Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1712219 times)

Fleur_uk

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #520 on: September 02, 2014, 05:35:34 PM »
I've tried it and also tried three different programs that bring the start menu and desktop back, and I still don't care for it. I think it's a FABULOUS tablet interface (and if I can ever afford the Surface Pro 3, I'll certainly have Win 8.1 on it), but between Win 7 and 8, Win 7 is the clear winner for desktop users--especially for desktop users like me who own hundreds of PC games (ranging from 1998 releases to today) and have gotten them all to somehow finally work on Win 7. Sorry, but I won't be migrating over to 8 anytime in the near (or far) future. I'm happy you like it, but it's not everything to everyone.

This^^ Tried it and hated,loathed,curses it  >:(

But to each their own :) I'm also a happy 7 user and will be until Win 9  ;)

Fleur_uk

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #521 on: September 02, 2014, 05:37:45 PM »
I think an FAQ sticky for this would be really helpful.

Mint idea :)

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #522 on: September 02, 2014, 05:46:50 PM »
I've tried it and also tried three different programs that bring the start menu and desktop back, and I still don't care for it. I think it's a FABULOUS tablet interface (and if I can ever afford the Surface Pro 3, I'll certainly have Win 8.1 on it), but between Win 7 and 8, Win 7 is the clear winner for desktop users--especially for desktop users like me who own hundreds of PC games (ranging from 1998 releases to today) and have gotten them all to somehow finally work on Win 7. Sorry, but I won't be migrating over to 8 anytime in the near (or far) future. I'm happy you like it, but it's not everything to everyone.

Please guys... This is not the place for that particular argument...

Ironwolf

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #523 on: September 02, 2014, 05:47:00 PM »
Actually there’s a lot more that can be said on the points you raised (although I admire your ability to gloss over any and all criticism with a stroke of the Rainbow Brite wand):

1)   MWM didn’t know Unreal 3 engine wasn’t MMO-tech friendly (at least that reason wasn’t clearly stated when they announced the switch to UE4 which came *after* the Kickstarter campaign had already successfully concluded. If they knew prior to the campaign that UE3 wasn’t the right tool but they went ahead with marketing the campaign as a UE3 tool… (while *also* knowing that they had jumpstarted a renew discussion with NCsoft to buy back the CoH IP) well, that opens up a whole new can of worms. That said, I think your spin on these events very unlikely and/or didn’t happen. What I think is more likely is that the MWM team made the decision to switch to UE4 later (and post Kickstarter award) because the UE team saw they’d gotten $600k cash in the Kickstarter campaign and wanted a piece of that action – so why not make the suggestion to the team to upgrade?

2)    MWM isn’t a fully-staffed, self-reliant resource company; it is (or was) a woman-owned, small-business and loosely organized start-up company that is completely dependent on its volunteers to get the job done. How a “company” dependent on volunteers to get one project up and running (CoT) can suddenly think themselves successfully aligned/fully staffed (albeit with part-time volunteers) and resourced to take on a *second* MMO-driven product (even if its CoH revived) using a second and wholly separate fundraising opportunity without publicly acknowledging how they’re going to pay for the pre-negotiated “doable” rate that NCsoft is supposedly comfortable with (but then there goes Warcabbit saying they’ll need fundraising for new servers, networking, etc. on top of producing the money that actually *buys* the IP itself)… that’s not a company with good business sense or a detailed 5-year plan. That’s a bunch of guys flying by the seat of their pants trying to wing this (and maybe take some cash/bonus IT equipment/career development training home on the side, or hopefully get bought out by a bigger game developer/publisher down the road which is another great way to cash in).

3)   Like everyone here, I love CoH and I *want* to believe that the IP can be purchased, the engine licensed, and everything will be happy, hunky dorey come login day – but that’s a lot of blind faith to have in one company (let alone a volunteer-based company) and I’m just not that naive (stupid? yes; naive? no...). Opportunities for fiscal mismanagement come fast and often (even when started with the best of intentions) and that’s not cause to always see everything branded “ Save CoH” as only a good thing. In theory, yes it’s great news; in practical execution, those “i”s had better be dotted and every “T” crossed” on the business operations plan before any money ever changes hands.

