Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1748417 times)

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5240 on: March 17, 2015, 06:21:55 PM »
They made the honor and duty part a mockery.

Now see, I didn't take that away from the movie.  In fact, what I took away from it, having NOT read the book, was that though Rico entered the military for the wrong reasons initially, honour and duty very much became the overriding reason for his remaining.  There was an element of revenge there of course, but by the end of the movie, you could clearly see that honour and duty were the glue holding the squad together.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5241 on: March 17, 2015, 06:37:42 PM »
Now see, I didn't take that away from the movie.  In fact, what I took away from it, having NOT read the book, was that though Rico entered the military for the wrong reasons initially, honour and duty very much became the overriding reason for his remaining.  There was an element of revenge there of course, but by the end of the movie, you could clearly see that honour and duty were the glue holding the squad together.

As a former service-man, I agree with your opinion  ;)
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LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5242 on: March 17, 2015, 06:41:34 PM »
Now see, I didn't take that away from the movie.  In fact, what I took away from it, having NOT read the book, was that though Rico entered the military for the wrong reasons initially, honour and duty very much became the overriding reason for his remaining.  There was an element of revenge there of course, but by the end of the movie, you could clearly see that honour and duty were the glue holding the squad together.

Thats kind of what I saw in it as well looking back on it.  Rico had gone from a guy who was joining just because a girl was going in to a man who had other reasons for serving, from honor and duty, and friendship keeping him in.  Revenge served more to keep him in after he'd seen his parents get hit by a meteor sent by the rachnids, he had no reason to go home(had nothing to return to), and at the same time had no where else to go but back to the military at the same time.
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Nyghtshade

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5243 on: March 17, 2015, 06:46:50 PM »
I know that I waited nearly 40 years for Hollywood special effects to reach the point where a "Starship Troopers" movie was viable, and when they did, they made a parody of it instead.  I can't even say how much I hated that movie, sigh.

MWRuger

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5244 on: March 17, 2015, 06:48:17 PM »
Now see, I didn't take that away from the movie.  In fact, what I took away from it, having NOT read the book, was that though Rico entered the military for the wrong reasons initially, honour and duty very much became the overriding reason for his remaining.  There was an element of revenge there of course, but by the end of the movie, you could clearly see that honour and duty were the glue holding the squad together.

In the book he joined, really to impress a girl he stood no chance with and then because his father opposed it so much, out of pure stubbornness. You can see this as he cannot articulate why this is important to him or why he is doing it. But eventually, as you suggest, he discovered what it really meant to him and the others who served and he also understands why he stuck it out.

One thing that many who call it fascist or jingoist seem to miss is that it is entirely voluntary to join. There is no draft, and if you wash out, that's it. The one thing you can't do is desert. Even in the war, they only accepted volunteers. Of course, after Rio got hit, they had plenty of volunteers.

One of the interesting aspects of the book is that it is told in first person, but as a recollection. So while there are events that first person Rico doesn't quite get at the time, recollected Rico does and helps explain what we are seeing.

There is a bit where he is given administrative punishment, which is actually much worse than it sounds. Basically, it's lashes, at a post. But recollected Rico explains that it's kind of a compliment. Usually anybody who does something bad enough for that kind of punishment washes out and can never re-enlist. administrative punishment is basically saying you fucked up bad, but we stil think you would make a good soldier.
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LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5245 on: March 17, 2015, 07:06:37 PM »
In the book he joined, really to impress a girl he stood no chance with and then because his father opposed it so much, out of pure stubbornness. You can see this as he cannot articulate why this is important to him or why he is doing it. But eventually, as you suggest, he discovered what it really meant to him and the others who served and he also understands why he stuck it out.

One thing that many who call it fascist or jingoist seem to miss is that it is entirely voluntary to join. There is no draft, and if you wash out, that's it. The one thing you can't do is desert. Even in the war, they only accepted volunteers. Of course, after Rio got hit, they had plenty of volunteers.

