Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749966 times)

BadWolf

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2880 on: September 23, 2014, 10:04:57 PM »
I don't know enough about these games or private servers in general, but It's my understand that no legal action was taken by the companies against the private servers. It was their choice to let it slide. I don't think that there is currently any precedent in actual law where a company has filed against a private server that was open for free. Which is what I meant by grey area.

It's a common misconception that there's some sort of legal protection granted by violating copyright for non-commercial purposes; in actual fact, this is entirely untrue. The law offers no protection at all in this situation; fanfiction featuring copyrighted characters are illegal, freely distributing a pirated game is illegal (even if the game is out of print), and copying or publicly exhibiting a film without permission of the rights holder is illegal as well. This is because companies have a hard time making money selling a product if someone else is giving it away for free. IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: This is in no way, shape or form the same thing as immoral. Please don't take this as a moral judgment on your fanfiction, because I'm cool with it. :)

However, most companies don't send out cease and desist orders on non-commercial copyright infringement, for two reasons. First, there's no money changing hands. If there's no money changing hands, it's not worth paying a lawyer real money to stop. (Note that this can change in a heartbeat, though. As soon as Fox licensed official "Jayne hats", hobbyists everywhere who were giving away free patterns for making your own got hit with C&D orders. Now that there was a financial incentive to get people to buy the hat instead of making it, the IP became valuable and copyright infringement was no longer tolerated.) NCSoft clearly has a basis for assuming there's value to the IP, though, so there's no reason to think they would turn a blind eye to exploitation of their IP even if it was non-commercial.

The second reason is that there's a cost to filing lawsuits against your own fanbase above and beyond paying the lawyers. If you sue anyone who writes fanfic, you're going to wind up with a fanbase that bears you considerable ill-will. Since their money pays your bills, it's worth your while to pick your battles carefully and only go after the egregious violators. In this instance, making a private server would probably be considered egregious, unless you assume like Baja that there are people making Sooper Seekrit Servers for their Sooper Speshul High School Cliques and those aren't on NCSoft's radar.

In general, never assume that you're safe from someone's lawyers just because you aren't making money. All that means is that if they do decide to go after you, you won't be able to afford a lawyer. :)

Baja

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2881 on: September 23, 2014, 10:07:00 PM »
Please ignore Baja - there are not any super-secret CoH private servers in existence, ranting conspiracy theories to the contrary.  If there were, there's no way it would have stayed a secret for 2 years and we'd be playing them.

Really? So if a group of twenty good friends you played coh with said "we have a private server you can play on, just don't tell anyone." You'd go around telling people most likely resulting in a shut down?

JanessaVR

  • New Efforts # 12,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 815
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2882 on: September 23, 2014, 10:10:43 PM »
Really? So if a group of twenty good friends you played coh with said "we have a private server you can play on, just don't tell anyone." You'd go around telling people most likely resulting in a shut down?
If you're so sure that these super-secret private CoH servers "exist and are most likely in high numbers," then provide the slightest shred of actual proof.

If there are that many of them of them out there, surely you can do that.  Talk is cheap - and so are crazy, rambling conspiracy theories.

Angel Phoenix77

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
  • I am Phoenix !!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2883 on: September 23, 2014, 10:16:16 PM »
If you're so sure that these super-secret private CoH servers "exist and are most likely in high numbers," then provide the slightest shred of actual proof.

If there are that many of them of them out there, surely you can do that.  Talk is cheap - and so are crazy, rambling conspiracy theories.
id also like too add to this by saying someone would have said something even if it was a secret. plus someone would have found a private server by now.
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Surelle

  • Guest
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2884 on: September 23, 2014, 10:17:10 PM »
It's a common misconception that there's some sort of legal protection granted by violating copyright for non-commercial purposes; in actual fact, this is entirely untrue. The law offers no protection at all in this situation; fanfiction featuring copyrighted characters are illegal, freely distributing a pirated game is illegal (even if the game is out of print), and copying or publicly exhibiting a film without permission of the rights holder is illegal as well. This is because companies have a hard time making money selling a product if someone else is giving it away for free. IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: This is in no way, shape or form the same thing as immoral. Please don't take this as a moral judgment on your fanfiction, because I'm cool with it. :)

