And the mask comes off.

[Arcana]

She-Hulk realizes she is just a comic book character.

Deadpool breaks the fouthwall whenever it suits him.

Impossible Man is really Mister Mxyzptlk thus messing with those two universes.

Comic retconning makes it possible to keep comics current with the culture.

So it would be unsurprising if Marvel or DC said any of variation of a universe didn't exist for the convenience of a particular story.

For some definition of "exists."  In fact all of your examples point not to alternate universes *not* existing, but to them *actually existing* in unusual and/or unscientific ways.  In each of those cases Marvel writers wanted us to believe alternate universes from the one depicted in the story actually exist for the purposes of narrative context but don't necessarily exist for the purposes of affecting the story except where explicitly noted.

So its possible Marvel could construct a story in which they effectively state that the MCU continuity is an unreachable reality relative to the comic book one, but they would never likely state it did not exist in any form because that's a narrative statement they would never have to make and can do nothing good for the company.

[Vee]

Where does the impossible man being mr. mxyzptlk come up? Impossible man is from a planet in the marvel universe, Mr. M is from another dimension.

I'd imagine the only reason the MCU hasn't shown up in the comic multiverse yet is because there hasn't been an exiles book since 2009 and because Spider-verse came out prior to the Spidey in MCU deal.

[darkgob]

So its possible Marvel could construct a story in which they effectively state that the MCU continuity is an unreachable reality relative to the comic book one, but they would never likely state it did not exist in any form because that's a narrative statement they would never have to make and can do nothing good for the company.

For the record I was not suggesting that they would or should do this, simply that it seemed to be a corner they were backing themselves into.

[Sinistar]

marvel has been backing themselves into a corner for years now.

Also they have a tendency to bring movie elements into the comics thus preventing new readers from being confused as to why things in the movies aren't in the comics, while at the same time annoying many long time readers.

Then of course there are the sales gimmicks that they try such as

1. Superior Spider-man
2. Killing off Captain America for awhile, any comic fan witha  gram of intelligence had to know that wasnt going to last
3.  Now the are on the ethnicity gimmick and trying to show that not all heroes have to be tall, blonde and blue eyed, but of course this also will not last forever.    Examples would be: the new Ms Marvel being Indian/Muslim,  the current female THOR that is able to wield the hammer of THOR while the real THOR is somehow unworthy and now calls himself the ODINSON, Carol Danvers goes from being Ms. Marvel to Captain Marvel as Marvel hasn't got the courage to actually revive Captain Mar-Vell, the Falcon is now Captain America as Steve Rogers has been aged and the serum in his blood neutralized, Richard Ryder Nova is allegedly dead and we have a new Kid Nova flying around,  etc. 

Now once again they are so screwed up that a reboot is needed.

Remember Onslaught/Heroes Reborn/Return?  That was a way to reboot many non mutant Avengers and the Fantastic Four as they were so screwed up at the time, especially IRON MAN

Now instead of a soft reboot of only some titles it looks like the entire Marvel Universe is getting rebooted. That is how screwed up things are. 

But I guess Marvel did better then DC as they are able to go longer without universal restarts like DC does.

And the Jack Kirby Estate won a nice out of court settlement with Marvel as Marvel didn't want the case to to the Supreme Court so there is justice for Kirby at long last.

[Arcana]

For the record I was not suggesting that they would or should do this, simply that it seemed to be a corner they were backing themselves into.

How?  As far as I understand it (I haven't been following everything) the basic idea is that the main Marvel comics universe (i.e. Earth 616) merges with the Ultimates universe creating an amalgam universe that is a combination of the two plus bits and pieces of other interesting dimensions.  Nothing I've read so far explicitly states that the effects of Secret Wars affects all Marvel dimensions.  Even if anything stated that, Marvel has played fast and loose with what gets included and not included in the main Marvel Multiverse: even something that affected all of the Marvel Multiverse isn't necessarily canonically affecting all of existence itself.  In fact, the Marvel Multiverse canonically acknowledged the existence of the DC Multiverse in the amalgam comics which means in canon Marvel acknowledges that there are cosmic levels of existence outside the Marvel multiverse.  They have plenty of narrative wiggle room no matter what happens in Secret Wars to assert that those events do not affect the MCU or other Marvel realities unless they specifically mention them.

