Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1748611 times)

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2260 on: September 15, 2014, 03:40:22 AM »
My blaster soloed on X8+2.  I could clear a whole map by my self too without slowing down.  And solo AV's, and Solo TF's.

Feeling has nothing to do with it.   I am going by experience.

the game wasnt balanced against fully IO'd toons. It was balanced against regular 50's with so's. And I watched fully IO'd scrappers doing the same x8+3 and x8+4 all the time. but with everyone at lvl 50 so build, blasters were way behind.

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2261 on: September 15, 2014, 03:44:54 AM »
Bells, Whistles, increased Aggo Caps, and a Wombat Master AT.

NOTE: I might be lying.
Wombat Master, eh? So a mix Wombat Armor (you cover yourself in wombats), Wombat Assault (you use wombats like a cestus and have a wombat firing cannon, and Wombat Summoning (you... uh... summon wombats. Obviously.)? Maybe even the Wombat Travel pool.  8)
Now that Matt's out of the picture you could also add Carnies/Clowns as a Mastermind set.  ;D

Oh, and while increased aggro caps could be interesting i'd hope they'd still be below the aggro caps of the first several years and that AoE caps would be increased proportionally. (Not that i minded having a friend herd about 25% of Crey's Folly into a seething mass.) ;)
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Codewalker

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2262 on: September 15, 2014, 03:45:57 AM »
And I watched fully IO'd scrappers doing the same x8+3 and x8+4 all the time.

+4x8 was the gold standard for farming with IOd brutes, scrappers, and some controllers. The classes with high resists especially could reach ridiculous levels of survivability when also softcapped.

+2x8 is significantly easier and not even in the same league. Not bad for a blaster though.

(and I'm saying this as someone whose two favorite ATs were blasters and controllers. Melee types with half their powers being passive bored me to tears. Blasters could survive, but required much, much more skill and had to stop doing damage to do things like abuse LoS and the AI)

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2263 on: September 15, 2014, 03:48:17 AM »
You go get any scrapper you want.. and Ill get my Rad/Fire blaster that plays 90% of the time in melee.. not only would you be shocked and amazed.. you might even be embarrassed...

can you do it with so's?

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2264 on: September 15, 2014, 03:58:52 AM »
the game wasnt balanced against fully IO'd toons. It was balanced against regular 50's with so's. And I watched fully IO'd scrappers doing the same x8+3 and x8+4 all the time. but with everyone at lvl 50 so build, blasters were way behind.

Its true I could never get to +3 or +4 the way some scrappers could.  Perhaps the changes in I24 would have changed that.  And yes its true that even a top notch blaster fell behind a top notch scrapper.  But any character who didn't use IO's and sets and then complained that things were underpowered or out of balance is because they were using, in my opinion, unfinished characters.  The IO's and sets were given to us for a reason, they could drastically improve your character.  It's not the games fault or the slightly unbalanced mechanics of the game if you decide not to use the tools given to you.

I am not saying you had to IO or use sets to have fun before people say "Not all of us like to do that"

I am saying you can't expect to be on par with the people that do.  I found myself barely falling behind good scrappers.

I never played characters with SO's once IO's were out.  So I can't say how balanced or unbalanced the game play was for them.  I can however say, my blaster was one hell of a force to be reckoned with.  And I, subjectively speaking, never felt underpowered.  I personally felt the I24 changes would make him slighty overpowered.  (Not that I wasn't stoked for them)

Tubbius

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2265 on: September 15, 2014, 04:03:43 AM »
Going to keep hoping.  Truly and dearly want to see Tubbius gracing the platform of Atlas Park again in his Santa suit, ordering folks to do silly things in the middle of a costume contest. . . like this!


ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2266 on: September 15, 2014, 04:12:40 AM »
Its true I could never get to +3 or +4 the way some scrappers could.  Perhaps the changes in I24 would have changed that.  And yes its true that even a top notch blaster fell behind a top notch scrapper.  But any character who didn't use IO's and sets and then complained that things were underpowered or out of balance is because they were using, in my opinion, unfinished characters.  The IO's and sets were given to us for a reason, they could drastically improve your character.  It's not the games fault or the slightly unbalanced mechanics of the game if you decide not to use the tools given to you.

