And the mask comes off.

[K26dp]

I'm going out on my limb again to state that I24 was not complete. I keep hearing from everyone about how it was this perfect thing and it was going to fix the entire game. Maybe it was (or not) but it was not complete in beta. You can see it if you pull up icon beta and look around. (I don't think the icon mod actually put in damage amounts, but I could be wrong).

As to the I24 changes themselves:
It seems to me that these "fixes" that were to be introduced in I24 were a bit odd. So many changes (that had been back burnered for years) in one issue?

I can think of two obvious possible reasons for this.
One, the devs knew something was up and the game was getting close to closing. This would have been a push for new players to save the game.
Two, the devs were settling the game with an eye to the future issues. As in, they had something planned which would have included much harder content.

Both of these possibilities leaves the possibility that I24 (without development scrutiny) could have been as much game breaking as game changing.

When you start looking at the numbers, there was a huuuge increase in DPS on the way for blasters, defenders and corrupters.
Did this "balance" need to take place for those ATs because they were so inferior to the melee and control characters? I'm not convinced of that.

How does this all affect the interactions for teaming? AV killing? Soloing? Pre 50 content? Post 50 content?

I've left out the other changes, but they all would need evaluation too.

I24 was essentially complete. It was on the test server for a month prior to the announcement. Positron has said it was a week away from release. The other powersets that are visable in ICON were not intended for I24.

And yes, it would created a DPS and survivability increase for ranged characters. That was the whole purpose, because they were significantly inferior to melee and control characters. And you are correct, they intended to up the difficulty of future content.

[Napalmrain]

I hate this argument. It's like "Oh, I didn't prepare, and you did, so it's your fault and everyone who prepared should restart like me."

And the argument "I had some out of game program to save some data makes me special, so I dont want to start over and am looking for any way I can to get my stuff back" is better?

Everybody wants their shit back. Aint gonna happen unless the new company gets all user data from NCsoft. If they allow the special people to get their stuff but not others, shit will not fly. All or none.

[Shard]

And the argument "I had some out of game program to save some data makes me special, so I dont want to start over and am looking for any way I can to get my stuff back" is better?

Everybody wants their pancake back. Aint gonna happen unless the new company gets all user data from NCsoft. If they allow the special people to get their stuff but not others, pancake will not fly. All or none.

That strikes me as being just as selfish as any other view.

[Cobra Man]

I24 was essentially complete. It was on the test server for a month prior to the announcement. Positron has said it was a week away from release. The other powersets that are visable in ICON were not intended for I24.

And yes, it would created a DPS and survivability increase for ranged characters. That was the whole purpose, because they were significantly inferior to melee and control characters. And you are correct, they intended to up the difficulty of future content.

Meh.

My blasters were never inferior to melee and control toons. I might not have been able to stand toe to toe with mobs but not many were left standing after a few seconds

It looks like i24 improvements will make blasters almost overpowered ... or maybe there's no 'almost' about it.

[Remaugen]

And the argument "I had some out of game program to save some data makes me special, so I dont want to start over and am looking for any way I can to get my stuff back" is better?

Everybody wants their pancake back. Aint gonna happen unless the new company gets all user data from NCsoft. If they allow the special people to get their stuff but not others, pancake will not fly. All or none.

They are not talking about getting their characters/toons back. But if you still have your original install of CoH, then if you had any saved costumes they should still be in their folder. That's all, nothing to get upset about, in fact, if you go into Icon you can make and save costumes right now if you want. No promises that they will work, but logic say's they should.

Sentinel files are off the table, no one will be able to use them so it's not even an issue. No reason to argue or get upset about it.


We're almost there!   

[Ankhammon]

I24 was essentially complete. It was on the test server for a month prior to the announcement. Positron has said it was a week away from release. The other powersets that are visable in ICON were not intended for I24.

