Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1747459 times)

Pyromantic

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3240 on: September 30, 2014, 02:36:14 PM »
I've been thinking about that article as well.  One thing I think is indisputable: it focuses on the negative aspects of creating alts.  Does that mean that Positron's opinion is that alts are a bad thing overall?  Not necessarily. 

Part of the article pushes me to thinking he has a positive view of alts in general.  He states it can be fun for a lot of people, to the point of being the game, and that population is an important reason why City of Heroes survived as long as it did.  I would infer, now, that it is also an important reason why the game may continue to survive in a second life.

It's a little unclear what his opinion is of the resulting lack of a main.  If I had a main in CoH it was my Kat/WP scrapper, which is the first character I used to do any serious badge-hunting, PvP, and to really play much beyond 50, as well as the character that had the most playtime by a significant margin.  But it was also a character I made after I'd played the game for some time, and so I suppose I played the game for years without a main in that sense.  He does, however, explain that other games have "learned" these lessons and are designed to discourage alting to the extent it happened in CoH.  So whether or not Miller's opinion is that there was too much alting in CoH, he is acknowledging that view in the MMO industry.

I'm unsure of his opinion of the RIFT model and the resulting lack of any need to have alts (from what I understand; I've only tried the game very briefly.)  The thing is, I hate that model, but I had to think about why.  When I think of a character's capabilities, that collection of game attributes is inextricably linked to a sense of that character's identity.  If I envision a story for a character then what that character is able to do is integral.  That isn't to say I'm the world's biggest RP'er; indeed not all of my CoH characters had a fleshed-out backstory, but I still had a sense that, for example, my Sonic/Ice blaster's identity is linked to those powersets.  There is a middle ground here of course; my CoH characters didn't have access at level 1 to all the powers they would eventually have, but the progression didn't break any sense of identity.  Genre is also very important.  The superhero genre is perhaps the least forgiving in terms of allowing dramatic capability shifts without a good in-story reason; we expect the general direction of a character's capabilities to be largely "baked-in" with his/her/its origin story.  When a game allows too much freedom to have a character become all things that sense of identity is eroded for me.  If I want to go in a significantly different mechanical direction then I want to develop a new identity for that direction, and watch that identity develop from a "fresh" beginning.

City of Heroes really did embrace that.  Even within an AT you had a huge number of options.  While a lot of games would be fine with a "controller" with perhaps two or three significantly different options, City had dozens.  That ability to stay within a general playstyle I liked and still make a ton of new characters was a huge part of the game's longevity for me.  Whether or not that's "correct," that's the way it was.

Phaerius

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3241 on: September 30, 2014, 02:36:52 PM »
I'd rather install a thousand power supplies than one mobo, lol.

I agree with this. I've installed at least eight power supplies at this point, and I've never touched a mobo or processor install. PSU's are really easy if the cording is wrapped up nice and tight and you write down the correct plugs in the correct color co-ordination for everything you need to plug in. That way you don't forget one or try to shove it in backwards. :P

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3242 on: September 30, 2014, 03:34:57 PM »
I don't even consider those players rpg players because of that.  They have gotten into their heads that end game and more "power" and more "power" is the be all end all.  Honestly, when I think about that, this makes me think less of these kinds of players.  Because while I didn't mind incarnate content for example, I also enjoyed leveling up and seeing how other things played.  These kinds of players?  Power is the be-all-end-all and the amount of it is the be-all-end-all.  They'd make horrible story writers, though i'm sure that'd be ok for a typical anime(bad one, not good one).

But the thing is, as a game designer you don't have the luxury of saying, "Your way of having fun isn't as good as my way of having fun." (Despite a previous lead developer for CoH thinking exactly that...) It's Positron's job to accommodate as many playstyles, as many goals, and as many players as he can so long as they're not mutually exclusive and so long as he has the resources to do so. Incarnate content was for the people who saw starting over at level 1 as a waste of time and effort, and wanted to continue making their main character more powerful. That may not be something you saw as useful, and maybe you even think less of people who have that as a goal. (I'm sure they feel the same way about you.) But it doesn't hurt anyone to give them what they want, and it's not like we weren't getting more new powersets to try right up until the end. (Nature Affinity and Beast Mastery, for example, were really cool and innovative.) I'm really just saying that Positron was right to recognize that the game didn't include a lot of people, and to expand it to include those people. As someone who despises being railroaded into a certain playstyle, I'd think you would support that. :)

kiario

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3243 on: September 30, 2014, 04:05:07 PM »
Hello,

Checking in, has there been any progress in September?

