Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1750243 times)

Teikiatsu

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 287
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2740 on: September 21, 2014, 02:35:11 PM »
There was usually knock immunity applied to immobs....I'd also say though, that incarnated masterminds with reactive actually melted enemies lightning fast, so much so knockback couldn't do anything.  Then there was the knockback to knockdown IO.....

That required a desire to run a villain to L50.  As much as I liked my bots/traps, I did not like CoV.  Even after GR and the ability to alter alignments I couldn't motivate myself enough to bring him over to CoH side for several months, and altitis kept me from ever getting him higher than L39.  The shut down squelched my motivation even more.
Virtue Server - Main: Midnight Lightning Dark/Elec/Psi Defender

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKUPgy_xH8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EitO6Wq_9A

ryuplaneswalker

  • New Efforts # 17,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 190
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2741 on: September 21, 2014, 02:35:33 PM »
It wasn't the damage so much as the lack of random KB and more dependable combat actions.

I ran a Zombie/Time and was reasonably satisfied with their effectiveness. 

I kept my Bots/Devices as a solo toon and it played just fine, pets don't care about KB :)

I had a Zombie/Sonic Banshee based character.

There was GOOD times had with her really good times, Self heals + Plus resistances on pets ended up better than I could imagine, and I always had a good target for The Anchor Debuff.

pinballdave

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 395
  • I am the player formerly known as Psylenz
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2742 on: September 21, 2014, 04:20:25 PM »
Yeah, the demons talked back to much. Had to fire them.

No, no no, they just wanted something to do. I had a simple /em macro to get the posse to emote.

pinballdave

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 395
  • I am the player formerly known as Psylenz
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2743 on: September 21, 2014, 04:27:08 PM »
How did zombie damage hold up to bots? I had a reasonably old bots, but wanted to try zombies.

Zombie/sonic was very good. So was zombies/thermal since the fire shields were very good against...fire. Zombies/dark was formidable, especially with fluffy doing that Chill of the Night debuff in his retrofitted melee position. Many found it unbelievable, but with the right timing of bumping the foes with hurricane, your group was very sturdy. Don't underestimate the effectiveness of 6 slotted steamy mist.

ivanhedgehog

  • New Efforts # 25,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2744 on: September 21, 2014, 04:28:50 PM »
No, no no, they just wanted something to do. I had a simple /em macro to get the posse to emote.

Great memories of doing the last 5 levels on my demon mm during halloween in grandville. a team of 8 with 4 or 5 masterminds at the garage doors trick or treating..enemies just dissolving in front of us.

pinballdave

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 395
  • I am the player formerly known as Psylenz
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2745 on: September 21, 2014, 04:40:50 PM »
...


If I had my way, I would have the three BEST minions go fight and leave the three lil ones to follow me on defensive to keep some protection when I needed it and also have a way to split those three hi and three low ones to two separate points to fight (to get a lil cross fire going AND to keep the AoEs from killing them all in a hot minute).

I did just this on my demons, when soloing, I called it a split stance. The two lieutenant pets I put on defensive/follow, they didn't go in as much. The three little guys and the big Demon I put on attack aggressive. Then I would follow the big demon where the aggro led us. In most cases the hellfire and cold demonling liked to go in and fight with the big boy. The fire demonling usually stayed right behind my mastermind flinging fire at the enemy. It worked well for me. Of course all good masterminds had a bugout/regroup follow/passive macro. The whole goal of the split stance was to get the Demon boss to get out his ice sword and going into berzerker ice sword circle mode. This technique worked with demons/poison, demons/sonic, and demons/thermal.

