Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749623 times)

adarict

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4860 on: February 05, 2015, 03:29:12 PM »
Don't dangle raw meat in front of badgers, is what I'm trying to say.

Of the many descriptions of badge hunters I have seen over the years, this one makes me laugh the most.  It is so very appropriate.  I can't believe I never connected badgers (the people who look for CoH badges) and badgers (the animal).  Thank you for that laugh this morning.

Triplash

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4861 on: February 05, 2015, 03:48:11 PM »
The thing about badges is, it's a collection system. It was created for people who enjoy a collection mindset and playstyle. And players who enjoy that will never be okay with having 99%. The entire *purpose* of a collection mini-game is that the player is working toward having 100% someday. They go into it knowing full well that the last few items will take patience and persistence; it's what they like about it. They enjoy pushing themselves to "cross the finish line", so to speak. Except when unique and time-limited items are thrown into the mix, they'll never cross that finish line, and they know it. Because there will be items they literally can *never* obtain. For most collectors the only thing that's going to do is foster negativity.

I say, if you want to have rewards that are time-limited or unique, just leave them out of the collection mini-game. For example, CoH lumped everything into badges under various categories - Achievements, Accomplishments, Events, and so on. If there had just been a section for these things where they weren't included in (or left out of) the character's badge count, I think there would have been a lot less resentment from the folks who didn't have them. The badges themselves would have been for things the *character* did (and those would all be things that could be done again at any time by any character, regardless of creation date), while a separate system would track what the *player* had done (things like log in on certain dates, attend events, or win contests).

I think that would be a much better way of handling things, without having to completely do away with unique and time-limited rewards. Because I mean hey, those are still cool for the people who can actually get them. I believe they're only received negatively when you put them on a checklist while knowing that the majority of people will never be able to check them off.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4862 on: February 05, 2015, 05:46:53 PM »
Of the many descriptions of badge hunters I have seen over the years, this one makes me laugh the most.  It is so very appropriate.  I can't believe I never connected badgers (the people who look for CoH badges) and badgers (the animal).  Thank you for that laugh this morning.

With some of the CoH badgers, it would be more appropriate to call them Honey Badgers! :p

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4863 on: February 05, 2015, 06:26:08 PM »
The thing about badges is, it's a collection system. It was created for people who enjoy a collection mindset and playstyle. And players who enjoy that will never be okay with having 99%. The entire *purpose* of a collection mini-game is that the player is working toward having 100% someday. They go into it knowing full well that the last few items will take patience and persistence; it's what they like about it. They enjoy pushing themselves to "cross the finish line", so to speak. Except when unique and time-limited items are thrown into the mix, they'll never cross that finish line, and they know it. Because there will be items they literally can *never* obtain. For most collectors the only thing that's going to do is foster negativity.

One of the things I tried to explain to the devs with I think not as much success as I would like is that there are primarily two kinds of players that care at all about badges: the casual player that just likes to see them when they happen to get them but won't necessarily expend a lot of effort in pursuit of them, and collector-minded players that "gotta get them all" and pursue badges explicitly hoping to complete the set.  Given that, its illogical from a game design perspective to create badges that are explicitly designed to be unlikely for players to ever acquire.  The casuals won't pursue them at all, and the collectors will try and fail to acquire them and become resentful.  The number of players both willing to pursue unlikely badges and yet not upset about ever not acquiring them would be relatively small compared to the other two groups.  I think the devs saw the badges as CoH's version of an achievement system (a badge type was actually called that) where its not normal for players to complain that every single player was unable to perform every single achievement.  Some achievements were genuinely constructed to be extremely difficult to accomplish and even unlikely for any but a few players to ever achieve.  That's fine.  But the CoH badges were not seen that way and once the community perspective was locked into badges as a collectable, and not a true achievement system, you couldn't simply change the way it was used.

If the devs added an achievement scoreboard completely separate from the badge system, and it was *just* a scoreboard with checkboxes for each one you achieved, and there was no badge icon or title associated with it, badgers would have almost certainly considered it separate from the badge collections they were assembling.  Other players might try to be completist with the achievement scoreboard itself, but that wouldn't have detracted from the badge collection.  But the devs decided to functionally overload the badge system as a) an accolade power unlock, b) a collectable system, and c) an achievement scoreboard.  But a significant functional community formed around (b) before the devs could set the right expectation (and honestly they never did properly try to set the right expectation from the start, when they might have had a chance).

