Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749463 times)

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2240 on: September 15, 2014, 02:08:45 AM »
I24 was essentially complete. It was on the test server for a month prior to the announcement. Positron has said it was a week away from release. The other powersets that are visable in ICON were not intended for I24.

And yes, it would created a DPS and survivability increase for ranged characters. That was the whole purpose, because they were significantly inferior to melee and control characters. And you are correct, they intended to up the difficulty of future content.

Hardly.  My blaster kicked ass like it was his career.  Different classes were good at different things.  Sure a stalker could kill an elite boss faster then me.  But I could kill the rest of the trash and groups in half the time it would take them to do it.  They were not inferior, if you wanted to play a single target character with naturally high defenses then you play a melee character.  If you want more AoE damage and to be the focused DPS.  Play a ranged character.  It is like that in every game.  My blaster could do anything a melee character or control character could do in CoH besides the obvious differences of I didn't use control powers and I didn't use my fists.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 02:13:52 AM by Taceus Jiwede »

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2241 on: September 15, 2014, 02:10:54 AM »
For the chance to play again! And with a bit of hope that they will go over to 1.5. No reason to worry or feel futility, instead, just look forward with hope and be happy to play again!


We're almost there!   ;D

what he said..I just want to play...NAO!!!!!just joking..but they really need to expedite negotiations before my brains melt playing swtor

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2242 on: September 15, 2014, 02:13:30 AM »
Hardly.  My blaster kicked ass like it was his career.  Different classes were good at different things.  Sure a stalker could kill an elite boss faster then me.  But I could kill the rest of the trash and groups in half the time it would take them to do it.  They were not inferior, if you wanted to play a single target character with naturally high defenses then you play a melee character.  If you want more AoE damage and to be the focused DPS.  Play a ranged character.  It is like that in every game.  My blaster could do anything a melee character could do in CoH.
the datamined numbers didnt agree with you. a scrapper could take on half of some maps by himself and not slow down...try that on a blaster and you better have wakies. yet they both had same job..DPS. your feeling doesnt make the math not true.

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2243 on: September 15, 2014, 02:14:28 AM »
the datamined numbers didnt agree with you. a scrapper could take on half of some maps by himself and not slow down...try that on a blaster and you better have wakies. yet they both had same job..DPS. your feeling doesnt make the math not true.

My blaster soloed on X8+2.  I could clear a whole map by my self too without slowing down.  And solo AV's, and Solo TF's.

Feeling has nothing to do with it.   I am going by experience.

Codewalker

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2244 on: September 15, 2014, 02:20:59 AM »
You can see it if you pull up icon beta and look around. (I don't think the icon mod actually put in damage amounts, but I could be wrong).

Bad example. Icon disables the in-game store availability checks for things that have been unlocked, so it shows a lot of WIP stuff that was not scheduled to go live with I24.

It seems to me that these "fixes" that were to be introduced in I24 were a bit odd. So many changes (that had been back burnered for years) in one issue?

Yeah, that was kind of the point.

I can think of two obvious possible reasons for this.
One, the devs knew something was up and the game was getting close to closing. This would have been a push for new players to save the game.
Two, the devs were settling the game with an eye to the future issues. As in, they had something planned which would have included much harder content.

Three, they were addressing long-standing disparity issues, many of which were created by melee power creep. As in, melee ATs have gotten many buffs over the years bringing their damage to substantially higher levels than originally possible, not to mention new and clearly overpowered sets like Titan Weapons and Shield Defense.

Ranged sets, on the other hand, were mostly ignored during the same time period and had not seen the same level of increase. When a Brute can do almost as much damage as a Blaster, and have personal defenses to do it much more safely, there's a problem.

Personally, I would have nerfed Brutes. However, the Paragon devs decided to buff Blasters instead, and the other ranged ATs as well to a lesser degree.

When you start looking at the numbers, there was a huuuge increase in DPS on the way for blasters, defenders and corrupters.
Did this "balance" need to take place for those ATs because they were so inferior to the melee and control characters? I'm not convinced of that.

You must not be looking at the same numbers I am. When I compare the I23 data to the I24 data, the only significant changes I see are:

  • Fast snipe. Of all the changes, this one has the most impact, and would increase single-target DPS for sets that could make use of it by a decent amount. Not earth-shattering, but decent. It doesn't affect AoE, which is already where Blasters tend to shine.

    It also made snipes into something that wouldn't be considered a nearly useless situational power like they were, which is something the devs had wanted to address for a long time.

  • Crashless nukes. This was more in response to Judgment powers making nukes functionally irrelevant than anything else. Arcana's arguments about nukes not respecting the damage formula (they should have done much more damage than they did, for their recharge) played into it as well.

    What's important to note about this is that while the crash was removed and the recharge was lowered on many nuke powers, the actual damage done went down in I24. So it was a nerf to raw damage but a buff to usability.

