And the mask comes off.

[Ankhammon]

It has been mentioned several times now that the i23 we would be given is a snapshot from the servers the night the game closed down.  I think we're safe.

Thanks. Even though I've read every bit of this thread, somehow that bounced right out of my mind.

[Moonlighter]

Here would be my big questions.

~ Will account data be saved? I don't mind rebuilding characters from scratch, but I would be really sad to lose my Veteran rewards and all the costumes and power sets I bought.

~ Any chance we could get the test server build or see it at some point? The changes on the test server were awesome. The blaster changes in particular rocked.

Moonlighter

[Ankhammon]

Here would be my big questions.

~ Will account data be saved? I don't mind rebuilding characters from scratch, but I would be really sad to lose my Veteran rewards and all the costumes and power sets I bought.

~ Any chance we could get the test server build or see it at some point? The changes on the test server were awesome. The blaster changes in particular rocked.

Moonlighter

The account data information does not look like it's included in the snapshot of the deal we have been told about. But as was stated, it is just a peak into what could be the deal and is not a final deal in any way.

As for the test server, it was never in a finished state. While you (and me) may have been excited to see the changes to blast sets, what was in beta was not finalized.
For example, corrupter DP damage was higher than that of Blasters. That was just one that I saw.

[Kistulot]

Uh, Whoops. That should actually be Irc.pc-logix.com. Not Isis.
My bad.

Somehow it worked anyway, so I'll be there!

[Blondeshell]

It has been mentioned several times now that the i23 we would be given is a snapshot from the servers the night the game closed down.  I think we're safe.

For the sake of easy reference:

Power Sets Sorted by Date

[Harpospoke]

Before ninja run on my katana/sr back in the old days at one point my travel power was quickness + swift + sprint with SO's in them and Combat Jumping

I still remember teaming with this guy with no travel power.   He kept telling me he didn't need it.   It was pretty early in my playing career so I was pretty skeptical and thought he was a little wacky.   

But then he kept getting to the mish doors about the same time I did give or take.    I was blown away.   He finally told me he was using Hurdle+CJ.    Man...he could move fast.    That's when I started taking Hurdle instead of Swift.   

[Harpospoke]

Let me put this in in my own thoughts:

If we don't get the game back we can make our own game. We can import all of the graphics and missions - even the characters with minor changes - because - CoH ran on the Cryptic engine and had different names for its characters. Making your own game with similar gameplay is not illegal.

I like it.

[Power Gamer]

I still remember teaming with this guy with no travel power.   He kept telling me he didn't need it.   It was pretty early in my playing career so I was pretty skeptical and thought he was a little wacky.   

But then he kept getting to the mish doors about the same time I did give or take.    I was blown away.   He finally told me he was using Hurdle+CJ.    Man...he could move fast.    That's when I started taking Hurdle instead of Swift.   

I did the same, built a toon called "No Travel Power Man".
His battle cry was "It's fun to run!"

[Heliopause]

Question.  What entity gets up and running, and maintains the MMO's infrastructure on the back end and how would that get paid for if anyone would care to speculate?  I don't know how MMO architectures work but I'm sure it is complex and expensive.   

Thanks.

[Zombie Hustler]

I agree with this. Traveling the city, going from place to place.. You felt part of the world.

Not to mention that IMO, some areas shouldn't have simply been "open season" for everyone. I know that- as a newbie- I had had enough troubles using the trams to get to areas that were too high level for me, and had some serious wake up experiences ("D'OH!"), but that problem simply got exacerbated towards the end with all the open transit.

Add to that that so many zones at that point had close story arc/continuity ties, and should have been more transitioned into. First Ward notably comes to mind (as a Praetoria lover). I think it was already kind of an oddity to have that zone so open to non-Praetorians, but to just have it available to enter as a first level hero in Paragon City was kind of weird.

[Stealth Dart]

 

[Stealth Dart]

 

[AlienOne]

Disclaimer (I should probably preface all my posts with this....lol):

This is not a personal attack against anyone quoted below--I am simply quoting them to give reference for what I am about to say. I have no fight with anyone here. I actually believe that we're a great community and everyone here who is a friend of the effort to get the game back is a friend of mine. This is simply a little statement/rant about what I've observed about gaming wants/expectations over the past few decades.

As a noob I remember not being able to figure out how the trains worked so I made the mistake of walking though the Zone entrance for Skyway City as a lowly level 5 and getting attacked by a mob of clockwork.  Which then ended up sending me to the Skyway medical clinic.  Then me having to try and run all the way back to Atlas Park without drawing aggro.  LOL  I died many, many times....but I got there eventually.