However, most companies don't send out cease and desist orders on non-commercial copyright infringement, for two reasons. First, there's no money changing hands. If there's no money changing hands, it's not worth paying a lawyer real money to stop. (Note that this can change in a heartbeat, though. As soon as Fox licensed official "Jayne hats", hobbyists everywhere who were giving away free patterns for making your own got hit with C&D orders. Now that there was a financial incentive to get people to buy the hat instead of making it, the IP became valuable and copyright infringement was no longer tolerated.) NCSoft clearly has a basis for assuming there's value to the IP, though, so there's no reason to think they would turn a blind eye to exploitation of their IP even if it was non-commercial.

The second reason is that there's a cost to filing lawsuits against your own fanbase above and beyond paying the lawyers. If you sue anyone who writes fanfic, you're going to wind up with a fanbase that bears you considerable ill-will. Since their money pays your bills, it's worth your while to pick your battles carefully and only go after the egregious violators. In this instance, making a private server would probably be considered egregious, unless you assume like Baja that there are people making Sooper Seekrit Servers for their Sooper Speshul High School Cliques and those aren't on NCSoft's radar.

In general, never assume that you're safe from someone's lawyers just because you aren't making money. All that means is that if they do decide to go after you, you won't be able to afford a lawyer. :)

You know, I have been  wondering for a while now if Icon is legal or not, or if NCSoft knows about it or not (especially as rudimentary negotiations are underway to try and rez CoX).

JanessaVR

  • New Efforts # 12,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 815
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2885 on: September 23, 2014, 10:18:37 PM »
You know, I have been  wondering for a while now if Icon is legal or not, or if NCSoft knows about it or not (especially as rudimentary negotiations are underway to try and rez CoX).
Last I checked, Codewalker (and others here) had already looked into this when Titan Icon was first released, and I'm pretty sure we're in the clear with it.

Nyx Nought Nothing

  • New Efforts # 11,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
  • Ha!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2886 on: September 23, 2014, 10:20:16 PM »
I suspect that's because when they were first designing the sets, Dark Melee became the all punch set so MA became the (mostly) all kick set. 

Cobra Strike was awful.  It used to do Scale 0.25 damage (yep, that is in fact lower than Brawl: 0.36 scale) and 11.92 seconds of stun (at level 50: that scaled from 8 seconds at level 1), with recharge of 20 seconds and 1.67 seconds of cast time (it is literally burned into my memory).  Many MA took Cobra Strike because they thought it was a better power than it actually was (wishful thinking) and many because for a long time MA was so bad, Cobra Strike wasn't all that weird compared to the other options. 

MA was a beautiful looking set (at least to me) but it was originally a kind of awful that players who were not around at release cannot fathom.
One of my first characters had and enjoyed the Chun Li version of Storm Kick. In my defense it was my first week playing, i had never played an MMO before despite having friends who were into Evercrack, and i didn't really start reading the forums for another week or so. Nifty looking power. A pity the animation was never reused for anything else AFAIK.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

JanessaVR

  • New Efforts # 12,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 815
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2887 on: September 23, 2014, 10:21:08 PM »
id also like too add to this by saying someone would have said something even if it was a secret. plus someone would have found a private server by now.
Quite.  This crazy conspiracy theory suffers from the flaw they all have - that large groups of people can keep a secret - perfectly - for years on end without leaking even a hint of it.  Does anyone here (aside from Baja), really think this community could keep that secret for even 5 whole minutes?

Baja

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2888 on: September 23, 2014, 10:24:31 PM »
I see you didn't answer the question and instead became defensive to my -opinions-.

The high numbers things is very much a guess, considering many of the players were very talented with computer science among other things required to reverse engineer or even steal the source. Fact remains though several devs became personal friends with a group of players. If you followed the forums around shut down it became pretty well known the source was left untouched in Europe for several months after shut down, which gave ample time to distribute this to the right people.