I am not saying you had to IO or use sets to have fun before people say "Not all of us like to do that"

I am saying you can't expect to be on par with the people that do.  I found myself barely falling behind good scrappers.

I never played characters with SO's once IO's were out.  So I can't say how balanced or unbalanced the game play was for them.  I can however say, my blaster was one hell of a force to be reckoned with.  And I, subjectively speaking, never felt underpowered.  I personally felt the I24 changes would make him slighty overpowered.  (Not that I wasn't stoked for them)
they had to make sure people could level up a toon. I had 34 50's that could farm stuff up for my lowbies...but I do remember being a lvl 4 energy/fire blaster and having some one open a trade window for me and give me 50k inf..It was like being given the keys to the city........

Ankhammon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2267 on: September 15, 2014, 04:18:19 AM »
I've seen you post this a few places, but I have no idea what you think you're seeing. As someone who was watching every patch as it came out to do detailed comparison against the previous in order to find any undocumented changes, if Corruptors had been significantly altered I think I would have noticed. Their attack set numbers were mostly untouched from I23 to I24, other than fixing Scourge damage in a couple places where it was calculated wrong.

If you're looking at the in-game power info "real numbers" displays, those have always been hit or miss for whether or not they work correctly. They tended to be a bit buggy and get confused by special mechanics like Swap Ammo or Corruptor Scourge. Check City of Data instead, it was loaded with the final I24 beta build shortly before the shutdown.

Thanks for the response walker.

First let me say that most of my information comes from mids and from the information provided by things like Icon Beta. If the information is incorrect, then so be it. I was unaware that the formal numbers are provided through City of Data. I made an (probably silly) assumption that the damage values listed in Icon beta would be the numbers being played with in beta at the time of close. That's where I saw the corrupter damage changes.

You must not be looking at the same numbers I am. When I compare the I23 data to the I24 data, the only significant changes I see are:...

Looking specifically at the snipe change and doing a simple single target attack chain for psi blast for defenders (so I could simulate high recharge without doing a full build) using only SOs and a rech of 120%:
Pre I14 changes you get a single target rotation of (Mental Blast + Subdue + Will Dom + TK blast) with a dps of 88.53.
Using a fast snipe in the rotation you get 130.75 dps (TK +WD + Psi Lance + Subdue).
While you can do things like add considerably more rech and tighten the chain, this still represents a significant increase in single target damage (~48%)
The same should hold true for blasters and corrupters if they can achieve perma-snipe. This makes the value much more than no longer useless.

Crashless nukes just add to the overall aoe damage and I wouldn't really try to determine how much.

It was really the totality of the changes and some of the numbers I could see from icon beta that gave me pause as to the whole of I24 and it's readiness. 

Three, they were addressing long-standing disparity issues, many of which were created by melee power creep. As in, melee ATs have gotten many buffs over the years bringing their damage to substantially higher levels than originally possible, not to mention new and clearly overpowered sets like Titan Weapons and Shield Defense.

As for melee power creep, the I24 ranged changes just provides more scope creep as a whole. This is why I was thinking that the reason would have been one or both of those I provided and not necessarily just to redress past grievances.


I'm also only just becoming aware of how much information some of you were given by the company or was shared by development.

I just played the game. :)


Cogito, Ergo... eh?

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2268 on: September 15, 2014, 04:22:34 AM »
(and I'm saying this as someone whose two favorite ATs were blasters and controllers. Melee types with half their powers being passive bored me to tears. Blasters could survive, but required much, much more skill and had to stop doing damage to do things like abuse LoS and the AI)

One of the reasons I loved PB's so much.  It just wasn't a case of just pressing 1-2-3-4 repetitively... You had to actually PLAY the char, shift tactics constantly, adjust your role as the situation demanded.  It actually took skill and concentration.

Ankhammon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2269 on: September 15, 2014, 04:28:11 AM »
One of the reasons I loved PB's so much.  It just wasn't a case of just pressing 1-2-3-4 repetitively... You had to actually PLAY the char, shift tactics constantly, adjust your role as the situation demanded.  It actually took skill and concentration.

Bah! skill's overrated and concentra... what was I talking about?
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2270 on: September 15, 2014, 04:33:15 AM »
My blaster soloed on X8+2.  I could clear a whole map by my self too without slowing down.  And solo AV's, and Solo TF's.

Feeling has nothing to do with it.   I am going by experience.