And you have a great memory to share of those times because of it.

Not to mention that IMO, some areas shouldn't have simply been "open season" for everyone. I know that- as a newbie- I had had enough troubles using the trams to get to areas that were too high level for me, and had some serious wake up experiences ("D'OH!"), but that problem simply got exacerbated towards the end with all the open transit.

Add to that that so many zones at that point had close story arc/continuity ties, and should have been more transitioned into. First Ward notably comes to mind (as a Praetoria lover). I think it was already kind of an oddity to have that zone so open to non-Praetorians, but to just have it available to enter as a first level hero in Paragon City was kind of weird.

Not to mention that IMO, some areas shouldn't have simply been "open season" for everyone. I know that- as a newbie- I had had enough troubles using the trams to get to areas that were too high level for me, and had some serious wake up experiences ("D'OH!"), but that problem simply got exacerbated towards the end with all the open transit.

Add to that that so many zones at that point had close story arc/continuity ties, and should have been more transitioned into. First Ward notably comes to mind (as a Praetoria lover). I think it was already kind of an oddity to have that zone so open to non-Praetorians, but to just have it available to enter as a first level hero in Paragon City was kind of weird.

There are those of us out here in the world that actually prefer to learn by experience than being "throttled" or "forced" into doing something. I'd rather pull an "oops, guess that death means I wasn't supposed to be there yet!" than find out via some kind of message "NO. YOU CANNOT ENTER THIS AREA." On top of this, an open world allows for various challenges ("let's see... I wonder if I enhance with this and choose this and this power, can I go up against an enemy 5 levels higher than me when I'm level 15....") I maintain that more options is better.

If you can't tell, I don't like the "linear story/combat" experience. It suggests there is only "one way to play." And if you make a game that only allows for "one way to play," you really cut down on the amount of people it will appeal to. A truly well-made game (as we all well know since we've all played CoH) is one that allows many personalities and many demographics and many walks of life play it in their own way and have their own experience. Like to travel? Great, we've got it for you. Like to skip the travel? Great, there's options for that as well. Like to do story-based short missions? We've got it. Rather do a longer-term series of missions? We have task forces. You're a PvP person? We've got several zones that are for nothing but that. Interested in just dressing up and RP'ing? You can do that too.

Most other modern games (even in the MMO genre) have very limited costume options, extremely limited ways you can play, and--if you're not the Elder Scrolls, Fallout, or Grand Theft Auto--sometimes even limit where you can go. It's as if most developers out there aren't really interested in selling their game. They're more interested in creating something they themselves would play their own way. That's fine in a sense (why wouldn't you design a game you wanted to play?), but then comes the question of sustainability. If you don't have more options to appeal to more people built into the game, you can guarantee there will be a flood of people who will try your game, not like it, and move on.

However, if you build a TON of options in a game like CoH did, you grab a very wide audience that stays loyal to the game because they're allowed to play it how they want to.

What about the people who did nothing but build their base all day? What if they were pigeon-holed into something else and prevented from doing that? What do you think would happen to them? They'd move on and find a game that allowed them to express themselves the way they wanted. Can you imagine what it would be like if you couldn't adjust your UI to exactly how you preferred it? Or put your powers where you wanted?

I can completely understand if something is game-breaking. Or, imbalanced. Or overpowered. I'm not talking about those things. Remember all the people who complained about the new graphics? They still could play the game on their old machines in the resolution they always could, but because there was a new "option" for people who could take advantage of it, they complained. Because they didn't (or couldn't) use it.

I don't know... I just feel like a lot of people don't realize that if they wish for QoL enhancements to get taken away, or fewer options, or nerfs, they're most likely ruining someone else's favorite experience. The immediate reaction of MOST people with this "I don't like it so it shouldn't be there" attitude always seems to be "if you don't like it, you can always leave."

Fine. So, let's say a huge chunk of people decide to leave because they start to get aggravated that they're not allowed to travel like they want to. Or, they don't have as much of an "open world" as they'd like. Then there are not enough people there to support the game you told them to leave. And....suddenly there isn't a whole lot of people to play with...or, even worse, it gets shut down. Would you be happy with the results of "if you don't like it, leave" in an MMO world?

Maybe I should have been a Producer.

[Zombie Hustler]

Yes, Positron did reserve the right to change everything in the event that CoH comes back; fortunately, there's enough left open in the lore that the "Coming Storm" can still be anything - hints were dropped in game, sure, but nothing was absolutely certain.

