Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749446 times)

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5580 on: April 24, 2015, 02:06:04 AM »
AE wasnt generating any more inf than the same time played doing other things. so it didnt really make a difference. Increasing the drop rates of purple in the real world would have encouraged people to spend more time in the rest of the game and dropped the prices at the same time. they were high because for many, purples just didnt drop. some people got them on a daily basis and others went months without a drop. if you cant reasonable expect a drop of what you need, you have to grind the cash to buy it. the merits gave people a doable way of getting good stuff. it was a step in the right direction.

You have clearly never seen some of the worst farms out there.  The sheer influence made was insanity at the worst times and when the exploits were in full force you had HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF INFLUENCE IN MINUTES.  But even with the fixes it was very easy to just get dozens of guys and melt them in seconds, the other farms you still had to run from group to group or try to gather them all up and that took time, the AE farms that time was eliminated and hugely increased the speed at which influence could be gained.

When you consider how much influence you got vs the "drop rate" from tickets, there was a huge inflation issue there.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5581 on: April 24, 2015, 02:09:38 AM »
I'd be ok with that. The influence i got from farming AE to get my salvage was laughably negligible compared to what i could make in a fraction of the time marketeering. I usually had the inf to buy the salvage, i just refused on principle to pay the amount rare salvage was going for when i could get it so easily in ae.

Probably cause the amount of influence already in the market by the time the fixes came had inflated the prices to insane enough levels that they'd remain insanely high.  For about a month or two we had a game where you had hundreds of influence/hour being earned in AE, so by the time the fixes came it was to late.

You still earned way more influence in AE than in actual missions chosen for farming though, due to the lack of any travel time between mobs.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5582 on: April 24, 2015, 03:57:00 AM »
You have clearly never seen some of the worst farms out there.  The sheer influence made was insanity at the worst times and when the exploits were in full force you had HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF INFLUENCE IN MINUTES.  But even with the fixes it was very easy to just get dozens of guys and melt them in seconds, the other farms you still had to run from group to group or try to gather them all up and that took time, the AE farms that time was eliminated and hugely increased the speed at which influence could be gained.

When you consider how much influence you got vs the "drop rate" from tickets, there was a huge inflation issue there.

I don't think any exploit in the AE specifically allowed hundreds of millions of inf in a timespan of minutes that managed to escape beta.  Millions per minute is I think about as high as it would go per player.

Also, for every player willing to spend that much time earning influence in the AE, there were probably lots of others that probably earn the same amount of influence in a lot less time through market activities.  I know I could.  And many activities that also count as "farming" have significant influence sinks associated with them.  For example, if you were farming enhancements or PvPIOs, you generally needed somewhere to store them.  The best place was base storage - lots and lots of base storage.  I had four bases literally as full as possible with stuff, with a fifth being worked on at shutdown.  Between functionality and silly cosmetics, its possible I converted thirty billion inf or more into prestige just to accommodate all that base building alone.

Its not entirely clear to me that the net sum of all activities that could be described as "farming" were a huge influence generator.  There were a lot of very large influence sinks in the game as well in the top of the food chain.  In fact, there was a natural negative feedback loop where influence farmers were willing to spend more on stuff, so stuff-farmers farmed and sold more of it to satisfy demand, which is an influence-destroying process (due to the cut the markets took off the top).  The more influence that was in circulation, the less attractive influence farming appeared relative to other methods of getting rich (marketeering being the obvious choice since its relatively simple, takes no special set up, can be performed on any alt, and requires far less effort than AE farming).

Genuine runaway inflation should have pushed all reasonably valuable items up to near the market inf cap (2 billion).  Not only did that never happen, it never even got close.  "Peak purple" if you could call it that for the most expensive purples topped out around 500 million then dropped, probably due to the very effect mentioned above: those prices shifted incentive from farming for the influence to buy them to farming for the enhancements themselves to sell. Given the range of prices, I have often wondered if the markets were sending a soft-signal that the statistical value of those very valuable purples was somewhere between about 100 million and 500 million inf - that the relative effort required to earn that much inf was comparable to the amount of effort required to farm enough drops to get one of the higher value ones (at least at that time, before alternate means of acquiring them or substitutes appeared).

