Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1748917 times)

darkgob

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5520 on: April 21, 2015, 03:43:41 AM »
Here's a question for you all:

The defeat and achievement badges could not gain progress from AE missions, the premise for that was that people could setup custom farm missions and farm the appropriate targets to get the badge.

Yet we also gained the ability to set regular mission difficulty and spawn size, so someone could set a mission to -1 difficulty and 8 spawn size and farm it to achieve the desired badge.

So...does it matter whether it comes from a regular mission or an AE mission?  We could customize mission difficulty and farm any old skull or troll mission for those badges or whatever defeat badge you were seeking, or custom build a mission in the AE to achieve the same thing? Either way it is farming for the badge

So once the game returns and changes can be made, should the AE be allowed to give progress on defeat/achievement badges?

The difficulty slider applied to all missions, including AE.  The difference, as I suspect you realize, is that AE missions could be tweaked such that they represent a lesser threat than the average regular mission; in other words, they're easier.

Now, you may not consider this to be a problem anyway, because farming is farming.  But to the devs, it was antithetical to the purpose they designed for badges.  Farming the regular game for badges is one thing, but gaming the system to make it easier to farm is really an exploit, behavior not intended by the designers of the system.  So naturally they're not going to program a deliberate exploit into their system unless they change their philosophies.  I suspect you'd find any dev in a similar position would agree with that.

Aggelakis

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5521 on: April 21, 2015, 03:56:07 AM »
So once the game returns and changes can be made, should the AE be allowed to give progress on defeat/achievement badges?
I have an answer you're not going to like:

I don't think AE should have any link to the actual game at all. No XP, no inf, no kill credits, nothing. The only reward should be tickets, which you use to buy thinks things to use in AE, and AE-related badges (not bought with tickets - earned as they were already). That way the farmers go find something else to do, and their crap eventually disappears...and the stories remain, the things that the devs wanted to encourage in the first place.

I also think we should remove the rating system and replace it with thumbsup/thumbsdown. With enough ups, the devs would look it over and judge whether to turn on 'regular rewards' for it - like the Dev Choice stuff before - very exclusive, small number of really good arcs.

[[EDIT: grammar and clarifications]]
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 05:40:57 AM by Aggelakis »
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JanessaVR

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5522 on: April 21, 2015, 04:05:00 AM »
I have an answer you're not going to like:

I don't think AE should have any link to the actual game at all. No XP, no inf, no kill credits, nothing. The only reward should be tickets, which you use to buy thinks to use in AE, and AE-related badges. That way the farmers go find something else to do, and their crap eventually disappears...and the stories remain, the things that the devs wanted to encourage in the first place.

I also think we should remove the rating system and replace it with thumbsup/thumbsdown. With enough ups, the devs would look it over and judge whether to turn on 'regular rewards' for it - like the Dev Choice stuff before - very exclusive, small number of really good arcs.
I wouldn't really object to that - if the Ticket drop rate went up rather considerably.  After all, it won't actually stop farmers - I am one (some of the time), and we'll find other ways to farm.  If CoH was up and running again, and even if we had all the source code to make whatever changes we wanted, you still can't prevent farming.  As the saying goes - you can't stop the game, all you can do is change the rules.

Aggelakis

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5523 on: April 21, 2015, 04:10:55 AM »
That's why I said "That way the farmers go find something else to do" :) I don't mind farmers, but I do mind their crap getting in the way of my crap. :p
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Drauger9

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5524 on: April 21, 2015, 04:18:51 AM »
I wouldn't really object to that - if the Ticket drop rate went up rather considerably.  After all, it won't actually stop farmers - I am one (some of the time), and we'll find other ways to farm.  If CoH was up and running again, and even if we had all the source code to make whatever changes we wanted, you still can't prevent farming.  As the saying goes - you can't stop the game, all you can do is change the rules.

Agreed, I'd just go back to farming purples, TFs, Hero Merits, ect... I actually did near the end. I just love seeing those big purple letters saying RECIPE on my screen. I'd also have an alt doorsitting while I was doing it. AE to me didn't have a farming problem. It had a respect problem, the main reason most people complain about others farming AE was. That the starting zone was flooded with farmers and newbies getting PLed. Who didn't know there was other zones or even more to the game.

