Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749526 times)

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3720 on: October 17, 2014, 10:20:19 PM »
ED was necessary and it was POORLY implemented. There were other factors that were implemented at the same time, very upsetting changes. Controllers couldn't affect as many foes in a spawn. Tanks couldn't taunt as many foes which really got teammates killed. If that wasn't enough the  duration of these effects was reduced and the recharge times were lengthened.

In the long run, I can go along with making the changes. I still believe that if duration of mezzes of controllers were reduced, they would figure out that a crap ton enemies would soon be all over them. Tanks that could taunt big piles in hazard zones would taunt away, but the risk/reward and defense/resistances versus the extra damage would require teammates to bail them out of situations where that tank's damage wasn't enough to prevail before endurance ran out. I never like that Fire Tanks could taunt all of Crey's Folly and come out unscathed against large numbers.

Duration of effect, with recharge time, and number effected, I always thought 2 out of 3 would be plenty of nerf.

If buffs debuffs and crowd control were all nerfed to much the game tough would just turn into a holy trinity grindfest though.
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pinballdave

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3721 on: October 17, 2014, 10:26:15 PM »
Or they could have made the taunt power affect a greater amount of foes - but reduced your attack power recharge speed.

Now you can take a lot of aggro but are unlikely to win alone. With the help of your TEAM - you will be fine. A good balance if you want to take taunt as an aggro relief.

I agree with you; there were many ways to balance the ATs so there were no monolithic indestructible beasts. Do we want tanks to taunt as many spawns as they can, but there should be caveats so they don't solo all of Crey's Folly. We want mezzers to mezz a large number but perma-hold making every fight a cake-walk is no challenge. The GDF nerfs at the time of the ED nerfs was doubly onerous. In my book they were worse. Duraction, recharge, and number affected. At most  2 out of 3 would be bearable.

pinballdave

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3722 on: October 17, 2014, 10:34:36 PM »
No, I am not advocating nerfing mezzes and taunts, I am saying with moderate balancing, we can have taunt get the aggro on sizable  groups, and controllers mezz good sized groups. Balancing considerations to keep overachiever solo play is what I would back.

JennSpace

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3723 on: October 17, 2014, 10:38:32 PM »
Missed in action in the Rikti War Zone, almost 2 years ago.

Teikiatsu

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3724 on: October 17, 2014, 11:39:54 PM »
ED was necessary.  IOs were fantastic.

The problem was that ED should NOT have been pushed out until the IO system was ready.

ED was necessary for PvP, which turned out to be unnecessary in the long run.

IOs were great.

The way ED was promoted was an insult to the intelligence of the player base.  "We're going to give you more slotting options by taking away some of your slotting options!"
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LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3725 on: October 18, 2014, 12:25:57 AM »
ED was necessary for PvP, which turned out to be unnecessary in the long run.

IOs were great.

The way ED was promoted was an insult to the intelligence of the player base.  "We're going to give you more slotting options by taking away some of your slotting options!"

It'd be to late and a poor decision though to move the game back to ED if we got it back though.  IO's would probably become largely unused and everyone would be forced into endless hamidon raiding :/.
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HEATSTROKE

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3726 on: October 18, 2014, 01:45:15 AM »
The problem wasnt ED.. nor was it the fact that the IO system wasnt in place.. it was the flat out LIE that Emmert told the community.. THAT was the issue..

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3727 on: October 18, 2014, 02:09:13 AM »
ED was necessary and it was POORLY implemented. There were other factors that were implemented at the same time, very upsetting changes. Controllers couldn't affect as many foes in a spawn. Tanks couldn't taunt as many foes which really got teammates killed. If that wasn't enough the  duration of these effects was reduced and the recharge times were lengthened.

In the long run, I can go along with making the changes. I still believe that if duration of mezzes of controllers were reduced, they would figure out that a crap ton enemies would soon be all over them. Tanks that could taunt big piles in hazard zones would taunt away, but the risk/reward and defense/resistances versus the extra damage would require teammates to bail them out of situations where that tank's damage wasn't enough to prevail before endurance ran out. I never like that Fire Tanks could taunt all of Crey's Folly and come out unscathed against large numbers.