It should just turn out to be a big hurricane.

"That's it?!?!?!?" (Runs off to kick Prometheus' - aka Chicken Little's - butt.)

[Arcana]

This actually really saddens me. First, because with my set up reading long boxes of text becomes a bit tedious and takes me OUT of the game world, but more importantly...
 
To me it's a sign of a game that will already feel "dated" by design in ways new players might find unpalatable.  I work with teenagers and can tell you that this younger generation sees games where all dialogue is text based as outdated to the point of being "quaint."  It seems rather like the mindset Nintendo took with HD graphics and Dialogue in the last generation console wars, and we see how that turned out.  At least the 200 or so of us who have a Wii U do. Not keeping up with the direction of the medium REALLY hurt Nintendo badly.  To the point that they may never recover, even after releasing and entirely new console to try and make up the losses.
 
Of course, as someone with an extensive background in writing, I wholeheartedly disagree with your comments on super hero dialogue.  Have you ever watched ANY of the current Marvel Universe cartoons on Disney?  Or any of the JLU series? The reason that dialogue is "good" while the 1980 Superfriends dialogue is "bad" has nothing to do with the medium itself, it has to do with expectations. 
 
Good dialogue is good dialogue. Bad dialogue is bad dialogue. If you're writing "corny" dialogue that's not because of the genre, it's because of bad writing or because the assumption is that somehow it "should" be corny.  That was the expectation in the 60s, 70s, and 80s for Super Heroes, both in style, story line, and dialogue. They were campy and over the top.  It isn't the expectation any more, and unless you want to pull a Champions Online, which pursued that antiquated view of Super heroes to its detriment, then your writing shouldn't have any dialogue bordering on "corny", so it shouldn't need Morgan Freeman to pull off.
 
Just my 2 cents.   
 

The problem isn't that all voice acting is bad or all superhero scripted dialog is silly.  The problem is that voice dialog and the gameplay scaffolding that goes along with it is much more frictional in MMOs specifically than in single player games.  In single player games the game runs at whatever pace you want.  But in MMOs you have to design all (or almost all) content on the presumption that teams will run it.  And SWTOR isn't considered "advanced" because of its voice scenes.  Its generally considered to be "annoying" when not being played single-player.

Good design is not about using the most technically advanced features possible.  Its about fitting form to function in the best way possible with available technology.  With written text its possible for some players in the team to read quickly and dismiss the text at their own pace while other players can read slower, and with the right technology even go back and read it again if they can't read it fast enough.  I screencapped all dialog in CoH specifically to allow myself to do that, and I'm the fastest reader I know.  Absolutely no one was reading mission dialog faster than I was, but it was still convenient for me to save for future reference.  Its not as easy to do that for voice acted cutscenes.

That's separate from the fact that good voice acting costs money which has to be diverted from being spent on making more content.  Its just very difficult to integrate more than atmospheric voice content into MMOs in a way that isn't disruptive to multiplayer gameplay.

[Heliopause]

I never understood why COH was shutdown in the first place.  It apparently was making a profit and more so after moving F2P from what I understand.

[Zombie Hustler]

To play Devil's ... Prosecutor?  Travel wasn't just a convenience for getting to content.  Ubiquitous travel was a critical part of why City of Heroes was an extremely casual-friendly game.  We could casual-team in a way you really do not see in other MMOs.  In no other MMO I've seen did we have the dual elements of friendly chat channels ("looking for two for ITF run") and almost ludicrous ubiquitous travel capability ("I'm in, OMW").  In most MMOs, if you want to join a team in progress, and you aren't lucky enough to be standing right next to them at the time, you're screwed.  That's why so many MMOs designed for and needed "meeting zones" where players could hook up for teams.  Chat channels to organize teams?  Why?  If you aren't already on their team how do you expect to get to their mission, or their zone?  You have to literally be there when the team organizes. 

Certainly a good point, and one I hadn't thought about (probably because I'm primarily a solo player, but when I did team, this was definitely a useful feature).

I was largely thinking of how it impacted story elements (particularly at the end; I can go to Praetoria right after completing the Newbie Intro mission? Cool! What the heck is Praetoria, again?)

Then again, that was always a problem inasfar as new content went in other areas as well- losing a sense of cohesion and continuity. So not strictly a "ubiquitous travel" dilemma.

I can't help but think there could be some more middle ground here, but I definitely grant you this point.

[Zombie Hustler]

But then he kept getting to the mish doors about the same time I did give or take.    I was blown away.   He finally told me he was using Hurdle+CJ.    Man...he could move fast.    That's when I started taking Hurdle instead of Swift.   

