Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749208 times)

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3500 on: October 07, 2014, 06:25:01 PM »
Sounds more like a QoL/Warshade balancing issue, and less a fondness for Incarnate itself.
Unless I'm mis-reading and/or Space Drunk.
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Ironwolf

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3501 on: October 07, 2014, 06:25:55 PM »
The problem there is unless NCsoft gives the team source code access, and by some great boon they figure out a way to reasonably transplant CoH's scripting engine to UE4 (Therefore making it so a great deal of things don't actually have to be rewritten), it would be a massive undertaking almost on par with making an entirely new game.

Even IF they manage to transplant the script, it's going to be a lot of work.
Yes and no. We have ALL of the maps and costume parts now. This is what peple are working on first. If you have the entire game done graphically and then just need the gameplay side plugged in - it should be much easier. Having all the source code as a huge spaghetti mess would likely not be possible to port over to UR4 at least easily.

Gorvi Guile

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3502 on: October 07, 2014, 06:39:18 PM »
Sounds more like a QoL/Warshade balancing issue, and less a fondness for Incarnate itself.
Unless I'm mis-reading and/or Space Drunk.
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AlienOne

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3503 on: October 07, 2014, 07:02:22 PM »
Sounds more like a QoL/Warshade balancing issue, and less a fondness for Incarnate itself.
Unless I'm mis-reading and/or Space Drunk.

Well, I actually didn't mind some of the Incarnate Trials... I also liked some of the powers that I got with the Incarnate system. Some of the iTrials were "meh" imo, but others weren't bad at all. I mainly just liked the ability to slowly work my way towards various "extra powers" without having the level cap bumped and invalidating all the work I had already put into my Warshade (example: when level caps were bumped 10 levels in Diablo 3, it meant all work, time spent, and gear acquired to max out your level 60 character was completely useless. The equivalent of that in CoH would have been a level bump that invalidated all the sets I had acquired/worked towards)...

But, yes, it was certainly a QoL issue as well.
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Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3504 on: October 07, 2014, 07:59:57 PM »
Frankly, I'm not sure that sounds sustainable.

It isn't.  But I file that away under the category of "plans that would not survive contact with the enemy."  The devs had lots of ideas, but many of them reached the players far modified from their original conception for a number of reasons, practical limitations being the big one. 

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3505 on: October 07, 2014, 08:01:14 PM »
It wasn't, and was never really intended to be. If I'm remembering correctly (and this is to an extent an interpretation of things Posi's said.)
The plan was basically have the players beat the Bastion, then the True Rikit, then the Dimensionless...and then pull a Rikti War type doomsday and start CoH2.
At which point the players would have been cosmic level gods...which would be solved when they just killed all the everything. (Same excuse why there weren't any heroes when CoH started "They all died in the Rikti War.")

I suspect that falls under the category of "we'll cross that bridge when we blow it up."

MWRuger

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3506 on: October 07, 2014, 08:06:18 PM »
Picking up the reins off the floor, and dusting them off... I have to say the Incarnate system is giving me one of the biggest headaches.
I wish I could just nuke it from orbit and almost re-make the end game from scratch...

I don't see how you can do this and still call it a port of COH. I understand the temptation to tinker but I would wait until you have everything up through Issue 24 working as intended before deciding how you want to change it.
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sindyr

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3507 on: October 07, 2014, 08:38:12 PM »
There are two main threads, not sure which this question belongs in, but here goes:

Have chances improved at all for getting back specifically the Utopian "fix everything" Issue 24 version of CoX?

I would give a LOT to make that happen - and when I say a LOT, I mean open wallet, all my time, etc.

Been away for several weeks (months?) so not in the loop.

Dareon Kale

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3508 on: October 07, 2014, 08:53:51 PM »
There are two main threads, not sure which this question belongs in, but here goes:

Have chances improved at all for getting back specifically the Utopian "fix everything" Issue 24 version of CoX?

I would give a LOT to make that happen - and when I say a LOT, I mean open wallet, all my time, etc.

Been away for several weeks (months?) so not in the loop.

