(Mr. Burns) Excellent! (/Mr. Burns) 8)
Is there any particular reason why there hasn't been a call for another of those Unity Protests?
Or to borrow a Captain Jack Sparrow line -
Are we simply waiting for "the opportune moment"?
Just to point out something *slightly* related here...
Apple stock has dropped quite a bit since the launch of the iPhone 5.
It is a good phone, it has some issues (same as the iPhone 4S. It sold a boat load (although apparently not as much as investors were thinking). Why is the apple stock price falling?
Side note: even "antennagate" for the iPhone4 didn't drop share prices by this large amounr....
Hmm. Folks, anyone got an address for Nexxon? Their big money-maker is Maple Story. I could make the case CoH functioned rather like Maple Story for many of the players (the RPers specifically) with the rich ability to social-network within the game itself. We might be able to do a back-door on NCSoft via Nexxon.This is something that would be interesting, especially since the "in game advertisement" thread has gotten me thinking of ways that CoH could have an entire pure-social side opened up that would also make in-game advertising almost a DRAW for new players just interested in a more interactive online environment. With superheroes.
This is something that would be interesting, especially since the "in game advertisement" thread has gotten me thinking of ways that CoH could have an entire pure-social side opened up that would also make in-game advertising almost a DRAW for new players just interested in a more interactive online environment. With superheroes.
This is something that would be interesting, especially since the "in game advertisement" thread has gotten me thinking of ways that CoH could have an entire pure-social side opened up that would also make in-game advertising almost a DRAW for new players just interested in a more interactive online environment. With superheroes.
Well it would be marginally better than a shutdown (and give us more time to code our own game and the means to port our toons into it.) What I had in mind is that Maple Story's success is due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking. Some, at least, of CoH's success--and I suspect what brings ALL of us to the table here--was due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking. CoH obviously did it in a much more palatable way. If we could squeeze another two years out of CoH, I think Codewalker and the others might have a new ship to jump to.
Well it would be marginally better than a shutdown (and give us more time to code our own game and the means to port our toons into it.) What I had in mind is that Maple Story's success is due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking. Some, at least, of CoH's success--and I suspect what brings ALL of us to the table here--was due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking. CoH obviously did it in a much more palatable way. If we could squeeze another two years out of CoH, I think Codewalker and the others might have a new ship to jump to.
Talking about "squeezing a year out of CoH" so we have longer to backwards engineer the game and start a competing firm isn't necessarily a good way to ensure potential CoH investors the IP and the aging engine is a good long term investment. If they take the IP for say 20 million US Dollars you're looking at a 10-20 year span needed at current sales to recover that cost. Even if its 2 million for the IP it'll take almost 2 years before the game turns a profit.
So unless NCSoft charities the IP to somebody we're going to need to show we'll support this game for the long run, not just make our own. Even if they use the IP to make CoX-2 they're going to need to see our support for that too rather than "Thanks I got your code, see you suckers later!", as our message.
Good point osborn,
By the same token, we need guarentees not to get utterly screwed ever again. The smart company would save the IP an then partner with the community to deveop a COH2 that we would migrate to enmass.
Talking about "squeezing a year out of CoH" so we have longer to backwards engineer the game and start a competing firm isn't necessarily a good way to ensure potential CoH investors the IP and the aging engine is a good long term investment. If they take the IP for say 20 million US Dollars you're looking at a 10-20 year span needed at current sales to recover that cost. Even if its 2 million for the IP it'll take almost 2 years before the game turns a profit.Save CoH has revenues of ~$10 million a year. In the $800/month revenue thread we discussed what was needed to run CoH, and it came to under $2 million a year, which means it would take 5 quarters to turn a profit if it is $10 million, or 10 quarters if $20. Alternatively, forgoing immediate profits to instead use Paragon as a self-funding development studio would mean a much higher return at the 2 year mark, as a new title such as CoH2 comes out.
NCsoft is sinking so nicely...its almost TITANic.
Save CoH has revenues of ~$10 million a year. In the $800/month revenue thread we discussed what was needed to run CoH, and it came to under $2 million a year, which means it would take 5 quarters to turn a profit if it is $10 million, or 10 quarters if $20. Alternatively, forgoing immediate profits to instead use Paragon as a self-funding development studio would mean a much higher return at the 2 year mark, as a new title such as CoH2 comes out.Given my own personal interest in this whole project, I do hope to see it become a self-sustaining development environment. I want to develop and test something for which an MMO is the ideal initial environment...
CoX hit that market perfectly, but I never did think they actually realized just how many sub-markets they could appeal to, nor did they really try.
So what IS their stock doing? How can I check? Where do I go to check?
Thanks in advance for the info.
I've never seen so many people be all "oh we are so ollld!" as in City. I don't mean that in a bad way, though. I've also never seen another game with so many couples and people who blend playing with their other responsibilities, and/or team with their kids. I've been pretty convinced for a while that the strength of the City community reflects its success in attracting and retaining that audience.Yeah.
Do a quick google search for NCSoft stock ticker... on Bloomberg Businessweek, the link is
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=036570:KS
Personally I consider a potential goal of the intellectual property only a non-goal. The IP has little relation to why the game is fun or why it attracted the audience it did.The goal in "buying the IP" is generally to keep the game running more or less as-is. That is, same general mechanics and such. It will obviously change as it has over the years to date, but this is a "preferred" option because it's basically continuing the game onwards.
If it was a choice of buy the game and rent the IP, versus IP, I say the game is a greater priority by far.
They've been going up ever since the 2nd. :roll:True - but they're still over 9% down on what they were exactly a month ago.
lower then expected return on recently releases or other factors are probably a major factor.
Didn't we contribute to that, too, by letting others know how NCsoft does business?I can't speak for anyone else, but thinking that what we have done so far may have helped the nosedive helps deal with this situation a little.
I can't speak for anyone else, but thinking that what we have done so far may have helped the nosedive helps deal with this situation a little.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.fragglerockforever.com%2FCoX%2Fncstocks.jpg)
If I was part of this company, I'd be horrified! Our customers hope we fail, keep up with our stock and cheer when it drops, make fun of our latest products and distribute mocking images online. I can't imagine a more dreadful situation. And it's an entertainment company?
Need to update that graphic to include the huge dip immediately after all the events and press coverage after double XP weekend. :D
This was just posted up on the Save CoH facebook group. An estimate of where NCSoft's stocks might be had they not closed the game. The poster does say the graph may be off since the figures don't start from zero.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.lukasmattsson.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F10%2FNcSoft-stocks.png)
The graph has no bearing on reality. For example, the mid-September drop was most likely due to the loss of personal data of 5 million Japanese customers which the graph completely ignores.
Whoa... 5 Million??? I hadn't heard about this! Where's this info come from?
This is exactly what "Maple Story", which is what Nexxon's big win, is. It's a 2D MMORPG integrated with social networking. Maybe we ought to be working on Nexxon.
Min Kim said he sees a big opportunity lying ahead in the traditional games space, where people play games for years at a time and for long stretches every month.
It's a puzzle - one for which, I'm afraid, we are missing several pieces - pieces that are in corporate hands, beyond our reach.
it sounds like they caught themselves in a downward spiral if things start to go badly for them
its like they were playing with a tower of cards, knock out one card and the whole thing can tumble down
If that's the case, then...
(Mr. Burns) EXcellent! (/Mr. Burns)
The more they hurt, the more they'll think about actually selling off assets. And the ONE asset that's likely causing them the MOST problems right now is City of Heroes.
HAMMER DOWN people! Ramp up the NOISE!!!
That's true, but I wouldn't get too excited about it. Just look at the 6 month and 1/2 year graphs. NCSoft's stock price is fairly cyclical, climbing sharply when they release new games and then dropping back down shortly after.
How many times can they launch a flop and actually keep investors fooled?As many times as they can fool investors with their own press releases, unfortunately. Our goal, then, is to wake them up with information of our own, pointing out the history of failure. If we keep twisting the knife hard enough, NCsoft's eventually gotta scream.
Drums in the Deep.
We are coming.
^_^
Hold your ground, hold your ground!
Sons of Paragon, of the Isles, my brothers!
I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of heroes fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day.
An hour of woes and shattered shields, when the age of heroes comes crashing down!
But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you *stand, Heroes of the City!
They're destroying my world. I aim to misbehave.
They're destroying my world. I aim to misbehave.
They're destroying my world. I aim to misbehave.Most definitely!
Just did a search for "NCSoft shares" on Google to see if any of our pages come up, and this thread was the first to pop up. Bottom of the third page. :)The way to get our stuff come up on the first page is to link to it every chance you get. Your blog, facebook, anyplace you can post to, comments sections on Massively and other gaming sites. Link to the posts on www.cccpgroup.us; the front page is ALL NCSoft criticism now and will remain so, but the only way for it to become visible is for links to be made to it.
Indeed.
To be truthful, I hold no qualms about buying NCSoft.
I have phrased it that way for a particular reason.
I believe you termed it 'Corporate Vikingry'?
Might be a much shorter term plan if we could manage to dip the price of shares to 100 Yuan with our actions.
Mind, that would be a...400% decrease in the stock price? Methinks we would need a front page story on CNN to do that.
Are you perhaps implying what I suspect you may be implying, dear wordsmith?
^_^
I think it would be even bigger than CNN than you think. It would possibly be (in the game world sense) something on the scale of the Libor rate fiddling that Barclays did. Yep, for you to drop it *that* much (especially when it is trading at above 200,000 yen right now), to get it down to 100 KRW, they would have to be dealing in something *seriously* illegal.
Actually, yen is the Japanese currency, the Korean currency is the Won. NCSoft is currently trading at the equivalent of ~15000 yen.
To be more useful, that's about $187.45 CDN, or $187 US. Give or take a few cents for exchange rates.
Oh, and by 'illegal', do we mean something along the lines of forging a letter, or otherwise presenting falsehood as fact?
Depends. If you are talking about Tabula Rasa, that is "old news". If you are talking about something brand new, especially once we can cite Tabula Rasa and point out it out as showing a history of deception...well now you are talking.Hmm. We should probably try to get in touch with ex-Paragon Studios folks then. If anyone would have that kind of ammo against NC, it'd likely be them. After all, unless someone knows something I don't, we've already discussed their behavior towards their customers, and apparently their habit of revaluing the worth of their IPs to justify their stock prices isn't enough.
Hmm. We should probably try to get in touch with ex-Paragon Studios folks then. If anyone would have that kind of ammo against NC, it'd likely be them. After all, unless someone knows something I don't, we've already discussed their behavior towards their customers, and apparently their habit of revaluing the worth of their IPs to justify their stock prices isn't enough.
Now, if NC acted in bad faith towards their employees when Paragon Studios was closed & gutted, well... that would be a big bullet for our guns, wouldn't it?
Alas, no, except in that we need a MUCH higher level of visibility than we have. I don't think it's out of the question to actually get it, but the odds are not in our favor, and NCSoft would have to be caught doing something seriously illegal.I'm not so sure. Sometimes being caught doing something unethical that is legal but stinks, is worse than being caught and punished for something illegal. With an illegal act, we kind of believe the courts and system will deal with it. With something unethical and stinky that a company can expect to get away with, we all know it is up to us to bring about a change, and to make the transition from what is legal, to what is just.
Funny, I thought more or less plotting the downfall of an entire corporation would bother my sense of ethics.Well, it's kinda like plotting the downfall of an evil empire. Your sense of ethics wouldn't be bothered if someone kicked Lord Recluse out of the Rogue Isles and turned the place into a haven of civil liberty under the rule of just laws, would you? Same idea, different target.
Well, it's kinda like plotting the downfall of an evil empire. Your sense of ethics wouldn't be bothered if someone kicked Lord Recluse out of the Rogue Isles and turned the place into a haven of civil liberty under the rule of just laws, would you? Same idea, different target.
We want NCsoft to relinquish CoH to a sufficient degree that someone else can manage it more responsibly. Until then, we must continually give their PR department fits and reveal the terrifying truth to their shareholders. This must continue until NC's willing to relent and play ball, or they collapse under the weight of their own unethical behavior.
Either way, I'd be content.
I think my problem stems from trying to be Lawful Good in a Chaotic Neutral world.Look at this guy, calling that a problem. That's a good joke there, Mentalshock.
I think my problem stems from trying to be Lawful Good in a Chaotic Neutral world.
Psh. Chaotic Goods like me have all the fun, you know. Robin Hood, Oracle, Merlin...I'm in good company.Me, I strive for Neutral Good. I'm not sure how well I succeed. I know my image tends to be more "Comically Evil," but hey.
Well now, you have to remember that what is LEGAL and what is INTERESTING are two different things. For instance, apparently it is not fraudulent for NCSoft to value all their IPs together at about $3m for tax purposes, yet tell their stockholders that CoH itself is worth $80m. It's not fraudulent...but it's not ethical, and I bet their stockholders don't know that little tidbit of information. And that is the sort of thing they would find very difficult to explain to a CNN business reporter.
- the balance in the acocunt is not how much it's actually worthMy brain made this "the balance in the coconut." :)
My brain made this "the balance in the coconut." :)False, actually. Corporations are very much stopped by what's illegal. It costs a lot of money to cover things up and deal with problems that might come to light, so they generally try to follow the letter of the law (and spend a great deal of money doing it), because it's cheaper in the long run. While there ARE people who will break the law - and corporations are just groups of people acting under a unified name - generally speaking, it is incorrect to state that legality doesn't ever factor in to a corporation's decision-making process.
So, we can acknowledge a semantic difference between "value" and "worth," since NC Soft could be claiming a worth to investors based on attached assets and revenue? I'm not saying it's legal/illegal or ethical/unethical. That's never stopped a corporation from doing something. However, we don't need anything probative, just damning, in order to affect their image and stock prices.
Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.
I'm not so sure I'd consider it the best alignment. To me, Lawful Neutral means "blindly does what the law says without considering the ramifications of those actions and whether it's morally and ethically right."
I'm not so sure I'd consider it the best alignment. To me, Lawful Neutral means "blindly does what the law says without considering the ramifications of those actions and whether it's morally and ethically right."
Remember the law is made by humans and is subject to the same faults as the people who wrote it. Just because someone is in a position of authority doesn't mean that they deserve it. Lawful neutral characters in D&D are excellent cannon fodder for lawful evil to use for their purposes.
What this is really pointing out is that RPG alignment systems are of limited applicability to the real world. Can be fine in a game, because the rulebook can say *exactly* what they are supposed to mean.
I almost forgot, even after all of that, I definitely think $80 million is an absurd asking price for it, regardless of any other factor.This is really the crux of the matter, ain't it?
RPGs with alignment systems also have the conceit -- explicit or implicit -- that there are some actions that are objectively evil always, which the players know but the characters may themselves not know.Regarding the whole alignment debate... here. Have it straight from the Celestial's mouth.
(That, or you get things like whole chapters in Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness that read like jurisprudence texts. "Stealing bread is wrong... unless one is stealing to feed one's family. Unless one's family is evil. Unless for whatever reason they are being unjustly persecued even if evil. Unless they have been legitimately cursed. Unless that curse is levied by an evil church. Unless because ALIGNMENT, deal with it!" Argh. :gonk: )
Again, I think we need to pull back from the "$80 million" figure; unless we have definitive statements that NCSoft has valued it at that level, we are in danger of delegitimizing our position by quoting it as if it were factually something they'd claimed.Rather than pull back entirely, I think we should do some research. Y'know, get the real numbers. After all, the idea that they might be... 'massaging' the numbers they present to their stockholders is too good to just let go of. We just have to get more solid info behind it. Anyone have any idea where to begin looking for NCsoft's quotes of its value, both for tax purposes and shareholder purposes?
False, actually. Corporations are very much stopped by what's illegal.That's not true either. Legality, like ethics, is largely a non-issue to the modern corporation. They are concerned with cost versus benefit, and there are a huge number of companies that actively flout the law, where the penalty, of a few thousand, is a minor cost against the reward of hundreds of thousands. Further, there are companies who base their business on the unlikelihood of being convicted for practices that they do which deliberately and knowingly flaunt the law, but do so in a risk-managed way.
While lobbyists would kill it dead, I wish Congress here in the States at least would institute a law confiscating ALL proceeds from illegal activity.
That's not true either. Legality, like ethics, is largely a non-issue to the modern corporation. They are concerned with cost versus benefit, and there are a huge number of companies that actively flout the law, where the penalty, of a few thousand, is a minor cost against the reward of hundreds of thousands. Further, there are companies who base their business on the unlikelihood of being convicted for practices that they do which deliberately and knowingly flaunt the law, but do so in a risk-managed way.I work for a corporation that has very strict policies in place that prevent all sorts of activities on a large and on a single-employee scale precisely because we scrupulously follow the law. While you're right that there's a cost-benefits analysis involved, "jail time" is the cost of not following these laws, and so they're VERY careful about it.
I get illegal phone calls all the time, calls that ignore the laws on unsolicited sales calls, and even ignore the 'do not call' registrations, made from companies in territories that do not have those laws, but fully on behalf of companies here in my home country. This is an example of outright illegal activity that is circumvented with ease, knowing that the chances of actually being prosecuted are small.That's sad, but I am certain there are also companies that would make such calls were they legal that do not, as well. Perhaps you should start taking information down and see if you can't find enough others who are also receiving these calls to make those companies in violation find themselves in a few prominent "Action 2 News" type stories?
A lot of business operates in 'grey areas' of the law, despite the fact that there is no such thing. The law is either black or white. Grey areas are where there is a gap between the black of what is forbidden and the white of what is allowed that companies are able to slip their activity into.Technically, if something is not illegal, it is legal. There's no gray area, as you said. The black of what is forbidden is the only area that is not the white of what is allowed.
That would be the RICO Act - Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. Property acquired through illegal means can be seized.
Let's see...The "Garriot Letter" Appeared to have been settled without charges, but there's still the apparent overvaluing of IPs. What else?
Again, if the $80m is real and not something that somebody pulled out of their butt, being unreasonable in negotiations is not against the law. Neither is negotiating in bad faith if you don't intend to approve any deal. Petty and shortsighted, sure, but unfortunately there are no laws against being a douchebag.Hmm...
If they actually lied directly to their investors, those investors (not some third party) might have a case for fraud. But proving willful intent to mislead in such a case would be very, very difficult.
I work for a corporation that has very strict policies in place that prevent all sorts of activities on a large and on a single-employee scale precisely because we scrupulously follow the law.