But hey once again just my opinion, your disagreement is more than welcome.

brothermutant

  • New Efforts # 14,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 309
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2889 on: September 23, 2014, 10:25:11 PM »
Quite.  This crazy conspiracy theory suffers from the flaw they all have - that large groups of people can keep a secret - perfectly - for years on end without leaking even a hint of it.  Does anyone here (aside from Baja), really think this community could keep that secret for even 5 whole minutes?
Hellz no, I would be all "Look at what I just found!"

Baja

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2890 on: September 23, 2014, 10:26:43 PM »
Quite.  This crazy conspiracy theory suffers from the flaw they all have - that large groups of people can keep a secret - perfectly - for years on end without leaking even a hint of it.  Does anyone here (aside from Baja), really think this community could keep that secret for even 5 whole minutes?

I'm pretty sure if the Manhattan project existed, it's more than possible for a small group of people to keep a secret... Just sayin'

MM3squints

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2891 on: September 23, 2014, 10:32:16 PM »
Quite.  This crazy conspiracy theory suffers from the flaw they all have - that large groups of people can keep a secret - perfectly - for years on end without leaking even a hint of it.  Does anyone here (aside from Baja), really think this community could keep that secret for even 5 whole minutes?

Yes, tell them to do this

http://www.drawastickman.com/episode1?o=66-69-32-67-82-69-65-84-73-86-69s66-89-58-32-84-72-69-32-66-65-78-68-69-69

JanessaVR

  • New Efforts # 12,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 815
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2892 on: September 23, 2014, 10:32:27 PM »
I see you didn't answer the question and instead became defensive to my -opinions-.
Defensive?  More like I'm laughing as the idea is so ludicrous.  I just don't want any newbies here to get the wrong idea that these super-secret CoH private servers actually exist, as it's just mean to send people on a snipe hunt.

But to answer your question - yes, I'd be telling everyone!  If I had a copy of the CoH source code I wouldn't waste 2 seconds in uploading it to every file-sharing network on the planet and would be handing out free copies to every single person who wanted one.  And I would have that source code, in very short order, if it were any of my friends that were inviting me to some super-secret private server.

JanessaVR

  • New Efforts # 12,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 815
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2893 on: September 23, 2014, 10:35:07 PM »
I'm pretty sure if the Manhattan project existed, it's more than possible for a small group of people to keep a secret... Just sayin'
As an example of keeping secrets, you picked...the U.S. Government?  They leak like a sieve.

Angel Phoenix77

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
  • I am Phoenix !!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2894 on: September 23, 2014, 10:36:45 PM »
I'm pretty sure if the Manhattan project existed, it's more than possible for a small group of people to keep a secret... Just sayin'
that is public knowledge whereas someone going around saying there is a small group playing. This is  flawed because all of the old devs and most players know that the fans of this game wants to play. As for your last sentence this is flawed read the pervious sentence for the answer.
Also why would the old devs only allow a few players to play? I have read Ncsoft searched all of the devs to make sure they did not have a copy of the game.
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Nyx Nought Nothing

  • New Efforts # 11,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
  • Ha!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2895 on: September 23, 2014, 10:51:14 PM »
I see you didn't answer the question and instead became defensive to my -opinions-.

The high numbers things is very much a guess, considering many of the players were very talented with computer science among other things required to reverse engineer or even steal the source. Fact remains though several devs became personal friends with a group of players. If you followed the forums around shut down it became pretty well known the source was left untouched in Europe for several months after shut down, which gave ample time to distribute this to the right people.

But hey once again just my opinion, your disagreement is more than welcome.
I'm pretty sure if the Manhattan project existed, it's more than possible for a small group of people to keep a secret... Just sayin'
Manhattan Project was a top secret military project in wartime that employed a small number of people who actually knew what was being done with thousands of people actively working to screen it. Not nearly the same thing as your hypothesized high number of private servers for a game, servers that could be easily released and copied en masse if a single person of that high number uploaded it to a torrent. Within hours there would be hundreds of copies scattered across dozens of torrent networks.

Private servers only work if someone had access to the original source code and gave it to someone outside the company, which appears not to be the case. Not that there haven't been attempts at creating private servers, but without access to the server source code it's a herculean effort to create your own. You have to not only reverse engineer the protocols that the client uses to talk to the servers you also have to code all the systems that went into making the game work. The combat engine, critter AI, reward tables, XP tables, powers system, map servers, and everything else that made the game work. There was supposedly an unauthorized game server based on the server code from Issue 3 or so and by every account what actually existed was an unplayable, unstable mess that spent more time crashing than doing anything else.

