck cloth layered between the adhesive and the plastic backing. While it's popularly referred to as "duct tape" in many places it's actually a terrible tape to use on ducts since it doesn't hold up well at all in heat. Actually it's generally not a good tape for any sort of long term use since even in cooler environments it tends to get crumbly over time instead of turning into a gummy mess like in hotter environments.

i'd post more on topic comments and questions, but so far that's been pretty well handled by other people, so i'm mostly reading and offering incidental kvetching.
Kudos to downix, TonyV, Irish Girl, and everyone else on staying on top of things and responding with such clarity and patience.

duck tapes primary purpose it to hold swords together..along with strapping tape
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on September 02, 2014, 09:08:39 PM
I think its due to everyone soaking up all of the information we have at the moment :)
No, everyone is several dozen concepts deep into Icon and/or Mid's
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: nikitastorm on September 02, 2014, 09:10:01 PM
I am cautiously optimistic. There's a LOT going on in this announcement, and a lot of work ahead, should a deal come to fruition with NCSoft. One of the things mentioned is still a bit confusing to me, even though someone has tried to explain it, and that is the concept that APR will be using MWM's CoT build. I am SO not getting that. But, you know what? I really probably don't NEED to get it. :)  The rest of it makes sense.

I would love to offer help to someone out there, but, about the only thing I am really good at that you might need is proofreading. I am pretty good at catching typos, providing examples of better grammar and better ways to word things. If any of the companies or individuals that are working on these projects is in need of those skills from me, please, feel free to contact me.

Oh, and I think I might have an explanation for some of the folks who are confused about the idea of NCSoft licensing the game engine. It is my understanding (and any part of this might be wrong) that NCSoft does not own the game engine. I believe that Cryptic still actually owns the engine. It is also my understanding that Cryptic licensed the game engine to NCSoft "in perpetuity" (as long as they needed it). I further understood that someone from Cryptic (Jack Emmert, perhaps?) made a statement to the effect that Cryptic would not stand in the way of NCSoft selling the game and would allow them to license the game engine to a third party to facilitate that. So, while the game IP (intellectual property) in any acceptable deal would be sold without (too many crazy) strings to our Hail Mary Team, the game engine would require that NCSoft license it, since it is not theirs to sell.

If I am incorrect, please point it out gently. :)

-- Storm
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 02, 2014, 09:23:20 PM
Okay I haven't really addressed this directly yet.

Here's how I feel about the proposition put forth in the original thread.

"I wish you luck.  But until it's a Done Deal, I'm not holding my breath.  NC has demonstrated that they'll string someone along and then simply stop communicating."
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 02, 2014, 09:25:30 PM
I would love to offer help to someone out there, but, about the only thing I am really good at that you might need is proofreading. I am pretty good at catching typos, providing examples of better grammar and better ways to word things. If any of the companies or individuals that are working on these projects is in need of those skills from me, please, feel free to contact me.
-- Storm

Let me also throw my hat in that ring.  I've worked as a professional proofreader/editor, written copy, worked on fund raising grants/proposals, and even taught English to confused looking Japanese kids and adults.  Anyone on any of the given teams needs help with writing and editing I'd be glad to lend a hand.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 02, 2014, 09:32:37 PM
I know people have concerns about I23maint being outmoded when win 9 comes out. aslong as you dont upgrade you will continue to be fine for the next 6 years at least. I for one cant wait for a hami raid under unreal4 engine...gonna be awesome
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 02, 2014, 09:34:13 PM
I am cautiously optimistic. There's a LOT going on in this announcement, and a lot of work ahead, should a deal come to fruition with NCSoft. One of the things mentioned is still a bit confusing to me, even though someone has tried to explain it, and that is the concept that APR will be using MWM's CoT build. I am SO not getting that. But, you know what? I really probably don't NEED to get it. :)  The rest of it makes sense.
<snip>
-- Storm

As I understand it, APR has nothing to do with MWM or CoT. Their job will be to get old CoHi23 to work on a newer MMO engine,. a copy that can be edited, and patched, derived from the binary CoHi23 version. This will be referred to as CoH 1.5
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 02, 2014, 09:40:30 PM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Optimus Dex on September 02, 2014, 09:46:42 PM
Its great to see that Nc Soft is actually talking and open to possibly selling the IP, but we have a long way to go still. I applaud everyone who has worked on this to #SaveCoH.

 I am still hopeful that somehow character data can be rescued. One of my biggest concerns if character data is not available are that many veterans will not return to the game. I was thinking about this last night and im coming from my own personal view and I know the shared views of others.. Its twelve years later since the launch of City of Heroes. I am not the person I was then. I am married now.. with a family.. different responsibilities that require more time. I dont have the time to sit and play hours and hours and hours on end like I did previously. And in all honesty I dont want to play the same content over and over and over AGAIN that I already have. If I had to start over and remake every character and earn and purchase all those enhancements all over again I just dont know if I would want to do that. Would I remake everyone.. no.. but they are some core character that I would and even those are 25-30 plus characters..

 And having no idea what will happen to the maintenance mode long term or if those character will be ported over to CoH 1.5... Its a very challenging situation.. I know several people in my SG that I have remained in contact with feel the same way..

 Everyone of us will ABSOLUTELY play if/when the games comes back. The question is will they support the game like they did in years past.. will they stay long term..

 At this point im taking the Tony V position more seriously.. be patient.. and wait until everything unfolds..


I will be 61 tomorrow . I started playing COH around my birthday in 2004. I am not the same person I was then either. If and when the game comes back I will play it , I will have a subscription or maybe 2. My sons played as did my daughter in law. They plan on playing again. I have a friend and Sg mate who played - he is ready to play again.
 There were things I never did in game , power sets I never tried. So I will support the game and patiently await COH 1.5 or COH 2. I miss the Paragon City - I can redo characters and start new one. I tried DCU Online - hated it , Champions Online was not very good at all. I don't do Elves and Dwarves games. So bring on COH in maintenance mode till something better is finished.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Frankenstein on September 02, 2014, 09:53:04 PM
I am stupid-ludicrous excited about this.   And windows 9?  I will build a rig to NEVER UPGRADE to play City.  I will buy outdated parts at marked up prices!  I WILL KILL THIS GO.. wait uh.. nm...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 09:53:09 PM
This is something I worry about as well. I could see her getting overwhelmed by offers of help. But hopefully more experienced people will be able to help with this. I hope so anyway.
Interesting point.   This will be a double-edged sword.   Offers to help should increase greatly (I know nothing, and can't help feeling the urge to help as well), but sorting through those offers and putting together a "team" might not be so easy.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 09:58:06 PM
My issues are now Irishgirl is about to be thrown to the sharks. I hope she can get some direction on a business manager because in my dealings on the original project 3 or 4 very unscrupulous people tried to get a foot in the door. She will need help in programming but also with business acumen.
If only the programming stuff was the only skill needed!   
Quote
The Engine in UR4 is far superior and has many additional features. Features that make developing far faster:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvfn1p92_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AMY7I_eHjk

In the Tech Demo look at the Cave section! Wow!
The prospect of running an ITF in UR4 is exciting.   Maybe the "valley of lag" would go away even as the graphics made a huge leap forward.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dareon Kale on September 02, 2014, 10:16:20 PM
It all makes me wish I had an applicable skill set to apply to the effort. Alas, a degree in kinesiology does not lend itself well to graphics development, coding, or negotiating business agreements. I'm left with just being thankful for the efforts of others, and hoping our current Korean overlords find sufficient value in the sale and licensing of our favorite City. However, if any of you technically apt individuals need some help refining your workout regimen, let me know. We can't have you guys running out of energy or falling into disrepair after all.  ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 10:19:14 PM
30 minutes without any posts in this thread?  I haven't looked outside my window lately, is the world still there?

/e pokes the anthill...

/e pokes back

I go to sleep, and the thread jumps forward 5 pages! So...many posts I want to reply to. @_@
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 02, 2014, 10:21:09 PM
Since it is based off the Cryptic Engine it is possible that there may be backdoors into existing Cryptic products. Then you could get a snapshot of the game up and running but unwinding the reverse engineering would have you use different solutions to things than the original code did and so the SCoRE folks could potentially be in a very good spot :)

I'm really finding all of this very fascinating from a technical level. Even though I'm just looking at it from afar.

... I'm still mentally floating out in Oro since I looked at the U4 video. That is way beyond my wildest hopes.
So, even if the worst case happens, I still have this experience.

My opinion guys, enjoy this whole journey while you can. If we get everything we want, we can enjoy the ride. If not, we still had that ride to look back on.

Side note: This forum has given me a lot of info about CoT and it's progress that I don't feel like I'd gotten looking through their website and announcements.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Safehouse on September 02, 2014, 10:21:31 PM
I don't have a lot in the way of technical skills that I could offer to help, but I am a very good writer, with a lot of practice at science fiction and fantasy writing. I am also an excellent editor and proofreader, if/when the time comes along. So, if my aid with things like APR is ever needed, I'm right here.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 10:23:00 PM
Look at it this way...  If you don't like the "Update", you'll still have CoH1.0  to play.

Win/Win in my books.

and hopefully you'll send APR an E-Mail saying why you don't like the update, and what you feel we could do to make it more fun.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 10:29:14 PM
As I understand it, APR has nothing to do with MWM or CoT. Their job will be to get old CoHi23 to work on a newer MMO engine,. a copy that can be edited, and patched, derived from the binary CoHi23 version. This will be referred to as CoH 1.5

This is correct. I'm not part of MWM, nor are they involved directly in APR. We do have an agreement in place, where APR will be taking a version of their game code, and modifying it for our needs.

How can I try and explain this... Ok. Think of Unreal Engine 4 as a canvas.
Now, the final product we want is a drawing of Statesman.
What they're going to do, is sketch out the drawing and give us a copy of that sketch.
Then it'll be up to us to fill in the eyes, and nose, and color.

EDIT: This prolly makes no sense, I've been awake for like 10 minutes after sleeping something awful. Apologies.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 10:31:07 PM
I can't even name a better MMO, let alone one that closed.
+1
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 10:34:28 PM
Be careful man, it might be fire ants.  It could even be army ants or some other super deadly ant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UozWJTuhbMQ

I was trying to find a video with even deadlier ants......
Since it's a super hero game:

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=upload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fa%2Fae%2FAuntmay.jpg)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 02, 2014, 10:36:23 PM
Be careful man, it might be fire ants.  It could even be army ants or some other super deadly ant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UozWJTuhbMQ

I was trying to find a video with even deadlier ants......

I've used this one before but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2PLls02gOU
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Peregrine Falcon on September 02, 2014, 10:37:13 PM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Mistress Urd on September 02, 2014, 10:40:43 PM
Be careful man, it might be fire ants.  It could even be army ants or some other super deadly ant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UozWJTuhbMQ

I was trying to find a video with even deadlier ants......

Argentine Ants are pretty annoying.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 02, 2014, 10:45:11 PM
Since it's a super hero game:

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=upload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fa%2Fae%2FAuntmay.jpg)

Ok, Harpo. You win. Your response was waaaay better than mine. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 02, 2014, 10:50:18 PM
/e pokes back

I go to sleep, and the thread jumps forward 5 pages! So...many posts I want to reply to. @_@

Tell me about it. Took me several hours to catch up...

Hey, wait a minute. Don't you have a job to do?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH9hvFHlspc
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 02, 2014, 10:50:46 PM
Completely correct! If a woman owns it, that's pretty shady right there! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

There's the real possibility that it's organized this way as a form of tax dodge.  Not that dodging taxes is really WRONG or anything (show me where it's stated that a company or person is OBLIGATED to pay maximum possible taxes).

Quote
Geez Louise, like the sex of the owner is even relevant. That is the very last of our worries, why was this even mentioned. Thumbs down.  >:(

It can be.  If it's organized this way with a titular "owner" for tax purposes, but actually run by someone else, this can be semi-shady, and the IRS (as they are wont to do) tends to frown on companies that set up this way in a less than legitimate manner.

Essentially the implication being made is that MWM is not a fully operational company in the classic sense.  But is a poorly capitalized, loosely organized federation of developers in a conveniently packaged shell corporation designed to minimize monetary liabilities.  Which really isn't all that far from the truth.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fable on September 02, 2014, 10:55:07 PM
Just a thought/question. Assuming all goes well.

So if we start playing the zombified version of CoH then decide to switch to "CoH 1.5" will we have to start over a third time? Or are you guys thinking of some way to transfer character data from one to the other.

Obviously this question makes a lot of assumptions.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sophronisba on September 02, 2014, 11:01:34 PM
Quote
If it's organized this way with a titular "owner" for tax purposes, but actually run by someone else, this can be semi-shady, and the IRS (as they are wont to do) tends to frown on companies that set up this way in a less than legitimate manner.

Yes, but what does that have to do with the sex of the owner? Why would a woman-owned company be more suspect than a man-owned company?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 02, 2014, 11:05:11 PM
Just a thought/question. Assuming all goes well.

So if we start playing the zombified version of CoH then decide to switch to "CoH 1.5" will we have to start over a third time? Or are you guys thinking of some way to transfer character data from one to the other.

Obviously this question makes a lot of assumptions.

This largely depends upon four things.

1) What entity is made responsible for Legacy ( i23 )

2) How exportable the character data ultimately is

3) If the entity in 1 wants to allow this with the entity ( presumably APR ) running Next ( 1.5 )

4) The adaptation of CoH to the UE4 based interpretation of CoH is close enough that a direct port is reasonable.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 02, 2014, 11:08:34 PM
It can be.  If it's organized this way with a titular "owner" for tax purposes, but actually run by someone else, this can be semi-shady, and the IRS (as they are wont to do) tends to frown on companies that set up this way in a less than legitimate manner.

Essentially the implication being made is that MWM is not a fully operational company in the classic sense.  But is a poorly capitalized, loosely organized federation of developers in a conveniently packaged shell corporation designed to minimize monetary liabilities.  Which really isn't all that far from the truth.
Of course as MWM is not set up in this way for tax purposes, but for copyright and trademark protection, does not apply.

If anything, we've rather overpaid our taxes to-date, as I know if we used our international nature of volunteers to our advantage, we could have used accounting tricks to avoid paying more. (set up subsidies in the Netherlands, Cayman and Ireland, and bam, "what taxes?" Good old Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich)
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.zerohedge.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Fuser5%2Fimageroot%2F2012%2F04%2FDouble%2520Irishi.jpg)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 02, 2014, 11:09:13 PM
I've used this one before but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2PLls02gOU

Hey!  THEM is one of my favorite old horror movies of all time!  Now I'm gonna find it on youtube because those movies....easy to find em!  And I wanna play fallout 3 now all of a sudden(though I like new vegas better).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: dwturducken on September 02, 2014, 11:10:20 PM
My dad has a pat answer for questions like this, but if you're not a Brit, you probably won't get it...

"When Nelson gets his eye back!"  :p

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img.pandawhale.com%2Fpost-11756-I-understood-that-reference-gi-GkxF.gif)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Xaphan on September 02, 2014, 11:20:32 PM
Coming out of a long lurking period to poke my head out. Been keeping up with the efforts so far, but absolutely floored by the latest news, and still trying to read up on everything.

I know of course nothing is set in stone yet, and I must remain cautious about my optimism, but I can't help but feel excited about this. It's going to be hard to remain patient and await the next tidbit of news. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 02, 2014, 11:31:03 PM
There's the real possibility that it's organized this way as a form of tax dodge.  Not that dodging taxes is really WRONG or anything (show me where it's stated that a company or person is OBLIGATED to pay maximum possible taxes).

So businesses owned by women are not subject to taxation? I am learning a lot here today.  8)

I was just amused and annoyed that the person whom I was quoting seemed to view "woman-owned" as fitting right in with his list of other objectionable criteria. Truly: whut.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 02, 2014, 11:32:50 PM
With all the "help" offers, I may as well mention the one thing I do.   Music.

I was wondering if CoH 1.5 would use the same music (not a bad thing at all...I LOVED the music in CoH) since that is probably a part of the IP?

If not, I could contribute.  Electronicy stuff, dubstep, traditional stuff...got it all.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 02, 2014, 11:44:46 PM
I was wondering if CoH 1.5 would use the same music (not a bad thing at all...I LOVED the music in CoH) since that is probably a part of the IP?

Barring something unseen...It will be using the original music, where appropriate.

That said... As a game that's going to be expanding, It will need new music at some point.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on September 02, 2014, 11:47:22 PM
Barring something unseen...It will be using the original music, where appropriate.

That said... As a game that's going to be expanding, It will need new music at some point.
This might a dumb question but will 1.5 have all of the zones and a few new zones?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ukaserex on September 03, 2014, 12:05:18 AM
I feel where they're coming from. I'll still play, but I won't be able to get what I had back. I'm ok with this, but others aren't. And that's ok too.

He's essentially saying that when his characters died, the game died with them. I'm not so sure that accusing him of "never loving the game" is in order though, considering how much time he had put into it. Perhaps the love of the game and the love and care he put into his characters is too much for him to bear parting with. That doesn't mean he didn't love the game. In fact, it could mean exactly the opposite. Perhaps he loved the game TOO much. People were very, very attached to their characters. I'm not afraid to say I shed some tears when it finally hit me that I wouldn't be able to ever play my Warshade (as he was) again. This game meant something to people.

My heart goes out to folks who are troubled by the lack of character data being transferred.
I remember chatting with one of the NPC's that would tell me how many hours my character had logged...well over 5000. Badge count was over 1200, 1323, I think. Had almost all of them. Those lengthy shard TFs, the pvp badges! Ugh..that was back when Siren's Call was new and was super-awesome(pre-issue 13)! I'd hate to have to get those again post-issue 13!
But - please remember to tell your friends this: nothing is cast in stone. Character data *might* get put on the table. I'm not at all sure how that would get worked out, or how much extra it would cost, but it's in the realm of possibility. I don't think it's likely, but it is possible.

As a player that had a ton of level 50's, well, if you have the time, it's easy to do. It really is easy once you know how. But, circumstances change. Some of you who were kids when you played are now adults. You have jobs. Some of you who were young adults have now graduated and not only have a job, but a wife and one or more children. Even if the wife and kids are on board, there are so many other things that take precedence over game time. Homework, if you're kids are playing. Can't be missing the book reports and the math questions for a task/strike force!
In my case, I'm actually concerned that I'll blimp out again after having lost a great deal of weight. I'm not even sure I can play CoH without pop-tarts or pizza nearby. I'm not sure Ezekiel Bread and tuna will fill that same roll. (Role! Had to sneak a weak pun in.)

Time does change things. I'm not at all sure I want to play 14 hours a day, even on a weekend like I did before. (I was unemployed for a year in 2011) That's just playing to be playing, forgetting about the real world. I'll be far more casual than I ever was - but you can bet I'll get me a level 50 as quickly as I can so I can lead those iTrials.

Which - now that I think of it, those will be interesting. Didn't we have to be subscribed to play those? I'm not at all sure we'll be able to play those unless the new team can somehow make everyone appear to be a subscriber. Not at all sure how that will be worked out. I'm so glad that's not my problem - yet!  ;D

I would tell your friend not to worry about it. A lot of us do understand that time that was invested in the characters. I do get the disappointment, and the reluctance to reinvest that time (again!) with the only reward being the return of what you already had. That's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. No hard feelings here. I've a feeling we'll be missing several people with that view. Guess that's life in the big City of Heroes.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cyclone Jack on September 03, 2014, 12:06:26 AM
This progress makes me smile.

See:   ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 03, 2014, 12:07:19 AM
Barring something unseen...It will be using the original music, where appropriate.

That said... As a game that's going to be expanding, It will need new music at some point.
Not a bad thing at all.   Those tracks still sound awesome to me.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 03, 2014, 12:11:55 AM
Yes, but what does that have to do with the sex of the owner? Why would a woman-owned company be more suspect than a man-owned company?

Because some states have tax breaks and incentive programs for woman and miniority-owned businesses.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 03, 2014, 12:14:24 AM
Of course as MWM is not set up in this way for tax purposes, but for copyright and trademark protection, does not apply.

If anything, we've rather overpaid our taxes to-date, as I know if we used our international nature of volunteers to our advantage, we could have used accounting tricks to avoid paying more. (set up subsidies in the Netherlands, Cayman and Ireland, and bam, "what taxes?" Good old Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich)
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.zerohedge.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Fuser5%2Fimageroot%2F2012%2F04%2FDouble%2520Irishi.jpg)

Exactly.  And while the cheapskate in me wonders "why the hell are you giving them so much money?", the pragmatist applauds you for not playing these games from the outset.  If it happens later, fine.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Tessachan on September 03, 2014, 12:14:34 AM
I'm... overwhelmed?! Delighted, amazed, dizzy! This could be the biggest coup in MMO history! Ok, ok, I'll calm down, a little empathy & fortitude, right, I'm calming down <heart beating fast>. OMG, you totally rock the planet! Thank you, most humbly & gratefully, thank you.

Tessa
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 03, 2014, 12:17:12 AM
So businesses owned by women are not subject to taxation? I am learning a lot here today.  8)

I was just amused and annoyed that the person whom I was quoting seemed to view "woman-owned" as fitting right in with his list of other objectionable criteria. Truly: whut.

No, as I stated elsewhere, minority and female-owned businesses in some states have particularly targeted tax breaks, incentive programs and are able to take advantage of programs that can lead to government contracts and the like.

In some cases, companies are setting up shill corporations as an "in" to take advantage of these benefits.  Hence the stigma of "woman owned business".

Stopping this tangent discussion as well.  As it's off-point and will inevitably lead to thread derailment.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on September 03, 2014, 12:24:58 AM
Since it's a super hero game:

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=upload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fa%2Fae%2FAuntmay.jpg)
Ok, Harpo. You win. Your response was waaaay better than mine. :)
"Honest, I thought she was a lich! Look at those claws, that staring, cadaverous face; how was I to know?!"
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 12:41:20 AM
This might a dumb question but will 1.5 have all of the zones and a few new zones?

With how beautiful Irish_Girl made Ouroboros, I believe she can complete Khalisti Warf :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: amrobinson on September 03, 2014, 12:42:03 AM
It seems to me like the whole idea with CoH 1.5 is to basically have CoH live on in a more future-proofed way. Exactly CoH, just updatable, more features to AE, etc.

I really, really would like to believe this.

Really.

brought to you by
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.idx360.com%2Fwarlockinc%2Flordminion.png)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Illusionss on September 03, 2014, 12:43:47 AM
Barring something unseen...It will be using the original music, where appropriate.

That said... As a game that's going to be expanding, It will need new music at some point.

I was wondering about this last night. I am delighted to hear this. I want all the original music right where it is now, and if we add new stuff of course that gets new music, but existing zones should keep their music.

I am really old school and when Mercy and Atlas got revamped, the fact that they lost their old music just about brought tears to my eyes. I LIKED knowing just what to expect as my level 2 ran out of Fort Darwin. Past the Shotgun Arbiter they would run, right out the gate and cue the music. [And I missed the Shotgun Arbiter, too..... he was a tradition, like seeing Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer at Christmastime.]
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 03, 2014, 12:46:10 AM
;D Yeah, It's pretty. You guys should see it in-game. hehe.
I would be willing to watch a video of you walking around in those zones.  Not boring at all to me.  :D

I also would love to see your progress on YouTube. Perhaps once you have IP you could monitorzie the videos to get a little bit of money coming in that way while sharing your work with the community and promoting all at the same time.

On an unrelated note, I have a question for one of programmers on here. A VERY long time ago, I used a decompiler to turn a finished program back into it source code. No comments of course, and it produced some pretty horrifically ugly source code, but it worked none the less. Is that still the case now adays? I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shockacon on September 03, 2014, 12:52:39 AM
Hello,

I have a shot-in-the-dark question about the characters and the possibility of them being lost. When the sunset announcement was first made, someone (and I forget whom it was and apologize) had a program that made XML files out of toon information. After reading the OP, I scrounged around and found several XML files I made of the toons I wanted to save for the heck of it. Would it even be possible to think that those files could be used to incorporate rebuilt toons for the game if everything with this business deal goes through?

Shockacon
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 12:54:00 AM
I have a shot-in-the-dark question about the characters and the possibility of them being lost. When the sunset announcement was first made, someone (and I forget whom it was and apologize) had a program that made XML files out of toon information. After reading the OP, I scrounged around and found several XML files I made of the toons I wanted to save for the heck of it. Would it even be possible to think that those files could be used to incorporate rebuilt toons for the game if everything with this business deal goes through?

Hello Shockacon, and welcome to the conversation :)

Basically there's loads of missing information in those files, and it being used professionally is unlikely. It was never intended to be used for a commercial relaunch, just if we got a private server going.

Sadly, it seems Sentinel+ files will be of little use to us going forward, except to make note of builds/costumes/etc.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: DarkCurrent on September 03, 2014, 12:56:45 AM
Is the paragon store part of the I23 code deal?  A lot of things such as powerstes were only purchaseable there?  If things like account info are gone, how can premium sets be available without the store?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Little David on September 03, 2014, 12:57:53 AM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=adultimum.net%2Fstudio%2Fcityofheroes%2Fblog%2Flittledavidlookingoverwip3.png)

This is literally how I reacted when I read this thread. Though if I really had the cigar, it would have fallen out of my mouth by now.

Holy crap, man. Thank you so much for all you've done. For both the City of Heroes and the City of Titans.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 01:18:05 AM
Time does change things. I'm not at all sure I want to play 14 hours a day, even on a weekend like I did before. (I was unemployed for a year in 2011) That's just playing to be playing, forgetting about the real world. I'll be far more casual than I ever was - but you can bet I'll get me a level 50 as quickly as I can so I can lead those iTrials.

That's precisely why I had so many 50s and had the time to create a Warshade guide that was 50+ pages long as well as dozens of "sample builds" inserted into it... I was unemployed for much of 2008-2009 (due to the 2008 economic meltdown), and playing every day then was what I did to keep myself from going deeper into depression and self-loathing about my inabilities to do anything at the time.

