Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749843 times)

Ironwolf

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3460 on: October 06, 2014, 02:40:43 PM »
To me the port to UR4 can be done with volunteers.

Running the game will require a studio at some point. If you want to continue development and sell the product you will need to have some form of an accounting structure and a responsible entity. If you tied it to Steam - that is one way but I would still have it a standalone purchase or be able to run without Steam running as some folks have an irrational hatred for Steam.

Here is the other part - let's say the game is wildly successful and gets 5 million subscribers - people will want to get paid. If you are raking in $10 million a month then you need a structure outlined even if not filled until needed. A Business Plan would be step one after the deal is complete.

Technically what is being done in APR currently is a reverse engineering exercise. Nothing to see there this is not the copyright violation you are looking for.

thunderforce

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3461 on: October 06, 2014, 03:06:18 PM »
Copyright laws don't apply to things made for personal use,

Wrong again. That varies depending on the activity and the jurisdiction. For example, even format-shifting was a violation in the UK until June (!), and under the CDPA '88 one had no right to make a transient copy of a work in the normal course of viewing or watching it (!). [1] And no, the situation is not clear-cut in America, either; nor in the EU in general (so I would be amazed if it was in Ireland...)

Furthermore, if what she's posted is "little more than fan art", given that the overwhelming majority of fan art is copyright violations...

[1] Yes, of course these laws are absurd. I am not trying to defend them.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3462 on: October 06, 2014, 03:44:36 PM »

BadWolf

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3463 on: October 06, 2014, 04:12:46 PM »
Wrong again. That varies depending on the activity and the jurisdiction. For example, even format-shifting was a violation in the UK until June (!), and under the CDPA '88 one had no right to make a transient copy of a work in the normal course of viewing or watching it (!). [1] And no, the situation is not clear-cut in America, either; nor in the EU in general (so I would be amazed if it was in Ireland...)

Furthermore, if what she's posted is "little more than fan art", given that the overwhelming majority of fan art is copyright violations...

[1] Yes, of course these laws are absurd. I am not trying to defend them.

It's worth mentioning here that what the law says and what the company chooses to enforce are often two very different things. Frequently, they accept and sometimes even encourage fan-created art or fiction as a community-building exercise so long as it's for a non-commercial purpose and no profits are being made. But this should never be mistaken for a legal protection for those activities. In other words, the copyright-holder can shut you down at any time for any reason.

In this case, of course, Irish Girl is doing her work in anticipation of the copyright holder's permission for use, and is not distributing any of her work apart from a few screenshots here and there. She's almost certainly safe on practical grounds, even if she doesn't have explicit permission to do what she's doing.

Zychan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3464 on: October 06, 2014, 04:27:39 PM »
I tried to post this before, but an untimely crash lost my post, so here it take two!

Talk of setting the game in other cities got me to thinking of places that might offer a good unique flavor for "World of Heroes". Some of the mobs would be ones we already know, but others should be unique to the location.