P51mus

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4864 on: February 05, 2015, 08:38:35 PM »
If there had just been a section for these things where they weren't included in (or left out of) the character's badge count, I think there would have been a lot less resentment from the folks who didn't have them.

Sortof like how WoW has feats of strength that don't count towards achievement score?

Sinistar

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4865 on: February 05, 2015, 11:51:24 PM »
here's a question for you all:  What feature added to the game felt like a breath of fresh air that brought some new life to the game, or something that was long overdue?

For me:

1. Mission Architect: breath of fresh air
2. Praetoria: breath of fresh air
3. buffs such as Speed Boost and Force Field bubbles becoming AOE powers; LONG overdue
4. Null the Gull: LONG overdue.  I enjoyed visiting Null and shutting down group fly effect on all my characters and even speed boost on some as well.

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When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
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Vee

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4866 on: February 06, 2015, 01:20:49 AM »
here's a question for you all:  What feature added to the game felt like a breath of fresh air that brought some new life to the game, or something that was long overdue?


Stalker improvements and -kb IO in the long overdue department, enhancement converters in the fresh air department.

Pyromantic

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4867 on: February 06, 2015, 01:45:19 AM »
here's a question for you all:  What feature added to the game felt like a breath of fresh air that brought some new life to the game, or something that was long overdue?

Supersidekicking.  Teaming became sooooo much easier.

Ouro.  Not having to try and squeeze in particular badges while levelling was a definite plus.

RGladden

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4868 on: February 06, 2015, 02:14:30 AM »
Nate?  You out there?  Drop us a bone of some kind...ok?  I'm 61 years old and I ain't gettin' any younger.  My longing for the game is like a physical hunger.

Tanks!

And Brutes!

pinballdave

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4869 on: February 06, 2015, 02:47:25 AM »
I could see a badge:

Lvl 50 in 50 day/hours/minutes..

If it were up to me, the badge for the first to hit 50 would be "Premature Ejaculation". Now how does THAT feel ;) ?

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4870 on: February 06, 2015, 04:47:15 AM »
here's a question for you all:  What feature added to the game felt like a breath of fresh air that brought some new life to the game, or something that was long overdue?

For me it was the invention system in Issue 9.  It wasn't perfect by any means, but in one stroke the basic economy created by the invention system (and the markets that were coupled to it) realized the promise of any player being able to play the game without compromising concept (by opening the door to levels of enhancement that would make standard content playable with literally any build without significant monetary or time-grinding investment) and opened the door for the players to create their own meta-gaming end game by opening the door to ludicrous (relatively speaking) levels of build power that allowed players to set fantastic gaming goals as their own end game achievements (i.e. the Scrapper Challenges, higher-order task force soloing, AV/GM soloing with more options than the classic AV builds).

It wasn't just the gameplay and quantitative changes, I believe a case can be made that the post-I9 game was fundamentally different on not just a technical level but also on a player-community level.  We saw and played the game differently after Issue 9, and we even interacted with each other differently after I9.  The invention system helped, I believe, promote the "there's no wrong way to play" philosophy that was just one of many in the early days, and became the prevalent religion of CoH in the years after Issue 9.  I could say the invention system, rather than being the scourge that some thought it might become before it launched, actually became a strong positive influence that doesn't often get the credit it deserves.

Sinistar

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4871 on: February 06, 2015, 05:14:30 AM »
For me it was the invention system in Issue 9.  It wasn't perfect by any means, but in one stroke the basic economy created by the invention system (and the markets that were coupled to it) realized the promise of any player being able to play the game without compromising concept (by opening the door to levels of enhancement that would make standard content playable with literally any build without significant monetary or time-grinding investment) and opened the door for the players to create their own meta-gaming end game by opening the door to ludicrous (relatively speaking) levels of build power that allowed players to set fantastic gaming goals as their own end game achievements (i.e. the Scrapper Challenges, higher-order task force soloing, AV/GM soloing with more options than the classic AV builds).