Now in the corner of the farmers. It was the perfect place to farm, you roll a new alt on a alt account. There's your alt and the AE building. Then a hop, skip and a jump away is the market. Why would they go anywhere else? Well out of respect, why couldn't you farm/level your alt in Steel Canyon? Sure the trainers and market where a distance away but if you took tp other if you had the extra power slot. Along with your other travel powers. It shouldn't of been to much of a burden.

I'm guilty of farming in Atlas as well, until I personally got tired of the clutter, people wining and realized that I could simply move to another zone. I mean, I had SS, SJ and tp other on my fire brute. The hardest part of moving my alt around was Alt+Tab to the other screen.

On the lowbies wanting to get PLed, if farmers would of moved to other zones. Then the lowbies would of had to get atleast a few levels on their own. Before getting to the zone where farmers where at, or they had to be creative. Like the lowbies on redside :P.

Either way, if everyone would of set their differences aside. Maybe we as a community could of found away to co-exits?

Remaugen

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5525 on: April 21, 2015, 04:25:15 AM »
I have an answer you're not going to like:

I don't think AE should have any link to the actual game at all. No XP, no inf, no kill credits, nothing. The only reward should be tickets, which you use to buy thinks to use in AE, and AE-related badges. That way the farmers go find something else to do, and their crap eventually disappears...and the stories remain, the things that the devs wanted to encourage in the first place.

I also think we should remove the rating system and replace it with thumbsup/thumbsdown. With enough ups, the devs would look it over and judge whether to turn on 'regular rewards' for it - like the Dev Choice stuff before - very exclusive, small number of really good arcs.

Or perhaps make it so each toon only gets XP and Infl once per each AE mission, so that running the same one over and over produces no reward.
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Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5526 on: April 21, 2015, 05:45:46 AM »
Or perhaps make it so each toon only gets XP and Infl once per each AE mission, so that running the same one over and over produces no reward.

Trivially exploitable: just keep publishing the same mission over and over, but under different names with trivial differences in content.

JanessaVR

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5527 on: April 21, 2015, 06:20:13 AM »
Trivially exploitable: just keep publishing the same mission over and over, but under different names with trivial differences in content.
Indeed.  As a bit of a related trick, a friend of mine hid his best farming AE mishes by giving them garbled, nonsense names; they never showed up on anyone's keyword searches.

Solitaire

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5528 on: April 21, 2015, 06:47:42 AM »
I have an answer you're not going to like:

I don't think AE should have any link to the actual game at all. No XP, no inf, no kill credits, nothing. The only reward should be tickets, which you use to buy thinks things to use in AE, and AE-related badges (not bought with tickets - earned as they were already). That way the farmers go find something else to do, and their crap eventually disappears...and the stories remain, the things that the devs wanted to encourage in the first place.

I also think we should remove the rating system and replace it with thumbsup/thumbsdown. With enough ups, the devs would look it over and judge whether to turn on 'regular rewards' for it - like the Dev Choice stuff before - very exclusive, small number of really good arcs.

[[EDIT: grammar and clarifications]]

I like these ideas, the AE in my opinion was there for people to have their stories on display for others to enjoy or dislike, but at least there was the opportunity for us to express are story telling talents or not in my case  ;)

JanessaVR

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5529 on: April 21, 2015, 07:00:31 AM »
Alternately, for easy filtering, you could introduce a flag for all AE mishes.  In exchange for no longer cracking down on them, all AE farming mishes will be left alone by the devs - as long as they are clearly labeled as such.  Then, with a single mouse click on the AE missions search menu, all farming mishes can be filtered out.  This effectively segregates them from all the actual storytelling arcs.

Vee

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5530 on: April 21, 2015, 07:42:59 AM »
There were several times i decided to level lowbies through actual AE arcs and i never had any trouble finding non-farm arcs with the boolean search function. I can't figure out if people just didn't use that function or if people are more upset that no one was playing their arcs or that people who were playing them expected them to be farms and downrated them.

