Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1747861 times)

ivanhedgehog

  • New Efforts # 25,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5560 on: April 22, 2015, 09:28:12 PM »
Early on, it was possible for you to get up on the ledge on the front of the building, which put you at just the right height for Recluse to jump up after you, blow the jump, fall down, and keep repeating, leaving you able to taunt him each time he jumped, but the devs got wise to it and tweaked the barrier to move the ledge just outside the mission map limits.

that is using an exploit, not tanking him. I could do that with my blaster, fly above the street light and he would try to get to you and ignore all others.

ivanhedgehog

  • New Efforts # 25,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5561 on: April 22, 2015, 09:31:11 PM »
Well, they didn't only blame farming, and there were those that had realistic expectations, but in a sense trying to write for others is a tricky proposition.  You put yourself out there, and you make yourself vulnerable to the opinions of others.  Its not easy to see criticism as something other than a personal attack.  A lot of people can't do it.  As I said before, not everyone should be authors.

When Mercedes Lackey read my Immortal Game story, I asked for her opinion.  This was a project I had poured over a month of my time into, and over a week writing, and included a lot of my own ideas of CoH cosmology.  While she liked it, she thought there were significant technical flaws in certain areas, some in areas I had focused significant attention to.  And she was absolutely right.  She would have been doing me no favors pulling punches.  How many people get to have a professional writer give them even a few minutes of their time reading their work and suggesting ways to improve it.

Being able to take criticism, particularly from one's self, and use it to improve, is the hallmark of all good professional anythings, and extremely important for authors.  If you couldn't take someone taking your prized work and sticking post-it notes over all of its flaws as they saw it, you were probably not going to be a good AE author.

I have a friend that would judge SCA arts and sciences entries. she would tell you exactly what she thought, and then direct you to people with the in depth knowledge of the subject that could help you. some people had a problem with this, but do you want smoke and lies or do you want to impriove your knowledge?

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5562 on: April 22, 2015, 09:37:53 PM »
the problem of promoting story arcs could have been solved by asking the devs for a forum space for people to post the names of their story arcs and a short teaser. sub topics could have discussed any number of ae story topics. those that were interested could get the names of what they wanted easily.

there was a whole section of the forums for that.

ivanhedgehog

  • New Efforts # 25,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5563 on: April 22, 2015, 10:39:31 PM »
there was a whole section of the forums for that.

and rather than use it people complained that their arcs were lost in the search list

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5564 on: April 22, 2015, 11:15:59 PM »
there was a whole section of the forums for that.

Friction.  If you want something to be used, you reduce the number of steps required to the bare minimum.  By saying people could make their own forum threads or blogs about AE arcs, rather than explicitly put such structure directly into the game where a player had direct access to it at the moment they were browsing the AE the devs were signalling - deliberately or not - that it wasn't worth anyone's time.  Whenever someone would say that something didn't need to be made any easier for players (in user interface terms, not game difficulty) because all that was required was X, Y, and Z, I would remind them that the methodology I used to decrypt the devs coded message contests could be expressed in exactly the same way.  For that matter, writing your own City of Heroes clone is just a matter of doing X, Y, and Z enough times in the right order.

Human user interface design was not one of Paragon's strong suits.  But to be honest, MMO game developers rarely excel at this.  Its almost as if there's a conscious decision to believe that since the game itself is supposed to be challenging, its ok if the interface to the game itself is also challenging.  And its one of the reasons I believe game development is still in its barest infancy even compared to software design in general.  There's a backwardness to it that isn't just accidental but almost embraced.

I've been playing Star Trek Online recently, and STO has had a very persistent bug that crops up under different circumstances where everything in your power tray would either reset or disappear, forcing you to put it all back.  There is a way to save that configuration, but its problematic and can itself sometimes mess up - its also tied to, in City of Heroes terms, saving your build, so imagine if occasionally your power trays would randomize themselves and using an old save of their configuration reslotted your entire character with whatever enhancements you had back when you last saved, emptying those slots if you no longer had that enhancement.  Yeah, its like that (a little more complicated than that because the differences between enhancement slots and devices in the two games affecting available abilities, but close).

For years, STO has had this bug.  For years, they haven't put in the basic capability to save the tray, and only the tray, like we had in CoH.  In any other field of software, this would be embarrassing to the literal point where it ought to drive at least one programmer to fix the bug on their own time, lest they be unable to show their faces in public.  In any other software field, this would be considered a show-stopper bug that was at the very top of the bug list, compelling programmers to do nothing else but fix it, or find a new career placement in the food service industry.  But in the MMO space, its not even particularly unusual in its severity.