  • Crescent City: Roughly based on New Orleans along the Gulf Coast, it might feature a Voodoo theme and perhaps humanoid mutant gators roaming the near bayous.
  • Southwest: A rough combination of bits of Texas, New Mexico & Arizona. Cowboy & Indian cults, gang driven drug wars, UFOs and Little Green men, rattlesnakes, coyotes and roadrunners. It may be hard to define a cultural flavor without someone becoming offended by perceived stereotypes though.
  • SoCal / West Coast: I think that Titan City may have this location covered.
  • Emerald City / Northwest: Roughly taken from elements of Seattle and Portland, it could feature zones like "Jet City" (Boeing Field) and of course should have a "Space Needle". It might feature conflicts between the "Green Tree Huggers" and the "Angry Lumberjacks".
  • Steel Town / Motor City: Roughly an industrialised combination of Pittsburgh and Detroit. Poverty stricken neighborhoods surrounded by factories, some run down or abandoned and others as shiny glowing examples of the pinnacle of industry. Organised Crime driven by The Family and of course Nemesis bots everywhere!
  • Maple Leaf City: (Yes it is poorly named) Found along the St Lawrence River, featuring bits of Montreal, Quebec, Ottawa and Toronto. They will battle smugglers, homegrown separatists and stupid American tourists. (Sorry couldn't think of something else uniquely Canadian)
  • Imperial / Royal City: Based largely on London, we will see proper Bobbies roaming the streets and battling soccer hooligans trashing the town after sporting events. Druids attempting to dispel technology, ghosts and rippers, perhaps the Tsoo have a foothold here too.
  • Rio de Paz: This Amazonian / Central American City is based roughly on Rio De Janeiro with other South & Central American Elements. Perhaps we can see a different flavor of voodoo here as well as elements roughly inspired by the Inca's, Aztecs & Mayans. Here too we might see some of the drug wars.
  • Asian City / Island Nation: (Had a real tough time coming up with a name for this one) This city will be situated on a large island and will draw elements from all the great Asian cities. Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore and Seoul should all lend flavor. Tsoo will square off against The Tongs and Triads, and both will fight with the more organised criminal gangs based on the Yakuza and Gangpae. Gargantuan Monster events are pretty much mandatory here as are runaway high tech corporations and technology based villains and cheesey martials arts / kung-fu movie scenes.
  • Cape City: Drawn mainly from African elements, this one might be harder to keep politically correct, but as long as the city was kept polycultural it should be ok. Hidden intelligent, technological gorilla tribes are a comic book staple as are man-beasts. Perhaps we can see some Moreaus here, escaped from some mad scientists labs in large enough numbers to form tribes and gangs. Revolutionaries face off with huge mining companies and the primitive bushman comes face to face with the world of high technology.

Ok, so all the ideas are very rough and probably unworkable without resorting to some stereotypical connotations, but I felt like tossing it out there.

I really like some of these ideas!  I can definitely see a great "feel" for the universe if some of these were implemented.  My favorites were:
Crescent City - love the idea of the Voodoo theme (Mr Bocor.  You will call me Mr. Bocor.) and the Gator men.
Asian City - A GREAT fit for story hooks between the 3 "clans".  Everyone was Kung Fu Fighting!  And the giant monsters?  You nailed it - mandatory with some great story lines about what brings them about!

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3465 on: October 06, 2014, 04:36:07 PM »
You forgot a publisher who will provide the logistics, finance, marketing/market research, additional capital, legal, Ops, basically majority of the "back of the house."

Actually, you don't -have- to have a publisher these days. That's kinda the point of digital distribution.  You will need to handle all those other things yourself if you don't, though.

MM3squints

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3466 on: October 06, 2014, 04:40:33 PM »
Actually, you don't -have- to have a publisher these days. That's kinda the point of digital distribution.  You will need to handle all those other things yourself if you don't, though.

Ya I stated that with the example of Steam. The second paragraph stated what a publisher would cover. If your organization is capable of covering all those bases, then more power to you.

Harpospoke

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3467 on: October 06, 2014, 06:43:26 PM »
To me the port to UR4 can be done with volunteers.

Running the game will require a studio at some point. If you want to continue development and sell the product you will need to have some form of an accounting structure and a responsible entity. If you tied it to Steam - that is one way but I would still have it a standalone purchase or be able to run without Steam running as some folks have an irrational hatred for Steam.

Here is the other part - let's say the game is wildly successful and gets 5 million subscribers - people will want to get paid. If you are raking in $10 million a month then you need a structure outlined even if not filled until needed. A Business Plan would be step one after the deal is complete.

Technically what is being done in APR currently is a reverse engineering exercise. Nothing to see there this is not the copyright violation you are looking for.
Good point there.   The possibility of under-performance has been well discussed since it seems "more likely", but what happens if there is over-performance?