Thanks  :)

MM3squints

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3244 on: September 30, 2014, 04:06:22 PM »
Hello,

Checking in, has there been any progress in September?

Thanks  :)

There has been talks of pancake but that's about it.

Felderburg

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3245 on: September 30, 2014, 04:36:19 PM »
I think that what Posi was saying is that single character investment is generally a more powerful motivator for people than "and now you do the same thing all over again, just with a different character!"

Which may be true, but with the amount of content in CoH, very rarely was starting from Level 1 "the same thing all over".

For those that can't shift perspectives to that of the game designer or implementer rather than the player, I would recommend staying away from developer diaries.  Designers and implementers engineer things with intent and purpose.  You can get lucky and discover that they those things are even more useful in other contexts, but no good designer relies on luck or takes credit for luck.  When players find alternate uses for the things you design, you can acknowledge the fortune involved with that while also realizing it still represents a failing on your part when the original intent and purpose is discarded.  Its easy from the outside for players to believe that it should be solely up to them to decide how a game is played, but no designer who leaves their work up to chance will succeed in the long run.  Ultimately, they will fail miserably and edit themselves out of the genetic pool of the design community.

This ability to simultaneously understand the desires of the players and the fact that the game designers had to have their own design goals as well was something I tried to educate players on while the game was running, particularly when they came to me for advice in communicating their ideas to the devs.  Those who simply refused to acknowledge that the devs not only could but must have a purposeful intent to their work, those who thought that "vision" was a curse word, lets just say were consistently less successful at doing so than the rest.

I guess the issue for me is that Positron's "vision" ended up being something that I perceived as "let's put in grindy end game raids like every other game!". I can appreciate that he has a vision and that it's important to have one, but if I don't like the vision, I'm not sure where that leaves me.
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darkgob

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3246 on: September 30, 2014, 04:56:08 PM »
Hello,

Checking in, has there been any progress in September?

Thanks  :)
Trust me, you won't have to ask when there's more news.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3247 on: September 30, 2014, 05:15:15 PM »
But the thing is, as a game designer you don't have the luxury of saying, "Your way of having fun isn't as good as my way of having fun." (Despite a previous lead developer for CoH thinking exactly that...) It's Positron's job to accommodate as many playstyles, as many goals, and as many players as he can so long as they're not mutually exclusive and so long as he has the resources to do so. Incarnate content was for the people who saw starting over at level 1 as a waste of time and effort, and wanted to continue making their main character more powerful. That may not be something you saw as useful, and maybe you even think less of people who have that as a goal. (I'm sure they feel the same way about you.) But it doesn't hurt anyone to give them what they want, and it's not like we weren't getting more new powersets to try right up until the end. (Nature Affinity and Beast Mastery, for example, were really cool and innovative.) I'm really just saying that Positron was right to recognize that the game didn't include a lot of people, and to expand it to include those people. As someone who despises being railroaded into a certain playstyle, I'd think you would support that. :)

You also have the publisher to worry about though, to. 

I, however,  agree with you here fully, and I had nothing against the incarnate trials(I already said a good number of times I actually participated in them myself).  As I said I was especially focused on those few who either left to early or wanted a WoW clone.  To me the incarnate trials just added more customization options at the high level, which was fine.  I didn't see it as an increase to the level cap(it wasn't, anyone who said it was didn't realize your health didn't increase, and even your base damage did not increase, just your attacks gained the damage bonus as if you were fighting enemies a level lower than normal, just as they got the -1 penalty for attacks on ya if they were -1).  In fact i'd say I only found a small % of people participating in the trials even that were total "stop having fun guys".  And alot of people participating, most of them if not a large majority actually had alts and even brought alts in.

City of heroes, was in a state where it was actually improving I felt in the later months, said that many times.  It didn't take an excessive amount of grinding to get a character to the +3 incarnate shift in the incarnate trials though.  It wasn't like say, what destiny did on release(and why so many reviewers are unhappy about that game).  It was such you could actually make progress at a solid pace.  In a way the only players the incarnate trials rubbed the bad way were those who believed they'd never get a purple drop and those who hated end-game grinding.  I can agree with them as much as I can agree with your points.
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Harpospoke

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3248 on: September 30, 2014, 06:04:28 PM »
But by the same token, "grinding" is exactly what a lot of players look for. It is not a coincidence that the most successful MMO in the history of the world is one that explicitly encourages you to reach the level cap quickly and then spend weeks and months and years working at tiny, incremental improvements to the efficacy of your character. :) It is something that a lot of players look for, and I have first-hand experience of trying to convince people to come from EQ or WoW during the pre-Incarnate days only to be asked, "But what do you do once you hit 50?" Quite literally, they had already mentally skipped the entire leveling process in their heads as inconsequential and wanted to know what the next step was. And when told that you started over again at 1 with a different character, they lost interest in even trying the game.

