Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1748879 times)

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3200 on: September 29, 2014, 06:26:35 PM »
I still remember my first PC, an ITT Xtra -- an XT clone -- and the things I did with it. Buying a 20Mb hard drive for $400 and wondering how I'd ever have enough programs and data to fill it up. Adding an aftermarket upgrade to boost it from 4.77MHz to (IIRC) 6.8MHz, and discovering that the system had an early SIO chip (the controller for the serial port) that wouldn't run at the higher speed, so I had to pull the computer apart, unsolder the SIO chip to remove it from the motherboard, and solder in a replacement. The upgrade to a 10MHz XT clone, adding an ARLL (Advanced Run-Length Limited) controller card that would let me not quite double the space on a standard hard drive when Seagate was having reliability issues with its RLL drives. Buying a pair of AST RAMpage expanded 2Mb expanded-memory cards that I only had populated to 1.5Mb when the price of 256kb x 1 DIP RAM chips went through the roof. Having to MacGuyver what was essentially a CPU fan because the 1/4" high heat sink glued to the CPU wasn't enough to keep it cool during the summer. Coming away from a computer show with ten copies of a VGA demo on highly-reusable 3.5" 1.44Mb HD floppies when they were new and a box of ten cost $65.00...

I had the 20 meg seagate mfm drive..at a time when 8.4 gig drives could be had for 17k$$$. buying 720 k 3.5 floppies and ising a soldering iron to make them 1.44...hercules graphics...and jumping straight to ega graphics....

mrultimate

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3201 on: September 29, 2014, 07:05:49 PM »
I had a character in the Legion of Catgirls SG on Guardian, so Virtue wasn't particularly exclusive.

Yes LoC on Guardian was a large SG.   :)

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3202 on: September 29, 2014, 07:27:49 PM »
^ You're all wrong.

The absolute WORST part of building your own PC, is turning it on for the first time.... and nothing happens!

Someone I knew once turned on a PC they built for the first time and something happened: smoke came out of the power supply (turned out the PS was damaged in shipping).

That's somewhat worse than nothing happening.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3203 on: September 29, 2014, 07:50:31 PM »
^ You're all wrong.

The absolute WORST part of building your own PC, is turning it on for the first time.... and nothing happens!

Nah, the worst part is if someone calls you under these circumstances and your required to go through a script saying this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn2FB1P_Mn8
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Ankhammon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3204 on: September 29, 2014, 08:07:00 PM »
Nah, the worst part is if someone calls you under these circumstances and your required to go through a script saying this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn2FB1P_Mn8

And if you worked IT during the 90s it was the solution to about 90% of all calls. About 8% was something not plugged in.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3205 on: September 29, 2014, 08:15:17 PM »
And if you worked IT during the 90s it was the solution to about 90% of all calls. About 8% was something not plugged in.

Don't forget all the "The computers cup holder snapped off" complaints...

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3206 on: September 29, 2014, 08:24:16 PM »
Don't forget all the "The computers cup holder snapped off" complaints...

I think the worst case I had to deal with was someone who didn't know what the start menu was, and very frequently did something entirely differant than what I asked of her.  It took me 50 minutes to walk the woman through something that would have otherwise just took 6-10 minutes because said person was very prone to just do other things even when the instruction was very clearly stated.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3207 on: September 29, 2014, 08:27:58 PM »
I think the worst case I had to deal with was someone who didn't know what the start menu was, and very frequently did something entirely differant than what I asked of her.  It took me 50 minutes to walk the woman through something that would have otherwise just took 6-10 minutes because said person was very prone to just do other things even when the instruction was very clearly stated.

Sounds just like my dad...

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3208 on: September 29, 2014, 08:29:46 PM »
I think the worst case I had to deal with was someone who didn't know what the start menu was, and very frequently did something entirely differant than what I asked of her.  It took me 50 minutes to walk the woman through something that would have otherwise just took 6-10 minutes because said person was very prone to just do other things even when the instruction was very clearly stated.
i worked at a place in the 90s that had a computer set up in the printer cartridge aisle so that you could look up which one you needed for your printer on your own. We had one of the keys on the keyboard labeled "any" because the signage said "Press Any Key To Begin" and it greatly reduced the number of people asking for help using the self-service system.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3209 on: September 29, 2014, 08:38:33 PM »
i worked at a place in the 90s that had a computer set up in the printer cartridge aisle so that you could look up which one you needed for your printer on your own. We had one of the keys on the keyboard labeled "any" because the signage said "Press Any Key To Begin" and it greatly reduced the number of people asking for help using the self-service system.