A failure can cause stress and conflict in a team for sure, but success can split a group of people too.  That might be something all involved want to give some thought to.   Better make sure everyone will get a piece of it.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3468 on: October 06, 2014, 07:10:18 PM »
Good point there.   The possibility of under-performance has been well discussed since it seems "more likely", but what happens if there is over-performance?

A failure can cause stress and conflict in a team for sure, but success can split a group of people too.  That might be something all involved want to give some thought to.   Better make sure everyone will get a piece of it.

Success was ironically what drove Notch to sell Mojang to Microsoft, actually.  He never expected minecraft to be such an enourmous success.  A few other members of Mojang moved on to.

I wouldn't be surprised if more players try the game out because it was shut down though, to try and see why it's coming back(or shut down).  One reason people will need to be helping those particular newbies, we need to show who we really are and were before the shutdown.  I also see CoX coming back as potentially extremely beneficial to the mmorpg industry, as right now people are noticing it's stagnation is seriously getting bad.  Wildstar insta-failing practically proves that :/.
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Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off
« Reply #3469 on: October 06, 2014, 08:07:50 PM »
Insofar as no game can please everybody all the time, you're right. But I find it difficult to understand how someone who loved the L1-50 game could love something so incongruent as the iTrials.

Speaking for myself, mostly because I didn't find it incongruent.  To me, there's a very straight line you can draw from the L1-50 game which is about power progression, through the invention system which is about enhancement progression, to the incarnate system that is about a higher level hybrid of that.

Now, in terms of the incarnate *content*, it did start off as a large scale raid system, but they were adding other content to it, and if anything it was a far superior experience in my opinion to the original raid system - Hamidon.  It wasn't too dissimilar from, and could be seen as an extension of, zone events, mothership raids, and other larger scale content.

Its also fair to say that the incarnate raid content added something for players who wanted something larger scale than the 4-8 task force system, so in a sense it was also an extension of the task force/strike force system.


Quote
I felt a unique kinship with the kind of players who formed the Taxicab service, or who would see a newbie struggling a bit and dump some Inf on them just because they could. I felt very little kinship with most of the iTrial lovers.

You say that like those were two different exclusive groups of players.


Quote
From what I gather, the datamining seemed to indicate that only a tiny % of the game's population experienced the Incarnate system, and honestly I'm not that surprised.

That was not my understanding.  In terms of overall percentages, it was probably not high, but that's because most players did not have level 50 players: it took a lot more investment in time than most players appreciated to get a character to 50, and all the end game systems were targeted at them.  In terms of players who had at least one level 50, I think the percentage was probably reasonable.  Particularly if you include all players that at least possessed a slotted Alpha power, which was usable outside of iTrials.

Quote
Even from a design perspective, the Incarnate system felt like a massive compromise, as if the devs were stuck between a rock (l33t players seeking end-game progression) and a hard place (a codebase completely hostile to raising of the level cap and the expansion of the power set system that was already straining from the existance of primary, secondary, pool, and epic/patron sets). On the one hand, it could be argued that the Incarnate system was better than no system of advanced powers at all. But the take-away for me is that any "spiritual successor" to CoH under development today ought to seriously re-think its approach to the "end game" and not make it feel like all the other MMOs out there because, frankly, most of us loved CoH precisely because it didn't try to feel like all the others (which mostly just wanted to feel like WoW).

So here's the thing.  There was nothing preventing the devs from raising the level cap.  I'm not sure why you think the gamecode was "hostile" to that, except that I think you think that would have been a good idea.

It would have been a terrible idea.  There's no specific reason to raise the level cap of a game unless your intent is to *stratify* the players at the cap.  A level 50 has content available to her that a level 40 doesn't (barring sidekicking into it).  Levels are *gates* in game design, and you add more when you want to add more gates.  City of Heroes didn't need more content gates, because it didn't have enough players to justify more stratification at the top.  Moreover, the players that did reach the cap had spent a long time there and had built up their characters to exist at the cap through builds and inventions: raising the cap would simply force them to restart those builds from scratch.

