Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1749829 times)

epawtows

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3000 on: September 25, 2014, 06:40:21 AM »
And lots of issues with adapting all our in-house written software to work with a new OS (trust me, you CAN'T get a COTS application that can check drawings for 787 part assemblies).


Ankhammon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3001 on: September 25, 2014, 06:44:32 AM »
Our own IT department are currently rolling out Windows 8 across the network.  Almost -EVERYONE- is complaining about it, but at least they have a very very good reason.  We do a lot of client side support for our customers that requires that we connect to their systems, so we use VM's for that so that the VPN's they make us use don't disconnect us from -our- network.  Windows 8's Hyper-V has a huge bug in that it only supports 4:3 resolution screens, which is BLOODY ANNOYING when we all have dual 24" widescreen monitors, and they won't let us install any 3rd party VM solutions!

Why oh why they're not going straight to 8.1, where that problem is fixed, is beyond everyone's comprehension, and IT ain't sayin'... :/

Sounds like big bidness to me.
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Shadowe

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3002 on: September 25, 2014, 07:20:37 AM »
I work for an international finance organisation (big company), and I think we might have finished our Win7 rollout, now. As in, I got my Win7 PC last week. And I was the last person on our floor of the building to get it.

Weird, since I was meant to be one of the first wave, to test it. But that's a different story.

The problem isn't the OS. The problem is the eleventy-five legacy software applications that break in a new OS, but are absolutely essential to the running of a finance organisation that keeps customer data going back in excess of 40 years, and keeps it on the same ancient software it was first put on, because moving that data with an absolute guarantee of no loss of information would... well, it costs. Far more than moving to a new OS and writing a new front-end.

Heck, we had a weird problem with a software upgrade (before the Win7 rollout) that completely nuked another (business essential) application. Nuked to the level of "it's cheaper to drop a second base unit without the update and set up a KVM switch for all of our users than it is to fix this".

Business is weird, sometimes.
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Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3003 on: September 25, 2014, 09:39:53 AM »
None of that, however, alters one bit the sheer damage done to their rep by the media.  The Vista issues were ridiculously overblown by the media, causing damage so bad that MS were forced to dump it and launch Windows 7, even though there is very little actual difference between it and Vista SP1.  What we have in 7 would have been another Vista service pack if the name itself hadn't been irreparably damaged.

Essentially the same is happening to Windows 8, too.  It has a few problems sure, but those are once again being ridiculously overblown by the media, forcing MS to abandon it and move to 9, even though once again the differences are minimal. So much so that the rumours are 9 will be either a free or very low cost upgrade to 8.

Its debateable whether the differences are minimal, but what is provably true is that the media is following sentiment, not driving it.  To the extent the media is emphasizing the problems with Windows 8 (and emphasized with Vista) they are echoing general sentiment, not creating it.  Media support for Windows 8 ran 10:1 in favor of it at launch, and that shifted over time to the point of overwhelmingly acknowledging the problems with it only when the number of people voicing those concerns only increased over time.

If the media simply didn't cover Windows at all, neither for nor against, Microsoft would still be facing an extremely large backlash against Windows 8. The only difference is that only Microsoft would be sure just how large it was.

Its true that ultimately Microsoft could have addressed the issues in Vista with continued service packs and primarily introduced Windows 7 to repair the damage to the Windows brand done by Vista.  But that was a purely self-inflicted wound: Vista's security model was itself a reactionary response to Microsoft's belief that the Windows brand was being tarnished by the increased visibility of security issues associated with Windows.  They attempted to address those with no deference to useability.  That's always a self-inflicted wound, and they always deserve whatever backlash they get when they do that (as does every other company that makes that error).

How damaging a problem is isn't measured by how difficult it is to fix.  Problems can be extremely damaging and yet resolvable by patches that intrinsically don't do much.  No one is forcing Microsoft to call Windows 8.2 Windows 9; that's their call.  What people want is those problems fixed.  That they don't take much effort to fix makes the problems all the more galling, not retrospectively trivial.  That Microsoft can dodge the negativity caused by their own design errors by simply changing the name of the product is a situation I consider a plus to Microsoft, not a minus.  You can't argue Microsoft is being forced to abandon Windows 8 and yet releasing a successor product that is basically just like it.  That means Microsoft isn't being forced to abandon Windows 8, they are trying to convince people Windows 8.2 shouldn't be judged based on the user experience of Windows 8, but starting with a clean slate by calling it Windows 9.  To the extent that's false, that's false in Microsoft's favor.  Nobody's forcing them to do that.