And yes, it would created a DPS and survivability increase for ranged characters. That was the whole purpose, because they were significantly inferior to melee and control characters. And you are correct, they intended to up the difficulty of future content.

Appreciate the input. Never heard the Posi statement.

I was actually speaking specifically to the damage numbers of corrupters I can see in Icon Beta. They are out of whack with the blaster versions. As in dual pistol corrupter damage was higher than dual pistol blaster damage. That kind of thing.

And just following through with the logic, then if Irish_Girl and company put in a I24, then they will need to be prepared for more difficult content in the future...

[Ankhammon]

Meh.

My blasters were never inferior to melee and control toons. I might not have been able to stand toe to toe with mobs but not many were left standing after a few seconds

It looks like i24 improvements will make blasters almost overpowered ... or maybe there's no 'almost' about it.

That was my gut reaction for corrupter/defenders.

[Arcana]

When you start looking at the numbers, there was a huuuge increase in DPS on the way for blasters, defenders and corrupters.
Did this "balance" need to take place for those ATs because they were so inferior to the melee and control characters? I'm not convinced of that.

I'm absolutely convinced Blasters needed buffs.  Arbiter Hawk agreed, but he felt there were issues with many powers that happened to affect blasters, like nukes, and wanted to address them as well.  There were a lot of different changes all over the place because Arbiter Hawk got the green light to make many of these changes.  I was specifically discussing these changes with him for months right up to literally a day or two before the shutdown announcement.  They might seem random, but they were not.  They represented a significant shift in thinking, because a different dev was given permission to make sweeping changes across much of the power base (those changes still still needed to be approved, but AH's thought process was much different from Castle's, say, or Black Scorpions.

[rebel 1812]

The other rather significant point is to allow the game to have continuing support and development. CoH 1.0 will not have source code or developer tools, there will be no way to make significant additions or changes to the original game going forward. CoH 1.5 will be fully expandable and be running on a modern engine.
Some people might not see it this way, but to me it would be perfectly acceptable to have to start over in 1.5 if i want to play new content. In the past i frequently remade characters when new sets came out that better realized the character concepts, and besides all 1.0 characters will have been recently remade anyway. Although i suspect transferring account-based unlocks for things like rewards and costume pieces should be relatively easy since a new account system will have to implemented anyway.




Edit: "a new account system will have to be reimplemented"? Really? Since i haven't registered with the Department of Redundancy Department i feel compelled to tweak the wording slightly.

If they are building it, then they can build a coverter for backwards compatibility.  This was the idea behind sentential+.  Characters are just data after all.

[Surelle]

They are not talking about getting their characters/toons back. But if you still have your original install of CoH, then if you had any saved costumes they should still be in their folder. That's all, nothing to get upset about, in fact, if you go into Icon you can make and save costumes right now if you want. No promises that they will work, but logic say's they should.

Sentinel files are off the table, no one will be able to use them so it's not even an issue. No reason to argue or get upset about it.


We're almost there!   

This is a most excellent post.   

[Napalmrain]

They are not talking about getting their characters/toons back. But if you still have your original install of CoH, then if you had any saved costumes they should still be in their folder. That's all, nothing to get upset about, in fact, if you go into Icon you can make and save costumes right now if you want. No promises that they will work, but logic say's they should.

Sentinel files are off the table, no one will be able to use them so it's not even an issue. No reason to argue or get upset about it.


We're almost there!   

In that case, its no big deal. <3 Icon.

[Felderburg]

Regarding Issue 24.... Even if a Atlas Park Revived includes it, what does that mean? Storyline and lore, contacts, things like that are probably able to be added no problem. But everyone's talking about game mechanics changes, buffing this, buffing that, blasters are great now... But it's my understanding that APR will use a different engine from CoH anyways! Which means that all the combat powers are going to be starting from scratch anyways, right? Unless APR is somehow able to exactly copy the behavior of the CoH engine, it seems to me that most anything involving powers and their use, and hard numbers, is going to be built from square one again anyways. Or am I wrong?

