And the mask comes off.

[Zombie Hustler]

Look for offices that are unloading computers that are just out of warranty.

Universities are another good place; at least once upon a time most had surplus sales via their property management departments of old computers and equipment. They may have started to outsource this sort of thing since the last time I spent any significant amount of time at a university, though (last worked for one over 6 years ago)

EDIT: Also, publicsurplus.com is a good place to look.

[BadWolf]

I also think MMOs need to look at this from a new perspective.  Most evidence suggests that players blast through new content in a matter of days, some just hours, others weeks.  This simply ISN'T a sustainable way to keep players' interest without forcing them to "grind", which turns off a sizeable number of players.

But by the same token, "grinding" is exactly what a lot of players look for. It is not a coincidence that the most successful MMO in the history of the world is one that explicitly encourages you to reach the level cap quickly and then spend weeks and months and years working at tiny, incremental improvements to the efficacy of your character. It is something that a lot of players look for, and I have first-hand experience of trying to convince people to come from EQ or WoW during the pre-Incarnate days only to be asked, "But what do you do once you hit 50?" Quite literally, they had already mentally skipped the entire leveling process in their heads as inconsequential and wanted to know what the next step was. And when told that you started over again at 1 with a different character, they lost interest in even trying the game.

I understand that everyone here has a hard time wrapping their heads around that, myself included. But we are a self-selected audience of people who wanted what CoH was selling. The larger world of "MMO players" wanted endgame content, and Positron recognized that and gave it to them. I don't think he was mistaken, either in recognizing that deficiency in the game or in working to fix it. If anything, I think he was about twenty issues too late.

[opprime2828]

But by the same token, "grinding" is exactly what a lot of players look for. It is not a coincidence that the most successful MMO in the history of the world is one that explicitly encourages you to reach the level cap quickly and then spend weeks and months and years working at tiny, incremental improvements to the efficacy of your character.

...

I understand that everyone here has a hard time wrapping their heads around that, myself included. But we are a self-selected audience of people who wanted what CoH was selling. The larger world of "MMO players" wanted endgame content, and Positron recognized that and gave it to them. I don't think he was mistaken, either in recognizing that deficiency in the game or in working to fix it. If anything, I think he was about twenty issues too late.

 
But I addressed that point, exactly, and said that a wise designer tries to maintain as wide a base as possible, appeal to "grinders", "alters", "RPers" etc. as much as possible.  City of Heroes was doing this fairly well.
 
And lets face it, while WoW had success with the grind, most of Blizzards other attempts to recreate WoW have been less than successful, even when incorporating such established communities as Star Wars fans. 
 
WoW was an outlier in many ways, and as you point out, WoW pretty much has the "grind" community down pat.  Would a developer of a new/competing MMO be wise to try and dip in to WoW's established base, or try to appeal to another base that isn't as interested in the "grind"?  There's not right answer to that, but it does warrant some thought. 

[LaughingAlex]

 
I totally agree with you on this.  Like I said, I don't think Matt was -wrong- to say what he said, though I very much disagree with his conclusions, but I do think it presented alting in a way that was easily understood to be a very serious negative, even though he gave lip service to "but don't get me wrong, I love you guys." 
 
I also think MMOs need to look at this from a new perspective.  Most evidence suggests that players blast through new content in a matter of days, some just hours, others weeks.  This simply ISN'T a sustainable way to keep players' interest without forcing them to "grind", which turns off a sizeable number of players.
 
You really need to balance replayability and differentiation with continued new content. In short, you want to really try to appeal to as many types of players as you can, and I think CoH did an excellent job at that, once they introduced Incarnate content, even though I don't think it was perfect by any means.

I tried playing CO till a few months ago, the numerous things they did wrong drove me away.  Of the three and a half thousand hours I played, I could say I only fully enjoyed 20% of that.  Because nothing new would come along, then they only did end game.  I tried a variety of playstyles, and found the game just got to boring, I was spending more time trying to roleplay and even then, I didn't feel I was doing anything.  The game felt more and more shallow as playstyles were removed, rather than added.  I honestly began feeling I was wasting my time since anything I did would get nerfed to near uselessness.