Duration of effect, with recharge time, and number effected, I always thought 2 out of 3 would be plenty of nerf.
While it's not completely accurate back then i was fond of saying "If the Devs are given two different options that could be used to nerf a power set to bring it more in line with the other sets instead of choosing one or the other they'd just do both at once." That's not completely true, but in some cases i really think it was pretty accurate. To be fair it also happened at a time when they still didn't have a really good understanding of how combat worked from a mechanical and numerical standpoint.
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Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3728 on: October 18, 2014, 02:16:55 AM »
ED was necessary for PvP, which turned out to be unnecessary in the long run.

IOs were great.

The way ED was promoted was an insult to the intelligence of the player base.  "We're going to give you more slotting options by taking away some of your slotting options!"
ED was at least as necessary for the PvE game in my opinion. Although in my opinion something that resembled more of a diminishing returns slope would've been preferred to the "1) good, 2) good, 3) almost as good, 4+) why did you even bother?" cliff we received.
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ukaserex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3729 on: October 18, 2014, 02:41:11 AM »
ED...

I just didn't care for the acronym...

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Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3730 on: October 18, 2014, 03:12:18 AM »
ED...

I just didn't care for the acronym...
But it was so unintentionally apt.
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Teikiatsu

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3731 on: October 18, 2014, 04:09:08 AM »
ED was at least as necessary for the PvE game in my opinion.

How do you figure?
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hejtmane

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3732 on: October 18, 2014, 04:39:42 AM »
ED was at least as necessary for the PvE game in my opinion. Although in my opinion something that resembled more of a diminishing returns slope would've been preferred to the "1) good, 2) good, 3) almost as good, 4+) why did you even bother?" cliff we received.

Issue with ED even after the fact there was no point in slotting anything in 99% of the powers other than acc/rch/damg/end

Stealth Dart

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3733 on: October 18, 2014, 05:00:42 AM »
 :-X
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 09:41:09 AM by Stealth Dart »
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Rejolt

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3734 on: October 18, 2014, 05:38:06 AM »
Issue with ED even after the fact there was no point in slotting anything in 99% of the powers other than acc/rch/damg/end

It's why I loved my Elec/Nrg blaster. Boost Range and Power Boost made that type of slotting all the more useful.
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HEATSTROKE

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3735 on: October 18, 2014, 02:30:03 PM »
 i think its hilarious that years later people are still upset over it.. ;D

brothermutant

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3736 on: October 18, 2014, 03:06:07 PM »
ED...

I just didn't care for the acronym...
I joined after ED (I know it was after CoV came on as I bought the dual pack at wallyworld), so I have no feelings about the ED nerf hammer comin down. I DO remember that I thought this "ED" guy must be a real asshat as everyone seemed to hate him.

IIRC, I "heard" the reason for ED was to keep scrappers/blasters from one slotting acc and 5 slotting dmg in their main attacks as the damage (especially with BU+AIM) would wreck AVs. At least, that's what I heard. Not sure if it really ruined anything for me cuz either as I joined or shortly after, the IO sets were in effect and I remember thinking "great, something NEW to have to learn to play this game". Of course, once I got MIDs, that was some happy times. I still plan out my toons ever hoping to play CoX again.

Here's to the OCT 2nd update and to (a hopeful) Xmas launch! (disclaimer: I am NOT affiliated with anyone of importance in these negotiations)

blacksly

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3737 on: October 18, 2014, 03:29:55 PM »
How do you figure?

I've been a game designer, coding for a UO shard for a lot of years, and I can tell you the situation from the point of view of the developers:

They designed a game, tried to balance it, with a reasonable balance between risk, reward, and fun. The amount of work that you have to do before players start really testing it, is huge. By the time that you really get a good idea of how things work out, a lot of stuff has been built and used by a lot of players. So, you kind of have to guess how the game will play out, how things will balance, etc.