To me, as a professional, that's dismaying.

Groundbreaker

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 38
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5565 on: April 23, 2015, 08:24:31 AM »
As a possible fix for AE how about take away rewards for defeating mobs and just stick to rewards for completing the mission. I don't think no rewards is specifically the answer but farming generally relies on increasing mob size to get greater rewards. Link the rewards to the mission and you make it much more appealing to farm in the "real world" (assuming you get the balance right and don't make it possible to rake in enough stuff from short speed run missions repeated)

One of the things I used AE for was to run plot for my friends. I really liked the idea that I could write my own content and have my friends play it without it impacting their progression in the game.
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing" - George Bernard Shaw

ukaserex

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 500
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5566 on: April 23, 2015, 11:51:22 AM »
Why fix what isn't broken?

If you wanted to run a farming mission, you could do that. If you wanted to run one of @PW's cute stories, you could do that, too. If you wanted to take the time and browse through the index and try something completely different, you could do that.

I do understand that some people had a problem with folks who would farm to the point that their characters were level 50, and a couple hours earlier they were level 1 or 4, or whatever - and then the people behind those farmed characters wouldn't be able to fully live up to the expectations of other players, average or elite. Like a tank with 4 travel powers and no shields/armor/auras. It just doesn't make sense to the average player.

Ultimately, so what?!

We all had our people we preferred to team with. Some loved the challenge of trying to make PUGs work. Some would only team with SG members. That was the best thing. You didn't have to spend any time around those people whose style or manner of play went against your idea of how it should be done.

So, leave AE alone. It worked just fine.
Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

Noyjitat

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • Guess who cares?
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5567 on: April 23, 2015, 04:05:33 PM »
Doesn't matter what game it is. You always have someone wanting something nerfed or removed because they want to police the way others play.

AlienOne

  • HumanZero
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 462
  • Resident Kheldian
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5568 on: April 23, 2015, 05:51:42 PM »
Doesn't matter what game it is. You always have someone wanting something nerfed or removed because they want to police the way others play.

Absolutely.

I never had a problem with the farmers. There are all kinds of people in the world, and they all serve a purpose. Sometimes it was nice to have someone around that could farm you up if you felt like leveling something up quickly because you had an idea for a build for a hero. I didn't farm much, but I did do it during the last year of CoH's existence--for many reasons. One, I did it for the challenge, because I didn't use the usual Fire/Kin build for farming. I used a Warshade. Let me tell you, it's a heck of a lot more difficult to farm as efficiently with a Warshade as one can with a Fire/Kin. Two, it helped my friends achieve their own build ideas fairly quickly. And deleting that build idea for a different one wasn't as big of a deal when it didn't take you weeks and weeks to get to the top level. Three, because it was a much easier way for my friends to all jump in at whatever times they could and play together. Sometimes doing a task force was more trouble scheduling-wise for the people I hung out with than it was worth. "Ok, let's do a Quartermaster this Saturday".... *Saturday comes* "I've gotta finish this thing with my family"... "I didn't know I had such-and-such going on, but I'll be on later"... "I have to run my kids to practice...." etc., etc. One of us (whoever was on) could just run a farm, and when everyone else logged on, they'd see who was on already, and just head in to an already in-progress farm--rather than one person waiting for an unspecified amount of time just to do one task force.

I had a couple of good friends who farmed because they actually got some comfort out of doing something mindless outside of their normal extremely high-stress real life situations. Some people like watching a mindless action movie for the same reasons. Not because they want to actually "destroy the game"... Because sometimes something like that was cathartic for them.

I never got why there were so many "nerf/remove the farmers!" threads back in the day.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 05:57:20 PM by AlienOne »
"What COH did was to show [developers of other] MMOs what they could be like if they gave up on controlling everything in the game, and just made it something great to play."  - Johnny Joy Bringer

JanessaVR

  • New Efforts # 12,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 815
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5569 on: April 23, 2015, 05:55:58 PM »
Sometimes it was nice to have someone around that could farm you up if you felt like leveling something up quickly because you had an idea for a build for a hero.
Exactly, as I've said before, I had a farmer friend on speed-dial for this as I paid him real-world money for this service (and loot that he earned by farming and marketeering).  It's nice to know that for $100 or so, your hot new L50 can be totally tricked out - by this afternoon.  That was nice.