I understand that everyone here has a hard time wrapping their heads around that, myself included. But we are a self-selected audience of people who wanted what CoH was selling. The larger world of "MMO players" wanted endgame content, and Positron recognized that and gave it to them. I don't think he was mistaken, either in recognizing that deficiency in the game or in working to fix it. If anything, I think he was about twenty issues too late.
I really like this post.

It might be more honest to say that players who prefer the WoW style of play aren't "dumb", "wrong", or "don't like having fun".    They just have fun a different way than CoH players do.

It could just be that we, as a group, are a bit of an outlier in the gaming world.   When we are all together talking about gaming, we of course feel that people who like other types of games are somehow doing it wrong...but they say the same about us.  "Fun" is subjective.

Which is a great way of illustrating why CoH needs to exist.   We might be a small group, but we exist and other games don't do "it" for us.   I've tried other games and nothing else works for me.   I'm only a "gamer" when CoH exists.   Otherwise I don't play games.   There is a real place in this world for the unique thing that is CoH.

Like others said, I'm a bit of a mix.   I had a bunch of "mains".   16 lvl 50s...all of which I played over the course of a month. (some more than others)   I would say I spent 70-80% of my time playing them.   So I had some "WoW" attitude there.   When I leveled a new character, my mind was always on the "finish line".   I didn't really like not having all my powers.   But there was that part of me that did love trying new powersets so I had the "alting" bug too....just not as much as some others.   I still get the itch to try some new combinations.   I mean...Ice/Storm isn't the same as Ill/Storm!

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3249 on: September 30, 2014, 06:56:31 PM »
There has been talks of pancake but that's about it.

now im hungry again damn you to heck!!!

microc

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3250 on: September 30, 2014, 07:15:23 PM »

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3251 on: September 30, 2014, 07:53:09 PM »

I'm unsure of his opinion of the RIFT model and the resulting lack of any need to have alts (from what I understand; I've only tried the game very briefly.)  The thing is, I hate that model, but I had to think about why.  When I think of a character's capabilities, that collection of game attributes is inextricably linked to a sense of that character's identity.  If I envision a story for a character then what that character is able to do is integral.  That isn't to say I'm the world's biggest RP'er; indeed not all of my CoH characters had a fleshed-out backstory, but I still had a sense that, for example, my Sonic/Ice blaster's identity is linked to those powersets.  There is a middle ground here of course; my CoH characters didn't have access at level 1 to all the powers they would eventually have, but the progression didn't break any sense of identity.  Genre is also very important.  The superhero genre is perhaps the least forgiving in terms of allowing dramatic capability shifts without a good in-story reason; we expect the general direction of a character's capabilities to be largely "baked-in" with his/her/its origin story.  When a game allows too much freedom to have a character become all things that sense of identity is eroded for me.  If I want to go in a significantly different mechanical direction then I want to develop a new identity for that direction, and watch that identity develop from a "fresh" beginning.


Could you fill me in on how Rift's character progression worked?  You describe it like the character starts at the top or something(which would mean a sore lack of character development is allowed).
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Zychan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3252 on: September 30, 2014, 07:56:40 PM »
I'm, a little late to the party here, but I wanted to also thank the individuals who have worked so hard on this project.  I had thought (and lamented) that the dream had died, but lo and behold the work goes on!  As many others have noted, if there is anything that the community can do to help, I will happily offer whatever assistance I can! ;D

I played CoX for many years and thoroughly loved it.  It was originally offered as a birthday gift to my wife from a longtime player (inception to closing) and once I "tried" it, I became absolutely engrossed.  I was often a forum lurker and rarely a poster, but I always followed the community up until the shut down.  I have told many people that City was different than anything else that I have experienced and that the difference proliferated all the way down to (perhaps up from?) the community.

In a world of internet hate and elitism, it was (and still is it seems) a relief to find an online community that, more often than not, lifted each other up instead of tearing each other down.  So many times I went to the forums with build questions only to see that someone else had the same ideas I had and that they were addressed constructively and productively.