One of these days, I'm going to create a thread and detail exactly everything that CoH meant to me, but I need to do it during a time that I won't be breaking down crying half the time. I need to be able to finish it. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hejtmane on September 03, 2014, 01:23:06 AM
Hello,

I have a shot-in-the-dark question about the characters and the possibility of them being lost. When the sunset announcement was first made, someone (and I forget whom it was and apologize) had a program that made XML files out of toon information. After reading the OP, I scrounged around and found several XML files I made of the toons I wanted to save for the heck of it. Would it even be possible to think that those files could be used to incorporate rebuilt toons for the game if everything with this business deal goes through?

Shockacon

That and I can edit mine to have whatever I want and what was missing hey I need a couple extra purple sets and maybe a couple pvp IO's I was missing
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sihada on September 03, 2014, 01:23:29 AM
I used a decompiler to turn a finished program back into it source code. No comments of course, and it produced some pretty horrifically ugly source code, but it worked none the less. Is that still the case now adays? I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.
Decompilers only work really well for certain types of programming languages, and the CoH binary is almost certain not one of them.

More to the point, if CoH were to license the binary, the sort of thing you're suggesting would be in violation of the spirit of the agreement, if not the letter.

Assuming that we get what's described: I23 with no ability to modify or update, I propose that we be happy with that until the CoH1.5 project(s) come to fruition.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Lava-Lad on September 03, 2014, 01:28:42 AM
Completely correct! If a woman owns it, that's pretty shady right there! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

Geez Louise, like the sex of the owner is even relevant. That is the very last of our worries, why was this even mentioned. Thumbs down.  >:(

Agreed
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Codewalker on September 03, 2014, 01:29:42 AM
That and I can edit mine to have whatever I want and what was missing hey I need a couple extra purple sets and maybe a couple pvp IO's I was missing

You'll trip the cheater alarm.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Codewalker on September 03, 2014, 01:31:07 AM
Completely correct! If a woman owns it, that's pretty shady right there! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

When I read the post you're talking about, all I could think of is...

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.startrek.com%2Fuploads%2Fassets%2Fdb_articles%2F0379b23e9845c9c652488c13f7bb557fc62a3642.jpg)

"Everyone knows fe-males don't have the lobes for business!"
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fable on September 03, 2014, 01:31:27 AM
Decompilers only work really well for certain types of programming languages, and the CoH binary is almost certain not one of them.

More to the point, if CoH were to license the binary, the sort of thing you're suggesting would be in violation of the spirit of the agreement, if not the letter.

Assuming that we get what's described: I23 with no ability to modify or update, I propose that we be happy with that until the CoH1.5 project(s) come to fruition.

So basically any efforts on 1.5 would be from the ground up?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 01:35:29 AM
So basically any efforts on 1.5 would be from the ground up?

Irish_Girl has gone into the specifics of the APR efforts so far, and they're basically deconstructing the game bit by bit. It isn't exactly from scratch, but it isn't using the original code.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 03, 2014, 01:35:48 AM
Not a bad thing at all.   Those tracks still sound awesome to me.

The only request if anything is to some what overhaul the attack sounds. The "wobble" from psi attacks and Ice Slick making the same sound as Assault Rifle "Buckshot" are some of the reasons why I played CoX on mute
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 03, 2014, 01:44:40 AM
When I read the post you're talking about, all I could think of is...

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.startrek.com%2Fuploads%2Fassets%2Fdb_articles%2F0379b23e9845c9c652488c13f7bb557fc62a3642.jpg)

"Everyone knows fe-males don't have the lobes for business!"

Oh Quark! And you wonder why Major Kira always turns you down.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 01:57:53 AM
When I read the post you're talking about, all I could think of is...

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.startrek.com%2Fuploads%2Fassets%2Fdb_articles%2F0379b23e9845c9c652488c13f7bb557fc62a3642.jpg)

"Everyone knows fe-males don't have the lobes for business!"
This has made my evening. Lol.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ukaserex on September 03, 2014, 02:01:33 AM
That's precisely why I had so many 50s and had the time to create a Warshade guide that was 50+ pages long as well as dozens of "sample builds" inserted into it... I was unemployed for much of 2008-2009 (due to the 2008 economic meltdown), and playing every day then was what I did to keep myself from going deeper into depression and self-loathing about my inabilities to do anything at the time.

One of these days, I'm going to create a thread and detail exactly everything that CoH meant to me, but I need to do it during a time that I won't be breaking down crying half the time. I need to be able to finish it. :)

Um...was your coh forum name Dechs Kaison? If so, you should know I modeled my own warshade after that playstyle. It was an epic guide.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 03, 2014, 02:12:59 AM
That's precisely why I had so many 50s and had the time to create a Warshade guide that was 50+ pages long as well as dozens of "sample builds" inserted into it... I was unemployed for much of 2008-2009 (due to the 2008 economic meltdown), and playing every day then was what I did to keep myself from going deeper into depression and self-loathing about my inabilities to do anything at the time.

One of these days, I'm going to create a thread and detail exactly everything that CoH meant to me, but I need to do it during a time that I won't be breaking down crying half the time. I need to be able to finish it. :)
That was you?

You were my hero! Enabled me to turn my "this sucks" guy into an awesome kick-ass monster!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sinistar on September 03, 2014, 02:23:30 AM
No, everyone is several dozen concepts deep into Icon and/or Mid's

Yes, I admit to this. I have been going through MIDS looking at each build for my characters and finishing a few unfinished builds. 

Not sure if I'll bring all my characters back if the game returns, but my core characters will return.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: themamboman on September 03, 2014, 02:30:58 AM
It appears that the Valiance Online team has declined reworking their game to make it part of City of Heroes universe.  It was announced on their facebook page.  They were respectful of Paragon and Nate and MWM but it sounds like they've gone too far into development to go back and rewrite everything.

No worries, I'll play their game too.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 02:39:04 AM
Um...was your coh forum name Dechs Kaison? If so, you should know I modeled my own warshade after that playstyle. It was an epic guide.

That was you?

You were my hero! Enabled me to turn my "this sucks" guy into an awesome kick-ass monster!

No, no, no.... Credit where credit is due! Dechs was one of my own personal heroes...His guide on the softcapping defenses was what got me really into min/maxing and inspired me to enhance and fully revise my guide two years later! (And, dare I say, my original guide was what inspired him to write his Warshade guide!) I had many a good conversation with him, and we linked each other's guides within our own guides. My forum name was AlienOne there as it is here. His guide was primarily geared towards tri-form Warshading (fantastic guide!), and my guide was specifically for human-only form Warshading. We each tackled Warshades via different playstyles, although we both took a page from each other's book and tried out each other's builds.

He was a total legend in the Kheldian community. I can't take credit for his work. Is he even around these boards? I have never seen him...

Here's my original guide--you can see him in the comment section ask me if I was going to write a tri-form guide and then threaten to make his own (I'm glad he did!):
https://web.archive.org/web/20120906174916/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=190529

And here is my "newly revised" guide (at the time) posted two years later, which I thought was way more thorough and much more in-depth:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120906052513/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=280670

And here is Dech's guide:
http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011/01/mfing-warshade.html
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 02:50:09 AM
He was a total legend in the Kheldian community.

Not just for Khelds - his guide to tanking were why I became a good tank! Without them I dunno where I'd be!

I've been wishing I could find some modern (i23 compliant, not just for the relaunch but because PBs changed a LOT) PB buildcraft theory to read over just as something to pass the time, but I haven't had much luck in searching.

I'd forgotten his name because I read all of his guides thoroughly after the tank guide helped me learn so much, but it was awhile ago. Couldn't remember his handle. Even if I can't do anything with the info, reading this sort of thing is really fun for me... so thanks for the links! :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 02:51:46 AM
Not just for Khelds - his guide to tanking were why I became a good tank! Without them I dunno where I'd be!

I've been wishing I could find some modern (i23 compliant, not just for the relaunch but because PBs changed a LOT) PB buildcraft theory to read over just as something to pass the time, but I haven't had much luck in searching.

I'd forgotten his name because I read all of his guides thoroughly after the tank guide helped me learn so much, but it was awhile ago. Couldn't remember his handle. Even if I can't do anything with the info, reading this sort of thing is really fun for me... so thanks for the links! :D

Not a problem! I plan to finish up my guide if/when CoH goes back up... I only had to finish up the Incarnate section (and add a few videos) before it was complete. If you happen to read one of my guides, please read the second one--it's much better, easier to read, and more thorough. I only posted the first one I wrote because I wanted to show Dech's comment... :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: felix on September 03, 2014, 02:56:18 AM
I also learned what I know about tanking from Dechs Kaison. (DA/SS Tank) And then I met him, just a few nights after the end was announced. Great guy.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 03, 2014, 02:56:24 AM
That Tank Guide.. was more than a Guide.. It was Literature....


http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011/06/last-rule-of-tanking.html
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 03:11:50 AM
Great guy.

For sure... He was one of the people that (to me) embodied everything that was good about the CoH community. The fact that I got to know him, interact with him, and even receive compliments from him (and Smiling Joe--another forum legend) is really what gave me a sense of self-worth at the time. I know that may sound a little crazy, but going through unemployment for over a year and having no one hire you will do many things to a person's psyche.

City of Heroes was way, way, way more meaningful to some people than a lot of the business people over there in Korea even realized (I think). I think a lot of the CoH devs understood it though...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Desmartica on September 03, 2014, 03:16:08 AM
Oh, I used to read all of you guys' stuff too.

But...you probably already knew that.

AIB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXVQYFI83HE

Kheld Friday!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 03:17:22 AM
Oh, I used to read all of you guys' stuff too.

But...you probably already knew that.

AIB

Alien In Black!!! Yeah! All kinds of people coming out of hiding lately! :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 03:17:31 AM
I know that may sound a little crazy, but going through unemployment for over a year and having no one hire you will do many things to a person's psyche.

Sittin on about three at the moment on this end, I know that exact feeling. I used CoH very similarly.

Glad we all still have eachother here, even if it isn't the same... for now :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 03:25:47 AM
Sittin on about three at the moment on this end, I know that exact feeling. I used CoH very similarly.

Glad we all still have eachother here, even if it isn't the same... for now :)

+1

Hang in there. In my experience, it can only get better--and it did!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 03, 2014, 03:31:33 AM
+1

Hang in there. In my experience, it can only get better--and it did!

Good things are better when you wait
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 03, 2014, 03:33:55 AM
Completely off topic, but ... does anyone know if the hosts of the CoH Podcast are still around?  Chooch and Viv.  That was a great podcast ... here's hoping it returns with CoH redux.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: saipaman on September 03, 2014, 03:36:29 AM
I'm not directly involved in the talks with NCSoft, but from what I understand the source is completely off the table, and many of the tools required simply don't exist anymore.

I wouldn't be surprised if all the source code wasn't gone.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Eiko-chan on September 03, 2014, 03:37:58 AM
I'm cautiously optimistic about this, but given the way the world seems to react to me, I'm just going to say I'm not really convinced this thing is going to happen.  Prove me wrong, world!

Anyway, I've got one little question for Irish_Girl: are there any plans to expand APR to the Rogue Isles, or is it a Hero-only project?  Villains were made homeless too!  :'(
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ParagonKid on September 03, 2014, 04:22:32 AM
I'm curious though, apologies if this was asked already, but what of costume codes and booster packs? If the game comes back, will you even be able to generate and sell/give out codes? Otherwise, wouldn't stuff like Justice and Sinister costume sets, Pocket D Tiki VIP, Arachnos Helmets and the like be gone forever?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Aggelakis on September 03, 2014, 04:28:51 AM
I'm curious though, apologies if this was asked already, but what of costume codes and booster packs? If the game comes back, will you even be able to generate and sell/give out codes? Otherwise, wouldn't stuff like Justice and Sinister costume sets, Pocket D Tiki VIP, Arachnos Helmets and the like be gone forever?
Other than "people are talking to NCsoft", there is literally no more information out there yet.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 03, 2014, 04:36:25 AM
Sittin on about three at the moment on this end, I know that exact feeling. I used CoH very similarly.

Glad we all still have eachother here, even if it isn't the same... for now :)

So this is where the unemployment line is. I've done the dance for about 3, then got a temp gig and now looking again.

We'll make it.

Good news is I do have a couple masters degrees now. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 03, 2014, 04:39:45 AM

 The hour is late and the sun set quite a few hours ago and I find myself still in awe and daring to hope that coh may in fact be resurrected..just wow...
  Not sure if we could ever get our original chars. back however, if the game itself could be restored to us I would certainly be happy and ready to re-sub immediately. I can't sleep tonight, no way.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sinistar on September 03, 2014, 04:48:39 AM
Not just for Khelds - his guide to tanking were why I became a good tank! Without them I dunno where I'd be!

I've been wishing I could find some modern (i23 compliant, not just for the relaunch but because PBs changed a LOT) PB buildcraft theory to read over just as something to pass the time, but I haven't had much luck in searching.

I'd forgotten his name because I read all of his guides thoroughly after the tank guide helped me learn so much, but it was awhile ago. Couldn't remember his handle. Even if I can't do anything with the info, reading this sort of thing is really fun for me... so thanks for the links! :D

Dechs' guides were great and his warshade guide helped me tune up my three warshades.  He did ask me once to review his PB guide as I recall since he knew I enjoyed PB's.

Should the game return I'll have to see about locating and updating my guide to speeding up Stone Brutes/Tanks.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: impiousimp on September 03, 2014, 04:52:39 AM
Where does one volunteer to help APR or COT?

I don't have MAD art skills, but I have decent ones. 

http://kuraichan.deviantart.com
http://impiousimp.deviantart.com
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: PsychicKitty on September 03, 2014, 05:10:12 AM
so basically its another we have to wait till next year for more information.....

uh huh

 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 03, 2014, 05:15:30 AM
so basically its another we have to wait till next year for more information.....

uh huh


   I don't think that is what is being said.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 05:21:47 AM
I'm cautiously optimistic about this, but given the way the world seems to react to me, I'm just going to say I'm not really convinced this thing is going to happen.  Prove me wrong, world!

Anyway, I've got one little question for Irish_Girl: are there any plans to expand APR to the Rogue Isles, or is it a Hero-only project?  Villains were made homeless too!  :'(

I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to ask me about redside. Um... It's planned? That's, unfortunately, all the detail I really have on it ATM.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 05:22:04 AM
so basically its another we have to wait till next year for more information.....

uh huh

It's more "even if everything goes off without a hitch from here on out, it is an unreasonable assumption to imagine CoH back up and running before next year"

There will likely be news - but even if the deal happens there's financing, there's servers, there's getting everything working...

Unfortunately, this isn't as easy as "We can do it, you don't get anything out of saying no, you agree? Cool, flip the switches and we're back in Paragon City."
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 05:27:35 AM
Unfortunately, this isn't as easy as "We can do it, you don't get anything out of saying no, you agree? Cool, flip the switches and we're back in Paragon City."

That would be lovely. There's a lot of work that would need to be done after the acquisition, however.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: amrobinson on September 03, 2014, 05:28:06 AM
Let me come right out and admit that the apparent loss of the i24 perfection patch has hit me harder than expected. So let me ask, is there a way to get i24? I would move a lot of mountains to get i24 back. Is it a money thing? I am so in mourning for it I would donate quite a bit to get us that issue - perhaps other people would too.

Do we have to give up on i24 CoX now, or is there a way?

I was literally salivating at the prospect of i24 and the goodies within...significant blasters enhancements (my signature character is an elec/en blaster), a new concept of power pools, which instead of filling in holes in a character could actually be used to flavor the character's power suite (gadgets, sorcery, etc), and so on.

Given a choice between regaining my horde of prior characters and i24, I'd go for the latter in a heartbeat.

brought to you by
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.idx360.com%2Fwarlockinc%2Flordminion.png)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sinistar on September 03, 2014, 05:56:31 AM
Let me come right out and admit that the apparent loss of the i24 perfection patch has hit me harder than expected. So let me ask, is there a way to get i24? I would move a lot of mountains to get i24 back. Is it a money thing? I am so in mourning for it I would donate quite a bit to get us that issue - perhaps other people would too.

Do we have to give up on i24 CoX now, or is there a way?

Well ish 24 wasn't complete as far as the IO changes and probably some other areas as well, then of course there would have to be some testing to iron out any major kinks and flaws.

I would very much love to see ish 24 should the game return, but ish 23 will be fine.  The main thing is that the game would be back.

I'd say get ish 23 up and running, then convert to Unreal 4 engine and THEN start adding in issue 24 elements into the new engine.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 06:02:00 AM
I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to ask me about redside. Um... It's planned? That's, unfortunately, all the detail I really have on it ATM.

Just as a small suggestion, and I'm 100% you have your own plan for progressing, but were -I- doing APR, I'd focus on just getting Atlas Park functioning, getting the game mechanics in place, doing just ONE powerset and AT initially and getting small selection of missions going.  That gives you enough to have something for people to beta test and should reduce the immediate workload.

One you have the basics going, the rest will follow much more quickly.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 06:04:04 AM
It's more "even if everything goes off without a hitch from here on out, it is an unreasonable assumption to imagine CoH back up and running before next year"

To my mind, the most important bit of news after the "Yes", is just WHO will run this holding company and "own" the CoH IP?  It's going to have to be someone we all really trust to do the right thing with it.

I know who I'd have in mind... (Looks towards the forum banner)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 03, 2014, 06:14:00 AM
I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to ask me about redside. Um... It's planned? That's, unfortunately, all the detail I really have on it ATM.

Gold Side! Gold Side!

All Hail Emperor Cole!

(But seriously, I'm sure you've got a lot on your plate, and even more to come, and we don't have anything close to a sure win yet, so I wouldn't want to pile it one even further.

That said, Praetoria is my personal favorite part of CoX, and I'd be more than happy to lend whatever meager help I could to getting that side of things up and running, should it ever come to pass.)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Stealth Dart on September 03, 2014, 06:26:10 AM
Someone had asked about why Atlas Park Revival would be using the City of Titans Build.

I am not a programmer.  Let me state this right up front.  My brother is the game programmer in the family.  So this is my understanding.  So the game has two main parts.  You have the game engine.  In this case Unreal Engine 4.  Both City of Titans and Atlas Park Revival are using the same game engine.  So you have compatibility there.  Unreal Engine basically renders the environment, the characters, the mobs, the powers via particle effect animations etc..,

However the engine still needs instructions on what to display, when to display it, where to display it, etc...
This is where the build comes in to play.  By using a modified version of the COT build it gives APR a leg up on the code end of the game without having to right their own code.  They will most likely need to tweak, modify, adapt such code to better suit the look and feel of the game.  Even with the MMO support built in you still need to tell the engine what to do.  This is my layman understanding of the process.  I am sure others with more programming expertise will feel free to correct/criticize any errors in my post.   :P

Keeping in mind that we do not have the COH source code....this means no new content...no new powersets, no new anything....this is why I23 will be maintenance mode only.  By using the COT build you get the ability to alter the code, add new code and adjust as needed.  This means new content, new story arcs, new power sets, new zones, etc.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Stealth Dart on September 03, 2014, 06:31:31 AM
Gold Side! Gold Side!

All Hail Emperor Cole!

You! You! Loyalist!  LOL  :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 03, 2014, 07:01:05 AM
Someone had asked about why Atlas Park Revival would be using the City of Titans Build.

I am not a programmer.  Let me state this right up front.  My brother is the game programmer in the family.  So this is my understanding.  So the game has two main parts.  You have the game engine.  In this case Unreal Engine 4.  Both City of Titans and Atlas Park Revival are using the same game engine.  So you have compatibility there.  Unreal Engine basically renders the environment, the characters, the mobs, the powers via particle effect animations etc..,

However the engine still needs instructions on what to display, when to display it, where to display it, etc...
This is where the build comes in to play.  By using a modified version of the COT build it gives APR a leg up on the code end of the game without having to right their own code.  They will most likely need to tweak, modify, adapt such code to better suit the look and feel of the game.  Even with the MMO support built in you still need to tell the engine what to do.  This is my layman understanding of the process.  I am sure others with more programming expertise will feel free to correct/criticize any errors in my post.   :P

Keeping in mind that we do not have the COH source code....this means no new content...no new powersets, no new anything....this is why I23 will be maintenance mode only.  By using the COT build you get the ability to alter the code, add new code and adjust as needed.  This means new content, new story arcs, new power sets, new zones, etc.

You are definitely on the right track with your explanation.

Let me add that CoT is being created by people who want the same feel as we had with CoH. That pretty much means that a certain portion of their code is probably set very similar to what would have to be created for CoH 1.5.
Things like a costume creator would have already been started and that gives Irish_Girl and anyone helping her a leg up in the process.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 07:03:48 AM
On the subject of doing the Rogue Isles, and Praetoria....
When I started the project...My goal was Atlas Park. Hence the name "Atlas Park Revival".
Partially because I had high hopes that it would only be a few months before we got the game back.
Obviously, the scope of that project has expanded greatly. Cosmically, even.
Even more so since I started working closely with this crazy guy by the name of Nate Downes.

Anything and everything that was a part of City of Heroes, I want to re-build.
Everything from Atlas Park, to Grandville, to Nova Praetoria. '
At the moment, I do not have a plan on where Villain side and Praetoria fit into the schedule.
After the next week, I'm going to start looking at expanding the team quite a bit. That's something that I'll be discussing with the team after I've grown it a little, and everyone's settled in.

I know that's essentially a really fancy way of saying "-shrug-", and I'm really sorry I don't have a better answer as of yet.
Paragon Studios always had to make hard choices with Redside, because such a small portion of the playerbase was reported to be there.
I don't want the Rogue Isles to fall into the same state of disrepair. Even if only 30 percent of players are there, that's still 30 percent, and I always felt having Redside (and later Gold) was critically important to making City of Heroes what it was.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 03, 2014, 07:05:53 AM
This has made my evening. Lol.
Hummmman fe-males doing business AND wearing clothes! What is the galaxy coming too?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 07:07:22 AM
You are definitely on the right track with your explanation.

Let me add that CoT is being created by people who want the same feel as we had with CoH. That pretty much means that a certain portion of their code is probably set very similar to what would have to be created for CoH 1.5.
Things like a costume creator would have already been started and that gives Irish_Girl and anyone helping her a leg up in the process.

and that's exactly why we made an arrangement for us to build off their code.
Why have two separate groups re-invent the wheel, when we can work together?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 07:08:17 AM
Hummmm-On

:P Say it proper.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Triplash on September 03, 2014, 07:52:28 AM
I just want to say thanks again to the people who are out there trying things like this on behalf of the rest of us. It's a lot of effort that you didn't have to take on, and while there's no guarantees about the outcome, there is one certainty - we'd never even have a chance if it weren't for you guys trying. So... y'know... thanks! :)

Hopefully this goes well, and leads to many good things!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 08:09:02 AM
I know that's essentially a really fancy way of saying "-shrug-", and I'm really sorry I don't have a better answer as of yet.

To me, this reads as being reasonable.

At the moment, you're a one person team. As a woman who often would fly from one end of a zone to another while chattin with her SG friends or RPing a patrol, Paragon City alone is HUGE. There's a reason pre fly speed buffs people would go afk to bio or grab a drink between missions if the next door was on the other side of say, IP. Making assumptions on how quickly you could build all of Paragon - hazard zones and all - and then the Rogue Isles, Gold Side... that sounds premature. Especially with how everyone is struggling not to hold their breaths.

Really hope there'll be some way I can help - I have entirely too much free time and being a part of this would be epic.

But that's no pressure, this community is full of talented people ready and happy to help rebirth our city in new shiny tech. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 03, 2014, 08:13:19 AM
I'd love to know what Matt Miller and some of the former Paragon folks think of all this.  Positrons twitter is silent on the matter.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 08:16:23 AM
I'd love to know what Matt Miller and some of the former Paragon folks think of all this.  Positrons twitter is silent on the matter.

He might not feel he's in a position where it would be inappropriate for him to say anything on the matter, as well as concern over impacting his career.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Stealth Dart on September 03, 2014, 08:21:51 AM
New Shiny Tech!  We wants it!  We needs it!  my preciousssss.....

http://youtu.be/Gk4Ntcq5uNg
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: impiousimp on September 03, 2014, 08:30:51 AM
@Irish_Girl

How many volunteers do you have?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 08:38:24 AM
@Irish_Girl
How many volunteers do you have?

At the moment It's just myself, with some occasional helping keeping the website running from Neo Ravencroft.
That's going to be changing soon however. I plan on ramping up the team size.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: kribbla on September 03, 2014, 09:23:43 AM
I have some dumb question about this Source Code Thing.
Will it be possible for the Future Devs without this Code, let's say, to edit the Title Screens to Rename the Game, change the Picture or change the Server List if less Server will be available?

Sorry for this stupid Question. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 09:27:43 AM
I have some dumb question about this Source Code Thing.
Will it be possible for the Future Devs without this Code, let's say, to edit the Title Screens to Rename the Game, change the Picture or change the Server List if less Server will be available?

Sorry for this stupid Question. :)

Until they get their hands on it and play around, assume that w/o source code, i23 will be the same as it was when Paragon ran it.

That seems the safe bet to me :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 09:37:31 AM
I have some dumb question about this Source Code Thing.
Will it be possible for the Future Devs without this Code, let's say, to edit the Title Screens to Rename the Game, change the Picture or change the Server List if less Server will be available?

Sorry for this stupid Question. :)

The pictures, no. That will almost certainly need the source code.

The server list, yes. That's going to be database based and is a variable list of values.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 09:52:47 AM
The pictures, no. That will almost certainly need the source code.

The server list, yes. That's going to be database based and is a variable list of values.

The title screen background could be changed, Kinda. I know of a nifty little program called NeoSplasher that does exactly that.
Never used it, but I hear it works quite well.

EDIT: But really...Yeah... As it was, is as it will be. Very little possible modification.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 09:56:07 AM
The title screen background could be changed, Kinda. I know of a nifty little program called NeoSplasher that does exactly that.
Never used it, but I hear it works quite well.

I think that mods one of the PIGGS?  Without the source code, they're not going to be able to build patch updates, so to change that, they'd have to send out a whole new PIGG, and who knows if they've hardcoded file offset locations in those....  Not worth the effort and risk, IMO.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 10:03:53 AM
I think that mods one of the PIGGS?  Without the source code, they're not going to be able to build patch updates, so to change that, they'd have to send out a whole new PIGG, and who knows if they've hardcoded file offset locations in those....  Not worth the effort and risk, IMO.