Beltor

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2746 on: September 21, 2014, 04:44:19 PM »
Demons/Dark was well rounded. Demons had resistance to all but En,Neg, and Psy and the Ember demon had an AOE buff aura that did the same. Dark Miasmos buffed En,Neg, and Psy. So if you kept the Ember near, you and all friendlies nearby had a resistance to all 8 elements.

pinballdave

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 395
  • I am the player formerly known as Psylenz
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2747 on: September 21, 2014, 04:49:12 PM »
Demons/Dark was well rounded. Demons had resistance to all but En,Neg, and Psy and the Ember demon had an AOE buff aura that did the same. Dark Miasmos buffed En,Neg, and Psy. So if you kept the Ember near, you and all friendlies nearby had a resistance to all 8 elements.

The big twilight grasp heal radius of the MM and the fluffy cannot be overstated. Chill of the Night Pbaoe on fluffy was soooo nice with melee attacking pets.

Battlechimp

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 190
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2748 on: September 21, 2014, 04:50:38 PM »


Another player once advised me on how to get over my sets hang-up: just go into Mids' and play around with them. Mm... that wasn't my idea of "play".


I have to say, I was largely like this when IOs came out.  I didn't feel like looking into the numbers. I didn't really use Mids  all that much.  I'd start a build in minds then go "you know, I could be in game beating stuff up right now" before to long.  So my first characters to get sets were a couple of my blasters.  Didn't use mids, just looked at set bounses and went, what are the best bonuses I can get from sets that won't require me to respec. My DP/nrg blaster was first and her survivability went way up.  Then did my elec/elec blaster and decided it'd be fun to put the end mod stun process into all his attacks. So we're not exactly talking efficient slotting here.  And he became a beast and my most survivable blaster.

So that made me want IO out a few of my scrappers.  But with them I wanted to get as much def and resist that I could.  But was dreading sitting there staring at mids and crunching the numbers.  Luckily, had a few people in my SGwho loved using mids, so I asked them to make me a build for my ma/sr and fire/fire scrappers, told him that they had to have certain powers, no purples, no pvp iOS.  Then after those two, just having a general idea of what I was looking at for a build made it much easier for me to extrapolate that into builds for my other melee characters
Some men were born to greatness, others had it thrust upon them.  Me?  I punted. - Col Cranston Snord

Blow things up! Blow things up! Blow things up! Blo... wait, not that!! - Jammers everywhen

pinballdave

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 395
  • I am the player formerly known as Psylenz
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2749 on: September 21, 2014, 04:57:18 PM »
Great memories of doing the last 5 levels on my demon mm during halloween in grandville. a team of 8 with 4 or 5 masterminds at the garage doors trick or treating..enemies just dissolving in front of us.

You get a bubbling, sonic, and thermal mastermind together and your platoon of pets are very well shielded.

edit: and it was a short time ... but the Nature's Affinity guys could setup those patches in front of the doors for more reckless abandon

ukaserex

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 500
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2750 on: September 21, 2014, 04:59:03 PM »
I remember returning to the game once burn was unnerfed. @Daleaha, a player on Liberty who had a zillion badges, told me about IO sets. I'd just teamed with him and saw him tank Lord Recluse with a blaster (he made wise use of purples, but still!) That was all I needed to see.

But, copying builds from the forums and tweaking them to suit my own style of play - it was a bit of drudgery at first, but once I saw how it all came together, it got easier.

Yes, I'd rather have been playing for that hour I spent on mids'. But, I think it may have saved me time in the long run with more efficient playing. Less time spent waiting for endurance, less time being face planted, etc.
Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

Cailyn Alaynn

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 604
  • Never give in.
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2751 on: September 21, 2014, 05:02:19 PM »
I tended to MIDs when I couldn't be playing the game. Server maint, patches, spare time at school...etc.
As well as downtime while playing, Loading screens and such.
"Let's get dangerous..."
Lead Developer and Master of Mischief - Revival Project.
Revival website: APR.Pc-Logix.com

pinballdave

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 395
  • I am the player formerly known as Psylenz
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2752 on: September 21, 2014, 05:02:42 PM »
I remember returning to the game once burn was unnerfed. @Daleaha, a player on Liberty who had a zillion badges, told me about IO sets. I'd just teamed with him and saw him tank Lord Recluse with a blaster (he made wise use of purples, but still!) That was all I needed to see.