[ivanhedgehog]

And the argument "I had some out of game program to save some data makes me special, so I dont want to start over and am looking for any way I can to get my stuff back" is better?

Everybody wants their pancake back. Aint gonna happen unless the new company gets all user data from NCsoft. If they allow the special people to get their stuff but not others, pancake will not fly. All or none.

sentinal was an outside program with extensive character data, which I never actually used. saving your costume was a button in icon and at character creation that you could save a costume. it make zero difference to game play. and it was made by the devs and everyone that played had access too. you can hack costume data till the cows come home and all you will have is messed up costumes. everyone can bring back their keybinds and costume data with zero change to the game code. if you didnt save yours too bad.it was part of the game.

[Ankhammon]

I'm absolutely convinced Blasters needed buffs.  Arbiter Hawk agreed, but he felt there were issues with many powers that happened to affect blasters, like nukes, and wanted to address them as well.  There were a lot of different changes all over the place because Arbiter Hawk got the green light to make many of these changes.  I was specifically discussing these changes with him for months right up to literally a day or two before the shutdown announcement.  They might seem random, but they were not.  They represented a significant shift in thinking, because a different dev was given permission to make sweeping changes across much of the power base (those changes still still needed to be approved, but AH's thought process was much different from Castle's, say, or Black Scorpions.

yes, blasters in particular were falling behind the other ATs.

It would be that shift in thinking that I was picking up on. My whole argument was based on my thoughts that there seemed to be such a shift.
Changes don't go on in a vacuum (except when talking about a game that does not currently exist ) so a shift in thinking would have affected the game. Without those who were running the game in place, anyone going forward with an I24 would have to be particularly aware of this... That's really my whole argument.

If there was a plan, does APR know of it and its details long term?.... that sounds like awful English, but I think it's correct.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

Regarding Issue 24.... Even if a Atlas Park Revived includes it, what does that mean? Storyline and lore, contacts, things like that are probably able to be added no problem. But everyone's talking about game mechanics changes, buffing this, buffing that, blasters are great now... But it's my understanding that APR will use a different engine from CoH anyways! Which means that all the combat powers are going to be starting from scratch anyways, right? Unless APR is somehow able to exactly copy the behavior of the CoH engine, it seems to me that most anything involving powers and their use, and hard numbers, is going to be built from square one again anyways. Or am I wrong?

Well the whole point to CoH 1.5 is to replicate the mechanics of CoH 1.0 at shutdown as closely as possible and iterate from there, much like the Devs had done since Issue 0. So the current plan is build 1.5 using the numbers and combat mechanics of Issue 24 and then continue from that point. So the changes to 1.5 are at the base software code and graphics engine level, gameplay will be kept the same as the original game as much as possible.

[pinballdave]

I do not intend this to be a criticism on the abilities of the Legacy team or Atlas Park Revival team. This is probably the biggest rant outside of the vintage CoH posts regarding defenders.

I feel I must share some things about the turn of events regarding a deal that is NOT even completed yet. Fellow CoX players, there seems to be some rampant misinformation still swirling around.

First: The CoH Hail Mary / Legacy team initiated negotiations to buy the IP, intellectual property from NCSoft. The current understanding is that NCSoft countered by adding a binary copy of CoX I-23. There is NO indication that NCSoft has made any inclusion of the characters and CoX player data in the deal. For one, strictly speaking they legally cannot. The players in their agreement with NCSoft were afforded privacy in their agreement so NCSoft would not sell that data to third parties interested in soliciting the player base for MMO related marketing.

Second: Even if NCSoft were so inclined as to reinterpret the rules, and look the other way to bring player data to the deal, it is my opinion, the would want to do this in one big file transfer and not parcel out individual player legacy data requests. Finding individual player data records would be far more difficult than retrieving Lois Lerner's famous lost email. In terms of practicality, a Legacy player data request would be intriguing trying to make a connection from Legacy players via a master file sold to Legacy team of former CoH player data. NCSoft isn't going to individually fish out player data files, and the Legacy team isn't buying a huge player database which would be utilized fractionally for the Legacy population at a price I could only imagine.