One of my mains (Great White Hunter) was like this. It just didn't fit his theme to have any of them. While I later would occasionally pick up a jetpack now and then, he didn't generally have any major difficulties when it came time to team up.

Now, if they'd have gotten some vehicles into the game, I'm fairly certain I'd have grabbed one for him.

[Zombie Hustler]

As a noob I remember not being able to figure out how the trains worked so I made the mistake of walking though the Zone entrance for Skyway City as a lowly level 5 and getting attacked by a mob of clockwork.  Which then ended up sending me to the Skyway medical clinic.  Then me having to try and run all the way back to Atlas Park without drawing aggro.  LOL  I died many, many times....but I got there eventually.

That happened to me a lot, because exploring is one of the things I most enjoy about video games- seeing the different locations and sights, creatures/enemies, etc. I remember taking an excessively long time trying to get to Founder's Falls with my (probably around level 8 or 9) character when I first started, just because I wanted to see all the zones. Died so very, very many times. lol

[Arcana]

I don't know... I just feel like a lot of people don't realize that if they wish for QoL enhancements to get taken away, or fewer options, or nerfs, they're most likely ruining someone else's favorite experience. The immediate reaction of MOST people with this "I don't like it so it shouldn't be there" attitude always seems to be "if you don't like it, you can always leave."

Fine. So, let's say a huge chunk of people decide to leave because they start to get aggravated that they're not allowed to travel like they want to. Or, they don't have as much of an "open world" as they'd like. Then there are not enough people there to support the game you told them to leave. And....suddenly there isn't a whole lot of people to play with...or, even worse, it gets shut down. Would you be happy with the results of "if you don't like it, leave" in an MMO world?

Maybe I should have been a Producer.

By in large I was a strong supporter of expansive gameplay options in City of Heroes.  And there is a lot of truth to the statement that many people were very cavalier about advocating the removal of gameplay options that other players felt were important to their enjoyment of the game.  But I think there is a significant amount of truth to the reverse that people were completely blind to, and that is that it is not necessarily true that all gameplay additions were "free" in the sense of not intrinsically removing others.

My canonical example was to note how so many people stated that the archetype system was one of CoH's most unnecessary gameplay restrictions, and that allowing players to just pick whatever powers they wanted was the best option.  If people *wanted* to play under more restrictions, they could just do that, so the idea went.  How could adding more options possibly devalue the existing ones?  Champions Online was a godsend in this respect, because it allowed to me stop arguing the hypothetical, and just point.  Champions Online, by allowing ranged combat and high end defenses to be freely mixed, basically destroyed the melee fighter option.  It was simply illogical to deliberately handicap yourself by neglecting to take ranged attacks, and doing so put you at an incredible disadvantage to other players, at least at launch and for a long time afterward.  Simply put, by adding one option - ranged scrappers - they destroyed another as a practical matter if not technically - the melee fighter.  In City of Heroes, there are actually *more* distinct power combination options precisely because the archetype lanes create pockets of valid powerset combinations separated by some distance.

The practical aspect of this change was that CO had far less replay value than CoH did, and even the devs had to acknowledge that moving from the hypothetical framework system they had kicked around in beta to the more open one had actually removed replayability - thus the F2P option was more restricted in powerset combinations.  In essence, they brought archetypes back.

Its not always obvious what you give up when to get something else, and I saw just as many players see no problem with adding options that devalued other ones as I did players seeing no problem with taking options away.  There is very often a balancing act when  new options are added, and its not easy to know when a new option is a genuinely free option to add (i.e. it has no undesireable side effects).

Adding options can cost you players in exactly the same way removing them can.  Keep this firmly in mind: the kind of gameplay that City of Heroes encouraged by virtue of dev, well, to put it bluntly, incompetence, was one in which Holy Trinity gameplay was devalued, role-based teaming was not enforced, and players were far more able to solo than in any previous (and in nearly all successive) MMOs.  Sounds great now, but at the time those additional options for gameplay *cost* City of Heroes a lot of players.  The devs were getting a lot of feedback that the game was too easy, that Tankers were useless and therefore not fun to play, that too many players were soloing and not joining teams, making those that wanted teamed play less able to find teams on a consistent basis for harder content.  A lot of players don't remember or were not around to read these same comments on the forums.  I think most people today would say the price of losing those players was unfortunate, but better for the game in the long run.

Just remember what we're saying when we say its always good to add options because you never want to turn away players, when the only way we got those options was by losing players.  There's no such thing as bloodless MMO design.