What this is really pointing out is that RPG alignment systems are of limited applicability to the real world. Can be fine in a game, because the rulebook can say *exactly* what they are supposed to mean.It also points out one of the reasons I never really liked D&D.
Let me say I very recently got the $80 million figure from a third-party source I consider trustworthy, along with some other information that would probably send blood pressures soaring, but I need to get confirmation of that figure from the parties directly involved.
Let me say I very recently got the $80 million figure from a third-party source I consider trustworthy, along with some other information that would probably send blood pressures soaring, but I need to get confirmation of that figure from the parties directly involved.We also need to have confirmation of precisely what that $80 million was supposedly for. Was that to buy out the entire game, studio and staff as well? If so, that's pretty much in the ballpark I'd expected all along. If that is $80 million for just the intellectual property rights, no code, data, etc, then its a ridiculous valuation... but still $20 million less than one single branding TV ad campaign in the US alone. In other words, we still know we can stack the deck to make giving it away for goodwill and positive publicity cheaper than hanging on to it and repairing the PR damage.
We also need to have confirmation of precisely what that $80 million was supposedly for. Was that to buy out the entire game, studio and staff as well?
Just the IP, but without ridiculous strings being attached. Presumably would have to include the code, at least I would hope.It is utterly frustrating to not even know how to get in the know on things like that. It sounds fascinating.
I'm not sure if that includes the account database though. Fairly certain it doesn't include server hardware, and definitely doesn't include things like the office assets, desktop PCs, etc.
I don't know if we'll ever get the full details stated publicly, it depends if certain things that were trying to be forcibly enacted ended up happening or not.
It is utterly frustrating to not even know how to get in the know on things like that. It sounds fascinating.
Just the IP, but without ridiculous strings being attached. Presumably would have to include the code, at least I would hope.
I'm not sure if that includes the account database though. Fairly certain it doesn't include server hardware, and definitely doesn't include things like the office assets, desktop PCs, etc.
I don't know if we'll ever get the full details stated publicly, it depends if certain things that were trying to be forcibly enacted ended up happening or not.
For reasons I have explained before (but will reiterate here) 80 million for the IP and code is utterly ridiculous.If it in fact does include the code (not yet confirmed?), VV, that makes quite a difference. The code *is* the creative work and the license to publish it. In book terms, its like granting not only the rights to use the characters and settings, but also granting all the works to date and full publishing rights, along with royalties etc.
Now, from what I've seen and understood of the financial state of Paragon Studios and CoH, as a company it would likely (my opinion and estimate only) be valued at around $100 million as a complete business to takeover. Remember, that's isn't to make a profit for shareholders, that's it reasonable value, so to speak. In my professional opinion, anything lower than a value of around $50 million would be a complete insult.
I can tell you that I know (but cannot divulge my sources) that none of the offers made to NCsoft for CoH were anywhere near even half of that. Steam offered something like $3million plus some profit share. Imagine how such an offer as that must come across to a people whjo are known to be concerned about saving face and not insulting people. Wow. I wouldn't even speak to such insulting people either.
The other offers were all ridiculously low too.
That's not Steam's fault. To them, CoH is seen mostly as low-hanging fruit, able to be easily plucked. A game that is 8 yrs old, with small profits, in an ever-increasingly competitive market, and with a declining customer base. Oh, and during a recession.
Let me say I very recently got the $80 million figure from a third-party source I consider trustworthy, along with some other information that would probably send blood pressures soaring, but I need to get confirmation of that figure from the parties directly involved.
I have also received that same information.
and how little effort they put into understanding other marketsThat makes an assumption they put any effort into it. Does not seem to be the case. NCSoft is THE company with most MMO shutdowns under its' belt to date.
I don't think $80 million is really ridiculous or incredible if it includes all of the code (not least because that might include the code as is for i24 that was almost ready, so you are buying software with the big new update almost ready to launch). I think it is a high asking price, but an asking price is just that. It is only the opening move for negotiating the price down.
$80 million is extremely ridiculous, especially considering that the game is 8-1/2 years old. Just to put this in perspective, this is more than the budget of all but the biggest blockbuster movies that come out. Making a top-tier AAA brand new game would only run at most around $100 million; typically it actually costs much less. Don't be fooled, $80 million is a slap in the face, NCsoft's way of telling everyone who asks that they're not going to sell the game, and the fact that they later said that they had "exhausted all possibilities" in keeping the game alive is an insult to its players.
I can't prove this, though I hope that at some point others will come out publicly regarding this, but I've gotten from multiple reliable sources that several attempts at negotiating reasonable terms for sale--counteroffers to NCsoft's opening move--were attempted and rebuffed.
Alternately I can buy a game where someone already took all those early developmental risks, did the years of work, and launched it successfully, and strat taking money tomorrow.
SURELY, stakeholders could be persuaded that 80 million Dollars US is pie-in-the-sky & NOT a realistic price = and therefor this "we;ve exhausted all options is a crock of "stuff"
I also noticed that the S.Korean Government has like 9% of the NCsoft Stock (I think), maybe there's some possibility of leveraging that = what government is going to think sitting on IPs forever = while essentially killing-off most/any of the innate value they may possess (or might have have once possessed).
Optimistically, it might make $3 - $5 million per year, assuming that sales don't drop during that time.Let me say up front that in arguing with you, Tony, I in no way do not hold you in high regard and respect you. Quite the opposite. If I didn't respect you so much I'd not spend so much time on our discussion. :) However, I stil, respectfully, disagree, and I want to explain why.
Suppose it valued at $20 million then. That is $15 million lost to get something back that they could have just kept in the first place.Exactly right. Plus add in the thing that there are two sides of value. The value to the buyer, and the value to the seller, and they don't always coincide. That you can't see why NCsoft value CoH so high is going to be partly because that's the point. A company doesn't want all its strategies to be transparent and visible. They obviously do believe that CoH is more value to them by far than any offers made, but explaining why might only open the door to rivals hoping to exploit the same knowledge.
Let me say up front that in arguing with you, Tony, I in no way do not hold you in high regard and respect you. Quite the opposite. If I didn't respect you so much I'd not spend so much time on our discussion. :) However, I stil, respectfully, disagree, and I want to explain why.
I think a lot of the people pouring over the figures for NCsoft were estimating that CoH was generating between $3 million to $5 million a year in profit. So they agree with you here. But this neglects two major factors.
First is that Paragon was massively overstaffed with developers, many of whom were apparently working on new secret projects that were generating no revenue, and did not contribute to earnings for CoH. Lets imagine for a moment that all of the 80 devs were on pathetic wages of $25k a year, and that's $2 million just in the wages they take home, before factoring in taxes, pension contributions and the various other costs. In the companies I've been involved in we usually estimate it costs double the actual wage for each member of staff, so $4 million if all of those 80 developers were on a lowly wage of $25k a year. Cutting the developers working on new secret projects unrelated to CoH, reducing staff to levels needed to maintain and develop CoH directly, would most likely double the profit of CoH at a stroke, and very possibly more than double.
Second is that CoH was pretty poorly monetized generally. The in-game store was doing fairly well, but we all know it was still getting traction, and that much more could have been done with paid add-ons. The attempt to add an advertising based revenue stream was frankly bad, and doomed to fail from the start. Nothing was done with sponsorship, and merchandising (Mugs, Mouse-mats, Bags, Jackets, etc) was barely thought of. Usually, again, these kinds of revenue streams can double the overall profits.
In other words, proper marketing, not being dictated Korean style from a thousand miles away, could have easily had CoH earning at least $12 - 15 million in profit a year.
Let's face it, a huge part of our shock and surprise over the closure of CoH is because we all knew instinctively that it should be making good profit, and we'd all seen things NCsoft just didn't seem to see, or in some cases, actually dragged their heels over when the ideas came from Paragon itself.
NCsoft would have known precisely how much of the potential profit of CoH was being spent on staff, premises, and other expenses, and just how much of those expenses were effectively used in long-term investment rather than actually on keeping CoH profitable. If they are valuing the company high, there is probably reason for it, and not all of that reason will be ego. None of it will be unwillingness to sell at the right price. A board of directors isn't allowed to do that. They have to serve the interests of the shareholders, except occassionally where duty to the stakeholders may dictate taking a short-term loss to maintain a long-term position.
If you'd like some illustrations from other businesses, I'll happily share some, like how Amazon was losing billions of dollars a year in the early years to gain volume. Many who don't know such strategies compared their practices to selling dollar bills for 50 cents a shot and thinking that if they only sold enough of them they make a profit :). Fact is it got them the volume to negotiate deals from suppliers noone else matches. Amazon can now sell goods for a profit at less cost to the consumer than most stores can even buy the goods from the manufacturer. Such is the power of bulk discounts. Some very strange seeming practices are loss-leader tactics that make solid sense, even when outsiders don't see it.
Exactly right. Plus add in the thing that there are two sides of value. The value to the buyer, and the value to the seller, and they don't always coincide. That you can't see why NCsoft value CoH so high is going to be partly because that's the point. A company doesn't want all its strategies to be transparent and visible. They obviously do believe that CoH is more value to them by far than any offers made, but explaining why might only open the door to rivals hoping to exploit the same knowledge.
Stick to a fact - Guys who have built a multi-million dollar game, who have that much business knowledge and strategy, value it higher than those outside do, right now. Each have their own reasons and bets behind their positions. NCsoft are not mad, or stupid, so when you work out the other reasons for them not selling cheap, you'll be closer to working out their true position and strategy.
If we are in a fight with NCsoft, the last thing you ever want to do in a fight is underestimate your opponent, especially in terms of his strategy. It is much safer to assume he knows exactly what he is doing, and prepare for that in your own moves, than to assume he does not. There is good reason that many corporate executives study Sun Tsu, and understand that hiding your true intentions in moves is good strategy. Appear stupid and you will always beat your opponent while the fool is still laughing at you.
The game engine is basically 8 yrs old, sure. But it has been subject to continued maintenance, development and improvement for all of those years. Issue 24 is bang up to date and still has so many features other games have no comparison to.
Do you mind if I re-post this to the COH facebook pages I'm a part of? Or direct links back? This is EXPLOSIVE and needs to be spread around.
I have to admit, I have never heard about 1/2 the Tabula Rasa budget going towards the Garriots.
And Garriott had planned the trip and received approval from NCSoft to take the trip. Although *at one point* he wanted NCsoft to sponsor him (probably to help diffuse the costs), he ended up footing the $30million himself. Infact, he was already in training to go up into space during 2007 (source: Space.com (http://www.space.com/4410-astronaut-son-signs-space-tourist.html)
Tabula Rasa was mainly a PvE game... it might have had the 3rd person action PoV (well, just like CoX really), but it was *not* a PvP focused game. It did have PvP, but you had to make the choice to go into it. It was not possible to go around just randomly ganking players. Sorry, had to correct that, as I played it from closed beta to closure.
If CoX is just purely an innocent bystander in the fight between Garriott and Ncsoft, then why did it take almost a year for the closure to come through (and this was after the final judgement from the Garriott Vs NCsoft court case)?
Wow...
...that's all I can say, Undercat. Excellent analysis. Because this Garriott guy struck out, the Koreans wanna go hide under the covers. It defies all logic of course, yet it explains so much.
Thanks for unveiling all that. So the folks at NCSoft, lost in their xenophobia and their grudge, really do have their fingers in their ears as we on the other side of the Pacific and the language barrier throw a vocal conniption of our own.
Pfft! What a pathetic way for this great game to end. Sure wish it had never been sold to NCSoft in the first place.
You know, that's one of the reasons I've been steering clear of the various Garriott discussions. I know a lot of people are fans, and there's the whole controversy over the resignation letter being used to force him to exercise stock options early (and the resulting lawsuit). However I remember hearing about his 'joyride' right after TR launched and thinking some very unkind thoughts about the type of person who would spend that kind of money on diversions while his huge budget game was floundering.
TBH, if I were Taek Jin Kim, I probably would fired him, too. I doubt I would have closed TR, because there was always the potential it could be salvaged and make up some more of the losses, but who knows.
I really hope that the closing of COH and "realignment of company focus" are not fallout from that fiasco. It would be a shame.
You know, that's one of the reasons I've been steering clear of the various Garriott discussions. I know a lot of people are fans, and there's the whole controversy over the resignation letter being used to force him to exercise stock options early (and the resulting lawsuit). However I remember hearing about his 'joyride' right after TR launched and thinking some very unkind thoughts about the type of person who would spend that kind of money on diversions while his huge budget game was floundering.I'm with Codewalker on that.
Considering that Arenanet and Carbine Studios are American studios, I would be inclined to disagree with your statement that NCsoft is unwilling to use american/european developers. It would probably be more accurate to say that NCsoft are unwilling to support something that doesn't fit in with their roster of game. Now, if something *does* appeal to them, then I believe that they would support it, especially if it is suitable for their own market. For something that is suitable for the US market alone? Possibly not.
Now, I'm not presenting this as what happened either. We can't know. But I can tell you that this is precisely what gets most companies and products shut down. They are given deadlines and performance targets, with a certain amount of leeeway, but at a set point a blunt decision is made with no grey area. It either hit the target or it didn't. If 5 years of knowing targets didn't let people hit them then another 5 months won't either.
But the Paragon Studios team, all of them, were surprised by the closing. If there were targets to hit, they were never told about them. Which is pretty ridiculous.
But the Paragon Studios team, all of them, were surprised by the closing. If there were targets to hit, they were never told about them. Which is pretty ridiculous.Every company I've known to be closed through not hitting its targets is surprised they were not given an extension, or more understanding. Every single one. Or they say the targets were not realistic, or some other reason why they thought that they'd be the exception. But as I say, its a hard rule that protects the professional gambler - there are no exceptions.
We should spend most of our time working on changing the valuations of what it is worth to sell, and what it is costing to keep closed, rather than on speculation and guesswork that we can never prove, and doesn't change the underlying need of what we must do.
Do we have enough severe PR attacks in reserve for after Nov. 30? I reckon there will be a hard drop in their stock value the closer we get to Shutdown, we should have some critically timed press coverage ready to go to capitalize.
We should spend most of our time working on changing the valuations of what it is worth to sell, and what it is costing to keep closed, rather than on speculation and guesswork that we can never prove, and doesn't change the underlying need of what we must do.
Ammon's right. Stay on target. We can speculate and investigate all we want after we get City revived. For now, we need, badly, to keep focus.So... just what's the goal then?
That's an interesting point. How DOES Arenanet fit into all of this? Why are they allowed the amount of autonomy that they obviously are?
Considering that Arenanet and Carbine Studios are American studios, I would be inclined to disagree with your statement that NCsoft is unwilling to use american/european developers. It would probably be more accurate to say that NCsoft are unwilling to support something that doesn't fit in with their roster of game. Now, if something *does* appeal to them, then I believe that they would support it, especially if it is suitable for their own market. For something that is suitable for the US market alone? Possibly not.
O'Brien [president of ArenaNet] is confident the game [GW2] will overtake "World of Warcraft," the market leader produced by Irvine, Calif.-based Blizzard Entertainment, where he and ArenaNet's other founders worked before starting their studio in 2000. (ref) (http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2015645196_brier18.html)...and, given historical precedent, this may be precisely what Kim wants to hear...
ArenaNet kept its autonomy and creative direction, in part because it has enthusiastic support from NCsoft Chief Executive Taek Jin Kim, a gamer and game designer. O'Brien said their conversations tend to be about game design, and Kim wants "to make games that he's proud of, that gamers are going to love and that are going to be the No. 1 games in the industry." (ibid) (http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2015645196_brier18.html)
Garriott's departure from NCsoft was seen as inevitable, as the company has never been pleased with his work ethic.
...
"And it seems like the company has been evaluating foreign developers more cautiously since all the trouble with Garriott," said an industry watcher. (ref) (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2011/04/133_50226.html)
Remind gamers every time an NSoft game turns up in the news that they are the Gamekiller; that time and money invested in an NCSoft game is pouring time and money down a hole, because it can be yanked out from under you without warning at any moment. This means we have to be vigilant about articles and news-stories and make sure that the comments sections are flooded with our statements.
Attack NCSoft on non-gaming fronts. Flood feminist sites with items about the misogynistic nature of Bits and Tits. Flood Parent sites with the soft-core nature of Bits and Tits, and suggest that if this is NCSoft's new direction, they might want to think twice about letting their kids play any NCSoft game.
Remind senior citizens that NCSoft yanked a game that they could have been playing with their grandchildren.
As Ammon said, the important thing is to make it clear that we are not going away, that we are going to spend the same time and energy we spent in gaming on bringing the pain back to NCSoft, and that their reputation is eroding and it is going to cost them an increasingly expensive PR campaign. And that the only way to make us go away is to sell the City to someone who will care for her.
Attack NCSoft on non-gaming fronts. Flood feminist sites with items about the misogynistic nature of Bits and Tits. Flood Parent sites with the soft-core nature of Bits and Tits, and suggest that if this is NCSoft's new direction, they might want to think twice about letting their kids play any NCSoft game. Remind the parents of special needs children that NCSoft yanked a tool that had offered demonstrable help to children like theirs out from under those children--and deprived those in the future of that help. Remind senior citizens that NCSoft yanked a game that they could have been playing with their grandchildren. Use your imagination. Above all, make it clear that we are not going away and will continue to point out why they are a company no one should do business with.And don'y forget one of the strongest accusations of all - NCsoft callously closed a studio putting all of its staff, including but not limited to 80 developers, out of work. Add in the managers, office staff etc and that's a LOT of people who were fired while working hard and earning profit for their parent company. How's that for how NCsoft treat loyalty and respect people?
On top of that, we could be seen as attacking another game. Isn't our aim to unify players of other games to our cause, not to show them in our actions that we are yet another community of gamers who belittle the tastes of other gamers? Attacking Blade and Soul directly sends the wrong message, sadly. If we can use it to get coverage in mainstream, then I believe some of the mixed message may be a cost worth paying. But if we can instead show understanding and support for all gaming tastes, I believe we'll be more likely to inspire that same supportive acceptance from other gamers too.
I prefer mentioning how I can't trust NCSoft anymore.Indeed. As a caricaturist myself (a profession which relies on visual exaggeration of course), the word I use to describe B&S is this :-
That, and the blade and soul female characters are so exaggerated they're the opposite of attractive to me.