Third: Just as surely as Statesman's character and story belong to NCSoft and that IP. Joe's Captain Underpants was never his to profit on. Joe could write fan-fiction on certain fan websites, but licenses for T-shirts, novels, songs, or movies with Captain Underpants are strictly against the user's player agreement with NCSoft. Those characters were NEVER yours, even realizing how much you enjoyed the experience with your previous characters. This is why Marvel sued NCSoft or Cryptic, not the players regarding the unlicensed likenesses of the eleventy-seven Wolverine inspired characters running around  belonged to CoH.

Fourth: I don't quite understand the intense feeling of entitlementd that folks are claiming over their level 50s. We as a community have lacked any CoH fix for almost 2 years. There is a chance and I mean IF the Legacy deal goes through, that we could play our characters from the creation to however long the servers last again. Isn't that what we originally enjoyed? Isn't playing I-23 or beta I-24 what we crave? All power to the Atlas Park Revival, but this clamor over what we may get in the Legacy deal is unwarranted.

[/rant]

[ivanhedgehog]

yes, blasters in particular were falling behind the other ATs.

It would be that shift in thinking that I was picking up on. My whole argument was based on my thoughts that there seemed to be such a shift.
Changes don't go on in a vacuum (except when talking about a game that does not currently exist ) so a shift in thinking would have affected the game. Without those who were running the game in place, anyone going forward with an I24 would have to be particularly aware of this... That's really my whole argument.

If there was a plan, does APR know of it and its details long term?.... that sounds like awful English, but I think it's correct.

I am betting that there will be contact with the devs if and when the deal goes through....probably some cool conversations aboit that.

[Shard]

First: The CoH Hail Mary / Legacy team initiated negotiations to buy the IP, intellectual property from NCSoft. The current understanding is that NCSoft countered by adding a binary copy of CoX I-23. There is NO indication that NCSoft has made any inclusion of the characters and CoX player data in the deal. For one, strictly speaking they legally cannot. The players in their agreement with NCSoft were afforded privacy in their agreement so NCSoft would not sell that data to third parties interested in soliciting the player base for MMO related marketing.

With regards to the user data, I cannot think of any scenario - when CoH was live or going forward - where this was not done without an opt in.  We certainly would not operate without one.

Second: Even if NCSoft were so inclined as to reinterpret the rules, and look the other way to bring player data to the deal, it is my opinion, the would want to do this in one big file transfer and not parcel out individual player legacy data requests. Finding individual player data records would be far more difficult than retrieving Lois Lerner's famous lost email.

Umm.  Short of the records no longer existing, I'm going have to disagree there.

Third: Just as surely as Statesman's character and story belong to NCSoft and that IP. Joe's Captain Underpants was never his to profit on. Joe could write fan-fiction on certain fan websites, but licenses for T-shirts, novels, songs, or movies with Captain Underpants are strictly against the user's player agreement with NCSoft. Those characters were NEVER yours, even realizing how much you enjoyed the experience with your previous characters. This is why Marvel sued NCSoft or Cryptic, not the players regarding the unlicensed likenesses of the eleventy-seven Wolverine inspired characters running around  belonged to CoH.

Not entirely certain what point you're looking to make here.

[halcyonforever]

 .

[Ankhammon]

I do not intend this to be a criticism on the abilities of the Legacy team or Atlas Park Revival team. This is probably the biggest rant outside of the vintage CoH posts regarding defenders.

I feel I must share some things about the turn of events regarding a deal that is NOT even completed yet. Fellow CoX players, there seems to be some rampant misinformation still swirling around...

Well said... but I really wanted a vintage Psylenz styled rant regarding defenders.