One of the interesting aspects of the book is that it is told in first person, but as a recollection. So while there are events that first person Rico doesn't quite get at the time, recollected Rico does and helps explain what we are seeing.

There is a bit where he is given administrative punishment, which is actually much worse than it sounds. Basically, it's lashes, at a post. But recollected Rico explains that it's kind of a compliment. Usually anybody who does something bad enough for that kind of punishment washes out and can never re-enlist. administrative punishment is basically saying you pancaked up bad, but we stil think you would make a good soldier.

I get a feeling alot of people forget what Jingoism is to though, it's generally a view that not only should a nation be the best(nationalist) but also use military force on everything, everywhere, regardless of the situation.  It's a very extreme form of nationalism in that brute force is the be-all-end-all, when in reality it isn't and misuse of military force can cause far more problems than solve problems just as anything can.  A good example of a jingoistic story can be found in the game Jungle Strike.  You fly an extremely tough "Super Apache" and your destroying targets.....of a drug lords operation.  It also gives said drug lords operation the ability to build nukes as the justification as well as giving them an army.  It's not all that well written or anything.  The only reason it's forgivable, is because it was the early 1990s, game stories back then pretty much existed for the whole justification of the games objectives and rpgs were still in their early stages.
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Thunder Glove

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5246 on: March 17, 2015, 07:11:55 PM »
As I noted, it is subjective, but one cannot argue the fact that standards for movies/TV/music/entertainment have gone way, way down in the past 20 years.

I think it was harder to choose a winner (at least to me) between movies/songs years ago than today. Today's entertainment lacks intellect.

Here's an example:

Pink Floyd's lyrics:

"And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but its sinking. Racing around to come up behind you again. The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older. Shorter of breath and one day closer to death. Every year is getting shorter; never seem to find the time. Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines."

Lyrics from a recent Rihanna song:

He want that cake, cake,
Cake, cake, cake, cake, cake
Cake, cake, cake, cake, cake
Cake, cake, cake

Ooh baby, I like it
You so excited
Don't try to hide it
I'mma make you my bitch
Cake, cake, cake, cake
Cake, cake, cake, cake
Cake, cake, cake, cake
Cake, cake, cake

She sells millions of records, so it must mean it's good, right? >.>

The same could be applied to today's movies.

As someone who has acquired a Film degree, it's painfully obvious to see certain tropes repeated over and over in (especially big budget) movies today.

Again, personal opinion.

Here's the lyrics of a song from Bill Withers (one that reached #3 on the Billboard Top 100), back in 1971:

"I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know"  (The song this lyric comes from also features non-standard English and a double negative in its title)

And here's the lyrics of a #1 song from 1976, by no less a personage than Sir Paul McCartney:

"I love you I love you I love you I love you I love you I love you I love you I love you"

Some artists like Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin went out of their way to make their lyrics flowery and poetic, so comparing their most poetic songs to the least-creative songwriters of today is just not a fair comparison.

MWRuger

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5247 on: March 17, 2015, 07:23:51 PM »
I get a feeling alot of people forget what Jingoism is to though, it's generally a view that not only should a nation be the best(nationalist) but also use military force on everything, everywhere, regardless of the situation.  It's a very extreme form of nationalism in that brute force is the be-all-end-all, when in reality it isn't and misuse of military force can cause far more problems than solve problems just as anything can.

Yes, I think that's fair. Really, I feel this stems from a very profound ignorance of history in general. Jingoism is a hyper aggressive from of diplomacy that tends to see military force as a hammer and all the problems as nails. Gunboat diplomacy is a very clear form of this. The consequences of this form of diplomacy are long lasting. Many of the problems that US policy and diplomacy runs into in Latin America are direct result of the way we used our military power in the last century.

