And the mask comes off.

[pinballdave]

1 transferring the client data in bulk to a different company would require consent. That would require a working account architecture for users to give it. Both not going to happen
2 it is explicitly mentioned that user data is not included
3. Pointing out the silliness of the users perceived ownership of their characters when making them in coh explicitly gave it away

This I24 rant is really getting far from reality.

you said it a lot shorter than I did.

Shard - I don't understand your point:  I cannot think of any scenario - when CoH was live or going forward - where this was not done without an opt in

My cheeky point about Lois Lerner's emails is that they DO exist and the player character data DOES exist but at what cost to the Legacy team to negotiate its release?

My point about characters is that Captain Underpants ALWAYS belonged to NCSoft never to Joe. How do you expect to get back what was never yours?

Are you agreeing with me or writing off my rant, Halcyonforever? This I24 rant is really getting far from reality.

[Shard]

1 transferring the client data in bulk to a different company would require consent. That would require a working account architecture for users to give it. Both not going to happen

Would? Maybe.  I do not have recall of the terms and conditions of various iterations of the User Agreement particularly with how it pertains to the product being acquired if if licensing the executables conflicts with that.

3. Pointing out the silliness of the users perceived ownership of their characters when making them in coh explicitly gave it away

This seems to conflict on some levels of logic with the 1st category.

[Shard]

Shard - I don't understand your point:  I cannot think of any scenario - when CoH was live or going forward - where this was not done without an opt in

It's pretty much face value.

My cheeky point about Lois Lerner's emails is that they DO exist and the player character data DOES exist but at what cost to the Legacy team to negotiate its release?

Is there a cat or isn't there?

My point about characters is that Captain Underpants ALWAYS belonged to NCSoft never to Joe. How do you expect to get back what was never yours?

As I said for the other fellow speaking for you - I cannot comment on the state of the various EULAs or their legal enforcability, but this kind of comment is a bit dickish.
Are you agreeing with me or writing off my rant, Halcyonforever? This I24 rant is really getting far from reality.

[Pherdnut]

I feel the need to make three point given some of the topics in the last 20-30 or so posts:

#1. Why is anybody actually fretting about what they're not going to have or what other people couldn't but hypothetically could have when we still don't even know if we're actually going to get to play COH ever again yet? Yes, there's room for optimism but there's no guarantees and if karma just happens to be spiteful, you're asking for it.

#2. The only way anyone's getting their level 50s back is if everybody gets their data back, which also is not going to !@#$ing happen. Speaking as somebody who was relatively late to the game, it's really not all that horrendously unfun to level your way through it. I restarted my favorite character on two different servers just so I could play with friends.

#3. The character creator is awesome. Why would anyone complain about having to reimagine old characters with it?

But the good news is: "Holy crap, we might actually get to play COH again!" So stop looking for !@#$ to complain about until we know what we have, because it might still be a two-year wait before we even get to play something remotely similar. I personally couldn't care less if I'm a level 1 in  a sea of level 50s. It didn't stop the game from being fun my first and last 100 or so times.

[pinballdave]

It's pretty much face value.

what was not done without an opt in?

As I said for the other fellow speaking for you - I cannot comment on the state of the various EULAs or their legal enforcability, but this kind of comment is a bit dickish.

Dickish or not the TRUTH hurts! The characters were NEVER yours.

[pinballdave]

I feel the need to make three point given some of the topics in the last 20-30 or so posts:

#1. Why is anybody actually fretting about what they're not going to have or what other people couldn't but hypothetically could have when we still don't even know if we're actually going to get to play COH ever again yet? Yes, there's room for optimism but there's no guarantees and if karma just happens to be spiteful, you're asking for it.

#2. The only way anyone's getting their level 50s back is if everybody gets their data back, which also is not going to !@#$ing happen. Speaking as somebody who was relatively late to the game, it's really not all that horrendously unfun to level your way through it. I restarted my favorite character on two different servers just so I could play with friends.

#3. The character creator is awesome. Why would anyone complain about having to reimagine old characters with it?

But the good news is: "Holy crap, we might actually get to play COH again!" So stop looking for !@#$ to complain about until we know what we have, because it might still be a two-year wait before we even get to play something remotely similar. I personally couldn't care less if I'm a level 1 in  a sea of level 50s. It didn't stop the game from being fun my first and last 100 or so times.

HERE HERE, exactly the spirit of my earlier posts

[HEATSTROKE]

I don't quite understand the intense feeling of entitlement that folks are claiming over their level 50s. We as a community have lacked any CoH fix for almost 2 years. There is a chance and I mean IF the Legacy deal goes through, that we could play our characters from the creation to however long the servers last again. Isn't that what we originally enjoyed? Isn't playing I-23 or beta I-24 what we crave? All power to the Atlas Park Revival, but this clamor over what we may get in the Legacy deal is unwarranted.

