Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1712224 times)

Harpospoke

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #960 on: September 04, 2014, 03:54:39 PM »
The main issue with any "code reuse" isn't actually going to be code reuse as such.. It's pretty unlikely any of the game code in CoH lives on in other NCSoft games as it's the only product Cryptic wrote under NCSoft's publishing banner.

What WILL be a problem though, is any code that talks to NCSoft's accounts systems.  This is stuff like the login authentication, store access, content gated behind being a subscriber...  They're not going to want anyone to see that, and they're probably not going to want the bother of digging it out of the CoH codebase to remove it.
Ok, that makes sense.   Thanks FFM.

Codewalker

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #961 on: September 04, 2014, 03:54:49 PM »
Because my mind is not understanding how CoH had such a messy mess that seems to have been created especially for it....but then it may be being used in other NCSoft games?    I'm not quite understanding the process that would allow for the mess to happen in the first place...I understand even less that the company would then use that mess for other games.   The one benefit to "the mess" in my mind was that it would be useless to NCSoft because it couldn't be used for other games...now I'm hearing the opposite.   Or I think that's what I'm hearing...that can't be right, can it?

The whole code reuse thing is pure speculation that people are throwing out there as a possibility.

The one instance of code reuse that I think is likely is in the authentication code. I know for a fact that COH uses a modified version of the Lineage II authentication protocol to log in, so it's likely that component is built off of NCSoft's code rather than Cryptic's.

Beyond that, I doubt it. I think it's very unlikely that anyone currently working for NCSoft has even looked at the code, much less has any idea how it works. That's quite possibly part of the problem.

In order to offer it as part of the deal, they'd have to get experienced programmers to pick it apart and make a list of issues for the lawyers to vet. Things like proprietary info specific to NCSoft's server environment, commercial code licensed from third parties that needs to be accounted for, etc. Off the top of my head it's apparent from disassembling the binary that quite a few libraries are statically linked, an audit of those would need to be done to determine if they are allowed to redistribute them / transfer the license and under what conditions. They would also need to remove any pieces that can't be transferred, which would likely leave it in an unbuildable (though not necessarily unsalvagable) state. Things get murky if there are any instances of third-party code copied into the main source, and from what I hear the COH programmers looooved CTRL+C/CTRL+V.

Given that they don't have anyone on staff experienced with the code (and we can assume from dev statements that it's not well documented), that's a very big project, and it would take quite a lucrative offer to make it worth the cost of undertaking.

Alternatively, it could just be that parting with source code they own is something that they simply Do Not Do, Under Any Circumstance. It's not an uncommon attitude in the corporate software world. NCSoft has licensed binaries to people before -- several of their games in the European market are operated by third parties -- but they don't get access to the source and are dependent on NCSoft for patches and updates. As far as I know, they have never sold or licensed source code to anyone.

hopelives

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #962 on: September 04, 2014, 03:55:29 PM »
and the sun never DID move east to west or the moon for that matter.

  ah yes..can that be fixed ? lol, j/king ;)

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #963 on: September 04, 2014, 03:58:00 PM »
Personally, I think the original CoH base system is one thing you should NOT try to replicate. It was ugly as sin and made it a right chore to get anything decent looking.

You can do better, loads better. :p  Personally.. I kinda like how they do it in DCUO.  Just a collection of big empty rooms you can decorate how you like. Just don't gate the furnishings behind drops and let the users buy additional rooms to add on to it (including multiple levels).

Harpospoke

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #964 on: September 04, 2014, 04:00:28 PM »
It's a benefit and a curse. On the one hand, it's A LOT of time saved. We're not having to design a new world, and write all the stories. They already exist.