The incarnate system was not in my opinion a "compromise" in this sense.  It was actually the correct target to aim for.  Rather than adding more "levels" to the game the Incarnate system created a way to advance through gaining powers and abilities without having to invalidate level 50 builds.  Furthermore, much of that heightened ability was *only* usable in the end game content.  That made it a completely optional enhancement to the game.  Had the devs created (all) incarnate abilities that could be used everywhere, they would have started a chain reaction of power creep where they would have to rebalance PvE content for stronger players - but that would leave non-incarnates behind. 

The fact that some players said they didn't like it and thus did not participate is part of the strength of the system: even moreso than the invention system it could be safely ignored for those that did not want to participate.  If you didn't participate in the invention system, you'd quickly notice the massive strength difference between you and your fellow players in teamed content.  But except for the benefits of Alpha which were not as noticeable, you wouldn't notice a strong difference between you and your incarnate brethren in teamed content outside of the iTrials.

When the invention system was introduced in I9, there was a deliberate intent for it to affect the entire game.  It was technically optional, but the design intent was to essentially replace the standard enhancement system with something better.  It was designed to change the entire game, and it did for those that paid even a small amount of attention to it.  The incarnate system was designed with the opposite intent: to disrupt the conventional game as little as possible, and in that it mostly succeeded.  Changes like restructuring power sets or adding powers and slots or raising the level cap all disrupt the convention game in many ways subtle and not so subtle.  The devs didn't avoid doing those things because they couldn't, they avoided them because they were all bad ideas if you wanted to preserve the L1-50 environment while simultaneously introducing very powerful character progression content.


I should also express my opinion that "most of us" is a phrase to be used sparingly, and only with unimpeachable justification.  I'm generally not comfortable doing it, and I don't think anyone else should either.

AlienOne

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3470 on: October 06, 2014, 08:39:55 PM »
Arcana: 1
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"What COH did was to show [developers of other] MMOs what they could be like if they gave up on controlling everything in the game, and just made it something great to play."  - Johnny Joy Bringer

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3471 on: October 06, 2014, 09:33:36 PM »
Arcana: 1
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That's the problem with hitting level 50 on the internet: your score pegs at 1.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off
« Reply #3472 on: October 06, 2014, 09:44:34 PM »
Speaking for myself, mostly because I didn't find it incongruent.  To me, there's a very straight line you can draw from the L1-50 game which is about power progression, through the invention system which is about enhancement progression, to the incarnate system that is about a higher level hybrid of that.

Now, in terms of the incarnate *content*, it did start off as a large scale raid system, but they were adding other content to it, and if anything it was a far superior experience in my opinion to the original raid system - Hamidon.  It wasn't too dissimilar from, and could be seen as an extension of, zone events, mothership raids, and other larger scale content.

Its also fair to say that the incarnate raid content added something for players who wanted something larger scale than the 4-8 task force system, so in a sense it was also an extension of the task force/strike force system.


You say that like those were two different exclusive groups of players.


That was not my understanding.  In terms of overall percentages, it was probably not high, but that's because most players did not have level 50 players: it took a lot more investment in time than most players appreciated to get a character to 50, and all the end game systems were targeted at them.  In terms of players who had at least one level 50, I think the percentage was probably reasonable.  Particularly if you include all players that at least possessed a slotted Alpha power, which was usable outside of iTrials.

So here's the thing.  There was nothing preventing the devs from raising the level cap.  I'm not sure why you think the gamecode was "hostile" to that, except that I think you think that would have been a good idea.

It would have been a terrible idea.  There's no specific reason to raise the level cap of a game unless your intent is to *stratify* the players at the cap.  A level 50 has content available to her that a level 40 doesn't (barring sidekicking into it).  Levels are *gates* in game design, and you add more when you want to add more gates.  City of Heroes didn't need more content gates, because it didn't have enough players to justify more stratification at the top.  Moreover, the players that did reach the cap had spent a long time there and had built up their characters to exist at the cap through builds and inventions: raising the cap would simply force them to restart those builds from scratch.