The only thing on the table is a server image from the day of shutdown which is I23. Unless something has changed, there is no way to acquire an I24 image because, as far as we know, it does not exist.

opprime2828

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Re: And the mask comes off
« Reply #3509 on: October 08, 2014, 12:08:25 AM »
I think the answer to that question is similar to the answer to the question "what was the end game for the entire game?"  The answer is: the devs didn't have an "end" to their end game plans.

"End game" as an MMO term is a bit of a misnomer in that its not about an "end."  The "end" in endgame refers to the point where conventional level-gating (cf: level cap) ends and content switches from being about getting through the next content gate and starts being about more open ended (if often grindy) development.

What I think was interesting about CoH's "end game" was that it wasn't, in spite of complaints to the contrary, focused purely on raiding.  The initial content was large scale raids, but that was because we didn't have any yet and this was when they were going to be introduced.  But the revamp of Dark Astoria suggested that the incarnate system was going to be a more seamless expansion of the standard content, with zone content, mission content, and task force content to complement the raid content. 

This ventures into a subject I spent a lot of time kicking around on the old forums: what constituted the "core" game and what constituted the "optional" game.  You could argue that the Incarnate system was evolving into Yet Another non-core gameplay mode.  The standard game was the conventional content-based (usually) leveling from 1 to 50, with the associated power and enhancement progression.  The incarnate system as a whole was developing from a raid niche to a more full-fledged game experience with a range of content driven by the core incarnate power system and the raids as a strong core component of progression.

Of course, many people who disliked raiding and disliked the incarnate progressional power system felt that time spent developing it was time diverted from the rest of the game, and player time spent on it diverted players from contributing to the rest of the game.  Both true statements, but also entirely in keeping with the philosophy I subscribed to and generally ascribed to the devs as "something for everyone, not everything for someone."  Part of acknowledging the fact that CoH allowed for diverse playstyles is that it often encouraged and spent valuable dev time on ones you might dislike yourself personally.  I think eventually the great irony of the Incarnate system is that the very players that were complaining about the fact that it was about nothing but raiding would eventually be complaining about the fact that there was all this other stuff happening in it they couldn't experience because they didn't want to participate in the incarnate system.

Optional isn't synonymous with undesirable.

 
This.
 
 
The one thing I kind of HOPED was going to happen was that the Devs would take their original approach to "end game content" which, in my opinion, were the HEAT and VEAT achetypes, and combine that with the Incarnate progression system with the Omega slot.  Really, to begin building an "end game" that was neither purely "grindy" nor simpy rolling a new kind of alt, they needed to try and work in the entire game.  A "hybrid" of the three approaches of "end game grind, new content, and rerunning earlier game content, if you will.
 
What do I mean?
 
Well, just as an example...
 
Imagine that the Incarnate/Well storyline, the Oroborous/Mender Silos storyline, the storyline hinted at in the side switching arcs of your undoing the Universe, and the storylines of the 1-50 content all "intersected" with the Omega slot.
 
The original approach with VEATS had you unlocking unique archetypes and then rolling characters that were "leveling" alongside regular 1-50 characters, but also had their own story lines and contacts supplementing that experience.  Imagine that the culmination of the Incarnate story line put your character in the position of being forced into a dilema: the only way to "save the universe" from Battalion (who were consumers of the Wells) was to consume the wells, and all of their power yourself, in essence becoming the "uber being" that your future version warned you about in the side switching story lines.  Essentially, you not only go the route of Emporer Cole, but you go one step further, actually tapping all of the power of ALL the Wells the Battalion had consumed.  Mender Silos warns you that in the future he comes from, this was a plan he encouraged you to take, and doing so, ultimately lead you to becoming as much a threat to the freedom of mankind as the Battalion or Rularru, since you're only a flawed human not meant for omnipotence.  Since you'd have absorbed all of the power of the Wells, and thus the potential energy of every living being in the universe, there were no one heroes left to try and stop you.

What's worse, he doesn't go in to detail but states that your actions will awaken the interest of "those even higher than Battalion, even the Wells", and be the undoing of the entire universe.  He came back in time to try and prevent this mistake from happening again. He gives you a third option, a NEW Nemesis plot, however, which would require the Dream Doctor's help: You consume the wells, defeat the Battalion, then "give up" your omnipotence by destroying your own sentience, willingly allowing the Dream Doctor to imprison your mind in a separate dimension.  You become a new Well, restoring power to heroes around the universe, but also a better "Well."  Unlike previous wells, you will give up all self will, self awareness, and sense of self preservation. Your ID is separated from your body, trapped forever away from the new Well and the very universe you saved.   
 