On the other hand... People know what the world is, and how things look. They've got a certain expectation of how things are.
I fully expect the first couple weeks of Revival's beta to be a FLOOD of bug reports that basically read "This sign post is supposed to be 4 further down the road. And the color of the sky isn't quite blue enough."
Hmmm....I'm kind of expecting and dare I say...looking forward to little changes like that.   Heck...even fairly big changes to how some things look wouldn't bother me.   Kinda like the different Captain America costumes in the three movies he's in....they all work for me.

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #965 on: September 04, 2014, 04:02:03 PM »
(How's your moving going?  What am I asking-- moving is always a major pain in the butt!  You poor thing, you should take a vacation once you're done....)

And as far as any voiceovers in APR go, I don't know that it'd be worth it in the end.  Do you know how Hellgate:  London's developers Flagship Studios, funded with mega millions and headed by former Blizzard folk, went down in a burning ball of flame?  They tried to do too much and make their game everything to everybody, nothing ever got finished, eventually they had to launch anyway and it all fell apart.

Just think about the work ahead for APR:  Trying to get all the zones, every NPC, every quest, every class and subclass and power set and costume piece and body shape in from Praetoria, the Rogue Isles and Paragon City.....  This took what, over 100 people at many points probably over a decade of full-time work (and probably longer days) to bring CoX to Issue 23?  Granted they were down to 15 people left I think when Cryptic split, but they were a lot larger than anything we've got going here for most of that decade and as Paragon Studios.  I'm not saying it won't ever get done (and I'm not saying it ever will either), but they had a lot more experience than most of us do here, and adding unnecessary extra burdens like voiceovers that may only rapidly become player annoyances down the road anyway seems detrimental.

Oh, and while I am trying to find my place in this potential APR outfit whether it winds up being eventual digital security, or menial, basic, repetitive tasking (copying missions over?) or what have you, I'd just like to ask:  Do we get our assets for Blender transitioning from the torrent download?  Let me dig around and try to find it.  NCSoft so nicely deleted CoX out of my NC Launcher and off my computer without my knowledge or consent right after the shutdown.  Will the Icon download help?  I had that on my PC after the shutdown but just reformatted earlier this week.

Well... So far... I've spent far too much time answering questions, and not enough packing! Ack! I'm not good at slowly working up to a move, lol.

I agree on the subject of voice overs. Especially when the same time and effort could instead be spent giving player's the ability to ride a Motorcycle, or add in new zones, new TFs. What about a Praetorian Seer Epic AT? More base items?

As for the torrent... It should just be the CoH client with ICON tossed in. Which is what I use to get my rips from, yes. There's a certain amount of setting up to get them however. Which is something I'll sit down and document later.
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Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #966 on: September 04, 2014, 04:03:40 PM »
and the sun never DID move east to west or the moon for that matter.

Coincidentally... Revival's sun also doesn't currently move east to west. It's moving NW to SE If memory serves.
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pinballdave

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #967 on: September 04, 2014, 04:04:21 PM »
Well... So far... I've spent far too much time answering questions, and not enough packing! Ack! I'm not good at slowly working up to a move, lol.

I agree on the subject of voice overs. Especially when the same time and effort could instead be spent giving player's the ability to ride a Motorcycle, or add in new zones, new TFs. What about a Praetorian Seer Epic AT? More base items?

As for the torrent... It should just be the CoH client with ICON tossed in. Which is what I use to get my rips from, yes. There's a certain amount of setting up to get them however. Which is something I'll sit down and document later.

Don't you mean ride on nemesis steam ponies?

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #968 on: September 04, 2014, 04:04:50 PM »
Coincidentally... Revival's sun also doesn't currently move east to west. It's moving NW to SE If memory serves.

You're gonna fix that, right? ;)

... AFTER you've finished your packing, though!

MM3squints

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #969 on: September 04, 2014, 04:09:01 PM »
Personally, I think the original CoH base system is one thing you should NOT try to replicate. It was ugly as sin and made it a right chore to get anything decent looking.

You can do better, loads better. :p  Personally.. I kinda like how they do it in DCUO.  Just a collection of big empty rooms you can decorate how you like. Just don't gate the furnishings behind drops and let the users buy additional rooms to add on to it (including multiple levels).