I think it is fitting and proper to be proud of your country but it should always be tempered by an understanding that you are not alone on this planet and trampling over others to preserve profit margins for large corporations can lead to huge problems. Plenty of examples of this historical and recent.
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ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5248 on: March 17, 2015, 07:33:39 PM »
I've read Starship Troopers many times, as I have most of Heinlein's books and I think that people look at Starship Troopers and see way more than there is in there regarding the author. After all , this is the same guy that wrote Stranger in a Strange Land. He was complex writer who could write from many points of view but never forgot that he was a product of his time. He believed in personal integrity, self sufficiency to the point of mania and honor. You see these traits in almost every book he wrote, his 50's juveniles all the way through The Cat Who Walked Through walls and Job: A comedy of Justice.

Starship Troopers is not about a military state. It is in fact a republic democracy with one huge difference, the only people who can vote or hold office are those who serve a term in the military. The theory is that those who are willing to risk their own lives for society have a better understanding of exactly what they are willing to do and that they understand what they are asking of the military. To me, this is a book, that has more in common with Plato's Republic than a jingoistic propaganda piece.

Many people die in the course of the book, but it might not seem that way because there is essentially only one character that matters to us, Rico. The other characters are for the most part fellow soldiers and soldiers die. You may miss them but the focus is on staying alive, helping the living and fighting the enemy. It focuses on life in the military, the way Heinlein thinks it should be, but is actually more interested in the philosophy of military service. There is discussion about exactly why does one person agree to be in harm's way for people who can't understand them and essentially think they are suckers? That is  until they need someone to defend them. It also discusses how loyalty in the unit works, chain of command and why soldiers sometimes obey orders they know are bad ones. All in all, people who dismiss it as mere jingoism probably think WWI was a little dustup in France.

Regarding the war, in the book, it is very clearly analogous to WWII, which Heinlein served in. There are other battles that are mentioned, but we only see the one Rico participates in. The War starts with a a sucker punch and is followed by Earth getting to it's feet, following initial missteps, eventually starts fighting, island by island...er, I mean planet by planet until the book ends right before the invasion of the home isl..planet of the bugs.

The movie had none of these qualities and was disappointing to me. Even as a satire of fascism it was a failure. Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game does a much better job of this, showing the consequences of this kind of war than this awful, awful movie does.

you can follow his writing style and see how it changes depending on which wife he was currently married to. none of the styles were bad, just distinctly different. look at the publishing date and consider his views on women in the military and what they were at the time. He was an interesting person.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5249 on: March 17, 2015, 07:37:30 PM »
Very often in the military it starts as serving your country and ends up you are serving to help protect your friends who are there with you.

If you read the book American Sniper it really does come through that way - the movie Lone Survivor also shows it. You start out with one intention in the end you find what is really important - your family often your military family becomes closer than your blood one.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5250 on: March 17, 2015, 07:37:36 PM »
I would highly recommend it.

He said it much better than I did. Starship Troopers is how I think government should be handled. If you have not been in the position to put even your existence on the line - you lack a comprehension of what your peoples lives mean. It is not pro-military or even pro-America because Rico is Brazilian (Pan American) and yet the story shows both the hatred of the silliness of the military at times and the glory and courage of the common soldier rising up to meet the threat.

It could have been the US vs Japan/Germany/Italy or humans vs bugs. Same conflict and the story is done a terrible disservice by the movie. They made the honor and duty part a mockery.
I liked how it wasnt just serving in the military. they would find something for you to do if you were willing to work, not just combat arms. I wouldnt mind seeing universal service(zero deferments) covering everything form military to building new roads and schools/hospitals etc. use it to ensure that everyone has job skills of some type.

Ironwolf

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5251 on: March 17, 2015, 07:41:05 PM »
You see - I want it to be on a volunteer basis. Not everyone can be a soldier but I would like to see a volunteer based National Service for all the other things - however the government adds 50 layers of difficulty on top of how a private company does.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5252 on: March 17, 2015, 07:47:09 PM »
I was impressed by how faithful it was to the source material, with the notable large exception at the end (well, and the omission of the Tales of the Black Freighter, but I admit I never really liked that anyway). There were several scenes that looked straight out of the graphic novel, evoking specific panels even.