  This story line unlocks the Omega slot, where your character, still a level 50, has a whole new set of missions unlocked throughout the regular 1-50 game.  Of course, Lord Nemesis isn't completely honest, and after you've killed yourself, you are awoken by Mender Lazarus who tells you that your sacrifice worked, but had some unforseen consequences.  Your restoration of the wells was not perfect, and the timeline -and the power of the well- is in a state of flux.  The well, absent any sense of sentience, is unable to "choose its guardians", and its power is now more easily manipulated and tapped in to.   Some entities are using this as a chance to steal the power of the Well, even altering key moments in history to gather more for themselves from those who otherwise would tap in to it.  Mender Lazarus has restored your sentience to an earlier version of yourself,  (weaker than your omnipotent version but still level 50, still in possession of many of your incarnate powers, etc) to try and correct things. To do this you basically have to reexperince key events of your life, guiding events to make sure that they occur correctly, stopping new threats trying to gather your power for their own purposes, etc. These new experiences come from contacts you had before, as well as new contacts like Mender Lazarus.   

If the technology could be worked out, do something along the lines of what you have with the Nictus and Void Stalkers and HEATS, where when an Incarnate is on the team and is team leader, the villains in the mission spawn as their incarnate level versions, but the mission itself remains the same. So running the Maria Jenkins missions would run the same, but have Incarnate level versions of the baddies if it's an Incarnate's mission.  Also have contacts give additional missions that occur "alongside" the normal missions from the 1-50 content, where you're working to set things right once and for all.  Imagine running the Hollows missions again, only facing Incarnate level Hellions and trolls, using the power of the well to fight you and your team.  Or you're given an extra mission from a contact in Faultline where the 5th Column are trying to kill your younger self as he completes the 5th column Task Force so that you never become a well in the future.  Imagine a single mission given out by Mender Lazarus where you're level 50 incarnate self is fighting a Council attempt to alter the moment when your previous self and 7 others defeated Romulus in ancient Cimerora, and their attempts are resulting in "hiccups" in time.  It would be a fun single mission fighting Incarnate level Council, tie in to the regular 1-50 games missions and stories, and even give an explanation for the crazy lag during an ITF. :-D
 
This way the "end game" is simply "the game" in all its facets.  It includes all of the end game raids, but also reliving the older content in a new way that is still a challenge and makes "sense" from a narrative perspective, and yet doesn't negate your level 50 status or incarnate achievements.  It encourages those "opting in" to incarnate content to still team with those who either haven't yet been able to or have chosen "not to."
 
The story line above is just a poor example of how they could do it, but to me, this sort of hybrid approach of avoiding simply raising the cap, while also avoiding just grinding "raids", and encouraging incarnates to still play with 1-50s AS part of the
end game content that still feels "new" would be a perfect balance. 
 
And honestly, with a little creativity, someone could write a story line where the three major story lines of the game explain it perfectly for something like this. 

It would mean creating Incarnate level versions of all the villains in the game, just like they did the Tsoo, but really, how much harder is that than redoing entire zones and contacts, or adding altogether new ones?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 12:32:34 AM by opprime2828 »

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3510 on: October 08, 2014, 12:20:07 AM »
I suspect that falls under the category of "we'll cross that bridge when we blow it up."
i generally phrase it as "we'll burn that bridge when we come to it."
But yeah, i couldn't see any way additional Incarnate trees could just keep being stacked and make it work well. As it was i had started to find Incarnate powers annoying since by level 50 i already had too many powers in my trays on many of my alts as it was. While i could have relegated some to keybinds i liked being able to see the icon to keep track of recharge status and remind myself what a given alt's loadout was since i tended to switch characters frequently and they usually had very different builds and playstyles. Generally if i took a power i expected to use it fairly often; i almost never took powers just as IO mules. Using binds to swap power trays on the fly was something i mostly reserved for my Kheldians, but i suppose that one advantage of the Incarnate system was that it had almost convinced me to start doing it more often.