In any event I'd be really annoyed if the rewards were removed from AE. That's where I'd get all my rare and pricey common salvage. That's basically all I used it for other than occasionally pl'ing friends who were leveling late blooming toons. I was of the opinion that no one should have to suffer through a pre-18 illusion troller like I did, e.g.

Noyjitat

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5531 on: April 21, 2015, 01:06:28 PM »
try getting an enemy targeted heal to hit on recluse in the STF when the towers are still up. good luck with that.
The easiest way to tank recluse in this phase is to just taunt him and hover up high in front the tower. Not the buff tower but the big tower that his headquarters. He'll try to get the taunter but wont be able to as he keeps falling and teleporting. ( he automatically teleports if you try to kite him away from the buff towers) Then just hit him with another taunt when he runs back to you so he doesnt unaggro.

Im kinda surprised as I assumed most people knew this trick.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 01:11:48 PM by Noyjitat »

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5532 on: April 21, 2015, 02:50:37 PM »

That's how I always tanked him... easiest and safest. Then the rest of the team could just focus on the towers.


When I would run with my Illusion/Rad troller friends... we would just have two of us alternate Phantom Army so they always had his attention.

The easiest way to tank recluse in this phase is to just taunt him and hover up high in front the tower. Not the buff tower but the big tower that his headquarters. He'll try to get the taunter but wont be able to as he keeps falling and teleporting. ( he automatically teleports if you try to kite him away from the buff towers) Then just hit him with another taunt when he runs back to you so he doesnt unaggro.

Im kinda surprised as I assumed most people knew this trick.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5533 on: April 21, 2015, 03:19:20 PM »
I have an answer you're not going to like:

I don't think AE should have any link to the actual game at all. No XP, no inf, no kill credits, nothing. The only reward should be tickets, which you use to buy thinks things to use in AE, and AE-related badges (not bought with tickets - earned as they were already). That way the farmers go find something else to do, and their crap eventually disappears...and the stories remain, the things that the devs wanted to encourage in the first place.

I also think we should remove the rating system and replace it with thumbsup/thumbsdown. With enough ups, the devs would look it over and judge whether to turn on 'regular rewards' for it - like the Dev Choice stuff before - very exclusive, small number of really good arcs.

[[EDIT: grammar and clarifications]]

I feel that would send AE to the dustbin. the only people using it would be a few rp'ers. not a very good return for the development cost.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5534 on: April 21, 2015, 03:28:53 PM »
I have an answer you're not going to like:

I don't think AE should have any link to the actual game at all. No XP, no inf, no kill credits, nothing. The only reward should be tickets, which you use to buy thinks things to use in AE, and AE-related badges (not bought with tickets - earned as they were already). That way the farmers go find something else to do, and their crap eventually disappears...and the stories remain, the things that the devs wanted to encourage in the first place.

I also think we should remove the rating system and replace it with thumbsup/thumbsdown. With enough ups, the devs would look it over and judge whether to turn on 'regular rewards' for it - like the Dev Choice stuff before - very exclusive, small number of really good arcs.

[[EDIT: grammar and clarifications]]

I feel the would send AE to the dustbin. the only people using it would be a few rp'ers. not a very good return for the development cost.

The system is (or was) already setup, so just leave it, but like what Agge said just take out all the reward in the system except tickets. For people using AE, I assume the reward would be making the mission and sharing it with people, not the actual reward of XP/Inf and for the few rp'ers (I am not a rp'er so I am assuming), that is reward enough for them.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5535 on: April 21, 2015, 04:12:50 PM »
I feel the would send AE to the dustbin. the only people using it would be a few rp'ers. not a very good return for the development cost.


The system is (or was) already setup, so just leave it, but like what Agge said just take out all the reward in the system except tickets. For people using AE, I assume the reward would be making the mission and sharing it with people, not the actual reward of XP/Inf and for the few rp'ers (I am not a rp'er so I am assuming), that is reward enough for them.

is the amount of use(the return) enough for the expense(time to make the change)? add in the fact that you leave a prominent hole for any non rp'er using the game. the actual farmers werent that big a nuisance. I did not farm AE, but I feel that turning it into a ghost town wont help the game.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5536 on: April 21, 2015, 05:11:34 PM »
is the amount of use(the return) enough for the expense(time to make the change)? add in the fact that you leave a prominent hole for any non rp'er using the game. the actual farmers werent that big a nuisance. I did not farm AE, but I feel that turning it into a ghost town wont help the game.