I would have still preferred the squid, as an unknown alien threat makes for a better rally cry than a force that the governments all know they have zero chance against IMO. But other than that I thought it was an excellent adaptation.

That was the only sore spot for me, it really should have been the giant psionic alien squid!

Otherwise I really loved the movie and how loyal it was to the rest of the story.
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Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5253 on: March 17, 2015, 07:53:22 PM »

MM3squints

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5254 on: March 17, 2015, 07:59:43 PM »
Very often in the military it starts as serving your country and ends up you are serving to help protect your friends who are there with you.

If you read the book American Sniper it really does come through that way - the movie Lone Survivor also shows it. You start out with one intention in the end you find what is really important - your family often your military family becomes closer than your blood one.

It's the feeling I had when I was in the Navy. Yes the mission on hand is important, but what is more important is that my brothers and sister in arm will come back home to hug their family. That's why we were taught to always be logical and become emotionless when preforming our duty. Emotions lead to confusion, confusion leads to misinterpreted orders, misinterpreted orders leads to lives lost, lives lost leads to mission failure, and mission failure is not an option.

Even after the military, I feel that just because I'm finish serving, doesn't mean I stop serving. Serving doesn't mean fighting, but doing something for the greater good.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5255 on: March 17, 2015, 08:01:07 PM »
Now see, I didn't take that away from the movie.  In fact, what I took away from it, having NOT read the book, was that though Rico entered the military for the wrong reasons initially, honour and duty very much became the overriding reason for his remaining.  There was an element of revenge there of course, but by the end of the movie, you could clearly see that honour and duty were the glue holding the squad together.

I don't think that was Verhoeven's direct intent.  I think Verhoeven was trying to depict a young and impressionable person being essentially brain washed into toeing the line.  I'm not saying that as someone who actually thinks that about the military, but based on the numerous statements Verhoeven made about the movie, like the fact that the hilarious incompetence of the military depicted was deliberate, that the fascist symbolism was explicitly part of the story, and his overall extremely anti-war sentiments.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5256 on: March 17, 2015, 08:11:45 PM »
Here's the lyrics of a song from Bill Withers (one that reached #3 on the Billboard Top 100), back in 1971:

"I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know"  (The song this lyric comes from also features non-standard English and a double negative in its title)

And here's the lyrics of a #1 song from 1976, by no less a personage than Sir Paul McCartney:

"I love you I love you I love you I love you I love you I love you I love you I love you"

Some artists like Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin went out of their way to make their lyrics flowery and poetic, so comparing their most poetic songs to the least-creative songwriters of today is just not a fair comparison.

Oh, what would I give for a single person in the world to understand even ONE point I ever made...

Whatever, I'm used to it by now. I could name at least one hundred other artists of today that are exactly the same. What did the "I know" end up as? Was there a point to it? Did he actually know something? Oh yeah... It was that when she was away, life wasn't worth living or that the house wasn't a "home" when she was gone. Sir Paul McCartney's message was to convey a love to someone.

Rihanna's song? Ummm... Is there a deep meaning behind wanting the p***y?

Sorry, but you can't convince me that standards haven't dropped.
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Wammo

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5257 on: March 17, 2015, 08:21:17 PM »
I find myself longing for the game today. Such a sad thing to consider I may never log my defender back on again. Let hope continue to ring anew...

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5258 on: March 17, 2015, 08:29:34 PM »
That was the only sore spot for me, it really should have been the giant psionic alien squid!

Otherwise I really loved the movie and how loyal it was to the rest of the story.

I was fine with losing the squid, and I was overall happy with the translation to cinema, but even though I enjoyed the movie overall I did have two sore spots, the first kinda forgivable and the second less so.