Prolly not worth it, and it's not like there would be new content to show off on the main screen.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: duane on September 03, 2014, 10:46:25 AM
Hummmman fe-males doing business AND wearing clothes! What is the galaxy coming too?

Back to the Dabo tables, Quark
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: silvers1 on September 03, 2014, 11:09:54 AM
Quote
Even if only 30 percent of players are there, that's still 30 percent, and I always felt having Redside (and later Gold) was critically important to making City of Heroes what it was.

Personally, I would put less of a priority on Gold side.   The devs royally screwed up on so much of the content there, as far as soloability goes.   There are a number of missions that are a royal pain on a DPS toon, and virtually impossible on a support.   And since everyone stopped playing there, getting a team was difficult.   After all, why go through all that pain when you can rinse/repeat a DFB?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 03, 2014, 11:25:09 AM
Both City of Titans and Atlas Park Revival are using the same game engine.  So you have compatibility there.  Unreal Engine basically renders the environment, the characters, the mobs, the powers via particle effect animations etc..,

However the engine still needs instructions on what to display, when to display it, where to display it, etc...
This is where the build comes in to play.  By using a modified version of the COT build it gives APR a leg up on the code end of the game without having to right their own code.  They will most likely need to tweak, modify, adapt such code to better suit the look and feel of the game.  Even with the MMO support built in you still need to tell the engine what to do. 

Seems perfectly sensible, and even optimal if you want to keep the feel close.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Safehouse on September 03, 2014, 11:28:21 AM
At the moment It's just myself, with some occasional helping keeping the website running from Neo Ravencroft.
That's going to be changing soon however. I plan on ramping up the team size.

I'd be happy to help, in any way I can. I'm not the BIGGEST techy (maybe I could get my brother-in-law involved there) but I'm a writer, with a weird and wild imagination, and I tend to look at things from different angles.

And I'm sure if you asked around here you'd have TONS of people who would want to get involved.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 11:42:43 AM
At the moment It's just myself, with some occasional helping keeping the website running from Neo Ravencroft.
That's going to be changing soon however. I plan on ramping up the team size.

I am ready to learn UnReal 4 and start helping. I have a few questions - the $19 a month is it for just one "slot" or rather per person? I just wondered if it can be installed on more than one computer at a time for that price - if so we could pool the licenses.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cobra Man on September 03, 2014, 11:46:54 AM
I suppose I could be convinced to bring some APR-related enlightenment to the masses.
Let's see here... Zone wise...

Atlas Park - The zone with the most work into it, by far. Perhaps 70% finished. All the streets are laid out, many of the buildings are in place, Trees are even starting to be put down in places.
Steel Canyon - 20-30% completed
Galaxy City - 20-30% completed
Independence Port - 10% completed
Founders Falls - 20-30% completed
Talos Island 10-20%
Perez Park - 10%
"The Hollows" - 10%
Sirens Call - 5%
Pocket D - 50%
and of course, the zone we unveiled our move to Unreal Engine 4 with...
Ouroboros - 95%

Technically, I can walk around any of the zones atm. I'm nothing but a Rikti Drone, and I've got no powers or anything.
Since we're going to be using a version of the City of Titans UE4 build, more work on character creation and powers and what have you is dependent on their work schedule. Not that APR is lacking in work in the mean time!

The geometries from the meshes are currently mostly pulled from Legacy CoH, but rarely are they un-modified. Many meshes have simply had to be re-built from scratch for one reason or another.
Don't even get me started on textures. -shakes head- 64x64 textures for the sides of buildings might have cut it in 2004.

I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff...I really should write all this down. heh


Hey Irish Girl  :D

Would it possible to share some images or clips of the zones that you've started on that haven't been put online so far?

If you've already fielded this question please ignore it - I couldn't see it being asked in this thread.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 11:58:29 AM

Hey Irish Girl  :D

Would it possible to share some images or clips of the zones that you've started on that haven't been put online so far?

If you've already fielded this question please ignore it - I couldn't see it being asked in this thread.

I have not fielded said question, actually.
Yeah, I think I can scrounge up some teasers if you guys really want.
I'm not sure if I want to turn this thread into a Revival picture show however... I suppose it's teeeeeechnically not off topic?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 12:01:12 PM
I am ready to learn UnReal 4 and start helping. I have a few questions - the $19 a month is it for just one "slot" or rather per person? I just wondered if it can be installed on more than one computer at a time for that price - if so we could pool the licenses.

I'd have to re-read the UE4 license agreement... But yes, I believe it's $19 per person. You don't have to pay monthly, I don't. You only need to pay initially, and when you need updates from Epic.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: themamboman on September 03, 2014, 12:01:31 PM

Hey Irish Girl  :D

Would it possible to share some images or clips of the zones that you've started on that haven't been put online so far?

If you've already fielded this question please ignore it - I couldn't see it being asked in this thread.
https://www.facebook.com/AtlasParkRevival
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 12:52:59 PM
I'd have to re-read the UE4 license agreement... But yes, I believe it's $19 per person. You don't have to pay monthly, I don't. You only need to pay initially, and when you need updates from Epic.

Ok, I will pick it up and download it tonight. I will also make the offer that if any graphic artists don't have the $19 let me know I may be able to speak to Epic and make an arrangement to buy more than one and be able to give out the codes.

Irishgirl, I asked Tony V but I am not sure he asked you - do you want a section of the forums for this project? It might be nice to have threads for each part of the effort?

Now time to change focus for me! The deal is in process and we know the future of our new home is UnReal 4. Deal or no deal anything we do can be ported to CoT as it will not be NCSoft's work but ours. To me this is a good way to help as we could share assets with CoT as they will be with this project.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 01:01:50 PM
Ok, I will pick it up and download it tonight. I will also make the offer that if any graphic artists don't have the $19 let me know I may be able to speak to Epic and make an arrangement to buy more than one and be able to give out the codes.

Irishgirl, I asked Tony V but I am not sure he asked you - do you want a section of the forums for this project? It might be nice to have threads for each part of the effort?

Now time to change focus for me! The deal is in process and we know the future of our new home is UnReal 4. Deal or no deal anything we do can be ported to CoT as it will not be NCSoft's work but ours. To me this is a good way to help as we could share assets with CoT as they will be with this project.

Yeah, I'm already delving into my "Mastering Unreal Technology" book and I'll be purchasing a license myself by the end of the week and hopefully expanding on the tiny sliver of knowledge I gained about Unreal about a decade ago... I'm sure thousands of things have changed since then.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Sihada on September 03, 2014, 01:03:52 PM
So basically any efforts on 1.5 would be from the ground up?
Not entirely.

Thanks to the efforts of many folks in the community, a great deal of the data that drives the game is known and documented (e.g. how much damage does a level-1 energy bolt do?  How much damage is added by one damage enhancement, etc.).  Because so much of this is known, re-implementing those numbers into a new engine is actually one of the smaller tasks ahead of the developers.

Also, the new developers get to reap the benefits of all of the balancing work done by the CoH team during the game's lifecycle.  Balancing game systems is some of the hardest work in game design; while CoH isn't perfectly balanced, it's way ahead of where a completely new game would be.

Most importantly, there is a concrete picture of what the finished product should resemble.  I'm a software developer, and I can't overstate the value of this.  Once the MWM developers start getting playable builds, they'll be able to run their build side-by-side with I23 CoH and say, "does this feel like COH?  Is this better?  Is this worse?  Is it too different?  Not different enough?  Is this what we want?  Is this what we believe the community will want?"

So, from the perspective of actually writing code and building the game, they are starting from scratch.  However, they get the benefit of years of pre- and post-launch design work.

Hope this answers your question. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 01:09:46 PM
Yeah, I'm already delving into my "Mastering Unreal Technology" book and I'll be purchasing a license myself by the end of the week and hopefully expanding on the tiny sliver of knowledge I gained about Unreal about a decade ago... I'm sure thousands of things have changed since then.

I actually tinkered with UnReal 3 a bit back and made a map and was flying around in it. However UnReal 4 is completely on another level. I know once we get things organized we can start sharing best practices and any easy ways we find to do things. I was even considering taking a look at re-creating Icon if possible - because having the character creator back as a stand-alone would damn near be worth $5-10 dollars on its own.

Of course their would be one in game but having the stand-alone as an option and I know UR4 supports mobile phones too. So a character creator app for $5 might be a great way to start funding the project.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 01:14:13 PM
Not entirely.

Thanks to the efforts of many folks in the community, a great deal of the data that drives the game is known and documented (e.g. how much damage does a level-1 energy bolt do?  How much damage is added by one damage enhancement, etc.).  Because so much of this is known, re-implementing those numbers into a new engine is actually one of the smaller tasks ahead of the developers.

Also, the new developers get to reap the benefits of all of the balancing work done by the CoH team during the game's lifecycle.  Balancing game systems is some of the hardest work in game design; while CoH isn't perfectly balanced, it's way ahead of where a completely new game would be.

Most importantly, there is a concrete picture of what the finished product should resemble.  I'm a software developer, and I can't overstate the value of this.  Once the MWM developers start getting playable builds, they'll be able to run their build side-by-side with I23 CoH and say, "does this feel like COH?  Is this better?  Is this worse?  Is it too different?  Not different enough?  Is this what we want?  Is this what we believe the community will want?"

So, from the perspective of actually writing code and building the game, they are starting from scratch.  However, they get the benefit of years of pre- and post-launch design work.

Hope this answers your question. :)

Also in UR4 a lot of this information can be directly entered and those exact values copied over. So in CoH 1.5 that bolt will do the exact same damage. It saves a ton of time and people don't have to be programmers to enter data once we have the Engine figured out. Some of the grunt work can then be done by basically anyone. This is a huge advantage and with thousands of willing minions to proofread, double and triple check values - it should be very helpful.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 01:23:58 PM
I actually tinkered with UnReal 3 a bit back and made a map and was flying around in it. However UnReal 4 is completely on another level. I know once we get things organized we can start sharing best practices and any easy ways we find to do things. I was even considering taking a look at re-creating Icon if possible - because having the character creator back as a stand-alone would damn near be worth $5-10 dollars on its own.

Of course their would be one in game but having the stand-alone as an option and I know UR4 supports mobile phones too. So a character creator app for $5 might be a great way to start funding the project.

That's an EXCELLENT suggestion. Putting some kind of functionality for saving a costume you created within the app and importing it into the game would be invaluable. I'm imagining some people in the community having jobs where they travel and can't always log in. But, while they're in a hotel, they can tinker around on the app on their iPad or Android device and come up with some ideas for a new toon.

I know some of the coding members of our community's heads would explode, but wouldn't it be cool to have an app for Mid's Hero Designer as well? Or....even better, make the costume creator and Mid's into one standalone "Hero Designer" app that allows you to literally design your hero from the ground up (costume creation AND power selections)! I'd pay for that!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 01:25:15 PM
Yeah, I think I can scrounge up some teasers if you guys really want.
I'm not sure if I want to turn this thread into a Revival picture show however... I suppose it's teeeeeechnically not off topic?

Ok, so...by special request. New pictures of REALLY unpolished stuff.
Warning: Seriously under construction.
Images will be hidden under spoiler tags, so Agge doesn't smack me with her mod hat.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10644522_329455817214641_6698756546108573220_o.jpg)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/10543567_329455773881312_5889642776631709311_o.jpg)
The plaza of Steel Canyon's University.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10648348_329455763881313_9190186255596272964_o.jpg)
The first shot of Independence Port.
In this picture, you might be able to see the hintings of one of my favorite changes that I'm making.
If you're flying along, and you look out past the War Walls...You can see the rest of Paragon City in the distance.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/10580708_329455787214644_2155914609070580591_o.jpg)
Another shot of I.P. a tad closer to the bridge.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10669372_329455810547975_2418838020023202468_o.jpg)
I have no idea where this is. I think it's from a different game. /sarcasm

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10669040_329455807214642_4537574222062157673_o.jpg)
This picture...is Paragon City from above. It should have the War Walls for just about all of the cities zones. Only Atlas Park, Independance Port, and Founders Falls have any of the zone detail showing in this image however.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hejtmane on September 03, 2014, 01:30:11 PM
Wish I could offer help but I am not a coder or a graphic artist; I am an infrastructure guy. I can help support servers VMware and stuff like that good luck with all the code and unreal ports you guys got a lot of work ahead of you. I just hope NCSoft does the right thing I have faith that it will happen
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: DragonLord on September 03, 2014, 01:31:10 PM
I've read so much in the past two days on every forums and Facebook  Fansites  and now a lot of the gaming magazines are posting about the possible second coming of city of heroes, I just hope that NC Soft see this as a positive to let the players play the game that we all loved for so long.Yesterday I decided to download the icon and play around with it I didn't want to get hook back into that like this I want the whole thing even if its without our toons I JUST WANT TO PLAY.   Like my other passion is Disney im going to quote a song title LET it Go. Long time player.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 03, 2014, 01:33:50 PM
My sister is wanting to use UR4 for our studio's project and has a license. Might be time for me to pick up one as well if I can help out with it. I don't have the sort of clear memories of a lot of it to build the world again, but I'd cheerfully help with data entry.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MWRuger on September 03, 2014, 01:34:12 PM
I am ready to learn UnReal 4 and start helping. I have a few questions - the $19 a month is it for just one "slot" or rather per person? I just wondered if it can be installed on more than one computer at a time for that price - if so we could pool the licenses.

I'll pay for a license for my use in the team. I also have CS6 licensed and legal.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Eiko-chan on September 03, 2014, 01:34:37 PM
I know that's essentially a really fancy way of saying "-shrug-", and I'm really sorry I don't have a better answer as of yet.
It's better than the "Nah, screw villains" I could have expected from NC, so I'll take it!  ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Safehouse on September 03, 2014, 01:40:06 PM
So so happy to see you are making paragon city visible through war walls. I always thought that would be a nice touch.

For work that you're doing mostly alone, I am incredibly impressed!

It brings my excitement for this (even just the possibility) to a whole new level!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: CrimsonCapacitor on September 03, 2014, 01:53:25 PM
I don't know how anyone is keeping track of offers to help...

I don't know much about programming. 

I do know Photoshop pretty well, and have a legal version.  I could pop for the UE4 License...  But I don't want to drown anyone with yet another offer to help.  Is there a sticky or something about who to contact to see if my skill set(s) is needed?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 03, 2014, 01:54:42 PM
Where does one volunteer to help APR or COT?

I don't have MAD art skills, but I have decent ones. 

http://kuraichan.deviantart.com
http://impiousimp.deviantart.com

I do stick figures that have been in accidents so I wont volunteer
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 01:59:15 PM
On the subject of inquiry as to joining APR...
That is a subject I'll be dealing with next week. Most of this week is being dedicated to cleaning, packing, and carrying boxes of stuff (All of which I'm sure I'll regret owning as I'm having to carry it up 3 flights of stairs.)
I don't really have the time, or focus to try and organize people at the moment, and it would just end up being a mess I'd have to untangle next week anyways.

As for joining City of Titans...
I'm not involved there, so... don't look at me.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: CrimsonCapacitor on September 03, 2014, 02:01:27 PM

As for joining City of Titans...
I'm not involved there, so... don't look at me.

Why?  Are they coming apart?

I LOVE that old joke!   ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 02:01:48 PM
I do stick figures that have been in accidents so I wont volunteer

In UR4 you don't have to necessarily be a great artist - I am not. But you can apply the textures and make the maps that others define. Let's say one person lays out the buildings and then the next person applies the textures required, it frees the artist to keep working and not do the simple but time consuming task of texturing everything.

If you want to see how simple it can be download the UnReal 3 Engine and tinker around. Watch a few youtube videos on how to do it and you will be pleasantly surprised how quick you can catch on.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 02:10:10 PM
On the subject of inquiry as to joining APR...
That is a subject I'll be dealing with next week. Most of this week is being dedicated to cleaning, packing, and carrying boxes of stuff (All of which I'm sure I'll regret owning as I'm having to carry it up 3 flights of stairs.)

Remember.. If it's still in a box 6 weeks later, throw it out... You don't need it. :p
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 02:12:00 PM
The main thing is to remember - Irishgirl calls the shots.

With so much excitement people will become over excited and think their way is better. One person has to be the lead. Irishgirl is that person until she says oh hell no, or decides she would rather design more than coordinate. Don't forget that she has been doing this alone. The offers of help can be overwhelming.

A new website or forum here is going to definitely be needed. A list of volunteers and skills - all the good stuff that needs to be done. I don't doubt that we have some highly qualified people to help. Once the dust settles it is time to do the hard work.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 02:27:19 PM
I'd have to re-read the UE4 license agreement... But yes, I believe it's $19 per person. You don't have to pay monthly, I don't. You only need to pay initially, and when you need updates from Epic.

I just went to the page, and it says "$19/mo"... Are you sure it's not a monthly charge?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 03, 2014, 02:28:46 PM
I just went to the page, and it says "$19/mo"... Are you sure it's not a monthly charge?
You can opt to buy one month and not to continue. You do not get any updates that way, and they do several a month.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 03, 2014, 02:36:31 PM
You can opt to buy one month and not to continue. You do not get any updates that way, and they do several a month.

Ah, ok. I guess in a development sense, everyone who is part of the development team would only have to pay again if an update was released that was needed in order to improve the development of the game. This may be a question for if Irish_Girl gets her own section of the forums, but I'll go ahead and ask it now since one doesn't exist at the moment: if Irish_Girl is developing the APR in one version of Unreal 4, and some of us pay for/download whatever the latest version of Unreal 4 is, will that cause conflicts/problems when we share assets, due to version mismatches?

I'm still learning how the system works.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 03, 2014, 02:48:55 PM
Ah, ok. I guess in a development sense, everyone who is part of the development team would only have to pay again if an update was released that was needed in order to improve the development of the game. This may be a question for if Irish_Girl gets her own section of the forums, but I'll go ahead and ask it now since one doesn't exist at the moment: if Irish_Girl is developing the APR in one version of Unreal 4, and some of us pay for/download whatever the latest version of Unreal 4 is, will that cause conflicts/problems when we share assets, due to version mismatches?

I'm still learning how the system works.
You can download older versions as well. Just need to standardize on a version.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 03:02:03 PM
Hey Downix, I asked a question a few pages back, but as you're in the thread now, I'll ask it again...

Assuming we get the deal inked... Who would actually own the IP rights for CoH?  I know you said there'd be a "holding company", but who will be deciding who runs this?  Is there a group already in mind? Do we know them?  Are they us?

I'm just a little concerned the IP will end up with someone who might not have our or the games interests at heart.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 03, 2014, 03:02:38 PM
Where does one volunteer to help APR or COT?

I don't have MAD art skills, but I have decent ones. 

http://kuraichan.deviantart.com
http://impiousimp.deviantart.com
That looks great to me!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 03, 2014, 03:11:20 PM
Hey Downix, I asked a question a few pages back, but as you're in the thread now, I'll ask it again...

Assuming we get the deal inked... Who would actually own the IP rights for CoH?  I know you said there'd be a "holding company", but who will be deciding who runs this?  Is there a group already in mind? Do we know them?  Are they us?

Not to speak for Downix, but he did answer this question in a couple of ways already- here (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,10284.msg158542.html#msg158542) and here (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,10284.msg158544.html#msg158544). I get the sense that it is still very much up in the air, and he may not have any more specifics.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 03, 2014, 03:12:23 PM
On the subject of inquiry as to joining APR...
That is a subject I'll be dealing with next week. Most of this week is being dedicated to cleaning, packing, and carrying boxes of stuff (All of which I'm sure I'll regret owning as I'm having to carry it up 3 flights of stairs.)
I don't really have the time, or focus to try and organize people at the moment, and it would just end up being a mess I'd have to untangle next week anyways.

Would you prefer to do such "team building" over at the APR website? If so, maybe a comment to that effect and a link could be added to a (as yet theoretical) FAQ here.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 03:13:21 PM
That looks great to me!
I agree. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 03, 2014, 03:13:44 PM
Hey Downix, I asked a question a few pages back, but as you're in the thread now, I'll ask it again...

Assuming we get the deal inked... Who would actually own the IP rights for CoH?  I know you said there'd be a "holding company", but who will be deciding who runs this?  Is there a group already in mind? Do we know them?  Are they us?

I'm just a little concerned the IP will end up with someone who might not have our or the games interests at heart.
That is still one of the negotiating points, ownership percentages as well as control, and a lot of that depends on other conditions. They trade x for y, that kind of thing.

Simply put, as this area is still one of the major negotiating points, could majorly derail if I go into details.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 03:19:10 PM
Not to speak for Downix, but he did answer this question in a couple of ways already- here (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,10284.msg158542.html#msg158542) and here (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,10284.msg158544.html#msg158544). I get the sense that it is still very much up in the air, and he may not have any more specifics.

Ah, I must have missed those when I was skipping... Cheers.

I know who gets my vote in looking after the IP though... Titan Network!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 03:19:52 PM
That is still one of the negotiating points, ownership percentages as well as control, and a lot of that depends on other conditions. They trade x for y, that kind of thing.

Simply put, as this area is still one of the major negotiating points, could majorly derail if I go into details.

Fair enough! Certainly don't want THAT to happen! :O
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Zombie Hustler on September 03, 2014, 03:34:19 PM
Ah, I must have missed those when I was skipping... Cheers.

No worries- it's easy to miss things in a thread this active. I've been paying close attention to info on the holding company, out of personal interest (not just in CoH; I used to work for a literary rights holding company in LA.)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 03:50:06 PM
Ok, so...by special request. New pictures of REALLY unpolished stuff.
Warning: Seriously under construction.
Images will be hidden under spoiler tags, so Agge doesn't smack me with her mod hat.


Truly truly gorgeous, Irish_Girl!  (the maps are looking good, too! ;) )

I do have one request though... Something maybe everyone will agree even if it wouldn't actually be the same as CoH...

Car models that actually look decent, instead of the HIDEOUS things that were in CoH! Ugh! Truly.. Ugh!

Oh, and maybe a bus or two! ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 03:53:49 PM
Truly truly gorgeous, Irish_Girl!  (the maps are looking good, too! ;) )
I do have one request though... Something maybe everyone will agree even if it wouldn't actually be the same as CoH...
Car models that actually look decent, instead of the HIDEOUS things that were in CoH! Ugh! Truly.. Ugh!
Oh, and maybe a bus or two! ;)

Flattery will get you nowhere, son of Harkonnen!
However, I will go out on a limb to confirm decent looking cars, and even busses.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Apogee on September 03, 2014, 03:55:34 PM
How about children when it comes time to populate the city?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 03:56:23 PM
Flattery will get you nowhere, son of Harkonnen!
However, I will go out on a limb to confirm decent looking cars, and even busses.

Oh I dunno... It seemed to have gotten me somewhere... ;)

Awesome news though! Thankies muchly! :p
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 03:58:08 PM
I removed posts pertaining to MWM and Kickstarter issues, including my own.

There is an entire section of the forums for that discussion. This is for the talks on the new deal and the projects spinning from that deal. If I did wrong Agge will slap me down.

If we get another section for APR effort there are some that could be moved such as those pertaining to UR4 licensing and such. We could maybe get the definite information on UR4 and make a sticky since several efforts are using this engine.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 03, 2014, 03:59:07 PM
Truly truly gorgeous, Irish_Girl!  (the maps are looking good, too! ;) )

I do have one request though... Something maybe everyone will agree even if it wouldn't actually be the same as CoH...

Car models that actually look decent, instead of the HIDEOUS things that were in CoH! Ugh! Truly.. Ugh!
+1 

And since we can stand on the blimp...maybe cars that we can jump on and ride too?   :D

Isn't there a topic somewhere about what made CoH "feel" like CoH?    I wonder if some people would not want things like that to change?

I don't mind one bit.   I don't mind if animations, sound FX, and textures change.  I'm mostly wanting the powers to work the same.    As much as the fire imps' stupidity was infuriating at times...keep 'em dumb.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 04:02:11 PM
How about children when it comes time to populate the city?

I think an update could possibly add a wider variety of folks without too much extra effort. You can even buy pre-made artwork from the UR4 market place:

https://www.unrealengine.com/marketplace you can buy everything from characters to textures to buildings and everything in between - I bet even a Moonbase.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 03, 2014, 04:05:47 PM
Isn't there a topic somewhere about what made CoH "feel" like CoH?    I wonder if some people would not want things like that to change?

If it's in a new engine, I think that it's a little silly not to take advantage of said new engine and improve models and textures where appropriate.

I don't mean important stuff like the general look and how the game plays, but inconsequential stuff like the background npc's, textures, stuff like that.. All can be improved to add to the ambience.  Look at the rebuild of Atlas Park that Paragon Studios gave us.  I don't recall -anyone- not loving it when the devs presented it to us. It was -gorgeous-

Sounds can mostly stay as they are, though maybe some can be muted (super speed, targetting drone), more can be added such as a gentle breeze sound or birds in the background.. Maybe kids playing in the park during the day, a faint hum/sizzle from the war walls when you're near them...  Maybe even some weather affects from time to time...

OK, I'm getting carried away now.  My point is though, I don't see any harm in little tweaks to improve then overall game world.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 03, 2014, 04:09:13 PM
OK, I'm getting carried away now.  My point is though, I don't see any harm in little tweaks to improve then overall game world.
Same.   It's actually very exciting to look at the APR pics.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 03, 2014, 04:21:07 PM
If it's in a new engine, I think that it's a little silly not to take advantage of said new engine and improve models and textures where appropriate.

I don't mean important stuff like the general look and how the game plays, but inconsequential stuff like the background npc's, textures, stuff like that.. All can be improved to add to the ambience.  Look at the rebuild of Atlas Park that Paragon Studios gave us.  I don't recall -anyone- not loving it when the devs presented it to us. It was -gorgeous-

Sounds can mostly stay as they are, though maybe some can be muted (super speed, targetting drone), more can be added such as a gentle breeze sound or birds in the background.. Maybe kids playing in the park during the day, a faint hum/sizzle from the war walls when you're near them...  Maybe even some weather affects from time to time...