The other 80% of my time in CO?  Just being logged in, watching youtube videos and maybe roleplaying.  Buuut mostly watching youtube videos while I talked with others.

I was playing the same build over and over again when the dodge nerf came and eventually, I began to fall asleep while actually playing the game and while fighting mobs.  The game got so boring for me.

In fact I actually began playing skyrim, more, and far more, and dreaded logging on to CO for roleplaying.

City of heroes?  I would not be surprised if I had about 7000 hours, easily, and enjoyed 95% of it.  I wish steam would display that, but I was always playing different builds all the time in that game.  From the year 2008 to 2012 I had logged more hours than I can count.  I would play so much in my freetime, go figure.  I wasn't anywhere near as fearful of being nerfed.  I was experimenting with new ideas all the time and still knew I had many more to try.  And the devs wouldn't nerf things so much all the time, only very, very rarely.  So there was no fear of being gimped like I was eventually in CO.

And the game was still challenging in a good way.

[LaughingAlex]

But by the same token, "grinding" is exactly what a lot of players look for. It is not a coincidence that the most successful MMO in the history of the world is one that explicitly encourages you to reach the level cap quickly and then spend weeks and months and years working at tiny, incremental improvements to the efficacy of your character. It is something that a lot of players look for, and I have first-hand experience of trying to convince people to come from EQ or WoW during the pre-Incarnate days only to be asked, "But what do you do once you hit 50?" Quite literally, they had already mentally skipped the entire leveling process in their heads as inconsequential and wanted to know what the next step was. And when told that you started over again at 1 with a different character, they lost interest in even trying the game.

I understand that everyone here has a hard time wrapping their heads around that, myself included. But we are a self-selected audience of people who wanted what CoH was selling. The larger world of "MMO players" wanted endgame content, and Positron recognized that and gave it to them. I don't think he was mistaken, either in recognizing that deficiency in the game or in working to fix it. If anything, I think he was about twenty issues too late.

I don't even consider those players rpg players because of that.  They have gotten into their heads that end game and more "power" and more "power" is the be all end all.  Honestly, when I think about that, this makes me think less of these kinds of players.  Because while I didn't mind incarnate content for example, I also enjoyed leveling up and seeing how other things played.  These kinds of players?  Power is the be-all-end-all and the amount of it is the be-all-end-all.  They'd make horrible story writers, though i'm sure that'd be ok for a typical anime(bad one, not good one).

In fact these kinds of players enjoy games that let them get all the way to infinite levels with ever decreasing challenge.  But they hate experimenting to, as they'll often ask other players to make the character for them, rather than figure out and think for themselves.  In fact they'll even say at times "You should only go for this build on class X" outright disregarding if you either found a build someone else came up with or you came up with on your own.  It's almost like, these people don't really know what fun is, they are more playing the games to feel powerful rather than simply have fun.  They only enjoy the power trip, but never actually, well, coming up with any ideas.

I was asked questions like that about CO.  Course, CO had only one leveling path, sigh.

[LaughingAlex]

Thinking about it, I think alot of mmorpg players could use a serious deconstruction introduction to them.  One that really, really twists things on them to make them really look at themselves.  There is a game for shooters that does that, specifically targetting the call of duty player base and the general lack of story in games like call of duty.  Spec Ops: The line does that.

Heres a scene, I shared this on youtube on I think CoH Survivors, in response to someones feelings about the end of the last incarnate trial, the magistrum trial, we did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7TaLjdXMc

This is one of the CRUELEST moments in gaming history.  Heres a breakdown;

Player gets to fire a white phosphorus motor: Oh hell yes!  Lets kill these assholes and BURN them to death!  Granted, your rail roaded into this.  This is true of the game in general, one of its main points; the lack of story in modern shooters is your being railroaded all the time.

*player begins firing morters onto "rogue" americans*

As the first part fineshes, you can see Walkers uncaring face, literally reflecting off of the screen.  This is the protagonist, mind you.

Afterwards, the game makes you walk through the carnage you caused.  You see many guys who've been skinned alive, crawling in absolute pain and the guys following Walker are horrified, Walker however is like any common player character, uncaring.