I look here today and see that the same spirit is still active.  Just a few pages back were a couple people (I didn't quote them because I didn't realize my post was going to ramble in this direction!  :roll:) offering free PC build advice and even offering to do live Skypes to help out fellow community members.  That kind of gesture is wonderful and what always seemed to set the community apart!  And when conflict would occur (as earlier in this thread), it was usually resolved by people calming down and explaining that no offense was intended and rationally setting everything on course.

These are the people that I always enjoyed playing with and I truly hope to fly the skies of Paragon with you again soon!

Zychan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3253 on: September 30, 2014, 07:58:26 PM »
Here is the website I was referencing to earlier

http://pcpartpicker.com/parts/partlist/

This is the computer I'm going to make xD

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/j2dcBm

Thank you for this!  That is indeed a very handy website and I have it bookmarked.  Good luck with your build and the Cyber Monday sales!    ;D

MM3squints

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3254 on: September 30, 2014, 08:05:06 PM »
Thank you for this!  That is indeed a very handy website and I have it bookmarked.  Good luck with your build and the Cyber Monday sales!    ;D

Thanks :P Hopefully I can knock off 500 dollars (which essentially is a free 980 GTX) Here's hoping xD

Illusionss

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3255 on: September 30, 2014, 08:15:58 PM »
Quote
The fact remains though, that CoX was/is the single most Alt friendly and Altitis encouraging MMO ever made.  Heck, the sheer number of possible powerset combinations practically screams for making multiple characters.

The joy of playing multiple characters who each had different playstyles and weaknesses was one of the main reasons CoX lasted as long as it did. That wasn't a negative factor, it helped keep the game alive.

My domicile was without internet access for a week, so during that time I did a lot of fooling around in ICON. It was a lot of fun and also made me so homesick that at one point, tears came to my eyes. I try to remind myself that no news is good news, in a way, but I still want this game back to a degree that is almost frightening to me.

I log onto CO every now and then, but that game is so boring. It really truly is. Esp. when you don't know anyone. Thank God for the CoH channel.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3256 on: September 30, 2014, 08:21:35 PM »
I really like this post.

It might be more honest to say that players who prefer the WoW style of play aren't "dumb", "wrong", or "don't like having fun".    They just have fun a different way than CoH players do.

It could just be that we, as a group, are a bit of an outlier in the gaming world.   When we are all together talking about gaming, we of course feel that people who like other types of games are somehow doing it wrong...but they say the same about us.  "Fun" is subjective.

Which is a great way of illustrating why CoH needs to exist.   We might be a small group, but we exist and other games don't do "it" for us.   I've tried other games and nothing else works for me.   I'm only a "gamer" when CoH exists.   Otherwise I don't play games.   There is a real place in this world for the unique thing that is CoH.

Like others said, I'm a bit of a mix.   I had a bunch of "mains".   16 lvl 50s...all of which I played over the course of a month. (some more than others)   I would say I spent 70-80% of my time playing them.   So I had some "WoW" attitude there.   When I leveled a new character, my mind was always on the "finish line".   I didn't really like not having all my powers.   But there was that part of me that did love trying new powersets so I had the "alting" bug too....just not as much as some others.   I still get the itch to try some new combinations.   I mean...Ice/Storm isn't the same as Ill/Storm!

Thats true of gaming in general.  It's often very difficult to see why x group of gamers likes Y game when Y game is certainly not a good game to z group of gamers.  I could use oblivion is a good example.  Oblivion, it's not a game I dislike, in fact I played it a lot.  I play skyrim more, because I like it more, but I did play oblivion before.  It has it's own nuances, just the characters are somewhat robotic, the game is, unlike skyrim, extremely hard to immerse oneself in.  But some people did like it, in fact I even liked that enemies leveled up with the player, because one thing I never liked was games just getting easier and easier on me just because I gained some levels.  An overly static world to me gets very boring, and oblivion wasn't so static, in a way.  The npc behavior in towns kind of were, but outside of the towns you'd find the enemies getting better weapons/armor and whatnot.  Now, alot of people HATED that, I didn't mind it so much.

They hated it for a few reasons.  Power-be-all-end-all players hated that they couldn't just level up and rule the world sololy on high level, power leveling had to be done very carefully, just getting level 50 meant nothing if you had low attributes as your enemies would be MORE powerful than you for it.  Roleplayers who played other elder scrolls games understandably dispised it because glass armor and daedric armor, both very rare and very expensive armor, became especially common place, as if marauders had access to huge amounts of daedric hearts, ebony ore and some super smith working for them while bandits had tons and tons of malachite and elven metals.