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5583 on: April 24, 2015, 04:14:11 AM »
I don't think any exploit in the AE specifically allowed hundreds of millions of inf in a timespan of minutes that managed to escape beta.  Millions per minute is I think about as high as it would go per player.

Also, for every player willing to spend that much time earning influence in the AE, there were probably lots of others that probably earn the same amount of influence in a lot less time through market activities.  I know I could.  And many activities that also count as "farming" have significant influence sinks associated with them.  For example, if you were farming enhancements or PvPIOs, you generally needed somewhere to store them.  The best place was base storage - lots and lots of base storage.  I had four bases literally as full as possible with stuff, with a fifth being worked on at shutdown.  Between functionality and silly cosmetics, its possible I converted thirty billion inf or more into prestige just to accommodate all that base building alone.

Its not entirely clear to me that the net sum of all activities that could be described as "farming" were a huge influence generator.  There were a lot of very large influence sinks in the game as well in the top of the food chain.  In fact, there was a natural negative feedback loop where influence farmers were willing to spend more on stuff, so stuff-farmers farmed and sold more of it to satisfy demand, which is an influence-destroying process (due to the cut the markets took off the top).  The more influence that was in circulation, the less attractive influence farming appeared relative to other methods of getting rich (marketeering being the obvious choice since its relatively simple, takes no special set up, can be performed on any alt, and requires far less effort than AE farming).

Genuine runaway inflation should have pushed all reasonably valuable items up to near the market inf cap (2 billion).  Not only did that never happen, it never even got close.  "Peak purple" if you could call it that for the most expensive purples topped out around 500 million then dropped, probably due to the very effect mentioned above: those prices shifted incentive from farming for the influence to buy them to farming for the enhancements themselves to sell. Given the range of prices, I have often wondered if the markets were sending a soft-signal that the statistical value of those very valuable purples was somewhere between about 100 million and 500 million inf - that the relative effort required to earn that much inf was comparable to the amount of effort required to farm enough drops to get one of the higher value ones (at least at that time, before alternate means of acquiring them or substitutes appeared).

I was referring to the overall total amounts of influence entering the market was obscene.  I recall getting 5-6 million influence in a span of a few minutes in an 8 man team.  When you had dozens of teams doing this you had way to much influence entering the market all at once.  People were buying things at whatever price they saw cause they could "just get more influence".  But I still saw people farm AE specifically for the influence/experience rates they provided, cause it also let them get tons and tons more prestige.  And it was still far faster in my experience than the normal farms(in the few moments I did anyhow).
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Talon Blue

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5584 on: April 24, 2015, 04:28:44 AM »
Someone, I cannot remember it who exactly... posted a thread in the old forums showcasing over 30 days how to effectively use the auction house, AE tickets, and reward merits to basically get 2 billion influence, meanwhile leveling to 50. I used that guide to similar results. There was that supergroup who generate all their prestige by burning influence from the auction house. Influence or really just all the in-game currency together totalled an good MMO game economy, IMO. Purple recipes were affordable with patience. Some PvP io's may have been over the influence cap, maybe... I never bought PvP io's. But there was never any inflation in CoX, ever.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 08:24:34 PM by Talon Blue »

Winter Fable

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5585 on: April 24, 2015, 05:21:32 AM »
I did not use the AE tickets to make money I used it for salvage and rolls for recipes so I could slot my toons.I never tried to make money.Maybe it was easier that way but any money I had was spent crafting or getting what I just could not get.A few weeks after AE started the prices on Numina's,Miracle,Luck of the Gambler even Kinetic Combat's were the cheapest I had ever seen them.I bought what I could not to make money but to slot.The same with the +3 def pvp io near the end you could get 1 for a few hundred million,before people would be on the forum or chat channel asking 2 billion or more.On the forum or in game people would say put a bid in wait don't buy it now but look how much time was lost waiting.I'm so glad I for merits and tickets.I knew the game could end at anytime and even with merits and tickets it would have been years and years before I would have been able to IO all the toons I had and all those I still wanted to make.I hope if we get the game back the options are still open to us.I'll still look for fun AE arcs there were some really good ones.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5586 on: April 24, 2015, 05:33:16 AM »
I was referring to the overall total amounts of influence entering the market was obscene.  I recall getting 5-6 million influence in a span of a few minutes in an 8 man team.  When you had dozens of teams doing this you had way to much influence entering the market all at once.  People were buying things at whatever price they saw cause they could "just get more influence".  But I still saw people farm AE specifically for the influence/experience rates they provided, cause it also let them get tons and tons more prestige.  And it was still far faster in my experience than the normal farms(in the few moments I did anyhow).