That might work for some fraction of the overall gaming population...but the fraction is probably not very large. The players of CoX are somewhat different from those in other MMOs I have tried, which is one of the reasons I like it. Consider also that B&S is presently NCsoft's most popular title in Korea. The majority of MMO gamers are probably male, like myself, and have little or no aversion to innocent T&A. In fact, I consider the idea of fantasizing about killing another human being (PvP) to be orders-of-magnitude more offensive than animated titillation. Why not start a crusade about that? Such topics can rapidly polarize people into religiously-devoted camps and could ultimately hurt the aims of the save-CoH crowd more than help it.
Just saw this on Facebook - a sudden drop for NCSoft :(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/th_Motivator-Schadenfreude.jpg) (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/Motivator-Schadenfreude.jpg)
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS
Apparently the lowest price in 2 years according to comments there.
Look out, NCsoft. I just saw Captain Mako circling around your stock options."Are you outta your MIND? You're in SHARK territory now, NCsoft!"
Just saw this on Facebook - a sudden drop for NCSoft :
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS
Apparently the lowest price in 2 years according to comments there.
Not that I'm not heavily enjoying the schadenfreude here -- MUAHAHAHAHAHA!! *ahem* ;D
but...
What the HECK just happened???? :o
Well consider - it's all connected - if U.S. Stocks tumble, then that's affecting the western market. Less value for the stocks = less value for the companies = less disposable income = less willingness to hire people = fewer jobs = more people under-employed = less disposable income for things like games and entertainment.
And the fact that this is heading into the Christmas Season is just doubly bad.
I am aware of that, I just don't think the effect is that great.
If the US economy tanks, then the world has a good chance of following it... and that markets reflected that.
The majority of exporters here have seen their bottom lines deteriorate as a result of the steep appreciation of the Korean won against the dollar and other major foreign currencies over the past few months.
You know, regardless of whether Obama's re-election is causing a world-wide stock market crash, our efforts can only help to make NCSoft's fall even faster. So keep it up.
I don't think this will ever happen, but isn't it entertaining to imagine plunging them down to cheap enough that we could buy their whole company? (Then again, I'm a guy who only buys lottery tickets when it's a 100 million-to-one ratio of payout to ticket price, and THEN considers it money spent on the entertainment value of imagining what I'd do with that much money. I know I'm spending money I won't see again; it's why I buy just one, and enjoy the fantasy.)
Ahhh yes of course. Stands to reason that Wall Street are in a panic that Obama's been re-elected. He's about the most anti-business chief executive this country has ever had.
While lobbyists would kill it dead, I wish Congress here in the States at least would institute a law confiscating ALL proceeds from illegal activity.
VERY slippery slope that.
Blow a red light? That's illegal! We're taking your car.
Killed a burglar breaking into your house and have someone classify it as unjustified? That's homicide. That's illegal! We're taking your house!
The laws get changed so that something your business is doing, that was perfectly legal before, is now considered "wrong"? We're taking your business!
Yeah. While part of me wishes the "war on crime" had more muscle, all those protections on personal liberty and property, that politicians seem so blithely intent on eroding, are there for a reason.
Killed a burglar breaking into your house and have someone classify it as unjustified? That's homicide. That's illegal! We're taking your house!
Killed a burglar breaking into your house and have someone classify it as unjustified? That's homicide. That's illegal! We're taking your house!
Depends on where you live. Here in Alaska, I'm pretty sure you can kill a burglar who breaks into your house. :)
In the lower 48, though, I've heard stories of burglars breaking into houses, they fall down and hurt themselves, and get away with lawsuits against the owners. People down there are nuts, it would never fly up here...but then again, we're barbarians up here. We give away road kill to people who sign up for it :D
not in texas, you break in someone house and they shoot you and you live, the first question authorities will ask the owner is why didnt you kill him?As long as you don't shoot him in the back, you're good to go. If you shoot them in the back, there will be more questions, but you're probably still going to be OK.
As long as you don't shoot him in the back, you're good to go. If you shoot them in the back, there will be more questions, but you're probably still going to be OK.
not in texas, you break in someone house and they shoot you and you live, the first question authorities will ask the owner is why didnt you kill him? In fact they only have to be merely trespassing. In other states those No trespassing signs may be a joke. Here, it's serious buisness. It means they warned you, you ignored, so they can shoot you no questions asked.
not in texas, you break in someone house and they shoot you and you live, the first question authorities will ask the owner is why didnt you kill him? In fact they only have to be merely trespassing. In other states those No trespassing signs may be a joke. Here, it's serious buisness. It means they warned you, you ignored, so they can shoot you no questions asked.
Depends on where you live. Here in Alaska, I'm pretty sure you can kill a burglar who breaks into your house. :)In most states down here, you can shoot someone who breaks into your house, if you have a reasonable fear that they would cause you harm: Self Defense.
In the lower 48, though, I've heard stories of burglars breaking into houses, they fall down and hurt themselves, and get away with lawsuits against the owners. People down there are nuts, it would never fly up here...but then again, we're barbarians up here. We give away road kill to people who sign up for it :D
Texas: where "gun control" means "a steady hand."I like that one! (I can't believe I hadn't heard it before, unless you just made it up?)
Looks like they finally levelled out (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) at around 170,500, currently sitting at 171,000. They're still lower now than they have been in years.
But they're still way ahead from back in 2008.Can you imagine being the one to break the news to stockholders that you'd just lost/reversed the last 4 years of growth? :)
That and the kitten. Okay, mainly the kitten, but that's beside the point.Envying you so damned much right now. I miss my late kitty.
No, let's keep talking about cats ;)Talk about your one-cat war on nature. It's like reading about an ancient kung-fu master who fights wolves, bears and tigers for practice, only it's a cat. I mean, cripes, a stoat and a weasel? Those things can kill a cat. The mole's just pure sadism; I mean, poor things are defenseless once you dig them up or yank them out of their burrows. Your kitty just didn't tolerate the existence of anything rodent or even vaguely rodent-like in his territory.
I lost an old dear feline friend just last week - ex-feral guy, no idea how old he was, but I know he was at least 12. And still hunting right up until he curled up purring and switched off his own lights - in fact just two days before, he'd brought in the mother of all rats. In his time he'd caught countless rats, rabbits, mice, pigeons...and also along the way a stoat, a weasel and even a mole. Never seen a hunter like him. He carried on being the Hunter Supreme right til the servers went down, so to speak - an example to us all :)
Cat awesomeness
No, let's keep talking about cats ;)Whoa! Neko-ro Mifune! CLAWS OF JUSTICE DO NOT RETRACT! :D
I lost an old dear feline friend just last week - ex-feral guy, no idea how old he was, but I know he was at least 12. And still hunting right up until he curled up purring and switched off his own lights - in fact just two days before, he'd brought in the mother of all rats. In his time he'd caught countless rats, rabbits, mice, pigeons...and also along the way a stoat, a weasel and even a mole. Never seen a hunter like him. He carried on being the Hunter Supreme right til the servers went down, so to speak - an example to us all :)
Now, back to the stockwatch..."Next time, on Stockwatch:"
Well, to tie it in with the meme thread, and to rub it in their faces...
Anyone skilled enough in Flash to make an animation of lemmings parading down the curve?
Quite possibly. >.> <.<
Unfortunately the time is more lacking than the skill.
Inform the CoH forums? Sadl,y I wouldn't because at this point any positive hope thread, farewell message, etc. winds up in the hands of a certain group of angsters. My Youtube editor, and 8-year vet and poster on those forums, was in frightened off by that group to the point where she removed the CoH forums from her Faves list. And the Mods, what few are left, are pretty much letting them get away with whatever they want. I wouldn't post anything over there unless you have people you can PM to get the information.
If it comes from a redname I will accept it.
However, you guys didn't exactly paint yourselves in a good light when you all jumped on Hitstreak in the past, even accusing NCsoft of feeding him lines to the public.
Sword swings both ways.
If it comes from a redname I will accept it.
However, you guys didn't exactly paint yourselves in a good light when you all jumped on Hitstreak in the past, even accusing NCsoft of feeding him lines to the public.
Sword swings both ways.
Who are "you guys"?
I don't remember this jumping-on-Hit Streak thing... I guess I must've skipped the meeting. Sorry, I'll try not to make a habit of it.
There are a lot of rumors that Taek-Jin Kim is trying to unload the other half of his stock in NCSoft.
Interesting...I'm wondering now if my tinfoil hat theory of Kim wanting to bug out to manage the NCsoft pro-baseball team might actually have some legs to it after all... :o
If he manages the baseball team as well as he managed NCSoft Interactive....
Interesting...I'm wondering now if my tinfoil hat theory of Kim wanting to bug out to manage the NCsoft pro-baseball team might actually have some legs to it after all... :o
Also, Jessie has pinkeye.
... I get the NC-Soft news like "There is an significant growth and they are making a lot of money because of Guild Wars and Blade & Soul", not a single word about this Stockwatch diving like a lemming down the cliff...Where the the blue heck are you getting your news?
Just a little noob question: What exactly is this Stockwatch? When I'm searching the german news then I get the NC-Soft news like "There is an significant growth and they are making a lot of money because of Guild Wars and Blade & Soul", not a single word about this Stockwatch diving like a lemming down the cliff...It's a compression of the words "stock" and "watch." This thread is a "stockwatch" because it is, quite literally, an exercise in watching NCSoft's stock.
To be fair, the decline of NCsoft shares have *not* hit the news... unless you are actually *looking* for information about NCsoft shares prices, and even then, it is still more than likely going to just chuck you to the Reuters/Yahoo/bloomberg Share page for them.
I cannot for the life of me find a link, but I believe I saw a report that even Korean players are disappointed with Bits and Tits; the complaint is that you run through the sparse content very fast and then are left with yet another Korean Grind where you have literally nothing to do but engage in mass battles. Which are virtually identical to every other Korean Grind's mass battles, except with more jiggly bits.
I cannot for the life of me find a link, but I believe I saw a report that even Korean players are disappointed with Bits and Tits; the complaint is that you run through the sparse content very fast and then are left with yet another Korean Grind where you have literally nothing to do but engage in mass battles. Which are virtually identical to every other Korean Grind's mass battles, except with more jiggly bits.
I can't shake the feeling there is something seriously wrong with that picture.
Nothing seriously wrong with that chart!! Its the way we want it to be going isnt it?
If it were your health chart, they would be wheeling you into Intensive Care!
Im just getting ready to send NCSoft Board of Directors a "we wish you a merry and prosperous christmas" card.
Im just getting ready to send NCSoft Board of Directors a "we wish you a merry and prosperous christmas" card.
I'd rather send them an Ebenezer Scrooge card with Scrooge saying "You should die and decrease the surplus population."
I'd rather send them an Ebenezer Scrooge card with Scrooge saying "You should die and decrease the surplus population."
VV, I think the implication of dior's card is that selling the game would make us merry and them prosperous (or at least less poor).I was under the impression it was sarcastic. The only thing it was missing is "Good luck with that."
Maybe just investors banking on the holiday spending. It's hard to think any company that markets to kids won't see at least some improvement in December.Be that as it may, right now I'm kinda hoping NC winds up with a lump of coal big enough to solve the fossil fuel crisis indefinitely.
Blueside, I think the best way to make them keep tanking is another Call to Action. On that note, keep your eyes peeled - the secret project is just crossing the Is and dotting the Ts on stage one. Stage two, well, we'll be needing your help, so keep watching the forum.You know y'all are killing me with suspense, yes?
You know y'all are killing me with suspense, yes?It literally is the final polish on the project that's underway, so it won't be long until we need everyone's help with the crazy long-shot. :)
Are we going to turn the tables on them by buying NCSoft and then firing everyone?You'd probably only need about $1 billion to own enough of a majority of the stock to force something like that, thanks to the drop in prices. There must be a couple of hundred of us, really actively campaigning, so we probably only need to put in about $5 million each... ;)
It literally is the final polish on the project that's underway, so it won't be long until we need everyone's help with the crazy long-shot. :)
Just thought I should mention it, given the thread topic.
Nail, furniture, or shoe? ;)
Sausage! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielbasa)
Sausage! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielbasa)Words to live by: Never polish another man's sausage.
But should you ever sausage another man's Polish?Never sausage a Polish man?
As a Pole (Yup, a real one), i do not approve of sausaging polish man, but I do approve good polish sausage.
And don't try it with anyone from the neighboring country. Or you could have a sour Kraut.
Blueside, I think the best way to make them keep tanking is another Call to Action. On that note, keep your eyes peeled - the secret project is just crossing the Is and dotting the Ts on stage one. Stage two, well, we'll be needing your help, so keep watching the forum.
Stage one has been launched. Stage two is scheduled for Monday, when everyone's had a chance to recover from the traditional tryptophan poisoning. Keep your eyes on the forums and the news.
I have little doubts that Nexon was the catalyst behind this - and it is possible that getting the NCSoft stock price to tank is part of their plan - however, it does sound like the stuff of movies.
The why: because OUR devs could not, or would not, monetize the Ascendant end-game, turning CoH into the Korean Grind Microtransaction Hell so beloved of Nexon.To be fair, the entire end-game of CoH was locked away not only behind pay-to-win, but full subscription. You had to both subscribe and grind to get all those incarnate powers slotted up. Unlike microtransactions, where once you bought it you have it til the game closes, the Incarnate ascension stuff would be unuseable the moment you stopped subscribing, even if you'd been a subscriber from the very start. The ultimate in rented power.
To be fair, the entire end-game of CoH was locked away not only behind pay-to-win, but full subscription. You had to both subscribe and grind to get all those incarnate powers slotted up. Unlike microtransactions, where once you bought it you have it til the game closes, the Incarnate ascension stuff would be unuseable the moment you stopped subscribing, even if you'd been a subscriber from the very start. The ultimate in rented power.]
True-ish. But if I understand the poster correctly, the way that Nexon works is that you either faceplant a lot or you pay from the get-go. Casual gaming becomes casualty gaming.Having played a lot of Nexon games, this is basically how it goes. Most Nexon games assume a certain minimum of cash expenditures as part of a player's levelling strategy. If you don't then you're underpowered, and frequently you'll hit a point where diminishing returns on loot-per-kill-per-death can't fund the cost of your constant deaths, especially if you attempt to solo.
Having played a lot of Nexon games, this is basically how it goes. Most Nexon games assume a certain minimum of cash expenditures as part of a player's levelling strategy. If you don't then you're underpowered, and frequently you'll hit a point where diminishing returns on loot-per-kill-per-death can't fund the cost of your constant deaths, especially if you attempt to solo.
So basically they're pushers who are foisting drugs cut with bulking agent on you, and after a while the hit you get off them isn't enough to make scoring the free stuff worthwhile, so you have to fork over the dosh if you want a real high. That's...unsettling, to say the least. :oKinda, same idea but here's how it actually works.
His take on the CoH situation is similarly discouraging. Apparently the Garriott fiasco has sparked xenophobia, and NCSoft "just wants the relationship with the west to end." They want to do business now only with fellow Asians. So the arbitrary CoH shutdown and the treatment of Paragon employees is a logical consequence of a corporate temper tantrum. We are, all of us, victims of the messy Garriott-NCSoft feud.
As to the IP, he considers it in character for Kim and company to shove CoH into an archive forever. I think they might even erase the code out of spite.
As to the IP, he considers it in character for Kim and company to shove CoH into an archive forever. I think they might even erase the code out of spite.
In any case, the discussion I had with him indicates that lights-out on the first really is the end of Paragon City, barring a pirated copy of the code on a pirate server.
That might just happen anyway, with Nexon holding a fire sale on all the IPs that NCSoft has been squatting on, should anyone show any interest in them.
At this point, it's clear that Nexon is pulling some strings too, and Nexon is Japanese, not Korean. They have no reason to support Kim's xenophobia, and they are not (according to MY source) at all happy about the nosedive the stock they bought has taken.
I'm still seeing more green in their price change (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS). I'm not happy about this.
Of course, they're still floundering pretty hard and can't seem to stay above 165k won, but I'd love for them to dip below 150k, just to see what panic it induces.
Actually, Kim is very much a minority shareholder at this pointYes, he sold out 15% to Nexon, retaining around 10% then of his previous 25% share. The fact that he sold three-fifths of his entire holdings is what has shaken the value so hard. A CEO selling his shares short is always a worry. Doing it before a major launch that is supposed to raise the value, even more worry. Selling the majority of his shares is just ... suicidal, on top of selling them short, right before the big new launches.
I don't know much of anything about this *mabinogi 2* - and "Call me Ishmael..." = But, I suspect it's closer to the "WoW-Killer" they've been hunting for like the 'White Whale' for all these years now, no?
I knew nowt about it either, but a bit of snuffling around leads me to believe Mabinogi II : Arena will have more in common with the good ol' coin op Gauntlet than an MMO. Check out the games expo gameplay vids here :-
http://news.mmosite.com/content/2012-11-08/mabinogi_ii_arena_camera_footage_from_game_demo.shtml
The article even mentions a choice of 4 characters : Archer, Bard, Heavy Hammer, Sword+Shield (to me that reads as Elf, Wizard, Barbarian, Valkyrie). It's gory too, with blood splashing everywhere. Everything I've seen about it so far screams "games cabinet in an arcade" to me.
So they think resurrecting old coin ops with a modern graphic makeover is the brave new future that will save their share prices? How odd ???
The redside me wants to see the stock freefall and crash to 100 won the moment they turn off the servers.
The redside me wants to see the stock freefall and crash to 100 won the moment they turn off the servers.
Reading the player reviews is harsh on that GW2 event. A new game and the first try at a non Halloween event and people rack the Dev's over the coals.
Makes me think many of them would push my Granny of a sidewalk for walking slow.
( Feel better now thankyou :) )
Ok, I'll admit, I play GW2. The vast majority of my CoX friends were pre-orders for it, and I got it before the announcement.
GW2 is nice and all, but certainly not a replacement for CoX. The handling of the event was bad, and they should have learned a lot more from their Halloween event on what to do and not to do, but it certainly didn't seem that way.
Funny enough, they've just now released the ability to completely change your characters appearance, including gender. This costs 1000 "gmes", IIRC, which translates into a fair chunk of real world change; $10 will buy you 800 gmes. You can buy gems for in-game money. Right now around 1 gold piece per 100 gems... which is a lot of in-game money. You can buy a cheaper kit, to change your hair color and style, as well as eye color, for "only" 400 gems (again, IIRC).