That could be said about anything in the game. Is PvP worth it to turn back on because it will have a small community. Is base making worth turning back on too? I don't know the technical detail on how it works (if it is just "pulling some switches" or something more complicated), but the the system is already in place, if it doesn't need any or much maintenance to startup again, and not take away from activating the core game, I don't see why not having it in the game. Probably just me, but I know it would suck to be marginalized in the game because your play style is in the minority and for those who enjoyed AE, it feel wrong to discount them when the game comes back. Course this is just my opinion.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5537 on: April 21, 2015, 05:17:34 PM »
I kind of agree about AE, honestly I think a better compromise would be that you couldn't gain influence or experience if you had played the game a good while(as in enough to get 2-3 50s).  Newbies were the ones most negatively effected by it, as they'd hit 50 but not know a single thing about the game.  While newcomers did get powerleveled sometimes, yeah, you also have to remember that most wouldn't know where to go to get power leveled.  But AE see, it was right there, in the very first zone you entered. 

One shouldn't be able to legitimately hit 50 without ever leaving atlas park.

That goes for the Sewer trial(the one introduced later, not the original one) to, maybe limit it to level 10 before making it give exp?  Like change it so that it temporarily turns off experience when you are level 10 or higher.  The other task forces don't need this treatment, just the sewer mission.


Edit: And yeah you could up the tickets or something gained from AE, but I think that reward should be confined to higher level characters to.
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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5538 on: April 21, 2015, 06:33:38 PM »
That could be said about anything in the game. Is PvP worth it to turn back on because it will have a small community. Is base making worth turning back on too?

Removing PVP or bases would be a considerable amount of work and probably not possible without the source*. Those kinds of things are deeply integrated in the game and aren't modules that can just be pulled out at will.

About the only pieces that you could conceivably bring the game up without, though I don't know why you'd do that, are the ones that relied on an external server process. Ones that we had seen fail at some point or another on live and know for sure are external:

* Account system for microtransactions (though removing this would make everyone lose all their vet rewards and stuff that had once been purchasable, even if it had been granted for free)
* AE Mission Storage
* Auction House
* Global Chat / Friends List / Email (same server for both)
* LFG Queue for Incarnate Trials

The arena matchmaking system might be separate as well, though I can't recall an instance where it didn't work. Even if that could be disabled, PVP zones would still function.



* Unless you're talking about remaking the whole game from scratch, but that's a whole other ball of wax with things that would be a lot more difficult to replicate.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5539 on: April 21, 2015, 06:34:31 PM »
I have an answer you're not going to like:

I have *the* answer, and generally almost nobody likes it.  But the real problem with the AE from day one is the devs had the entirely wrong idea about what the AE was even supposed to be.  They saw it as a way to allow players to write their own content.  That's wrong for one simple reason: most players can't write content.  By focusing on making things easy for *authors* they made the experience terrible for *consumers*.  Really, most of the architectural complaints about the AE boil down to that one simple fact.

The focus of the AE should have been on *consumers* of the content, not the writers.  Which is to say, for every decision about the AE, the question should have been whether it improves the experience for players playing the content.  I once told the devs that a big mistake they made was believing 10,000 authors was a success.  50,000 authors is a failure, because there's no possible way 50,000 of our players were even literate, much less competent authors.  Success, for the AE, should not have been 50,000 authors and few players liking the content.  It should have been few authors and 50,000 players loving the content.

We should have been a lot harsher on authors.  We should not have been crying about how unfair it was to authors.  We were looking for a fair rating system for authors.  As an AE author, I say screw the authors.  What matters is that good AE missions survive and reach their audience, and everything else dies.  If you want to publish a nonsensical grammatically random gibberish storm for yourself and your close friends to play, I was all for that - but with the catch that it was likely *no one* would ever find it unless they were explicitly searching for it.  But if you actually wanted total strangers to play your work, it should have had to pass significant stress tests and reviews.