OK, I'm getting carried away now.  My point is though, I don't see any harm in little tweaks to improve then overall game world.
You can use the existing material for LOD purposes as well you know.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 03, 2014, 04:26:27 PM
Irish_Girl has spoken about the volume and complexity to bringing red-side and gold-side back to CoH 1.5. I want to re-affirm: all the content, blue, red, gold, will be included in the frozen CoHi23 zombie CoH with all the understanding that the negotiations and  game store recreation being accomplished. Or did I miss something in the details?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 03, 2014, 04:32:01 PM
Irish_Girl has spoken about the volume and complexity to bringing red-side and gold-side back to CoH 1.5. I want to re-affirm: all the content, blue, red, gold, will be included in the frozen CoHi23 zombie CoH with all the understanding that the negotiations and  game store recreation being accomplished. Or did I miss something in the details?

To the best of my knowledge, the Issue 23 Legacy CoH would be CoH as it before the shutdown. No more, No less.

Oh the APR-related complexity of things... Gold side would prolly be the easiest side to do. Least amount of content, as well as most everything being fairly new models and textures.
The Rogue Isles however...are a nightmare. A nightmare that will require a lot of scratch built assets, and textures to replace the poor rats nest that was thrown together very quickly.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 03, 2014, 04:45:16 PM
Until they get their hands on it and play around, assume that w/o source code, i23 will be the same as it was when Paragon ran it.

That seems the safe bet to me :)

   I could easily live with i23 :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 03, 2014, 04:47:32 PM
   I could easily live with i23 :)

Out of curiosity, since we will be stuck in i23, did anyone ever get that one badge for killing the tyrant without using any of the lights in the iTrail? I remember people said that badge was only achievable when they unlocked more incanate powers
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Mental Minister on September 03, 2014, 04:59:15 PM
To the best of my knowledge, the Issue 23 Legacy CoH would be CoH as it before the shutdown. No more, No less.

Oh the APR-related complexity of things... Gold side would prolly be the easiest side to do. Least amount of content, as well as most everything being fairly new models and textures.
The Rogue Isles however...are a nightmare. A nightmare that will require a lot of scratch built assets, and textures to replace the poor rats nest that was thrown together very quickly.

That was one of the main reasons I didnt play villains much till gold side was introduced. I loved the Villain Archtypes corruptors being my favorite but by the time I got to St. Martial I found myself logging back to Blue side.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MWRuger on September 03, 2014, 05:18:31 PM
On the subject of inquiry as to joining APR...
That is a subject I'll be dealing with next week. Most of this week is being dedicated to cleaning, packing, and carrying boxes of stuff (All of which I'm sure I'll regret owning as I'm having to carry it up 3 flights of stairs.)
I don't really have the time, or focus to try and organize people at the moment, and it would just end up being a mess I'd have to untangle next week anyways.

As for joining City of Titans...
I'm not involved there, so... don't look at me.

If you like, I could go back through this thread and gather the names of the people who offered and send them to you next week.  If you do, I'll put up a post to recruit and collect names there. Just let me know.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MWRuger on September 03, 2014, 05:22:34 PM
Question:

Does the i23 snapshot include the Test Server?

The reason I ask is that was running i24 at the time of close so people who wanted to could create characters there for i24 goodness. Since there won't be any further development it would essentially be just a server a server with I24 on it.

I was thinking it might soften the blow for people who really wanted to play 124.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: WolfSoul on September 03, 2014, 05:33:02 PM
I so agree with this! It was difficult trying to be in a city that was supposed to be so futuristic technologically but had cars from bad 1970's cop shows.

Though I would just RP that people had "beater" cars because of so many superpowered fights. Who would buy a Rolls Royce or BMW just to watch it trashed between a fire blaster and Clockwork scavangers?


Truly truly gorgeous, Irish_Girl!  (the maps are looking good, too! ;) )

I do have one request though... Something maybe everyone will agree even if it wouldn't actually be the same as CoH...

Car models that actually look decent, instead of the HIDEOUS things that were in CoH! Ugh! Truly.. Ugh!

Oh, and maybe a bus or two! ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 03, 2014, 05:38:15 PM
I so agree with this! It was difficult trying to be in a city that was supposed to be so futuristic technologically but had cars from bad 1970's cop shows.

Though I would just RP that people had "beater" cars because of so many superpowered fights. Who would buy a Rolls Royce or BMW just to watch it trashed between a fire blaster and Clockwork scavangers?
Sales ad:
Those things are so rugged they can get hit by a semi and still stay intact.

Sure, they're uglier than sin, but when you are worried about the next fist-fight between Errmad and Rat-A-Tat, nothing does better than Paragon Motors!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 03, 2014, 05:48:47 PM
I'd have to re-read the UE4 license agreement... But yes, I believe it's $19 per person. You don't have to pay monthly, I don't. You only need to pay initially, and when you need updates from Epic.

PLEASE, PLEASE bear in mind, the updates are hot and heavy at this time and sometimes don't quite play well with others.

If you're going to take this strategy, pick a release and keep all the new folks on it until you move everyone forward.  We're having a  time of it and we'vre a little more used to the release rates. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 06:07:22 PM
Sounds like a winner. If we get it now we can start in learning the system anyways. It will take quite a while to get familiar with it and I may start taking a look at the whole Icon thing and seeing if it can be ported over - with of course the permission of Codewalker. I will send him a PM.

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 03, 2014, 06:27:43 PM
Anyone else notice that the press coverage seems to be focused on the "spiritual successor" side of the deal with next to no mention of CoH i23 getting back online?

Anyway, all these articles are getting enthusiastic comments.  I hope someone over in Korea realizes that doing this deal could greatly help their PR image.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 06:36:14 PM
Anyone else notice that the press coverage seems to be focused on the "spiritual successor" side of the deal with next to no mention of CoH i23 getting back online?

Anyway, all these articles are getting enthusiastic comments.  I hope someone over in Korea realizes that doing this deal could greatly help their PR image.

To be fair at this point there is really nothing decided. The fact they are making an article based on a possibility alone is heartening.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Dal on September 03, 2014, 06:40:38 PM

Thanks to the efforts of many folks in the community, a great deal of the data that drives the game is known and documented (e.g. how much damage does a level-1 energy bolt do?  How much damage is added by one damage enhancement, etc.).  Because so much of this is known, re-implementing those numbers into a new engine is actually one of the smaller tasks ahead of the developers.


That's great! Thank goodness CoH offered us all of the numbers. :) And there's still City of Data. http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: darkgob on September 03, 2014, 06:43:06 PM
guys can you please wait on bringing back CoH until I finish grad school

I know it's gonna be like a year and a half but it would really be super-helpful and great if I didn't have to choose between my first MMO love and my professional future
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Pherdnut on September 03, 2014, 06:44:02 PM
Well, I'm sure I'm one of many spamming offers to help but I'm a web UI dev/polyglot/generalist with about 7 years of experience and this UE4 web technology UI plugin interests me a lot:

http://coherent-labs.com/ue4/

I plan on learning my way around it this weekend just as a point of interest but I'd be delighted by any opportunity to help bring back COH in one form or another. I've been meaning to pick up some C/C++ skills for a while now for the Node binding utility and UE4 looks like a fun way to do it. R/L name is Erik Reppen. Feel free to look me up on Stack/Linked In.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 03, 2014, 06:47:06 PM
guys can you please wait on bringing back CoH until I finish grad school

I know it's gonna be like a year and a half but it would really be super-helpful and great if I didn't have to choose between my first MMO love and my professional future

Sorry bud...it's several thousand to 1.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Pherdnut on September 03, 2014, 06:53:14 PM
Question I keep forgetting to ask:

What's informing their reluctance to release source code for a code base that's been around this long? Is there a liability issue or something?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 03, 2014, 06:54:54 PM
guys can you please wait on bringing back CoH until I finish grad school

I know it's gonna be like a year and a half but it would really be super-helpful and great if I didn't have to choose between my first MMO love and my professional future

Focus on your future bro. When the deal is done (I didn't say if, I said when. Not sure if that is over confidence of me in my happy place) this game will be waiting for you to be enjoyed :p
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Taliseian on September 03, 2014, 06:55:16 PM
Content Creation Question -

I'm no artist - can barely draw a straight line.  But I've been delving more into fiction writing over the past few years and plan to participate in NaNoWriMo this year with a CoH based short story about one of my Heroes.

If I wanted to get involved in the writing/storyline/questing part, what would be a good way to get started?  Should I start delving into UE4 stuff as well?

Thanks in advance...


T
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: powergridpete on September 03, 2014, 07:02:58 PM
My excitement is tempered with the new development, but I am completely stoked for I23 CoH server.  Maybe it is because the I23 CoH server is the most likely to be online first. 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 07:04:23 PM
Question I keep forgetting to ask:

What's informing their reluctance to release source code for a code base that's been around this long? Is there a liability issue or something?

There is a possibility that this source or part may be in other Cryptic engines and may have backdoors to the system. NCSoft would have to explain any other reason and they aren't doing so yet.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: General Sherman on September 03, 2014, 07:07:05 PM
There is a possibility that this source or part may be in other Cryptic engines and may have backdoors to the system. NCSoft would have to explain any other reason and they aren't doing so yet.

And nobody wants someone entering their backdoor uninvited :o
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MWRuger on September 03, 2014, 07:19:06 PM
Content Creation Question -

I'm no artist - can barely draw a straight line.  But I've been delving more into fiction writing over the past few years and plan to participate in NaNoWriMo this year with a CoH based short story about one of my Heroes.

If I wanted to get involved in the writing/storyline/questing part, what would be a good way to get started?  Should I start delving into UE4 stuff as well?

Thanks in advance...


T

Not speaking for Irish Girl

But I think new content creation is a long ways off. First you need to get the existing content ported for Hero side, then red side and gold side. That is a lot of work to do before you start on new content.

Just my suspicion but APR is going to use CoT's engine (which isn't finished yet) and will need to be modded and tinkered with to make it like CoH. That can't start until MWM is done with most of it. In the meantime, recreating the City, Rouge Isles and Pretoria in UE4 is a pretty big task in itself.

At some point though APR will have to recreate the missions and such and that will sorta be content creation but mostly copy and paste work or maybe just a lot of typing. Hopefully I23 will be running and some of it can come from there and certainly side-by-side comparisons can be done to insure that it is as close as possible.

But from her posts I think that it will be a week or two before she can start in earnest because of her move.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: dwturducken on September 03, 2014, 07:32:29 PM
And nobody wants someone entering their backdoor uninvited :o

"Donut, you can ruin anything!"

;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: General Sherman on September 03, 2014, 08:02:28 PM
"Donut, you can ruin anything!"

;)

Sorry, momentary lapse of sanity.

But nice RvB reference ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 03, 2014, 08:07:17 PM
Sorry, momentary lapse of sanity.

But nice RvB reference ;D

Thought that to, didn't comment LOL.  I was to busy laughing.  Shame they killed him off :(.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Felderburg on September 03, 2014, 08:08:32 PM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Wammo on September 03, 2014, 08:33:56 PM
Just a thought that came to my mind...

I wonder what the real population will be upon relaunch. I know this is again speculation but have any of you taken a moment to consider how many or few of us there are who want to play again? I think this really should be taken into account when considering how many servers to launch.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 03, 2014, 08:42:21 PM
I look at City of Titans, Valiance Online, and  Heroes and Villains being like the Chinese, the Mexican, and the Italian restaurants that setup in the same area because not everyone wants chinese (or mexican or italian) every time, but its all good food and customers know the neighborhood to get their options. It can't be about all of one and none of the others.

I personally know of people playing World of Warcraft, Rift, and League of Legends, at different times, of course but all in the same week.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 03, 2014, 08:47:21 PM
I am having friends from coh that I havent talked to in a couple of years or more contact me. there are a LOT of people watching this.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 03, 2014, 09:00:00 PM
I am having friends from coh that I havent talked to in a couple of years or more contact me. there are a LOT of people watching this.
We are getting the band back together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOHq5WbQ8k
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Fable on September 03, 2014, 09:11:13 PM
Just a thought that came to my mind...

I wonder what the real population will be upon relaunch. I know this is again speculation but have any of you taken a moment to consider how many or few of us there are who want to play again? I think this really should be taken into account when considering how many servers to launch.

I think you're forgetting the amount of new comers. I was surprised by a lot of the comments on the 3 articles. There were a lot of "I had no idea this game had this kind of community, I think I'll check it out if it comes back" kind of comments. It may not be as popular or it could be more popular because the attention it didn't previously have. I feel like it could go either way. Look at the CoT kickstarter, there's obviously a lot of interest in this type of game. Just look at steams numbers on CO, I think we're all good.

Plus, most of us are old and have disposable income ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: DeathSentry on September 03, 2014, 09:14:33 PM
Given that its binary and not source code; it appears that we get the benefit of licensing and using coh but will definitely depend on the successors to take it forward
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 03, 2014, 09:15:41 PM
Anyone else notice that the press coverage seems to be focused on the "spiritual successor" side of the deal with next to no mention of CoH i23 getting back online?

Anyway, all these articles are getting enthusiastic comments.  I hope someone over in Korea realizes that doing this deal could greatly help their PR image.

  I have to admit,my interest is totally about coh i23 etc., getting back online.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 03, 2014, 09:19:06 PM
Out of curiosity, since we will be stuck in i23, did anyone ever get that one badge for killing the tyrant without using any of the lights in the iTrail? I remember people said that badge was only achievable when they unlocked more incanate powers

  Not I :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 03, 2014, 09:22:58 PM
We are getting the band back together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOHq5WbQ8k


  WOOT!  :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blondeshell on September 03, 2014, 09:31:32 PM
Out of curiosity, since we will be stuck in i23, did anyone ever get that one badge for killing the tyrant without using any of the lights in the iTrail? I remember people said that badge was only achievable when they unlocked more incanate powers

That was the The Really Hard Way Badge (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/The_Really_Hard_Way_Badge), and at least 154 characters were verified to have earned it (http://cit.cohtitan.com/badges/list/Accolade/all/). In order to participate in the Magisterium Trial (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Magisterium_Trial), you had to have unlocked your Lore and Destiny slots, but not Hybrid.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Xaphan on September 03, 2014, 09:35:27 PM
Out of curiosity, since we will be stuck in i23, did anyone ever get that one badge for killing the tyrant without using any of the lights in the iTrail? I remember people said that badge was only achievable when they unlocked more incanate powers
I got that on 2 or 3 of my characters (2 I'm sure of, the third I can't remember for sure). The group I was with was among the first to get it, but not the very first.
It was hard, but not impossible. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blondeshell on September 03, 2014, 09:43:06 PM
I'm curious though, apologies if this was asked already, but what of costume codes and booster packs? If the game comes back, will you even be able to generate and sell/give out codes? Otherwise, wouldn't stuff like Justice and Sinister costume sets, Pocket D Tiki VIP, Arachnos Helmets and the like be gone forever?

I'm not part of any of these teams, but I'll give some thoughts on this since no one else has.

The only costume parts that should not be accessible are those that were released after I23 because everything else would be in the I23 pigg files. I'm guessing that the I24 pigg files wouldn't be valid, even though they're still downloadable, because the server software would be hard-coded to expect the I23 versions. But all other art assets would still exist in the files.

However, access to the costume pieces and powers was account-based before, so I think future access would have to be determined by how the new authentication server was set up and the flags that would indicate who could use what. All of that would be decided by the people who are in charge of actually running the maintenance servers, though.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 03, 2014, 09:46:34 PM
There is a possibility that this source or part may be in other Cryptic engines and may have backdoors to the system. NCSoft would have to explain any other reason and they aren't doing so yet.
Correct me if my memory is faulty.

Wasn't there some discussion about the difficulty in reverse engineering the source code because it was supposedly invented especially for CoH and was not exactly well put together?

If it was then used for other games as well, that sounds like a big mess that would not be good news for the other games.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 03, 2014, 09:49:16 PM
3. Speaking of successors, the pending "officialness" of the successors does give me concern about splitting the player base. Obviously people will play different games based on their preferences, but I can't help but wonder if the successors would want to "team up" with pricing? E.g. give a special reduced sub price to all three games (rather than $15 a month each, $30 total for all three). Something like that.
That is a unique sounding idea.   There does seem to be some spirit of "we are in this together" among the different groups (which is awesome).  And discounts do result in more net income at times. (Discount Tuesdays at theaters for instance)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 03, 2014, 09:49:23 PM

 apologies to the board-didn't mean for a few of my posts to enter here all back-to-back.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 03, 2014, 10:12:37 PM
We are getting the band back together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOHq5WbQ8k

Thank you for that clip. The first video next to it was "Briefcase full of Blues". For those who don't know, it was an album released about the same time. Featuring the actual Blue brothers singing. I'm listening to it now. It's awesome.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 03, 2014, 10:27:33 PM
Regarding population numbers, here's my anecdotal evidence.

Since the news of the hail mary effort I've talked with 5 former CoH players and all have said they would return to the game.  I've told other gaming friends who never played about the possibility of a CoH return; 7 of those folks are interested.  So thats 12 people who on just hearing about CoH redux are already potential player/buyers. 

Here's the key point.  They all asked "how much."  The consensus was that they want to return or try the game for the first time, but no one wanted to pay a premium.  There are die hards who have stated loud and clear that they would pay anything to get CoH back.  Thats all well and good but the games return would be best served by pricing itself attractively to bring in on-the-fence returnees and brand new players. 

Personally I'd be willing to pay $10-$15 on a CoH redux Steam purchase that unlocks a chunk of costume elements and archetypes, and then a monthly sub of under $10.  Some kind of free account option would serve to get new people to try the game.  I missed to chance to play CoH when it went free to play so Im not too sure what the options were. 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 10:34:42 PM
I missed to chance to play CoH when it went free to play so Im not too sure what the options were. 

One thing that I admit has upset me a bit has been the hostility towards F2P. The F2P conversion did not kill the game. Everyone at Paragon said it was the best thing they ever did for the game financially. The people who don't pay may not financially boost up the game while costing resources...

But if I can't play with my fiancee when the game comes back, I'm not going to be as happy. We're both pretty tight, and while I could try to cover both of us for some things, odds are at least one of my friends are going to want to not pay if there's that option. It won't make the game money, but it will make me more invested, they'll be likely to buy things and sub when they can, etc. Free players make the game better by providing an active player base and as such should be treated well!

So I'd really hope that any team would want to be in the more-inclusive brand of F2P than not. At first you couldn't even join a super group... and that would stop 9/10ths of the free people from playing. I'm okay with no ticket rewards from AE, but no rewards at all? Since no one will have bought going rogue if we dont get the account data, I'd say the alignment system being F2P really hurts no one. It just lets f2P players explore more content, encourage more people to play, etc. :)

If you're a person who can pay, and can pay more than just a sub fee, dont be angry at free players. Think of it as your chance to give to the community by supporting their play experience, just as they support yours :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Last Known Hero on September 03, 2014, 10:37:35 PM
That was the The Really Hard Way Badge (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/The_Really_Hard_Way_Badge), and at least 154 characters were verified to have earned it (http://cit.cohtitan.com/badges/list/Accolade/all/). In order to participate in the Magisterium Trial (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Magisterium_Trial), you had to have unlocked your Lore and Destiny slots, but not Hybrid.

My brother and Shifter were one of those actually :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 03, 2014, 10:42:25 PM
There is a possibility that this source or part may be in other Cryptic engines and may have backdoors to the system. NCSoft would have to explain any other reason and they aren't doing so yet.
Lock that stuff down... make us sign our field trip wavers saying we cant sue you and you cant sue us. Secondly if Star Trek Online(cryptic) or Lineage 2(NCsoft) is using a "Backdoor" from an archaic game such as CoH they REALLY almost deserve whatever would happen... that's like saying you cant use Windows 95 because it is a massive security threat to Windows 9 that isn't even out yet. Downright lazy if they left the same "backdoors" in those games.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 03, 2014, 10:45:16 PM
  I have to admit,my interest is totally about coh i23 etc., getting back online.
That and I am more concerned about CoH 1.5/2. I am grateful for the spiritual successors but truthfully I could care less. They aren't City of Heroes and Never will be no matter how hard they try.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 10:46:09 PM
Lock that stuff down... make us sign our field trip wavers saying we cant sue you and you cant sue us.

From a business standpoint this would be an unacceptable liability.

It's like selling someone a keyring, and making them pinkie swear not to ever use one of the keys. You just don't do it.

We'll just have to accept what they're willing to offer - and hey, I'm giving NCSoft respect for even ATTEMPTING this. Do you remember how much over the top racism alone was spewed their way amidst the shutdown, nevermind some of the other forms of nastiness? Being willing to even look at CoH again in more than a "yes, it existed, cool" sort of way is worthy of a little cheer I think :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 03, 2014, 10:47:46 PM
Lock that stuff down... make us sign our field trip wavers saying we cant sue you and you cant sue us. Secondly if Star Trek Online(cryptic) or Lineage 2(NCsoft) is using a "Backdoor" from an archaic game such as CoH they REALLY almost deserve whatever would happen... that's like saying you cant use Windows 95 because it is a massive security threat to Windows 9 that isn't even out yet. Downright lazy if they left the same "backdoors" in those games.
Ironwolf is not a coder, so he may not know the right terminology.

I think the better phrase may be "sharing code libraries." Things like internal user authentication libraries - things which it would make sense to share between multiple games.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 03, 2014, 10:48:36 PM
That and I am more concerned about CoH 1.5/2. I am grateful for the spiritual successors but truthfully I could care less. They aren't City of Heroes and Never will be no matter how hard they try.
Nor should they be.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Remaugen on September 03, 2014, 11:00:11 PM
It's pretty exciting to witness all of this!


We're almost there!   ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: dwturducken on September 03, 2014, 11:09:31 PM
Thought that to, didn't comment LOL.  I was to busy laughing.  Shame they killed him off :(.

Dude, Donut is the Kenny of BvR ("Saying it the other way sounds stupid."). Check out season 12. He came back about half a dozen episodes ago. :D

But, to the "getting our stuff back" debate, I offer this: I petered out on GW well before GW2 came out, so I don't know if characters transfer, but, given the roadmap that downix laid out in the OP, I have no problem throwing money at CoH: Resurgence until one of the forthcoming projects is in release form. I won't even bother with recreating any of my favorite toons until I've settled into whichever of the new games feels the most like "home." Until then, I look forward to seeing you all back in Atlas Park, whichever version we all land in!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 11:11:00 PM
Until then, I look forward to seeing you all back in Atlas Park, whichever version we all land in!

here here! :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 03, 2014, 11:17:41 PM
From a business standpoint this would be an unacceptable liability.

It's like selling someone a keyring, and making them pinkie swear not to ever use one of the keys. You just don't do it.

We'll just have to accept what they're willing to offer - and hey, I'm giving NCSoft respect for even ATTEMPTING this. Do you remember how much over the top racism alone was spewed their way amidst the shutdown, nevermind some of the other forms of nastiness? Being willing to even look at CoH again in more than a "yes, it existed, cool" sort of way is worthy of a little cheer I think :)

I could also point out that creating a backdoor is perhaps the second to last step when an actual hacker is launching an attack on someone.  You leave a backdoor open and then turn around and fix the exploit you used.  One way it's done anyways.  If thats the kind of backdoor you guys are speaking of.  I didn't reply right away as I wasn't sure if Iron Wolf was using the kind of back door I was thinking of or some other back door.  But it's generally bad practice to have one, I say close it right away.  An admin or moderator/gm wouldn't need one anyways with proper design.  Most companies are smart enough not to have one, even more-so since security through obscurityis not security.  Just an old saying.  (No, I am not a hacker or info sec person, I did take classes in that, but I didn't take them for that reason, took them to reinforce my networking knowledge in hopes to get a job easier, didn't work at all).

And I remember alot of the nasty things people said.  Honestly felt that, well, alot of people really revealed themselves to be complete jerks during the shutdown, it kind of revealed who the real friends were in a sense.  I think only a few friends of mine I made in CoX are still friends today, a few here and there turned out to be complete $#%#$^$.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: naztmann on September 03, 2014, 11:17:58 PM
So, I'm a bit of a lurker around here, but I had to jump on to add my thanks to what is the massive collection of thanks from the CoX community and these forums. If this went through it would be amazing, but just to hear that you have put all of this time and effort into this is awesome enough as it is. It really shows how much you care about this community both on these forums as well as people who haven't experienced the CoX games or maybe aren't quite so vocal on here. So from anyone who was a huge fan back may be too much of a lurker to get a chance to say it:

Thank you for all the work you've been doing.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: DarkCurrent on September 03, 2014, 11:19:40 PM
If player accounts are gone, how will premium purchases that were only available from the paragon store (e.g. Nature Affinity) be available on an I23 relaunch?

And would the paragon store even be available in any such relaunch?  As I understood, the store was a separate server / entity.  Would it be part of CoH IP?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 03, 2014, 11:21:58 PM
Speaking of security, another thing they may want to look into should they get the game, update the password system for it.  Not allowing the use of special characters is a very very big problem, as even just adding any of @#$%! for example could greatly increase the passwords strength, and reduce the length one has to make a password to really make it secure.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ukaserex on September 03, 2014, 11:25:27 PM
Out of curiosity, since we will be stuck in i23, did anyone ever get that one badge for killing the tyrant without using any of the lights in the iTrail? I remember people said that badge was only achievable when they unlocked more incanate powers

The Magisterium iTrial was what I would call "Gated Content". In order to participate, not only did you have to be VIP (only subscribers could do incarnate stuff, if I recall correctly) but you had to have Lore and Destiny unlocked. This iTrial was for me, one of the most incredible experiences. It took a truly special league of players to be able to take Cole down without using the lights. For some leagues, even with the lights, he was tough enough, lol.

Without lights, it pretty much needed to be an almost choreographed chaos so that players could be grouped for buffs, but scatter ASAP when that lightning blast was about to pop. I got this badge on three different characters on two different servers and other than facing the Avatar of Hamidon with insufficient Clarions, I can't think of a more challenging finale. In all honesty, I don't think a league without wise incarnate choices will do well, lights or not. Kudos to @Amygdala of Champion and @Xtreme Raze on Liberty for leading those efforts. ( I think @Lady Clara and @Placta may have also led successful runs on Champion, but I can't recall - such a tightnit community of both servers, if one was there, the others usually were as well.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: TonyV on September 03, 2014, 11:28:23 PM
A new website or forum here is going to definitely be needed. A list of volunteers and skills - all the good stuff that needs to be done.

