Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1748210 times)

hopelives

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 48
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1340 on: September 06, 2014, 07:27:08 PM »
C'Mon guys, can you get it right?

Acquired: City of Heroes. Pie: Required?

  LOL !  At any rate. on that hopefully great day,  i23 will rise from ..well wherever it is they have it stashed, and we will get to play the game 4ever & ever amen :)  Addendum: on that day also, let it be known, that pie & cake will no longer be called, "..a lie".    :)

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1341 on: September 06, 2014, 07:44:35 PM »
In which Issue? At Issue 1, Tankers did pretty low damage. I recall at least two damage boosts for them, and one was pretty significant. After that, yeah, Tanks became a much better soloing AT. Also, because it was after the Global Defense Nerf, their defenses were no longer so overdone, and you actually had use for multiple defensive options either because you wanted to buff the Tank or you wanted multiple Tanks or something.

Basically, in the beginning, they were unwanted and superfluous after the first Tanker, and ridiculously OP defensively. But after a good amount of decent fixes, they became a solidly-balanced AT that fit in a playstyle outside of the healer-tanker-control (or maybe damage in CoH) trinity.

When I talk of the game as I see it I'm usually refering to Issue 8 and beyond.  I started playing CoX when villain side came out, ironically because I had bought the good vs evil edition I played hero side the most initially.  It was a couple months in after that I was beginning to drop the trinity and start designing more around multipliers or doing more than one thing in a team.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1342 on: September 06, 2014, 08:02:53 PM »
Exactly so. As deep into the game as I4 the devs were still designing around archetypes as if they had far more fixed roles on teams than the players felt they should, and were still thinking in terms that trinity-style gameplay could still  be salvaged.  The "everyone should be able to solo" informal design rule didn't really become a genuine design rule as far as I know until CoV.  Look at CoV archetypes, and notice the shift in design.  CoV is obviously "post-trinity." 

But if the devs actually had a strong grasp of how to make the numbers do what they wanted, we would have never gotten the City of Heroes we ended up with.  To put it in direct terms, the devs did not have enough control over the numbers to fine-tune archetype power between "lame" and "overpowered" so most things ended up overpowered relative to the design.  At launch, powerset combination meant more to your overall power than archetype.  Invuln/SS tanker?  Godzilla.  MA/DA scrapper?  Doormat.  Dark defender?  Awesome.  Electric/Fire Blaster?  Roadkill.  Emp/Electric defender?  Useless except as a sidekick.  By the time they figured out how to fix it, it was too late to fix: City of Heroes became the best MMO in the history of MMOs to solo in, because the devs handed out powerlevels most admins don't have in other MMOs.  They couldn't bring down the overpowered stuff to "correct" levels except in the extreme cases, so they were forced to buff the players upward to balance archetypes out.  Players always complained about nerfs, but the history of City of Heroes is an 80/20 buff to nerf empower-o-rama.

Incidentally, the last vestige of trinity-thinking lasted surprisingly long.  It was the legacy of Blasters having no alternate design ethic once trinity was no longer the law of the land.  In my opinion, it wasn't until Arbiter Hawk started to look at Blasters - literally in I23 - that I think Blasters escaped trinity-thinking; the last archetype to do so.  Also, just a bit too late because I24 would have been the first issue to contain the start of non-trinity Blasters (one of my regrets was that I think in AH I finally had a Blaster ally on the dev team that thought about them somewhat like I did, and was willing to experiment with them outside the glass-cannon trinity model, and I'll never know where we could have eventually gotten Blasters to).

In any case, none of this was even remotely by design.  It was 100% accident.

I recall another game that ended up a crown jewel by accident.  Deus Ex was originally meant to be a pure stealth game, but the developers accidentally went a little overboard in providing to many weapons for the player....

...then they added a lot of combat augmentations....while forgetting it was a stealth game they were designing.

The best part of it was, thats what made deus ex so great.  In doing those two things, and of course adding the skills system in addition to the augmentation system, they made a beautiful role playing game/first person shooter hybrid that rpg players and fps players could both seriously enjoy.  Heck its a game I seriously say everyone should play.  I know some people avoid fps's like the plague, but those people could probably get through deus ex if they'd just think their way through it.  It's a game where by accident actually does allow you to get through it with little to no shots fired from a gun.  You don't have to be the crack shot to win even on realistic.