[Vee]

Carol Danvers goes from being Ms. Marvel to Captain Marvel as Marvel hasn't got the courage to actually revive Captain Mar-Vell

revive him again, you mean.

[darkgob]

How?  As far as I understand it (I haven't been following everything) the basic idea is that the main Marvel comics universe (i.e. Earth 616) merges with the Ultimates universe creating an amalgam universe that is a combination of the two plus bits and pieces of other interesting dimensions.  Nothing I've read so far explicitly states that the effects of Secret Wars affects all Marvel dimensions.  Even if anything stated that, Marvel has played fast and loose with what gets included and not included in the main Marvel Multiverse: even something that affected all of the Marvel Multiverse isn't necessarily canonically affecting all of existence itself.  In fact, the Marvel Multiverse canonically acknowledged the existence of the DC Multiverse in the amalgam comics which means in canon Marvel acknowledges that there are cosmic levels of existence outside the Marvel multiverse.  They have plenty of narrative wiggle room no matter what happens in Secret Wars to assert that those events do not affect the MCU or other Marvel realities unless they specifically mention them.

If you haven't been following everything then I've been following less than that, so it's entirely possible that I've misunderstood what they're doing.  I read it as a complete condensation/truncation of the Marvel Multiverse into a single universe (whatever that even means).  But yes, the greatest cosmic power in all of comics is the unshakable handwave of the retcon.

[Sinistar]

revive him again, you mean.

Yes he has been brought back a few times but I consider those to be temporary revivals and not the real thing.

1. Cosmic Powers unlimited #1:  THANOS wants to use the Reality Gem that Warlock gave him to guard to reshape the universe so that death will love him.  As both a test of the gem's powers and because he wanted someone talk him out of it, he revives Captain Mar-Vell.  he instantly divines Thanos true goal about reshaping the universe and talks him out of it. he also states he is resolved to remaining dead and feels that his time is done. Out of respect for Mar-Vell, Thanos sends him back to the afterlife.  Interesting story and it pretty much establishes that until Mar-Vell changes his mind, he isn't coming back

2. CHAOS WAR THE DEAD: Death flees the universe and the dead all return to the realm of the living, but they are still dead and will go back when things are restored. Marv gets "killed" in the story.

3. Silver Surfer: in his series he enters a dimension of the dead and is aided by Mar-Vell.  There was a story hint that it was all a delusion the Surfer experienced, but when he parted ways with Marv, he stated he wished he knew Marv in his life time.  After Surfer was gone, Marv says to himself "Perhaps in another"  This tale was written by Jim Starlin, the man that also wrote Death of Captain Marvel.

4. Civil War: The Return, Marv is pulled from the past to the present and decides he wants to leave a more heroic legacy for himself before he has to go home to perish.  This would later be retconned into it being a Skrull copy that fans have referred to as Captain Skrull-Vell. This cheap fake was killed in the Secret Invasion

5. 90's Warlock miniseries, a villain from the negative zone reanimates Marv's dessicated skeletal corpse for evil purposes. Warlock faces it alongside his allies and the son of Mar-Vell.  Marv is then buried again in his grave.

6.. Avengers vs X-men: the Phoenix is lured to a kree outpost where Marv's body was prepared, the phoenix power destroys the station and all personnel but revives Marv's body and pulls his spirit back from the hereafter.  Marv stated his cancer cells were in stasis by the phoenix power in him.  He then has to relinquish his new life to save his world from the Phoenix. Carol Danvers is inspired to take his name.

So yeah, they seem to enjoy reviving and killing him again, they don't have the guts to bring him back for good given how he initially died.

[Arcana]

So yeah, they seem to enjoy reviving and killing him again, they don't have the guts to bring him back for good given how he initially died.

I wouldn't exactly put it that way.  It takes no courage to bring a major comic book character back from the dead, given how many times it happens.  It does take some editorial courage to keep them dead, because it happens so less often.  They still want to tell stories about the character every so often, but all of them seem to at least partially narratively rely on the fact that he is dead in a permanent kind of way rare to comic book characters.