It wasn't just the gameplay and quantitative changes, I believe a case can be made that the post-I9 game was fundamentally different on not just a technical level but also on a player-community level.  We saw and played the game differently after Issue 9, and we even interacted with each other differently after I9.  The invention system helped, I believe, promote the "there's no wrong way to play" philosophy that was just one of many in the early days, and became the prevalent religion of CoH in the years after Issue 9.  I could say the invention system, rather than being the scourge that some thought it might become before it launched, actually became a strong positive influence that doesn't often get the credit it deserves.

Yeah the invention system should have received more credit from the players.  after all it did help offset the diversification that Jack was so fond of...

Now the Market.....leaving the price cap at 2 billion inf I was never fond of. I really didn't think there was any IO that was worth 2 billion, not even the +3defense PVP io.  Sure I understand, more defense is great, but for 2 billion inf?  No.   

Price capping and the occasional market seeding would have been nice.
In fearful COH-less days
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With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

Aggelakis

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4872 on: February 06, 2015, 05:38:02 AM »
Yeah the invention system should have received more credit from the players.  after all it did help offset the diversification that Jack was so fond of...

Now the Market.....leaving the price cap at 2 billion inf I was never fond of. I really didn't think there was any IO that was worth 2 billion, not even the +3defense PVP io.  Sure I understand, more defense is great, but for 2 billion inf?  No.   

Price capping and the occasional market seeding would have been nice.
Price capping as in forcing an IO to not go for more than X amount? Not possible. If they can't sell on-market for what they think it's worth, people will just trade off-market. It's just how people work.
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Drauger9

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4873 on: February 06, 2015, 05:47:06 AM »
here's a question for you all:  What feature added to the game felt like a breath of fresh air that brought some new life to the game, or something that was long overdue?

Breath of fresh air:
1. Incarnate trials (though I didn't play them much) the introduction to them. Where you walk into Ouro and every bad guy is there attack. Then you just walk past them like their nothing. That got me so excited to see what the game would be like after incarnates.

2. Side switching, I liked villain ATs and I like the villain zones but not many people played villain side. So being able to take my villain ATs over to heroe side opened up a whole new game to me really.

Long overdue:

1. Making buffs AOE, especially for MMs. Giving all your pets their two upgrades one by one. Plus buffing them if your secondary had buffs would kill your endurance.

2. Breaking up some of the TFs into small pieces. Most TFs I did, I usually soloed. I even made characters for the sole purpose of soloing TFs.

3. Enhancement converters, I farmed for my purples. Before Enhancement converters if I got a purple drop I didn't need for the build I was currently working on. I'd sale it for the influence to buy the purple I needed. In the case of Brutes, that usually meant selling the confuse purple or the sleep purple. Which didn't sale for much at all. So using the Enhancement converters, I had a chance to get the purple I needed instead of selling the low end purple and buying the high end purple. I rarely got the hold purples...

4. The KD IO, that opened up some power sets for most people. Who didn't want to play storm, elec blasters ect.. because of the KB. I never got around to getting a KD IO but I still played my demon/storm MM solo or just didn't use certain powers in a group setting.



LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4874 on: February 06, 2015, 07:05:14 AM »
Much of what Drauger9 said, though I played the incarnate trials alot.  But the various buffs made AoE was perhaps one of the best things done for the game.
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Codewalker

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4875 on: February 06, 2015, 02:49:10 PM »
Now the Market.....leaving the price cap at 2 billion inf I was never fond of. I really didn't think there was any IO that was worth 2 billion, not even the +3defense PVP io.  Sure I understand, more defense is great, but for 2 billion inf?  No.

Things are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them. In the case of the PVP +3% defense global, they were worth more than 2 billion to quite a few people; that's why they mostly were sold off market. Sure there were a ton of 2B bids on them and someone who got one without knowing better would occasionally post one and it would sell for 2B, but that wasn't a reliable way to get one unless you were very patient due to all the outstanding bids.

Settings price caps on a player makert is pointless and does nothing but discourage use of that market. Seeding it is equally counter-productive as it makes it harder to sell anything and also discourages people from listing items they don't need. If you were going to do that, you might as well just move everything to NPC vendors and remove the market entirely.