If you're primarily focused on the top 100, or 500, or even 1000 AE missions and arcs, questions like "what rewards should AE arcs have" and "how do we make a search system that works for players" start to become a lot simpler to answer.  When you're talking about the 300,000 streams of consciousness that were actually in the AE, farming arcs were not actually the biggest problem.  They were a symptom of the fact that people needed a reason to play AE content, and "for the rewards" isn't the only such reason people would, but it was the only reason they could easily satisfy.  "For the stories" was an extremely difficult proposition for people not expert in finding things that qualified as stories.

The idea of dev-approved arcs having standard rewards was a good idea in theory, but because of the fact the AE generated more arcs in a day than the entire dev team could play in a week, it was impossible to execute on.  And their hearts really were not in it, AND they were worried about being "fair" to authors, which once again is the cement shoes around the ankles of the AE.  Be fair to the poor players that are going to be exposed to the content.  For a business to be successful, it needs as many customers as possible, not as many employees as possible.

I actually had a lot of respect for Venture, bastard that he was about it, reviewing AE arcs with no concern for authors' feelings at all, and only looking at them from the perspective of the player that had to run them.  Because that's what really matters: does it generate content that players actually want to run and enjoy running.  Its ultimately the only thing that matters, and any AE author who disagrees in my opinion shouldn't be an author.  Even I had trouble being that blunt, and to be honest I think that was a mistake on my part.

So this is what I would do if I was rebooting the AE and had enough resources to yada-yada-yada.  First, anyone can make any arc they want, but that arc would have *no* rewards.  They could play through it, or guide friends through it, and there would be no limitations on what you could do in these.  You could even do things the devs originally banned for being exploitable, because exploits don't matter if there are no rewards.  Fight Hamidon if you want, or spawn all the Praetorians at once.  Test your build against pylons, or herd all of Creys Folly into a dumpster.  No rewards, so nothing is off-limits.  I'm sure there are players that would take advantage of that, rewards be damned.  I would even create arena-like switches for those missions that would allow players to turn on and off certain effects, like travel suppression or the aggro cap (yes this requires a lot of code).

If you actually want your arc to have rewards, you'd have to submit it for approval.  There would be two tiers.  Tier 1 arcs would only award AE tickets and would have to meet certain well documented parameters.  For example, some of those switches would be illegal in tier 1 arcs.  We'd also run an automatic spell checker, and if you can't even be bothered to spell check, you get rejected.  You'd have to show evidence you've put the requisite work into the arc to be deserving of any consideration at all.  If the arc met the limits of most AE arcs, you'd get tier 1 certified quickly and your arc would award tickets.  It would also be searchable as a tier 1 arc.

Tier 2 would be tricky.  Unlike tier 1, it would reward standard rewards.  And trickily, also unlike tier 1 it would have almost no limits.  You could do things in Tier 2 you couldn't in tier 1.  The catch is you'd have to submit the arc for special review.  I would create a set of community reviewers pulled from volunteers with experience making tier 1 and tier 2 arcs, and they would be tasked with reviewing potential tier 2 arcs for problems, exploits, and quality of content.  You'd need to have multiple approvals to be granted tier 2 certification, and you'd also be searchable as a tier 2 arc.

In all cases, people who tried to abuse the submission system in defiance of the guidelines would get warnings, then banned.  Arc creation and publication (for tier 1 and 2) would be a revocable privilege.

On top of all that, I would create a curation system.  Any player could create a curated AE list of their favorite or recommended missions, which players could see in-game.  Good reviewers would tend to get more followers, which would increase the reach of their recommendations.  "Softer" or less discriminating reviewers would tend to get less followers and less credibility.  This would encourage honest reviewing, but open the door to many different perspectives to operate that honesty in.  Someone that honestly likes a lot of combat but hates story could still be counted on to honestly review arcs with that perspective.  Someone that honestly likes story more than combat could be counted on to honestly view arcs with that perspective.  Different players with different perspectives but limited time to search around could gravitate to curators with similar sensibilities.

Not gonna happen, but that's what I think a consumer-focused AE system would look like.