Then the cutscene that changes any sane player comes up.  A solder askes "Why?" in absolute pain.  He's dying and in agony.  Walker looks at the screen, you, the player, saying "You brought this on yourself".  He's not saying that to the soldier, he's saying that directly to you, the player.  Then the awful truth is revealed.  Don't watch the video if you got a weak stomach.

Anyhow, I think mmorpgs could seriously benefit from a deconstruction title to point out what they are really doing; they are going over the top on just giving the player more and more power but they are never, really role playing games.  Your always some side or another but your just mindlessly doing quests all the time, you never see the consequences of your actions or anything.  Heck, I'd say some of the best quests in CoX, amazingly, were perhaps the ones that were especially dark; the vigilante to villain missions.  But I think they could have been better. 

"Oh awesome, you got that increase in power, those precious experience points, now see what the cost of getting it was, you got an innocent person killed with so much pain, jackass(aimed at the reader for effect)."

*Then shows the player just what the hell he really did*

A sane person would be a little bothered.  And honestly, should be in a way with things like that.  Thats good writing for you, it really gives you emotions to think about.

The same can be said of heroic things to, players have to feel it, truely.  But then a deconstruction title wouldn't do well if it was just goody tooshoes.

Edit: Of course it'd be hard to really drive the point, one would need to be creative to.

[Arcana]

Regardless. my point was that it's entirely understandable that many players took his article to mean he didn't like Alts, and thought a good MMO would really have little to no need for them, given both his rhetorical structure and diction in that article.  Maybe it was just poorly written and wasn't what was intended, but to pin that on the readers instead of the writer is....misguided.

As I used to say on the game forums, extend the benefit of the doubt you wish to receive.  No one survives uncooperative readers: no one.

[LaughingAlex]

As I used to say on the game forums, extend the benefit of the doubt you wish to receive.  No one survives uncooperative readers: no one.

I agree with ya there...the best written messages can at times be misinterpreted.

[Arcana]

I don't even consider those players rpg players because of that.  They have gotten into their heads that end game and more "power" and more "power" is the be all end all.  Honestly, when I think about that, this makes me think less of these kinds of players.  Because while I didn't mind incarnate content for example, I also enjoyed leveling up and seeing how other things played.  These kinds of players?  Power is the be-all-end-all and the amount of it is the be-all-end-all.  They'd make horrible story writers, though i'm sure that'd be ok for a typical anime(bad one, not good one).

No one is all one thing (at least, few are).  I liked leveling my alts.  I also had my power-mad days.  Enjoying the end-game power pursuit grind-fest wasn't mutually exclusive from enjoying the more conventional levels of play.

On the day they announced shutdown, my lowest active alt (meaning, an alt I was playing several times a week minimum) was in the teens (a water blaster) and my highest was my main that was running tons of incarnate trials, already had multiple tier 4s in every incarnate slot, and was still trying to make more Lore pets.

I actually believe there were a lot of players that were generalists in that regard; willing and able to enjoy almost any mode of gameplay in the game.  I even occasionally liked to PvP, just to PvP (just to get my ass kicked usually, but I did get the PvP badge with no farming so I did win at least sometimes).

[LaughingAlex]

No one is all one thing (at least, few are).  I liked leveling my alts.  I also had my power-mad days.  Enjoying the end-game power pursuit grind-fest wasn't mutually exclusive from enjoying the more conventional levels of play.

On the day they announced shutdown, my lowest active alt (meaning, an alt I was playing several times a week minimum) was in the teens (a water blaster) and my highest was my main that was running tons of incarnate trials, already had multiple tier 4s in every incarnate slot, and was still trying to make more Lore pets.

I actually believe there were a lot of players that were generalists in that regard; willing and able to enjoy almost any mode of gameplay in the game.  I even occasionally liked to PvP, just to PvP (just to get my ass kicked usually, but I did get the PvP badge with no farming so I did win at least sometimes).