And unlike system shock 2 before it, you didn't need X or Y skill to beat the game.  In fact this video series shows beating the game through absolute max creative use of crates, no skills, augmentations or inventory items allowed; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAVRpvgYVMg&list=PL67B3634D970D5603 .

Just as deus ex was one of those games that accidentally entered the odd side of the game industry as a true freeform game, city of heroes accidentally exposed the mmorpg to non trinity play in the truer form, unintentionally, but would it want to go back giving up all of that freedom? :)
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Taceus Jiwede

  • Time Traveler
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1343 on: September 06, 2014, 08:06:08 PM »
In which Issue? At Issue 1, Tankers did pretty low damage. I recall at least two damage boosts for them, and one was pretty significant. After that, yeah, Tanks became a much better soloing AT. Also, because it was after the Global Defense Nerf, their defenses were no longer so overdone, and you actually had use for multiple defensive options either because you wanted to buff the Tank or you wanted multiple Tanks or something.

Basically, in the beginning, they were unwanted and superfluous after the first Tanker, and ridiculously OP defensively. But after a good amount of decent fixes, they became a solidly-balanced AT that fit in a playstyle outside of the healer-tanker-control (or maybe damage in CoH) trinity.

I remember just after launch I would play on a team with my brother and some of his friends.  One of them was an invul tanker that would do nothing but stand in the middle of the room and just taunt over and over again.  I'm pretty sure he would just bind it and go afk sometimes.  For awhile tank's were only good at standing around and soaking damage heh.

Scott Jackson

  • Plan Z: Gameplay Lead
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 497
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1344 on: September 06, 2014, 08:13:30 PM »
Thank you, Nate and Ironwolf - and unnamed others - who've carried the deal this far.  Thank you, NCSoft, for being willing to try once again.

I wish Irish_Girl and the negotiating team the very best of luck.  Let us know when (and how) you need us.   :)

lapucelle

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
  • Warcabbit - Project Lead - CoT
    • City of Titans
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1345 on: September 06, 2014, 08:15:57 PM »
Scott! Good to see you. Thanks for posting, and thanks for starting this whole thing off.
- Warcabbit

hopelives

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 48
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1346 on: September 06, 2014, 08:23:23 PM »
Thank you, Nate and Ironwolf - and unnamed others - who've carried the deal this far.  Thank you, NCSoft, for being willing to try once again.

I wish Irish_Girl and the negotiating team the very best of luck.  Let us know when (and how) you need us.   :)

  Ditto ! Of course, since I am not well versed in the computer sciences, about all I can do is send best wish's, and lol,cash when the time comes of course. :)

Nyx Nought Nothing

  • New Efforts # 11,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
  • Ha!
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1347 on: September 06, 2014, 08:47:37 PM »
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Pep Rally

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 130
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1348 on: September 06, 2014, 08:51:20 PM »
I remember just after launch I would play on a team with my brother and some of his friends.  One of them was an invul tanker that would do nothing but stand in the middle of the room and just taunt over and over again.  I'm pretty sure he would just bind it and go afk sometimes.  For awhile tank's were only good at standing around and soaking damage heh.

That's on the player. Don't blame the AT. You can't expect to do damage when you don't take, enhance, and use your attacks.  You actually hold aggro better when you mix attacks(damage+gauntlet) with Taunt as well.

Feign

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1349 on: September 06, 2014, 08:54:15 PM »
Well, looks like I'm about a week late to this party, but I'm just gonna say holy crap I'm excited!

I'm a little nervous about any kind of business doings with NC, but I'm sure it's an inflated fear from their past slights feeling so personal.

hopelives

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 48
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1350 on: September 06, 2014, 08:55:59 PM »

 well I don't care that it's old, just want it back  :)   

Rejolt

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
  • Infinity Server 2005-2012
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1351 on: September 06, 2014, 09:22:19 PM »
The Guards Jolteh?

Yes! I actually ran into Infinite Zen in DCUO over the summer.
Rejolt Industries LLC is now a thing. Woo!

Dollhouse

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 174
  • "What will happen? Will I dream?"
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1352 on: September 06, 2014, 09:42:13 PM »
That's on the player. Don't blame the AT. You can't expect to do damage when you don't take, enhance, and use your attacks.  You actually hold aggro better when you mix attacks(damage+gauntlet) with Taunt as well.

Exactly. And some Tanker primaries were better than others at getting and holding aggro. WP/ was never that good at it, yet my very best Tanker was WP/DB. The key? You could slot the area attacks in /DB to grab more aggro (and some of the IO sets for WP/ had taunt boosts, too). It took a careful build, but I got that character to be one hell of an aggro magnet...and quite survivable (MSTF, etc), too.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1353 on: September 06, 2014, 09:47:13 PM »
Yes! I actually ran into Infinite Zen in DCUO over the summer.

Hey hey Jolty! Welcome to the gawk n wait.

Nice on the Zen find. If you find him again say hi from me. it's me Shadey. figured I wanted a less common name.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1354 on: September 06, 2014, 09:57:33 PM »
Exactly. And some Tanker primaries were better than others at getting and holding aggro. WP/ was never that good at it, yet my very best Tanker was WP/DB. The key? You could slot the area attacks in /DB to grab more aggro (and some of the IO sets for WP/ had taunt boosts, too). It took a careful build, but I got that character to be one hell of an aggro magnet...and quite survivable (MSTF, etc), too.

There were some other ways to help out too.

Placing de-buff procs into the aura went a really long way to shoring up the taunt. Almost no one used those procs so they were really cheap. The only time I saw them not really working was when a tank/brute would actually use the taunt power and as soon as the duration on it was gone they would jump me again.

Someone showed me that trick long ago. Later I used two on my Time/Ice defender and it worked really well. I thought I was a tank. I played him like a tank... Heck, I was a tank but with better AOEs... but less HP. :)
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1355 on: September 06, 2014, 10:00:31 PM »
I remember just after launch I would play on a team with my brother and some of his friends.  One of them was an invul tanker that would do nothing but stand in the middle of the room and just taunt over and over again.  I'm pretty sure he would just bind it and go afk sometimes.  For awhile tank's were only good at standing around and soaking damage heh.

Its more correct to say that some players who played tanks were only good at standing around and soaking damage.  It was never true that the problem rested with the archetype itself.

Harpospoke

  • New Efforts # 4,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1356 on: September 06, 2014, 10:00:58 PM »
The main purpose of the Hollows was to teach players about the importance of aggro range.  Something you learn VERY quickly when the place is full of mobs of 4, 6, or even 8+ gangers, all hanging around waiting to get biblical on your ass. 
I have to admit the Hollows was where I learned that.    Figured out how to zoom out the camera so I could see danger better.   Learned how much space I needed to thread the needle between two groups too.

Harpospoke

  • New Efforts # 4,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1357 on: September 06, 2014, 10:01:53 PM »
Okay, here is another funny story.  Some friends of mine were killing time waiting for some other SG members to show up and we thought, hey, lets go mess around in the Hollows.  We were at least level 20+ so no worry about aggro.  As we were walking around we run into a bunch of trolls beating drums and doing the "Troll Dance".  You know the one where they hop from one foot to another....  So we were like, Hey let's join in.  So some of us used the emote for large or small drums beating on them like they were bongos...some joined in the dance.  When a low level player sees us and walks up wanting to know why the trolls were ignoring us.  We tried to warn him to back off but it was too late....he aggroed the mob and we had no choice but to put them down or watch the new player get mauled.  Then after we all had a good laugh.   ;D

Here is a pic of my Police officer character Troll's Taskforce Ted citing a troll in the Hollows for loitering.  LOL


lol...I love that.  :D

This game is way too fun.   Got such a strong urge to log on right now.

Harpospoke

  • New Efforts # 4,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1358 on: September 06, 2014, 10:03:32 PM »
I joined a number of the all Fire/Rad teams on Freedom - I think they were on Tuesdays.  Amazing how mobs just melted away. :)
I did some of those as well.    Ever play with a toon called "Satan's Loogie"?  (Exactly what it sounds like...his bio was....interesting)

Harpospoke

  • New Efforts # 4,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1359 on: September 06, 2014, 10:05:05 PM »
Yup! That was me! I ran two or three other popular team-forming channels as well... I was all about doing those Task Forces! :D
I was probably a member of all of them.   Always plenty of options to choose from and the teams were full of good players.  (Maybe there is a correlation between knowing about chat channels and being a good player?)