  • Ice blast was getting some love, by putting damage in Bitter Freeze Ray to make it not completely inferior to and redundant with Freeze Ray.

  • Dual Pistols, which was one of the lowest performing ranged damage sets, got some much needed adjustment to its animation times.

That's about it for the shared changes. Blasters of course got some extra utility, survivability, and longevity added to their secondaries. That was also needed, as the design for blaster secondaries hadn't been touched since launch, and was massively outdated.

I was actually speaking specifically to the damage numbers of corrupters I can see in Icon Beta. They are out of whack with the blaster versions. As in dual pistol corrupter damage was higher than dual pistol blaster damage. That kind of thing.

I've seen you post this a few places, but I have no idea what you think you're seeing. As someone who was watching every patch as it came out to do detailed comparison against the previous in order to find any undocumented changes, if Corruptors had been significantly altered I think I would have noticed. Their attack set numbers were mostly untouched from I23 to I24, other than fixing Scourge damage in a couple places where it was calculated wrong.

If you're looking at the in-game power info "real numbers" displays, those have always been hit or miss for whether or not they work correctly. They tended to be a bit buggy and get confused by special mechanics like Swap Ammo or Corruptor Scourge. Check City of Data instead, it was loaded with the final I24 beta build shortly before the shutdown.

Codewalker

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2245 on: September 15, 2014, 02:26:14 AM »
Bells, Whistles, increased Aggo Caps, and a Wombat Master AT.

NOTE: I might be lying.

Joking or not, I would strongly caution against making arbitrary changes to core mechanics like aggro caps just because you think it might be "better" or have a personal opinion.

There's a reason that a lot of people liked playing CoH, a reason that even the original developers achieved by accident and didn't fully understand. The more you tinker, the more you risk accidentally removing that reason.

lapucelle

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2246 on: September 15, 2014, 02:32:52 AM »
More press. It's gettin' back to where we need a "Thank the media" thread, again. :)

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/09/02/city-of-heroes-spiritual-successor-could-become-an-official-resurrection/?fb_action_ids=812603425445864&fb_action_types=og.likes

You know, that's a good idea. If you guys could collect all the CoH and CoT and APR news articles, I'd appreciate it.

kierthos

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2247 on: September 15, 2014, 02:37:49 AM »
I'll tell you, I wouldn't mind having access to the I24 power sets, especially Martial Combat for Blasters.

Zubenelgenubi

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2248 on: September 15, 2014, 02:50:21 AM »
Sentinel files are off the table, no one will be able to use them so it's not even an issue. No reason to argue or get upset about it.

Some of us with 8 years of time and energy invested in our badge characters may disagree that there's "no reason" to get upset about losing all of that. Just sayin'.
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Shard

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2249 on: September 15, 2014, 02:59:56 AM »
what was not done without an opt in?

would not, not was not.

Dickish or not the TRUTH hurts! The characters were NEVER yours.

And you've legal qualifications to back up that interpretation of every version of the EULA in every jurisdiction on the globe then?
Missing Worlds Media - Lead Pain in the .. well everything.

Pherdnut

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2250 on: September 15, 2014, 03:06:31 AM »
Some of us with 8 years of time and energy invested in our badge characters may disagree that there's "no reason" to get upset about losing all of that. Just sayin'.

But who will you pissed at? The people bringing it back who couldn't get that data or the only people in a position to give it back who aren't going to for reasons that make a lot more sense than why they shuttered it in the first place?

Remaugen

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2251 on: September 15, 2014, 03:14:18 AM »
Some of us with 8 years of time and energy invested in our badge characters may disagree that there's "no reason" to get upset about losing all of that. Just sayin'.

It is all lost now. It's not on the table for negotiation. Yes, I want all my toons back, my bases, badges and loot, but the simple fact is that we are not likely to see any of it ever again.

So instead, look forward to getting the game back! Seriously, if loosing all your loot hurts so much that you don't wanna come back, well you don't have too. Bottom line is, getting upset isn't gonna help you any and may just make you bitter. Be happy that we are probably getting our game back, and if anything else comes along, it's gravy, but just don't expect or demand it.


We're almost there!   ;D
We're almost there!  ;D

The RNG hates me.

HEATSTROKE

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2252 on: September 15, 2014, 03:14:36 AM »
I24 was essentially complete. It was on the test server for a month prior to the announcement. Positron has said it was a week away from release. The other powersets that are visable in ICON were not intended for I24.

And yes, it would created a DPS and survivability increase for ranged characters. That was the whole purpose, because they were significantly inferior to melee and control characters. And you are correct, they intended to up the difficulty of future content.

Really.. SIGNIFICANTLY inferior to Melee and Control...

So my PbAoE Rad/Fire Blaster that could EASILY (and did so often) Hold Doors on the BAF with NO help was inferior.. That same blaster made Spines Scrappers cry with the damage output he did AND could wade right into the middle of mobs and mow them down without taking a scratch???