Just as a side note, I'd rather not set up Atlas Park Revival forums here.

That's not to be mean, but what I'm afraid of is splitting up the dissemination of information across multiple sites.  I think that all Atlas Park Revival stuff needs to be consolidated on the Atlas Park Revival site.  Not that I mind people asking questions or congregating here or anything, but I don't want anyone to confuse the Titan Network with the official Atlas Park Revival site.  Information here is secondhand, while information there is firsthand.

In fact, I'm in the process of telling the other projects (City of Titans and Heroes and Villains) that I'm going to be retiring their forums here, since both have their own web sites now up and running and have for a long time.  We'll still have a general "Plan Z" discussion forum, and I don't mind folks making posts there to basically say, "Hey, look at what's going on over at our official site!", but to be honest, it's better for them this way in that they can go ahead and get their own user base created and set up.  The only reason we really had their forums here to start with was as kind of a stopgap measure until they got their own sites up and running.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ukaserex on September 03, 2014, 11:29:33 PM
guys can you please wait on bringing back CoH until I finish grad school

I know it's gonna be like a year and a half but it would really be super-helpful and great if I didn't have to choose between my first MMO love and my professional future

I wish you great success in grad school! But, having been through it, I know that you can find an hour here and there to play - you'd just have to read faster with the same comprehension. Practice now!

And remember, on your thesis: Pick a topic the professors know next to nothing about. That way, you'll know more than everyone else in the room. They will likely be too busy to read up on the topic as much as you will have. You'll be the only expert in the room.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 03, 2014, 11:35:19 PM
The Magisterium iTrial was what I would call "Gated Content". In order to participate, not only did you have to be VIP (only subscribers could do incarnate stuff, if I recall correctly) but you had to have Lore and Destiny unlocked. This iTrial was for me, one of the most incredible experiences. It took a truly special league of players to be able to take Cole down without using the lights. For some leagues, even with the lights, he was tough enough, lol.

Without lights, it pretty much needed to be an almost choreographed chaos so that players could be grouped for buffs, but scatter ASAP when that lightning blast was about to pop. I got this badge on three different characters on two different servers and other than facing the Avatar of Hamidon with insufficient Clarions, I can't think of a more challenging finale. In all honesty, I don't think a league without wise incarnate choices will do well, lights or not. Kudos to @Amygdala of Champion and @Xtreme Raze on Liberty for leading those efforts. ( I think @Lady Clara and @Placta may have also led successful runs on Champion, but I can't recall - such a tightnit community of both servers, if one was there, the others usually were as well.

The Magisterium ITrial was by far my favorite, simply cause it was a conclusion of the praetorian war.  And it didn't end in a perfect heroic way either.  The whole imperial city was destroyed and the chaos Praetoria was left in meant it was very vulnerable to it's hamidon.  A very unfortunate end to the war, in a way though, it seemed like the war ended that way as a kind of statement that war is on so many levels wrong, and really is a big last resort.  Praetoria attacked primal earth, forcing primal earth to respond to it and generally forcing primal earth to invade since praetoria wasn't going to stop attacking.

So the praetorian hamidon was left with a very exposed and crippled humanity that was rather badly mislead into a war by it's leader who saw no other option.  I cannot say things would be good had the praetorians won, in fact I'd say the world would have been screwed.  But it was either praetoria lost or both sides lost.

It's a shame it ended that way, but I liked the Magisterium trial because of that.  You kind of saw the ultimate consequences of the war(they even say the hamidon is on the way to finish the city off at the end if I recall).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cobra Man on September 03, 2014, 11:37:35 PM
Ok, so...by special request. New pictures of REALLY unpolished stuff.
Warning: Seriously under construction.
Images will be hidden under spoiler tags, so Agge doesn't smack me with her mod hat.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10644522_329455817214641_6698756546108573220_o.jpg)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/10543567_329455773881312_5889642776631709311_o.jpg)
The plaza of Steel Canyon's University.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10648348_329455763881313_9190186255596272964_o.jpg)
The first shot of Independence Port.
In this picture, you might be able to see the hintings of one of my favorite changes that I'm making.
If you're flying along, and you look out past the War Walls...You can see the rest of Paragon City in the distance.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/10580708_329455787214644_2155914609070580591_o.jpg)
Another shot of I.P. a tad closer to the bridge.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10669372_329455810547975_2418838020023202468_o.jpg)
I have no idea where this is. I think it's from a different game. /sarcasm

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10669040_329455807214642_4537574222062157673_o.jpg)
This picture...is Paragon City from above. It should have the War Walls for just about all of the cities zones. Only Atlas Park, Independance Port, and Founders Falls have any of the zone detail showing in this image however.

Thanks for that :)

I'm now looking forward to the revamped CoH. It just struck me that it just wont be the the buildings and infrastructure that gets redone. NPC's, mobs  .. GM's will also be redone.

I wonder  ... are there plans to include speech in the revamp?

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 03, 2014, 11:37:42 PM
Ironwolf is not a coder, so he may not know the right terminology.

I think the better phrase may be "sharing code libraries." Things like internal user authentication libraries - things which it would make sense to share between multiple games.
That makes more sense. I wish there was a cure for that stuff I am assuming they/we are having issues isolating that stuff?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 03, 2014, 11:41:25 PM
We'll still have a general "Plan Z" discussion forum, and I don't mind folks making posts there to basically say, "Hey, look at what's going on over at our official site!", but to be honest, it's better for them this way in that they can go ahead and get their own user base created and set up.

I agree with all of your post, Tony, but wanted to single this aspect out as awesome. The little updates and discussions for all of the successor projects are neat and useful here, but there really are benefits to the in depth communication being elsewhere :)

The Magisterium ITrial was by far my favorite, simply cause it was a conclusion of the praetorian war. 

I'm one of the few people who was really disappointed by the outcome of "Praetorian Fatigue." I'll agree Primal Earth needed some love, but it felt a very unsatisfying way to end things. I get that their Hamidon is uber in a million ways, but evacuating what few people we could and leaving a world to be overrun just made me feel really disappointed.

If anyone on a successor wants to make my day, slipping in a hint about an alternate timeline where valiant heroes refused to gave up and fought the Hamidon back as a team would win my heart, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more.

But that said, gameplaywise? SO FUN. I only got to try badging it once or twice, but it felt like all of the best parts of the other trials without any of the filler. Sure, some filler to start (good for iXP though!) then bam three bosses, one boss, huge boss.

Tanking Tyrant was suuuch an amazing feeling. There really was nothing else like it :)

I wonder  ... are there plans to include speech in the revamp?

I may be the one person who feels this way, but I prefer it when games don't have speech, so all of the conversation uses my character's actual name.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 03, 2014, 11:42:04 PM
I'm still trying to find time to just start writing again.  I was writing for VO occasionally, had three parts on a lore page for a character of mine.  I really should visit on some other character of mine here perhaps.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: BadWolf on September 03, 2014, 11:45:51 PM
The Magisterium iTrial was what I would call "Gated Content". In order to participate, not only did you have to be VIP (only subscribers could do incarnate stuff, if I recall correctly) but you had to have Lore and Destiny unlocked. This iTrial was for me, one of the most incredible experiences. It took a truly special league of players to be able to take Cole down without using the lights. For some leagues, even with the lights, he was tough enough, lol.

Wait, wait, wait--you were supposed to finish that thing? I thought that you just started the trial, fought the first two hundred fifty or so guys, and then quit.

Huh. Learn something new every day.

 :) ;) :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Blondeshell on September 03, 2014, 11:47:48 PM
...(they even say the hamidon is on the way to finish the city off at the end if I recall).

Quote
Upon defeat of Tyrant: (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Magisterium_Trial#Phase_4)

You've ruined everything! You have no comprehension of what you've unleashed on this world... this multiverse!

I had the power to save us all... to fight off the storm on the horizon...

We are undone...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 03, 2014, 11:51:27 PM


Well, in war, who's the good guy?  It's usually just whatever side you were on by default, not who you wanted to fight with but who you were forced to fight for.  To him, we were the bad guys, to primal earth we were the good guys :/.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 04, 2014, 12:04:13 AM
I'd love to know what Matt Miller and some of the former Paragon folks think of all this.  Positrons twitter is silent on the matter.

I do notice that his Twitter self-describes his work not as a Cryptic team member working on STO but as the Ex-Lead Designer of City of Heroes.   :D  So I imagine his heart is with this effort, deep inside anyway.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 04, 2014, 12:05:10 AM
That makes more sense. I wish there was a cure for that stuff I am assuming they/we are having issues isolating that stuff?
If they were isolated, they would be removed - from CoH. This would then deliver less than a game server, and something which was completely unplayable.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 04, 2014, 12:15:03 AM
I wish you great success in grad school! But, having been through it, I know that you can find an hour here and there to play - you'd just have to read faster with the same comprehension. Practice now!

And remember, on your thesis: Pick a topic the professors know next to nothing about. That way, you'll know more than everyone else in the room. They will likely be too busy to read up on the topic as much as you will have. You'll be the only expert in the room.

I'm thinking a thesis on CoHI23 would work out well for you. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 12:16:54 AM
Sales ad:
Those things are so rugged they can get hit by a semi and still stay intact.

Sure, they're uglier than sin, but when you are worried about the next fist-fight between Errmad and Rat-A-Tat, nothing does better than Paragon Motors!

Paragon Motors: Awful car, but cheap to insure!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: darkgob on September 04, 2014, 12:19:28 AM
I'm thinking a thesis on CoHI23 would work out well for you. :)
Would have to tie it into Medical Informatics.  Maybe something about peds patients?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Pherdnut on September 04, 2014, 12:21:18 AM
I agree with all of your post, Tony, but wanted to single this aspect out as awesome. The little updates and discussions for all of the successor projects are neat and useful here, but there really are benefits to the in depth communication being elsewhere :)

I'm one of the few people who was really disappointed by the outcome of "Praetorian Fatigue." I'll agree Primal Earth needed some love, but it felt a very unsatisfying way to end things. I get that their Hamidon is uber in a million ways, but evacuating what few people we could and leaving a world to be overrun just made me feel really disappointed.

If anyone on a successor wants to make my day, slipping in a hint about an alternate timeline where valiant heroes refused to gave up and fought the Hamidon back as a team would win my heart, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more.

But that said, gameplaywise? SO FUN. I only got to try badging it once or twice, but it felt like all of the best parts of the other trials without any of the filler. Sure, some filler to start (good for iXP though!) then bam three bosses, one boss, huge boss.

Tanking Tyrant was suuuch an amazing feeling. There really was nothing else like it :)

I may be the one person who feels this way, but I prefer it when games don't have speech, so all of the conversation uses my character's actual name.

Extensive voiceover is probably not a good idea anyway. It's expensive, time-consuming, and much harder to edit. I also never liked hearing somebody else's idea of a voice for my Avatar. It never quite fits.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Rexidus on September 04, 2014, 12:21:23 AM
Hello there everyone.  I was a long time City of Heroes player and fan dating from the pre-archetype era before release (ie 1999-2000 ish).  I backed City of Titans as much as I could and continue to be eagerly awaiting the release of that.

So I saw this news today and had to come out to share my joy and wish you guys luck.  I truly want you guys to succeed.  So keep at it guys.  This is a worthy endeavor. :)


Ryoku- aka Golden-Eagle of Pinnacle; former leader of the Alliance of Champions and former prominent member of the Pinnacle RP Congress.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Brigadine on September 04, 2014, 12:25:30 AM
If they were isolated, they would be removed - from CoH. This would then deliver less than a game server, and something which was completely unplayable.
At least we could write our own substitute in its place and get the source code(if this is NCsofts only concern) then keep going with the original game code.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 04, 2014, 12:26:10 AM
Would have to tie it into Medical Informatics.  Maybe something about peds patients?

Dude! Medical Informatics, go on with your bad self. Is this Health records or research or CDC kind of related info grouping?

Erm, I mean peds patients. lmao. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Xaphan on September 04, 2014, 12:30:23 AM
Extensive voiceover is probably not a good idea anyway. It's expensive, time-consuming, and much harder to edit. I also never liked hearing somebody else's idea of a voice for my Avatar. It never quite fits.
It also adds an other layer of things that need to be done when making new missions, which means that content creation would take longer. When the project eventually finishes re-creating old content and gets onto the creation of new content, it also makes it harder to change things after lines have been recorded.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 04, 2014, 12:31:18 AM
If it's in a new engine, I think that it's a little silly not to take advantage of said new engine and improve models and textures where appropriate.

I don't mean important stuff like the general look and how the game plays, but inconsequential stuff like the background npc's, textures, stuff like that.. All can be improved to add to the ambience.  Look at the rebuild of Atlas Park that Paragon Studios gave us.  I don't recall -anyone- not loving it when the devs presented it to us. It was -gorgeous-

Sounds can mostly stay as they are, though maybe some can be muted (super speed, targetting drone), more can be added such as a gentle breeze sound or birds in the background.. Maybe kids playing in the park during the day, a faint hum/sizzle from the war walls when you're near them...  Maybe even some weather affects from time to time...

OK, I'm getting carried away now.  My point is though, I don't see any harm in little tweaks to improve then overall game world.

Why don't you download Unreal 4 and join the efforts?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Pherdnut on September 04, 2014, 12:31:50 AM
At least we could write our own substitute in its place and get the source code(if this is NCsofts only concern) then keep going with the original game code.

I suspect the auth-layer for COH which I gather was really several apps you communicated with that were running at once is not quite as conveniently modular as that. Even if it was, they probably wouldn't want to risk missing something. It's a bummer though. Getting portions of the source would got a long way.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 12:33:21 AM
PLEASE, PLEASE bear in mind, the updates are hot and heavy at this time and sometimes don't quite play well with others.

If you're going to take this strategy, pick a release and keep all the new folks on it until you move everyone forward.  We're having a  time of it and we'vre a little more used to the release rates. :)

At the moment I'm stable on 4.0.2. Aside from content, I haven't had a real reason to update past that.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shard on September 04, 2014, 12:37:39 AM
At the moment I'm stable on 4.0.2. Aside from content, I haven't had a real reason to update past that.

Ack. You've missed a LOT of improvements. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 12:54:25 AM
Extensive voiceover is probably not a good idea anyway. It's expensive, time-consuming, and much harder to edit. I also never liked hearing somebody else's idea of a voice for my Avatar. It never quite fits.

Personally... While Voices are neat. I'm against using extensive voice work in an MMO. It's time consuming, it can be expensive, and it drastically limits your ability to modify content, or push new content.
A player will almost never feel quite right having some random voice coming from their character, which would be immersion shattering in a game like City of Heroes.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cobra Man on September 04, 2014, 01:02:22 AM
Personally... While Voices are neat. I'm against using extensive voice work in an MMO. It's time consuming, it can be expensive, and it drastically limits your ability to modify content, or push new content.
A player will almost never feel quite right having some random voice coming from their character, which would be immersion shattering in a game like City of Heroes.

I was actually meaning NPC's, signature characters, AV's etc - everything except our own characters.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: opprime2828 on September 04, 2014, 01:21:07 AM
The Secret World has done an amazing job utilizing voice work into an MMO.  Your character never speaks. Cutscenes are always observing conversations between NPCs or from an NPC to you, not you speaking back. 
 
It does bring the world to life in a way that MMOs could use to attract the younger generation of players. That being said, it should be used sparingly, and a mix of voice and text is the best approach, in my opinion.
 
So for example:
 
NPC 1 (V.O.): "So if the Trolls aren't put down fast, Superadine is going to flood the streets. I don't even want to imagine what Skyway City will look like after that happens. Are you in?"
 
Your character:  select one of the following text box responses
   [I'm in. Let's move.]
 X[I agree, but I have something I have to first.  I'll be back, I promise]
   [I'm sorry, but this mission isn't for me. Good luck and godspeed.]
x- represents your selection
 
NPC 1: (V.O.) "OK, but please don't take too long. Those shipments could start hitting the streets any time now."


 
 
Also, @Irish Girl:  You are amazing. That work you've done is incredible.  Not only does it REALLY feel like CoH, it looks even better! I'll be in touch to help once you settle on a way to contact you and begin organizing.  I'll be bringing the CS6 suite and my own UE4 to the cause. :-)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Luna Eclypse on September 04, 2014, 01:41:39 AM
Took me a couple days to really process everything that was just revealed here but, oh goodness... this fills me with so much excitement and optimism.  ;D

That's about all I can say, the potential positive outcome to all of this is so monumental. I'm mostly speechless.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hejtmane on September 04, 2014, 01:45:16 AM
Speaking of security, another thing they may want to look into should they get the game, update the password system for it.  Not allowing the use of special characters is a very very big problem, as even just adding any of @#$%! for example could greatly increase the passwords strength, and reduce the length one has to make a password to really make it secure.

That is a myth pass phrases are the real security the special characters makes it way easier to hack because of the way computer algorithms work it is all math and computers are really good at math

This explains it is simple terms

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=imgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fpassword_strength.png)

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 04, 2014, 01:53:45 AM
Paragon Motors: Awful car, but cheap to insure!

Paragon Motors, trusted to be thrown by grav control since 2004
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hejtmane on September 04, 2014, 01:58:20 AM
Paragon Motors, trusted to be thrown by grav control since 2004

Do not worry you have time to dodge because it takes them 10 years to throw the stupid car  :P
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cobra Man on September 04, 2014, 01:58:55 AM
The Secret World has done an amazing job utilizing voice work into an MMO.  Your character never speaks. Cutscenes are always observing conversations between NPCs or from an NPC to you, not you speaking back. 
 
It does bring the world to life in a way that MMOs could use to attract the younger generation of players. That being said, it should be used sparingly, and a mix of voice and text is the best approach, in my opinion.
 
So for example:
 
NPC 1 (V.O.): "So if the Trolls aren't put down fast, Superadine is going to flood the streets. I don't even want to imagine what Skyway City will look like after that happens. Are you in?"
 
Your character:  select one of the following text box responses
   [I'm in. Let's move.]
 X[I agree, but I have something I have to first.  I'll be back, I promise]
   [I'm sorry, but this mission isn't for me. Good luck and godspeed.]
x- represents your selection
 
NPC 1: (V.O.) "OK, but please don't take too long. Those shipments could start hitting the streets any time now."


 
 
Also, @Irish Girl:  You are amazing. That work you've done is incredible.  Not only does it REALLY feel like CoH, it looks even better! I'll be in touch to help once you settle on a way to contact you and begin organizing.  I'll be bringing the CS6 suite and my own UE4 to the cause. :-)

Pretty much this :)

The Secret World was just about the only game that I could bring myself to play after CoH was closed.

The immersive nature of that game was helped immeasurably by the use of speech integrated NPC's.

I would certainly recommend that any revamp of CoH uses speech.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ObsidianPhoenix76 on September 04, 2014, 02:05:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyn_YuMLSNc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyn_YuMLSNc)

Almost there!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Safehouse on September 04, 2014, 02:07:13 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyn_YuMLSNc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyn_YuMLSNc)

Almost there!

I literally watched that exact video earlier today. It made me cry, it was so beautifully done!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 02:07:43 AM
By the way...  A note to anyone who has/will PM me...
Forgive me if I don't respond right away. I'll try to at least respond to PM's before the day's out.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: gypsyav on September 04, 2014, 02:22:19 AM
I may be the one person who feels this way, but I prefer it when games don't have speech, so all of the conversation uses my character's actual name.

Nope, you're not the only one. I have trouble focusing on audible communications and just end up feeling lost in games with speech.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 04, 2014, 02:22:53 AM
Downloading the UnReal 4 client now.

The version is the newest one but I assume you can rollback. I did not see options to get a different one.

I did get word from Codewalker that he is fine with porting Icon over to UnReal 4. Now to figure out how to do all this stuff!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: KennonGL on September 04, 2014, 02:23:41 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyn_YuMLSNc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyn_YuMLSNc)

Almost there!

Darn it all, I have to stop watching those CoH videos (That one, the "City of Heroes Remains", the original one from
Angry Angels, and of course anything from SamuraiKo).  Now I have to type through watery eyes.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 02:25:35 AM
I literally watched that exact video earlier today. It made me cry, it was so beautifully done!
   totally agreed.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hejtmane on September 04, 2014, 02:25:43 AM
Nope, you're not the only one. I have trouble focusing on audible communications and just end up feeling lost in games with speech.

I play most MMO's with out sound now I use to rock my kids to sleep in one arm while playing DAOC and it was hard to do with headsets back then they did not have near the wirless options they do now and it was a lot more back then on the ones they did. I just started playing with the sound off so when i transition games I was just use to playing with no sound so I just turn it off and play music.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: opprime2828 on September 04, 2014, 02:29:46 AM
I play most MMO's with out sound now I use to rock my kids to sleep in one arm while playing DAOC and it was hard to do with headsets back then they did not have near the wirless options they do now and it was a lot more back then on the ones they did. I just started playing with the sound off so when i transition games I was just use to playing with no sound so I just turn it off and play music.

I think that's why it's always best to use a mix.  Players who prefer no dialogue should get the option for subtitles or text boxes, and players who prefer dialogue get the option for dialogue alongside the others.
 
 
The key is to keep a minimal addition to the game that adds a level or realism and professionalism to help games compete with more elaborate titles and systems, and bring the world more "to life" without taking away from anything. 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: opprime2828 on September 04, 2014, 02:32:41 AM
Aaaand for the  double:
 
 
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
 
I will gladly get a second mortgage if it meant we could somehow get Bio Armor online if CoH goes back up. 
 
 
I mean Bio Armor was just so...pretty...and good...and pretty. 
 
 
Did I mention how pretty it was?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 02:33:29 AM
 already thinking of how mind-blowing it would be, and on top of that, the chance to re-unite with some dear friends from the game again.....man, 2 nites in a row, tearing-up...that's not "good form" for a Blaster,lol :)  All Blessings upon all those who have been laboring so hard to bring this about.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 04, 2014, 02:35:16 AM
that's not "good form" for a Blaster,lol :)

I seem to remember a Blaster being thought of as good as long as they didn't die every few seconds, run from the tank when they had aggro, and didn't kill the team by pulling a room the tank wasn't expecting. So, from where I'm standing, you're doing a fine job :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: gypsyav on September 04, 2014, 02:40:12 AM
I just thought of another problem with speech. Suppose you want to update something down the road. You have the following choices:

It's different in a game that isn't going to be seeing a lot of updates but I wouldn't want theme to be held up over concerns like this.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 02:42:17 AM
I seem to remember a Blaster being thought of as good as long as they didn't die every few seconds, run from the tank when they had aggro, and didn't kill the team by pulling a room the tank wasn't expecting. So, from where I'm standing, you're doing a fine job :)
a Blaster that..that..doesn't die ?   no such critter,lol ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Phaetan on September 04, 2014, 02:46:49 AM
I don't know about that.  Erkia Enriche (Water/Mental Blaster) was pretty sturdy, even coping with being Goldside.

I just wish I'd gotten more time to play with her before shutdown, as it was a really fun character, both concept and power-wise.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ivanhedgehog on September 04, 2014, 02:51:11 AM
I just thought of another problem with speech. Suppose you want to update something down the road. You have the following choices:
  • You try to hire the original voice actor to voice the new content
  • You hire a new actor to redo all the content so the voice is consistent throughout the game
  • You hire a new actor for the new content and hope the change in voices doesn't break immersion for people
  • New content gets no voice overs

It's different in a game that isn't going to be seeing a lot of updates but I wouldn't want theme to be held up over concerns like this.

swtor broke the bank on voice overs and now hasnt had any class story released since the start of the game. it is very limited as to what content they can add.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Phaetan on September 04, 2014, 02:52:29 AM
Another minor point about voiceovers is that it isn't terribly friendly for international players or the hearing-impaired.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Shifter on September 04, 2014, 02:56:50 AM
Ok, so...by special request. New pictures of REALLY unpolished stuff.
Warning: Seriously under construction.

Very cool. Thanks for passing those along : )
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 02:56:59 AM
Another minor point about voiceovers is that it isn't terribly friendly for international players or the hearing-impaired.

    there are aspects of voice-over that I think can be very fun . Perhaps if live voice-actors were added who would really communicate and keep it fresh, people would like it more ?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cobra Man on September 04, 2014, 02:59:57 AM
Another minor point about voiceovers is that it isn't terribly friendly for international players or the hearing-impaired.

The easy fix is to have an option for subtitles that cab be turned on/off.

No problem.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ObsidianPhoenix76 on September 04, 2014, 03:00:58 AM
Darn it all, I have to stop watching those CoH videos (That one, the "City of Heroes Remains", the original one from
Angry Angels, and of course anything from SamuraiKo).  Now I have to type through watery eyes.

Ok then I will not post my farewell video...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 03:02:07 AM

   I know the feeling,mate :) but noooo, please post video :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Phaetan on September 04, 2014, 03:03:19 AM
Not to be rude, hopelives, but that  completely ignores the point I'd brought up.  And live speech would be even more unhelpful for them, as they couldn't even count on accurate subtitles/translations on the fly.

Plus the sheer scale of the voicework for something with the amount of content as CoH would be daunting.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Pherdnut on September 04, 2014, 03:04:57 AM
Downloading the UnReal 4 client now.

The version is the newest one but I assume you can rollback. I did not see options to get a different one.

I did get word from Codewalker that he is fine with porting Icon over to UnReal 4. Now to figure out how to do all this stuff!

If it were Node.js, it would be easy. But we can't all live in divine providence : D

Actually I'm really psyched about UE4 and embarrassed at myself for not realizing how big of a deal it was while moping over COH's apparent death. 19 bucks for anybody? It's a game changer. Still not as painless as Node.js is on the install equation mind you but nothing is perfect.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ObsidianPhoenix76 on September 04, 2014, 03:06:14 AM
   I know the feeling,mate :) but noooo, please post video :)

Don't say I did not warn you....

While not a professional as others, I thought I did ok with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAFUpmFMaIY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAFUpmFMaIY)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Talon Blue on September 04, 2014, 03:06:34 AM
I am so tempted to fire up Mids and start planning. I'm holding back to be safe and not get caught up by expectation. But after being away from CoH for so long, I really hope the deal goes through.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 03:06:50 AM
Not to be rude, hopelives, but that  completely ignores the point I'd brought up.  And live speech would be even more unhelpful for them, as they couldn't even count on accurate subtitles/translations on the fly.