Maybe i could have reduced my temp power trays by creating combined temp power macros. One macro for melee temp attacks, one for ranged temp attacks, one for AoEs, mezzes, etcetera...
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3511 on: October 08, 2014, 01:03:16 AM »
But yeah, i couldn't see any way additional Incarnate trees could just keep being stacked and make it work well. As it was i had started to find Incarnate powers annoying since by level 50 i already had too many powers in my trays on many of my alts as it was. While i could have relegated some to keybinds i liked being able to see the icon to keep track of recharge status and remind myself what a given alt's loadout was since i tended to switch characters frequently and they usually had very different builds and playstyles. Generally if i took a power i expected to use it fairly often; i almost never took powers just as IO mules. Using binds to swap power trays on the fly was something i mostly reserved for my Kheldians, but i suppose that one advantage of the Incarnate system was that it had almost convinced me to start doing it more often.

Maybe i could have reduced my temp power trays by creating combined temp power macros. One macro for melee temp attacks, one for ranged temp attacks, one for AoEs, mezzes, etcetera...

One bit of cushion the devs had here was that because the Incarnate system was at the end game, and required being level 50 to progress in it, being a little bit overpowered wasn't a big deal, because killing lots of things didn't gain you faster XP - there was no more XP for killing things anymore (not conventionally).  They did have to be concerned about reward earning rates, but even normal rewards were a non-issue for most level 50s.  As a result, it was mostly incarnate XP they had to deal with, and because they needed to worry about inf less and XP not at all, they could relax some of the game balance limits on handing out stacking power.

But as to stacking, I think there were still lots of opportunities to give Incarnates the ability to do ever more exceptional things without just climibing the ladder upward.  For example, Judgment attacks were far more powerful than most, and yet they didn't actually strike individual targets far more strongly than many other attacks already did.  They just hit a lot more (potentially) and to greater instantaneous effect.  But in terms of net DPS?  They were only slightly more powerful.  Strong, flashy, but not massively more numerically powerful was doable.

Consider the ability to shoot while partially phased, like Master Illusionists.  A very flashy and exceptional ability for players to possess, but not really all that much stronger than the damage mitigation we could already buy from the invention system in practical terms (being randomly phased 50% of the time is only 50% damage mitigation: that's less than most power gamers got out of invention defense bonuses).  How about the ability to instantly recharge all tier 1 and tier 2 powers constantly for fifteen seconds?

One of the ideas I had for the Omega slot was that the Omega tree would allow you to create "universal" incarnate slots.  Within a universal Omega slot, you could slot *any* other incarnate power you didn't already have slotted and use it exempted from any exclusivity or global cooldowns.  So for example, you could slot another set of Lore pets, and you could then use your Lore pets and your Omega pets independently, even together.  Or you could slot two Alphas and get the benefit of both.  The Omega tree would have a core/radial/total/partial distinction as to what you could slot and what the overall effect would be (I was toying with the idea of the core tree slotting one full strength incarnate power of the appropriate tier, while the radial tree slotting multiple powers of lower tier).

I think there were lots of ways to give players interesting abilities worth trying to earn, without simply stacking bigger numbers on top of conventional powers.

Phaetan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3512 on: October 08, 2014, 01:59:57 AM »
While the unlocking of ever increasing Incarnate tiers didn';t really seem like a solid plan, I was more unhappy with the plans for handling the addition of a new enemy with each such jump.  The idea that each enemy would "call in" to a higher power that was their puppetmaster just before being defeated, over and over, seemed like a very weak framework.  After reading Posi's commentary on such plans, I was somewhat glad that it did not have a chance to come to pass.

I understand that he wanted to keep adding more and more layers or endgame content like this to keep players on the hamster wheel, but the string of increasingly unlikely umaskings seemed rather silly.  Scooby Doo isn't really an ideal role model for plot twists when you presumably intend to keep things somewhat serious.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3513 on: October 08, 2014, 02:14:30 AM »
While the unlocking of ever increasing Incarnate tiers didn';t really seem like a solid plan, I was more unhappy with the plans for handling the addition of a new enemy with each such jump.  The idea that each enemy would "call in" to a higher power that was their puppetmaster just before being defeated, over and over, seemed like a very weak framework.  After reading Posi's commentary on such plans, I was somewhat glad that it did not have a chance to come to pass.