Bottom line: there’s good reason to be happy if NCsoft is opening the door to discussions again (regardless of whomever they speak to – and it’s sad to think Brian Clayton’s team came so very close only to lose out because they didn’t want to license the engine -- *if* that was the real reason why their negotiations fell apart) but there’s also good reason to be cautious, reasonably skeptical and ask the tough, sobering questions which can still keep these projects on the road to potential future success. This is a publicly funded initiative, after all, so while folks can yell in another thread “YEAH, BUT WHAT DID YOU DO TO HELP?!” the answer is – we helped contribute the money required to make (COT/COH) happen (which you couldn't and still can't do without the fan base's financial support) ---- and now I say to the MWM team – good job getting on getting NCsoft to open this door again; good luck developing not one but two MMO IP’s simultaneously with a part-time volunteer staff, and most importantly --- in the immortal words of RuPaul herself…

“...DON’T F*CK IT UP.”

I have some misgivings that are quite a bit different. Irishgirl is not related to MWM in her APR effort. CoT is the main product of MWM. Nate and a couple of other guys are those who had the contacts and resources to enter the negotiations. Getting the IP for one project and a different company/group getting the IP for their project is definitely not a bad thing.

My issues are now Irishgirl is about to be thrown to the sharks. I hope she can get some direction on a business manager because in my dealings on the original project 3 or 4 very unscrupulous people tried to get a foot in the door. She will need help in programming but also with business acumen.

This is a VERY cutthroat business and with a high potential of failure for the best run companies. I am excited but also prudent. I have approached Tony V to ask Irishgirl if she wants a forum section for her APR effort here or on a completely different site? It is time to organize the hordes of willing helpers - but also to direct them in meaningful ways. I have a lot of questions on Unreal 4.

Rubberlad - UnReal 3 does not have native MMO support - it can be added on as a bolt on effort. However UnReal 4 it is integrated and the timing was such very little time would be lost in porting assets from UR3 to UR4 compared to having to either write the code or pay someone to write them for UR3.

The Engine in UR4 is far superior and has many additional features. Features that make developing far faster:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvfn1p92_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AMY7I_eHjk

In the Tech Demo look at the Cave section! Wow!

AlienOne

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #524 on: September 02, 2014, 05:54:07 PM »
Please guys... This is not the place for that particular argument...

It's also not the place for comments about whether someone you don't know really loved the game....or the place to post about My Little Pony.... or the place to talk about pancakes....or the place to discuss whether or not you liked Champions Online.....or the place....well, you get the idea.

Simply put, this will happen regardless of whether or not you like it.

An active community who will have to wait a long, long, long time to get back in the game they love will eventually turn to other discussions/speculation to pass the time.

*shrug*
"What COH did was to show [developers of other] MMOs what they could be like if they gave up on controlling everything in the game, and just made it something great to play."  - Johnny Joy Bringer

MWRuger

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #525 on: September 02, 2014, 05:54:49 PM »

My issues are now Irishgirl is about to be thrown to the sharks. I hope she can get some direction on a business manager because in my dealings on the original project 3 or 4 very unscrupulous people tried to get a foot in the door. She will need help in programming but also with business acumen.


This is something I worry about as well. I could see her getting overwhelmed by offers of help. But hopefully more experienced people will be able to help with this. I hope so anyway.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 06:24:59 PM by TheDevilYouKnow »
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Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

Ankhammon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #526 on: September 02, 2014, 05:58:10 PM »
I'm just curious as to why there is no source code out there.  I recently graduated from college and every bit of code I wrote, I kept, and that includes code from members of team projects that I was involved with.  I would assume that I am not the only one who does this.

Gratz on the graduation. And I'm not a part of this project, just a well wisher.

And yeah, I kept all my code while I went through college too.

Several problems with your concept though.
I'm presuming that the CoH code is gagillions of lines long considering it's been being developed for 8+ years. Much of which was probably black boxed so the original developers know only the X code and later developers know Y code.

Normally any code you write while working at a company is the sole property of said company and you can get sued if you used it outside of that company.

And the code may be still in use through a different application. NCSoft may or may not know this and wants to err of the safe side. It happens all the time.
When I was working for Sprint, I saw pieces of code used for several different projects and legacy code that was still standing from the 70s and 80s. With that code several people where still developing using it, but there was only one person who really understood it.