Arenanet seems really fond of doing 1 time events during the work/school day, which appears to piss off a huge part of their player base.
i hope to see their stocks burn faster than a thermite balloon in the next few days
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.
Y'know, I am kicking myself for not demoediting a mayhem mission and changing the artwork on the front of the bank to the NCsoft corporate logo, and then having an 8-man MM team with full pets just go swarming through the place like a plague of Egypt.I'll bring the desserts
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Y'know, I am kicking myself for not demoediting a mayhem mission and changing the artwork on the front of the bank to the NCsoft corporate logo, and then having an 8-man MM team with full pets just go swarming through the place like a plague of Egypt.
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.
But if the day comes when Taek Jin Kim and whoever else made and executed the decision to murder City of Heroes are dragged by their feet outside NCsoft headquarters and publicly flogged by the players of the games they buried, I'll be buying a cattle prod and an airplane ticket to Korea.While I can understand the sentiment, I honestly wouldn't want to wish physical harm on NCsoft publically - you know some muckraker will try to use statements like that to smear us as hateful monsters. It's ammo for the unicorns.
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.There are days in Seattle where the weather suits a barbeque? Or is this a localized version of "a cold day in hell" :)
Rumor hath it that Nexon is buying up the cheap shares. This could get interesting if true.What, they didn't get enough when TJKim undersold 2/3 of his stock to them? ;)
Rumor hath it that Nexon is buying up the cheap shares. This could get interesting if true.
There are days in Seattle where the weather suits a barbeque? Or is this a localized version of "a cold day in hell" :)
Y'know, I am kicking myself for not demoediting a mayhem mission and changing the artwork on the front of the bank to the NCsoft corporate logo, and then having an 8-man MM team with full pets just go swarming through the place like a plague of Egypt.
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Late spring and summer in the Seattle area is almost always beautiful. We just don't advertise it much, and the rainy winters keep a lot of people away.
I'll bring the desserts
Um. Yeah, the KRX actually opens in an hour. This might be a good night. I'll have to run for more beer, I think. Something snooty, like Stella Artois or something else I can't pronounce.
Well, NCSoft knows what they can do that will completely silence all of this bad press they're going.
I don't think it would stop all the bad press. It would slow the flood of bad press they've been getting, but I don't think that simply coughing up the game is going to make us all forget -- much less forgive -- what they did. I expect that we would continue to see people spreading the word that NCSoft considers you -- and the rest of its customers -- a fungible commodity with an infinite supply, so they are free to do whatever they want to you, and you can just suck it up. That's why I didn't bother with any sort of expression of my disappointment with Aion when I quit playing it; I was certain that the corporate attitude would be 'bye, there are thousands more to take your place'.
Honestly, I think that's a little uncalled for. Wishing unemployment on tens of thousands of employees and or depriving possibly millions of gamers just like ourselves has no moral or ethical grounds - they did us no harm.
But if the day comes when Taek Jin Kim and whoever else made and executed the decision to murder City of Heroes are dragged by their feet outside NCsoft headquarters and publicly flogged by the players of the games they buried, I'll be buying a cattle prod and an airplane ticket to Korea.
Hey, a man can dream.
Rumor hath it that Nexon is buying up the cheap shares. This could get interesting if true.
Sounds like they want a controlling interest
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Considering some people (not all, but some people) here, I doubt the bad PR would stop even if NCsoft did everything *and more*.
Some people just want to hate on someone, even if the someone does everything in their power to rectify the situation...
Considering some people (not all, but some people) here, I doubt the bad PR would stop even if NCsoft did everything *and more*.
Some people would just see it as "too little, too late." Personally, if NCSoft were to sell the IP and game now, after turning down prevous offers and the game has already gone dark, I would interpret it as a purely selfish move to slow the bleeding rather than any desire to generate or maintain good will among their customers, and I would not be likely to cut them any slack for it.
Considering some people (not all, but some people) here, I doubt the bad PR would stop even if NCsoft did everything *and more*.
Some people just want to hate on someone, even if the someone does everything in their power to rectify the situation...
If it happens to cut into NCSoft's bottom line, well, that's a consequence of the business decisions that NCSoft makes; if they hadn't been making their decisions based on the almighty bottom line and their view of the image of the company, they wouldn't be in the position of having tens of thousands of severely honked-off ex-players ready to do NCSoft dirty.
True, but you'd be surprised how far an apology and a legitimate attempt to make things right would go. I think that if NCsoft were to let go of the IP and post something that amounts to, "We were wrong, we're sorry. We know that things will never be the same, but we've heard you and we're trying our best to undo what damage has been done," I think a LOT of people would feel a lot better about the company and they could still use it for some positive PR.
The sad thing is, even though every word of this is true, and we see it at play in current events with BP, I just don't think it's culturally possible. I know people have said that this kind of xenophob-esque rhetoric is out of line, and I agree. But an unpleasant truth is still a truth.
Sorry in destroying any illusions, but absolutly nothing will happen there.You know what, I'm pretty cynical, but you aren't clairvoyant and you don't know that. That's simply your belief. Well-founded, yes, but a belief all the same.
Maybe they really wanted to make a part 2 in some years when everyone will forget what happend here, who knows.Yeah, again, cynic here, but guess what...some people have long memories. I still recall the shoddy treatment and lies Miramax gave the fans of the Crow franchise in regards to the release of "The Crow-Salvation" back in 1999-2000, and while there aren't a lot of us, I'm not alone. I boycotted every single Miramax release for over 2 years.
Right, the people will never accept a part 2 from an other team so long the better part 1 is still running, so the game must be closed...
Hmm it's still stupid... :-\
I should note that VV has, herself, stated that keeping up the pressure is crucial even now precisely because NCSoft must feel a desire to sell. So, if it is in fact now possible, they must feel the pressure EVEN HARDER so that the sudden ease of selling combined with the increase of pressure acts to pop the cork out of the bottle in which they've stuffed the deed to CoH.
Does this mean I don't have to be nice, anymore? >:(
Dear stereotypical people: If stereotypes are wrong, please do your part to stop proving them right."
Remember that, as things stand right now, there is nothing more that NCSoft can do to us.
Gentlemen, I'm pleased to announce that the numbers are in red. The stock fell -1.86% since yesterday.
They can attempt to take legal action against us for that, yes. As I said, I'm no lawyer, but I am military. And I know that a "formless" enemy like us is almost impossible to fight. We have no head to strike off, no heart to stab, we cannot be defeated if they attack.The worst thing they could do is cause us to disperse and act individually. That would make it impossible to call the campaign off, ever.
(I did raise the alarm against one possible endgame: deletion of the files. Other voices have convinced me that is not among Kim's options, thank heaven! I'm sure he'd do so with pleasure.)Do not underestimate the power of human pettiness and spite.
I'm no lawyer. But I do know that in the US, verifiable cases of Internet libel go unpunished by the courts. There are simply too many (word substituted) for the courts to take such things seriously. Despite this, I do not advocate libel, but that we ought instead to simply say the truth about NCSoft as loudly as possible: NCSoft sucks.
But we... we will never stop, not until they sell.
"...the numbers are in red."
Heh! November was a dreadful month for them. If December is equally bad, they'll be back where they were in 2007.
Investors and NCSoft are likely asking themselves why. Perhaps they should be asking instead why so many are cheering about it. I believe in the laws of karma, and having so many people justly angry at you is very bad karma. Moving on....
"...the numbers are in red."
Heh! November was a dreadful month for them. If December is equally bad, they'll be back where they were in 2007.
Investors and NCSoft are likely asking themselves why.
Do we have a general picture of Korea's overall markets today? I'm not totally convinced Korea isn't crashing in general. How steep is NCSoft's comparative curve? I really have no idea how to search for this information; I avoid the stockmarket, in general, like the plague.
For myself I'd forgive them if they helped the game to continue, though I wouldn't forget without some kind of very convincing argument of why the game was closed the way it was. But fundamentally in my experience it's very easy for people to make a mistake, it's almost impossible for some people to ever admit such a thing. If NCSoft actually got the courage to stand up and say "We're sorry, we handled this wrong and we're going to try and do x to at least improve things" then I'd at least gain some respect back for them.
...
With apologies to Percy Bysshe Shelley, a comforting image to take away:
I met a traveller from a foreign land
Who said: A vast broken facade of stone
Stands in the desert. Near it, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered CEO lies, whose frown,
and wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And below the corporate logo these words appear:
"My name is NCSoft, master of MMOs:
Look upon my ROI, ye competitors, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
I am not smiling, I will full admit to that.
I very much regret that the necessity of our actions will unfortunately harm those with whom we have no quarrel (namely the families of those staff at NCSoft who are now at risk), and I certainly wish that another path had been chosen.
I am not adverse to showing kindness to NCSoft, but that kindness will necessarily be unfathomable ruthless in its execution.
I had hoped this would not have been necessary.
Quite a line of sociopathic thinking there....
I do believe that's a free fall.
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS
Hmm. Folks, anyone got an address for Nexxon? Their big money-maker is Maple Story. I could make the case CoH functioned rather like Maple Story for many of the players (the RPers specifically) with the rich ability to social-network within the game itself. We might be able to do a back-door on NCSoft via Nexxon.
Screw free fall, that's pulling a Thelma & Louise right off the nearest cliff! O_o
Quite a line of sociopathic thinking there....
Vengeful, yes. Short-sighted? Yes. Sociopathic, not necessarily.
That said, I don't support a scorched-earth policy either. I want NCSoft to sell the IP and then go about their business, not to watch their employees get cast to the 4 economic winds like the Paragon crew were.
Quite a line of sociopathic thinking there....
That's my ideal outcome, honestly. But until they do sell they are still my enemy, and I refuse to show them any mercy what-so-ever. After all, they showed us none.
We need a full court press on TF Hail Mary and knock it out of the park.
.
.
.
Hat trick.
I do believe that's a free fall.And they have nobody to blame but themselves.
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS
Quite a line of sociopathic thinking there...Sociopathic? Sociopathic was killing a vital community. Sociopathic was gutting a development studio that was operating in the black. Sociopathic was giving aforementioned community bullshit non-answers when asked why. Sociopathic was laying off even more western employees in the face of a scathing-yet-entirely-deserved onslaught of negative press, all because they can't grow a pair of cojones and admit that they screwed up and go back and make things right!
And I guess that you don't give 2 hoots about how Beastyle was doing? Guess you weren't worried about putting him out of a job.
Yeah, as i said, nice line of sociopathic thinking....
And i thought we were *better* than this. But honestly not giving 2 hoots about the fact that you could well be directly responsible for making people unemployed doesn't even bother you? Guess that means that you are truly a sociopath.
And I guess that you don't give 2 hoots about how Beastyle was doing? Guess you weren't worried about putting him out of a job.We weren't the one who put Beastyle out of a job. NCsoft did. They could've done numerous things prior to now to avoid having to lay off anyone, let alone Beastyle. But they didn't, and what's worse, they didn't even give us a genuine, believable reason as to why.
Yeah, as i said, nice line of sociopathic thinking....
Beastyle isn't out of a job. Yet.
And, considering the OSHA compliance on the Death Star, getting blown up was the least of their problems. Seriously, have the people in that galaxy even heard of a railing?
People in that universe know better than to walk too close to a 30km drop. ;)Fortunately the Gungans don't come over to visit very often.
Fortunately the Gungans don't come over to visit very often.
Fortunately the Gungans don't come over to visit very often.
I read Fulcrum's post as referring to Star Wars' future; that is, episodes 4-6.
Just looked over today's stocks.
Is that the Korean article doing that? 'Cause that right there is what we 'round here call a faceplant! Yippie ki-yay, m___ ___s!
I personally do not want anyone to lose their jobs. Except Kim and his wife.
I hope ArenaNet can buy their firm back and have everyone keep his or her job.
I want someone to buy City that will treat it and the studio properly.
*looks up from where he was welding supports to a lawn-chair with multiple rings for the myriad balloons*
Does this mean we'll have to delay your flight, VV? ;)
Excuse me while I indulge in my oft neglected redside....
"COME!!! LAUGH WITH ME!!! MUA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!"
"We'll show them! We'll show them ALL! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!"
(Can you tell my favorite redside arc was Vernon Von Grun? ^_^)
I almost feel sorry for Nexon. Its like they paid for their 15% stake in NCsoft twice. First by buying them for almost $700 million, and then by seeing their value decrease by a truly humongous amount since that time in June... There's more than a little irony in the fact that at first, eyebrows were raised that they were bought at under the market value, but no you can see that they massively overpaid what those shares are worth today. :D
Excuse me while I indulge in my oft neglected redside....*hands you a celebratory vial of bees*
"COME!!! LAUGH WITH ME!!! MUA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!"
"We'll show them! We'll show them ALL! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!"
(Can you tell my favorite redside arc was Vernon Von Grun? ^_^)
That gives me an idea....
Hey, Tony, how about making a sticky link to their stock-watch(and locking it), so we can watch the ongoing faceplant?
How about we do the weather balloon thing, and launch Statesman to the edge of space with a "SaveCoH" ribbon, or a message for Disney attached to him?
Get off Emmert's back, all that nerfing was, like, a million years ago! Sheesh, let it go alrea... oh wait, you mean a mannequin dressed up as the character Statesman? Never mind!
*post removed due to Titan Network refusing to delete posts at users request, and not deleting user account*
Yeah, I'm baffled by all the post-removals with that same message. I hadn't seen any drama that I know of, but I do know that it's possible to have tons of it without most people ever noticing.
*hands you a celebratory vial of bees*
Did cmgangrel pick up his internets and go home? :( We need that guy, he keeps us grounded.
Something went down with cmgangrel in this thread:
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6967.0.html (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6967.0.html)
Beyond that, I couldn't say.
In other news, looks like NC's stock isn't recovering from that nosedive last night. I wish we could have a hidden camera in their offices to see what's being discussed right now.I would settle for a hidden speaker in Taek Jim Kim's office, some voice modulation software, and a Korean translator.
I would settle for a hidden speaker in Taek Jim Kim's office, some voice modulation software, and a Korean translator.
I would settle for a hidden dead fish in Taek Jim Kim's office.
Consider this, Nafaustu. Last I heard, about 60/80 of Paragon Studios were reemployed. If these people that same level of talent and resolve, I think they'll be just fine. I hope it's the case, the idea of anyone being unemployed in the holiday season, especially if they have a family, just breaks my heart.
No, yeah. He was talking about the Seattle guys, not Paragon. What I was doing was using Paragon as a reference for how quick some of these ladies and gentlemen can find work again. Sorry for that mix up.
Little disingenuous, Kaiser, forgive me.I can understand the point you're trying to make. Yes, we are deliberately engaged in the creation of anti-NCsoft memes and cheering as NCsoft tanks. I mentioned the latter outright.
Look over the memes section. We're actively engaging in a campaign to make NCSoft look bad. I personally made an image comparing NC's management to vampires, not to mention that "NCSoftcore" line. We're cheering their stock plummet. Granted, we were provoked, but we need to own up to that, and accept the moral responsibility for it.
For one thing, accepting moral responsibility and moral reflection is a large share of what separates us from them. I applaud Perfidus' reflection, while urging us all to accept the costs and continue.
Common wisdom says that you don't kick a hornet's nest unless you're comfortable with the idea of being swarmed afterward.
I believe someone pointed out that the numbers you're seeing don't mean much until you multiply them by the number of stocks that exist in NCSoft. Overall, since around the time they announced the shuttering of Paragon and CoH, investors lost a total of ~$232,000,000 (I am terrible at math, someone please correct me).
If this happened to an American company, people would be buying new underwear.
While I can understand the Machiavellian appeal of buying up NCSoftcore stock at a low point, I cannot in good conscience contribute to this. Whatever the motivation, whatever the intended outcome, we would be investing in NCSoftcore, however temporarily. In fact, my future purchase of anything with their name attached to it is fully dependent on, not their sale of the CoH IP and related pieces, but how they handle it. I can't really even tell you specifically what I would have to see from them that would assuage the bad feelings they have created in their handling of the situation, so far.
While I can understand the Machiavellian appeal of buying up NCSoftcore stock at a low point, I cannot in good conscience contribute to this. Whatever the motivation, whatever the intended outcome, we would be investing in NCSoftcore, however temporarily. In fact, my future purchase of anything with their name attached to it is fully dependent on, not their sale of the CoH IP and related pieces, but how they handle it. I can't really even tell you specifically what I would have to see from them that would assuage the bad feelings they have created in their handling of the situation, so far.
Which assets are you looking at, just fixed, or are you counting cash equivalents and the like?
The reason I ask is that their last yearly report indicated that a substantial chunk of their short term assets was their own stock. I know they've sold some it it since then in order to fund some acquisitions, so it's less than it was, but still might account for part if it -- the value of which would now be lower of course.
I believe someone pointed out that the numbers you're seeing don't mean much until you multiply them by the number of stocks that exist in NCSoft. Overall, since around the time they announced the shuttering of Paragon and CoH, investors lost a total of ~$232,000,000 (I am terrible at math, someone please correct me).
I am reminded of a certain famous coyote...Coincidentally, I am too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq_bjaI0NTo).
I don't want to say we're solely responsible but I bet we're at least partly so.It'd be egotistical to assume full responsibility. But it'd be ignorant to assume we've got nothing to do with it ;)
Hence my tempered response! I like to think I'm a balanced individual. I hope.Of course. I just had to say something because I'm procrastinating. And apparently stalking you today.
I know- tried to account for that.That's traditionally called Book Value. However if you a believer in PEG ratios, the Price/Earnings/Earnings Growth, a "fair" price would be around 88,000 give or take.
my estimate of 53,000 won for the "bottom" share value was taken by taking the won value of the assets they're sitting on that people were reporting and dividing by the total number of available shares out there. Essentially a "if we shut down, cashed out everything and just paid the shareholders, what would each share be worth?"
While I can understand the Machiavellian appeal of buying up NCSoftcore stock at a low point, I cannot in good conscience contribute to this. Whatever the motivation, whatever the intended outcome, we would be investing in NCSoftcore, however temporarily. In fact, my future purchase of anything with their name attached to it is fully dependent on, not their sale of the CoH IP and related pieces, but how they handle it. I can't really even tell you specifically what I would have to see from them that would assuage the bad feelings they have created in their handling of the situation, so far.Well, one thing you could do if you wanted and were confident the price would keep going down: short sell the stock.