Relatively few MMOs have unauthorized servers because few copies of server code ever make it into the wild, and if you think rewriting server code from scratch can be done easily or quickly without some combination of massive amounts of time and money you're obviously talking out the other end of your GI tract. Especially since one of the most effective ways to keep your own private servers up and running would be to scatter the code far and wide so that NCsoft would have no chance of ever putting the genie back in the bottle. At that point it becomes a waste of time and money to play whack-a-mole going after unauthorized servers for a game that's earning NCsoft nothing as is.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2896 on: September 23, 2014, 11:02:02 PM »
If there were a private server, I think Titan Network would have another sister-site! :p
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Baja

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2897 on: September 23, 2014, 11:08:26 PM »

Private servers only work if someone had access to the original source code and gave it to someone outside the company, which appears not to be the case. Not that there haven't been attempts at creating private servers...

Sooo it's possible, and has been attempted, but there's no way in all this time anything has been achieved...

Anyways though I'm gunna drop this as it seems to be a pretty touchy subject. Hopefully the guy who asked about private servers read the rest of my response and gets what I mean about the disagreement thing :P

BadWolf

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2898 on: September 23, 2014, 11:19:50 PM »
I see you didn't answer the question and instead became defensive to my -opinions-.

The high numbers things is very much a guess, considering many of the players were very talented with computer science among other things required to reverse engineer or even steal the source. Fact remains though several devs became personal friends with a group of players. If you followed the forums around shut down it became pretty well known the source was left untouched in Europe for several months after shut down, which gave ample time to distribute this to the right people.

But hey once again just my opinion, your disagreement is more than welcome.

But you're not stating an -opinion-. You're stating a (purported) fact. Opinions can't be proven or disproven, only agreed with or disagreed with, but facts are either true or false.

For example, if I went onto a Joss Whedon forum, and stated that "Firefly" sucked and that it was the worst series Whedon made, that would be an opinion. An unpopular one, but I could blow off fans by saying, "Just my opinion, your disagreement is more than welcome."

But if I went on there and stated that the show is still secretly in production, and that Joss Whedon only shows it to fans who he personally likes, and if you haven't seen any episodes it must mean that Joss Whedon hates you, that's a fact. And unless I can provide proof of that fact, people will state that it's untrue. The burden would be on me to prove I'm telling the truth, not on everyone else to prove I'm lying (which would, in this case, involve tying Joss Whedon to a chair and making him talk).

So basically, no, you don't really get to come on here and announce without any evidence that there are private servers. You need to provide proof or admit that it's just conjecture on your part. Because just calling something an opinion doesn't make it one.

opprime2828

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2899 on: September 23, 2014, 11:32:36 PM »
Damn straight, I've actively avoided moving anyone at our company to Win8 and certainly won't touch it at home.  Win7 is a nice next step up from XP, while Win8 is really just a mess.  Even Microsoft's own people call it "the new Vista" in-house.  They're tripping over themselves trying to get Win9 out the door, while laying a bunch of people off.  They really didn't get rid of Ballmer soon enough, though I'm not convinced the new guy is much better.

 
See, this is funny to me.  I'm running Windows 8 as we speak, and since day 1 I've found it to be superior in EVERY way.  There is, literally, NOTHING I can't do in Windows 8 that I could in 7, and do it faster. The instant on thing is amazing.  It boots almost instantly. Once you learn the shortcuts it becomes even BETTER, and since the 8.1 update, now you can avoid the tiled home screen altogether and boot right to the desktop, and they even returned the windows button functionality.
 
 
I think people who jump the Windows 8 hate bandwagon just made up their minds too soon whether it was good or not.  It's like someone switching from Apple to Windows or vice versa...it's different, so it just isn't as good. 
 
I know a lot of my high school students love Windows 8 once they start playing with it.  I mean, a lot of them. It takes them about 10 minutes to figure out how to actually maneuver in it, and from there on it's just superior to Windows 7.