Go figure.  I was pretty balanced to.  I had lowbies and I had my high level characters.  I tried sets out for science, know?  The only people I was really targeting with that statement were those who'd instantly move on if they saw there was no end game.  Some gamers, for some players power is in a way the big deal for them.  Heck, even I can be that way, somewhat, but I don't enjoy losing challenge.  But I see beyond just the number.  In fact, I don't actually care about bigger, and bigger numbers.  When there is to much obsession with numbers, I feel, in a games development, particularly always increasing the level cap endlessly and then upping the damage numbers, I'm often left "ok what does level really mean then if the cap is always increasing?  Like your devaluing individual levels".

I just feel that way about some people.  As I said, I was targeting the people who left the game when they were told there wasn't an end game.  I remember one guy likewise who hated the level cap of guild wars, it was all he cared about.  Every time he'd log on after factions came out, the only question he'd ask was "did they increase the level cap" and I told him "No and they don't plan to".  He'd log off after.  Every time.  All he cared about was power.

[Baja]

Go figure.  I was pretty balanced to.  I had lowbies and I had my high level characters.  I tried sets out for science, know?  The only people I was really targeting with that statement were those who'd instantly move on if they saw there was no end game.  Some gamers, for some players power is in a way the big deal for them.  Heck, even I can be that way, somewhat, but I don't enjoy losing challenge.  But I see beyond just the number.  In fact, I don't actually care about bigger, and bigger numbers.  When there is to much obsession with numbers, I feel, in a games development, particularly always increasing the level cap endlessly and then upping the damage numbers, I'm often left "ok what does level really mean then if the cap is always increasing?  Like your devaluing individual levels".

I just feel that way about some people.  As I said, I was targeting the people who left the game when they were told there wasn't an end game.  I remember one guy likewise who hated the level cap of guild wars, it was all he cared about.  Every time he'd log on after factions came out, the only question he'd ask was "did they increase the level cap" and I told him "No and they don't plan to".  He'd log off after.  Every time.  All he cared about was power.

I agree with you for a lot of reasons. I've come to despise the "WoW" mentality. It basically encourages hours played vs enjoyment/skill factors. Tera online was supposed to be a game that focused on skill rather than grinding, but wouldn't you know it the developers started listening to a bunch of WoW guild members saying "moar grind less aiming plox." I wanted to drive there and slap them with the product they ended up releasing.

I suppose this is why I loved CoH for so long, it really focused on fun rather than the whole "hey look at my fancy grindables." It's like okay I get it you have a lot of free time, that's great >.> unfortunately I have a job that gives me maybe 3 hours to kill during weekdays and sat/Sunday off, I really don't have the time or desire to compete in this race.

If I wanted fun I'd play CoH, if I wanted proof of who was the better player I would load up Starcraft 2/Dota 2/LoL something that focuses on actual player abilities.

[ivanhedgehog]

As I used to say on the game forums, extend the benefit of the doubt you wish to receive.  No one survives uncooperative readers: no one.

I also feel he was talking perfect world. If he could go back and rewrite the whole game type stuff. I know there was stuff they would have dearly liked to change..but that wouldnt fly with their player base. Hiney sight is 2020 and all that.

[Arcana]

Go figure.  I was pretty balanced to.  I had lowbies and I had my high level characters.  I tried sets out for science, know?  The only people I was really targeting with that statement were those who'd instantly move on if they saw there was no end game.

Well yeah, but most of those guys were gone by I4, when it became clear that Hamidon was the only end game the devs had the resources to make at the time.

Besides the "no end game, split immediately" group there were players willing to alt for variety, but for whom even alting became a form of grind because the difference between alts wasn't high enough to consistently provide the level of gameplay variety they wanted, and for whom alting was one activity that needed to be balanced with more depth-oriented character progression in the long run.  For those people, higher order progression first in the form of the invention system and second in the form of the incarnate system was a god-send.  It wasn't that they were just passing time until the end game arrived, it was that the end game provided a counterbalance to alt-leveling that made the game more enjoyable overall, and without which many people eventually got bored and quit.

On the subject of numbers, I do think there were players that were too obsessed with numbers to the exclusion of all else, but I think they were the extreme minority.  I think many players misunderstood the fascination with and discussion surrounding numbers as being focused on the numbers, when it was just that numbers were the language of choice for higher powered progression discussions.  For example, the pylon challenge boiled down to a single number: time to defeat.  And it often looked like the players involved were jockeying numbers in their build to get the best (lowest) number in that test.  But for most players involved the numbers were a means to an end of taking their knowledge and skill in building strong characters and giving them a target to focus on.  It was a way to take hypothetical build discussions and prove their worth in an actual scenario where every element of the build from damage output to defensive strength to endurance management had to be balanced in a practical way. 