Right now it looks like the stock is being bunny-hopped between computerized automatic stock orders now that it's hit a certain threshold as they try to maintain it's value...
This is only a guess, but from what he said, it sounds like he's saying somebody is setting up computerized automatic stock orders to sell and buy at a specific price. This would only work without losing money if the sold stocks were being bought preferentially at the higher-than-market price so they're ping-ponging the same stock shares back and forth, creating the illusion that some of the stocks are trading at a fixed value. No stocks are changing hands out of a small cabal of buyers, so this truly is an illusion of activity at a certain price level.
I've never seriously followed stocks before. Could you explain how you can tell that's what's happening? I just want to understand. Thanks.
Unfortunately, it also means that there will be opportunity for third parties to acquire the IP specifically for the purpose of not reviving it, to effectively prevent it from competing with their own products. It really just boils down to exactly who it is and if they want they want to do.TF Hail Mary, GO!
here is, in my humble opinion, an extremely insightful and probably really accurate analysis (http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3296837&cid=42197775) of what I think NCsoft's motivations are over on Slashdot. Probably a bit of a simplification, but still probably more-or-less accurate.
I may get flamed for this, but I don't particularly wish NCSoft ill or hope they go out of business.
There is, in my humble opinion, an extremely insightful and probably really accurate analysis (http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3296837&cid=42197775) of what I think NCsoft's motivations are over on Slashdot. Probably a bit of a simplification, but still probably more-or-less accurate.
I agree with you on this. In my mind, there's a difference between NCsoft the company, the NCsoft executive leadership, and the NCsoft employees.
As a company, NCsoft has done great things for the industry in helping to expand the MMO market. The NCsoft employees are probably great people who are just doing their job. I think the issue comes down to the leadership and their seemingly confusing strategies.
Some people have held that the "collateral damage" of people losing their jobs is too much, and that we shouldn't really be going after NCsoft like we are.
A bit harsh on people like Beastyle that were ex-CoH and work in NCSoft Seattle.
Not really. By this point, they know who they're working for. If they aren't sprucing up their resume already, they're in for a rude awakening soon. NCSoft has made its bed. Now they have to lie in it. Do any of us like it? Are any of us gleefully rubbing our hands together over it? No. But we're not the ones making poor decisions that affect NCSoft employees: Their management is.
As I said before, so long as the likes of Monsanto still exist, I just can't be bothered with any real thoughts of vengeance towards the NCSoft execs.
Just sell the game to someone who will use it, and I will cheerfully ignore your company to the end of days.
It's so simple a Clockwork could understand it.
If COH != OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = ATK.CRP(OWN.COH)
CRP(OWN.COH) = NCS
RSP.CORP != NCS
TSK = ATK.NCS until NCS != OWN.COH
If COH = OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = PLY.COH
If TSK = PLY.COH Then NCS.RLV = 0
Is... Is that..? That's the very style of code output by the service droids in Praetoria. I don't know the language itself, but I think I understand it. I don't suppose I could request a translation to Java or C++, so everyone else can understand it?
It's so simple a Clockwork could understand it.
If COH != OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = ATK.CRP(OWN.COH)
CRP(OWN.COH) = NCS
RSP.CORP != NCS
TSK = ATK.NCS until NCS != OWN.COH
If COH = OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = PLY.COH
If TSK = PLY.COH Then NCS.RLV = 0
Is... Is that..? That's the very style of code output by the service droids in Praetoria. I don't know the language itself, but I think I understand it. I don't suppose I could request a translation to Java or C++, so everyone else can understand it?
Is... Is that..? That's the very style of code output by the service droids in Praetoria. I don't know the language itself, but I think I understand it. I don't suppose I could request a translation to Java or C++, so everyone else can understand it?
I'll do my best
I gleefully rub my hands and delight in the downfall of the corporate decisionmakers who chose to close COH.
Admittedly, the secretary, the janitor, the average Joes and Jills who had nothing to do with said decision... them I feel sorry for.
But the rest? They can rot in hell for all I care.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
I wouldn't call their stock tumble a "freefall". But schadenfreude makes it even nicer. Since now we get to see them bounce off the rocks on their way down.
;D
The new official NCsoft themesong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbqvFFdyNqc
welll..DOUBLE BUGGER!
Looks like NCSOFT is going to be getting 686.8 million dollars from Nexon.. Not to mention gone up by 1.39....
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/08/nexon-ncsoft-idUST9E8GV09P20120608?type=companyNews
I love the Praetorian Clockwork language. :) It makes this English teacher smile.
oh..lol...then why was it the first page when I googled ncsoft? lol.
The new official NCsoft themesong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbqvFFdyNqc
If COH != OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = ATK.CRP(OWN.COH)
If City of Heroes isn't owned by a responsible corporation, then we should attack that corporation.
CRP(OWN.COH) = NCS
NCsoft is the corporation that owns City of Heroes.
RSP.CORP != NCS
NCsoft isn't a responsible corporation
TSK = ATK.NCS until NCS != OWN.COH
We should attack NCsoft until NCsoft gives up CoH.
If COH = OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = PLY.COH
Once CoH is owned by a responsible corporation, we should resume playing it.
If TSK = PLY.COH Then NCS.RLV = 0
Once we can play CoH again, NCsoft doesn't matter.
Blah...it's looking like it's trying to rally. 149,500 now.
What is a Praetorian Clockwork language?Glad you asked!
If EMP.MCL.ATK(PRT.WHT) then PRT.WHT = !ALV
EMP.MCL.ATK(PRT.WHT) until PRT.WHT = !ALV
TSK.ABT(TLK(If EMP.MCL.ATK(PRT.WHT) then ?PRT.WHT = ALV));TSK = ESC(PRT.WHT)
Looks like NCSOFT is going to be getting 686.8 million dollars from Nexon...
... proud ... Triplash ... excellent ... translation ...
Clockwork, when speaking, use a simple code-like abbreviation of the English language. Clockwork-speak is different from the speech of ordinary citizens
Not to mention the joke books:
?RSN = CKN(CRS.ROD)
RSN = GLR(EMP.MCL)
That is the funniest thing I have seen all day! ;D?RSN = CKN(CRS.ROD)
RSN = GLR(EMP.MCL)
Why did the chicken cross the road?
For the glory of Emperor Marcus Cole.
Right? :)
....
Why did the chicken cross the road?
For the glory of Emperor Marcus Cole.
Right? :)
That is the funniest thing I have seen all day! ;D
Listening to Rikti speak makes me want to exclaim:
"Subject: Your English, terrible"
Listening to Rikti speak makes me want to exclaim:
"Subject: Your English, terrible"
"Subject:English, terrible: yours" or similar I'd have thoughtYou're both close.
SLF.STS = BRN:HRTYeah, sometimes trying to read those makes my BRN:HRT too.
Yeah, sometimes trying to read those makes my BRN:HRT too.At least it's not as bad as trying to figure out what your average Resistance member is trying to say. Or puzzling out the tortured mess of Resistance Clockwork output.
English: yours: terrible.Look out folks, we have a genuine Rikti among us.
?RSN = CKN(CRS.ROD)
RSN = GLR(EMP.MCL)
SPK:RKT.CWK.HYB = SLF.EVD
SLF.STS = BRN:HRT
REQ(MED:PAIN)
I have my first signature thanks to you <3
(cranky settings won't let me put it in a shiny quote box though ;-;)
Now you just need to add Resistance into that and have Dillo speak it, and your journey to the dark side will be complete.Look, pal. I may be a megalomaniacal spider-themed villain intent on one day usurping Lord Recluse and controlling the known world. I'm also fairly decent at puzzling out odd robotic/extradimensional/extraterrestrial dialects of English.
Some people are buying, assuming that NCSoft has completely bottomed out and they are getting a bargain that will rise.
This might ALSO reflect Nexon buying NCSoft stock in an effort to get, not just a controlling, but a majority share. They won't do it too fast though, because they won't want to make the price rise.
this seems the most logical to me, and if it is the case, its looking more and more like ncsoft might get taken over by nexon in the next yearIf so, then VV was probably right - NCSoft might not be our real foe here. If they're just Nexon's puppet now, then it was probably Nexon that ordered the hit on CoH, even if NCSoft pulled the trigger.
Nexon doesn't have controlling ownership, they don't have majority ownership, they simply got 15% ownership. They haven't put anyone onto the board of directors. The only thing they can do with that much stock is to crash the price by dumping it onto the market all at once. That's a great threat except they've already lost 40% of their money during it's crash. How much more money are they willing to lose?
Again, every stock transaction has a buyer. People are buying the stock because they either think the sell off is an overreaction or the stock is now at a price that's more reasonable in relation to the company's fundamentals, as in sales and profits. Since the stock went up today people either thought the hit it took a couple a days ago was too much or it could simply be a case of "rising tide raises all boats". Don't normally follow the Korean exchange too closely.
Here in the states, we have a slew of investment types who have declared the PC as dead, being replaced by smartphones and tablets. Because of that hardware and software companies that specialize in PCs are also being poo-pooed. Now I imagine this isn't a US trend, the PC is dead, but a world wide one and in Korea a online game company that's primary sources of income are from PC games are also on investor's naughty lists along with PC Bangs (PC gaming cafes) and hard drive companies.
Looking at Nexon's 3rd quarter numbers show that their Korean sales are down 20% year to year and 22% in North America. For Nexon their biggest market is China and it's growing quickly.
Now if Nexon or NCSoft can come out with a popular MMO that's scalable on smartphones to tablets, I would imagine their stocks will shoot up again.
As for PCs being dead, I say again, if you want to track how many PCs are operating, you don't track the number of new PC sales, you track the number of sales of high end video cards. People are no longer buying new PCs every year or so, they are upgrading instead. The PC is far from dead.
PC gamers still play on PCs and not consoles for a reason. Mobile devices won't change that.
Every couple of years, someone trots themselves out to go stand on some digital street-corner and loudly announces that the Death of PC gaming is nigh via some long-winded article. They always manage to get a few converts to sip that particular Kool-Aid and chime in, but most of us just look at them askance and say "Uh, yeah, whatever" and call it a day. They've been wrong every time in the past, and they will continue to be wrong for the foreseeable future.
Rivalry? There's a lot of conflict between proponents of various platforms so if one of them died out or faded into insignificance, it would make their claims that their own preferred platform is "best" slightly more credible.
People are no longer buying new PCs every year or so, they are upgrading instead.Unless they skimped so long on upgrading critical parts that the machine can't really be upgraded.
Unless they skimped so long on upgrading critical parts that the machine can't really be upgraded.
Or is PC just not seen as being worth the trouble because a PC can't follow you around during your day and spam you with ads?
What I can never grasp is, why is there such an obsession with it in the first place? Nobody would keep saying things like this if they weren't hoping for it to be true.
Most people game on a console not a PC.
What I can never grasp is, why is there such an obsession with it in the first place? Nobody would keep saying things like this if they weren't hoping for it to be true.
There's nothing stopping one of them from competing in the PC market though. Compatibility between platforms is easier now than it has been at any other time in gaming history.
Or is PC just not seen as being worth the trouble because a PC can't follow you around during your day and spam you with ads?
Which has been the case for a good many years now. And yet there's still a market for PC gaming. Its not nearly as big as it used to be, but it survives.Yes but from a PoV of a stock market analyst, they are looking for companies that cater to huge markets or supply materials to companies that cater to huge markets. And right now they aren't seeing PCs as being a product that sells into a huge market (consumer/home) anymore.
At this point my only comment is, when NCSoft is delisted I can throw a party. :P
When NCSoft is in ashes, then you have my permission to party.
I don't know of anyone who buys a PC every year.I think the least amount of time I've gone between new systems was about two years, but I have three systems running.
I bring the chips!
Yes but from a PoV of a stock market analyst, they are looking for companies that cater to huge markets or supply materials to companies that cater to huge markets. And right now they aren't seeing PCs as being a product that sells into a huge market (consumer/home) anymore.
I bring the chips!
Make em sweet-onion flavor chips, and I'm down! :D
Steam is telling me there are 4,621,711 people on it right now. Is that not big?Compared to 1.26 million XBox 360 sales in the US just during the month of November and over 500,000 PS3 sales during Black Friday weekend, no it's not big.
For those old enough I got this recipe for a cocktail called a Triforce
Goldschlager - Gannon
99 Bananas - Zelda
Captain Morgan Black - Link
In that order in a shot glass.
Compared to 1.26 million XBox 360 sales in the US just during the month of November and over 500,000 PS3 sales during Black Friday weekend, no it's not big.
Anyways that's just people logged in to Steam. Heck I'm logged into Steam but I'm not playing any games right now.
Since FatherXmas was taken I'm using another former CoH character, AtomicSamuraiRobot as my Steam name.
with a padded lapdesk I got from an Old Fart catalog
Here's another thing that all those analysts are not taking into account.
The West is getting older.
If you intend to market to the US, the UK and Europe, you ignore the Aging of the West to your peril. As the West ages, and people discover the sort of setup that my father in law and I have, I would expect PC Games to get more, not less, popular.
I'm not seeing any damage control efforts from NCSoft. We're hitting them with everything we have, and there's no opposition.
Are we beneath their notice? Their declining stock belies that. Several times our efforts have immediately preceeded a tumble.
Perhaps they're not answering because what we're saying is true, and answering would only draw more attention.
But then, they would mount a media compaign touting them and their recent efforts, trying to outshout us, especially before Christmas.
It feels like they're turtle-ing, trying to hide behind language barriers until this blows over. I wish we had more ears and voices in Korea.
What's their next move?
Well there are a number of answers to that, and without having an insider on the ground in NCSoft Seoul, we are not going to know.I agree, I think the article in The Korea Times made the average person in Korea aware of what NCSoft did and on face value, shutting down a game that was making money, seems odd for a company whose 2nd quarter was in the red for the first time in years. Bad press from a widely read local source (as oppose to US/EU MMO gaming websites) about a game that was not really known about in their gaming press sort of added fuel to the sell off which had died down for a while.
It could very well be that we are considered to unimportant to bother with. That could be because we are Western and a fraction of their market. Or, because we really are NOT affecting the stock plunge that much (there are a number of factors affecting it at the moment, although I think the fact that it dropped 12,500 won after the article in the Korean Times has a good 60% chance of being a solid hit on our part). Or, because we are insignificant because we are (or were) mere customers, and our job is to sit down, shut up, and take what we are given.
It could be because they are still following the H & K strategy of hiding in the bunker. It's one they are comfortable with, as a culture. Hide from something long enough, it will get tired and go away.
It also could be because (WARNING! DONNING TIN FOIL HAT!) what we have here is a war invisible to us going on between Nexon and NCSoft, in which Nexon is attempting to gobble up its nearest competitor. I do have some interesting facts. Speculations I will put in [] brackets.
Taek Jin Kim divorced his first wife recently [early this year?]. He had to give her half of his 60% share of NCSoft as part of the settlement. [we don't know what happened to that 30% of NCSoft stock]
He then married his second wife, who is a former Nexon executive.
He then sold half of his remaining stock to Nexon. [rumor has it he would like to sell the rest]
Second wife is put in charge of NCSoft West.
Guild Wars sells 2 million copies, although they were expecting it to sell 6 million, based on the number of sold copies of GW1. One reason it only sold two million is because they shut off sales, claiming they weren't ready to handle that many all at once, thus chopping off a lot of impulse purchases. [WTF? you boast that you EXPECT to sell 6 million copies and you aren't ready to handle that number when you go on sale??]
NCSoft West unilaterally murders CoH.
[Now, if I were going to try to take over a company, the easiest way is through the bedroom, not the boardroom. CoH would just be collateral damage in a greater war. Distract the CEO. Give bad advice. Drive stock prices down, buy the stock when it bottoms out through proxies until you have the majority share, then come in and fire everyone that isn't one of your stooges.]
Well there are a number of answers to that, and without having an insider on the ground in NCSoft Seoul, we are not going to know.
It could very well be that we are considered to unimportant to bother with. That could be because we are Western and a fraction of their market. Or, because we really are NOT affecting the stock plunge that much (there are a number of factors affecting it at the moment, although I think the fact that it dropped 12,500 won after the article in the Korean Times has a good 60% chance of being a solid hit on our part). Or, because we are insignificant because we are (or were) mere customers, and our job is to sit down, shut up, and take what we are given.
It could be because they are still following the H & K strategy of hiding in the bunker. It's one they are comfortable with, as a culture. Hide from something long enough, it will get tired and go away.
It also could be because (WARNING! DONNING TIN FOIL HAT!) what we have here is a war invisible to us going on between Nexon and NCSoft, in which Nexon is attempting to gobble up its nearest competitor. I do have some interesting facts. Speculations I will put in [] brackets.
Taek Jin Kim divorced his first wife recently [early this year?]. He had to give her half of his 60% share of NCSoft as part of the settlement. [we don't know what happened to that 30% of NCSoft stock]
He then married his second wife, who is a former Nexon executive.
He then sold half of his remaining stock to Nexon. [rumor has it he would like to sell the rest]
Second wife is put in charge of NCSoft West.
Guild Wars sells 2 million copies, although they were expecting it to sell 6 million, based on the number of sold copies of GW1. One reason it only sold two million is because they shut off sales, claiming they weren't ready to handle that many all at once, thus chopping off a lot of impulse purchases. [WTF? you boast that you EXPECT to sell 6 million copies and you aren't ready to handle that number when you go on sale??]
NCSoft West unilaterally murders CoH.
[Now, if I were going to try to take over a company, the easiest way is through the bedroom, not the boardroom. CoH would just be collateral damage in a greater war. Distract the CEO. Give bad advice. Drive stock prices down, buy the stock when it bottoms out through proxies until you have the majority share, then come in and fire everyone that isn't one of your stooges.]
Kosmos, it was Brian Clayton who told me that Song-yee Yoon was the CEO of NCSoftcore West; I'm going to assume that since he was reporting to her, he knows what he is talking about.
At the moment, I cannot remember where the information that she was once a Nexon Exec came from, but it was in an article in the gaming press, and no one corrected it.
The information that he had split a 60% share with the ex was extrapolation from an article that said he had to "split" his share with his ex-wife. I assumed (incorrectly, obviously) that since he had 30% he must have originally held 60%. "Split" to me implies "divided in half."
I would love to know where in that timeline Yoon was promoted to CEO of NCSoftcore West--before, or after selling the stock to Nexon?