The incarnate system was not in my opinion a "compromise" in this sense.  It was actually the correct target to aim for.  Rather than adding more "levels" to the game the Incarnate system created a way to advance through gaining powers and abilities without having to invalidate level 50 builds.  Furthermore, much of that heightened ability was *only* usable in the end game content.  That made it a completely optional enhancement to the game.  Had the devs created (all) incarnate abilities that could be used everywhere, they would have started a chain reaction of power creep where they would have to rebalance PvE content for stronger players - but that would leave non-incarnates behind. 

The fact that some players said they didn't like it and thus did not participate is part of the strength of the system: even moreso than the invention system it could be safely ignored for those that did not want to participate.  If you didn't participate in the invention system, you'd quickly notice the massive strength difference between you and your fellow players in teamed content.  But except for the benefits of Alpha which were not as noticeable, you wouldn't notice a strong difference between you and your incarnate brethren in teamed content outside of the iTrials.

When the invention system was introduced in I9, there was a deliberate intent for it to affect the entire game.  It was technically optional, but the design intent was to essentially replace the standard enhancement system with something better.  It was designed to change the entire game, and it did for those that paid even a small amount of attention to it.  The incarnate system was designed with the opposite intent: to disrupt the conventional game as little as possible, and in that it mostly succeeded.  Changes like restructuring power sets or adding powers and slots or raising the level cap all disrupt the convention game in many ways subtle and not so subtle.  The devs didn't avoid doing those things because they couldn't, they avoided them because they were all bad ideas if you wanted to preserve the L1-50 environment while simultaneously introducing very powerful character progression content.


I should also express my opinion that "most of us" is a phrase to be used sparingly, and only with unimpeachable justification.  I'm generally not comfortable doing it, and I don't think anyone else should either.

Though I get the feeling there were more people playing then you probably think Arcana, I agree with all the other points.  Incarnate content was designed to maximize and maintain maximum replayability.  Just increasing the level cap to 60 would have not only invalidated level 50 builds but also not increase replayability any, only decrease it I feel.  It was made such that existing level 50 content wouldn't be made to easy just due to the fact that a level 60 would not be challenged nore be able to fully enjoy level 50 stuff anymore.  So incarnate content was designed to maximize bang for the buck, it expanded end-game options and added new options for character customization, and gave more things to do without making everything at level 50 something you can no longer do.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Brigadine

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3473 on: October 06, 2014, 10:08:02 PM »
Several things will be needed, including but not limited to:

* Registered company
* IP rights
* Salaried employees
* Sufficient cash to deliver the product AND to keep it going post-release
* Porfolio

Without the salaried employees or portfolio, you're more likely to be considered an indie studio (which is what I consider MWM to be).  There's nothing wrong with indie studio's btw, but I was responding to someone who said he wanted a "professional studio" to be running CoH. 

No offence to you, IG, but I can't really see you making CoH 1.5 a full on professional studio this side of actually releasing something.  Perhaps in the future, but not for quite some time.

Besides, it's completely not necessary anyway.  Unlike the guy I was responding to, I don't see that a "professional studio" is even remotely needed.
Why isn't a professional studio needed? It would be nice have a development team making new content to the game. I want new content if we can get it. Obviously what IG is doing is pretty much miracle worker work but she wont be able to expand the game like a studio on her own. Why would be not want to better our game? Not to mention the money it could bring in and add longevity to the game.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3474 on: October 06, 2014, 10:53:10 PM »
To me the port to UR4 can be done with volunteers.



The problem there is unless NCsoft gives the team source code access, and by some great boon they figure out a way to reasonably transplant CoH's scripting engine to UE4 (Therefore making it so a great deal of things don't actually have to be rewritten), it would be a massive undertaking almost on par with making an entirely new game.

Even IF they manage to transplant the script, it's going to be a lot of work.