Or My Elec/Elec Blaster than could drain and keep a mob on Zero end all day long forcing them to use their weakest possible attacks.. AND who has three single target holds so he could lock down any LT or Boss easily was inferior ??

Or my Fire/Mental Blaster that had Fire/Kins on mission ask me regularly.. what build IS that ??? Inferior AT" Hardly..

Inferior players on Blasters.... definitely..

Codewalker

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2253 on: September 15, 2014, 03:22:38 AM »
For one, strictly speaking they legally cannot. The players in their agreement with NCSoft were afforded privacy in their agreement so NCSoft would not sell that data to third parties interested in soliciting the player base for MMO related marketing.

Legal protection for privacy is not nearly as extensive as many people think. In fact, it's pretty damn near nonexistent outside of medical and education records.

I'd also like to remind everyone that Champions Online changed owners with all character data and most account information intact.  Twice.

HEATSTROKE

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2254 on: September 15, 2014, 03:22:44 AM »
It is all lost now. It's not on the table for negotiation. Yes, I want all my toons back, my bases, badges and loot, but the simple fact is that we are not likely to see any of it ever again.

So instead, look forward to getting the game back! Seriously, if loosing all your loot hurts so much that you don't wanna come back, well you don't have too. Bottom line is, getting upset isn't gonna help you any and may just make you bitter. Be happy that we are probably getting our game back, and if anything else comes along, it's gravy, but just don't expect or demand it.


We're almost there!   ;D

Its not on the table NOW..but as someone who is negotiating some things in real life.. not on the table NOW doesnt necessarily mean forever..

And you can EXPECT anything you want to.. thats the problem.. people often expect little.. so they get little.. we are SO afraid of being let down or disappointed we are trained not to ask... not to expect.. and definitely dont hope.. because your hope may be let down..

I learned a LONG time ago.. You have not... because you ASK NOT..

Think about it.. at one time there was for many NO HOPE we would ever see City of Heroes return in any form or fashion.. We were told Nc Soft NEVER negotiates.. but now we have hope...

So people cant HOPE that somehow character data can be recovered... to that I say boulderdash...

hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things

So therefore.. I hope..

Surelle

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2255 on: September 15, 2014, 03:23:06 AM »
It is all lost now. It's not on the table for negotiation. Yes, I want all my toons back, my bases, badges and loot, but the simple fact is that we are not likely to see any of it ever again.

So instead, look forward to getting the game back! Seriously, if loosing all your loot hurts so much that you don't wanna come back, well you don't have too. Bottom line is, getting upset isn't gonna help you any and may just make you bitter. Be happy that we are probably getting our game back, and if anything else comes along, it's gravy, but just don't expect or demand it.

You know, if we do ever get CoX back, my very first 50 was a katana scrapper, and I don't think a level went by where I didn't wish I had rolled broadsword.  Hey, now I can finally make Lemon Slice a broadsword scrapper without feeling like I'm behind all my family and friends in levels, haha.   ;D

Surelle

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2256 on: September 15, 2014, 03:24:40 AM »
Legal protection for privacy is not nearly as extensive as many people think. In fact, it's pretty damn near nonexistent outside of medical and education records.

I'd also like to remind everyone that Champions Online changed owners with all character data and most account information intact.  Twice.

True, but it was the same developers all through, and the game didn't go down and wind up in storage (as account/pmt/contact/email info became passe) for two years in between.   ;)

HEATSTROKE

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2257 on: September 15, 2014, 03:25:18 AM »
the datamined numbers didnt agree with you. a scrapper could take on half of some maps by himself and not slow down...try that on a blaster and you better have wakies. yet they both had same job..DPS. your feeling doesnt make the math not true.

You go get any scrapper you want.. and Ill get my Rad/Fire blaster that plays 90% of the time in melee.. not only would you be shocked and amazed.. you might even be embarrassed...

Codewalker

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2258 on: September 15, 2014, 03:27:46 AM »
True, but it was the same developers all through, and the game didn't go down and wind up in storage (as account/pmt/contact/email info became passe) for two years in between.   ;)

I agree, but those are technical and/or administrative issues, not legal ones.

Codewalker

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2259 on: September 15, 2014, 03:32:31 AM »
You go get any scrapper you want.. and Ill get my Rad/Fire blaster that plays 90% of the time in melee.. not only would you be shocked and amazed.. you might even be embarrassed...

Anecdotal experiences of one person playing a specific powerset combo with (presumably) an expensive IO build do not make a good balance point for an entire AT.

I won't argue that some blaster combos could be very good in the hands of an experienced player. But only if you learned to work around things that players of other ATs didn't have to, and for not nearly as much of a damage lead as they used to have.

I bet a well built Elec/SD or a TW/Fire brute could give you a serious run for your money, and probably take on much larger groups while they're at it.