Quote
If people are going to vilify Microsoft for something, do it for the bad things they've deliberately done, rather than the mistakes they've made.

They originally doubled down on their "mistake" to make the metro interface mandatory and default.  They only backed down when they began to realize that the backlash against that decision wasn't as a lot of people characterized it just media driven.  If it was media driven, it would have gone away within a year.  It was getting worse over time, and costing them a ton of OS sales and deployments.  It was snowballing on them in a lot of ways the media didn't cover a lot, specifically in their channel.  Microsoft is actually pretty good about defending their channel, and particularly their stronger MSPs.  Windows 8 was flat-out damaging them, and that made the situation untenable.

If Microsoft had said "oops our bad, we'll make Metro optional" when it became clear that was a design error, nobody would be talking about this now.  Its been two years and only recently has Microsoft come even close to admitting that was a mistake (technically, Microsoft has never admitted that officially; only the known features of Windows 9 make that case).

In any event, to the extent that media coverage compelled Microsoft to act sooner rather than later, I say its a pretty good use for tech media, which rarely has all that much of an impact generally.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3004 on: September 25, 2014, 09:44:42 AM »
Our own IT department are currently rolling out Windows 8 across the network.  Almost -EVERYONE- is complaining about it, but at least they have a very very good reason.  We do a lot of client side support for our customers that requires that we connect to their systems, so we use VM's for that so that the VPN's they make us use don't disconnect us from -our- network.  Windows 8's Hyper-V has a huge bug in that it only supports 4:3 resolution screens, which is BLOODY ANNOYING when we all have dual 24" widescreen monitors, and they won't let us install any 3rd party VM solutions!

Why oh why they're not going straight to 8.1, where that problem is fixed, is beyond everyone's comprehension, and IT ain't sayin'... :/

Its a crazy solution, but I ran into a similar issue once and the way I resolved it was to run the VM minimized, and then RDP into the VM and let the remote desktop client resize a terminal services screen rather than the hardware VM screen.  I don't know if that will work in this case, but its worth trying.

Von Krieger

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3005 on: September 25, 2014, 10:21:39 AM »


Long time defender of Russia, General Winter, I presume?

thunderforce

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3006 on: September 25, 2014, 10:55:22 AM »
Wise choice.  The learning curve from XP isn't that hard.  Going to Win8 from XP is like stepping sideways into some weird parallel dimension.

Particularly, I used to configure XP to look generally like the old familiar ugly '95 interface rather than the new unfamiliar ugly XP interface. I was pleased to find Win 7 can be configured quite readily to the still-familiar ugly '95 interface rather than the old unfamiliar ugly XP interface or the new unfamiliar ugly Win 7 interface.

I'm still happier on a real computer with an actual choice of window managers, but what can one do for videogames, eh?

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3007 on: September 25, 2014, 11:10:51 AM »
Media support for Windows 8 ran 10:1 in favor of it at launch, and that shifted over time to the point of overwhelmingly acknowledging the problems with it only when the number of people voicing those concerns only increased over time.

Going to have to disagree with you here. Pretty much all the tech media I saw prior to W8's official launch were absolutely slating its UI and generally taking a massive dump on the whole thing, just as much as they did to Vista, too.

Perhaps you were looking at different tech media to me! :p

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3008 on: September 25, 2014, 11:12:06 AM »
Its a crazy solution, but I ran into a similar issue once and the way I resolved it was to run the VM minimized, and then RDP into the VM and let the remote desktop client resize a terminal services screen rather than the hardware VM screen.  I don't know if that will work in this case, but its worth trying.

RDP works fine, but it really kills performance, and when you're having to connect to slow client VPN's, having a sluggish VM on top of that isn't what you really want.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3009 on: September 25, 2014, 11:13:05 AM »
Particularly, I used to configure XP to look generally like the old familiar ugly '95 interface rather than the new unfamiliar ugly XP interface. I was pleased to find Win 7 can be configured quite readily to the still-familiar ugly '95 interface rather than the old unfamiliar ugly XP interface or the new unfamiliar ugly Win 7 interface.

