Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749118 times)

Remaugen

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 457
  • Android Clan of One
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2620 on: September 20, 2014, 01:28:58 AM »
We have always played our D20 tabletop games with natural die roll of one always being a Failure or Critical Failure and twenty always being a Success or Critical Success. Champion or not, it is a long standing traditional D20 house rule.
We're almost there!  ;D

The RNG hates me.

Zombie Hustler

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 264
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2621 on: September 20, 2014, 01:44:07 AM »
I thought that was Claven's Maxim.

Not wordy enough.

Power Gamer

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,865
  • Reaching troubled youth...one Hellion at a time!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2622 on: September 20, 2014, 01:51:08 AM »
We have always played our D20 tabletop games with natural die roll of one always being a Failure or Critical Failure and twenty always being a Success or Critical Success. Champion or not, it is a long standing traditional D20 house rule.

True, D20 games use the rule a natural 1 is auto fail, and a natural 20 auto succeed.
It takes a village to raise a child. And it takes a villain to explain the value of lunch money.

-Random CoHer: "Why does the sky turn green during Rikti invasions?"
-Me:"Rikti Monkey farts"
-Random CoHer: "I'm going to you for all my questions from now on!"

HEATSTROKE

  • Lovin' bein' an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2623 on: September 20, 2014, 01:54:25 AM »
Champions uses 3d6, not a d20, when attacking or making skill rolls, so it wasn't as simple as a straight 5% of the time attacks always hit and 5% of the time always miss.  Attack rolls follow a bell curve rather than the flat distribution of d20 based games, so that Champions and the Hero System have automatic succeed or fail results .46% of the time instead of 5% when rolling, which does make the automatic hits or misses more noteworthy since they each happen a bit less than a half a percent of the time.

Ive rolled a few 3's..... ah so sweet to see those Three 1's

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2624 on: September 20, 2014, 02:11:38 AM »
Champions uses 3d6, not a d20, when attacking or making skill rolls, so it wasn't as simple as a straight 5% of the time attacks always hit and 5% of the time always miss. 

D&D then, which does use D20. I've never played Champions myself so I (wrongly) assumed it was the same.

Minor aside, the Knights of the Old Republic console games used a D20 variant. Literally, you could swap over to the console page in the menu and see the dice rolls. It has the "20 = automatic hit" rule but I don't believe it uses the 1 as a failure.

I don't think the MMO based on it uses anything close to the same system, but it's something I always found amusing about the originals.

Blondeshell

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2625 on: September 20, 2014, 02:21:54 AM »
I never found accuracy a problem as much as endurance. I don't remember when they changed the way endurance was handled, but in later years I remember having lowbie characters run out of endurance half way through fighting a group with 2 minions and a Lieutenant and I always hated having to take a long break to rest seemingly between every encounter (again, on lowbies - I admit it, I'm an alt-o-holic).
Dude, invest in those +recov and +recov/+regen IOs in the healing set. One of each and one BIG numina lvl 50 Heal IO in every one of my toons. Plus, you can add the chance of +end (performance shifter IO proc) into stamina (it ill randomly proc a decent chunk of End every so often IIRC).

From there, make sure to get ALL your +Max End Accolades. That extra 10 (?) end is a huge difference.

Lastly, while I never waste a LOT of end redux in my attack powers (unless they are 15 or more End to cast), I do make sure the togs get some lubbin.

Unfortunately, none of that applies to lowbies, who can't slot Numina's Conv. until 25,

Close. It couldn't be slotted until level 27.
Quote
and can't get those accoldes until late game.

That depended on if you were a hero or a villain.

Heroes could theoretically get The Atlas Medallion and Portal Jockey at level 1, but villains were restricted to level 30 for Born in Battle and level 45 for Marshal.
Quote
I THINK Performance Shifter +end proc was available at level ten,

Actually, level 18.
Quote
but you couldn't take Stamina that early, if I recall, anyway.  If you took Swift at level 6, Health at level 8, then I guess you could get it at level 10, now that I think about it, but that means you haven't taken any actual powers since level four. 

Prior to becoming inherent in Issue 19, Stamina unlocked at level 20, so you could've had up to nine non-pool powers at that point.

Not trying to bust your butt on these. Time simply clouds the memory. :)

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2626 on: September 20, 2014, 02:22:33 AM »
I'd regularly find my to hit rolls in attack chains for alot of attacks consistently hover in 3-5% at times, rarely straying, actually.  I'd look at to hit roles all the time.  I had other moments where some mob rolled 33.5%, 34.7, then 32% in all three attacks he had on me(hitting EVERY time).