I understand that he wanted to keep adding more and more layers or endgame content like this to keep players on the hamster wheel, but the string of increasingly unlikely umaskings seemed rather silly.  Scooby Doo isn't really an ideal role model for plot twists when you presumably intend to keep things somewhat serious.

Keep in mind that from the devs perspective, that is basically how the rest of the game's content worked.  The Skyraiders give way to the Malta, the Lost give way to the Rikti.  There are, in a very literal sense, level 10 villains and level 20 villains and level 30 villains and level 40 villains.  There was some cross pollination, but we essentially aren't fighting Trolls at level 45.

I also do not believe the devs actually said that the different higher villains would always be seen to be mere minions of a higher power.  There might have been a relationship between the Dimensionless and the Battalion, but I doubt there would be one (of this kind) between the True Rikti and either of them.  We also know for a fact (as much as anything is certain) that the Praetorians did not "call in" the Battalion.  The Praetorian story leads into the Battalion one, but not through an unmasking of a higher power.  A *reveal* of a higher power perhaps, but not an unmasking of a puppetmaster.

I will say, though, that this is one area that I believe the devs were notoriously bad at.  Given lots of ways to make a viably consistent story, they always seemed to go the extra mile to make it deliberately more self-contradictory and confusing.  So I wouldn't bet real money they wouldn't have done something goofy here.

Rejolt

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3514 on: October 08, 2014, 02:25:00 AM »
The only thing on the table is a server image from the day of shutdown which is I23. Unless something has changed, there is no way to acquire an I24 image because, as far as we know, it does not exist.

/raises hand.

Can we polietly and quietly ask a former Paragon Dev about all this talk of images and saved game states and see if we can go Cold Case or Sherlock Holmes on it? Was the test server just not something they focused on saving? What was the name of the developer-only server again?

I'm sure someone's already done this or tried to but it's the first thought I had when I heard of this image-only problem.
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Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3515 on: October 08, 2014, 04:48:59 AM »
Can we polietly and quietly ask a former Paragon Dev about all this talk of images and saved game states and see if we can go Cold Case or Sherlock Holmes on it?

No.

As in, no, you cannot ask.  Nor do you want to, when a possible deal to acquire the rights to I23 is still on the table.  Bird in the hand, bird in the hand.

If anyone has an I24 image, and its something they want to share, you won't need to ask.  They'll find us.  If they don't or can't share, no amount of unsolicited asking will change their mind.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3516 on: October 08, 2014, 04:56:32 AM »
No.

As in, no, you cannot ask.  Nor do you want to, when a possible deal to acquire the rights to I23 is still on the table.  Bird in the hand, bird in the hand.

If anyone has an I24 image, and its something they want to share, you won't need to ask.  They'll find us.  If they don't or can't share, no amount of unsolicited asking will change their mind.

Quite correct.  Let's just get the game back as ish 23 and enjoy it bugs and all while they convert to the U4 engine, THEN see if ish 24 features can be incorporated.

Now IF the game returns and a former dev steps out of the shadows wearing a trenchcoat, hat and mask and says "Pssst!.....I got a golden ish 24 disc here for ya!"  Well then we shall see what happens.
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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3517 on: October 08, 2014, 10:07:17 AM »
Quote
I think there were lots of ways to give players interesting abilities worth trying to earn, without simply stacking bigger numbers on top of conventional powers.

Off the top of my head

Lore Style Power that was an AV character instead of a pair of villain group characters
Passive protection to CC
Passive CC reduction
Passive defense
Passive Resistance
An inherent from another AT
A single power from a power set grouping your AT does not have access too. (god this could break things in hilarious ways)
Big Single target attack
Big single target CC
AOE CC

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3518 on: October 08, 2014, 01:30:42 PM »
 I never had an issue with the Incarnate system. I enjoyed it. It was fun.

 The best thing about it is that it was completely optional.. You didnt HAVE to play it at all if you didnt choose to.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3519 on: October 08, 2014, 03:35:47 PM »
I never had an issue with the Incarnate system. I enjoyed it. It was fun.

 The best thing about it is that it was completely optional.. You didnt HAVE to play it at all if you didnt choose to.

Yeah, but I'm fatter than you, so have a bigger... opinion! :p