Teikiatsu

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Re: And the mask comes off
« Reply #3475 on: October 06, 2014, 11:50:31 PM »
Though I get the feeling there were more people playing then you probably think Arcana, I agree with all the other points.  Incarnate content was designed to maximize and maintain maximum replayability.  Just increasing the level cap to 60 would have not only invalidated level 50 builds but also not increase replayability any, only decrease it I feel.  It was made such that existing level 50 content wouldn't be made to easy just due to the fact that a level 60 would not be challenged nore be able to fully enjoy level 50 stuff anymore.  So incarnate content was designed to maximize bang for the buck, it expanded end-game options and added new options for character customization, and gave more things to do without making everything at level 50 something you can no longer do.

I do still wonder what the end game was for Incarnate.  We've established that the powers were only usable for L45+.  Once all the Incarnate levels were gained, what then?

That meant actual content where it was usable was in PI, RWZ, the Shard, Grandville, RV, and DA if I counted right.  Toss in AE, Alignment and Scanner missions.

Were you supposed to solo that content afterwards?  Just keep running the trials?  Solo AVs, GMs, Hamidon?  New zones?  New arcs?
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LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off
« Reply #3476 on: October 07, 2014, 12:44:32 AM »
I do still wonder what the end game was for Incarnate.  We've established that the powers were only usable for L45+.  Once all the Incarnate levels were gained, what then?

That meant actual content where it was usable was in PI, RWZ, the Shard, Grandville, RV, and DA if I counted right.  Toss in AE, Alignment and Scanner missions.

Were you supposed to solo that content afterwards?  Just keep running the trials?  Solo AVs, GMs, Hamidon?  New zones?  New arcs?

Thats what I wonder as well.  I suspect they wanted to move towards CoH 2 at around that time.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

HEATSTROKE

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Re: And the mask comes off
« Reply #3477 on: October 07, 2014, 01:36:35 AM »
Speaking for myself, mostly because I didn't find it incongruent.  To me, there's a very straight line you can draw from the L1-50 game which is about power progression, through the invention system which is about enhancement progression, to the incarnate system that is about a higher level hybrid of that.

Now, in terms of the incarnate *content*, it did start off as a large scale raid system, but they were adding other content to it, and if anything it was a far superior experience in my opinion to the original raid system - Hamidon.  It wasn't too dissimilar from, and could be seen as an extension of, zone events, mothership raids, and other larger scale content.

Its also fair to say that the incarnate raid content added something for players who wanted something larger scale than the 4-8 task force system, so in a sense it was also an extension of the task force/strike force system.


You say that like those were two different exclusive groups of players.


That was not my understanding.  In terms of overall percentages, it was probably not high, but that's because most players did not have level 50 players: it took a lot more investment in time than most players appreciated to get a character to 50, and all the end game systems were targeted at them.  In terms of players who had at least one level 50, I think the percentage was probably reasonable.  Particularly if you include all players that at least possessed a slotted Alpha power, which was usable outside of iTrials.

So here's the thing.  There was nothing preventing the devs from raising the level cap.  I'm not sure why you think the gamecode was "hostile" to that, except that I think you think that would have been a good idea.

It would have been a terrible idea.  There's no specific reason to raise the level cap of a game unless your intent is to *stratify* the players at the cap.  A level 50 has content available to her that a level 40 doesn't (barring sidekicking into it).  Levels are *gates* in game design, and you add more when you want to add more gates.  City of Heroes didn't need more content gates, because it didn't have enough players to justify more stratification at the top.  Moreover, the players that did reach the cap had spent a long time there and had built up their characters to exist at the cap through builds and inventions: raising the cap would simply force them to restart those builds from scratch.

The incarnate system was not in my opinion a "compromise" in this sense.  It was actually the correct target to aim for.  Rather than adding more "levels" to the game the Incarnate system created a way to advance through gaining powers and abilities without having to invalidate level 50 builds.  Furthermore, much of that heightened ability was *only* usable in the end game content.  That made it a completely optional enhancement to the game.  Had the devs created (all) incarnate abilities that could be used everywhere, they would have started a chain reaction of power creep where they would have to rebalance PvE content for stronger players - but that would leave non-incarnates behind. 