The game does use a PRNG, which means it's not perfectly random, but over time is a good approximation of it.

However, even if it was an overly streaky RNG (which I don't believe it is), the hit rolls in the situations you're describing aren't actually sequential outputs from it. Between one attack and the next, the engine generates dozens, possibly hundreds of random numbers. Hit rolls for enemy attacks, hit rolls each tick for pulsing damage auras against each enemy in range, hit rolls for what any other players on the map are doing, hit rolls for each target of an AoE, drop table rolls if anything was defeated by an AoE, hit rolls for targets possibly affected by Gauntlet if you're a tanker, and so on.

IOW, you're getting a stream of pseudorandom numbers, which is being sampled at nondeterministic times based on user input and complex conditions. Even if the RNG isn't perfect, you're going to get pretty good entropy out of it due to inherent randomness in how the numbers are used. Arcana's statistical studies over the years support that result.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2627 on: September 20, 2014, 02:25:07 AM »
True, D20 games use the rule a natural 1 is auto fail, and a natural 20 auto succeed.

Unless you have a DM who makes you roll a 100 sider when you roll a 1 to see how stupid you were.

Last time I played D&D. I had an argument with someone in our party. We decided to duel to the cut to settle things. I rolled a 1 followed by a ...1.
According to my DM, I slipped and fell on my own sword. My character was no more.

There are fails and then there are fails. :)
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Nyx Nought Nothing

  • New Efforts # 11,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
  • Ha!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2628 on: September 20, 2014, 02:43:48 AM »
D&D then, which does use D20. I've never played Champions myself so I (wrongly) assumed it was the same.

Minor aside, the Knights of the Old Republic console games used a D20 variant. Literally, you could swap over to the console page in the menu and see the dice rolls. It has the "20 = automatic hit" rule but I don't believe it uses the 1 as a failure.

I don't think the MMO based on it uses anything close to the same system, but it's something I always found amusing about the originals.
Champions is my all time favorite tabletop superhero game due to the enormous flexibility and customization of characters, so i'm slightly familiar with it. (Although i haven't actually played the game since a bit after 5th Edition was released.) As i recall most of the original CoH devs were also big Champions fans. Now for standard fantasy games i usually play D20 based games, mostly a 3.5 game set in the Forgotten Realms at the moment, but i've played a lot of non-D20 games.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2629 on: September 20, 2014, 02:49:53 AM »
I'd regularly find my to hit rolls in attack chains for alot of attacks consistently hover in 3-5% at times, rarely straying, actually.  I'd look at to hit roles all the time.  I had other moments where some mob rolled 33.5%, 34.7, then 32% in all three attacks he had on me(hitting EVERY time).

Not saying the to hit roles are biased but really if one attacks fast enough strangely I noticed very strange numbers rolling.  I wouldn't say at all in fact that the random number generator was evenly distributed.  Each 1% should have a 1% chance of rolling, but just from play experience overall I found that not to be the case.  This is from play experience and looking at the numbers in actual combat at the time the game was running.

Edit: I would say, more the hit roles were strange, at best.

If you still have combat logs, I would be more than happy to analyze them for tohit roll anomalies.  What I discovered based on analyzing all of my tohit rolls was:

1.  Every possible tohit roll showed up equally often within the limits of statistical variance, with one exception: 100.00 and 0.00 showed the obvious inevitable roundoff issue (they each showed up half as often as all other rolls).  This was not statistically significant for players.
2.  Every possible tohit roll followed every possible tohit roll within statistical limits.  In other words, whenever you rolled 5.12, the odds of rolling any of all possible rolls was identical.
3.  Every possible range of tohit rolls followed every other possible tohit roll range within statistical limits.  In other words, if you rolled under 50%, it was equally likely the next roll would be under or over 50%.  The same statement could be made for odd and even rolls, for rolls within the ten decimal bands, the one hundred single point bands, and the 5% bracket bands.
4.  Rolls 5% and under and 95% and over happened with exactly the correct statistical likelihood.
5.  Rolls on different servers showed the same even distribution, for all the servers examined.
6.  Rolls that occurred before or after streakbreaker events showed the same flat distribution.
7.  Events designated with a percent chance to hit occurred as often as their defined chance specified relative to all potential occurrences.
8.  Using the tohit rolls as a binary source created a file that was basically incompressible.
9.  The difference between successive tohit rolls modulo 100 showed the same distribution as the tohit rolls themselves.
10.  Plotting tohit rolls using pairs and triples as two and three dimensional vectors showed no signs of clustering.