Believe me there were a lot of pseudo-numbers posters on the forums that made a lot of claims experienced players knew were complete crap, but the discussion required to prove it would sail over the heads of most of the readers of the thread.  That can be very frustrating.  Being able to prove the theory with an unimpeachable practical result was very attractive to many players who otherwise enjoyed discussing build theory.

But at the end of the day, I think most min/maxers weren't really interested in the numbers for their own sake.  They were interested in being able to log into the game and do something interesting or unique with those numbers, with their characters.  And that was part of the attraction of having an "end-game" available which was less end game and more "higher-game."  It was constantly opening doors to more possibilities.  Yes, those possibilities were usually ultimately about more firepower and more staying power, but not always.  For myself, it was about pushing the envelope of gameplay experience.  That's why I tended to focus on improving the strength of my blaster more than, say, my fire tanker.  My fire tanker could farm the dickens past my blaster, but improving that build to do that, only a little faster, wasn't as interesting as taking my blaster and transforming her over time into an ever increasingly powerful energy cannon that could also stay alive, and explicitly through active blasting (knockback is bad?  tell it to the enemy critters I threw into that tree).

[AlienOne]

there were players willing to alt for variety, but for whom even alting became a form of grind because the difference between alts wasn't high enough to consistently provide the level of gameplay variety they wanted, and for whom alting was one activity that needed to be balanced with more depth-oriented character progression in the long run.  For those people, higher order progression first in the form of the invention system and second in the form of the incarnate system was a god-send.  It wasn't that they were just passing time until the end game arrived, it was that the end game provided a counterbalance to alt-leveling that made the game more enjoyable overall, and without which many people eventually got bored and quit.

...

But at the end of the day, I think most min/maxers weren't really interested in the numbers for their own sake.  They were interested in being able to log into the game and do something interesting or unique with those numbers, with their characters.  And that was part of the attraction of having an "end-game" available which was less end game and more "higher-game."  It was constantly opening doors to more possibilities.  Yes, those possibilities were usually ultimately about more firepower and more staying power, but not always.  For myself, it was about pushing the envelope of gameplay experience.  That's why I tended to focus on improving the strength of my blaster more than, say, my fire tanker.  My fire tanker could farm the dickens past my blaster, but improving that build to do that, only a little faster, wasn't as interesting as taking my blaster and transforming her over time into an ever increasingly powerful energy cannon that could also stay alive, and explicitly through active blasting (knockback is bad?  tell it to the enemy critters I threw into that tree).

I fell directly into this group--specifically the invention system/stay-in-Mids-for-the-same-amount-of-time-I-spent-in-the-game group, and it kept me around for YEARS longer than I ever stayed in any other game (with the possible exception of Diablo 2--but, the same concept applies in those types of games too...constantly striving to be "extremely powerful" by small margins--and by experimentation)...

[Scendera]

I can safely say the worst part of building any given PC is the power supply's installation.

I'd rather install a thousand power supplies than one mobo, lol.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

Believe me there were a lot of pseudo-numbers posters on the forums that made a lot of claims experienced players knew were complete crap, but the discussion required to prove it would sail over the heads of most of the readers of the thread.  That can be very frustrating.  Being able to prove the theory with an unimpeachable practical result was very attractive to many players who otherwise enjoyed discussing build theory.

i remember you running the numbers for someone who claimed their Dark/Dark Defender could solo Romulus on the ITF in four minutes. No matter how many people explained using basic math what the actual numbers were and how implausible, if not outright impossible, their claim was they kept insisting that they routinely did it without cheating, but refused to provide any proof. It was almost impressive in a way.