Untill someone asks "wheres the any key?".  I also fixed printers alot.  In fact, about 80% of the calls I got in a recent job was printers, more printers.  A common mistake was having explorer(no one allowed anything else to be used, grrr) use shrink to fit on a thermal printer.....and the things would produce a huge black mark.  Thankfully i only had a few people who were to unintelligent to fix that, as it was easy to disable that.

Then there were the many cases of not cleaning the things out....ever...and then wondering why the paper didn't feed through because the sensor was blocked.  OR even causing a fire in the thing and then still wanting to fix it.  I could only suggest they'd want to get a new one and make sure to clean it proper, I didn't want them to try and fix it because, well, fire, :/.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3210 on: September 29, 2014, 08:40:25 PM »
Another fun story; Instructor in class, an IT Security specialist,(and an extreeemly paranoid one) tries turning a computer on, finds it doesn't.  So he tries to check the power and everything.  Thing still won't turn on.  He decides to pull the machine out of the desk and open it up...found its hard drive was stolen.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 08:46:12 PM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

dwturducken

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3211 on: September 29, 2014, 08:45:53 PM »
You'd need to be seriously careful about shenanigans.  Old equipment can have faults in them, and heck, may even be the reason people are trying to get rid of it is because its about to break, hasn't, but they know it will, so they put it on ebay or craigs list.  At least you get a new hard drive.

Look for offices that are unloading computers that are just out of warranty. I have a Dell mini that was new enough to be Windows 7 capable (downgraded to Windows XP) that could handle 8GB of DDR2 for under $100, but the place I worked at the time had bought something like 35 of them for $50 to $75 a piece as part of the "replacement package" when we upgraded their server and all of their desktops. (It was a big law firm in a state capitol. :) )
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

ObsidianPhoenix76

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3212 on: September 29, 2014, 08:55:28 PM »
I had a character in the Legion of Catgirls SG on Guardian, so Virtue wasn't particularly exclusive.

I remember seeing your group members around all over the place.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3213 on: September 29, 2014, 08:56:18 PM »
Look for offices that are unloading computers that are just out of warranty. I have a Dell mini that was new enough to be Windows 7 capable (downgraded to Windows XP) that could handle 8GB of DDR2 for under $100, but the place I worked at the time had bought something like 35 of them for $50 to $75 a piece as part of the "replacement package" when we upgraded their server and all of their desktops. (It was a big law firm in a state capitol. :) )

I'd think they'd take disposing old machines a bit more seriously.....  Because thing is, what does one do with the data on an old drive?  The military destroys the drives.  Companies should be doing that to, because even old data is still a big deal.  It takes so many hard drive wipes to really remove it.

Not to mention "slack" in some systems.

The "Slack" is filler data pulled from RAM to fill empty spots in hard drive sectors.  The file allocated to that space isn't taking up the whole space, so slack fills it in it's place.  An example would be a very small file, say a few kilobytes, only takes up a few sectors, one isn't entirely filled.  So the file system pulls data from ram, just random data, and fills it.  This is a big deal for forensics and sometimes it can contain things you don't want there.

So I really do not recommend using old hard drives, big time.  Ethically I'm hugely against it since one could easily look, even if not looking the old data could still be there....right under your nose.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

opprime2828

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3214 on: September 29, 2014, 09:01:08 PM »

As a game designer, there are in fact good and bad reasons to reroll from a game design perspective, assuming as a game designer you have any sort of design goals whatsoever.  For example, if people are rerolling because they've lost interest in continuing to play the game with an alt, or feel the earlier parts of the game are more interesting, that suggests a failure for anyone who wants to make a game entertaining at every level.
...

For those that can't shift perspectives to that of the game designer or implementer rather than the player, I would recommend staying away from developer diaries.  Designers and implementers engineer things with intent and purpose.  You can get lucky and discover that they those things are even more useful in other contexts, but no good designer relies on luck or takes credit for luck.  When players find alternate uses for the things you design, you can acknowledge the fortune involved with that while also realizing it still represents a failing on your part when the original intent and purpose is discarded.  Its easy from the outside for players to believe that it should be solely up to them to decide how a game is played, but no designer who leaves their work up to chance will succeed in the long run.  Ultimately, they will fail miserably and edit themselves out of the genetic pool of the design community.

Those who simply refused to acknowledge that the devs not only could but must have a purposeful intent to their work, those who thought that "vision" was a curse word, lets just say were consistently less successful at doing so than the rest.

 
I studied both design communication and also rhetoric quite a bit in my undergrad Professional/Technical Writing degree, and my original Thesis for my Masters in Professional Writing was specifically on design decisions in an MMO (relating to communication and new user experiences).
 
I have no problem at all recognizing that designers and players often have different, sometimes opposing, goals.  That being said, in Matt's article his rhetoric clearly implies a very -strong- feeling of dissatisfaction with the desire to create alternate characters in CoH users.  It goes even farther, at times, than dissatisfaction into outright disapproval. 
 