Also, the developers told me the game engine used the clib rand() or something similar, which while some versions are known to have some cryptographically significant biases, contain no biases that an MMO player could possibly detect through gameplay.  The only way for players to see what you were seeing would be if the tohit system used a broken rand.  And a broken rand would be something I would have detected almost immediately.

Its like this: I can conceive of someone bringing loaded dice to a game.  If the dice consistently rolled 5s more often, you could believe the dice might be skewed.  But if someone suggested during a game that the dice were consistently rolling lower numbers when a bus drove by, and higher numbers when a Honda commercial was on television, you'd doubt their observations because dice don't work that way.  They can be fair or skewed, but they can't choose when to be skewed.  In the same way, the CoH tohit system can't roll different random numbers depending on whose playing or what powersets are being used or what the condition of the characters is, because RAND() cannot be aware of those things.

You might have been seeing *something*.  Years of people reporting all sorts of goofy behavior involving defense turned out to be the simple fact that people were relying on the value of lucks being correct in their description.  Because they were not, the game did not behave as they expected it to.  And because of that, their minds began trying to come up with an explanation for the odd behavior but because they continued to trust the inspiration label, their mental model theories *could not* match reality.  So they became bizarre instead.  People reported to me that lucks did not work at all, unless you overstacked them.  People reported to me that lucks would sometimes simply stop working a few seconds after using them.  Some people reported that using reds would cancel out a luck.  Some people said that some lucks worked fine while others were "broken" and you could tell which ones were broken because they were a slightly different color (spoiled?).

The truth was that lucks that were labelled as being +25% were actually +12.5% (the others were all mislabeled also).  That's all.  And once I discovered that, at least some of the observations I thought were insane started to have a potential explanation.  If you think two small lucks will floor a minion (+50% defense), when they actually cause the minion to start hitting half as often (from 50% chance to hit to 25%), you might not notice that enough to realize the lucks were doing something.  Then you stack two more and suddenly the minion stops hitting all together (because if a minion is hitting one in 20 they might not even live long enough to get the one lucky hit).  Ergo, you start believing Lucks don't start working until you overstack them.  You might start believing that sometimes they do work (because you pop them and get lucky and the critter starts missing) and then they stop working (because the critter hits twice in a row).  You might start seeing "hits one quarter of the time" as "sometimes not hitting at all and sometimes hitting a lot" and start auto-correlating that to other events: the hits start coming when I pop a red, or a green, or the cat walks into the room.

*All* of those weird luck observations were the result of a text typo that no one including the devs caught until I tested them (very pre-real numbers).  The players were seeing something, but I guarantee they were not seeing what they thought they were seeing.  And interestingly, within a couple months of my posting the lucks and insights article, all such player reports basically stopped.

So I never assume players are completely imagining things.  I'm simply saying that whatever you thought you saw, the one thing it almost certainly could not have been was a skewed random tohit roll.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2630 on: September 20, 2014, 03:06:21 AM »
Champions is my all time favorite tabletop superhero game due to the enormous flexibility and customization of characters, so i'm slightly familiar with it. (Although i haven't actually played the game since a bit after 5th Edition was released.) As i recall most of the original CoH devs were also big Champions fans. Now for standard fantasy games i usually play D20 based games, mostly a 3.5 game set in the Forgotten Realms at the moment, but i've played a lot of non-D20 games.

A part of me wonders if Champions itself was the cause of the devs believing that the mathematics for designing a game like City of Heroes was not very difficult, and could be copied pretty much right from a PnP game.

It can't; there are complex mathematical reasons why this is a horrible idea that basically come down to three things:

1.  In PnP games human GMs moderate the extremes.  In fact, in many editions of Champions there are explicit warnings in the rulebooks strongly suggesting to human GMs that they either consider not even allowing the power or making sure its not abused by the players.  Human GMs can look at a Fire/Fire tank that wants to run a mission with nothing but flammable villains and say "yeah, no."  A computer will happily go along with that.  If you want your character weakness in Champions to be lactose intolerance, fine, I'll let it go.  Then I'll drown you with the Milk Monster.