Plus the sheer scale of the voicework for something with the amount of content as CoH would be daunting.
i do understand your point and that not everyone would be able to hear the voice-actors, but that's  where your work-a-round ideas would work great for then, no ?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Pherdnut on September 04, 2014, 03:14:41 AM
Pretty much this :)

The Secret World was just about the only game that I could bring myself to play after CoH was closed.

The immersive nature of that game was helped immeasurably by the use of speech integrated NPC's.

I would certainly recommend that any revamp of CoH uses speech.

I stopped playing but I did love that about TSW and that experience vs what SWTOR was reporting on the development side of it inform many of my opinions on the matter. But you do have to be careful even with that precaution. MMO might go decades. Voice actors get hit by buses and heart attacks. You only get so many opportunities to record potential flashbacks with Aunt May and nobody ever has pre-emptive money to invest.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 03:16:36 AM
Don't say I did not warn you....

While not a professional as others, I thought I did ok with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAFUpmFMaIY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAFUpmFMaIY)
i really do understand, and am sorry for your loss. CoH was the last  game, the last mmo that my wife and I played before she passed on,and we both loved it. So I do understand how hard it is to go on. Bless You,Mate,always.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 04, 2014, 03:26:34 AM
a Blaster that..that..doesn't die ?   no such critter,lol ;)

You need to hang out with me.. my Blasters do not die constantly...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Waffles on September 04, 2014, 03:35:18 AM
You need to hang out with me.. my Blasters do not die constantly...

Water/dark and Archery/mm were pretty big murder-machines.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Remaugen on September 04, 2014, 03:37:50 AM
You need to hang out with me.. my Blasters do not die constantly...

My first toon was a Defender that I played as a "Fake Blaster/Fake Healer" that did die constantly. I would imagine that it took me about eighteen times the normal XP to finally make it to 50. When I finally made a real blaster, it died just as often. . .


We're almost there!   ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 03:41:30 AM

 well, time for me to sleep. Stay strong,friends. I wish you all the best of nights :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 04, 2014, 04:00:35 AM
Ok guys, recall, this is still still very much tentative, so I would not recommend buying anything just yet.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 04, 2014, 04:06:01 AM
Water/dark and Archery/mm were pretty big murder-machines.

My elec/elec/elec blaster had a hard time facing enemies able to do much more than gently poke her - immensely satisfying.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 04, 2014, 04:08:35 AM
Ok guys, recall, this is still still very much tentative, so I would not recommend buying anything just yet.

Well, what was Irish_Girl going to do with Atlas Park Revival before this deal was put on the table with NCSoft?    ;)   Don't worry, Downix, it's only $19.00 US.  I doubt many of us are planning on getting a bunch of updates or anything at this point.  And $19.00, that's barely over a month's cost for a CoX sub.  Don't take it as a pressure thing where you guys suddenly have to make NCSoft ink a deal.  We know it's still unlikely it will all really happen.  Think of it as free advertising for Unreal 4, and think of us as a bunch of CoX players antsy to get back in touch with our game however we can.   We're all just noodling around at this point.  Worst case, maybe you will someday get a few free donations to the UE4 cause for CoT.   :D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 04, 2014, 04:09:03 AM
Don't say I did not warn you....

While not a professional as others, I thought I did ok with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAFUpmFMaIY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAFUpmFMaIY)
Amazing stuff.   As a person who got emotionally attached to characters, your Crystal character must have meant the world to you.  Got me all choked up thinking about you and your daughter.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Pherdnut on September 04, 2014, 04:35:56 AM
All talk aside, thank you guys for the work you've done. Seriously, it's just beyond belief. I'm 39. I played Space Invaders on an Atari 800 tape drive. I wrote for Game Informer magazine for a few years. I write code now. I know how this stuff usually goes as a gamer, a developer, and somebody who got a front row seat to much of the gaming industry for a few years just as the mega-publishers were really starting to assert themselves as IP-strip-mining douchebags.

Whether it pans out or not, I have never seen anything like this happen in my life. I was finally able to watch the Q&A video with Matt Miller about COH's end from way back because of your efforts (it was too soul-crushing before now). And just in case you don't recall, I think you should all be reminded of this particular MM quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYBzs5P3eBs

28:34

Quote
"...we've had discussions you know, like the designers the programmers and I, you know, who've all found other jobs and everything and we're like, could you imagine what would happen if they actually did succeed? In like getting City of Heroes back and like could you imagine them looking through our code trying to figure out exactly what made this game work? And everyone's like, 'That could never happen. They would... they'd be lost...'"

I'm pretty sure that guy loved this fanbase but he still underestimated it. I did too.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hejtmane on September 04, 2014, 04:36:55 AM
Ok guys, recall, this is still still very much tentative, so I would not recommend buying anything just yet.

Yet this is still more fun then logging into Diablo III trying to pass the time

How sad is that
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Power Arc X on September 04, 2014, 04:44:53 AM
I've only read to page 32 so far and seeing Alien One post about how Deschs guide to the Softcap helped him. It was Deschs guide that also helped me immensely but also reading Alien One, Sailboat, THB and Arcanavilles post on the CoH forums. I still have a copy of Arcanas MA/SR Mids build that was posted, was using it compare my build which didn't have all those purples she had.
   Anyways I just wanted to say Thank You to them for all the great information they shared on the CoH forums.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Codewalker on September 04, 2014, 04:45:39 AM
I was finally able to watch the Q&A video with Matt Miller about COH's end from way back because of your efforts (it was too soul-crushing before now). And just in case you don't recall, I think you should all be reminded of this particular MM quote:

That quote always makes me gigglecackle like a mad scientist uncontrollably.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 04:49:46 AM
Why don't you download Unreal 4 and join the efforts?

Oh I've considered it. For the moment though, my work are keeping me busy studying for Microsoft certification, and that's taking up most of my free time. :(
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Biz on September 04, 2014, 04:56:41 AM
Would it be possible to do something similar to what was done with Ironwolf and the New Efforts thread? Where there is relevant info posted/added to the initial post? Maybe this could also be the questions answered section? Just to avoid the drama that occurred in the New Efforts thread where people were saying "OFF TOPIC/ HATE SIFTING THRU NONSENSE / BARK BARK BARK".
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Spellcaster Hana on September 04, 2014, 04:59:09 AM
Ok, so...by special request. New pictures of REALLY unpolished stuff.
Warning: Seriously under construction.
Images will be hidden under spoiler tags, so Agge doesn't smack me with her mod hat.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10644522_329455817214641_6698756546108573220_o.jpg)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/10543567_329455773881312_5889642776631709311_o.jpg)
The plaza of Steel Canyon's University.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10648348_329455763881313_9190186255596272964_o.jpg)
The first shot of Independence Port.
In this picture, you might be able to see the hintings of one of my favorite changes that I'm making.
If you're flying along, and you look out past the War Walls...You can see the rest of Paragon City in the distance.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/10580708_329455787214644_2155914609070580591_o.jpg)
Another shot of I.P. a tad closer to the bridge.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10669372_329455810547975_2418838020023202468_o.jpg)
I have no idea where this is. I think it's from a different game. /sarcasm

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10669040_329455807214642_4537574222062157673_o.jpg)
This picture...is Paragon City from above. It should have the War Walls for just about all of the cities zones. Only Atlas Park, Independance Port, and Founders Falls have any of the zone detail showing in this image however.

Holy fudge! These looks awesome! Now I really want to play CoX again...
I know I shouldn't keep my hopes up until a decision has been made, but you have just given me more hope not to give up!  ;D
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 04, 2014, 05:01:40 AM
I wonder  ... are there plans to include speech in the revamp?

From someone who plays EQ2...trust me, it's not as awesome as you expect. Occasionally kinda cool, like the Sarnak newbie quests, but more often annoying, glitchy, and repetitive.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 04, 2014, 05:04:46 AM
ive definitely tempered my enthusiasm.. I havent looked at Mids for a whole two days..
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Remidi on September 04, 2014, 06:32:06 AM
I played Space Invaders on an Atari 800 tape drive.

My first computer game was Pong.  Yes, I'm that darned old.  But I still remember that rush from knowing that the thing on the screen was moving because *I* told it to.  I think that's why I love CoH so much.  No other game has captured that pure feeling of being in control of my own computer universe.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Mental Minister on September 04, 2014, 06:36:44 AM
Holy fudge! These looks awesome! Now I really want to play CoX again...

You said it after seeing these pics I want to hit the Super Speed and rip through Paragon
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: amrobinson on September 04, 2014, 06:39:43 AM
It suddenly occurs to me, have I stopped and said "thank you" to all of the wonderful people who have done so much to bring back our beloved City of Heroes?

The only MMO I really have cared to play?

Hmm....
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: amrobinson on September 04, 2014, 06:40:35 AM
THANK YOU ONE AND ALL!!!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Number9 on September 04, 2014, 06:41:23 AM
My first computer game was Pong.  Yes, I'm that darned old.  But I still remember that rush from knowing that the thing on the screen was moving because *I* told it to.  I think that's why I love CoH so much.  No other game has captured that pure feeling of being in control of my own computer universe.

I'd add no other MMO has given me the feeling of character ownership.  Closest thing to a paper and pencil RPG vibe Ive found in an MMO.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Arcana on September 04, 2014, 07:08:04 AM
Sooooo...

I have to put this disclaimer in: I'm not a part of the downix licensing team, or for that matter a part of any of the CoH2.0 dev teams.  So I'm most definitely not speaking for any of them nor claiming any special insider knowledge on that particular score.  I have read the thread, and 850 posts and a bunch of emails telling me to read 850 posts, so I thought I would share my thoughts, mostly because this development is interesting and partially because I haven't posted a wall of text about City of Heroes in a couple of years.  So, partially responding to whatever I remember from the thread, and partially responding to questions people have asked me out of band:

1.  I'm sure downix has his reasons, but I'm not sure announcing a deal in the works to us was the best move prior to the deal actually being finalized.  Go ahead shoot me now.  Its energizing for the community, and that's great, but barring some special circumstance I'm unaware of, in all honestly I believe we can do nothing to help them, and we could always accidentally create a circumstance that hurts them, and I would rather they succeed than know about them trying.  Mostly, I'm just saying this because more than one person has asked me.  But I recognize the position they were in, and I'm not explicitly going to knock the decision.  I just hope it all works out.

2.  With MWM and H&V and whatever is behind door number [redacted], does this matter?  Heck yes it matters.  For me, I think if they succeed, the licensed engine could be the bridge between the original game and the successor games not necessarily in the way I think many others are thinking: somehow making characters there and eventually moving them to the successor game(s).  I think the great thing about a licensed I23 City of Heroes is that it could be the community builder that preserves and grows the community and potential playerbase for any successor games that are almost certainly still years away.  This community has remained surprisingly (to me) still active, if significantly muted, over the time since shutdown.  But an actual playable game would be a useful anchor to the CoH community.  It would be a sign of success we could all point to.  It could be a way to evangelize the gameplay and player community we all miss and want back.  And it could help bring success to 2.0 projects by priming a generation of potential customers and players.

3a.  Without the source code, are we crippled in terms of adding or altering content?  Not necessarily.  The game content was not explicitly "programmed" into the game engine, it resided in database files that its no secret people have been decoding and reverse engineering since the days of Iakona (and me, and Codewalker, and lots of others).  It is possible, if difficult, to add things like power sets to the game without the explicit source code.  It might require some hacks to make work, but nothing outside the wheelhouse of, say, Icon's developers.  When Codewalker threatens to keep nerfing regen in I24, that's not just possible, but way too easy for him.  Without the appropriate dev tools, some things would be a lot harder than others - like say making those damn escort critters actually follow your ass correctly - but nothing's impossible, even without source.  Difficult, possibly prohibitively so in some cases, but anything that only involves data (geography, entity definitions, power definitions, basic mission design) is probably at least somewhat modifiable without source.

3b.  Why is source off the table?  Almost certainly IP issues.  High risk zero reward for NCSoft.

4.  Why license the engine and the IP, but not the character data?  Its possible NCSoft doesn't want to open a legal can of worms.  Legally, I believe they have the right to relicense that data due to the provisions of the EULA, but what if some players do not want us to have their character data?  Its possible.  They may not have a legal leg to stand on, but its probably not worth it for NCSoft to take that risk.  And while I don't think this is true, if the only copies NCSoft currently has of the character data are in backup files that also contain other stuff, like say chat logs?  They may not want to go anywhere near the stuff, or take the one in a hundred chance that some operator somewhere accidentally releases the wrong thing to a third party.

5.  Is there a conflict of interest in having MWM people form an entity to control the licensing of CoH IP?  I certainly can't speak for them, but I don't think that's necessarily true.  The question is what the mission statement of that entity becomes, if they succeed.  If their up-front mission statement is to in effect create a sort of RAND licensing model for allowing all reasonable projects that want to incorporate that material access to it, and those terms are explicitly and publicly stated, I don't see a problem.  Part of that mission statement would be a completely hands-off approach to how any downstream project eventually forks that material into their own vision for their own game.  If they can do that, I don't see a problem.

I should also point out that alternatively, there's no explicit requirement to "play fair" as it were.  Its great if they choose to do so, and they seem (from what I've read) to want to go in that direction.  But worrying about whether they can live up to that seems highly premature before they actually reach a deal and before they actually announce the specifics of how they intend to manage the property if they acquire it.  I would say if they manage to pull this off, they are entitled to more than a little latitude in how they decide to manage its use.  It sounds like a tremendous amount of effort sustained over a long period of time.  If they succeed, as far as I'm concerned they've earned the right to handle that part any way they want.

6.  Should we be worried the game client won't work by the time they get access to the game?  Well, on the one hand the game client did work in Win7x64, and I think I tested it in Win8 beta successfully.  Win9 might break it, but if it does it will likely be in the OpenGL support, which might be tweakable to make it work regardless.  Personally I don't think this is as big a deal as downix suggests.

Also, Windows 8 sucks.  Even Microsoft is backpedaling from it faster than a bear with an umbrella at the circus.

7.  About that game server.  If they get it, I wish them luck making it work.  Its not impossible, of course, but I know a little something about how the game servers worked, and without saying something that will get me banned from the ... oh wait, I forgot, I'm not rambling on the game forums this time.  Because I'm not affiliated with any group or team, I can't get anyone in trouble but myself here, so I'll just say for those speculating, no, the game server wasn't a bunch of Linux boxes or anything like that: it was Windows based.  It had several moving parts.  It was clunky.  When someone decided to herd up all of Crey's Folly and nuke it and crashed the entire Freedom server, someone was probably RDPing into something and restarting something.  Like manually.  Running CoH servers on a large scale (i.e. enough players to run a Magisterium or more) is not just about spinning up some AWS instances and running the installer.  Its about loading the right hamsters in the right wheels next to the right water bottles and then cleaning their cages periodically while making sure they don't fall asleep or eat each other.

And they get hungry.

8.  Am I concerned MWM solicited Kickstarter money when they were working to try to license CoH?  Not at all.  This was, and still is a long shot.  I funded the Kickstarter knowing that many Kickstarter developments fail, that even if it succeeded in shipping a game it might not be a game I ultimately wanted to play, that no matter what happened it would be years before I saw final results, and knowing that there were other things in motion that might or might not preempt that work.  I don't know anything more today than I did when I funded the Kickstarter, and I don't honestly believe anyone else really does either. 

9.  My vision isn't trite.   :P

10.  Power Arc X: when the servers come back on, come see me for those purples.

11.  Pherdnut: I spent over six months getting to about 70% awareness of how the animation system worked and how it interacted with the combat engine when the game was still alive, circa 2007ish.  At that time, I probably knew the details as well as anyone.  It almost melted my brain.  Every other question I asked BaB was "Why?  Why?  WHY???"  And he'd just shrug.  The game implementation is like that, only more of your brain leaks out of your ears.  That's why Codewalker is the only player I fear.  He likes it.  That's Cthulhu kinds of wrong.

12.  Irish_Girl: I'm happy to see all that work on glintercept is still being used.

13.  Nyx:  http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/duckvsduct.html

14.  TonyV:  notice I posted the off-topic stuff in a post with a ton of on-topic stuff.  I still remember my forum-jitsu.

-A
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 07:18:01 AM
That quote always makes me gigglecackle like a mad scientist uncontrollably.

That's because you're (no offense) totally nuts, C.W.
Oh, and from what I've heard...you probably know more about CoHs code than the Paragon devs did.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 04, 2014, 07:18:49 AM
I just asked someone about this whole thing as well and they were concerned with it.  They fear that should this go through NCSoft will just use the licsence to shut CoT down when it comes out.  So whats really happening to the IP itself?  We know they are licensing the binary of the game engine but what about the IP.  Who's licensing the IP itself, the company that buys the IP entirely or NCSoft?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 04, 2014, 07:26:34 AM
If it were Node.js, it would be easy. But we can't all live in divine providence : D

Actually I'm really psyched about UE4 and embarrassed at myself for not realizing how big of a deal it was while moping over COH's apparent death. 19 bucks for anybody? It's a game changer. Still not as painless as Node.js is on the install equation mind you but nothing is perfect.

I feel the same way. To the point that I almost want to wait for CoH 1.5 and not play CoHI23 at all.

Like that would ever happen. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 04, 2014, 07:34:34 AM
Whether it pans out or not, I have never seen anything like this happen in my life. I was finally able to watch the Q&A video with Matt Miller about COH's end from way back because of your efforts (it was too soul-crushing before now). And just in case you don't recall, I think you should all be reminded of this particular MM quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYBzs5P3eBs

28:34

I'm pretty sure that guy loved this fanbase but he still underestimated it. I did too.

That quote from Matt makes me think of a developer I used to know. He put a time bomb in some of the old code just in case he ever got layed off. He had to reset it every month or so to stop it from going off.
He always thought no one would ever be able to find it or determine what it did.

I got the axe a couple months after he told me so I never found out if anything ever happened from it. Then again, the company did go under just a little while after that... hmmmm.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 07:36:12 AM
When Codewalker threatens to keep nerfing regen in I24, that's not just possible, but way too easy for him.
That's because CW is scary.

Why is source off the table?  Almost certainly IP issues.  High risk zero reward for NCSoft.
I believe it's because pieces of the code base are shared between City of Heroes, and NCSofts other games. They don't want to give away code they actively use.

Also, Windows 8 sucks.  Even Microsoft is backpedaling from it faster than a bear with an umbrella at the circus.
No comment. (-whispers- Sucks, SO much.)

7.  About that game server.  If they get it, I wish them luck making it work.
Yeah...Somehow that sounds about right...

It almost melted my brain.  Every other question I asked BaB was "Why?  Why?  WHY???"  And he'd just shrug.  The game implementation is like that, only more of your brain leaks out of your ears.
No small part of the reason some of us are jumping at the excuse to move to a new engine...

That's why Codewalker is the only player I fear.  He likes it.  That's Cthulhu kinds of wrong.
See above. Codewalker is crazy. Also, scary. Crazy scary.

Irish_Girl: I'm happy to see all that work on glintercept is still being used.
I've made quite frequent, and extensive use of it so far.

TonyV:  notice I posted the off-topic stuff in a post with a ton of on-topic stuff.  I still remember my forum-jitsu.[/quotes] So far he's been nice enough not to throw anything at me for sliding off topic at times. Maybe he just didn't notice. -ninja-


I just hope it all works out.
So do we all. So do we all...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 07:36:41 AM
That quote from Matt makes me think of a developer I used to know. He put a time bomb in some of the old code just in case he ever got layed off. He had to reset it every month or so to stop it from going off.
He always thought no one would ever be able to find it or determine what it did.

I got the axe a couple months after he told me so I never found out if anything ever happened from it. Then again, the company did go under just a little while after that... hmmmm.

What an idiot.  That would be classed as industrial sabotage. People have gone to prison for that.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 04, 2014, 07:40:33 AM
What an idiot.  That would be classed as industrial sabotage. People have gone to prison for that.

Programmers are known for their hubris.  Big time.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 07:41:26 AM
Programmers are known for their hubris.  Big time.

Only a very small number of us!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 04, 2014, 07:44:39 AM
Only a very small number of us!

Almost every information security expert I met very noticeably thinks otherwise.  I still see very stupid password systems out there in place on very modern and very new websites and i'm left utterly facepalming for it.  Then there are those who try to make encryption, and the horror stories of how easily said programmer-made encryption gets utterly busted since it wasn't made by professional cryptographers.  The NISTS are out there for a reason.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 07:47:11 AM
Ok guys, recall, this is still still very much tentative, so I would not recommend buying anything just yet.

I've gotta re-iterate this as well. There's still no guarantees. Don't start spending a bunch of money on stuff just yet.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 04, 2014, 07:52:50 AM
What an idiot.  That would be classed as industrial sabotage. People have gone to prison for that.

I absolutely agree, but this was back in the late 90s. No security experts around. Heck, our server room at the time was a group of about 30 NT machines linked together.

IT students thought a great way of getting ahead in the business was to hack into something big, get caught, do some jail time, get recruited upon release.
And folks, that is true. Not only did people think that way, some actually pulled it off.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 04, 2014, 07:55:05 AM
Programmers are known for their hubris.  Big time.

Yep. None of them saw the real potential that I knew. Control of the world in two short words, IT Union.

Want to ship our jobs oversees? Ok... where's your data again?
Oh, we can keep our jobs. Let's talk about a raise.

I really should have played more villains. :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 04, 2014, 07:58:17 AM
I absolutely agree, but this was back in the late 90s. No security experts around. Heck, our server room at the time was a group of about 30 NT machines linked together.

IT students thought a great way of getting ahead in the business was to hack into something big, get caught, do some jail time, get recruited upon release.
And folks, that is true. Not only did people think that way, some actually pulled it off.

Of course, these days you get a criminal record, and then bet barred from ever holding any reasonable paying job for your entire life unless you get lucky somehow.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ankhammon on September 04, 2014, 08:03:40 AM
Of course, these days you get a criminal record, and then bet barred from ever holding any reasonable paying job for your entire life unless you get lucky somehow.

Yep. Barred by the same people who used stunts like that to get into the industry in the first place. :)


OH, I never actually said this, but thanks to all of you who have worked so diligently on this. Those who have gone before and failed and to the new crew who is coming closer than many of us thought possible.

Not to be sacrilegious, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2SkqaCO9c4

And finally, just thinking back on all of this Task Force Hail Mary stuff over the years. One thing keeps rolling over and over in my mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib43Lfdivdw
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 04, 2014, 08:10:34 AM
Yep. Barred by the same people who used stunts like that to get into the industry in the first place. :)

This makes me want to link to a Youtube clip from Hackers - the part where the villain on a skateboard rides by holding onto the car and grabs up the disk without stopping.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Arcana on September 04, 2014, 08:15:21 AM
That quote from Matt makes me think of a developer I used to know. He put a time bomb in some of the old code just in case he ever got layed off. He had to reset it every month or so to stop it from going off.
He always thought no one would ever be able to find it or determine what it did.

Not that you necessarily were implying this, but that wasn't what Matt was referring to.  He was referring to the fact that half the time the programmers were altering the code, they didn't always know why previous developers did what they did.  Then the next guy would make changes, wondering just what the heck that guy was thinking when he did what he did.  To understand the codebase, you didn't need to just be a programmer, you needed to be an archaeologist.

Back around 2010ish, I believe, the players started to post about yet another one of those crazy conspiracy theories about how the game rewards were rigged in a particular way.  Except I started to get a weird jibe about this one, and started following the discussion carefully.  Based on the tests the players were posting, there was no way random chance could have accounted for their observations, all but eliminating observer bias.  So I began collecting my own data and adding it to the data being posted, and started talking to pohsyb about those observations, emphasizing that in my opinion, this particular problem (rewards sometimes being given in nearly identical amounts in similar ways in multiple runs of the same mission) was not just another "accuracy is nerfed" threads.  He decided to look, and discovered that deep within the code of the reward system one of the developers had written their own random number generator rather than use the standard rand().

Why, why, WHY?  Who knows.  But they did, and it was totally broken, and under certain circumstances could generate "random" results so bad they essentially made certain mission rewards predictable.  Which, in an MMO played by dozens or hundreds of people at a time, is a *really* bad rand.

Now imagine you have ten years of that lurking around, mixed in with code written back when 8 gigs of ram was a really big server and bit-masking was the official Cryptic Studios sport.

You know how you can spot the Cryptic/Paragon developer in a crowd?  Yell "physics engine" and see which one ducks.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 08:25:36 AM
-facepalms- That's...special, and sadly...Unsurprising.

I didn't know you were so knowledgeable about CoH's code base, Arcana.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 04, 2014, 08:30:13 AM
That story was... impressive. It really is one of those moments where a part of me goes "how did CoH never just randomly implode from someone walking backwards, to the left, and then hopping twice?"

Thanks for sharing it :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on September 04, 2014, 08:37:29 AM
I just thought of another problem with speech. Suppose you want to update something down the road. You have the following choices:
  • You try to hire the original voice actor to voice the new content
  • You hire a new actor to redo all the content so the voice is consistent throughout the game
  • You hire a new actor for the new content and hope the change in voices doesn't break immersion for people
  • New content gets no voice overs

It's different in a game that isn't going to be seeing a lot of updates but I wouldn't want theme to be held up over concerns like this.
Option five: Employ speech synthesis.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 08:41:21 AM
That story was... impressive. It really is one of those moments where a part of me goes "how did CoH never just randomly implode from someone walking backwards, to the left, and then hopping twice?"

Because Paragon Studios worked very, very hard to keep things in a state of barely-falling-apart.
Things like that explain why occasionally...a server or two would just suddenly stop running. Used to joke that an intern kept tripping over power cords.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Burnt Toast on September 04, 2014, 08:41:51 AM

Just a little nitpick: MWM is not part of the negotiations for the IP/license. Nate (Downix); who is President of MWM, headed the efforts, but his involvement is his involvement and not MWM. At least that is the way I understood things....

Sooooo...