The fact that some players said they didn't like it and thus did not participate is part of the strength of the system: even moreso than the invention system it could be safely ignored for those that did not want to participate.  If you didn't participate in the invention system, you'd quickly notice the massive strength difference between you and your fellow players in teamed content.  But except for the benefits of Alpha which were not as noticeable, you wouldn't notice a strong difference between you and your incarnate brethren in teamed content outside of the iTrials.

When the invention system was introduced in I9, there was a deliberate intent for it to affect the entire game.  It was technically optional, but the design intent was to essentially replace the standard enhancement system with something better.  It was designed to change the entire game, and it did for those that paid even a small amount of attention to it.  The incarnate system was designed with the opposite intent: to disrupt the conventional game as little as possible, and in that it mostly succeeded.  Changes like restructuring power sets or adding powers and slots or raising the level cap all disrupt the convention game in many ways subtle and not so subtle.  The devs didn't avoid doing those things because they couldn't, they avoided them because they were all bad ideas if you wanted to preserve the L1-50 environment while simultaneously introducing very powerful character progression content.


I should also express my opinion that "most of us" is a phrase to be used sparingly, and only with unimpeachable justification.  I'm generally not comfortable doing it, and I don't think anyone else should either.
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Re: And the mask comes off
« Reply #3478 on: October 07, 2014, 03:21:09 AM »
I do still wonder what the end game was for Incarnate.

I think the answer to that question is similar to the answer to the question "what was the end game for the entire game?"  The answer is: the devs didn't have an "end" to their end game plans.

"End game" as an MMO term is a bit of a misnomer in that its not about an "end."  The "end" in endgame refers to the point where conventional level-gating (cf: level cap) ends and content switches from being about getting through the next content gate and starts being about more open ended (if often grindy) development.

What I think was interesting about CoH's "end game" was that it wasn't, in spite of complaints to the contrary, focused purely on raiding.  The initial content was large scale raids, but that was because we didn't have any yet and this was when they were going to be introduced.  But the revamp of Dark Astoria suggested that the incarnate system was going to be a more seamless expansion of the standard content, with zone content, mission content, and task force content to complement the raid content. 

This ventures into a subject I spent a lot of time kicking around on the old forums: what constituted the "core" game and what constituted the "optional" game.  You could argue that the Incarnate system was evolving into Yet Another non-core gameplay mode.  The standard game was the conventional content-based (usually) leveling from 1 to 50, with the associated power and enhancement progression.  The incarnate system as a whole was developing from a raid niche to a more full-fledged game experience with a range of content driven by the core incarnate power system and the raids as a strong core component of progression.

Of course, many people who disliked raiding and disliked the incarnate progressional power system felt that time spent developing it was time diverted from the rest of the game, and player time spent on it diverted players from contributing to the rest of the game.  Both true statements, but also entirely in keeping with the philosophy I subscribed to and generally ascribed to the devs as "something for everyone, not everything for someone."  Part of acknowledging the fact that CoH allowed for diverse playstyles is that it often encouraged and spent valuable dev time on ones you might dislike yourself personally.  I think eventually the great irony of the Incarnate system is that the very players that were complaining about the fact that it was about nothing but raiding would eventually be complaining about the fact that there was all this other stuff happening in it they couldn't experience because they didn't want to participate in the incarnate system.

Optional isn't synonymous with undesirable.

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Re: And the mask comes off
« Reply #3479 on: October 07, 2014, 04:05:23 AM »
I think the answer to that question is similar to the answer to the question "what was the end game for the entire game?"  The answer is: the devs didn't have an "end" to their end game plans.

Optional isn't synonymous with undesirable.

As far as I could tell it was "Hey, you've made your toon the highest level incarnate possible.  Just like when you make a pre-incarnate L50 in the past, it's time to make a new alt" :)
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