Its not ugly if you stack stuff :D. I liked it because you had the ability to stack items and make completely new and imaginative rooms. I seen stuff where people made penthouse, Pokemon Hospitals that look like a the real thing, I even recreated the USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) with complete flight deck and the illusion you are going downstairs to see the reactor room. DCUO base making doesn't offer stacking

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #970 on: September 04, 2014, 04:10:12 PM »
Hmmm....I'm kind of expecting and dare I say...looking forward to little changes like that.   Heck...even fairly big changes to how some things look wouldn't bother me.   Kinda like the different Captain America costumes in the three movies he's in....they all work for me.
Don't expect Revival to be an exact Carbon copy of City of Heroes. Obviously, It would be madly impractical for the team to ensure that every little thing like sign posts are pixel perfectly placed.
There might be other changes to. Like..You ever notice how there's no real hospital in the city? Those little medical clinics are fine for Medivacing a bruised up Her...but how many civilians do you think have their babies there?

There's not going to be grand sweeping changes like the AP Revamp, or the DA makeover. But do expect to see some stuff here and there.
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Harpospoke

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #971 on: September 04, 2014, 04:11:26 PM »
The whole code reuse thing is pure speculation that people are throwing out there as a possibility.

The one instance of code reuse that I think is likely is in the authentication code. I know for a fact that COH uses a modified version of the Lineage II authentication protocol to log in, so it's likely that component is built off of NCSoft's code rather than Cryptic's.

Beyond that, I doubt it. I think it's very unlikely that anyone currently working for NCSoft has even looked at the code, much less has any idea how it works. That's quite possibly part of the problem.

In order to offer it as part of the deal, they'd have to get experienced programmers to pick it apart and make a list of issues for the lawyers to vet. Things like proprietary info specific to NCSoft's server environment, commercial code licensed from third parties that needs to be accounted for, etc. Off the top of my head it's apparent from disassembling the binary that quite a few libraries are statically linked, an audit of those would need to be done to determine if they are allowed to redistribute them / transfer the license and under what conditions. They would also need to remove any pieces that can't be transferred, which would likely leave it in an unbuildable (though not necessarily unsalvagable) state. Things get murky if there are any instances of third-party code copied into the main source, and from what I hear the COH programmers looooved CTRL+C/CTRL+V.

Given that they don't have anyone on staff experienced with the code (and we can assume from dev statements that it's not well documented), that's a very big project, and it would take quite a lucrative offer to make it worth the cost of undertaking.

Alternatively, it could just be that parting with source code they own is something that they simply Do Not Do, Under Any Circumstance. It's not an uncommon attitude in the corporate software world. NCSoft has licensed binaries to people before -- several of their games in the European market are operated by third parties -- but they don't get access to the source and are dependent on NCSoft for patches and updates. As far as I know, they have never sold or licensed source code to anyone.
Thanks to you as well, CW.

If I can sum up the first possibility:

Yes the CoH code is a mess that no other game has any use for.
But mixed in with that mess are some things that NCSoft uses for other games and they (understandably) don't want to hand those little bits out to people.

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #972 on: September 04, 2014, 04:15:05 PM »
Don't you mean ride on nemesis steam ponies?
Yes. Yes, I do.
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Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #973 on: September 04, 2014, 04:16:16 PM »
You're gonna fix that, right? ;)

... AFTER you've finished your packing, though!

It's just something I haven't bothered to get around to. It's a simple matter of changing the Rotation value of the blueprint that drives the day/night cycle. ;P That's a fix for lackeys.
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FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #974 on: September 04, 2014, 04:17:00 PM »
Don't expect Revival to be an exact Carbon copy of City of Heroes. Obviously, It would be madly impractical for the team to ensure that every little thing like sign posts are pixel perfectly placed.
There might be other changes to. Like..You ever notice how there's no real hospital in the city? Those little medical clinics are fine for Medivacing a bruised up Her...but how many civilians do you think have their babies there?