I did warn you it was a tin-foil-hat conspiracy theory. This is what happens when you give a writer very little data to go on.
Dear Lord! That is one stone-cold rotten-to-the-bones woman.
Kosmos, it was Brian Clayton who told me that Song-yee Yoon was the CEO of NCSoftcore West; I'm going to assume that since he was reporting to her, he knows what he is talking about.
He's a bloke, this Lee Jae-ho. Here's the photo from the article :-The only Enron connection was that he once worked for Arthur Anderson and there was a cover up at Arthur Anderson about Enron. Arthur Anderson was a world wide accounting agency with 85,000 employees. Unless Colette has something that ties him to Enron, it's simple guilt by association. It would be equivalent to blaming a chemical engineer working for Dow Chemical in the US for the Bhopal Tragedy.
(https://i.imgur.com/kOhN0.jpg)
I didn't know about the Enron connection, Colette...most enlightening! If their Chief Financial Officer was involved in that, it might explain how so many weird figures show up in their accounting reports - and how ArenaNet doesn't in fact seem to show up at all for years. I believe that's what they called in the Enron incident : "creative accounting" ;)
While we all loved the game, do we really know for certain that it was in fact making money and not some fancy financial account involved?
With CoH there has not been a single word along those lines. Which suggests that they were at least breaking even, or making a modest profit.
...
While we all loved the game, do we really know for certain that it was in fact making money and not some fancy financial account involved?
I mean, NCSofts behavior as it relates to the CoX decisions, is exactly in line with the behavior of a company that is trying to cover up something.
In other words, NCSoft could have pared down costs and continued running CoH for a trivial sum, easily recouped. Okay, we have verifiable mathematic proof that these guys are douchebags.
Meanwhile, they seem to have stabilized a bit. http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) Let's see how they hold up against our next salvo.
Guild Wars sells 2 million copies, although they were expecting it to sell 6 million, based on the number of sold copies of GW1. One reason it only sold two million is because they shut off sales, claiming they weren't ready to handle that many all at once, thus chopping off a lot of impulse purchases. [WTF? you boast that you EXPECT to sell 6 million copies and you aren't ready to handle that number when you go on sale??]
This may seem like stating the obvious but it's plain to me that something is seriously messed up at NCSoft. Something is going on in the background that we aren't aware of. I think something big is about to happen there. I feel like a person in Hawaii on Dec 6, 1941.
Allegedly they shut off sales because the servers were so overloaded that players zoned in and all but could not move, for the lag. GENIUS!!
Still a very poorly thought out move, but this IS NCStupid we're talking about - so what else would we expect. You don't shut down the kitchen when the hotcakes are flying out the door, that's just stupid.
I'd also like to see a cite on the "expecting 6 million in sales" thing. I hear it thrown around, but as someone who was avidly watching Anet through the beta process, I never saw it. People may be confusing it with the announcement that the GW franchise as a whole sold 6 million units as of April 2009, but I could be wrong, I'd love to see a link.
I found the link to an interview with an NCSoft flack when I was searching three months ago when the shutdown was first announced. NCSofte definitely said confidently they figured on selling 6 million boxes, and part of the reason their stock dropped after the release was that it was only 2 million.
Then let us hope the bombers are going the other direction this time.
It was Anet's decision to shut off sales because their infrastructure was groaning - but at no time was anyone unable to move from lag
I waited to roll a character until CoX shut down, because not only did I want to enjoy CoX till the last minute with no distractions, I wanted to have room to move once I zoned in. Which did work.
It sure would be nice if some people could Save COH without continually bashing GW2.
Someone with a crappy computer making a youtube video doesn't mean much.
Well, with all the fury directed at NCStupid, no surprise everything they run is getting caught in the crossfire, no matter the quality.
Soon as CoH is liberated, we'll forget and move on, and GW2 can continue... until it gets the axe in another fit of caprice.
They've regained their losses and stabilized. I don't like that.
They've regained their losses and stabilized. I don't like that.
I think you're a little overly sensitive on this. Discussing GW2's launch issues and NCStupid's questionable decision to limit new player downloads of the game because their servers were were emitting sparks and small bits of fire, like an Arachnos base map about to explode [we've all been on those maps... "meltdown imminent!"], is not "bashing the game." Its honest statements about a stupid problem that should have been foreseen months before launch of the game. You'd think it'd be all about giving people playing a new game the maxium bonding experience... but no.
I'd be careful with this bloodlust thing I see sometimes popping over on these boards. It doesn't really help our cause and may put off people that would otherwise be sympathetic to it. I know, NCsoft isn't exactly our best buddy right now, but hey, I have already seen accusations of a smear campaign going on against them on the talk page in their Wikipedia article. So please cool your heads a little bit.
People who've just lost one home aren't going to flock to help out the people trying to burn their new one down.
I am sorry if other NCSoft games like Guild Wars are being damaged by our actions, (well... not Blade and Soul. It's plain creepy!) but NCSoft will forevermore carefully consider when closing their games, so I'm confident we're actually contributing to Guild Wars' long-term survival and well-being.
"I have already seen accusations of a smear campaign going on against them on the talk page in their Wikipedia article."
That would actually be true. We are telling the unpleasant truth about NCSoft, as loud as we possibly can. NCSoft would be well served to ask "why are our former customers so furious with us that they're waging a smear campaign?"
We're not just kids upset because a toy's been taken from us.
Perpetrating a smear campaign and spreading the truth about company's questionable business practices are two different things. The former will not win us many friends and will only further damage our position. Think of what happens if Disney - or any other company we are hoping to take CoH over - sees how we are handling the game closure. Then imagine what they would think would happen if they stepped on our toes, which in business world sometimes happens. Do you think they would race to purchase the game with a buzzing wasp nest that our community is degrading into attached?Yep, this exactly.
Agreed on all these points, actually. (B&S is creepy as hell to me!) It's why I'm still on these boards despite finding a home in GW2 - I honestly believe that our media blitz about COH has caused enough face-losing that they may hesitate to pull a similar move on other MMOs.
We didn't protest or quit playing COH when they closed 4 other MMOs, we all had our blinders on. I actually hope like hell that the fact this group raised our voices and screamed when it happened to us makes me think that NCsoft may have to ask themselves if they want to risk it happening again. Better to cut loose the studio than that - and Anet being cut loose would make me SO freaking happy.
Except that isn't true, so yeah, it's bashing.
GuildWars2 did NOT have server load issues at launch, and the game did NOT become unavailable as a download for a time due to players overloading the servers? Really? Ok then.
I am tempted to ask wh you think the download ability was really pulled, then, but I'm not going to continue to argue about this; it is at best academic. You seem unable to admit the veracity of anything except the aforementioned shining praise when it comes to this issue, so I will leave you in whatever version of MMO reality that you inhabit. Just don't get too attached, because when NCSilly gets the whim to burn it down around everyone's ears, they will do it and be damned to the hindermost. That includes you, btw. They don't care what you think either.
As for your other claim, I have never claimed neutrality. Far from it. I will continue to speak the truth regarding both my experiences in GW2, and my experiences as a customer who had her online home burned to the ground by NCStupid, and then sown with salt.
Perpetrating a smear campaign and spreading the truth about company's questionable business practices are two different things. The former will not win us many friends and will only further damage our position. Think of what happens if Disney - or any other company we are hoping to take CoH over - sees how we are handling the game closure. Then imagine what they would think would happen if they stepped on our toes, which in business world sometimes happens. Do you think they would race to purchase the game with a buzzing wasp nest that our community is degrading into attached?
All NCsoft titles are legitimate targets.
Like this.
Targets for WHAT? What is your goal?
All NCsoft titles are legitimate targets.
Would you like dedicated players of other NCsoft games to lose access to their games just like we did lose access to City of Heroes because, well, we don't have access to City of Heroes anymore? Or am I missing a nuance here?
They can help us out.
They can help us out.
Going back to Sekoia's comment, is "sock puppet' another substitution?
Nope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet))
After we spoil their fun? Hardly likely. Of course if I'm reading what you're saying right, because frankly it's really hard to communicate this way.
After we spoil their fun? Hardly likely. Of course if I'm reading what you're saying right, because frankly it's really hard to communicate this way.
Guys, while we've been talking, NCsoft has risen back to 157k won (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS). over the weekend between Dec. 7th and Dec. 10th, they somehow rose from 145k to 152k.
I'm not happy about this development.
I think the least amount of time I've gone between new systems was about two years, but I have three systems running.Every computer I've had since 1997 was built from parts. Usually, I will swap the Hard Drive from the old one to the new one so I don't have to go through the whole re-installation of everything every time. This last computer I built I didn't do that.
I just upgrade components in my gaming PC until the motherboard isn't able to support it anymore (recently replaced it due to the fact that I just couldn't get new AGP graphics cards anymore), but my last file server had been up and running since 1998 (and still on Windows 98) when I finally replaced it a couple of years ago. My laptop is still doing just fine after a memory upgrade or two over the years and I think I've had it since '05 or '06.
Aside from the laptop, I've been buying components and building my own systems since about 2000. Since they don't track new PC sales by looking at components, I've spent a whole lot of money they aren't taking into account.
a PC requires: 1 upgrade ~5 +/- 2 years to keep up with the current games (or if parts die) which runs ~$1500-2000 for high end components (assuming brand new full upgrade, individual parts vary and can be less), can play pretty much any game regardless of generation so your games dont become "obsolete" after 2 generations, and can get games MUCH cheaper (IE through steam very easy to buy most games <$20 with how often they do sales, even on new $60 games)To quote a line from Independence Day, "Uh... Mr. President. That's not entirely accurate. " I have a few PC games that just will not play on Operating Systems that are newer than Win98. It has to do with how they access memory and the changes in how the newer Operating Systems allow programs to access memory. I tend to not upgrade my OS until I'm forced to. In fact, I won't be able to play X-Com: Enemy Unknown (http://www.xcom.com/enemyunknown/ (http://www.xcom.com/enemyunknown/)) unless I get Vista or Windows 7
If someone came in here and said they were an Aion subscriber, as much as that game annoys me for its possible connections to the closing of CoH... if they were throwing their load in with us, I would happily accept them.
Guys, while we've been talking, NCsoft has risen back to 157k won (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS). over the weekend between Dec. 7th and Dec. 10th, they somehow rose from 145k to 152k.
I'm not happy about this development.
Frog, I don't think any of us are looking to totally "shut down" ncsoft, but:
Frankly want NCStupid gone, so that the inevitable CoX emulator can remain unchallenged.
If Arenanet has a suicide buy-back option, all the better. GW2 will remain untouched, NC can burn right down to the ground for all of me. And I'm absolutely serious. NC does not care about us.
Why would I care about such a bunch of killswitch-throwers, in return?
GG is. She's said as much, she includes directly targetting their other MMOs, and she's the leader of one of the Plan Z projects the whole site is associated with. That's part of the problem. There's a sizable and vocal contingent here who are totally willing to burn the witch and take the whole village with her.
Frankly want NCStupid gone, so that the inevitable CoX emulator can remain unchallenged.
Frog, I don't think any of us are looking to totally "shut down" ncsoft, but:
3) To influence this change, though, we have carrots and sticks... and at this stage we're left with more sticks. NCSoft apparently thinks that people don't care about these things, they won't do anything. They'll "weather the storm," stick to their old ways, and continue to be a risk to players of their still-existing titles. If NCSoft's sales falters, they may see that CUSTOMERS DO CARE about this, and realize that a big public reversal in policy may be to their strategic advantage. If their investors become uncertain, then they'll realize that their investors may care and likewise seek to make changes. The bigger and broader our impact the more likely they'll have to reconsider their processes.
Dividing amongst ourselves, and hurting other gamers/games, will not help us "against" NCSoft, or for City of Heroes.Well said.
It's easy to be against something.
It's a lot harder to be FOR something.
In the same vein as not labeling eachothers as sock puppets, sell outs, sparkling pegacorns, etc, let's also try not to reach out for something to attack. Yes, NCSoft wronged us. Yes, I'd be happy for them to crash too. But we arent watching their stock prices because we all got together to watch the company die. "This is a Save Paragon City!" board, not a "Destroy NCSoft!" board, and its important to remember that. Yes, NCSoft having financial leverage against them helps us. Yes, them being in a less than advantageous position helps us.
But I think the more we start encouraging, accepting, going down the route of collateral damage, the less we look like something worth supporting - and this isn't really just about us.
CoH being shut down like it was represents a blow against gamers and -consumers- globally. It shows possible international bias causing harm to consumers who were in good faith supporting a product, and a company, only for everything to go away because someone wanted it to - not because it was harming shareholders or a company at large.
CoH being shut down when older games are still going, some not even in maintenance mode, is a blow against old-but-proffitable. Tripple A titles are not all that the gaming industry wants, or needs right now. They look shiny and pretty, but the smaller scene, indy games, lower budget titles, MMORPGs still making money but-not-WoW-levels, these all still have value.
This is a GAMER cause. This is a GAMER issue.
If someone came in here and said they were an Aion subscriber, as much as that game annoys me for its possible connections to the closing of CoH... if they were throwing their load in with us, I would happily accept them.
Because they could get hurt like us.
Because we were one internet, one gaming community, and one people who enjoy having fun by pressing buttons and having a character do stuff on screen.
Remembering this can only make us stronger :)
Well said.
IMHO Aion is probably next in line to feel the executioner's axe and not the GW games so it'd be in their self-interest to throw in with #SaveCoH before there needs to be a #SaveAion.
At least Aion in the Western market; I don't have the link available here at work, but while researching the history of Korean MMOs I ran across a statement that NCSoft had paid for computer upgrades at many cyber cafes in Korea so that they would have the specs to be able to run Aion, otherwise the game would have fallen flatter there than "City of Hero" did, from sheer lack of ability to play it.Which is why the "hey lets build an MMO on FPS engine XYZ, it'll look awesome" is normally a bad idea. Back on the old forums someone was asking for a new CoH done on the CryEngine 3 engine. There's a good reason it's called "Cry"Engine other than the name of the company.
It sure would be nice if some people could Save COH without continually bashing GW2.
*cough*
I have certain inside information that Carbine is only getting "axe delayed" notifications in 2 month increments now.
In other words, the axe is being held over their heads in a threatening manner, followed by "well you get another two months" when the two month deadline runs out.
*cough*
I have certain inside information that Carbine is only getting "axe delayed" notifications in 2 month increments now.
In other words, the axe is being held over their heads in a threatening manner, followed by "well you get another two months" when the two month deadline runs out.
*cough*Is there the possibility that, should NCsoftcore decide to "recoup" its "losses" and drop said axe on Carbine, that they will spin it as the fault of the once-and-future COHmmunity? Or would that be too blatantly Sirrocco-level chutzpah?
I have certain inside information that Carbine is only getting "axe delayed" notifications in 2 month increments now.
In other words, the axe is being held over their heads in a threatening manner, followed by "well you get another two months" when the two month deadline runs out.
Is there the possibility that, should NCsoftcore decide to "recoup" its "losses" and drop said axe on Carbine, that they will spin it as the fault of the once-and-future COHmmunity? Or would that be too blatantly Sirrocco-level chutzpah?
EA at some point, blamed the failure of SWTOR on 4chan...
4chan is responsible for everything wrong with the internet, everyone knows that. /sarcasm
4chan is responsible for everything wrong with the internet, everyone knows that. /sarcasm
Is there the possibility that, should NCsoftcore decide to "recoup" its "losses" and drop said axe on Carbine, that they will spin it as the fault of the once-and-future COHmmunity? Or would that be too blatantly Sirrocco-level chutzpah?
Yes, I just saw a thread there about how they were going to hack Titan network and unbold the "g" in your post.
OMG they did it! 0_o
....OMG....4chan is Lord Nemesis!
THE PRUSSIAN PRINCE OF LULZ!
Stock seems to be climbing since the announcement earlier.
...I have never understood this.I think that is best.
I have never understood this.
Markets Fluctuate.
Market reporters trade in the false concept that the explanation for each day's change is clear and knowable.
....OMG....4chan is Lord Nemesis!This makes perfect sense.
For what it is worth, a few words were dropped in the shell-like ear of the Korean Times journalist. We made some observations and suggested he might look into a couple things. One, if he merely raises questions about it, is going to make things very uncomfortable for NCSoft. The other, while mere speculation, if by some possibility is true....would be a bombshell.
And while your minds are spinning, I will offer the following observation.
When Paragon Points or GW Gems or other in-game currency that requires hard cash are purchased in the marketplaces, the money goes straight to NCSoft via their third-party store. That money remains with NCSoft until the points are cashed in at the game. Only then does the game studio get credit for that influx of money and have it go on their side of the ledger.
So if a large number of F2P accounts would purchase points or gems, NOT cash them in, and cancel the accounts, NCSoft would get a large influx of money...that would never be credited as income to the game studio.
And one might speculate why someone would do something like that. Why on earth would someone want to transfer money to another entity and get nothing from it? (Hint: Two words. First word: rhymes with honey. Second word: rhymes with maundering)
I believe the moral of this story is to never, ever anger VV.
Hmmm...
But... but... isn't bunny sauntering illegal in most countries??
*scratches head*
OK, this just made an association that, for me, ruined the humor of the thread. Fortunately, if you haven't seen the Ken Burns special on the Dust Bowl, you're safe. Also, if you didn't read EK's post as "bunny sundering." :D
I must now take the feat Improved Bunny Sundering.Because they are no ordinary rabbits...
It lets you sunder bunnies without an attack of opportunity being provoked.
>.>
I don't know what's worse. That VV put this idea forward...or that the more I look through things, the more this speculative theory suddenly makes all their actions make perfect sense.Wow...We totally need to look into this. It makes too much sense.
I must now take the feat Improved Bunny Sundering.
It lets you sunder bunnies without an attack of opportunity being provoked.
Here is the walkthrough:
>.>
I know I had several thousand at the end on each of my accounts, that I had been gotten to get that last rewards tier and was hoarding to use for new powersets / costume sets as they came out.
After the shutdown announcement I didn't see much of a point in spending them, but now I'm kind of wishing that I had.
Well, post-shutdown, who knows if the updating mechanism still credited the spent points to Paragon, since it was no longer extant?