It was, rather lore breaking in a way.  I could understand that.  But I still enjoyed the game inspite that because at least the game didn't automatically become super easy mode for me right away.  I had to learn how to do that still.  I didn't stay in character go figure, though.  I also avoided doing some side quests at high levels, particularly ones involving the protection of suicidal morons who'd as soon as jump into lava chasing that high health enemy that fell off a bridge.

Moving to fallout 3, I can say that the game, it's lifespan was somewhat limited.  Things would remain unchanged as you leveled up heavily enough, with only some areas scaling with you.  But it was done badly in that, sure they leveled up with you but they just became easier and easier to kill.  In fact, playing on very hard was almost easier than playing on very easy in some ways, because sure the damage was higher and enemies were tougher, but you got so much more experience that enemies started showing up with the good stuff right away.  You ended up with top quality equipment in very little time, even less so than oblivion, merely by setting the game on very hard.  But a lot of people thought fallout 3 did a much better job.  Then of course, new vegas removed the experience gain from that, cut perk rate in half and upped the level cap.

Skyrim on the other hand, handled the leveling system in a far more practical way.  Enemies STILL leveled up with you, but their equipment would cap out, getting equipment that was practical for them to obtain.  Bandit chiefs would wear steel armor/steel plate/nordic carved armor, the last of those three actually being very tough and on part with ebony armor, but was a more steel-based armor, it was made of far more common materials.  Only flaw I could think of was the necessity of smithing and enchanting to get the good stuff, but that I felt was perhaps for the better imo, as you couldn't just automatically get the good stuff by getting a high level.

Course, every one of them had people who disliked these games.  Some people hated smithing and enchanting in skyrim alot, feeling that making your own stuff should never even be allowed OR that only the best stuff should be found(I personally rather a balance, I hate games where if you have a crafting system, it's useless anyways because you just find better stuff, why include crafting then?).  Some people hated that fallout 3 was very easy even on very hard(honestly I was on the fence about it's difficulty, but I don't play skyrim or new vegas on anything higher than normal/adept, especially not skyrim with skyre which makes it utter suicide to play on anything higher than adept).

I already mentioned oblivion, likewise.  Fallout 3?  Well, plasma guns became common just by doing the main quest far enough in.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3257 on: September 30, 2014, 08:26:56 PM »
Although in any case, I suspect that the Win7/Win8 schism is going to be mostly resolved by Windows 9

Or not.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3258 on: September 30, 2014, 08:38:17 PM »
Or not.

Skipping 9?  I wonder how many names of the options will get changed this time....
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3259 on: September 30, 2014, 08:49:26 PM »
i remember you running the numbers for someone who claimed their Dark/Dark Defender could solo Romulus on the ITF in four minutes. No matter how many people explained using basic math what the actual numbers were and how implausible, if not outright impossible, their claim was they kept insisting that they routinely did it without cheating, but refused to provide any proof. It was almost impressive in a way.

Another poster claimed regen was so weak because without mitigation healing and regeneration were worthless.  They went so far as to claim a single boss could kill regen in three hits.  Normally I assume people are just being hyperbolic or exaggerating to make a point, but this was a bit too far (and it was being used to literally support the point that without damage reduction the regeneration set could not be effective at all) so I offered this poster a way out to back down on that statement.  Instead, they doubled down and claimed they weren't just exaggerating but reporting actual in-game experience.

Calculations trivially proved this statement false, but of course "numbers aren't everything" so I had to resort to making this video.  I did a back of the envelope calculation of the maximum survivable damage for a level 34 regen scrapper I had.  I unslottted all the inventions and put nothing but SOs and a few common IOs I had lying around, and found a Rikti boss spawn of just about the right damage to be at the break even point, which turned out to be two chief soldiers in melee and a mesmerist boss at range.  It takes a *long* time for them to eventually get me.  Basically, the video shows with Dull Pain up its just not possible for two Chief Soldiers to take down a regen scrapper.  With Dull Pain down it is possible, but impossible for just one to do so.  And this was the worst case scenario where you're not getting any help from the primary.

Funny thing: got no response from that particular poster.  However, they would return every few months or so to make the exact same claim, whereupon I would just post the video in response.  After a while, they stopped making the claim and moved on to other more absurd claims.