There's not going to be grand sweeping changes like the AP Revamp, or the DA makeover. But do expect to see some stuff here and there.

You know what I always felt CoH was missing in the zones? Ambience!  It never really FELT like a real city... Starting from the looks and working all the way down to dogs barking, traffic jams, kids playing in parks, WEATHER!!!

Now I know people would complain if you remodelled places so they actually looked more like a real city (including more realistic roads and hills etc), but it'd sure help the ambience!

Imagine playing CoH in a zone that looked something like those in such games as Watch_Dogs or GTA V...

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #975 on: September 04, 2014, 04:17:56 PM »
It's just something I haven't bothered to get around to. It's a simple matter of changing the Rotation value of the blueprint that drives the day/night cycle. ;P That's a fix for lackeys.

That was probably Paragon's reasoning too, and thus it got forgotten about! ;)

Dot the i's and cross the t's, dear! :p

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #976 on: September 04, 2014, 04:18:44 PM »
Nate and I do have to make sure that if this deal falls through... We don't want to have a mob of people with fire and pitchforks calling for one, or both, of our heads because people spent money.

Personally, If people want to learn Unreal Engine 4...Go and buy it. Drop 20 bucks, then cancel your sub. I encourage people learning this stuff. It's a lot of fun, and you learn a lot about how/why certain things are they way they are in games.
However, if you're buying it because you want to contribute to Revival. Wait. I'd hate to have people pony up cash, just for us to get a no-go from above. That is only partially due to the above listed fear of Pitchfork-wielding mobs.

I will warn you, however. Something nobody thought to tell me when I got into learning Game creation. Get into it far enough, and you'll never look at games the same way. You start to look at how you think things were built, and how you might build them better/differently. Seriously, I look at games and I like...see Wireframes and scripts, lol.

Do you have a rough(very rough) estimate for how long it should be for a deal decision? ie weeks, months, ets or will everyone refreshing this conversation cause tony to implode from bandwith costs?  :o

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #977 on: September 04, 2014, 04:19:03 PM »
Personally, I think the original CoH base system is one thing you should NOT try to replicate. It was ugly as sin and made it a right chore to get anything decent looking.

You can do better, loads better. :p  Personally.. I kinda like how they do it in DCUO.  Just a collection of big empty rooms you can decorate how you like. Just don't gate the furnishings behind drops and let the users buy additional rooms to add on to it (including multiple levels).

It certainly could have used improvement. The ability to stack and clip things, I think, are crucial.
and I seriously always wanted multiple floors. That would have been so amazing.
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MM3squints

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #978 on: September 04, 2014, 04:20:22 PM »
You know what I always felt CoH was missing in the zones? Ambience!  It never really FELT like a real city... Starting from the looks and working all the way down to dogs barking, traffic jams, kids playing in parks, WEATHER!!!

Now I know people would complain if you remodelled places so they actually looked more like a real city (including more realistic roads and hills etc), but it'd sure help the ambience!

Imagine playing CoH in a zone that looked something like those in such games as Watch_Dogs or GTA V...

Speaking of stuff that I felt was missing freeways outside of Skyway. Just seems odd. Not saying put in freeway in other zones because I guess Skyway Freeway is what gives Skyway it's identity, but just seems off xD

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #979 on: September 04, 2014, 04:21:59 PM »
That was probably Paragon's reasoning too, and thus it got forgotten about! ;)

Dot the i's and cross the t's, dear! :p

For paragon I'm sure it was more a matter of not knowing WHAT code controlled the sun...
If they did, I'm sure they tried to fix it at some point...Just to find that suddenly the sun was a rock, Bases didn't work, every mission had 10 pancake rooms, cat's and dogs got along, and the sky was a picture of Spock.
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