But, copying builds from the forums and tweaking them to suit my own style of play - it was a bit of drudgery at first, but once I saw how it all came together, it got easier.

Yes, I'd rather have been playing for that hour I spent on mids'. But, I think it may have saved me time in the long run with more efficient playing. Less time spent waiting for endurance, less time being face planted, etc.

My characters were mostly recharge whores

Clave Dark 5

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 282
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2753 on: September 21, 2014, 05:37:31 PM »
Cups!? CUPS!? Luxury!!

The Ramen I buy is 20 years past its sell by date, has been eaten 3 times already, is made out of straw, AND I have to eat it out of a muddy puddle!
You were lucky...  ;D

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.  *harrumph*
"What you say is rather profound, and probably erroneous." - Joseph Conrad

Nyx Nought Nothing

  • New Efforts # 11,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
  • Ha!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2754 on: September 21, 2014, 06:00:26 PM »
George MacDonald, one of the three developers of Champions, actually worked on CoH for a while.
Sadly, he would never share game secrets with me. :'(
Champions or CoH secrets? Not that Champions had many secrets other than maybe the hodge-podge of lore that was constantly being revised anyway. The rest of the system was pretty clear, so i'm guessing CoH secrets.
Still, it's pretty cool that he was involved with CoH. Did he have any involvement with CO?

An ancient memory just poked at me, and I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this issue.

Why did Staff Fighting have a breakdancing move, where the character would spin around on its back, as part of its animation? Eye of the Storm was the power in question, I believe. Looked a bit silly and out of place, IMO.
Because if you watch videos of staff-based martial arts there are actual moves very much like that. As a martial art staff fighting tends to be rather acrobatic and dance-like, much like capeoira.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2755 on: September 21, 2014, 06:22:21 PM »
Cups!? CUPS!? Luxury!!

The Ramen I buy is 20 years past its sell by date, has been eaten 3 times already, is made out of straw, AND I have to eat it out of a muddy puddle!

Maybe you should shop at a store that rotates their stock a little. Just saying.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

archaist

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2756 on: September 21, 2014, 06:25:27 PM »
My characters were mostly recharge whores

This This This! I loved the invisibility power pool just to throw a LotG or the +6 to Hit in a 1 slotted grant invis or invis.
The unseen blade is the deadliest.

Harpospoke

  • New Efforts # 4,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2757 on: September 21, 2014, 07:47:32 PM »
There was no time in the existence of the game that any archetype wasn't overpowered relative to the game's balance standard for players with sufficient dedication to maximal slotting and optimal gameplay.

The game wasn't designed to be balanced around maximal slotting and optimal gameplay.  It was designed around the median player performance, as determined by watching all the players who played the game and measuring their median performance.  Under that metric, there was never a single moment in the existence of the game where blasters as an archetype were not severely underperforming all other archetypes.  We're talking 25%-50% underperformance.

That's not 25%-50% under the other archetypes.  That's 25%-50% under the median performance: many archetypes were over the median performance, which made the gap between blasters and the higher performing archetypes (i.e. scrappers) higher than that.  The single largest contributor to this underperformance was that blasters were dying at a far higher rate than all other archetypes.  Solo, teamed, low level, intermediate level, high level, max level.  In all types of content.  The numbers say that if you think you were doing well on a blaster, there were ten players doing just as well on every other archetype and a hundred players doing vastly worse on blasters.  If you didn't see this, your experience was not representative of the playerbase as a whole.

The truth is, nobody cares about min/maxers or the power gaming elite, nor should they.  The developers didn't need to care about us.  We could always excel under any circumstances.  The devs cared about the typical player, because those were the ones that kept the lights on.  They represented the bulk of the players, the bulk of the playing time, and the bulk of the subscription revenue.  They needed the game to present a roughly level playing field to them, and that's ultimately where the devs spent most of their energy.  And I would have eviscerated them if they hadn't.