I'm still happier on a real computer with an actual choice of window managers, but what can one do for videogames, eh?

Did you make Win 95 look like Win 3.1, too? :p

Medispider Reznov

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3010 on: September 25, 2014, 11:25:53 AM »
I don't plan on vilifying anyone, I just go by the rule of thumb of "everything is shit until proven otherwise" Windows 7 proved to not be shit, Windows 8 failed to do so - if Windows 9 dose as 7 or 8, my decision will be based on that.

Nalerenn

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3011 on: September 25, 2014, 11:30:26 AM »
Long time defender of Russia, General Winter, I presume?
I would've said Cold War personally. Or maybe Nuclear Winter...

Clave Dark 5

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3012 on: September 25, 2014, 12:58:56 PM »
Is it possible to create a panda hero in Icon?  I know it's in bad taste...but...if WoW can do it...


I haven't played around with Icon, but I used to make them all the time when the game was live. 

I think this one was my DP blaster; she has an eye patch (because I thought it would be funny for a ranged fighter to lack depth perception), but you can see how the costume creator can indeed make pandas.  I think I had six or seven variations on the panda theme by the end.  I had started doing them before Blizzard made them a 'thing' so if the game does come back, I might have to find something else.  Like tigers...

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thunderforce

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3013 on: September 25, 2014, 02:09:19 PM »
Did you make Win 95 look like Win 3.1, too? :p

No, but I was tempted. Given a choice of ugly interfaces, I'd rather have the devil I know.

Codewalker

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3014 on: September 25, 2014, 02:12:56 PM »
Particularly, I used to configure XP to look generally like the old familiar ugly '95 interface rather than the new unfamiliar ugly XP interface. I was pleased to find Win 7 can be configured quite readily to the still-familiar ugly '95 interface rather than the old unfamiliar ugly XP interface or the new unfamiliar ugly Win 7 interface.

I'm still happier on a real computer with an actual choice of window managers, but what can one do for videogames, eh?

The Windows 8 look is much uglier to me than the Windows 7 (Aero) or 2000 (Classic) interfaces. Maybe not quite as ugly as the default XP preschool theme, but at least XP gave you the option to change it to classic. What annoys me about Windows 8 is that they took out all window themes except for the ugly new one. I can make it mostly bearable with registry hacks or third party tools to shrink the oversized window borders, but it still looks bad to me.

I'm sure some people love it, and that's fine. What I find rather galling is for Microsoft to assume their One True Theme is what everybody wants. Options! We want options! Taking away choices because users can't be trusted to think for themselves is supposed to be Apple's niche...

Also, bringing up a full-screen UI to launch a program (even in 8.1!) and hidden corner/side hot spots to access important things are both terrible paradigms to use through a windowed remote desktop session. It's probably the sole reason we're sticking with Server 2008R2 at work -- it's that bad to try to admin a 2012 server across a slow link. We're doing what a lot of businesses are and skipping this cycle like we skipped Vista/2008 RTM. Good thing enterprise support is good through 2020.

Scendera

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3015 on: September 25, 2014, 04:29:21 PM »
None of that, however, alters one bit the sheer damage done to their rep by the media.  The Vista issues were ridiculously overblown by the media, causing damage so bad that MS were forced to dump it and launch Windows 7, even though there is very little actual difference between it and Vista SP1.  What we have in 7 would have been another Vista service pack if the name itself hadn't been irreparably damaged.

I have to agree. I used Vista SP1 til December of last year or so, and frankly, liked it just fine. The primary reason I upgraded to 7 was that I added a second hard drive, and it made more sense to futureproof a couple extra years in.

The search on the menu is pretty damned awesome, the removing of some of the taskbar options considerably less so, at least for EQ2, and beyond those two things I've honestly noticed very little difference. The machine performs pretty much like always...rock solid, as fast as you'd expect from a 7 year old cpu.

I'll most likely be on 7 til the hdd karks it AND there's a stable, fast option that does what I want available. If I have to replace the hdd before that happens, I'll be going back to 7 til it no longer safely does what I use it for...in the case of that machine, playing games and watching stuff.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3016 on: September 25, 2014, 05:53:27 PM »
RDP works fine, but it really kills performance, and when you're having to connect to slow client VPN's, having a sluggish VM on top of that isn't what you really want.