First I think you need to correctly interpret the difference between desire and entitlement. There are people like myself who desire to have their character data restored if at all possible. Some like myself are willing to pay a fee if that actually helps offset the cost IF it were even available. Thats not entitlement..

There is also the issue that the servers COULD be shut down again.. that issue will need to be addressed. How long will maintenance mode last should it be acquired.. two years ?? four years ??

Is what you crave what I, or anyone else might crave.. not necessarily.. we all played City of Heroes.. but many for various different reasons and what you see as integral and important may not have the same meaning to another..

The clamor of what we may or many not get is certainly warranted because is the community and all its varying opinions, wants, needs and desires that make up the game... not simply the assets. Its the community that raised money for CoT for MWM to get the development tools they needed.. so the community has a right to express its opinion.. prayerfully in a respectful manner..

[Scott Jackson]

The EULA between NCSoft and the player did not make your original characters the property of NCSoft.  Instead, it granted NCSoft a perpetual license to use your characters (for marketing purposes and so forth), while you still kept the rights to use them elsewhere - such as in Champions Online or a movie.  Of course, you couldn't copy NCSoft's game assets (esp. costume pieces) into your movie or Champions, so you'd need to use CO's costumes when playing CO or the original artwork from your movie studio's graphics team to display your character in that movie.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/EULA/September_2011

Section 6, paragraph (b), second sentence and beyond applies to your original characters.  The first sentence applies to your non-original characters, such as a Statesman clone (which NCSoft owned but permitted you to use in-game) or "Wulverin3" with an X-Men costume (which they did not allow, due to Marvel's ownership).

[pinballdave]

The EULA between NCSoft and the player did not make your original characters the property of NCSoft.  Instead, it granted NCSoft a perpetual license to use your characters (for marketing purposes and so forth), while you still kept the rights to use them elsewhere - such as in Champions Online or a movie.  Of course, you couldn't copy NCSoft's game assets (esp. costume pieces) into your movie or Champions, so you'd need to use CO's costumes when playing CO or the original artwork from your movie studio's graphics team to display your character in that movie.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/EULA/September_2011

Section 6, paragraph (b), second sentence and beyond applies to your original characters.  The first sentence applies to your non-original characters, such as a Statesman clone (which NCSoft owned but permitted you to use in-game) or "Wulverin3" with an X-Men costume (which they did not allow, due to Marvel's ownership).

This is surprising news to me, indeed. I stand corrected. Is that an MMO industry standard?

It doesn't change my mind that character data from vintage CoH would ever end up in CoH Legacy.

edit:

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/EULA/March_2004 does have notable differences, but I confess I am no lawyer

[Pherdnut]

First I think you need to correctly interpret the difference between desire and entitlement. There are people like myself who desire to have their character data restored if at all possible. Some like myself are willing to pay a fee if that actually helps offset the cost IF it were even available. Thats not entitlement..

There is also the issue that the servers COULD be shut down again.. that issue will need to be addressed. How long will maintenance mode last should it be acquired.. two years ?? four years ??

Is what you crave what I, or anyone else might crave.. not necessarily.. we all played City of Heroes.. but many for various different reasons and what you see as integral and important may not have the same meaning to another..

The clamor of what we may or many not get is certainly warranted because is the community and all its varying opinions, wants, needs and desires that make up the game... not simply the assets. Its the community that raised money for CoT for MWM to get the development tools they needed.. so the community has a right to express its opinion.. prayerfully in a respectful manner..

Nobody raised money to get COH back. That it's even remotely possible is like the Avengers banding together by accident and involved a select group of individuals working very hard to pull it off. Hope springs eternal and certainly we'd all love to be able to just log in and start giving somebody money again with all our old stuff back, but so help me, if one ounce of this infectious community desire to get their old toys back subliminally pushes a negotiation over the edge because they asked for it at the worst possible time, then yes, I'm going to say it was because people felt entitled.

You can't do what has been done to bring this game back and on this particular topic, your money's no good here, so, everybody, please, zip it on the butthurt about the old data until we know whether we're for sure getting the game back in the first place. Don't even think about it until then.

[Remaugen]

There is also the issue that the servers COULD be shut down again.. that issue will need to be addressed. How long will maintenance mode last should it be acquired.. two years ?? four years ??

In practical terms, it really only needs to last until until APR (CoH 1.5) comes online. There is no reason to run it beyond that as all the new content with be on APR. So no one will need the legacy server.


We're almost there!   

[Ultimate15]

First I think you need to correctly interpret the difference between desire and entitlement. There are people like myself who desire to have their character data restored if at all possible. Some like myself are willing to pay a fee if that actually helps offset the cost IF it were even available. Thats not entitlement..

There is also the issue that the servers COULD be shut down again.. that issue will need to be addressed. How long will maintenance mode last should it be acquired.. two years ?? four years ??

Is what you crave what I, or anyone else might crave.. not necessarily.. we all played City of Heroes.. but many for various different reasons and what you see as integral and important may not have the same meaning to another..