any game that has dailies has farms. dev created farms. so just about every game has issues with gold accumulation. if the devs had upped the drop rate on purples the prices would have dropped. by the time the game closed there were plenty of them around. there was really no need to keep them ultra rare. swtor has taken rare mania to a new low. anything decent in the game is ultra rare and anything bob the intern finger painted is common. There is no need for rampant exclusivity if you have enough content. at some point it becomes a turn off for new players. the single infected that spawned in the tram station in recluses victory was a big middle finger for badge collectors.

Vee

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5587 on: April 24, 2015, 06:39:50 AM »
Yeah let's not forget that CoH had the gold standard for MMO economies. Even the most casual player could purple/pvp a toon or 10 to the nines if they were just willing to learn how the market worked and spend a few minutes on it whenever they logged in. Barring that if they were patient enough they could do it with the various merit types. Plus all the best stuff was available in-game through normal play. No having to drop real money for random rolls hoping for the one shiny that was worth the big bucks. So sure, there was a lot of money out there and the sinks were limited, but in general the economy worked amazingly.

Sinistar

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5588 on: April 24, 2015, 07:13:37 AM »
When it came to IO's I always preferred L49's to L50 IO's.   

Same ingredients to craft a 49 or 50 IO, but a 49 is half the price of a 50 and with enhancement diversification, the difference between a 49 and 50 IO was negligible
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Solitaire

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5589 on: April 24, 2015, 07:18:01 AM »
I know some of us are hanging on by the finger nails, some taking everything in there stride, but with the City of Heroes Anniversary (2004) coming up next week (Not saying a date as there are mixed views on the release date  ;) )

I was wondering what the odds would be for any news on the purchase or comeback of CoH, ToHit next week... I can't express how much I miss the game, a day doesn't go by without something triggering a memory of something in the game, or thinking that could be a good idea for a name, what powers could I pick to go with the name!

Here's hoping the team are successful and we have our City & Isles back soon.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5590 on: April 24, 2015, 07:30:39 AM »
That'd be nice to.  To have an announcement come on the anniversary week would be pretty iconic.

I'm running out of ideas on play throughs for new vegas/tale of two wastelands.  I'm down to making a cyborg-cowgirl.  Yeah, it's that bad.  Granted I already managed to get her the brush gun, and got the perk to make it practical(only need one more perk or two to make it awesome), but i'm not sure.  It feels like a basic sniper.  If I 'aquired' an AM rifle on her i'm sure she'd be no different than my first play through of the game.

I almost logged onto DCUO this night but, I just couldn't bring myself to do it as it's kind of a game where there isn't much replayability with new toons at times.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Azrael

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5591 on: April 24, 2015, 01:24:50 PM »
Yeah let's not forget that CoH had the gold standard for MMO

It sure did.  In pretty much everything it did.

Azrael.

PS.  As to the whole idea of loot and the 'economy'?  I didn't think the game needed it.  As someone who played from Issue 3 I was quite happy with the game as it was pre-Ed.

Having said that...some twenty issues later I was lethargically getting into the idea of purples (yes, they could be gotten much cheaper by the end...shame they didn't up the drop rate earlier...as somethings were just unavailable...or cost an arm and a leg...  I wish I could have paid in Council body parts...), IOs...defence cap builds etc.  It created an order of magnitude difference to a 'Levelled 50.'

I look back now and think of a few alts I wished I'd gotten an alpha incarnate slot on...or IO'd out.  *(...a tank and a war shade comes to mind...)  I remember spending 4.5 billion on my elec Dominator and it still hadn't hit the defence cap! :P  But I finally got 'perma hasten' after the devs nerfed it all those years ago...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 01:33:26 PM by Azrael »

AlienOne

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5592 on: April 24, 2015, 03:26:36 PM »
Yeah let's not forget that CoH had the gold standard for MMO economies. Even the most casual player could purple/pvp a toon or 10 to the nines if they were just willing to learn how the market worked and spend a few minutes on it whenever they logged in. Barring that if they were patient enough they could do it with the various merit types. Plus all the best stuff was available in-game through normal play. No having to drop real money for random rolls hoping for the one shiny that was worth the big bucks. So sure, there was a lot of money out there and the sinks were limited, but in general the economy worked amazingly.