The more forgivable one was the movie's too-literal translation of book four (Dr. Manhattan's soliloquy).  The print version of book four is a very experimental book in an experimental series where they try to convey Manhattan's non-linear sense of time by taking normal comic book conventions and twisting them in various ways, in particular by weaving the print narration and the visual artwork in a way that constantly keeps the reader slightly off balance: mentally leading the reader to one place while depicting something else.  The many definitions of the word "hands" for example, being played with.  The movie can't directly translate that, but it doesn't replace it with anything else.  There's no cinematic version of this attempt.  And its not like its impossible: Christopher Nolan is famous for playing with the cinematic medium to convey feelings central to the story: Memento being the most obvious example of him playing with how the viewer sees the story to convey a sense of what the protagonist's life is like.  Basically, Watchmen the movie loses a moment of printed genius and doesn't even try to replace it with cinematic genius.  Disappointing, but forgivable.

The less forgivable one is one I think most people don't care about, but I do.  Its a little thing, but its extremely critical to the story.  In the books, after the climax when Veidt reveals his plan to the others and they realize they have to keep his secret (except for Rorschach, of course), they don't leave as they do in the movie.  They just sort of surrender.  The book has a denouement where Manhattan confronts Veidt and tells him he's leaving.  Veidt, in his one moment of vulnerability, asks Manhattan "I did the right thing, didn't I? It all worked out in the end."  And Manhattan tells him "In the end? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."  And then he vanishes, and its there that Veidt has that hollow look he has in the movie.  In the movie, the line is just a throwaway that is delivered by Laurie to Dreiberg where he is the one that says it all worked out in the end and Laurie says words to the effect of "I think Jon would say nothing ever ends."

The scene that is dropped is critical, because its the whole point of the story, or at least Veidt's story.  The movie makes it seem like the whole point is that Veidt's plan will be undone by Rorschach's journal, but that misses the actual point of the story in the book.  The point in the book was that it doesn't *matter* if Rorschach's journal undoes Veidt's plan.  Its that for all of Veidt's intelligence, he doesn't realize that nothing is forever.  He is as his namesake Ozymandias trying to build a foundation that will last forever, when nothing does.  Veidt is smug and arrogant to everyone else around him, but at the end of the story he shows just the slightest bit of doubt, and he seeks absolution from the one being in the universe he thinks can give it to him: Manhattan.  Manhattan's rebuke stings, because in effect Veidt has been judged by the closest thing to God he believes in.  Perhaps that's when he fully appreciates that there will never be a time when he or anyone else can look back and judge whether the scales worked out.  There is no ultimate high horse upon which to judge morally questionable acts like Veidt's.

Veidt believed his intelligence allowed him a superior perspective to everyone else: that he could kill millions because he had the intelligence to know he was saving billions.  That's how he lives with himself committing mass murder.  But if there's no way to be sure how many people will ultimately die over the centuries because of his act, and how many will be saved, if its all ultimately dust in the desert, then there's really no intellectual justification at all.

Without this scene, the hammer doesn't truly fall on Veidt, and Dreiberg's words to him as they leave don't - can't - replace Manhattan's words, because Adrian doesn't consider Dreiberg to be morally superior.  The movie ends with Adrian believing himself to be a martyr.  In the books, he ends as a man whose faith has been shattered.

MWRuger

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #5259 on: March 17, 2015, 08:42:32 PM »
you can follow his writing style and see how it changes depending on which wife he was currently married to. none of the styles were bad, just distinctly different. look at the publishing date and consider his views on women in the military and what they were at the time. He was an interesting person.

I agree, he has very distinct changes in his writing style. I didn't care for much of the stuff that he wrote in the vein of See No Evil, Lazarus Long and the like. I thought he started getting back on track for me with Moon is a Harsh Mistress and then really got weird with Number of the Beast and his attempt at a metaverse that encompassed all fictives ever.

That said, Job and the Cat That Walked Through Walls were very good although still odd in many ways. They were enjoyable and from a personal perspective I am glad he finished with something I could really enjoy.
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