The clamor of what we may or many not get is certainly warranted because is the community and all its varying opinions, wants, needs and desires that make up the game... not simply the assets. Its the community that raised money for CoT for MWM to get the development tools they needed.. so the community has a right to express its opinion.. prayerfully in a respectful manner..

I don't think pinballdave is trying to argue that people don't have a right to express their opinion - if you want to voice a 'wishlist' of some kind, then go for it. *shrugs* I think he was merely expressing his OWN opinion that people getting their knickers in a twist about wanting this or wanting that will in no way have ANY effect on what the deal will or will not finally come to with NCSoft, should they even decide to humor the APR & Legacy teams with their efforts. I think at this point, the team knows what would obviously be the ideal for the COH community- which, of course, would be all of us retaining our character and account information and starting back up right where we left off.

...But unfortunately, the chances of that becoming the reality of our situation is becoming less and less. It's looking like that will NOT be happening, unless some major changes are made through the deals and negotiations (which still could happen, of course). So if you want to voice your complaints and stick to your montra of "Well it won't be the same, this is unfair, I still hate NCSoft..." yadda yadda, then go for it. You have ever right to do that (and I'm not saying you're doing that specifically, HEATSTROKE). But the rest of us will remain patient and optimistic, continue to fight and be grateful, and see how the cards unfold knowing that the people behind these efforts are doing their best to get our game back.

Step 1: get the game back.

[pinballdave]

I don't think pinballdave is trying to argue that people don't have a right to express their opinion - if you want to voice a 'wishlist' of some kind, then go for it. *shrugs* I think he was merely expressing his OWN opinion that people getting their knickers in a twist about wanting this or wanting that will in no way have ANY effect on what the deal will or will not finally come to with NCSoft, should they even decide to humor the APR & Legacy teams with their efforts. I think at this point, the team knows what would obviously be the ideal for the COH community- which, of course, would be all of us retaining our character and account information and starting back up right where we left off.

...But unfortunately, the chances of that becoming the reality of our situation is becoming less and less. It's looking like that will NOT be happening, unless some major changes are made through the deals and negotiations (which still could happen, of course). So if you want to voice your complaints and stick to your montra of "Well it won't be the same, this is unfair, I still hate NCSoft..." yadda yadda, then go for it. You have ever right to do that (and I'm not saying you're doing that specifically, HEATSTROKE). But the rest of us will remain patient and optimistic, continue to fight and be grateful, and see how the cards unfold knowing that the people behind these efforts are doing their best to get our game back.

Step 1: get the game back.

Indeed I am optimistic, more than I was a month ago even. I think I did say in my rant "All power to Atlas Park Revival" that's where we can get the omissions, bells, and whistles.

[Cailyn Alaynn]

I can think of two obvious possible reasons for this.
One, the devs knew something was up and the game was getting close to closing. This would have been a push for new players to save the game.
Two, the devs were settling the game with an eye to the future issues. As in, they had something planned which would have included much harder content.

If they wanted to bring an influx of players they would have done it with new content. Bug fixes are only really exciting to current players because they're tired of dealing with said bugs.

[Cailyn Alaynn]

If there was a plan, does APR know of it and its details long term?.... that sounds like awful English, but I think it's correct.

We know what anyone who read the Issue 24 patch notes, and the Loregasm AMA's knows.
Sadly, I don' t have any inside knowledge into what the Paragon Studios devs were thinking or planning.

[Cailyn Alaynn]

Indeed I am optimistic, more than I was a month ago even. I think I did say in my rant "All power to Atlas Park Revival" that's where we can get the omissions, bells, and whistles.

Bells, Whistles, increased Aggo Caps, and a Wombat Master AT.

NOTE: I might be lying.

[HEATSTROKE]

In practical terms, it really only needs to last until until APR (CoH 1.5) comes online. There is no reason to run it beyond that as all the new content with be on APR. So no one will need the legacy server.


We're almost there!   

This brings me back to my concern.. I make new characters.. APR goes up.. if I cant switch them over.. then why build them up again on CoH Legacy ??

[Cailyn Alaynn]

"Is there any chance we'll be able to move our characters from Legacy CoH to Revival?
It's something I plan on looking into. However, I can't make any promises at this time. We're not sure what technical limitations we might face with this."

We're not going to be handling the Legacy server, nor do I know for sure there wouldn't be any technical issues...So I can't make any promises. It is something I want to try and make happen however.

[Pherdnut]

Bells, Whistles, increased Aggo Caps, and a Wombat Master AT.

NOTE: I might be lying.

It's not nice to joke about Wombat Masters.

[Remaugen]

This brings me back to my concern.. I make new characters.. APR goes up.. if I cant switch them over.. then why build them up again on CoH Legacy ??

For the chance to play again! And with a bit of hope that they will go over to 1.5. No reason to worry or feel futility, instead, just look forward with hope and be happy to play again!


We're almost there!