Winter Fable

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5570 on: April 23, 2015, 06:05:30 PM »
I never had a problem with the farmers. There are all kinds of people in the world, and they all serve a purpose. Sometimes it was nice to have someone around that could farm you up if you felt like leveling something up quickly because you had an idea for a build for a hero. I didn't farm much, but I did do it during the last year of CoH's existence--for many reasons. One, I did it for the challenge, because I didn't use the usual Fire/Kin build for farming. I used a Warshade. Let me tell you, it's a heck of a lot more difficult to farm as efficiently with a Warshade as one can with a Fire/Kin. Two, it helped my friends achieve their own build ideas fairly quickly. And deleting that build idea for a different one wasn't as big of a deal when it didn't take you weeks and weeks to get to the top level. Three, because it was a much easier way for my friends to all jump in at whatever times they could and play together. Sometimes doing a task force was more trouble scheduling-wise for the people I hung out with than it was worth. "Ok, let's do a Quartermaster this Saturday".... *Saturday comes* "I've gotta finish this thing with my family"... "I didn't know I had such-and-such going on, but I'll be on later"... "I have to run my kids to practice...." etc., etc. One of us (whoever was on) could just run a farm, and when everyone else logged on, they'd see who was on already, and just head in to an already in-progress farm--rather than one person waiting for an unspecified amount of time just to do one task force.

I had a couple of good friends who farmed because they actually got some comfort out of doing something mindless outside of their normal extremely high-stress real life situations. Some people like watching a mindless action movie for the same reasons. Not because they want to actually "destroy the game"... Because sometimes something like that was cathartic for them.

 I never got why there were so many "nerf/remove the farmers!" threads back in the day.

 "Doesn't matter what game it is. You always have someone wanting something nerfed or removed because they want to police the way others play."


This^^^^^^We will need everyone back to keep the game going not just the people we like or agree with.




LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5571 on: April 23, 2015, 07:18:37 PM »
I never had a problem with the farmers. There are all kinds of people in the world, and they all serve a purpose. Sometimes it was nice to have someone around that could farm you up if you felt like leveling something up quickly because you had an idea for a build for a hero. I didn't farm much, but I did do it during the last year of CoH's existence--for many reasons. One, I did it for the challenge, because I didn't use the usual Fire/Kin build for farming. I used a Warshade. Let me tell you, it's a heck of a lot more difficult to farm as efficiently with a Warshade as one can with a Fire/Kin. Two, it helped my friends achieve their own build ideas fairly quickly. And deleting that build idea for a different one wasn't as big of a deal when it didn't take you weeks and weeks to get to the top level. Three, because it was a much easier way for my friends to all jump in at whatever times they could and play together. Sometimes doing a task force was more trouble scheduling-wise for the people I hung out with than it was worth. "Ok, let's do a Quartermaster this Saturday".... *Saturday comes* "I've gotta finish this thing with my family"... "I didn't know I had such-and-such going on, but I'll be on later"... "I have to run my kids to practice...." etc., etc. One of us (whoever was on) could just run a farm, and when everyone else logged on, they'd see who was on already, and just head in to an already in-progress farm--rather than one person waiting for an unspecified amount of time just to do one task force.

I had a couple of good friends who farmed because they actually got some comfort out of doing something mindless outside of their normal extremely high-stress real life situations. Some people like watching a mindless action movie for the same reasons. Not because they want to actually "destroy the game"... Because sometimes something like that was cathartic for them.

 I never got why there were so many "nerf/remove the farmers!" threads back in the day.

 "Doesn't matter what game it is. You always have someone wanting something nerfed or removed because they want to police the way others play."


This^^^^^^We will need everyone back to keep the game going not just the people we like or agree with.

The arguement against AE farmers has far more to do with inflation, not scrubdom or shfgdom(the types who police how others play).

The inflation rates caused by farmers can cause items to lose value to much, or in many cases devalue the currency excessively.  See your trying to get a ton of money in the short term when you farm for the game currency itself.  That was the core problem behind AE farms, you had gigantic amounts of influence entering the market but no where near as many items from it, even the ticket rewards couldn't keep up.