Captain Marvel's death is interesting because unusually the story of his death is not the story just of his body ceasing to live, but about how his spirit itself moves on.  That he transcended his physical death is now considered the defining element of his character.  That's why bringing him back permanently is in some respects impossible.  Not because its impossible to pen the words, but because any Captain Marvel that came back permanently wouldn't be the same Captain Marvel because of that fact.  It would be like making a Batman whose parents lived: its not impossible to write the story, but it wouldn't and couldn't be the same Batman.

[Sinistar]

I wouldn't exactly put it that way.  It takes no courage to bring a major comic book character back from the dead, given how many times it happens.  It does take some editorial courage to keep them dead, because it happens so less often.  They still want to tell stories about the character every so often, but all of them seem to at least partially narratively rely on the fact that he is dead in a permanent kind of way rare to comic book characters.

Captain Marvel's death is interesting because unusually the story of his death is not the story just of his body ceasing to live, but about how his spirit itself moves on.  That he transcended his physical death is now considered the defining element of his character.  That's why bringing him back permanently is in some respects impossible.  Not because its impossible to pen the words, but because any Captain Marvel that came back permanently wouldn't be the same Captain Marvel because of that fact.  It would be like making a Batman whose parents lived: its not impossible to write the story, but it wouldn't and couldn't be the same Batman.

When THANOS was restored in the Silver Surfers by Death herself, he had learned and grown from his experiences both in life and in death and was more knowledgeable and wiser about some things. He was still Death's agent and had the whole nihilisitic phase to grow out of, but even without that now he is still Thanos.

Mar-Vell could also be more mature and wiser about things if he were brought back, plus he is still cosmically aware, which is ironic given that power gives him access to all knowledge about things and he couldn't divine a cure for himself.

Also I do remember in the past some editors and writers expressing a reluctance to bring him back due to how he died. Also some fans in the past have expressed their opinion that it would be a slap in the face to all cancer victims and their families if he were brought back.  Personally I think that is taking things a bit too far, but that's just me.

I've read many cosmic stories from Marvel before and after Marv was killed off. With most of them I can honestly say that they would be better if Marv was there.  Infinity War and Crusade being two good examples. 

Sure the other cosmic heroes have stepped up a bit, including Richard Ryder Nova, but that doesn't mean much when the character is suddenly bumped aside and replaced with some stupid kid character just because Jeph Loebs son was a fan of Nova.  Hello Marvel, remember there was a Nova Corps? As in more then ONE Nova??? Not that hard to have both of them is it?

As to Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel, I don't mind that she has the name as it is fitting she use it since she got her powers when Mar_Vell saved her from an explosion.  Too bad the stories of her current series aren't that great.  Also they could revive MArv, have him live with his girlfriend and raise a family and have him show up from time to time and still keep Carol as Captain Marvel. It's not that hard.

However with Secret War coming and the rumored massive reboot of the MU as a result, we shall see what happens.  The picture of the cover of the first issue does show someone in a green and white Kree Captain military uniform flying around...perhaps an earlier version of Mar-Vell?

Marvel Comics has the trademark to publish a Captain Marvel book and for years they have kept it with one shots, mini series, regular series, etc.   Too bad they can't work a deal with DC to obtain the rights to the original Captain Marvel or SHAZAM as he is now referred to.  DC can use SHAZAM but they cant publish a book titled Captain Marvel, they screwed up and let that trademark lapse and Marvel snatched up and created Mar-Vell

[Vee]

Isn't Noh-varr still hanging around somewhere? I lost track of him after dark reign. I'd bet if they were going to do a Captain after Carol they'd make it him unless there was a big clamor for Mar-vell to come back.

[Power Gamer]

For some definition of "exists."  In fact all of your examples point not to alternate universes *not* existing, but to them *actually existing* in unusual and/or unscientific ways.  In each of those cases Marvel writers wanted us to believe alternate universes from the one depicted in the story actually exist for the purposes of narrative context but don't necessarily exist for the purposes of affecting the story except where explicitly noted.

So its possible Marvel could construct a story in which they effectively state that the MCU continuity is an unreachable reality relative to the comic book one, but they would never likely state it did not exist in any form because that's a narrative statement they would never have to make and can do nothing good for the company.