Look at your example of a "failure" or "bad" reason to roll and alt from a design perspective.  It closely alligns to one of Matt's: the desire by a player to reroll "because they've lost interest in continuing to play the game with an alt."  This makes very little sense, from a design standpoint.  It suggests that every player's experience, regardless of archetype choice, powerset choice, etc. be exactly similar. That's the only way, from a design standpoint, you could hope to prevent human users from ever desiring to try another "choice."  Yet if that were the case there would be no need for archetypes or power variety in game in the first place.  Simply make all changes cosmetic and be done with it, So there's never any reason for a user to wonder what the game is like from another set of choices.  That, or allow every single player to have every single option on every single toon in the first place. The second option is actually the one Matt mentions admiring in Rift's design.  It was also the design intention behind The Secret World.
 
If your goal IS to allow players to experience different playstyles and experiences,  then by nature your goal ALSO includes the desire for each playstyle or experience to have benefits and uniqueness.  In a system like that, where the design decision included "differences", then the eventual satisfaction with achievement in one experience or playstyle naturally lends itself to desire experiencing others, as well. That's simply recognizing human behavior in your design choices, and is a direct result of your intended goals. 
 
I would argue that the reason that alts were so prevalent in CoH is precisely because the Devs had such a strong desire, from launch on (I know beta was different) to make sure that the game offered an incredible amount of variety beyond just its amazing cosmetic variation, and each one offered something worth experiencing.  This WAS the intended design.   I think that has been obvious since launch, demonstrated in the decisions to allow multiple character slots at launch, the continuous launch of new power sets which could only be experienced via rolling entirely new characters, and even with the launch of Epic and Heroic Archetypes, which actually REWARDED you for achieving a certain level with an unlocked alt you would actually need to reroll to experience.  Enticing players to want to roll alts was a key part of the design of City of Heroes from at LEAST launch on, not some side effect of a mistake on the devs' part.
 
Regardless. my point was that it's entirely understandable that many players took his article to mean he didn't like Alts, and thought a good MMO would really have little to no need for them, given both his rhetorical structure and diction in that article.  Maybe it was just poorly written and wasn't what was intended, but to pin that on the readers instead of the writer is....misguided.
 

 

 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 09:27:19 PM by opprime2828 »

Pengy

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3215 on: September 29, 2014, 09:18:02 PM »
I've often wondered why they swapped out from that frame-work globe to the solid version on live AP.

Because Atlas was a large sphere. He can't be accurately depicted as just his bones.

The guy is Atlas's sidekick, Bowling Man.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3216 on: September 29, 2014, 09:38:06 PM »

 
I studied both design communication and also rhetoric quite a bit in my undergrad Professional/Technical Writing degree, and my original Thesis for my Masters in Professional Writing was specifically on design decisions in an MMO (relating to communication and new user experiences).
 
I have no problem at all recognizing that designers and players often have different, sometimes opposing, goals.  That being said, in Matt's article his rhetoric clearly implies a very -strong- feeling of dissatisfaction with the desire to create alternate characters in CoH users.  It goes even farther, at times, than dissatisfaction into outright disapproval. 
 
Look at your example of a "failure" or "bad" reason to roll and alt from a design perspective.  It closely alligns to one of Matt's: the desire by a player to reroll "because they've lost interest in continuing to play the game with an alt."  This makes very little sense, from a design standpoint.  It suggests that every player's experience, regardless of archetype choice, powerset choice, etc. be exactly similar. That's the only way, from a design standpoint, you could hope to prevent human users from ever desiring to try another "choice."  Yet if that were the case there would be no need for archetypes or power variety in game in the first place.  Simply make all changes cosmetic and be done with it, So there's never any reason for a user to wonder what the game is like from another set of choices.  That, or allow every single player to have every single option on every single toon in the first place. The second option is actually the one Matt mentions admiring in Rift's design.  It was also the design intention behind The Secret World.
 
If your goal IS to allow players to experience different playstyles and experiences,  then by nature your goal ALSO includes the desire for each playstyle or experience to have benefits and uniqueness.  In a system like that, where the design decision included "differences", then the eventual satisfaction with achievement in one experience or playstyle naturally lends itself to desire experiencing others, as well. That's simply recognizing human behavior in your design choices, and is a direct result of your intended goals. 
 
I would argue that the reason that alts were so prevalent in CoH is precisely because the Devs had such a strong desire, from launch on (I know beta was different) to make sure that the game offered an incredible amount of variety beyond just its amazing cosmetic variation, and each one offered something worth experiencing.  This WAS the intended design.   I think that has been obvious launch, demonstrated in the decisions to allow multiple character slots at launch, the continuous launch of new power sets which could only be experienced via rolling entirely new characters, and even with the launch of Epic and Heroic Archetypes, which actually REWARDED you for achieving a certain level with an unlocked alt you would actually need to reroll to experience.  Enticing players to want to roll alts was a key part of the design of City of Heroes from at LEAST launch on, not some side effect of a mistake on the devs' part.
 
Regardless. my point was that it's entirely understandable that many players took his article to mean he didn't like Alts, and thought a good MMO would really have little to no need for them, given both his rhetorical structure and diction in that article.  Maybe it was just poorly written and wasn't what was intended, but to pin that on the readers instead of the writer is....misguided.
 

 

 

Thats often why I say CoX was a game that could truely be called an mmorpg.  Because it gave such a huge variety of powersets and supported to many playstyles from the onset.  The game had tremendous replayability for it.  I didn't think altitus was necessarily bad.  I did know some people who had so many alts they never got to 50, but I actually had a modest number of 50s and had some altitus myself.

But see, I think Matt was trying to still be the traditional mmorpg developer.  Most traditional mmorpgs, your discouraged from alts, severely, as you only have a limited number of playstyles, and then they just keep raising the level limit.  Replayability in these games is entirely from new content, rather than playing through content with a different playstyle.  Because 3-4 classes often usually is not actually that strong in replayability.  Even less so in a team game, just changes what you do in a team at times.  CoX however you had dozens of combinations of powersets.  So even as a team game, you actually found your tactics changed and the team you wanted to be in changed somewhat with that to at times.  A fire/kin corruptor for instance will want a team with solid defense buffs.  A staff fighting/super reflex scrapper on the other hand wouldn't care so much for defense buffs, he'd want resistance buffs from others.

But most mmorpgs, they want you to have only one other identity, the identity of the character you play.  They try to keep you attached to that one character that you spend so much time investing in.  Its like they want to try and be a second life, but thats actually very poor for replayability.  But MMORPGS see use the carrot on the stick approach to keep players playing, and had done that for a long time.  So instead of trying a new character and seeing if something would play differently, they want you to just keep trying for the carrot, which imo hurts the incentive for lower level stuff to develop.

Thats, kind of why I dropped the rpg from mmo when I speak of a normal mmorpg, I sometimes use the term mmohtg because they just, forget what rpg really means or why for example people may play baldurs gate 2-3 times with different characters and party members.  Or why I for example love new vegas so much on the side, and why I also played skyrim so many times and even played fallout 3 quite a few times(no where near as much as new vegas or skyrim though).  Or even oblivion, which I played a good number of times to(breaking it with various combos of magic/thievery or magic/combat and seeing how taking a few different schools changed the game, especially when using KCAS).
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

GamingGlen

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3217 on: September 29, 2014, 10:41:29 PM »
i worked at a place in the 90s that had a computer set up in the printer cartridge aisle so that you could look up which one you needed for your printer on your own. We had one of the keys on the keyboard labeled "any" because the signage said "Press Any Key To Begin" and it greatly reduced the number of people asking for help using the self-service system.

When I heard of this issue, I then changed any programs I worked needing that kind of input to have "Press a key".  Issue solved.

MM3squints

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3218 on: September 29, 2014, 11:03:27 PM »
Here is the website I was referencing to earlier

http://pcpartpicker.com/parts/partlist/

This is the computer I'm going to make xD

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/j2dcBm

opprime2828

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3219 on: September 29, 2014, 11:24:03 PM »
Thats often why I say CoX was a game that could truely be called an mmorpg.  Because it gave such a huge variety of powersets and supported to many playstyles from the onset.  The game had tremendous replayability for it.  I didn't think altitus was necessarily bad.  I did know some people who had so many alts they never got to 50, but I actually had a modest number of 50s and had some altitus myself.

But see, I think Matt was trying to still be the traditional mmorpg developer.  Most traditional mmorpgs, your discouraged from alts, severely, as you only have a limited number of playstyles, and then they just keep raising the level limit. 

 
I totally agree with you on this.  Like I said, I don't think Matt was -wrong- to say what he said, though I very much disagree with his conclusions, but I do think it presented alting in a way that was easily understood to be a very serious negative, even though he gave lip service to "but don't get me wrong, I love you guys." 
 
I also think MMOs need to look at this from a new perspective.  Most evidence suggests that players blast through new content in a matter of days, some just hours, others weeks.  This simply ISN'T a sustainable way to keep players' interest without forcing them to "grind", which turns off a sizeable number of players.
 
You really need to balance replayability and differentiation with continued new content. In short, you want to really try to appeal to as many types of players as you can, and I think CoH did an excellent job at that, once they introduced Incarnate content, even though I don't think it was perfect by any means.