Absolutely agreed. I think there was something there economy-wise for the newbs AND the high rollers. This is not to mention that this was that rare MMO that had an innumerable amount of people willing to help you out to get what you needed. There were MANY people out there that I met that were just like, "Hey, I have this amazing enhancement I just got. I already have everything I need. Why don't you take it and sell it for a bit of influence to get you started out?"

I personally held costume and bio contests on Freedom that had large prize pools of influence and good enhancements like LotGs.

There wasn't a single person out there starting the game that could say that they had no chance of getting what they wanted in that economy.

It just worked.
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Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5593 on: April 24, 2015, 07:32:09 PM »
I was referring to the overall total amounts of influence entering the market was obscene.  I recall getting 5-6 million influence in a span of a few minutes in an 8 man team.  When you had dozens of teams doing this you had way to much influence entering the market all at once.  People were buying things at whatever price they saw cause they could "just get more influence".  But I still saw people farm AE specifically for the influence/experience rates they provided, cause it also let them get tons and tons more prestige.  And it was still far faster in my experience than the normal farms(in the few moments I did anyhow).

I'm not sure what "too much" means.  But what I can say objectively is that before I9 the vast majority of players were poor: relative to the cost of living (i.e. buying a reasonable set of level-appropriate SOs) they had far less influence than they need to achieve that goal.  After I9, the average player was or could trivially become rich: relative to the cost of the basics, it was easy to purchase all of those things and then some.  And the reason was both a longer ladder of commodities and a higher amount of influence in circulation.

Its important to realize that every single sale was a transfer of influence from one player to another.  And most sales of extremely high value were from players with lots of influence to players with less influence.  While its true that a few things became very expensive, the vast majority of things became cheap relative to the amount of influence in circulation.

Influence farmers did only three things with their influence.  They destroyed it (like by converting it into prestige).  This had no effect on the economy.  They kept it.  Sequestration also had no impact on the economy.  Or they spent it, and every time they spent it they were transferring that influence to other players.  If it could be demonstrated that the players benefiting from those transfers were an elite minority, then that would be bad.  But all evidence was that it was everyone that benefited.

What's more, as I keep repeating, there's absolutely no evidence that runaway inflation was occurring on the markets.  In fact price were relatively stable in the aggregate after the first year or so of the market.  Individual items would come in vogue and go out of vogue, causing prices to rise then fall, but for the most part what you paid for a Numina's in I11 was what you paid in I16.  So as influence spread throughout the player population, the net effect was for effective prices to drop - there were many instances of normalized deflation in the game.  Consider Crushing Impacts.  At one time, they were worthless.  Then they became the in-vogue thing to use for various builds (because of the recharge set bonus) and their prices skyrocketed, from hundreds of thousands to tens of millions per piece.  Then that wave passed and they dropped in price into the single digit millions.  All evidence shows their prices were affected almost solely by supply/demand pressures, and not by influence supply-driven inflation.

But more significantly and to my point is the fact that when they stabilized in the mid millions, that would still mean that getting a few sets would cost in the tens of millions of inf.  That's a level of inf that pre-I9 only the richest 1% of players were likely to have.  But in I17, say?  That level of influence was considered trivial for any player to reasonably get through basic, simple market activities (i.e. just sell stuff you get as drops).  That situation simply doesn't occur without strong liquidity in the markets, and that strong liquidity was buoyed in large part by players with lots of influence, however they got it.

In a world where everyone only makes influence and has to buy everything, the few players making a lot of influence hurt everyone else by making everything cost more.  But in a world where everyone is also a producer of items, the equation changes.  In simple economic terms, when you're a buyer you don't want rich people increasing prices.  When you're a seller, you do.  When you're both a buyer and a seller, the rich people help you when you're selling more than you're buying, and hurt you when you're buying more than selling.  This means, in net effect, rich players tend to help the poor through their activities, and only start to hurt them when they become rich enough to compete with the rich players for the most expensive stuff.