2.  PnP games are designed for a specific combat pace where coarser numbers generate controllable and manageable combat for the human beings.  Computer games are designed for a far faster pace where small numerical issues can quickly snowball.  If you were twice as powerful as the enemies in D&D, that still didn't mean you could blast through the game.  That advantage was muted by the framework of the gameplay.  In City of Heroes, if you were twice as powerful as the PvE critters, you could herd up a bunch and rapidly accelerate your kill rate.  Combining #1 with #2 could obliterate whole zones.

3.  In PnP games, the numerical combat is only a small fraction of everything that goes on.  In most MMOs, its 90% of what goes on.  You can't make up for loose combat with other activities.  Champions was *horribly* unbalanced.  It was *balanced enough* for humans to play it.  But numerically speaking, the designers didn't do all that great a job with it, in spite of what many players think.  And what's more, the designers knew it: they knew that the system allowed for ridiculous extremes and presumed human GMs would leverage that when possible and control it when necessary.

The really short version is that what makes a good PnP system is to have the expressive power to allow the GM and the players to have the latitude to create a good playing environment.  What makes a good MMO system is that its mechanically predictable, and does what the designers intended when they aren't around to dictate what happens.  Those two goals are largely incompatible.

I tried to explain this on the Champions Online beta boards, and boy was I hammered there (one helpful individual, because I was posting anonymously there, suggested that before I make such outrageous claims I go find Arcanaville on the CoH boards so that person could set me straight).

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2631 on: September 20, 2014, 03:08:16 AM »
The game does use a PRNG, which means it's not perfectly random, but over time is a good approximation of it.

However, even if it was an overly streaky RNG (which I don't believe it is), the hit rolls in the situations you're describing aren't actually sequential outputs from it. Between one attack and the next, the engine generates dozens, possibly hundreds of random numbers. Hit rolls for enemy attacks, hit rolls each tick for pulsing damage auras against each enemy in range, hit rolls for what any other players on the map are doing, hit rolls for each target of an AoE, drop table rolls if anything was defeated by an AoE, hit rolls for targets possibly affected by Gauntlet if you're a tanker, and so on.

IOW, you're getting a stream of pseudorandom numbers, which is being sampled at nondeterministic times based on user input and complex conditions. Even if the RNG isn't perfect, you're going to get pretty good entropy out of it due to inherent randomness in how the numbers are used. Arcana's statistical studies over the years support that result.

Go figure, what likely when it generates the numbers, it may be that the game is choosing similar numbers to much as somewhere in there the clock ends up repeating in the time frame, maybe dozens of times, but still in a way that I end up with the weird results I'd get in an actual fight.

I mean you should NOT see an enemy mob get three numbers that are so close together, and at the same time in an attack chain, the same attack shouldn't be missing repeatedly on such similar numbers.  The streak breaker was good but it didn't prevent every ounce of sillyness.

I could make a small chart of how combat went, say the hit chance was 87%, rolling above would be a miss.

I saw crap like this happen regularly;

Chain 1:
Attack 1: 40 = hit
Attack 2: 64 = hit
Attack 3: 88.1 = miss (streak break detects a miss but sees that the last attack was a hit, disregards it)

Same combat, repeating the same attacks using exact same powers.
Chain 2:
Attack 1: 35 = hit
Attack 2: 75 = Hit
Attack 3: 89.5= Miss, (because once again the last two hit, the streak breaker DOESN'T force it to hit.)

The same power in that chain missed twice now....

Chain 3:
Attack 1: 42 = hit (again)
Attack 2: 70 = hit
Attack 3: 91 = miss again because I still hit on attack 2 and streak breaker doesn't trip.

Same power missed again......

At this point, i'd see the random number god was screwing with me.  This crap shouldn't be happening, so what I'd do is delay the action for #3, and hit finally.

The reason my earlier post mentions 34, 33 and 35 was because, likewise, a boss hit me three times in a row with almost litterally those numbers(there were decimals involved but I cannot remember the EXACT numbers).  Things like that are the core reason that I suspect a clock is involved in the pseudo random generator somewhere deeper down.

Numbers like that had no trouble repeating for me.  I still wouldn't say it was biased but very very strange in behavior.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 04:39:24 AM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2632 on: September 20, 2014, 03:36:07 AM »

The really short version is that what makes a good PnP system is to have the expressive power to allow the GM and the players to have the latitude to create a good playing environment.  What makes a good MMO system is that its mechanically predictable, and does what the designers intended when they aren't around to dictate what happens.  Those two goals are largely incompatible.