8.  Am I concerned MWM solicited Kickstarter money when they were working to try to license CoH?  Not at all.  This was, and still is a long shot.  I funded the Kickstarter knowing that many Kickstarter developments fail, that even if it succeeded in shipping a game it might not be a game I ultimately wanted to play, that no matter what happened it would be years before I saw final results, and knowing that there were other things in motion that might or might not preempt that work.  I don't know anything more today than I did when I funded the Kickstarter, and I don't honestly believe anyone else really does either.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Kistulot on September 04, 2014, 08:43:14 AM
Because Paragon Studios worked very, very hard to keep things in a state of barely-falling-apart.
Things like that explain why occasionally...a server or two would just suddenly stop running. Used to joke that an intern kept tripping over power cords.

I always believed them when they said Mot spilled blood on the servers.

...well okay secretly I believed Mot had a taste for Clamato...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: LaughingAlex on September 04, 2014, 08:50:37 AM
Just a little nitpick: MWM is not part of the negotiations for the IP/license. Nate (Downix); who is President of MWM, headed the efforts, but his involvement is his involvement and not MWM. At least that is the way I understood things....

Honestly I just want to understand what they mean by a central company licensing the CoX IP, tbh.  Would NcSoft still own the IP or are they licensing to the central company liscencing the CoX IP to the successors?  To my understanding the company owns the IP but I want to make sure I understand it right.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 08:55:47 AM
Just a little nitpick: MWM is not part of the negotiations for the IP/license. Nate (Downix); who is President of MWM, headed the efforts, but his involvement is his involvement and not MWM. At least that is the way I understood things....
This is correct.

Honestly I just want to understand what they mean by a central company licensing the CoX IP, tbh.  Would NcSoft still own the IP or are they licensing to the central company liscencing the CoX IP to the successors?  To my understanding the company owns the IP but I want to make sure I understand it right.

The plan, as I understand it, is for a new company to be formed. NCSoft would sell the I.P., and license the CoH engine to this company.
This company would then set up and run the Legacy City of Heroes server, and then license the I.P. to MWM and Revival. (and eventually, others I believe.)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Thunder Glove on September 04, 2014, 08:58:38 AM
I'm one of the few people who was really disappointed by the outcome of "Praetorian Fatigue." I'll agree Primal Earth needed some love, but it felt a very unsatisfying way to end things. I get that their Hamidon is uber in a million ways, but evacuating what few people we could and leaving a world to be overrun just made me feel really disappointed.

I don't think that was how it was meant to end.  I24 had a new Incarnate Arc (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Number_Six) where you went back to Pretoria and help them power up their anti-Hamidon defenses, as well as take down a number of Avatars of Hamidon yourself, so there seemed to be plans to let the player fight back against Hamidon in Pretoria, and possibly eventually win.

Sadly, we'll probably never know what Paragon had planned for Pretoria in the future.  Of course, with a new team at the helm, there's no reason that Issue 25 (or, more likely, Vol 2, Issue 1) can't have some Incarnates dealing with Pretorian Hamidon while the majority deals with the Battalion.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 09:02:09 AM
Sadly, we'll probably never know what Paragon had planned for Pretoria in the future.  Of course, with a new team at the helm, there's no reason that Issue 25 (or, more likely, Vol 2, Issue 1) can't have some Incarnates dealing with Pretorian Hamidon while the majority deals with the Battalion.

Hrm... if only there was someone in this thread who might end up in a position of authority on such matters...

Oh wait. ;P
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Arcana on September 04, 2014, 09:07:21 AM
That story was... impressive. It really is one of those moments where a part of me goes "how did CoH never just randomly implode from someone walking backwards, to the left, and then hopping twice?"

In July (I think) of 2004 Triumph randomly imploded.  I was logged in, playing, and poof, d/c.  I logged back in and discovered that everyone else had been kicked simultaneously. 

Also, I was stuck in a mountain and couldn't get out.  At all.

No one I knew with teleport logged back on for quite some time, so while I waited for a friend to teleport me back to the surface world I flew around under the map and randomly shot at the feet of spawns that other players were street sweeping.

That's some serious mind screw there when the game is only a few months old, most of the players aren't really sure what's normal and what's not, they can't see you, you're playing an energy blaster with a lot of knockback, and you can actually shoot critters that are standing on the ground.  If you were a player on Triumph in July of 2004, were logged in on crash day, and had critters randomly erupt from the street in Talos Island while you were street sweeping: sorry.

I think after that day, developers were no longer allowed to hop in the office.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Safehouse on September 04, 2014, 11:16:49 AM
In July (I think) of 2004 Triumph randomly imploded.  I was logged in, playing, and poof, d/c.  I logged back in and discovered that everyone else had been kicked simultaneously. 

Also, I was stuck in a mountain and couldn't get out.  At all.

No one I knew with teleport logged back on for quite some time, so while I waited for a friend to teleport me back to the surface world I flew around under the map and randomly shot at the feet of spawns that other players were street sweeping.

That's some serious mind screw there when the game is only a few months old, most of the players aren't really sure what's normal and what's not, they can't see you, you're playing an energy blaster with a lot of knockback, and you can actually shoot critters that are standing on the ground.  If you were a player on Triumph in July of 2004, were logged in on crash day, and had critters randomly erupt from the street in Talos Island while you were street sweeping: sorry.

I think after that day, developers were no longer allowed to hop in the office.

The mental images that I have from that story are pretty hilarious. I keep imagining someone trying to fight off Hellions and then seeing them go flying back for no apparent reason. There must've been chaos on Triumph that day!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Lava-Lad on September 04, 2014, 11:38:41 AM
I am so tempted to fire up Mids and start planning. I'm holding back to be safe and not get caught up by expectation. But after being away from CoH for so long, I really hope the deal goes through.

I have started rolling leveling SO builds (it's like a blast from the past - pre the invention system)!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: CrimsonCapacitor on September 04, 2014, 11:43:23 AM
That quote always makes me gigglecackle like a mad scientist uncontrollably.

And that's different than normal... how, exactly?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: blacksly on September 04, 2014, 12:26:25 PM
3a.  Without the source code, are we crippled in terms of adding or altering content?  Not necessarily.  The game content was not explicitly "programmed" into the game engine, it resided in database files that its no secret people have been decoding and reverse engineering since the days of Iakona (and me, and Codewalker, and lots of others).  It is possible, if difficult, to add things like power sets to the game without the explicit source code.  It might require some hacks to make work, but nothing outside the wheelhouse of, say, Icon's developers.  When Codewalker threatens to keep nerfing regen in I24, that's not just possible, but way too easy for him.  Without the appropriate dev tools, some things would be a lot harder than others - like say making those damn escort critters actually follow your ass correctly - but nothing's impossible, even without source.  Difficult, possibly prohibitively so in some cases, but anything that only involves data (geography, entity definitions, power definitions, basic mission design) is probably at least somewhat modifiable without source.

That's kind of what I thought... we may be able to keep adding new powers and powersets (animations may be more of an issue), and thus keep issuing new Issues for a while.

Another possible advantage may be that the tools used to edit the databases... may well be separate from the rest of the source code. Frankly, they really should be. So it may be possible to acquire database-editing tools for the powers, NPCs, maybe even sounds & animation databases, without having to delve into source code. Especially since we wouldn't want/need to adjust them, so getting an executable database-editing module is good enough, we would not need the source code for it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 04, 2014, 12:47:51 PM
Honestly I just want to understand what they mean by a central company licensing the CoX IP, tbh.  Would NcSoft still own the IP or are they licensing to the central company liscencing the CoX IP to the successors?  To my understanding the company owns the IP but I want to make sure I understand it right.
Central company owning the IP, licensing it out to other entity.

And yay on Arcana knowing the RAND model.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: downix on September 04, 2014, 12:49:55 PM
That's kind of what I thought... we may be able to keep adding new powers and powersets (animations may be more of an issue), and thus keep issuing new Issues for a while.

Another possible advantage may be that the tools used to edit the databases... may well be separate from the rest of the source code. Frankly, they really should be. So it may be possible to acquire database-editing tools for the powers, NPCs, maybe even sounds & animation databases, without having to delve into source code. Especially since we wouldn't want/need to adjust them, so getting an executable database-editing module is good enough, we would not need the source code for it.
Database editing, not worried about it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: KennonGL on September 04, 2014, 01:20:20 PM
7.  About that game server.  If they get it, I wish them luck making it work.  Its not impossible, of course, but I know a little something about how the game servers worked, and without saying something that will get me banned from the ... oh wait, I forgot, I'm not rambling on the game forums this time.  Because I'm not affiliated with any group or team, I can't get anyone in trouble but myself here, so I'll just say for those speculating, no, the game server wasn't a bunch of Linux boxes or anything like that: it was Windows based.  It had several moving parts.  It was clunky.  When someone decided to herd up all of Crey's Folly and nuke it and crashed the entire Freedom server, someone was probably RDPing into something and restarting something.  Like manually.  Running CoH servers on a large scale (i.e. enough players to run a Magisterium or more) is not just about spinning up some AWS instances and running the installer.  Its about loading the right hamsters in the right wheels next to the right water bottles and then cleaning their cages periodically while making sure they don't fall asleep or eat each other.

And they get hungry.

I don't want to be a worry-wart or a nay-sayer, because I really, really want to go home again...

But I'm pretty much in the habit of "if Arcana says it, I believe it" from the old forum days.

And this statement reads to me like: "Even IF they manage to get the I23 binaries, there's a good chance things still won't work and we won't be getting back to Paragon anytime before 1.5 and/or the successors"

I certainly hope and pray that's not the case.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 04, 2014, 01:25:43 PM
I don't want to be a worry-wart or a nay-sayer, because I really, really want to go home again...

But I'm pretty much in the habit of "if Arcana says it, I believe it" from the old forum days.

And this statement reads to me like: "Even IF they manage to get the I23 binaries, there's a good chance things still won't work and we won't be getting back to Paragon anytime before 1.5 and/or the successors"

I certainly hope and pray that's not the case.

I read that as "because we have Arcana around, we can get pretty much anything to work."

:P
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ObsidianPhoenix76 on September 04, 2014, 01:28:17 PM
Amazing stuff.   As a person who got emotionally attached to characters, your Crystal character must have meant the world to you.  Got me all choked up thinking about you and your daughter.

Yep.  I spent the last days making sure she hit 50.  The clip in my video of her leveling was when she hit 50.  It took me 5 fdays after the shutdown to compile all of the video I recorded, and another 3 to get the video made.

And my new Avatar here on the forums is my re-build of her.  I just can't wait to get her started again.  Changing her from nrg/nrg blaster to titan weapon/nrg aura scrapper.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 01:35:31 PM
I certainly hope and pray that's not the case.

I doubt Nate and the team would be trying to get the I23 server image if they didn't think they could get it to work.
I don't know the exact condition of the server image, myself. (This is what I get for not being rich, or speaking Korean. I don't get to go to the really interesting meetings.)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 04, 2014, 01:38:40 PM
I've gotta re-iterate this as well. There's still no guarantees. Don't start spending a bunch of money on stuff just yet.

I see this a little differently, I see that a LOT of work is going to have to be done to get any of these games working. Anything we can add to the mix means less work for whatever one of these things makes it into production. I do see a possibility that we have 4 failed games and the Original chugging along alone.

However since WE are making things - not NCSoft if one part fails we can hand the work over to a remaining part.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: SemanticAntics on September 04, 2014, 01:55:41 PM
Sadly, we'll probably never know what Paragon had planned for Pretoria in the future.  Of course, with a new team at the helm, there's no reason that Issue 25 (or, more likely, Vol 2, Issue 1) can't have some Incarnates dealing with Pretorian Hamidon while the majority deals with the Battalion.

I really like the sound of this.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Turjan on September 04, 2014, 01:56:45 PM
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 01:57:17 PM
Nate and I do have to make sure that if this deal falls through... We don't want to have a mob of people with fire and pitchforks calling for one, or both, of our heads because people spent money.

Personally, If people want to learn Unreal Engine 4...Go and buy it. Drop 20 bucks, then cancel your sub. I encourage people learning this stuff. It's a lot of fun, and you learn a lot about how/why certain things are they way they are in games.
However, if you're buying it because you want to contribute to Revival. Wait. I'd hate to have people pony up cash, just for us to get a no-go from above. That is only partially due to the above listed fear of Pitchfork-wielding mobs.

I will warn you, however. Something nobody thought to tell me when I got into learning Game creation. Get into it far enough, and you'll never look at games the same way. You start to look at how you think things were built, and how you might build them better/differently. Seriously, I look at games and I like...see Wireframes and scripts, lol.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: SemanticAntics on September 04, 2014, 01:58:29 PM
That's an EXCELLENT suggestion. Putting some kind of functionality for saving a costume you created within the app and importing it into the game would be invaluable. I'm imagining some people in the community having jobs where they travel and can't always log in. But, while they're in a hotel, they can tinker around on the app on their iPad or Android device and come up with some ideas for a new toon.

I know some of the coding members of our community's heads would explode, but wouldn't it be cool to have an app for Mid's Hero Designer as well? Or....even better, make the costume creator and Mid's into one standalone "Hero Designer" app that allows you to literally design your hero from the ground up (costume creation AND power selections)! I'd pay for that!

I'd pay for such a thing, too. Twice, even.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 01:59:03 PM
Of course, with a new team at the helm, there's no reason that Issue 25 (or, more likely, Vol 2, Issue 1) can't have some Incarnates dealing with Pretorian Hamidon while the majority deals with the Battalion.

I kind of like the whole "Volume 2, Issue 1" thing. I've wondered.. Would Revival's first issue be...Issue 1? or Issue 24?
and either way, isn't that a little confusing?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Safehouse on September 04, 2014, 01:59:07 PM
I'm just hoping that, if this deal works out, We can finally see what Battalion was going to look like!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 02:00:49 PM
I will warn you, however. Something nobody thought to tell me when I got into learning Game creation. Get into it far enough, and you'll never look at games the same way. You start to look at how you think things were built, and how you might build them better/differently. Seriously, I look at games and I like...see Wireframes and scripts, lol.

I'm the same with application software. I've been an app developer for 20+ years, so every app I use, I start to pick apart...  Even Windows!

If I wasn't busy studying hard for some annoying Microsoft certifications my work are insisting I take (if I want to keep my job!), I'd love to take a look at game devving... But at my age, I've only got so much space in my brain for new stuff! :p
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 04, 2014, 02:02:46 PM
From someone who plays EQ2...trust me, it's not as awesome as you expect. Occasionally kinda cool, like the Sarnak newbie quests, but more often annoying, glitchy, and repetitive.

I'm on Freeport and Nagafen!   ;D  And yeah, you think voiceovers are bad there, try Elder Scrolls Online.  Zenimax actually got rid of some of them-- including this long-winded banker girl that would give you a five-minute spiel every single time you tried to put something into or withdraw something out of the bank.  OY.  Personally I think voiceovers are the least of our worries, and get annoying and repetitive fast.  At least you can blindly click through the banker chat in a chat window-based NPC chat MMO.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 02:03:08 PM
I kind of like the whole "Volume 2, Issue 1" thing. I've wondered.. Would Revival's first issue be...Issue 1? or Issue 24?
and either way, isn't that a little confusing?

I think the "Volume, Issue 1" is an excellent idea, actually! So Revival's first release would be exactly that! 
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 02:03:24 PM
I'm just hoping that, if this deal works out, We can finally see what Battalion was going to look like!

Posi talked briefly about how they're basically a giant swarm of random alien races, slaved into the army.
So. I guess, picture any mostly-humanoid, bi-pedal alien wearing kick-ass space body armor. Bam. Battalion.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: SemanticAntics on September 04, 2014, 02:04:00 PM
Ok, so...by special request. New pictures of REALLY unpolished stuff.
Warning: Seriously under construction.
Images will be hidden under spoiler tags, so Agge doesn't smack me with her mod hat.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10644522_329455817214641_6698756546108573220_o.jpg)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/10543567_329455773881312_5889642776631709311_o.jpg)
The plaza of Steel Canyon's University.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10648348_329455763881313_9190186255596272964_o.jpg)
The first shot of Independence Port.
In this picture, you might be able to see the hintings of one of my favorite changes that I'm making.
If you're flying along, and you look out past the War Walls...You can see the rest of Paragon City in the distance.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/10580708_329455787214644_2155914609070580591_o.jpg)
Another shot of I.P. a tad closer to the bridge.

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10669372_329455810547975_2418838020023202468_o.jpg)
I have no idea where this is. I think it's from a different game. /sarcasm

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10669040_329455807214642_4537574222062157673_o.jpg)
This picture...is Paragon City from above. It should have the War Walls for just about all of the cities zones. Only Atlas Park, Independance Port, and Founders Falls have any of the zone detail showing in this image however.

Those look incredible! Very exciting.

I will warn you, however. Something nobody thought to tell me when I got into learning Game creation. Get into it far enough, and you'll never look at games the same way. You start to look at how you think things were built, and how you might build them better/differently. Seriously, I look at games and I like...see Wireframes and scripts, lol.

I have found this to be true with most any form of production. I've done a little bit of coding, web design, audio production, and video production over the years and I find that very often while using/listening/watching some piece of content I often wonder how it was made, and how I would do it if I had to re-create it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 02:04:44 PM
I'm on Freeport and Nagafen!   ;D  And yeah, you think voiceovers are bad there, try Elder Scrolls Online.  Zenimax actually got rid of some of them-- including this long-winded banker girl that would give you a five-minute spiel every single time you tried to put something into or withdraw something out of the bank.  OY.  Personally I think voiceovers are the least of our worries, and get annoying and repetitive fast.  At least you can blindly click through the banker chat in a chat window-based NPC chat MMO.

For me, voice overs are great for cut scenes, but forget it for anywhere else... They just get annoying after a bit.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: AlienOne on September 04, 2014, 02:08:41 PM
I will warn you, however. Something nobody thought to tell me when I got into learning Game creation. Get into it far enough, and you'll never look at games the same way. You start to look at how you think things were built, and how you might build them better/differently. Seriously, I look at games and I like...see Wireframes and scripts, lol.

I'm the same way with films after getting my degree and experience in it... My fiance sees a scene and is thinking about the plotline, and I see a scene and I'm thinking about angles and lights and lines and markers and green screen...lol

There are always positives and negatives to becoming an expert in something... ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Codewalker on September 04, 2014, 02:09:36 PM
That's why Codewalker is the only player I fear.  He likes it.  That's Cthulhu kinds of wrong.

I am going to print this out and frame it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: KennonGL on September 04, 2014, 02:10:48 PM
I will warn you, however. Something nobody thought to tell me when I got into learning Game creation. Get into it far enough, and you'll never look at games the same way. You start to look at how you think things were built, and how you might build them better/differently. Seriously, I look at games and I like...see Wireframes and scripts, lol.

Kind of like Neo at the end of The Matrix . . .  :)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 02:11:30 PM
On the subject of voice work... I'm not currently planning on adding Voice work to Revival. That's not to say it's never going to happen, ever. But if it did...It would be around like...the 4th or 5th issue at the earliest.

...I'd have to spend at least that long finding the right voices for the characters.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: tripthicket on September 04, 2014, 02:20:35 PM
On the topic of folks downloading/learning/using Unreal Engine 4:

Should one have any prerequisite knowledge? Know how to program in one or more languages first? Would a program like Blender make constructs that would then plug in to Unreal Engine 4, or is the capability of making such constructs already a part of UE4?

Looks like I gots some research to do. TO THE INTERNET-MOBILE!!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 02:25:00 PM
On the topic of folks downloading/learning/using Unreal Engine 4:

Should one have any prerequisite knowledge? Know how to program in one or more languages first? Would a program like Blender make constructs that would then plug in to Unreal Engine 4, or is the capability of making such constructs already a part of UE4?

Looks like I gots some research to do. TO THE INTERNET-MOBILE!!

Assets like models, and textures have to be built in 3rd party programs such as 3DS Max, and Photoshop. Blender's a good free alternative to Max. I don't use it myself, but I've seen good things built with it. Really, you can use any 3D modeling program that can export in .FBX.
As for textures... I use GIMP. It's fairly robust, and I no longer have a copy of Photoshop. While there are certainly things Photoshop can do that GIMP can't...I've found them to be pretty irrelevant.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: tripthicket on September 04, 2014, 02:32:26 PM
Assets like models, and textures have to be built in 3rd party programs such as 3DS Max, and Photoshop. Blender's a good free alternative to Max. I don't use it myself, but I've seen good things built with it. Really, you can use any 3D modeling program that can export in .FBX.
As for textures... I use GIMP. It's fairly robust, and I no longer have a copy of Photoshop. While there are certainly things Photoshop can do that GIMP can't...I've found them to be pretty irrelevant.

Good to know. I have a subscription to Adobe's Creative Cloud, so access to lots of programs there. Will try noodling around in Blender first, perhaps.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: feculenz on September 04, 2014, 02:35:09 PM
Stunned and amazed at the grace and subtlety involved.  Thank you for being discrete and patient.  And good luck with the entire project.  It feels to me that we will be back and the idea of COH 1.5 is not a terrible one at all. WE all just want to fly again.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 04, 2014, 02:36:30 PM
There are a LOT of Youtube videos on programming in UR4. I am hoping once APR gets up and going with it's own site we can pool the experience that Irishgirl has learned to do the maps.

Understand there is a LOT of work to do beyond maps.

Character creator - I am going to see if I can make an Icon port basically to render all the models and existing costume parts - this alone is a LOT of work. Codewalker used a program to map to existing assets - we have to create the assets and the Creator.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Styrj on September 04, 2014, 02:37:02 PM
Irish_Girl:  Will APR have any type of Beta test schedule planed?  For what its worth, you got my support!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 04, 2014, 02:38:27 PM
Assets like models, and textures have to be built in 3rd party programs such as 3DS Max, and Photoshop. Blender's a good free alternative to Max. I don't use it myself, but I've seen good things built with it. Really, you can use any 3D modeling program that can export in .FBX.
As for textures... I use GIMP. It's fairly robust, and I no longer have a copy of Photoshop. While there are certainly things Photoshop can do that GIMP can't...I've found them to be pretty irrelevant.

You see these are the things we need to pool and link to - all the software and engines used so we have a standard version and can freely work back and forth.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Scendera on September 04, 2014, 02:42:29 PM
Personally, If people want to learn Unreal Engine 4...Go and buy it. Drop 20 bucks, then cancel your sub. I encourage people learning this stuff. It's a lot of fun, and you learn a lot about how/why certain things are they way they are in games.

That was my thought.

As mentioned before, I'm part of a small (2 person) studio that had 2 separate projects going. The other person bought a license for her project, but at the time I figured since I'd be scoring it, and working on my own project under a different toolkit as well, I wouldn't bother because it was just extra expense and wasted time on something I'm tenuous on at best. But between the fact it COULD be useful to have a second set of hands and eyes, and a second brain working on problems, AND maybe potentially help for this? I just might.

It's cheap enough not to be a big deal if I buy it and just can't grok.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 03:06:27 PM
Irish_Girl:  Will APR have any type of Beta test schedule planed?  For what its worth, you got my support!

The support is appreciated! Unfortunately, I couldn't even hazard as a guess at a release schedule yet.
I think I can pretty comfortably say it would prolly be before 2020. Yeah... Almost definitely before 2020.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ooglymoogly on September 04, 2014, 03:07:32 PM
Assets like models, and textures have to be built in 3rd party programs such as 3DS Max, and Photoshop. Blender's a good free alternative to Max. I don't use it myself, but I've seen good things built with it. Really, you can use any 3D modeling program that can export in .FBX.
As for textures... I use GIMP. It's fairly robust, and I no longer have a copy of Photoshop. While there are certainly things Photoshop can do that GIMP can't...I've found them to be pretty irrelevant.

any thought of putting together a kickstarter, or similar effort, to raise money for this project? seems a rather prodigious amount of work and some additional assistance with tools, people, project management, etc would likely help.

Between MWM, H&V, APR, Valiance, and CoH revival/binary, this group has almost created the game version of marvel's movie universe...

Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 03:07:59 PM
You see these are the things we need to pool and link to - all the software and engines used so we have a standard version and can freely work back and forth.

APR's site is in some serious dis-repair atm. I'll be seeing about dealing with that first thing after the move.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 03:13:28 PM
any thought of putting together a kickstarter, or similar effort, to raise money for this project? seems a rather prodigious amount of work and some additional assistance with tools, people, project management, etc would likely help.

Between MWM, H&V, APR, Valiance, and CoH revival/binary, this group has almost created the game version of marvel's movie universe...
Do you mean a kickstarter for buying the I.P., or for funding Revival?

On Revival's side... I honestly haven't given much thought to stuff like that until very recently. Only with the legitimacy that having a license to use the I.P. would bring would allow me to do stuff like run a Kickstarer. I haven't really needed it up until this point anyways, since it's something I'd been doing solo. Not like I had to pay myself for my work!

As far as the rest goes...from what I understand Valiance Online, and Heroes and Villains have both turned down the offers of inclusion into the CoH-verse.
That would just leave Revival, City of Titans, and Legacy City of Heroes under the banner.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 04, 2014, 03:16:40 PM
3a.  Without the source code, are we crippled in terms of adding or altering content?  Not necessarily.  The game content was not explicitly "programmed" into the game engine, it resided in database files that its no secret people have been decoding and reverse engineering since the days of Iakona (and me, and Codewalker, and lots of others).  It is possible, if difficult, to add things like power sets to the game without the explicit source code.  It might require some hacks to make work, but nothing outside the wheelhouse of, say, Icon's developers.  When Codewalker threatens to keep nerfing regen in I24, that's not just possible, but way too easy for him.  Without the appropriate dev tools, some things would be a lot harder than others - like say making those damn escort critters actually follow your ass correctly - but nothing's impossible, even without source.  Difficult, possibly prohibitively so in some cases, but anything that only involves data (geography, entity definitions, power definitions, basic mission design) is probably at least somewhat modifiable without source.
That's good to hear.   You never know what can happen if something is possible.  The desire for I24 might be strong enough to make the possible a reality.
Quote
Also, Windows 8 sucks.  Even Microsoft is backpedaling from it faster than a bear with an umbrella at the circus.
My gf certainly hates it with a passion.  She rarely gets angry...but Win 8 does the trick.
Quote
11.  Pherdnut: I spent over six months getting to about 70% awareness of how the animation system worked and how it interacted with the combat engine when the game was still alive, circa 2007ish.  At that time, I probably knew the details as well as anyone.  It almost melted my brain.  Every other question I asked BaB was "Why?  Why?  WHY???"  And he'd just shrug.  The game implementation is like that, only more of your brain leaks out of your ears.  That's why Codewalker is the only player I fear.  He likes it.  That's Cthulhu kinds of wrong.
There must be some difference between this and the "source code", right?    Because my mind is not understanding how CoH had such a messy mess that seems to have been created especially for it....but then it may be being used in other NCSoft games?    I'm not quite understanding the process that would allow for the mess to happen in the first place...I understand even less that the company would then use that mess for other games.   The one benefit to "the mess" in my mind was that it would be useless to NCSoft because it couldn't be used for other games...now I'm hearing the opposite.   Or I think that's what I'm hearing...that can't be right, can it?