That's odd.  I haven't had that problem with RDP myself logging into local VMs.  Perhaps there's a latency issue on the bridge network on Win8's Hyper-V.  I'll have to test that at some point: I don't recall any changes to that in 8.1, so it might still be an issue.

adarict

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3017 on: September 25, 2014, 06:03:15 PM »
None of that, however, alters one bit the sheer damage done to their rep by the media.  The Vista issues were ridiculously overblown by the media, causing damage so bad that MS were forced to dump it and launch Windows 7, even though there is very little actual difference between it and Vista SP1.

Actually, a bit of clarification.  That comment is incorrect for a significant portion of the userbase for Vista Pre-SP1.  Ignoring the numerous incompatibility problems, which were mostly self inflicted by software developers not making the necessary changes ahead of the release of Vista when they had plenty of time to do so, there were a number of SERIOUS problems with Vista at release.  The network stack was absolutely terrible.  Worked fine for most internet things, but if you needed to actually use a LAN, the file copy performance was orders of magnitude slower than the identical hardware running XP.  There were also serious issues with power management, as in blue screens if you allowed the machine to sleep or hibernate.  There were also issues with multitasking performance, though the only people that usually ran into that, were ones that were running on the edge of the minimum requirements for what they were doing.

To be fair, these issues did NOT affect everyone.  The power management item ended up being a problem with the USB Host adapter driver.  It was TECHNICALLY the fault of manufacturers, but it was the Microsoft installed driver that caused the problem.  I know that there were a number of people who had zero issues.  I spent a LOT of time, both in my work, as well as messing with CoH, trying to overcome any number of issues on Vista.  I also had two identical  (as much as that is possible) Inspiron Laptops that were purchased at the same time.  One of them Installed a fresh copy of Vista, and ran like a champ.  The other was continually plagued by poor overall performance.  Both laptops had the same BIOS, and were configured the same way from a hardware perspective.  Both were installed with Vista Ultimate using the same options.

Vista SP1 was practically a quantum leap over the initial release of Vista, at least for a good number of people.  Part of my job is software QA, and I spent months and months doing hardware and software certifications on Vista for every North American and EU SKU, on literally hundreds of physical machines.  I did those same certifications again when SP1 came out.  There was significant improvement in just about every single area.

Basically, what killed Vista was NOT simply media bias.  There were actual problems with Vista at release that drove that negative press.  Did the press still blow it out of proportion?  Probably.  I mean, most of the items had fixes and/or workarounds shortly after release.  those fixes and workarounds though, don't help the people who are not technically proficient or comfortable messing with their machines.  For those people, as far as they were concerned, Vista just made everything more painful.

Oh, and I ran Vista on my personal machines right up until Windows 7 was released.  I had planned on holding off on Win7 until it had longer in the wild, but I had been running the betas for a long time, and was impressed enough that I didn't bother to wait.  I would agree that Windows 7 in many ways, was just Windows Vista done right.  I think that is what Windows 9 will be as well. 

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3018 on: September 25, 2014, 06:06:27 PM »
Also, bringing up a full-screen UI to launch a program (even in 8.1!) and hidden corner/side hot spots to access important things are both terrible paradigms to use through a windowed remote desktop session. It's probably the sole reason we're sticking with Server 2008R2 at work -- it's that bad to try to admin a 2012 server across a slow link.

Someone told me you can just powershell everything, so I had to kill him.

There are other interesting oddities to Server 2012.  For example, terminal services will work fine without a license, for about six months.  Then it will warn you to put the license in.  Interestingly, there are configuration modes that only work without a license in evaluation mode, and won't work in licensed mode, which can make life interesting when you're first starting to spin those up.

Pep Rally

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #3019 on: September 25, 2014, 06:08:22 PM »
I don't plan on vilifying anyone, I just go by the rule of thumb of "everything is pancake until proven otherwise" Windows 7 proved to not be pancake, Windows 8 failed to do so - if Windows 9 dose as 7 or 8, my decision will be based on that.


When did pancakes become a bad thing? I love pancakes. Especially blueberry ones.