I don't know how they are reverse engineering the project (decompiler, deassember, what have you) but we have to realize that some of the code they find may not have been seen/worked on since 02.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Ironwolf

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #527 on: September 02, 2014, 06:08:18 PM »
Gratz on the graduation. And I'm not a part of this project, just a well wisher.

And yeah, I kept all my code while I went through college too.

Several problems with your concept though.
I'm presuming that the CoH code is gagillions of lines long considering it's been being developed for 8+ years. Much of which was probably black boxed so the original developers know only the X code and later developers know Y code.

Normally any code you write while working at a company is the sole property of said company and you can get sued if you used it outside of that company.

And the code may be still in use through a different application. NCSoft may or may not know this and wants to err of the safe side. It happens all the time.
When I was working for Sprint, I saw pieces of code used for several different projects and legacy code that was still standing from the 70s and 80s. With that code several people where still developing using it, but there was only one person who really understood it.

I don't know how they are reverse engineering the project (decompiler, deassember, what have you) but we have to realize that some of the code they find may not have been seen/worked on since 02.

Since it is based off the Cryptic Engine it is possible that there may be backdoors into existing Cryptic products. Then you could get a snapshot of the game up and running but unwinding the reverse engineering would have you use different solutions to things than the original code did and so the SCoRE folks could potentially be in a very good spot :)

Hyperstrike

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #528 on: September 02, 2014, 06:17:27 PM »
LOL, another one that has not heard of Startisback and other apps, that bring the start button back.

And prolly not even tried Windows 8.

LOL, another one who assumes instead of simply asking for clarification (and thus, gets it wrong).

We have installs of Startisback/Classic Shell running on multiple machines (both ours and client devices).  This covers not only Win8, but Server 2012.

Additionally, on many of our clients we're simply not ALLOWED to install things of this nature.  Meaning that remote admin of the machine is a wretched experience.

The problem goes a LOT deeper than just the Start button though.  Metro/Modern is a prime study in unnecessary obfuscation/removal of UI functionality.

And that's about as far as I'm going with this.  Since it risks derailing this thread.

Suffice it to say that I'm probably more familiar with Windows than you are and leave it at that.
So please don't be so quick to write someone expressing displeasure off as a luddite.

Stealth Dart

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #529 on: September 02, 2014, 06:24:14 PM »
Missing Worlds Media was created for the purpose of making a spiritual successor to City of Heroes.  They are not going to be developing two MMO's simultaneously.  It is not all on MWM's shoulders to pull off everything.  A separate holding company will be responsible for licensing the IP.  A separate effort will be bringing back the I23 servers up and running again.  Yet another project [APR] will be transitioning the COH IP to Unreal Engine 4.  Just because Nate was one of the people involved in the negotiations does not mean that he, and by extension MWM, is going to be running everything.  He has already stated that he is not interested in running the holding company.  He has his hands full already.

I am not following blindly.  Nor am I looking at these efforts cynically.  I am supporting the game that I love as are all those who are doing their best to make all these plans a reality.  We will see if they can pull this off or not.  In the words of Yoda...

http://youtu.be/BQ4yd2W50No
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downix

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #530 on: September 02, 2014, 06:27:21 PM »
Missing Worlds Media was created for the purpose of making a spiritual successor to City of Heroes.  They are not going to be developing two MMO's simultaneously.  It is not all on MWM's shoulders to pull off everything.  A separate holding company will be responsible for licensing the IP.  A separate effort will be bringing back the I23 servers up and running again.  Yet another project [APR] will be transitioning the COH IP to Unreal Engine 4.  Just because Nate was one of the people involved in the negotiations does not mean that he, and by extension MWM, is going to be running everything.  He has already stated that he is not interested in running the holding company.  He has his hands full already.

I am not following blindly.  Nor am I looking at these efforts cynically.  I am supporting the game that I love as are all those who are doing their best to make all these plans a reality.  We will see if they can pull this off or not.  In the words of Yoda...

http://youtu.be/BQ4yd2W50No
Once the holding company is set up, my role is done.

Shard

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #531 on: September 02, 2014, 06:31:23 PM »
Missing Worlds Media - Lead Pain in the .. well everything.