Its not as simple as eliminating influence farmers would make everything cheaper.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5594 on: April 24, 2015, 07:44:44 PM »
I know some of us are hanging on by the finger nails, some taking everything in there stride, but with the City of Heroes Anniversary (2004) coming up next week (Not saying a date as there are mixed views on the release date  ;) )

I was wondering what the odds would be for any news on the purchase or comeback of CoH, ToHit next week... I can't express how much I miss the game, a day doesn't go by without something triggering a memory of something in the game, or thinking that could be a good idea for a name, what powers could I pick to go with the name!

Here's hoping the team are successful and we have our City & Isles back soon.

Wouldn't that be so great? 

Personally, I wouldn't bet your paycheck on it though.  Just the fact that there are a few peeps on the forums here who know the code and server architecture as well as the devs did, and yet have not been asked for the slightest bit of help in getting anything going (a fact they have stated here on these boards recently), should tell you that there is still nothing to get going. 

Sorry, I haven't completely given up hope either, but after a year and a half since the start of the efforts, I'm way past holding my breath for a positive result *ever,* never mind right around the corner.

Twisted Toon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5595 on: April 24, 2015, 09:05:44 PM »
AE wasnt generating any more inf than the same time played doing other things. so it didnt really make a difference. Increasing the drop rates of purple in the real world would have encouraged people to spend more time in the rest of the game and dropped the prices at the same time. they were high because for many, purples just didnt drop. some people got them on a daily basis and others went months without a drop. if you cant reasonable expect a drop of what you need, you have to grind the cash to buy it. the merits gave people a doable way of getting good stuff. it was a step in the right direction.
I think I managed to acquire about 7 or 8 Purple IOs from drops through out the entire time I played the game. I could even use one of them too.
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ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5596 on: April 24, 2015, 10:23:46 PM »
I think I managed to acquire about 7 or 8 Purple IOs from drops through out the entire time I played the game. I could even use one of them too.

and some people doing the exact same content got that many a week. that was the problem.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5597 on: April 25, 2015, 02:00:58 AM »
Wouldn't that be so great? 

Personally, I wouldn't bet your paycheck on it though.  Just the fact that there are a few peeps on the forums here who know the code and server architecture as well as the devs did, and yet have not been asked for the slightest bit of help in getting anything going (a fact they have stated here on these boards recently), should tell you that there is still nothing to get going. 

Sorry, I haven't completely given up hope either, but after a year and a half since the start of the efforts, I'm way past holding my breath for a positive result *ever,* never mind right around the corner.

Is it bad that, the most entertaining thing in life at the moment is cyanide and happiness shorts and web comics while waiting for CoH to return?
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

HEATSTROKE

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5598 on: April 25, 2015, 02:50:17 AM »
 amazingly the game has been gone for two years and people and still going back and forth over AE.. The reality of the situation is that you could didnt need 2 billion influence to make a character.

There were multiple ways including farming and AE tickets to get what you wanted or needed. I did it all the time.. AE ticket rolls. Merit Rolls.. Hero/Villain Merits.. Buying things outright with Merits... Keep what you want.. sell the rest.. make influence..  I did it all..

Personally I could care less if someone else abused AE to get to level 50 in a few hours and walked out with millions of influence..

One thing I found out about the auction house was that I rarely had to pay top dollar for something.. I would often bid what I was willing to pay and just wait.. Keep playing the game having fun..and eventually I will win a bid or sell my items..


Sinistar

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5599 on: April 25, 2015, 03:15:20 AM »
amazingly the game has been gone for two years and people and still going back and forth over AE.. The reality of the situation is that you could didnt need 2 billion influence to make a character.

There were multiple ways including farming and AE tickets to get what you wanted or needed. I did it all the time.. AE ticket rolls. Merit Rolls.. Hero/Villain Merits.. Buying things outright with Merits... Keep what you want.. sell the rest.. make influence..  I did it all..

Personally I could care less if someone else abused AE to get to level 50 in a few hours and walked out with millions of influence..

One thing I found out about the auction house was that I rarely had to pay top dollar for something.. I would often bid what I was willing to pay and just wait.. Keep playing the game having fun..and eventually I will win a bid or sell my items..

Indeed, I did what you did all the time, bought and sold, reward merits, AE tickets, etc. to get what I needed. Plus after studying some of my L50 builds in MIDS and setting mids to show IO's at L49 instead of 50 and checking the minor changes in states like defense and recovery, I then equipped all future characters with L49 IO vs L50 since they were only half the inf needed.
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!