My calculations suggested that in broad strokes, I24 blasters when played by the average player would probably be in the general vicinity of I23 median performance in solo play during leveling conditions.  Slightly under on average, but close enough.  My worry was that the collateral buffs on archetypes like defenders and corruptors would increase the median performance enough to where blasters would fall below the median again.  But I think at least for the average player, blasters would start to become competitive with scrappers as offensively focused characters.

The people already farming +2x8 with blasters?  The I24 buffs would have less of an impact on them relative to average players in most cases, because those players were already reaching saturation levels of power that small to moderate buffs have more difficulty improving.  And if they did, small price to pay to improve things for the other 95% of players.  The same thing happened with the invention system.  It let the 5% become far more powerful, but it also lifted most of the other 95% to moderate levels of performance far more consistent with the newer balance standard for players post-I5 (particularly when it came to soloing).
Epic post.   It definitely wasn't the imagination of Blaster players that they were behind other AT's.   The running joke about dying was a running joke for a reason.   :)    And you are absolutely right that the top tier players should not be who the game is balanced around.

I would like to mention something though.   After reading your post, I started thinking about how I felt after logging into the game and deciding which character to play.   Different characters fit different moods.  A Scrapper mood or a Controller mood was a completely different thing than a Blaster mood.   I had 3 lvl 50 Blasters and I played them a lot.   Ice/Ice, Fire/Fire, AR/Dev. (Yep...I went with matching theme most of the time)   I certainly never played them when I felt like turning off my brain and just jumping into a fight....that was Scrapper time!   My AR/Dev didn't really die much...but that's just because I played him very slowly as a solo toon.   Like...glacial speed.   I spent time planning each fight and setting up bombs and caltrops.  I enjoyed it very much.  Cracked me up to lure a tough boss into a hallway and watch him step on my maze of tripmines.   Makes me smile thinking about it right now.    Same deal with the Ice/Ice...the holds, sleep, knock-down, and slows made for an interesting experience figuring out ways to defeat enemies that could wipe me out in a stand-up fight.   The Fire/Fire...I just got him some defense and used inspirations to kill everything as quick as possible.  A lot less thinking there.   ;D

I'm not saying I would be against Blaster buffs...you outlined very well why they needed it and a Blaster player has every right to point out how unfair that is.   But is it possible that Blasters were a different "flavor" in the game that added something the playerbase enjoyed?   As Codewalker pointed out with other facets of the game... was this another fortunate accident that made the game great?   i.e.....added to the wide variety of playstyles?   I was as frustrated as anyone with Blasters and became a Controller nut after starting with a Blaster.   But I eventually figured out how to play them and came to enjoy it when the mood stuck me.   Is it possible that players who loved Blasters loved them because they required more "thinking"?  I dunno...just a thought.

Again...not implying "Blasters were fine!".   They were clearly behind the other AT's in survival-ability.

I always wanted a Clowns MM set. Can you imagine anything more evil?

When summoned they could all drive up in one little car and climb out one at a time.
Squirting acid flower attack. Confetti bucket confuse attack. One of the little red rubber bulb brass horns used in a sonic attack. Giant mallet. Little ankle biting dogs, it all works!

Just too much fun to be had!
That's friggin' awesome!

I can certainly understand if you started playing a Scrapper or Tank.. and then tried a blaster.. its an immediate shock.. and Level 35-45 feel like an eternity...
I thought I remembered reading that more people started with Blasters than any other AT.  (I know I did)   So my "shock" was when I tried a different AT and found out how much easier they were!    ;D

GRRR, all this discussion about blasters makes me pine for good old Defiance, I wish it could be implemented in COH 1.5 instead of that ultra-lame "able to use T1 and T2 primary attacks while mezzed", old defiance was thousands of times more epic
I found that to be a huge improvement.   So many times I was able to get out of a jam because I was able to deal damage while mezzed.