Also...this makes me want to team with Codewalker.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 03:17:19 PM
The support is appreciated! Unfortunately, I couldn't even hazard as a guess at a release schedule yet.
I think I can pretty comfortably say it would prolly be before 2020. Yeah... Almost definitely before 2020.

I kinda get the impression that some folks think CoH1.5 won't be too difficult to do, when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Whilst it IS in effect, just copying the existing game, it STILL has to be written from scratch! All the assets must be re-created (zone maps, mission maps, objects, textures, animations), the UI written, the power mechanisms design, the mission system done, the chat system, enhancements, inventions, IO's, -everything-.  The only slightly easier thing it's got going for it is that we know the numbers for the powersets.

It's every bit as big a job as the successor projects, and will be MUCH more prone to criticism as it's meant to be replicating CoH.

It's not impossible, but it's absolutely NOT an easy job, by any shake of the imagination. Don't expecting it to launch with Windows 9 (which is the initial impression I got from Nate's post, and I'm sure others thought that too).

Irish_Girl has a HUGE job here, and I wish her all the best for it, but it's not gonna be quick.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: ooglymoogly on September 04, 2014, 03:18:41 PM
I meant a kickstarter for Revival - the IP bit is obviously well underway. I don't think now would be the appropriate time to launch it given everything you seem to have on your plate, not to mention the IP deal with NCSoft isn't finalized. However, were that to come to fruition, it might help you create a solid entity to concentrate efforts on and around the migration to 1.5. and with the number of people involved here and 'watching' the process you have the start of a solid base of potential funders.

just a thought
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 03:22:56 PM
There must be some difference between this and the "source code", right?    Because my mind is not understanding how CoH had such a messy mess that seems to have been created especially for it....but then it may be being used in other NCSoft games?    I'm not quite understanding the process that would allow for the mess to happen in the first place...I understand even less that the company would then use that mess for other games.   The one benefit to "the mess" in my mind was that it would be useless to NCSoft because it couldn't be used for other games...now I'm hearing the opposite.   Or I think that's what I'm hearing...that can't be right, can it?

The main issue with any "code reuse" isn't actually going to be code reuse as such.. It's pretty unlikely any of the game code in CoH lives on in other NCSoft games as it's the only product Cryptic wrote under NCSoft's publishing banner.

What WILL be a problem though, is any code that talks to NCSoft's accounts systems.  This is stuff like the login authentication, store access, content gated behind being a subscriber...  They're not going to want anyone to see that, and they're probably not going to want the bother of digging it out of the CoH codebase to remove it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 04, 2014, 03:28:08 PM
I see this a little differently, I see that a LOT of work is going to have to be done to get any of these games working. Anything we can add to the mix means less work for whatever one of these things makes it into production. I do see a possibility that we have 4 failed games and the Original chugging along alone.

However since WE are making things - not NCSoft if one part fails we can hand the work over to a remaining part.

That's the spirit!  My point exactly.  We're all working on a volunteer basis anyway, from APR to CoT.  Worst case scenario and CoT winds up with more UE4 contributions if they like them and can ever make use of them.  We all just want our world back again in whatever form it has to take.  They're probably the most likely to bring a successor project to completion anyway, what with the kickstarter funding they've had. 

It's for this reason, though, that I think MWM should definitely not make any changes at all to the current CoT world or lore (not that they have, I'm sure they haven't) until such time as a doable deal ever becomes signed and sealed.  And if it's too late at that point for MWM to revamp and redo CoT (as Heroes and Villains has said at this point it already is for them) then the IP can still stand strong for i23 CoX, APR/CoX1.5 and a CoX2 (unless APR spins off and adds so much it becomes CoX2).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Ironwolf on September 04, 2014, 03:29:54 PM
I kinda get the impression that some folks think CoH1.5 won't be too difficult to do, when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Whilst it IS in effect, just copying the existing game, it STILL has to be written from scratch! All the assets must be re-created (zone maps, mission maps, objects, textures, animations), the UI written, the power mechanisms design, the mission system done, the chat system, enhancements, inventions, IO's, -everything-.  The only slightly easier thing it's got going for it is that we know the numbers for the powersets.

It's every bit as big a job as the successor projects, and will be MUCH more prone to criticism as it's meant to be replicating CoH.

It's not impossible, but it's absolutely NOT an easy job, by any shake of the imagination. Don't expecting it to launch with Windows 9 (which is the initial impression I got from Nate's post, and I'm sure others thought that too).

Irish_Girl has a HUGE job here, and I wish her all the best for it, but it's not gonna be quick.

Yes and no, all of the existing missions and lore are there already written for 1.5 to start. The port over is not easy - but it is easier than creating new worlds completely. The other side of it is to start off you don't need new content - you just need everything back in place under the new engine and with the new graphics so that you can start new development.

I would not expect to see new stuff on opening day - just having all the old stuff back up and running in UR4 would be awesome.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 03:33:45 PM
I kinda get the impression that some folks think CoH1.5 won't be too difficult to do, when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Whilst it IS in effect, just copying the existing game, it STILL has to be written from scratch! All the assets must be re-created (zone maps, mission maps, objects, textures, animations), the UI written, the power mechanisms design, the mission system done, the chat system, enhancements, inventions, IO's, -everything-.  The only slightly easier thing it's got going for it is that we know the numbers for the powersets.
It's every bit as big a job as the successor projects, and will be MUCH more prone to criticism as it's meant to be replicating CoH.
It's not impossible, but it's absolutely NOT an easy job, by any shake of the imagination. Don't expecting it to launch with Windows 9 (which is the initial impression I got from Nate's post, and I'm sure others thought that too).
Irish_Girl has a HUGE job here, and I wish her all the best for it, but it's not gonna be quick.

Also keeping in mind the fact that a lot of objects from CoH have aged very poorly. My intent is to raise the bar for CoH's graphic fidelity. So a lot of asset's and especially textures have to be re-created from scratch, or quite heavily modified from the original.
Because of the fairly recent Revamp of the zone, Atlas Park has a benefit that most everything in the zone is only a couple years old. So not as much work needs to be done there. Praetoria will also share that silver lining.

As for the time consumption from the coding aspect... This is a huge reason why the agreement is in place between Revival and MWM to build off of City of Titan's code base. So...say...Instead of having to build a character system from the ground up, we'll instead be modifying one to fit Revival's needs. Seems to make more sense than having 2 teams building near identical code from scratch.

It is quite a large job, which is why I'm hoping to recruit some hopefully talented people to work on it with me. Don't expect it to be done quick, or to be in beta next month just because "It's just coh".

Also, I should have FloatingFatMan be my PR whenever I want people to think my work is REALLY hard.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 03:37:38 PM
Yes and no, all of the existing missions and lore are their already written for 1.5 to start. The prot over is not easy - but it is easier than creating new worlds completely. The other side of it is to start off you don't need new content - you just need everything back in place under the new engine and with the new graphics so that you can start new development.

I would not expect to see new stuff on opening day - just having all the old stuff back up and running in UR4 would be awesome.

Sure, we have the existing content to re-use, but I'd be surprised if it was in any kind of portable form... Also, having the content to plug into the new game is one thing, but first you must write the parts of the game to plug it in to...  This will, of course, be made easier by using UE4's "mission engine" (or whatever they call it for serving maps etc), but it's still not a quick job.

Essentially, we're writing CoH completely from scratch. The story content is only a tiny part of that job.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 03:38:14 PM
Yes and no, all of the existing missions and lore are there already written for 1.5 to start. The port over is not easy - but it is easier than creating new worlds completely. The other side of it is to start off you don't need new content - you just need everything back in place under the new engine and with the new graphics so that you can start new development.

I would not expect to see new stuff on opening day - just having all the old stuff back up and running in UR4 would be awesome.

It's a benefit and a curse. On the one hand, it's A LOT of time saved. We're not having to design a new world, and write all the stories. They already exist.

On the other hand... People know what the world is, and how things look. They've got a certain expectation of how things are.
I fully expect the first couple weeks of Revival's beta to be a FLOOD of bug reports that basically read "This sign post is supposed to be 4 further down the road. And the color of the sky isn't quite blue enough."
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 04, 2014, 03:40:21 PM
Also keeping in mind the fact that a lot of objects from CoH have aged very poorly. My intent is to raise the bar for CoH's graphic fidelity. So a lot of asset's and especially textures have to be re-created from scratch, or quite heavily modified from the original.
Because of the fairly recent Revamp of the zone, Atlas Park has a benefit that most everything in the zone is only a couple years old. So not as much work needs to be done there. Praetoria will also share that silver lining.

As for the time consumption from the coding aspect... This is a huge reason why the agreement is in place between Revival and MWM to build off of City of Titan's code base. So...say...Instead of having to build a character system from the ground up, we'll instead be modifying one to fit Revival's needs. Seems to make more sense than having 2 teams building near identical code from scratch.

It is quite a large job, which is why I'm hoping to recruit some hopefully talented people to work on it with me. Don't expect it to be done quick, or to be in beta next month just because "It's just coh".

Also, I should have FloatingFatMan be my PR whenever I want people to think my work is REALLY hard.

I think one of the biggest challenge you may face will be base building. I remember asking why can't we get the stuff in Pocket D into our base (pool table, the Jack Daniel bottles, etc) and WarBase, a veteran basemaker said he asked Matt Miller the same question the response was the code left behind from the old dev team (Jack's) was so integrated with the system, you move one thing, it breaks another. Don't know if you are going to run into that problem or even planned  to do base making yet.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 03:41:21 PM
Also, I should have FloatingFatMan be my PR whenever I want people to think my work is REALLY hard.

Heh, I probably see it a bit clearer than many because I'm a programmer by trade, have been for over 20 years.  I don't write games, but I DO write huge, complicated application software.  Right now we're working on porting all our legacy VB6 code over to C#.  This is going to take us at LEAST 2 years, just to get back to the current status quo...  And this is just a sales/invoicing/production system...
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 04, 2014, 03:41:39 PM
I have found this to be true with most any form of production. I've done a little bit of coding, web design, audio production, and video production over the years and I find that very often while using/listening/watching some piece of content I often wonder how it was made, and how I would do it if I had to re-create it.
Must work the same for every industry.   My poor brother is not fond of pizza because he used to work at a pizza place in high school.

And I listen to music differently than most people.   I'll notice a cool hi-hat part or bass line while other people only seem to hear the lead vocal.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Surelle on September 04, 2014, 03:43:22 PM
On the subject of voice work... I'm not currently planning on adding Voice work to Revival. That's not to say it's never going to happen, ever. But if it did...It would be around like...the 4th or 5th issue at the earliest.

...I'd have to spend at least that long finding the right voices for the characters.

(How's your moving going?  What am I asking-- moving is always a major pain in the butt!  You poor thing, you should take a vacation once you're done....)

And as far as any voiceovers in APR go, I don't know that it'd be worth it in the end.  Do you know how Hellgate:  London's developers Flagship Studios, funded with mega millions and headed by former Blizzard folk, went down in a burning ball of flame?  They tried to do too much and make their game everything to everybody, nothing ever got finished, eventually they had to launch anyway and it all fell apart.

Just think about the work ahead for APR:  Trying to get all the zones, every NPC, every quest, every class and subclass and power set and costume piece and body shape in from Praetoria, the Rogue Isles and Paragon City.....  This took what, over 100 people at many points probably over a decade of full-time work (and probably longer days) to bring CoX to Issue 23?  Granted they were down to 15 people left I think when Cryptic split, but they were a lot larger than anything we've got going here for most of that decade and as Paragon Studios.  I'm not saying it won't ever get done (and I'm not saying it ever will either), but they had a lot more experience than most of us do here, and adding unnecessary extra burdens like voiceovers that may only rapidly become player annoyances down the road anyway seems detrimental.

Oh, and while I am trying to find my place in this potential APR outfit whether it winds up being eventual digital security, or menial, basic, repetitive tasking (copying missions over?) or what have you, I'd just like to ask:  Do we get our assets for Blender transitioning from the torrent download?  Let me dig around and try to find it.  NCSoft so nicely deleted CoX out of my NC Launcher and off my computer without my knowledge or consent right after the shutdown.  Will the Icon download help?  I had that on my PC after the shutdown but just reformatted earlier this week.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 03:45:04 PM
Must work the same for every industry.   My poor brother is not fond of pizza because he used to work at a pizza place in high school.

And I listen to music differently than most people.   I'll notice a cool hi-hat part or bass line while other people only seem to hear the lead vocal.

The one exception I've found to this is a friend from high school. He worked at KFC for 3 and a half years...and he still LOVES KFC.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
THANK YOU ONE AND ALL!!!
     Amen to that.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 04, 2014, 03:51:20 PM
It's a benefit and a curse. On the one hand, it's A LOT of time saved. We're not having to design a new world, and write all the stories. They already exist.

On the other hand... People know what the world is, and how things look. They've got a certain expectation of how things are.
I fully expect the first couple weeks of Revival's beta to be a FLOOD of bug reports that basically read "This sign post is supposed to be 4 further down the road. And the color of the sky isn't quite blue enough."

and the sun never DID move east to west or the moon for that matter.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 03:51:36 PM
I think one of the biggest challenge you may face will be base building. I remember asking why can't we get the stuff in Pocket D into our base (pool table, the Jack Daniel bottles, etc) and WarBase, a veteran basemaker said he asked Matt Miller the same question the response was the code left behind from the old dev team (Jack's) was so integrated with the system, you move one thing, it breaks another. Don't know if you are going to run into that problem or even planned  to do base making yet.

I loved the base system. I loved seeing what players had built, I loved building myself... It was an amazing addition to CoH.

We're very unlikely to have the same kind of issues that they faced working on the Base system, as we'll be a little more mindful when building it in the first place. Also, I'll flay any programmer that doesn't comment their code.

Bases are a planned feature, one that I'm looking forward to. I can say that I want to drastically increase how much stuff you guys have available to place in bases, and the kinds of things you can do in a base. I also love Base Raiding. So, it's safe to expect to see it.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 03:53:14 PM
Heh, I probably see it a bit clearer than many because I'm a programmer by trade, have been for over 20 years.  I don't write games, but I DO write huge, complicated application software.  Right now we're working on porting all our legacy VB6 code over to C#.  This is going to take us at LEAST 2 years, just to get back to the current status quo...  And this is just a sales/invoicing/production system...

-whistles- That certainly....does not sound like fun. I do not evny you your job, Sir.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 04, 2014, 03:54:13 PM
Bases are a planned feature, one that I'm looking forward to. I can say that I want to drastically increase how much stuff you guys have available to place in bases, and the kinds of things you can do in a base. I also love Base Raiding. So, it's safe to expect to see it.

Oh my that makes me happy. I can probably now complete making my "City Base" (could do that before because of the number limitation) with a Buffalo Wild Wings in it too xD
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 04, 2014, 03:54:39 PM
The main issue with any "code reuse" isn't actually going to be code reuse as such.. It's pretty unlikely any of the game code in CoH lives on in other NCSoft games as it's the only product Cryptic wrote under NCSoft's publishing banner.

What WILL be a problem though, is any code that talks to NCSoft's accounts systems.  This is stuff like the login authentication, store access, content gated behind being a subscriber...  They're not going to want anyone to see that, and they're probably not going to want the bother of digging it out of the CoH codebase to remove it.
Ok, that makes sense.   Thanks FFM.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Codewalker on September 04, 2014, 03:54:49 PM
Because my mind is not understanding how CoH had such a messy mess that seems to have been created especially for it....but then it may be being used in other NCSoft games?    I'm not quite understanding the process that would allow for the mess to happen in the first place...I understand even less that the company would then use that mess for other games.   The one benefit to "the mess" in my mind was that it would be useless to NCSoft because it couldn't be used for other games...now I'm hearing the opposite.   Or I think that's what I'm hearing...that can't be right, can it?

The whole code reuse thing is pure speculation that people are throwing out there as a possibility.

The one instance of code reuse that I think is likely is in the authentication code. I know for a fact that COH uses a modified version of the Lineage II authentication protocol to log in, so it's likely that component is built off of NCSoft's code rather than Cryptic's.

Beyond that, I doubt it. I think it's very unlikely that anyone currently working for NCSoft has even looked at the code, much less has any idea how it works. That's quite possibly part of the problem.

In order to offer it as part of the deal, they'd have to get experienced programmers to pick it apart and make a list of issues for the lawyers to vet. Things like proprietary info specific to NCSoft's server environment, commercial code licensed from third parties that needs to be accounted for, etc. Off the top of my head it's apparent from disassembling the binary that quite a few libraries are statically linked, an audit of those would need to be done to determine if they are allowed to redistribute them / transfer the license and under what conditions. They would also need to remove any pieces that can't be transferred, which would likely leave it in an unbuildable (though not necessarily unsalvagable) state. Things get murky if there are any instances of third-party code copied into the main source, and from what I hear the COH programmers looooved CTRL+C/CTRL+V.

Given that they don't have anyone on staff experienced with the code (and we can assume from dev statements that it's not well documented), that's a very big project, and it would take quite a lucrative offer to make it worth the cost of undertaking.

Alternatively, it could just be that parting with source code they own is something that they simply Do Not Do, Under Any Circumstance. It's not an uncommon attitude in the corporate software world. NCSoft has licensed binaries to people before -- several of their games in the European market are operated by third parties -- but they don't get access to the source and are dependent on NCSoft for patches and updates. As far as I know, they have never sold or licensed source code to anyone.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: hopelives on September 04, 2014, 03:55:29 PM
and the sun never DID move east to west or the moon for that matter.

  ah yes..can that be fixed ? lol, j/king ;)
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 03:58:00 PM
Personally, I think the original CoH base system is one thing you should NOT try to replicate. It was ugly as sin and made it a right chore to get anything decent looking.

You can do better, loads better. :p  Personally.. I kinda like how they do it in DCUO.  Just a collection of big empty rooms you can decorate how you like. Just don't gate the furnishings behind drops and let the users buy additional rooms to add on to it (including multiple levels).
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 04, 2014, 04:00:28 PM
It's a benefit and a curse. On the one hand, it's A LOT of time saved. We're not having to design a new world, and write all the stories. They already exist.

On the other hand... People know what the world is, and how things look. They've got a certain expectation of how things are.
I fully expect the first couple weeks of Revival's beta to be a FLOOD of bug reports that basically read "This sign post is supposed to be 4 further down the road. And the color of the sky isn't quite blue enough."
Hmmm....I'm kind of expecting and dare I say...looking forward to little changes like that.   Heck...even fairly big changes to how some things look wouldn't bother me.   Kinda like the different Captain America costumes in the three movies he's in....they all work for me.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 04:02:03 PM
(How's your moving going?  What am I asking-- moving is always a major pain in the butt!  You poor thing, you should take a vacation once you're done....)

And as far as any voiceovers in APR go, I don't know that it'd be worth it in the end.  Do you know how Hellgate:  London's developers Flagship Studios, funded with mega millions and headed by former Blizzard folk, went down in a burning ball of flame?  They tried to do too much and make their game everything to everybody, nothing ever got finished, eventually they had to launch anyway and it all fell apart.

Just think about the work ahead for APR:  Trying to get all the zones, every NPC, every quest, every class and subclass and power set and costume piece and body shape in from Praetoria, the Rogue Isles and Paragon City.....  This took what, over 100 people at many points probably over a decade of full-time work (and probably longer days) to bring CoX to Issue 23?  Granted they were down to 15 people left I think when Cryptic split, but they were a lot larger than anything we've got going here for most of that decade and as Paragon Studios.  I'm not saying it won't ever get done (and I'm not saying it ever will either), but they had a lot more experience than most of us do here, and adding unnecessary extra burdens like voiceovers that may only rapidly become player annoyances down the road anyway seems detrimental.

Oh, and while I am trying to find my place in this potential APR outfit whether it winds up being eventual digital security, or menial, basic, repetitive tasking (copying missions over?) or what have you, I'd just like to ask:  Do we get our assets for Blender transitioning from the torrent download?  Let me dig around and try to find it.  NCSoft so nicely deleted CoX out of my NC Launcher and off my computer without my knowledge or consent right after the shutdown.  Will the Icon download help?  I had that on my PC after the shutdown but just reformatted earlier this week.

Well... So far... I've spent far too much time answering questions, and not enough packing! Ack! I'm not good at slowly working up to a move, lol.

I agree on the subject of voice overs. Especially when the same time and effort could instead be spent giving player's the ability to ride a Motorcycle, or add in new zones, new TFs. What about a Praetorian Seer Epic AT? More base items?

As for the torrent... It should just be the CoH client with ICON tossed in. Which is what I use to get my rips from, yes. There's a certain amount of setting up to get them however. Which is something I'll sit down and document later.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 04:03:40 PM
and the sun never DID move east to west or the moon for that matter.

Coincidentally... Revival's sun also doesn't currently move east to west. It's moving NW to SE If memory serves.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: pinballdave on September 04, 2014, 04:04:21 PM
Well... So far... I've spent far too much time answering questions, and not enough packing! Ack! I'm not good at slowly working up to a move, lol.

I agree on the subject of voice overs. Especially when the same time and effort could instead be spent giving player's the ability to ride a Motorcycle, or add in new zones, new TFs. What about a Praetorian Seer Epic AT? More base items?

As for the torrent... It should just be the CoH client with ICON tossed in. Which is what I use to get my rips from, yes. There's a certain amount of setting up to get them however. Which is something I'll sit down and document later.

Don't you mean ride on nemesis steam ponies?
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 04:04:50 PM
Coincidentally... Revival's sun also doesn't currently move east to west. It's moving NW to SE If memory serves.

You're gonna fix that, right? ;)

... AFTER you've finished your packing, though!
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: MM3squints on September 04, 2014, 04:09:01 PM
Personally, I think the original CoH base system is one thing you should NOT try to replicate. It was ugly as sin and made it a right chore to get anything decent looking.

You can do better, loads better. :p  Personally.. I kinda like how they do it in DCUO.  Just a collection of big empty rooms you can decorate how you like. Just don't gate the furnishings behind drops and let the users buy additional rooms to add on to it (including multiple levels).

Its not ugly if you stack stuff :D. I liked it because you had the ability to stack items and make completely new and imaginative rooms. I seen stuff where people made penthouse, Pokemon Hospitals that look like a the real thing, I even recreated the USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) with complete flight deck and the illusion you are going downstairs to see the reactor room. DCUO base making doesn't offer stacking
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 04:10:12 PM
Hmmm....I'm kind of expecting and dare I say...looking forward to little changes like that.   Heck...even fairly big changes to how some things look wouldn't bother me.   Kinda like the different Captain America costumes in the three movies he's in....they all work for me.
Don't expect Revival to be an exact Carbon copy of City of Heroes. Obviously, It would be madly impractical for the team to ensure that every little thing like sign posts are pixel perfectly placed.
There might be other changes to. Like..You ever notice how there's no real hospital in the city? Those little medical clinics are fine for Medivacing a bruised up Her...but how many civilians do you think have their babies there?

There's not going to be grand sweeping changes like the AP Revamp, or the DA makeover. But do expect to see some stuff here and there.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Harpospoke on September 04, 2014, 04:11:26 PM
The whole code reuse thing is pure speculation that people are throwing out there as a possibility.

The one instance of code reuse that I think is likely is in the authentication code. I know for a fact that COH uses a modified version of the Lineage II authentication protocol to log in, so it's likely that component is built off of NCSoft's code rather than Cryptic's.

Beyond that, I doubt it. I think it's very unlikely that anyone currently working for NCSoft has even looked at the code, much less has any idea how it works. That's quite possibly part of the problem.

In order to offer it as part of the deal, they'd have to get experienced programmers to pick it apart and make a list of issues for the lawyers to vet. Things like proprietary info specific to NCSoft's server environment, commercial code licensed from third parties that needs to be accounted for, etc. Off the top of my head it's apparent from disassembling the binary that quite a few libraries are statically linked, an audit of those would need to be done to determine if they are allowed to redistribute them / transfer the license and under what conditions. They would also need to remove any pieces that can't be transferred, which would likely leave it in an unbuildable (though not necessarily unsalvagable) state. Things get murky if there are any instances of third-party code copied into the main source, and from what I hear the COH programmers looooved CTRL+C/CTRL+V.

Given that they don't have anyone on staff experienced with the code (and we can assume from dev statements that it's not well documented), that's a very big project, and it would take quite a lucrative offer to make it worth the cost of undertaking.

Alternatively, it could just be that parting with source code they own is something that they simply Do Not Do, Under Any Circumstance. It's not an uncommon attitude in the corporate software world. NCSoft has licensed binaries to people before -- several of their games in the European market are operated by third parties -- but they don't get access to the source and are dependent on NCSoft for patches and updates. As far as I know, they have never sold or licensed source code to anyone.
Thanks to you as well, CW.

If I can sum up the first possibility:

Yes the CoH code is a mess that no other game has any use for.
But mixed in with that mess are some things that NCSoft uses for other games and they (understandably) don't want to hand those little bits out to people.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 04:15:05 PM
Don't you mean ride on nemesis steam ponies?
Yes. Yes, I do.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: Cailyn Alaynn on September 04, 2014, 04:16:16 PM
You're gonna fix that, right? ;)

... AFTER you've finished your packing, though!

It's just something I haven't bothered to get around to. It's a simple matter of changing the Rotation value of the blueprint that drives the day/night cycle. ;P That's a fix for lackeys.
Title: Re: And the mask comes off.
Post by: FloatingFatMan on September 04, 2014, 04:17:00 PM