ArchPilgrim

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4876 on: February 06, 2015, 02:56:31 PM »
Nate?  You out there?  Drop us a bone of some kind...ok?  I'm 61 years old and I ain't gettin' any younger.  My longing for the game is like a physical hunger.

I'd like to echo this sentiment, except I'm 65 and get irritated easily.  What's the holdup?  Yeah, I've read every post in the two main threads, and it's going nowhere.  The delay is BS, IMO.  Someone on our end is getting jacked around.  Who we dealing with here?  They got some IP they don't want, and we've got some cash, capable and willing devs, and a rabid fan base!  What's wrong with this picture?  Sheesh.

In any event, the game changer for me was Inventions.  And SG Base design.

Fav Toons:  Fire/Ice Blaster, Grav/Emp Controller, and Dual Blade/Willpower Brute.

Biggest Frustration: Could never get that Rikti Mothership Badge.  Poobah.

That's it.  Back to lurking, mostly.
Why am I doomed to love that which is gone... Roswell, Jericho, Firefly, and City of Heroes?

duane

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4877 on: February 06, 2015, 03:21:45 PM »
I'd like to echo this sentiment, except I'm 65 and get irritated easily.  What's the holdup?  Yeah, I've read every post in the two main threads, and it's going nowhere.  The delay is BS, IMO.  Someone on our end is getting jacked around.  Who we dealing with here?  They got some IP they don't want, and we've got some cash, capable and willing devs, and a rabid fan base!  What's wrong with this picture?  Sheesh.

In any event, the game changer for me was Inventions.  And SG Base design.

Fav Toons:  Fire/Ice Blaster, Grav/Emp Controller, and Dual Blade/Willpower Brute.

Biggest Frustration: Could never get that Rikti Mothership Badge.  Poobah.

That's it.  Back to lurking, mostly.

Patience is a lifelong goal. I am in the same boat as you guys, but we just have to have faith the people with their necks on the line are working.   I am ready to wait for solid news, good or bad.  No amount of demanding will change that.  nda or otherwise. 

RGladden

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4878 on: February 06, 2015, 03:53:23 PM »
Patience is a lifelong goal. I am in the same boat as you guys, but we just have to have faith the people with their necks on the line are working.   I am ready to wait for solid news, good or bad.  No amount of demanding will change that.  nda or otherwise.

Two buzzards were sitting in a tree having a conversation.  Saith one to the other..."Patience my ass!  I'm gonna go KILL something!"   :)

The Invention system probably had the most profound impact on the game, tier 1-50.  The bonuses awarded by enhancement sets within that system could make a character well-nigh unkillable by the time they hit tier 40.   And the Incarnate System was just a variation on that theme.

hurple

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4879 on: February 06, 2015, 03:59:52 PM »

1. Mission Architect: breath of fresh air
2. Praetoria: breath of fresh air
3. buffs such as Speed Boost and Force Field bubbles becoming AOE powers; LONG overdue
4. Null the Gull: LONG overdue.  I enjoyed visiting Null and shutting down group fly effect on all my characters and even speed boost on some as well.

All of those were nice, but...

1.  I had great fun building a fantastic storyline around the origin of my Supergroup with custom villains and cameos by my favorite toons.  It was deep, and meaningful and led to a climax that actually served a purpose, the formation of a SUPERGROUP!  I worked on it and tweaked t for nearly a year before unleashing it on the population... who promptly ignored it in favor of the latest *fast XP* shoot-em-up.  Oh well, I enjoyed running my own guys through it, but it did kinda suck away all my excitement for the Architect .

2. Praetoia was GREAT FUN the first 3 or 4 times I played through it.  Then, it just became annoying.  If they had added more content after lvl 20 instead of forcing you to travel to Paragon... And added portals so you could travel between Praetoria and Paragon at will...

For me the main improvement was IO enhancements.  I loved playing with those, and was still toying with different mixes and possibilities on the last day. 

Another was the change in Faultline.  That quickly became my favorite zone after it opened.  I used to test my level 20 builds by running them solo through that last story arc.  If they couldn't solo that arc, I'd respec them until they could. (and I had another story arc that was a build-test at level 40.. but i forget what it was now.  At 50, I tested my builds with the incarnate intro arc)

 Ouroboros was also a huge improvement.  Loved being able to go back and replay missed content.  Plus all the other goodies...