Marvel has at least one universe that do not exist within it's canon. Earth-0, the universe in which Taa existed, died in a heat death creating a new universe that we occupy. (Not interested enough to look up any other existing 'non-existing' universes in Marvel's properties)

Retconning is the bread and butter of comic book genre. Arching over the last 70 years or so it has been used to back out of bad story telling. Consequence of writing a serial, especially one that spans such a long period.

From Marvel's own wikia:Clarification of terms "multiverse," "megaverse," and "Omniverse"

Multiverse refers to a group of related realities, usually those sharing the same high-ranking cosmic entities (Eternity for example).

Megaverse refers to a larger group of realities, usually including partial and whole multiverses, which may be considered in some way "closer" to one another, thus making travel between them somewhat easier than between realities not within the same megaverse.

Omniverse is EVERY reality, including those published by other companies.



More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe#ixzz3XXfBOsMw

[Sinistar]

Isn't Noh-varr still hanging around somewhere? I lost track of him after dark reign. I'd bet if they were going to do a Captain after Carol they'd make it him unless there was a big clamor for Mar-vell to come back.

Noh_varr as I recall was Captain Marvel in the Dark Avengers for awhile, Carol Danvers now is Captain Marvel instead of Ms. Marvel.  Noh-Varr was last seen in the Avengers vs Xmen event being a traitor to the team as I recall.  I don't know what happened to him after that.

[Sinistar]

Marvel has at least one universe that do not exist within it's canon. Earth-0, the universe in which Taa existed, died in a heat death creating a new universe that we occupy. (Not interested enough to look up any other existing 'non-existing' universes in Marvel's properties)

Retconning is the bread and butter of comic book genre. Arching over the last 70 years or so it has been used to back out of bad story telling. Consequence of writing a serial, especially one that spans such a long period.

From Marvel's own wikia:Clarification of terms "multiverse," "megaverse," and "Omniverse"

Multiverse refers to a group of related realities, usually those sharing the same high-ranking cosmic entities (Eternity for example).

Megaverse refers to a larger group of realities, usually including partial and whole multiverses, which may be considered in some way "closer" to one another, thus making travel between them somewhat easier than between realities not within the same megaverse.

Omniverse is EVERY reality, including those published by other companies.



More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe#ixzz3XXfBOsMw

Unfortunately, while retconning gets rid of bad stories, it also screws up GOOD stories.

Amazing Spider-man #400: Aunt May perishes of old age/natural causes, touching story, a good farewell and she told Peter that she knew for years he was Spider-man.   Then writers and editors change and the editor that took over wanted Aunt May back from the dead and back in the books so it was RETCONNED that it was an actress altered to impersonate Aunt May by Norman Osborn, the Green Goblin as a means to torment Peter. 

Also of course is the fact that to end the Clone Saga which had been over extended and nearly killed the book, Norman Osborn was retconned back to life from having been impaled by his goblin glider after causing the death of Gwen Stacy.

Then there is the huge retcon that was created when Joe Quesada was determined to anger Spiderman fans across the board by having Aunt May shot and dying and no one can help her. Dr Strange cant, Reed Richards can't, Banner can't, Hank Pym can't, Hank McCoy can't, even Dr Doom said he couldn't.  But then here comes MEPHISTO with a deal to offer, Aunt May shall live but he will change things so that Peter and MJ never married.  And Peter and MJ AGREED TO DEAL WITH THE DEVIL.   Here's hoping that Secret War undoes that pathetic travesty of a story.

[Solitaire]

What I'm finding hard to understand is can't NCSoft see the potential of bringing back or letting another company bring back (Some profits from this deal) CoH.

After finshing Daredevil last night, catching up with Arrow, Flash and Marvels Agents of Shield, just watched the Batman Vs Superman leaked trailer, followed by Avengers:AoU and looking at the future Tv series and films coming out, this is the day an age of the Comic book films/TV series. The money being made from these is staggering, so why can't they see the potentail of bringing the game back, getting it advertised, because in my opinion it's the best or was the best Hero/Villain MMO out there, nothing came close.

There is so much potential for this game, with the improvements in graphics which have been shown by Irish Girl it is just so hard to see why a business wouldn't take this opportunity to make money.