I tried to explain this on the Champions Online beta boards, and boy was I hammered there (one helpful individual, because I was posting anonymously there, suggested that before I make such outrageous claims I go find Arcanaville on the CoH boards so that person could set me straight).

Some unpredictability makes for more interesting games, but I do see what you mean there.  The sad thing is CO would behave even less consistently then any other game I played to be honest, in that there were so many bugs that people found ways to become invincible, or pull off 10,000 damage hits from attacks that should have only done at the most a tenth of that.  Go figure.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2633 on: September 20, 2014, 03:37:57 AM »
Numbers like that had no trouble repeating for me.  I still wouldn't say it was biased but very very strange in behavior.

I honestly don't see what the problem is from your description.  For an attack with 87% chance tohit, the sequence hit, hit, miss will occur about ten percent of all attack chains.  And the misses *have to be* similar numbers, because misses have to be between 87 and 100.

You're doing something called "double-counting."  You are noting that you're seeing the third attack miss three times in a row which is uncommon, and the third roll is very similar which is uncommon, and asserting that's even more uncommon.  But actually, you are describing the same event in two different non-independent ways.

What Codewalker is talking about is that if the rand was somehow generating non-random numbers, because its the same rand for a number of different players on the same server instance, the only way for you to see what you are seeing is not just for the rand to be broken, you would have to somehow pick out those weird rolls yourself.  If just one other player fired an attack instead of not firing it, or held fire instead of firing it, your weird random number roll would disappear.  Those other players would have to somehow be conspiring to take just the right number of random rolls to leave behind the ones that are generating your weird results.  Even if you think the game server is acting strangely in some way, how could those other players possibly conspire with the server to do that?  Because if they don't, nothing the server's random number generator does can slip those numbers to you.

Its like a deck of cards you are picking the top card off of.  If you get a string of weird cards, you might think the deck was loaded that way.  But if in between the cards you took a random number of people took a random number of cards for themselves, then the only way for your cards to show an unusual pattern would be for all those people to be in on the trick.  Otherwise, they would disrupt any strangeness that was put into the deck.

Pyromantic

  • New Efforts # 16,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2634 on: September 20, 2014, 03:50:45 AM »
I tried to explain this on the Champions Online beta boards, and boy was I hammered there (one helpful individual, because I was posting anonymously there, suggested that before I make such outrageous claims I go find Arcanaville on the CoH boards so that person could set me straight).

That one made me laugh.

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2635 on: September 20, 2014, 04:27:17 AM »
I honestly don't see what the problem is from your description.  For an attack with 87% chance tohit, the sequence hit, hit, miss will occur about ten percent of all attack chains.  And the misses *have to be* similar numbers, because misses have to be between 87 and 100.

You're doing something called "double-counting."  You are noting that you're seeing the third attack miss three times in a row which is uncommon, and the third roll is very similar which is uncommon, and asserting that's even more uncommon.  But actually, you are describing the same event in two different non-independent ways.

What Codewalker is talking about is that if the rand was somehow generating non-random numbers, because its the same rand for a number of different players on the same server instance, the only way for you to see what you are seeing is not just for the rand to be broken, you would have to somehow pick out those weird rolls yourself.  If just one other player fired an attack instead of not firing it, or held fire instead of firing it, your weird random number roll would disappear.  Those other players would have to somehow be conspiring to take just the right number of random rolls to leave behind the ones that are generating your weird results.  Even if you think the game server is acting strangely in some way, how could those other players possibly conspire with the server to do that?  Because if they don't, nothing the server's random number generator does can slip those numbers to you.

Its like a deck of cards you are picking the top card off of.  If you get a string of weird cards, you might think the deck was loaded that way.  But if in between the cards you took a random number of people took a random number of cards for themselves, then the only way for your cards to show an unusual pattern would be for all those people to be in on the trick.  Otherwise, they would disrupt any strangeness that was put into the deck.

I'm just going by experience of things I remember actually HAPPENING IN THE GAME.  What part of that don't you understand?  And it DID happen regularly to me.  It happened regularly until I was usually late 30s or early 40s when I started really stacking +to hit in addition to accuracy.  I always had an effective chance to hit of 120 or so, a good 25-35 above the max chance to hit of 95% for a reason.