[LaughingAlex]

But at the end of the day, I think most min/maxers weren't really interested in the numbers for their own sake.  They were interested in being able to log into the game and do something interesting or unique with those numbers, with their characters.  And that was part of the attraction of having an "end-game" available which was less end game and more "higher-game."  It was constantly opening doors to more possibilities.  Yes, those possibilities were usually ultimately about more firepower and more staying power, but not always.  For myself, it was about pushing the envelope of gameplay experience.  That's why I tended to focus on improving the strength of my blaster more than, say, my fire tanker.  My fire tanker could farm the dickens past my blaster, but improving that build to do that, only a little faster, wasn't as interesting as taking my blaster and transforming her over time into an ever increasingly powerful energy cannon that could also stay alive, and explicitly through active blasting (knockback is bad?  tell it to the enemy critters I threw into that tree).

As a min maxer I was somewhat that way, I didn't go for the absolute highest numbers on every character, but instead went for practical efficiency in many cases.  A good example would have been my kin/energy defender.  She had enough recharge reduction to get triple-stack fulcrum shift.  I didn't do that using any purple IOs though, I did that through a lot of balancing of IO's, and also made use of leadership as well as very liberal use of siphon speed.  It was me getting those speeds though, in a way, rather than the build I made, because if I didn't make such insane use of siphon speed I would not have gotten such results.

One character I did purple out, was my fortunata, but I did so with cheaper purple IO sets, such as the confuse and hold IO set.  I think if I recall I had one purple set that was in the billion influence range(about 300 mil per piece).  She had perma mind link, which was essential, somewhat, but it wasn't just her near soft capped defenses that really kept her alive, it was stacking large amounts of -recharge, Aura of Confusion, Total Domination, and Psychic Wail that kept her alive.  Incarnate powers were more chosen for pro longevity most of the time.  Incarnate trials I usually brought diamagnetic interface, as the -tohit compensated for the increased to hit.

My storm summoner was likewise an...interesting example.  I didn't IO her anywhere near as heavily, but I didn't have to so much.  It was more how I used the storm powers rather than configuring her IO's, and I was pretty much able to pulverize groups of mobs as they'd not get the chance to retaliate.  She was a cheap character to design.  I found time manipulation equally cheap to min/max, you didn't need defense IOs at all to get soft cap defense with that set(except maaaybe a mastermind(and no, just soft capping smash/lethal/energy doesn't count, I'm talking soft capping everything), but I know for sure a corruptor could soft cap with some pool powers, and I know for sure a defender can soft cap with just farsight and power build up and be over the soft cap).

I think the genious was more, you did get more power but more in the form of the customization options coming across.  It wasn't full on increasing the level cap all the time but just giving people more ways to make an effective character. 

[Brigadine]

Buying computer parts makes me cry. So- Much- Money... that I don't have.

[FloatingFatMan]

Buying computer parts makes me cry. So- Much- Money... that I don't have.

Be happy. Yesterday I went to get a puncture repaired on my car, and left with 4 new tyres that I couldn't afford! :O

[KennonGL]

After going over Matt's statements again, I can pretty easily take them in either direction.

Either Matt thought alt'ing was bad thing overall and shouldn't be a focus of the game,
or he thought that alt'ing wasn't bad in and of itself, but brought up other design issues
that made things harder for the developers.

Without a follow-on conversation for clarification, I don't think we'll ever be 100% certain
(unless Arcana feels like calling him up and asking  ).

The fact remains though, that CoX was/is the single most Alt friendly and Altitis encouraging
MMO ever made.  Heck, the sheer number of possible powerset combinations practically screams
for making multiple characters.

In every other MMO I've ever played (from UO onwards), I'll make 1 or 2 characters at most.  In very
rare circumstances I might even make 3 (one for each of the trinity).  But that's it.  And most likely
characters 2 or 3 will never see the level cap as I'll be getting bored with them long before.

Pretty quickly, typically under 6 months, I'm bored with the game and leaving it behind.  I played CoX
almost every day (at least 300+ days a year) from just after I2 until the shut-down.  That is simply
unheard of for me, and I've never been able to feel as comfortable in any game as I did in Paragon.

Admittedly, I'm not a big-numbers-raid-raid-raid type of player.  I find those gigantic raids more annoying
than fun.  I prefer small groups of friends or even solo, and I'd rather be teaming because I *want* to
team over I *have* to team.  So for me, CoX was a near perfect fit.