Turgenev

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #532 on: September 02, 2014, 06:34:03 PM »
Also, what you have done must have been pretty dang impressive, because it brought Turgenev out of hiding! WOW.


Hush, ya punk. I've been busylike. :P I'm always watching. I've just had to worry about swimming lessons, crib mods, managing a corporate buyout and subsequent RIF at my company this summer, which is still echoing...

I come home, I read "Puff the Magic Dragon" to MiniTurg, sing "Let It Go" like I'm Kermit the Frog, and I'm just knackered.
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srmalloy

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #533 on: September 02, 2014, 06:34:11 PM »
For those who do not know Korean business methods, it is considered highly rude to directly email someone, but to instead get an introduction from a third party business associate. This meant we had to find someone who was not part of NC Soft to formally introduce us to Mr. Yoon. Fortunately, we had two people who could do just that, a former NC West employee and a former co-worker of mine who had started a media company which works with NC Soft on developing properties for the Asian market.

Introductions in place, we made the leap from US-bound people to members of the Korean firm. This was very carefully done, very slowly orchestrated. By July, we had gotten to the point that Mr. Yoon had passed us to Sangwon Chung from NC Soft's Strategic Partnership Development Team.
Quote
Why this group?

Because we approached them like another Korean company. We respected their company culture. And most importantly, we were patient. We had periods where we heard nothing for weeks.

The group itself began as three people. It has grown, some people more connected to the inner workings than others. Some former Cryptic and Paragon employees have given us advise on things ranging from what is needed to run the old server binaries to how the Paragon Market worked.

It's water under the bridge at this point, but the fact that negotiations conducted this way have produced a positive response lends credence to my conclusions that NCSoft had shut down CoH and Paragon Studios as if it were a Korean subsidiary, with what, from their view, was a significant amount of patience on their part that we didn't accept their decision as 'proper' customers should have. It also explains why the several attempts to purchase the CoH IP from NCSoft have failed, as they weren't conducted with the appropriate degree of propriety. From our point of view, that NCSoft has established itself as an international game publisher while failing to accept that business practices in other countries are significantly different, but I can see where, culturally, failing to retain those business practices would be an admission of failure on their part.

That the cultural divide has caused distorted perceptions on both sides is regrettable; had something like this been started back when the shutdown was announced, it might have been possible for the game to have been preserved prior to shutdown -- and, possibly, working through a front, to have enabled Paragon Studios to have bought itself free of NCSoft with CoH and continued the game. Regardless, I am impressed by the effort you have put into trying to salvage the game through processes acceptable to them, and I hope to see its success.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #534 on: September 02, 2014, 06:34:16 PM »
Once the holding company is set up, my role is done.

I have a hammer saws and a nailgun if it would help.

MM3squints

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #535 on: September 02, 2014, 06:43:11 PM »
I have a hammer saws and a nailgun if it would help.

Your don't need those fancy tools. You can fix everything with duck tape

AlienOne

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #536 on: September 02, 2014, 06:46:27 PM »

Hush, ya punk. I've been busylike. :P I'm always watching. I've just had to worry about swimming lessons, crib mods, managing a corporate buyout and subsequent RIF at my company this summer, which is still echoing...

I come home, I read "Puff the Magic Dragon" to MiniTurg, sing "Let It Go" like I'm Kermit the Frog, and I'm just knackered.

lol, awww... MiniTurg. I like it.

I honestly can't wait to try out more of your AE arcs if the game gets back up and running! :)
"What COH did was to show [developers of other] MMOs what they could be like if they gave up on controlling everything in the game, and just made it something great to play."  - Johnny Joy Bringer

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #537 on: September 02, 2014, 06:46:54 PM »
Your don't need those fancy tools. You can fix everything with duck tape

we are building it out of ducks? thats gonna drive people quackers...

Stealth Dart

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #538 on: September 02, 2014, 07:00:11 PM »
Birds of a feather?

http://youtu.be/3Zl2fi7UFf4
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Wammo

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #539 on: September 02, 2014, 07:02:05 PM »
That's been asked, and answered, a least a dozen times since last night...

Sorry FloatingFatMan...I didn't have the stamina to read all 25 pages to find my answers. Please know my tone in that sentence is friendly and genuine...you are one my favorite posters on here. I hope we might put answers on the OP to avoid such events.