This being pretty far back in MMORPG history, they didn't have all that many examples to look at, so they had to guess. Guess how players will play, guess how players will select powers and slot them and use (or not use) them (remember how long it took them to fix Fear powers, and I think that they've only fixed one Phase power).

Now, a year or more into the game, they see that.... they guess well on some things, and not so well on others. The game is doing okay, but there are some clear balance issues. Basically, they did not anticipate, or want, Tanks herding 200 Wolves and jumping into Dumpsters. Leaving aside the aggro and target caps that they put in, they never wanted Tanks to be able to do that, defensively. Or Blasters to 1-shot most mobs by 6-slotting with Damage, 6-slotting Hasten, Aim, and Build-Up, and always being at the damage cap. So, the game was not playing the way that they thought was good.

Now, at this point, they absolutely have to change some things. Some options are:
1: Their own vision of how the game plays. Frankly, they did this to some degree, but I agree with them that accepting Tanks who can go AFK in the middle of 100 even-con mobs is not acceptable game balance.
2: Some major game design changes, such as the more mobs are attacking you, the more likely they are to hit you (you can dodge a couple of guys shooting at you, but you can't dodge 100 with the same level of ability), or some other way to limit defenses. And then they'd have to do something about the damage-capped Blasters. And about Controllers. And about... forget it. Too many changes, and you get back to the starting problem: you're guessing how things will work.
3: Powerset balances. This actually did happen, it was called the GDN (Global Defense Nerf). I agreed with it also, and you can see that even now with just SOs, characters can still be built to play at +6/x2 (maybe even higher), and IMO that is clearly enough defense considering how they wanted the game to play.
4: Slotting balances, otherwise known as ED. I don't really agree with the "drop off a cliff" curve that they used, but the concept is the best thing that they could have done, for one simple reason: it forced the players to slot powers more like the Devs expected the powers to be slotted when they balanced them. Given that the design and balance of the powers took months if not years, and it would take months if not years to rebalance powers so that the game plays with more balance in risk-reward-fun, and it takes a lot less time to put in ED, clearly some form of ED was the best solution.

I know that players at the time were all like "But why do we have to play the game the way YOU want us to play it!!", but that misses a major point: The reason that you have to play the game the way the Devs envision it, or at least be strongly influenced to play it, is because that's how the Devs designed the game and balanced the NPC threat, the rewards, the missions, etc. ED is a lot smaller change than re-balancing everything else around the realization that min-maxing with 5-6 Damage SOs, or Resist SOs (with Stamina 6-slotted). The game at the time was unbalanced, and even most of the players who complained about the solution at least were willing to admit the problem. What they did not see was that from the Dev side, putting in the solutions that the players wanted were more of a gamble, and a lot more work. It didn't make sense for them to do a lot of extra work with less expectation of a successful balancing adjustment, when they could put in the relatively-simple ED.

And if they had explained this clearly at the time, I think that it would have ended up pretty much a non-issue.

Rejolt

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3738 on: October 18, 2014, 03:54:03 PM »
EDIT: Massive wall of off-topic text removed.

ED hurt badly but it hit only a few months after I started the game. I only had to break about 5-6 months of habits. (not 17-18 months as those who played from launch). ED turned my Class Cannon into a Class Water Cannon with only lowered mob accuracy and a global end reduction to powers for balancing back in the players' favor.

There's no better proof how great CoH's core gameplay is than the numbers of us that stayed and thrived after ED hit.

What was the distance between Issue 6 and Issue 9? 15-18 months? I remember after CoV launched it was a really long time before Issue 7 landed with Grandville, Electric Melee/Armor, etc.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 04:25:07 PM by Rejolt »
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Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3739 on: October 18, 2014, 04:08:30 PM »
How do you figure?
Mostly because it did help reduce the rather extreme variation in effective power level among builds and powersets, and balance is important even in PvE. Honestly i don't have the inclination to retread the ground that was covered years ago in discussing why ED was a good idea, regardless of how well it was initially presented and implemented, and i'm not sure where to find the links at this point. Actually blacksly already covered the basics fairly well, so i'll defer to their post.
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