When prices were driven up to 100million for orange recipes and 500 million for purple recipes in far far less time than before AE when a purple recipe was only 50 million and the same orange recipe was 15-20 million you knew there was something going on.  To much currency generating from AE farms circulating in the game.  Especially since the other farms didn't produce such gigantic amounts of currency in comparison and tended to generate recipes very frequently.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5572 on: April 23, 2015, 07:24:56 PM »
I will say this, the reason the various types of merits were introduced was so that inflation wasn't such a game-killer for people.  If influence was truely the only form of currency in city of heroes, there would be no ladders of opportunity for newcomers other than getting lucky and luck would have been the be-all-end-all for how rich you were in city of heroes.  Merits in value scaled with influence, value wise, because they couldn't be traded and had fixed prices.

If you needed 500 million influence, you could start saving up hero/villain merits across 4-5 toons and buy 4-5 100m recipes with those merits.  If prices for those recipes had increased say 25% then those merits were 25% more valuable as you could simply sell those recipes at the increased cost.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Winter Fable

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5573 on: April 23, 2015, 08:51:29 PM »
Say what you will but without tickets in AE I would have never been able to IO my toons.Even with tickets I only did maybe 10 out of whatever the cap was on how many toons we could have.I played for almost 5 years.I didn't have luck with drops or run mish over and over.I'm glad they had tickets,with rolls and salvage no longer costing more than I would ever make over years I could at last see what a build was like I that I read about (or close to it) was like.I played with pugs and a small group so having  IO's build 1 and a SO's build 2 was nice.The IO builds could run almost by themselves but the second SO's build everyone in the team was needed.We were happy to have FF def and Emps or Def Debuffs but when only a few of us were on the IO builds let us finish whatever we ran in the time we had to play.

Taceus Jiwede

  • Time Traveler
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5574 on: April 23, 2015, 09:03:56 PM »
I will say this, the reason the various types of merits were introduced was so that inflation wasn't such a game-killer for people.  If influence was truely the only form of currency in city of heroes, there would be no ladders of opportunity for newcomers other than getting lucky and luck would have been the be-all-end-all for how rich you were in city of heroes.  Merits in value scaled with influence, value wise, because they couldn't be traded and had fixed prices.

If you needed 500 million influence, you could start saving up hero/villain merits across 4-5 toons and buy 4-5 100m recipes with those merits.  If prices for those recipes had increased say 25% then those merits were 25% more valuable as you could simply sell those recipes at the increased cost.

Yep.  Merit's were how I slotted all my characters.  They are how I made my fortune too.  LOTG where rather cheap in terms of merits.  And rather expensive in terms of influence.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5575 on: April 23, 2015, 09:18:49 PM »
I always wondered about that in CoX. Are certain zones supposed to be in a certain time line? Example Faultine, RWZ, IP. In Faultine, it's the start of Fusion and Jim super hero career and you also meet Penelope Yin. Then go RWZ, you see them further in the career, and in IP Yin replaces Sister Psyche for the TF. You can go to IP and see the present "Penelope Yin", but travel to Faultline and see her younger version. Just probably an oversight, but I always found that interesting even in your heroes progression, you are around lvl 15-25 for  Faultline zone where you meet Penelope Yin then in IP you meet her future self around 20-25, but for the Lady Grey TF at lvl 45-50, she is captured and is the younger version.

They started moving that way... of course, the big problem is that the traditional mechanics for an MMO don't really fit well with a narrative over time. Not only because people joining the game late want to be able to play through content, but also because if you drastically change a zone, older content won't work.

If I made an MMO, I would make every mission have a set time. So you can play the missions in any order you want, but if you want to know the actual story, you look at them sorted by date. So the Faultline missions would be dated 2008 (or whatever) and the IP mission would be dated 2010, say. And you could use phasing or multiple zone instances to put a character in the actual proper zone for their timeline.

there was an npc that could shut off speed boost for you.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Null_the_Gull

Unai Kemen  (jeez; it's May 2015 and I still remember the name of the contact?)

He has a unique name.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5576 on: April 24, 2015, 12:07:17 AM »
Say what you will but without tickets in AE I would have never been able to IO my toons.Even with tickets I only did maybe 10 out of whatever the cap was on how many toons we could have.I played for almost 5 years.I didn't have luck with drops or run mish over and over.I'm glad they had tickets,with rolls and salvage no longer costing more than I would ever make over years I could at last see what a build was like I that I read about (or close to it) was like.I played with pugs and a small group so having  IO's build 1 and a SO's build 2 was nice.The IO builds could run almost by themselves but the second SO's build everyone in the team was needed.We were happy to have FF def and Emps or Def Debuffs but when only a few of us were on the IO builds let us finish whatever we ran in the time we had to play.