Just me trying to understand!

[Ultimate15]

What I'm finding hard to understand is can't NCSoft see the potential of bringing back or letting another company bring back (Some profits from this deal) CoH.

After finshing Daredevil last night, catching up with Arrow, Flash and Marvels Agents of Shield, just watched the Batman Vs Superman leaked trailer, followed by Avengers:AoU and looking at the future Tv series and films coming out, this is the day an age of the Comic book films/TV series. The money being made from these is staggering, so why can't they see the potentail of bringing the game back, getting it advertised, because in my opinion it's the best or was the best Hero/Villain MMO out there, nothing came close.

There is so much potential for this game, with the improvements in graphics which have been shown by Irish Girl it is just so hard to see why a business wouldn't take this opportunity to make money.

Just me trying to understand!

Unfortunately - from where NCSoft sits - that type of epic 'swimming-in-a-pool-of-money' blockbuster gold that the superhero franchise sees in other forms of media didn't exactly translate with COH as well as NCSoft was hoping it would.

This is all very much my own opinion, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt - but I actually think this is a HUGE reason as to why NCSoft choose to pull the proverbial plug. I think they saw how ape$hit crazy their western market gets over any and all things super heroes...and I think this was why the bar was set so high in the sky for COH. And please don't get it twisted - I think COH was absolutely profitable. I'm just giving my own personal reason as to why NCSoft thought it wasn't profitable enough.

...Which is laaaaaame and is a VERY skewed way to analyze and measure your data success rate? BAH.

[darkgob]

Marvel has at least one universe that do not exist within it's canon. Earth-0, the universe in which Taa existed, died in a heat death creating a new universe that we occupy. (Not interested enough to look up any other existing 'non-existing' universes in Marvel's properties)

Retconning is the bread and butter of comic book genre. Arching over the last 70 years or so it has been used to back out of bad story telling. Consequence of writing a serial, especially one that spans such a long period.

If true, that was retconned into being Earth-92131, the setting of the 1992 X-Men cartoon (and presumably also Spider-Man, as the two shows crossed over).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus#The_Adventures_of_the_X-Men
http://www.comics.org/issue/214189/

[Felderburg]

Unfortunately - from where NCSoft sits - that type of epic 'swimming-in-a-pool-of-money' blockbuster gold that the superhero franchise sees in other forms of media didn't exactly translate with COH as well as NCSoft was hoping it would.

This is all very much my own opinion, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt - but I actually think this is a HUGE reason as to why NCSoft choose to pull the proverbial plug. I think they saw how ape$hit crazy their western market gets over any and all things super heroes...and I think this was why the bar was set so high in the sky for COH. And please don't get it twisted - I think COH was absolutely profitable. I'm just giving my own personal reason as to why NCSoft thought it wasn't profitable enough.

...Which is laaaaaame and is a VERY skewed way to analyze and measure your data success rate? BAH.

Well, maybe if they'd given it any marketing budget, it would have made even more money.

Of course, if rumors are to be believed, CoH itself was profitable, but Paragon Studios was not.

[Ultimate15]

Well, maybe if they'd given it any marketing budget, it would have made even more money.

Of course, if rumors are to be believed, CoH itself was profitable, but Paragon Studios was not.

Oh, for sure. There was very little budget for promotional/marketing efforts of any kind lol. I would have LOVED to see more online/web ads as well as some :15 spots.

But that all costs money, honey.

[archaist]

Oh, for sure. There was very little budget for promotional/marketing efforts of any kind lol. I would have LOVED to see more online/web ads as well as some :15 spots.

But that all costs money, honey.

I've always felt that our games community was one giant catch 22. One one hand we love talking about the community and how great people where relative to other games and how the CoH system didn't follow the great trifecta and how you can play how you want without other people (mostly) yelling at you. Then on the other hand people are always talking about how not enough money was ever spent on marketing and the game could have been so much bigger.

But in my eyes those two are mutually exclusive. If NCsoft had pulled in way more people we wouldn't have the community, it be much more wow-esque. Where TFLeader XxxWeedWizard420xxX doesn't take you because you are not an emp def or /kin etc.