Sorry VV, you and the legal system have very different definitions of Bunny Saundering. NCSoft handling of the proxy game currency is totally legal and makes sense back when they introduced NCCoin, which was suppose to be a multigame currency. Same could apply to gaming time sold in Korea and other Asian countries for their "native" MMOs or the NCSoft generic time cards sold here. Of course it adds another layer of accounting, tracking how much proxy currency that was spent that wasn't rewarded either ingame or part of a subscription, and then credit it as income from the game.
Plus they aren't getting all the money if the proxy currency is bought in a store front. Retailers get a cut and here in the US a fair chunk of those cards are handled by one company and they get their cut before the publisher sees any of it. This is why BestBuy still sells CoH Game Cards. Until the card company tells them it's OK to pull them and will provide the retailer with credit (or cards for other games still in business) they are contractually obligated to display them.
Actually if you want to extend your explanation, all box sales first go in NCSoft's coffers and then credited to each game.
Listen I get it. What NCSoft did to Paragon and us out of the blue was wrong at the very least a PR perspective. However you can't imply malfeasance in any legal business practice that you find objectionable. Attempting to drive down the stock price of NCSoft doesn't hurt them. It hurts the people that own the stock but NCSoft got their money way back when the stock first went public. A stock price is a reflection what investors think of a company, but as long as the company is profitable the stock price is immaterial to it's operations. At best it's a source of pride. NCSoft doesn't hire talent with attractive stock options. They aren't Google.
The only time when the stock went down because someone here did something was VV's comments for The Korea Times piece, and that's loss has been erased with this restructuring of the western subsidiaries. The Unity rally was great for us and generated a lot of western press but zero in Korea where most of their investors are. Any drop in the stock between them and the 3Q numbers release is entirely due to NCSoft repeatedly missing their sales targets combined with a downturn in the industry as well as the worldwide economy. I also imagine that those with their ears to the ground got a strong hint about the direction the 3Q numbers were heading, likely from their PC Bang game rankings of all their games and got out before the pancake hit the fan. Those who didn't, had only a partial picture (B&S hits #1 in PC Bangs but ignored the Lineage and Aion rankings) and/or believed NCSoft was about ready to skyrocket again saw these drops as buying opportunities which is why the stock rebounded several times on the way down.
I'm not raining on your parade but simply trying to put some perspective into this. All that driving the stock price down is only going to make them into a easier target for someone to take them over and that's it. But as long as their sales are growing and profits are comparable to other online gaming companies, then the stock will never be driven below book value or below the range what the industry's P/E ratio says it should be.
I know I had several thousand points at the end on each of my accounts, that I had bought to get that last rewards tier and was hoarding to use for new powersets / costume sets as they came out.
I had four or five thousand on my account, as well. I was saving them for the all the costume packs and powersets that were in the I24 beta. And for the second round of super packs.THIS. I stocked up on Paragon Points to purchase all the new stuff coming out with I24 and then Black Friday happened. :'(
I had a little over 9600 points still there.(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=images3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20091225205919%2Fmeme%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F2%2F20%2FOver9000S.jpg%2F180px-Over9000S.jpg)
I never said it wasn't legal. It's perfectly legal. It's also wide open to Honey Maundering. That's why Honey Maundering is so widespread, it uses legal ways to clean illicit cash.I'm sorry, I know you are a wordsmith by profession but illicit includes illegal in it's default definition. It's not a word one chooses by accident when discussing the activities of a company when you didn't mean to imply malfeasance.
And if you were trying to put another level of obfuscation between you and the company (NCSoft Interactive) that you had been using to Maunder Honey, wouldn't you close that company and resell its assets to another shell company?
I'm sorry, I know you are a wordsmith by profession but illicit includes illegal in it's default definition. It's not a word one chooses by accident when discussing the activities of a company when you didn't mean to imply malfeasance.
When Paragon Points or GW Gems or other in-game currency that requires hard cash are purchased in the marketplaces, the money goes straight to NCSoft via their third-party store. That money remains with NCSoft until the points are cashed in at the game. Only then does the game studio get credit for that influx of money and have it go on their side of the ledger.
So if a large number of F2P accounts would purchase points or gems, NOT cash them in, and cancel the accounts, NCSoft would get a large influx of money...that would never be credited as income to the game studio.
And one might speculate why someone would do something like that. Why on earth would someone want to transfer money to another entity and get nothing from it? (Hint: Two words. First word: rhymes with honey. Second word: rhymes with maundering)
At least it wasn't 9000 of these:
(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/KansasCrawford/Funny%20Pics/Over9000bucks.jpg)
They have one of those right?
Where, in this statement, did I use the word "illicit?" It does not exist in this statement.Obviously not there. However between this
And one might speculate why someone would do something like that. Why on earth would someone want to transfer money to another entity and get nothing from it? (Hint: Two words. First word: rhymes with honey. Second word: rhymes with maundering)
I never said it wasn't legal. It's perfectly legal. It's also wide open to Honey Maundering. That's why Honey Maundering is so widespread, it uses legal ways to clean illicit cash.You are certainly suggesting something not on the up and up.
And if you were trying to put another level of obfuscation between you and the company (NCSoft Interactive) that you had been using to Maunder Honey, wouldn't you close that company and resell its assets to another shell company?
Each of those will be worth five Korean Wons.And you are now my favorite person of the day. Anyone who paraphrases Raul Julia's hilariously over the top M. Bison is tops in my book.
That is the exchange rate the bank of Korea will set... AFTER I'VE KIDNAPPED THEIR QUEEN.
They have one of those right?
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.corvusonline.net%2Fforum_images%2FDidntSeeThatDidYouBISON.jpg)
And you are now my favorite person of the day. Anyone who paraphrases Raul Julia's hilariously over the top M. Bison is tops in my book.
Raul Julia's M. Bison may be one of the best things to happen to film ever.
If I could somehow edit a movie together to combine Reb Brown clips (Space Mutiny, Captain America, etc) with Street Fighter to make them nemesi, I think it would make the best thing ever.
Raul Julia's hilariously over the top M. Bison
Best damn quote of the movie - and possibly one of the top 5 villain quotes of all time:
Chun Li: You and your bullies were driven back by farmers with pitchforks! My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away! A hero... at a thousand paces.
Bison: I'm sorry. I don't remember any of it.
Chun Li: You don't remember?
Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.
M. Bison vs NCSoft
you poeple make me sad, whenever i see m. bison (written or pic) the first thing that comes to my mind is reichsman and all the time i enjoyed beating on him in barracuda sfI noticed that. Perhaps Reichsman's getup was a shout-out to Bison?
I remember when Keith Richards...no, wait, he's always looked like that.
No, I'm just old.
I remember when Paul McCartney didn't look like Angela Lansbury.
I remember when Keith Richards...no, wait, he's always looked like that.
Actually, before all the booze/drugs mage his face look like a bas-relief map of Outer Mongolia, he wasn't bad looking...
(https://i.imgur.com/Yi37A.jpg)
I remember when Paul McCartney didn't look like Angela Lansbury.
It's not a Nemesis front company.
So. . . we have always complained that City never got any advertising. What is it I see on Fandango's site when I go to order tickets for The Hobbit?
An ad for Guild Wars 2. :|
I have no idea what any of you are talking about.No problem, you just want to see one of the biggest chunky movies of all time (that's "me" on the floating appartus)
I can say at less the Dead or Alive movie D.O.A was better then Van Dam's Street Fighter.Yes, D.O.A was better. That's what makes Van Damme's film So Bad It's Good :)
But really how hard is it to make a video game in to a movie Hollywood?!
I can say at less the Dead or Alive movie D.O.A was better then Van Dam's Street Fighter.With or without executive meddling turning the plot and characters inside out?
But really how hard is it to make a video game in to a movie Hollywood?!
And another in the previews. Way to tarnish an otherwise decent and much-needed night out for me, NCsoft >:(
Sitting in movie theater and saw a guild wars 2 commercial.
Someone said out loud "Don't play it! They closed City of Heroes and treated the fans horribly!"
Applause erupted.
Well then you'll be happy to hear about this posting at the Save City of Heroes FB page:
Seriously?
Seriously?
Please tell me seriously. It's almost too awesome too believe.
Seriously?
Seriously?
Please tell me seriously. It's almost too awesome too believe.
BTW - the guy clarified that Arenanet wasn't even mentioned or referenced in the advertisement, which to me seemed rather curious. I don't know if that's normal. But at minimum, it means that people were reacting to the NCSoft logo and not to Arenanet. That's good. Try not to hate on Anet. Just focus on NCSoft.
Best damn quote of the movie - and possibly one of the top 5 villain quotes of all time:Good times. When Mako invaded Pinnacle, it was on a Tuesday, so yeah, we yelled a paraphrase of that at him.
Chun Li: You and your bullies were driven back by farmers with pitchforks! My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away! A hero... at a thousand paces.
Bison: I'm sorry. I don't remember any of it.
Chun Li: You don't remember?
Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.
Well then you'll be happy to hear about this posting at the Save City of Heroes FB page:
Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.
For who now is your father if it is not me? I am the well spring, from which you flow. When I am gone, you will have never been. What would your world be, without me?
fungible commodity.
NCsoft is not Crey. It's not a Nemesis front company. It's a business with an eye on the bottom line, troubled stocks, and internal politics, separated from most of us by an ocean and a very different culture (business and otherwise).
I would not like to be made into fungi.
Different origin -- 'fungible' comes from the same root as 'function'. What it means . . .
Its called a puuuuun :'(
There it goes, all my funniness is used up. Time to go on youtube and start making comedy videos, or start pitching my jokes to square enix for their localizations. :gonk:
They should have thought of that waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before making tens of thousands of new enemies, all on a whim.THIS
I feel zero sympathy.
Its called a puuuuun :'(
There it goes, all my funniness is used up. Time to go on youtube and start making comedy videos, or start pitching my jokes to square enix for their localizations. :gonk:
So... it looks like last week's boost was just a rock they hit on the way down.
If the company's finances are structurally unsound the price will "tank" that is drop and stay relatively low for the long term. [ie Facebook]While I agree that their stock is overvalued (I think 90,000-100,000 is a good price) they are far from having their finances structurally unsound. However as long as most of the firms following NCSoft keep saying it's a buy opportunity and that the price will go to 300,000 within the year the 150,000-160,000 price seems to be it's new support level.
Everything else is short-term fluctuation.
And what with their shady juggling of finances and stocks and "creative accounting Enron style" they'll look good for even longer.Any proof of that statement, at all. I doubt it.
While I agree that their stock is overvalued (I think 90,000-100,000 is a good price) they are far from having their finances structurally unsound. However as long as most of the firms following NCSoft keep saying it's a buy opportunity and that the price will go to 300,000 within the year the 150,000-160,000 price seems to be it's new support level.Key word is "if". I make no such assessment.
They just had a record profit for a quarter. They have about $100 million in cash in the bank and another $300 million in short term investments. Perhaps you could indicate what about their finances you find structurally unsound or did you think that just sounded good?
Key word is "if". I make no such assessment.Except a plummeting stock price doesn't hurt them. Not one bit.
Down one session versus up the previous session is not "tanking".
I want to see NCSoft feel pain that makes them re-think their "strategy" as much as the next person here. My goal in this thread is to persuade people to disbelieve that day-to-day fluctuations indicate any such thing.
The ugly part is when they spin off NCSoft West to make the division into its own company.Yes but the 78 billion KrW being paid for those assets, plus the 50 billion in initial start up money, is coming from somewhere and that's the stock this new subsidiary is selling to NCSoft proper so it will show up on the balance sheet still and the result is a wash.
Currently, NCSoft West is a department inside the NCSoft machine. After they pull off this restructuring they're talking about, NCSW will be a separate company, but wholly owned by NCSoft.
The company is trumpeting to anyone who'll listen that this move will allow them to "sell" about 78 billion Korean Won in related assets, which sounds really good on paper. The company sells a massive amount of unneeded infrastructure to another company, and makes a ton of profit doing it.
But since NCSW is going to be a wholly-owned subsidiary of the parent company, all they're really doing is restructuring one of their departments, and transferring assets around within the company. No money actually changes hands, except on paper. All the assets and money actually stay within the overall NCSoft corporation. But it looks good on the balance sheet.
So I expect the stock price will shoot up when they make that announcement, even though it doesn't actually *mean* anything...
Except a plummeting stock price doesn't hurt them. Not one bit.Again, addressing a claim I don't make.
Stock prices are simply a reflection of what others think a company is worth, not what it's actually worth.
While I agree that their stock is overvalued (I think 90,000-100,000 is a good price) they are far from having their finances structurally unsound.
While I agree that their stock is overvalued (I think 90,000-100,000 is a good price) they are far from having their finances structurally unsound. However as long as most of the firms following NCSoft keep saying it's a buy opportunity and that the price will go to 300,000 within the year the 150,000-160,000 price seems to be it's new support level.
"Joe," the Korean Times reporter, told me that the suspicion around the paper is that the three firms following NCSoft are being bribed to inflate the value of the stock, but that there is not as yet any proof.
I don't necessarily agree with you; I think that at some point we're going to hear about some dirty laundry coming out about NCsoft. But nevertheless, I'm glad you're here keeping the conversation honest. Is that weird?Nope. This is war, and we should always try to be honest with ourselves how well it's going. Keeping it real - a good thing.
if they find something scandelous happening this could tank ncsoft faster than them constantly shooting themselves in the footNot to be pedantic, but that would be NCsoft shooting themselves in the foot. Well, the leg, anyway. They've kinda blown both feet completely off by now.
"Joe," the Korean Times reporter, told me that the suspicion around the paper is that the three firms following NCSoft are being bribed to inflate the value of the stock, but that there is not as yet any proof.Sadly those three aren't the only ones. I present the summary of analysts tracking NCSoft page (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/analyst?symbol=036570.KS) from Reuters.
Or, something "Joe" suggested to me could break loose and we'll be watching from a distance as NCSoft finds itself with a much bigger problem on its hands than a hundred thousand angry gamers.
From the Jackie Chan/Jeden Smith version:
"Your focus needs more focus."
It's possible they are banking on Bits and Tits becoming as enormous in China as Lineage and Guild Wars are. And it might, but only if the current Chinese government reverses its stance on things it considers pornographic--or at least, looks (or is bribed to look) the other way when the game is released. The Chinese government has historically been perfectly willing to ban things with milder content than B&T.Well the question then is if they look at B&S and see pornography or not. I admit that some of the female dance emotes can be ... suggestive, but no more so than what you would see in a club. The character designer can feel creepy to some but it's not like you have sliders for, pardon me, areola size, nipple size or ... em ... carpet hair styles.
They might pull their fat out of the fire and go on to win, despite a bucketload of negative karma.
Or, something "Joe" suggested to me could break loose and we'll be watching from a distance as NCSoft finds itself with a much bigger problem on its hands than a hundred thousand angry gamers.
I'm not going to make a guess on that one, we'll just have to wait and see.
I'm sorry, I know not of what you speak; Pat Morita is the only Mr. Miyagi to have existed.
Except that Jackie Chan's character was not called Miyagi.
Well the question then is if they look at B&S and see pornography or not. I admit that some of the female dance emotes can be ... suggestive, but no more so than what you would see in a club. The character designer can feel creepy to some but it's not like you have sliders for, pardon me, areola size, nipple size or ... em ... carpet hair styles.I find this sufficiently amusing to ask - do we know that for sure? :)
Well the question then is if they look at B&S and see pornography or not. I admit that some of the female dance emotes can be ... suggestive, but no more so than what you would see in a club. The character designer can feel creepy to some but it's not like you have sliders for, pardon me, areola size, nipple size or ... em ... carpet hair styles.
Personally I don't think they will have a problem with B&S.
Besides the more detailed graphics, I havent seen anything fro mthe photos that I havent seen already in COX (lot of toons wearing the Eden top especially), CO, and other games i.e scantly cladded females with the tit slider slid to the max. Even seen a few "naked" ones in COX where, even in their bio it stated that they are naked (victory server) *white skin to match the bikini bottom and eden top*, another one was same except this one was a light blue peacebringer with blended clothing to give illusion of wearing nothing.I had a pale white peacebringer in white mesh and bikini bottom to give the illusion of nudity. But she also had wings, a halo and glowed rather brightly in that form. It was used as a transition as she changed from her teen pop raver identity to her armored winged Valkyrie outfit.
When B&S come out I'll go check it out to see how deep the rabbit hole it really go in that regards but so far, it's nothing unusual and nothing not seen in COX many times.
I had a pale white peacebringer in white mesh and bikini bottom to give the illusion of nudity.
Sorry to derail the derail of proper ERP dresscode and conduct...No the stock is traded in Korea but you can track it here. They are open from 9a to 3p in Korea which would be from 7pm to 1am EST. Their ID is 036570:KS. Currently they are down 1000 to 157,000. The opened higher and had a trading range from 162,500 to 154,000. This (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS) is the link to Reuter's stock page on them.
I just checked up to see how stocks were doing today (whether or not a dip matters in the long run... its some small entertainment in this otherwise boring life of mine) apparently its done for the day. It certainly can't be the end of the trading day in Korea...
Are they trading stateside now? That's the only reason I could think of, but wouldn't KR and US be separate?
Back off topic...seeing that a friend "wore" peach-colored briefs under his kilt will haunt me forever :gonk:
No the stock is traded in Korea but you can track it here. They are open from 9a to 3p in Korea which would be from 7pm to 1am EST. Their ID is 036570:KS. Currently they are down 1000 to 157,000. The opened higher and had a trading range from 162,500 to 154,000. This (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS) is the link to Reuter's stock page on them.
Came across this on a Facebook page. Thought i'd post it here as it may have some effect on NC stock ( not completely certain about that but hey ).Oh NCSoft/Nexon...when will you learn to stop screwing over your playerbase?
http://www.mmoculture.com/2012/12/lineage-ii-new-europe-server-suffers-mass-account-bans/
Seems quite a lot of accounts on a new Lineage II server have been randomly banned for apparently no reason and that is never good for business.
Hopefully not until they declare bankrupcy. :p
They already appear morally bankrupt.
Does that count?
Came across this on a Facebook page. Thought i'd post it here as it may have some effect on NC stock ( not completely certain about that but hey ).Which appears on the surface a automated script that ran amuck. Reminds me of the great AE ban or before mARTY was fine tuned.
http://www.mmoculture.com/2012/12/lineage-ii-new-europe-server-suffers-mass-account-bans/
Seems quite a lot of accounts on a new Lineage II server have been randomly banned for apparently no reason and that is never good for business.