You go get any scrapper you want.. and Ill get my Rad/Fire blaster that plays 90% of the time in melee.. not only would you be shocked and amazed.. you might even be embarrassed...

Lots of players had these anecdotes.  They are all but irrelevant to the issue of game balance.  Fascinating and entertaining they might be to other players and the devs, they played exactly zero role in creating or balancing powersets or critter capabilities.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2271 on: September 15, 2014, 04:38:56 AM »
This is surprising news to me, indeed. I stand corrected. Is that an MMO industry standard?

Its more an issue of US copyright law.  US copyright law does not allow someone to assert authorship rights over something you make, except in only a few very specific circumstances, the largest of which is work for hire (where I hire you to make something for me, and demand the copyright of that work be assigned to me as a part of contracting that work).  Its illegal for someone to attempt to assert blanket ownership of any work you make otherwise, so MMO operators in the US cannot really say "we own your characters."  It would be an illegal, and therefore unenforceable contract.  They can, however, demand an unlimited non-exclusive license for them to use your work and sublicense it in any way they see fit.  That grants them all the effective rights of ownership except preventing you from using the work in other settings.  However, MMO operators do not grant you a similar license, so while you may own your character in the US by virtue of the "copyright on birth" doctrine, you do not own the specific graphics textures that make up your costume nor any of the copyright IP you might mention in a backstory, like Galaxy City or the Crey Corporation. 

That severely limits what of your character you could use in other settings.  You could remake your character's appearance using different art assets and rewrite its backstory eliminating all references to City of Heroes IP but keeping the basic concepts.  But while NCSoft can use your stuff, you can't use theirs (without a license).


Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2272 on: September 15, 2014, 04:58:00 AM »
I personally felt the I24 changes would make him slighty overpowered.  (Not that I wasn't stoked for them)

There was no time in the existence of the game that any archetype wasn't overpowered relative to the game's balance standard for players with sufficient dedication to maximal slotting and optimal gameplay.

The game wasn't designed to be balanced around maximal slotting and optimal gameplay.  It was designed around the median player performance, as determined by watching all the players who played the game and measuring their median performance.  Under that metric, there was never a single moment in the existence of the game where blasters as an archetype were not severely underperforming all other archetypes.  We're talking 25%-50% underperformance.

That's not 25%-50% under the other archetypes.  That's 25%-50% under the median performance: many archetypes were over the median performance, which made the gap between blasters and the higher performing archetypes (i.e. scrappers) higher than that.  The single largest contributor to this underperformance was that blasters were dying at a far higher rate than all other archetypes.  Solo, teamed, low level, intermediate level, high level, max level.  In all types of content.  The numbers say that if you think you were doing well on a blaster, there were ten players doing just as well on every other archetype and a hundred players doing vastly worse on blasters.  If you didn't see this, your experience was not representative of the playerbase as a whole.

The truth is, nobody cares about min/maxers or the power gaming elite, nor should they.  The developers didn't need to care about us.  We could always excel under any circumstances.  The devs cared about the typical player, because those were the ones that kept the lights on.  They represented the bulk of the players, the bulk of the playing time, and the bulk of the subscription revenue.  They needed the game to present a roughly level playing field to them, and that's ultimately where the devs spent most of their energy.  And I would have eviscerated them if they hadn't.

My calculations suggested that in broad strokes, I24 blasters when played by the average player would probably be in the general vicinity of I23 median performance in solo play during leveling conditions.  Slightly under on average, but close enough.  My worry was that the collateral buffs on archetypes like defenders and corruptors would increase the median performance enough to where blasters would fall below the median again.  But I think at least for the average player, blasters would start to become competitive with scrappers as offensively focused characters.

The people already farming +2x8 with blasters?  The I24 buffs would have less of an impact on them relative to average players in most cases, because those players were already reaching saturation levels of power that small to moderate buffs have more difficulty improving.  And if they did, small price to pay to improve things for the other 95% of players.  The same thing happened with the invention system.  It let the 5% become far more powerful, but it also lifted most of the other 95% to moderate levels of performance far more consistent with the newer balance standard for players post-I5 (particularly when it came to soloing).