But surprisingly, the toon I loved the most needed the most help to finish those last 5 levels to 50, my Ninja MM did great solo to 45, but could not go past that on her own. Folks would reject MMs for their teams seemingly automatically, and forget ITrials, no one wanted to allow Pets in ITrials.

While I understand, it made me wish longingly for a solo path to incarnate content.

That is what I would like to see the most if new content does come along, a choice of solo incarnate paths.   ;)
I loved MM's as well, but I couldn't help noticing that teams would rather not deal with the pets.   They were two of my solo only toons.    A solo Incarnate path would definitely help out there.

Wormhole was fun :)  LGTF mission 4, wormholed the Rikti into the Hamidon and sat back and watched the fun.
Love Wormhole.   One of the many powers that could give you big laughs.

I played many, many blasters, and really hated the argument that blasters didn't need defense because they had range. It didn't make much difference when the mobs had ranged attacks that could easily neutralize a blaster in just a couple hits (base damage plus DOT).
I used to read that on the old forum.   "Range is your defense!".   I would immediately wonder why my secondary had so many melee powers if that were true.   There is no way the AT was designed to stay at range when you look at the secondaries.

I remember how the boards would explode anytime the subject of Mind Control not having "pets"
came up and how so many folks said that Mind Control was worthless because of it. 

Of course, when folks talked about Controller pets, what they really meant was "fire imps"...
Awww!  No love for Singy, Poo-Man, Snowman, and all the Illusion pets?   I loved those guys!   None of them are nearly as dumb as imps either.   Way less irritation.    ;D

Understand: everyone who believed this believed it was all but obvious.  Exactly zero of them could either make it happen in my presence or have it happen while they were chatlogging.  It *only* happened when the only thing looking were players, and nothing was actually recording the event.
That instantly made me think of the Invisible Boy from Mystery Men.  (my favorite comic book movie)  He could only turn invisible when no one was watching.

See... To make sure Revival plays like CoH... I'm just going to ask Arcana to beta test.
*like*  (we need a like button)

I spent all my time in game having fun. Whatever I was doing, it was fun; if it wasn't fun, I stopped doing it.
QFT

...Although I do have to admit I did all the Shadow Shard TF's "just to say I did them once".   I suppose the sense of accomplishment afterward does count as "fun" in a way though.

Spider-man "tanked" tons of baddies well above his pay grade thanks to (coughpopularityandhackwritingcough) dodging and bravely running away! Why can't we?!

Also... Inspirations are as good as the writers being on your side on COH. Right?
The ultimate writer-power has to be Batman.   There are writers who actually write stories where he can not just survive a fight with Superman for more than a split-second...but actually win!   That's gotta be the craziest, most illogical story ever.

Power Gamer

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,865
  • Reaching troubled youth...one Hellion at a time!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2758 on: September 21, 2014, 07:53:24 PM »
I always wanted a Clowns MM set. Can you imagine anything more evil?

When summoned they could all drive up in one little car and climb out one at a time.
Squirting acid flower attack. Confetti bucket confuse attack. One of the little red rubber bulb brass horns used in a sonic attack. Giant mallet. Little ankle biting dogs, it all works!

Just too much fun to be had!

Edited to add schtuff!



We're almost there!    ;D

Yup, very awesome.
It takes a village to raise a child. And it takes a villain to explain the value of lunch money.

-Random CoHer: "Why does the sky turn green during Rikti invasions?"
-Me:"Rikti Monkey farts"
-Random CoHer: "I'm going to you for all my questions from now on!"

FloatingFatMan

  • An Offal
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,178
  • Kheldian's Forever!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2759 on: September 21, 2014, 08:05:14 PM »
Maybe you should shop at a store that rotates their stock a little. Just saying.

Enlightenment is thisaway!  =>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo