Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749691 times)

Taceus Jiwede

  • Time Traveler
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3100 on: September 26, 2014, 09:02:30 PM »
Please bear in mind that FFM is simplifying for brevity. There was at least one psychic present that was trying to communicate with the whale at the time, most of the heroes were trying to minimise public risk...

And then one person showed up and killed the whole story in one fell swoop.

It was kind of a dick move.

I am not dis-agreeing that it was a bit of a dick move.  There is no reason for some one to ruin the fun of others just because its not their kind of fun.  However, you can't let a troll win so easily.  Have it either work in your favor, or re-write, or because it was CoH and based on comic books you have the best and my personal favorite excuse for re-writing stories.  Time travel and parallel dimension's.

FloatingFatMan

  • An Offal
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,178
  • Kheldian's Forever!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3101 on: September 26, 2014, 09:03:27 PM »
Does light the whole scene in a much more disturbing way, doesn't it? <shudder>

(I'm just going to assume that Rule 34 applies and move on...)

* FloatingFatMan tuts

Such dirty minds you lot, honestly!

FloatingFatMan

  • An Offal
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,178
  • Kheldian's Forever!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3102 on: September 26, 2014, 09:04:47 PM »
I am not dis-agreeing that it was a bit of a dick move.  There is no reason for some one to ruin the fun of others just because its not their kind of fun.  However, you can't let a troll win so easily.  Have it either work in your favor, or re-write, or because it was CoH and based on comic books you have the best and my personal favorite excuse for re-writing stories.  Time travel and parallel dimension's.

If it had been a troll, it would have been easy. It wasn't... It was actually someone who was a known RPer...  I won't name names though.  As Arcana said earlier though, he totally ruined the mood.

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3103 on: September 26, 2014, 09:23:38 PM »
I cannot count how many times the roleplaying mood was spoiled for me in game.  But I cannot count how many more times I found it was in CO.  And it's always someone whos especially and annoyingly biased in some way.  Most often in CO I found people like roleplaying magic characters as 100% invincible vs technology.  Not joking.  It was aggravating at best.  It could even be killed by the person who doesn't like characters more powerful than their own in some way or another or simply wants to have their own plots go full run-away.  I just cannot count how many times.

Honestly I stopped rping in CO 90% of the time because I felt the game didn't allow for any serious plots.  Even more-so when the game environment itself treats you like a mary sue, which encourages alot of people in CO to roleplay just that.  I remember one tool who's character was supposedly related to both Dr. Destroyer AND Viper..........yeah.....no sense...at...all.....
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3104 on: September 26, 2014, 09:32:05 PM »
* FloatingFatMan tuts

Such dirty minds you lot, honestly!

We're American. ;)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3105 on: September 26, 2014, 09:53:38 PM »
I think what a lot of people need to realize is that when some people refer to "problem," it's not as much of a negative connotation as you would think. I don't think he was referring to it as a problem as in "we need to eliminate it" as much as he was referring to it as a problem as in "it's not something we planned for and therefore might have had to come up with a solution with our systems to compensate for it."

To put it another way, they might have thought that everyone would have between 2 and 5 characters, and then everyone wound up making around 45 on average (just a guesstimation), so that became a "problem" to them in the sense that maybe it was something they had to adjust to--not "create a cure for."

Having more players than you've scaled your servers for is a problem; that doesn't mean any MMO developer would hate to have that problem.

The interactivity level between the players and the developers also created lots of other problems, and yet they continued to encourage it.  But there were lots of problems associated with it that were fairly unique to City of Heroes.  A common problem that surrounded that was that players would read far more into what was said than the devs actually meant, sometimes in ways difficult to predict ahead of time.  Case in point.  Then that misperception would sometimes dog the devs indefinitely.

When Matt wrote his article explaining the issues with the AE that required the devs take action to curb the worst abuses, there was a contingent of players that tried to characterize his article as "angry" and the devs response as "vengeful" on his part specifically.  This despite the fact that Positron displayed no anger in the post, and was not involved in the mechanics of the character freeze at all.  I tried repeatedly to explain -to  the best extent I felt was within my purview - precisely what happened there, but no one would listen.  But because of an operator error who was not involved in the nature of the character banning at all, conspiracy theories persisted almost certainly to this day.


Angel Phoenix77

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
  • I am Phoenix !!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3107 on: September 26, 2014, 10:01:06 PM »
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Pherdnut

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3108 on: September 26, 2014, 10:03:27 PM »
I don't know, but I did spend a lot of mental time trying to figure out what kinds of superpowers a half-man, half-seacow would have, so I could make the story of Subject O, an experiment in creating animal/human hybrids. He was going to be O--the Humanatee!

...please don't hurt me.

I like how the severity of awfulness is actually also lamented by the pun itself. If there was a medal of honor for puns. You just earned it.

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3109 on: September 26, 2014, 10:20:00 PM »
Having more players than you've scaled your servers for is a problem; that doesn't mean any MMO developer would hate to have that problem.

The interactivity level between the players and the developers also created lots of other problems, and yet they continued to encourage it.  But there were lots of problems associated with it that were fairly unique to City of Heroes.  A common problem that surrounded that was that players would read far more into what was said than the devs actually meant, sometimes in ways difficult to predict ahead of time.  Case in point.  Then that misperception would sometimes dog the devs indefinitely.

When Matt wrote his article explaining the issues with the AE that required the devs take action to curb the worst abuses, there was a contingent of players that tried to characterize his article as "angry" and the devs response as "vengeful" on his part specifically.  This despite the fact that Positron displayed no anger in the post, and was not involved in the mechanics of the character freeze at all.  I tried repeatedly to explain -to  the best extent I felt was within my purview - precisely what happened there, but no one would listen.  But because of an operator error who was not involved in the nature of the character banning at all, conspiracy theories persisted almost certainly to this day.

God moders(not refering to those who do so in roleplaying, but those who are over reliant on exploits to the point of being unable to do much without them) will always defend their exploits and viciously attack anyone who intends on fixing them.  So naturally these kinds of players are prone to going ballistic, and would have with the AE being fixed.  Here we had a tool that was introduced with the best intentions, to allow people to make their own content and show mmorpgs could move forward, and these douchbags came and ruined it, further setting mmorpg development backwards in a way.

Thing was if not for AE the concept would have never touched mmorpgs, which, is a genre that never gets anything new.  CoX had a lot of unique problems because it was extremely progressive as a game(not talking politics, talking in terms of moving forward in development).  It was a game that broke the trinity, it allowed for limitless numbers of tactics and was now allowing players to make their own content.  This was something that was unheard of, in mmorpgs.  Actual missions where people could fight enemies designed by players.

But MMORPG players, I blame them still, can be very narrow minded and short sighted like that.  They didn't know the intent, i'm positive they didn't.  These are players who only care about end game and max level because they never play other games that are more focused on a real gameplay experience.  They just wanna raid, raid some more, if not, they just wanna pvp, pvp some more, even though there were better games for that kind of instant gratification.  They just never get it because mmorpgs had stayed in the 1990s for so long that the mentality had developed to sabotage any concept other game genres had for decades and on top of that were successful with them.  Many mmorpg players are just far to narrow minded.  I'm sure alot instantly wanted to power level the instant they heard STO and NWO were introducing player mission editors.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

opprime2828

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3110 on: September 26, 2014, 10:21:13 PM »
I think that what Posi was saying is that single character investment is generally a more powerful motivator for people than "and now you do the same thing all over again, just with a different character!"

This will not always be the case. Some people love alting. But I would bet that for the majority (possibly even the vast majority) of people, being able to progress a single character, because there is always something to do on that character, is preferable.

Or, to put it another way, before Inventions, how many people had "finished" the game, and quit because they didn't want to alt? Same question before Incarnates. Even CoH's legendary retention figures could have been better.

I just strongly disagree, both with this and with Positron's position. His article very much smacks of a "my play style is really the right way to play" even in giving lip service to those who play differently.  He even identifies "good" and "bad" reasons to reroll, and I think his reasoning is entirely backward to my preferences. 
 
You can try and argue that he isn't saying it was really a "problem" in the way we typically use the word, but he also uses the phrases "it had become so rampant",  that it's "terrible that our focus gets split between two characters",  and that it's a "bad reason" if you're just wanting to see how that combination works.  When he adds in that "these are lessons other MMOs learned from and are subtly acting upon" and explains fixes like  preventing any real customization at character creation, it's clear he really DID see it as a "problem" and overall, a negative trait to have in an MMO.  And he makes it clear by talking about Rift's approach as a good model, which made him never want to roll an alt.

One of the things that makes many people like myself stop playing the other MMOs out there is the fact that alting really isn't useful/doesn't work.   TSW is the best City of Heroes replacement I've found, but really, once you've played through the entire game, there just isn't much to do but "raid" the same raids over and over.  And since you're doing so on the same toon, with the same powers, it gets entirely redundant.  Since that game does exactly what Positron was applauding, allowing your ONE character to fill any role, it means you don't even need to reroll to see the game from a healer's perspective, you just raid on the same character with a different build. And since people who are high end raiders tend to also be min/maxers you really end up with a bunch of carbon copy builds and never change anyway.   
 
I go back to TSW for about a week, every new moon when they release new content.  I run through it. Then I shelve it again.  That appears to be the case with most in the game, save for the few who stay around to do the end game raiding, which is, literally, the same six raids you've run the entire game.
 
City of Heroes, I ALWAYS had something to do, because players were always trying out new power combinations. Running content you'd run fifty times before, even raids, always felt a little different because your approach was based on your new character's mechanics and style.   The fact that these were ALSO much more personal since they had unique looks, etc. was only icing on the cake.
 
Most studies suggest that the average player blasts through new content in a matter of hours, not weeks.  It's simply not feasible to use "new content" as the draw to maintain a strong player base.  You have to choose between relying on:
-  end game raids for "gear" to keep them logging in, which appeals to a sizeable but limited type of player
-  a strong PVP based MMO, which appeals to a smaller pool of players (and the entire game must be built around to really work)
-  or a reason for players to keep replaying the older content, which is where alting comes in.
 
What CoH did right is focus on the last one, but not ignore the other two.
 
I submit that had City of Heroes NOT had the "problem" he describes, it would have closed down years before it did.  PvP was ALWAYS contentious in the game, and I think a super hero MMO focusing heavily on players fighting each other would be doomed to fail, since the player base likely to want to play a SuperMMO wants to feel heroic and super, and PvP tends to leave a great many players feeling neither.  Raids worked, but I know many players can't stand gear grinding, and this was actually one of the real complaints of the "End Game" Posi did introduce.  It was a raid grindfest, and like most MMOs it really was grinding for powers and gear that we didn't NEED for anything but those grinds.  They started to address that with the DA revamp and solo incarnate content.  The addition of new power sets, and then the ability to sidekick with your friends regardless of your character's levels is what kept the game feeling "fresh" for as long as it did. 
 
 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 10:56:53 PM by opprime2828 »

brothermutant

  • New Efforts # 14,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 309
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3111 on: September 26, 2014, 11:52:17 PM »
Speaking of excitement and planning for future toons . . .

Is there anywhere left with a Mid's version that doesn't have I24 changes baked into it ?

Or any way to turn off the I24 stuff in the last version of Mid's?

I never played around with the data portion of the builder and just went with each release's version.

Having just re-downloaded it [all of my CoH related stuff has gotten lost in the past 2 years, due to HDD

issues and bad timing to overwrite my backup drive.], I'm finding all the new pools and such rather distracting.
how do you get the i24 version? I just downloaded it a week ago and it only has the i23 stuff. I would actually like to build based on the i24 stuff just for giggles.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3112 on: September 27, 2014, 01:06:06 AM »
You can try and argue that he isn't saying it was really a "problem" in the way we typically use the word

He uses the word in exactly the same way I do: as something with detrimental effects that theoretically allows for a solution.

As a game designer, there are in fact good and bad reasons to reroll from a game design perspective, assuming as a game designer you have any sort of design goals whatsoever.  For example, if people are rerolling because they've lost interest in continuing to play the game with an alt, or feel the earlier parts of the game are more interesting, that suggests a failure for anyone who wants to make a game entertaining at every level.

There are of course people who think game designers aren't supposed to have any actual goals beyond serving whatever whims players demand, but the reason why no game contains that design ethic is that no one who believes it is capable of producing the effort required to make a functioning MMO.

For those that can't shift perspectives to that of the game designer or implementer rather than the player, I would recommend staying away from developer diaries.  Designers and implementers engineer things with intent and purpose.  You can get lucky and discover that they those things are even more useful in other contexts, but no good designer relies on luck or takes credit for luck.  When players find alternate uses for the things you design, you can acknowledge the fortune involved with that while also realizing it still represents a failing on your part when the original intent and purpose is discarded.  Its easy from the outside for players to believe that it should be solely up to them to decide how a game is played, but no designer who leaves their work up to chance will succeed in the long run.  Ultimately, they will fail miserably and edit themselves out of the genetic pool of the design community.

This ability to simultaneously understand the desires of the players and the fact that the game designers had to have their own design goals as well was something I tried to educate players on while the game was running, particularly when they came to me for advice in communicating their ideas to the devs.  Those who simply refused to acknowledge that the devs not only could but must have a purposeful intent to their work, those who thought that "vision" was a curse word, lets just say were consistently less successful at doing so than the rest.

Remaugen

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 457
  • Android Clan of One
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3113 on: September 27, 2014, 01:14:13 AM »
Is it possible to create a panda hero in Icon?

One of my friends on Champion had a toon called Pandamonium that looked pretty good.

I always really liked Zwill's modding. I just thought he was awesome.

Me too, he was a lot of fun!


All this talk of Pandas and Catgirls. On Champion I ran mostly Android Bunnies!

We're almost there!  ;D

The RNG hates me.

ryuplaneswalker

  • New Efforts # 17,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 190
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3114 on: September 27, 2014, 02:49:50 AM »
You people and your Furry things, it is a shame I lost my COH pictures when my harddrive died...else i would show you a true animal hero...


THE SEAGULL!

ivanhedgehog

  • New Efforts # 25,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3115 on: September 27, 2014, 03:19:48 AM »
You people and your Furry things, it is a shame I lost my COH pictures when my harddrive died...else i would show you a true animal hero...


THE SEAGULL!

none can stand up to Back Alley Broiler!!!!!

Excidia

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3116 on: September 27, 2014, 03:31:29 AM »
I am not dis-agreeing that it was a bit of a dick move.  There is no reason for some one to ruin the fun of others just because its not their kind of fun.

Sure there is:  Rule 43

You don't ever leave someone FOR dead.  You leave them DEAD.

tripthicket

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3117 on: September 27, 2014, 04:25:15 AM »
If it had been a troll, it would have been easy. It wasn't... It was actually someone who was a known RPer...  I won't name names though.  As Arcana said earlier though, he totally ruined the mood.

I bet I have a pretty good idea as to the answer, given what you've described so far, but what was this 'hero's' reaction to other RPers being upset, and your upbraiding him?

FloatingFatMan

  • An Offal
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,178
  • Kheldian's Forever!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3118 on: September 27, 2014, 07:44:05 AM »
I bet I have a pretty good idea as to the answer, given what you've described so far, but what was this 'hero's' reaction to other RPers being upset, and your upbraiding him?

It's been so long, about 5 years now! I just honestly can't remember!

AlienOne

  • HumanZero
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 462
  • Resident Kheldian
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3119 on: September 27, 2014, 08:23:15 AM »
He uses the word in exactly the same way I do: as something with detrimental effects that theoretically allows for a solution.

That's precisely what I was trying to say...

There are actually some of us out here in the world that see a "problem" as a delightful opportunity to innovate.

When we see a "problem" of, say, people creating tons of alts, we don't think "people who are creating tons of alts are the problem," we think "what is a viable solution to support this unintended (but welcome) phenomenon?"

There are different ways to figure out a solution to a problem, and the solution doesn't always mean there needs to be a fix for how people prefer to play. That was (I believe) the difference between Posi and Jack--one developer saw a problem as an opportunity to innovate, and the other developer saw people's personal play preferences as the problem.

In the end though, I think most developers are just happy that people are playing their game.
"What COH did was to show [developers of other] MMOs what they could be like if they gave up on controlling everything in the game, and just made it something great to play."  - Johnny Joy Bringer