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2273 on: September 15, 2014, 05:01:34 AM »
Its more an issue of US copyright law.  US copyright law does not allow someone to assert authorship rights over something you make, except in only a few very specific circumstances, the largest of which is work for hire (where I hire you to make something for me, and demand the copyright of that work be assigned to me as a part of contracting that work).  Its illegal for someone to attempt to assert blanket ownership of any work you make otherwise, so MMO operators in the US cannot really say "we own your characters."  It would be an illegal, and therefore unenforceable contract.
i thought i recalled the EULA for DCU Online saying they get sole ownership of any characters/creative works you use in their game or forums to the extent that you own it. Basically you automatically transfer all rights to DC/Sony by using it in the game or forums. It might not be technically legal, much like other companies' non-disparagement clauses, but frequently having lawyers trumps being in the right if the person in the right can't afford a protracted legal battle.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2274 on: September 15, 2014, 05:02:43 AM »
As for melee power creep, the I24 ranged changes just provides more scope creep as a whole. This is why I was thinking that the reason would have been one or both of those I provided and not necessarily just to redress past grievances.

The largest melee buff in the history of the game didn't even directly come from the powers team.  It came when BaB decided to streamline and improve the animations for most of the melee attacks.  In a few cases they got slightly slower (specifically, the hyperfast punches).  In most cases the got significantly faster.  Average DPA in some cases increased by 30% (most notoriously with Claws, although that was part of more general rebalancing of the set).  There was very little discussion on the forums about how much better the melee sets got, but I noticed.  One interesting area where ranged sets underperformed melee sets - on average they were significantly slower to activate relative to damage.  Average DPA, in other words, was far lower.

I bet most players would also be surprised as to which archetypes - melee focused or ranged focused - actually had more overall AoE potential.  Hint: not the one that included Blaster primaries.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2275 on: September 15, 2014, 05:04:07 AM »
i thought i recalled the EULA for DCU Online saying they get sole ownership of any characters/creative works you use in their game or forums to the extent that you own it. Basically you automatically transfer all rights to DC/Sony by using it in the game or forums. It might not be technically legal, much like other companies' non-disparagement clauses, but frequently having lawyers trumps being in the right if the person in the right can't afford a protracted legal battle.

The NCSoft EULA said that as well.  And then a few lines later, it said that to the extent that was not legal, you agree to provide them with a non-exclusive unlimited license.  So in the US, they have a license to your work.  In any country where copyright law allows direct assignment of ownership, they own your stuff.

Zombie Hustler

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2276 on: September 15, 2014, 05:12:34 AM »
Now that Matt's out of the picture you could also add Carnies/Clowns as a Mastermind set.  ;D

I never quite understood the vehement opposition to this MM set. Okay, I could see where an entire Clown summoning MMAT could be repetitive, but if you added some variety into it- a circus set, with clowns, a cannonball guy, some trapeze artists, maybe even a tiny elephant- it needn't be so limiting.  ;D

Speaking of- that's one thing I wish they had done with the MM sets- make existing villain groups selectable as your pets. A Skulls set, for example.

Remaugen

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2277 on: September 15, 2014, 05:16:15 AM »
I always wanted a Clowns MM set. Can you imagine anything more evil?

When summoned they could all drive up in one little car and climb out one at a time.
Squirting acid flower attack. Confetti bucket confuse attack. One of the little red rubber bulb brass horns used in a sonic attack. Giant mallet. Little ankle biting dogs, it all works!

Just too much fun to be had!

Edited to add schtuff!



We're almost there!    ;D
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 05:39:39 AM by Remaugen »
We're almost there!  ;D

The RNG hates me.

Mental Minister

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2278 on: September 15, 2014, 05:36:54 AM »
I always wanted a Clowns MM set. Can you imagine anything more evil?

I always wanted assault rifle control power for troller and doms. Kinda like the spec ops pets for Masterminds.
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Goddangit

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2279 on: September 15, 2014, 05:54:11 AM »
I always wanted a Clowns MM set. Can you imagine anything more evil?

When summoned they could all drive up in one little car and climb out one at a time.
Squirting acid flower attack. Confetti bucket confuse attack. One of the little red rubber bulb brass horns used in a sonic attack. Giant mallet. Little ankle biting dogs, it all works!

Just too much fun to be had!

Edited to add schtuff!

We're almost there!    ;D

I had made a villain clown not long before the end.  "All clowns are evil.  Some more so than others."

This would be great.  :)