But tickets were getting you the IOs directly, I was talking about the influence problems caused by AE due to all that influence.

Honestly if AE gave only tickets but no influence I think we'd have been better off when it came to the auction house.  Prices would have lowered significantly rather than rising to ludicrous levels because people got recipes from AE but not influence.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5577 on: April 24, 2015, 12:54:22 AM »
But tickets were getting you the IOs directly, I was talking about the influence problems caused by AE due to all that influence.

Honestly if AE gave only tickets but no influence I think we'd have been better off when it came to the auction house.  Prices would have lowered significantly rather than rising to ludicrous levels because people got recipes from AE but not influence.

I'd be ok with that. The influence i got from farming AE to get my salvage was laughably negligible compared to what i could make in a fraction of the time marketeering. I usually had the inf to buy the salvage, i just refused on principle to pay the amount rare salvage was going for when i could get it so easily in ae.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5578 on: April 24, 2015, 01:20:37 AM »
Why fix what isn't broken?

If you wanted to run a farming mission, you could do that. If you wanted to run one of @PW's cute stories, you could do that, too. If you wanted to take the time and browse through the index and try something completely different, you could do that.

I do understand that some people had a problem with folks who would farm to the point that their characters were level 50, and a couple hours earlier they were level 1 or 4, or whatever - and then the people behind those farmed characters wouldn't be able to fully live up to the expectations of other players, average or elite. Like a tank with 4 travel powers and no shields/armor/auras. It just doesn't make sense to the average player.

Ultimately, so what?!

We all had our people we preferred to team with. Some loved the challenge of trying to make PUGs work. Some would only team with SG members. That was the best thing. You didn't have to spend any time around those people whose style or manner of play went against your idea of how it should be done.

So, leave AE alone. It worked just fine.

Ultimately, you shouldn't fix what isn't broken.  But by only the lowest possible standards could you characterize the AE as "just fine."   While some people explicitly wanted certain conduct removed from the game, even discounting all of those remarks the AE was still broken in many ways by most objective standards.  While you *could* do a lot of things in theory, it didn't really do *any* of the things *anyone* wanted it to do very well at all.  If you wanted the freedom to do whatever you could dream up, and rewards didn't matter to you, you were still bound by the limits the devs placed on AE content explicitly because all content had to be curtailed based on the potential rewards the AE could generate.  If you *only* cared about rewards, you were *also* limited by the design of the system in many ways.  True, *some* of the people who played it for rewards found ways around those limitations, but they were only a small percentage of the whole.  And regardless of what you wanted to use the AE for, I would bet the vast majority of the playerbase was unable to find what they were looking for unless they got lucky.

As to farming itself, it should have been apparent that the devs didn't have strong feelings about farming in principle: if you look at the history of the game objectively the devs rarely took actions to curtail farming even when there were trivial ways to do so.  What they did care about was the largest excesses of the behavior, and they had every right to curtail extreme behavior that affected the game as a whole.  The devs *tried* to allow as much as possible, but there were lots of things that simply exceeded what the game itself could tolerate in the long run.  They often didn't have precision tools to address the worst case problems, so lots of things got caught in the net when they did take action.  But the notion that the devs were trying to "control" players with these actions is really not supported by the facts.

ivanhedgehog

  • New Efforts # 25,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5579 on: April 24, 2015, 01:53:37 AM »
But tickets were getting you the IOs directly, I was talking about the influence problems caused by AE due to all that influence.

Honestly if AE gave only tickets but no influence I think we'd have been better off when it came to the auction house.  Prices would have lowered significantly rather than rising to ludicrous levels because people got recipes from AE but not influence.

AE wasnt generating any more inf than the same time played doing other things. so it didnt really make a difference. Increasing the drop rates of purple in the real world would have encouraged people to spend more time in the rest of the game and dropped the prices at the same time. they were high because for many, purples just didnt drop. some people got them on a daily basis and others went months without a drop. if you cant reasonable expect a drop of what you need, you have to grind the cash to buy it. the merits gave people a doable way of getting good stuff. it was a step in the right direction.