I'm going by, again, what happened to ME when I played the game.

Edit: Oh, also notice the OTHER numbers are similar to each other to, because frequently they WOULD be.

Another Edit:  That same post those were 9 attacks in a row in the same combat to, or should be seen as such.  I'll clear that up a bit.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 04:38:33 AM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Moonlighter

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2636 on: September 20, 2014, 04:29:38 AM »
What I discovered based on analyzing all of my tohit rolls was:

The one thing I noticed was that using temp powers in my chain messed up the streak breaker because of the lower accuracy of those attacks. Don't know if that was a "real" thing or not.

Moonlighter~

ivanhedgehog

  • New Efforts # 25,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2637 on: September 20, 2014, 04:53:55 AM »
The game does use a PRNG, which means it's not perfectly random, but over time is a good approximation of it.

However, even if it was an overly streaky RNG (which I don't believe it is), the hit rolls in the situations you're describing aren't actually sequential outputs from it. Between one attack and the next, the engine generates dozens, possibly hundreds of random numbers. Hit rolls for enemy attacks, hit rolls each tick for pulsing damage auras against each enemy in range, hit rolls for what any other players on the map are doing, hit rolls for each target of an AoE, drop table rolls if anything was defeated by an AoE, hit rolls for targets possibly affected by Gauntlet if you're a tanker, and so on.

IOW, you're getting a stream of pseudorandom numbers, which is being sampled at nondeterministic times based on user input and complex conditions. Even if the RNG isn't perfect, you're going to get pretty good entropy out of it due to inherent randomness in how the numbers are used. Arcana's statistical studies over the years support that result.

swtor has problems with their implementation of the rng... things like a 20% of reverse engineering an item, rolling 142 times and not getting it. thats not that uncommon in swtor. a rng will explain variances in a lot of things and outcomes that just suck, but there are points that you have to question the code that applies the rng. it is always possible you made an oops. I never appreciated how accessable COX devs were to discuss the game they made.

ivanhedgehog

  • New Efforts # 25,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2638 on: September 20, 2014, 05:05:18 AM »
I honestly don't see what the problem is from your description.  For an attack with 87% chance tohit, the sequence hit, hit, miss will occur about ten percent of all attack chains.  And the misses *have to be* similar numbers, because misses have to be between 87 and 100.

You're doing something called "double-counting."  You are noting that you're seeing the third attack miss three times in a row which is uncommon, and the third roll is very similar which is uncommon, and asserting that's even more uncommon.  But actually, you are describing the same event in two different non-independent ways.

What Codewalker is talking about is that if the rand was somehow generating non-random numbers, because its the same rand for a number of different players on the same server instance, the only way for you to see what you are seeing is not just for the rand to be broken, you would have to somehow pick out those weird rolls yourself.  If just one other player fired an attack instead of not firing it, or held fire instead of firing it, your weird random number roll would disappear.  Those other players would have to somehow be conspiring to take just the right number of random rolls to leave behind the ones that are generating your weird results.  Even if you think the game server is acting strangely in some way, how could those other players possibly conspire with the server to do that?  Because if they don't, nothing the server's random number generator does can slip those numbers to you.

Its like a deck of cards you are picking the top card off of.  If you get a string of weird cards, you might think the deck was loaded that way.  But if in between the cards you took a random number of people took a random number of cards for themselves, then the only way for your cards to show an unusual pattern would be for all those people to be in on the trick.  Otherwise, they would disrupt any strangeness that was put into the deck.

when wing recipes were release, I never got one in the entire time before the next release. And i leveled multiple toons to 50 in that time. over 1 million prestige earned in that time. other people were cleaning up withthe things but not me.I had an idea that my random number "seed" or whatever was twisted, but how do you prove it. all I wanted was a pair of wings and couldnt get one to save my life.

tripthicket

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2639 on: September 20, 2014, 05:55:45 AM »
I tried to explain this on the Champions Online beta boards, and boy was I hammered there (one helpful individual, because I was posting anonymously there, suggested that before I make such outrageous claims I go find Arcanaville on the CoH boards so that person could set me straight).

What do you call it when you, the expert in question, are dismissed and told to go get the real answers from yourself, elsewhere? A mix of pride and exasperation? Prideration? Exasperide? I'd almost be willing to bet that no one else on these forums have even so much as heard about this type of thing happening to anyone else, anywhere, let alone seen it for themselves.

That gets a badge, right?  8)