Totally off-topic tangent, but the comment about people complaining about 'bots made my brain jump to this:
An MMO that uses the Transformers IP and reports hundreds of thousands of player characters, each actually controlled by a 'bot.
"Robots in Disguise."
Larry: Well that is the thing; my money laundering theory depends upon bots like that. You create bots to go buy stuff then delete the account. The items and money are not refunded, they are erased, leaving NCsoft ultimately with stacks of untracable money.
looks like ncsofts stock took another nosedive really recently, its down about 6% at 147,500 won, which is only about 6500 won above their 52 week lowI'm starting to wonder if we need an NCLimp stock price drinking game at this rate... ;)
I'm starting to wonder if we need an NCLimp stock price drinking game at this rate... ;)
Do you *want* alcohol poisoning??
I'm starting to wonder if we need an NCLimp stock price drinking game at this rate... ;)
I need to be sober to work....
*presses button labeled "Canned Mad Scientist Laughter #0172"*
snip
*presses button labeled "Canned Mad Scientist Laughter #0172"*
Don't forget about their faithful sidekick:
http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/3659:JP/chart/ (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/3659:JP/chart/)
I wonder if NCSoft is returning their phone calls.
Just discovered that Nexon are one of the sponsors of English premiership football club Queen's Park Rangers. Not sure if there's anything we can do with this info.And me that the 7th floor toilets were clogged.
Wow, you've got 172 different canned mad scientists laughs? Mine ran out of oxygen somewhere around 12. Beyond that, it was just whimpering and wheezing and an occasional hammering as he tried to get out.
What's your secret?
Should I be drilling air holes in the can?
...Or are you using multiple mad scientists in multiple cans?
...or multiple mad scientists in the same can, I guess.... they do say they're recyclable, after all.
... the cans, not the scientists....
... although....
It's more sinister than that. All of his math is done in base 8 for security. It's actually only 122.Diabolical!
DROP up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, DROP, down, down, down, SUDDEN RISE,up, down, up, down, up, down, up...
What is this, a drinking game or the morning aerobics workout?It's actually NCSoft's attempt to crack the Konami Code.
Pity they decided to stop concentrating on the western market where we have no such regulations, huh?
Nobody should have to do base-8 conversions in their heads!Programmers find base-16 far more useful. ;)
Programmers find base-16 far more useful. ;)Oh, great, next you'll be handing out our secret decoder rings! :roll:
Oh, great, next you'll be handing out our secret decoder rings! :roll:
*presses button labeled "Canned Mad Scientist Laughter #0172"*
You all lead me on a search for mad scientist soundboards... and I am displeased to say that I did not find anything to my liking!! >:(
Closest I found was this, but it's really not very good at all (not great selections, poor audio quality, too much delay from when you start a clip):
Professor Farnsworth Soundboard (http://www.soundboard.com/sb/Professor_Farnsworth_clip)
:roll:
I'm highly disappointed that "Good news. everybody!" is not on there.
It's actually NCSoft's attempt to crack the Konami Code.
Is that the one that gives you $999,999,999,999 for no effort and gives you infinite lives so that your mistakes bring no penalties?
30 lives.
Infinite shame.
Does anyone know when the stock market opens back up in Korea?
As COH fan I'm very happy to see this. I really hope NCSoft goes under and is forced to sell off COH to satisfy investors!
Call me too blueside, but I'm hoping they just see it in their best interest to sell off their old IP they aren't using
Kaiser Tarantula, thanks for the NCSoft stock link. It's more dramatic when you click the ytd or 1 yr, you'll find their stock dropping is readily apparent since the COH closure announcement,
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS
If I were an NCSoft stockholder I'd be VERY WORRIED.
It still raises the question, even if all those analysts are recommending buy - why isn't anyone doing that?If there is a price on the stock that's fluctuating, it's because some people are buying it. Don't worry. Just not enough to make the price rise.
Bearing in mind this is only one reporter talking to me, so who knows...but "Joe," the reporter that interviewed me for the Korean times, indicated at the feeling at the paper is that NCSoft is giving at least some of those analysts kickbacks for their glowing recommendations. He also indicated that this is by no means out of the ordinary over there. If I were to hazard a pure guess, it is that most stockholders are aware of this and not listening to the analysts.
Actually, this is a very serious accusation, comparable to the rumor of money laundering. If Mr "Joe's" theories are reasonably close to the truth, there is something very wrong going on with NCsoft. On the other hand there is little evidence to support these claims. For example would Nexon buy NCsoft shares if they had any reason to suspect them of such shady business practices? Because in both cases we're talking not just lack of ethics, but criminal behaviour. Things that make people go to jail. Surely if a newspaper could come up with these claims, then Nexon's analysts could do so too. I think I may personally start to question Mr "Joe's" motives. What is his angle in revealing all this?In most countries of the world, what we'd call "corrupt" business practices seldom land anyone in jail unless they are opposition politicians.
In my country it does.Count your blessings.
Plus we're also talking about money laundering, which is another of Mr "Joe's" revelations. I think that counts as a big no-no in US?I can't tell whether what's being described violates any written law, and I submit that it's irrelevant.
My neighbor, who is a recent transplant from Korea, has told me he has heard lots of shady things about NCSoft in the last few years and openly wondered why anyone is surprised this happened: he says they have shut down dozens of games and studios in the East in the past... and its perplexing him why it took so long to happen here.
"The Day Mitt Romney Came To Town: The Videogame Edition?"
I don't get it.
In reference to Mitt Romney's predicted presidency in the event that he won the 2012 election, at least according to liberals and moderates (including myself). No more reference to Romney should be made from here on in, in the interest of evading pyromania.
Actually, this is a very serious accusation, comparable to the rumor of money laundering. If Mr "Joe's" theories are reasonably close to the truth, there is something very wrong going on with NCsoft. On the other hand there is little evidence to support these claims. For example would Nexon buy NCsoft shares if they had any reason to suspect them of such shady business practices? Because in both cases we're talking not just lack of ethics, but criminal behaviour. Things that make people go to jail. Surely if a newspaper could come up with these claims, then Nexon's analysts could do so too. I think I may personally start to question Mr "Joe's" motives. What is his angle in revealing all this?
What is your angle in questioning and cross-examining every statement I make, and coming just short of repeatedly calling me a liar?
I assume playing Devil's Advocate. He wants the game back just as much as we do.
Whoa, there! I did not mean to step on anyone's toes. However, you are very active in the movement (I am very grateful for that as I stated previously in other posts and I think you are doing great job, honest!), while I am by nature distrustful and have difficulty believing in anything remotely resembling a free lunch. So it's inevitable that sometimes I will debate something that you will see in a very different light. Now please observe that I am giving a look to Mr "Joe", not to you. I am doing that because I see him feeding us with pretty wild stuff, while not providing any kind of proof. They're just guesses. On the other many people in our community are pretty bitter and/or desperate, so they are likely to cling to anything that would hurt NCsoft. It doesn't take much to ignite a wild goose chase in such circumstances. Why would he do that? Well, for the story would be my first guess. But it's a guess - I have nothing to back it up. So with that I'll just go and sit quietly in the corner. I do not want to stir any negative emotions and I am sorry that my mistrust has angered you. I apologize.
Nice "Tag, no tag backs" you did there. lol
In reference to Mitt Romney's predicted presidency in the event that he won the 2012 election, at least according to liberals and moderates (including myself). No more reference to Romney should be made from here on in, in the interest of evading pyromania.
Or "Joe" has an axe to grind and through you and by extension us, a group of disgruntled former NCSoft customers, could be persuaded to pick up a torch and pitchfork and needle NCSoft because his Korean readers/editors have written him off already? But it's nice to believe that there are hard hitting investigating journalists who can't quite gather enough evidence to break the story wide open alive and well in the world.
And don't undersell yourself VV. You comment in The Korea Times did trigger a short term sell off as the locals heard of what happen to us for likely the first time, since CoH never really succeeded there. NCSoft is in the KOSPI 100 and KOSPI 200 indexes and is still one of the top 60 companies in those indexes based on Market Cap so people do follow NCSoft other than on MMO blogs.
While I will not deny that, flame wars must be averted. And is there any chance, VV, that we could get in touch with "Joe" or his sources?
Down 2000 when I last checked. They're within spitting distance of their 52 week low.
Different view:
"We are heroes. This is what we do."
One thing happening to heroes often is being framed. So:
- Nexon did buy a large part of NC stock this year - as I understood that part was owned by Mr. CEO himself before.
- NC is tanking, widely believed due to very bad public standing, analysts have them on "buy" - they still have the Lineage stuff that works pretty well on their hometurf, GW and GW2 - and is still tanking despite christmas sales.
- Someone is buying, even enough to have NC rise a lil from time to time.
So, what if that "someone" is actually Nexon trying to get NC for "very cheap", having Mr. CEO play their cards, making bad "strategic decisison" to create bad publicity - picking us as we were the most probable group of (now ex-)customers to deliver?
Agreed. Stupidity is a far more likely cause of general corporate woes. Where it comes to stock prices, the market is quite capable of being irrational over the short-term.
Interesting idea but far too complicated. The old idea of Occam's razor might be a better way of looking at things.
Interesting idea but far too complicated. The old idea of Occam's razor might be a better way of looking at things.
Different view:It's not Nexon because if it was, as a 5% or greater stockholder, any further accumulation needs to be reported publicly because you can really cause havoc to the price when you control that much stock in a company.
"We are heroes. This is what we do."
One thing happening to heroes often is being framed. So:
- Nexon did buy a large part of NC stock this year - as I understood that part was owned by Mr. CEO himself before.
- NC is tanking, widely believed due to very bad public standing, analysts have them on "buy" - they still have the Lineage stuff that works pretty well on their hometurf, GW and GW2 - and is still tanking despite christmas sales.
- Someone is buying, even enough to have NC rise a lil from time to time.
So, what if that "someone" is actually Nexon trying to get NC for "very cheap", having Mr. CEO play their cards, making bad "strategic decisison" to create bad publicity - picking us as we were the most probable group of (now ex-)customers to deliver?
I just have this really funny feeling that Wildstar will never see the light of day. Its not an Asian-themed game, nor to my knowledge will it be oriented to the type of gameplay Asians prefer.Wildstar is being developed by members of the original WoW team. I think that game is doing well in Asia or am I misremembering? ;)
So I doubt we will be looking at that. This also worries me a bit regarding GW2 [that it pretty much ignores preferred Asian playstyles], although your character there shares the VERY annoying Asian trait of appearing not to be a day over 15, especially the female ones. Maybe some of the male choices might appear to be 18; its a matter of how you look at it, I guess.
I miss my Bane Spider, who was a middle-aged guy who had been a soldier most of his life. He had the scars and greying hair to prove it. Ha, you ain't getting ~nothing~ like that in anything NCSoftheaded is putting out now. You're 15 or you're not even.
I miss you, Arbiter Blaylock. :(
I think the salient thing to carry away from any conversation regarding this company is, what is logical/expected from where we sit has no bearing whatsoever on their decisions.
Therefore I will be very surprised to see Wildstar released into the wild, as it were.
The Korean Exchange may operate by a different set of rules.Well B&S hasn't launched in China yet. It entered the 2nd 40 day round of beta just three weeks ago (http://www.mmoculture.com/2012/11/blade-soul-awesome-new-trailer-and-record-prices-for-keys/) and a beta key to it was going for $320 on the "black market".
Here's what I'm thinking.
There's a lot of uncertainty with regard to NCSoft's earnings next quarter, let alone next year. A lot is riding on how well GW2 did in the West--not just in terms of box sales--but, more importantly, with gem sales. It did well in box sales, but did it underperform? Some sources said it did. Also, what about retention? They are in a position only now to gague this.
There's also uncertainly when it comes to NCSoft's appeal in the West. On the one hand, they seem to be baking away. But if they are backing away, why all the "to do" with the restructuring? This will not impact GW2 or Aion now, but what about a year from now? A year is shorter than you think, and a lot can change, a lot remains uncertain.
Also, there's the whole reception of Blade and Soul in Asia. I've heard that the title wasn't as well received as was hoped when it launched in China. And if it can't do well in China, the odds of it doing well here or in Europe are...well...not as good.
Aion, Lineage and Lineage 2 are the big money makers here. But interest in all three is fading. As far as anything else coming downthe pipe, you have Wildstar, which is a very under-the-radar niche project still a year or more away. It isn't predicted to net serious numbers. It's also a high-risk tile.
Which means NCSoft's entire future rests on its collaboration with Nexon: Mabinogi 2. It's about the only title in development with the potential to win a mass international audience. And it isn't even NCSoft's. It's Nexon's.
Now NCSoft's fundamentals are strong, but in the tech world, strength isn't where you are at, but where you are going. And where is NCSoft going right now? Their major titles are old, they have less of them, and they've placed a lot of eggs in relatively few baskets.
All of this seems to correspond to why their stock price is down. It's a mature company that looks set in its ways; the odds are that it won't get much bigger than it already is, and the odds are greater that they'll lose market share in the coming years to the other heavyweights (SOE, Blizzard/Vivendi, Square/Enix, EA) and soon-to-be heavyweights from China (NetDragon, Giant Interactive). This, combined with competition from newer, more innovative startups that have the potential to grow larger, and NCSoft is looking like US Steel in the 80's.
Again, that's the long view. The short view is, as I said, uncertainty.
At this point, with all the money NCSoft has poured into the company, not trying to recoup any of it will look bad to it's investors, not to mention everyone at corporate who kept green lighting the project through the various development review panels.
Like I said, it looks logical to release it.
That's why I'll be very surprised to see it actually released. The last thing that bunch is about is "making sense," nor do they give a flying whatever about what looks good to their stockholders.
At this point, with all the money NCSoft has poured into the company, not trying to recoup any of it will look bad to it's investors, not to mention everyone at corporate who kept green lighting the project through the various development review panels.Originally, I thought you were talking about City of Heroes... :(
Originally, I thought you were talking about City of Heroes... :(I always shake my head when people argue the "NCSoft will do what logically makes business sense" angle.
I always shake my head when people argue the "NCSoft will do what logically makes business sense" angle.
Why? Decision making involves a lot of factors of which the general public is rarely aware. That is why certain outcomes may appear random, but they seldom are.Because to do so requires a number of suppositions not supported by evidence.
There are a lot of pieces of the puzzle we don't have. Perhaps when we have the rest of it their decisions will make more sense.
I always shake my head when people argue the "NCSoft will do what logically makes business sense" angle.They will, to them, to their logic.
Why? Decision making involves a lot of factors of which the general public is rarely aware. That is why certain outcomes may appear random, but they seldom are.
It's not a perfect analogy, few are, but it's similar enough.
They will, to them, to their logic.When you say such a thing you do violence to the word. They may well have a different assessment of the facts that leads them to a different conclusion, but logic is a pretty solid concept.
Is it logical refuse to sell the plant and thus recoup none of the investment? Or to be more precise, to set your sale price so high you can be assured that no one will buy and you will lose 100% of your existing investment rather than losing 90% or 80% or some other number? In what business model is a bigger loss preferable to a smaller one?
Why is it illogical to only want to sell products that do well in your native markets and hopefully as well overseas? Why support a niche product that does okay but not fantastic in a region outside of your core market? Why sell it's IP when you've never sold off any IP of any product in an industry where few IPs are sold after cancellation?
Lets look at a different example. You are one of the major automakers in the world. You own a plant in a former iron curtain country that makes a car model that only has a loyal following, but not a major one, in that country. Attempts to broaden it's market have failed. It uses few if any parts that are common to your other model lines in Europe. Now due to other market forces you are looking to streamline your operations throughout Europe. Do you keep making that model? Do you even keep the plant open?
It's not a perfect analogy, few are, but it's similar enough. Asian based MMO companies have not done well cracking the NA MMO market by localizing their core products. However western MMOs they own may do better than their adapted Asian MMOs in NA, still not fantastic, but have no appeal in their core Asian markets. They are looking for another WoW style MMO that has worldwide appeal. They don't care if it's developed in the east or the west, just that it could do well everywhere.If shutting down Paragon Studios was in their longer-term plan why did they not phase out the developers sooner and save more money? If I have to go on just what we know then the dog didn't bark here.
Do I think NCSoft hung onto CoH until GW2 was ready to be released, yes. I think they were willing to put up with CoH anomaly until they had another western revenue stream, a much superior one, ready to take over. The loss of $2.5-3 million a quarter in sales from closing our game isn't missed when the new kid on the block brings in 15x that much in a third of the time. And while you are tapping that stream you have another studio getting ready with it's new product that you think/hope will be a big winner as well in the west.
Now in the west the F2P model is taking hold big time. The only way to make money is by having a start up fee and/or attractive item store. So NCSoft teams up with Nexon whose sole source of income is item stores. However Nexon isn't stupid and isn't willing to share their secret sauce recipe with NCSoft without some kind of leverage and that leverage is 15% of NCSoft stock and becoming its largest single shareholder even above it's CEO/founder. NCSoft also provides Nexon with their 3D development expertise and both of them are trying to make it big in the mobile/tablet market that neither have been able to significantly cash in on so both have been buying startups that have.I can't speak to their corporate strategy because they consistently obfuscate about what that is. It is to be expected. I can speak to what they've done recently and suggest that we not assume that they are going to suddenly start behaving differently.
That's NCSoft's concern right now, evolving with the marketplace. Global expansion is a nice secondary goal but they don't want to end up the Microsoft of Korea and relegated to statements like; "X is the NCSoft of the 2010s".
This premise, however, can be flawed on the assumption that even if full, accurate knowledge of those factors is available to the decision-makers, they utilize it to its fullest extent, or even consider it at all. This kind of "business knows best" philosophy is flawed because it generalizes the entire company - it ignores the possibility that regardless of how many people it employs, the person or persons on whose decisions the entire company pivots around made a wrong decision. Whether it's because of misinterpretation of data, or insistence on "trusting their gut", there is no position in a business hierarchy that confers on its holder immunity to mistakes.
But it's often a good idea to use a razor {Occam's or Hanlan's, take your pick}
<snip>
So rather than caprice or malice, I see them flailing about uselessly while on fire. Not quite in their death-throes yet, though.
This premise, however, can be flawed on the assumption that even if full, accurate knowledge of those factors is available to the decision-makers, they utilize it to its fullest extent, or even consider it at all. This kind of "business knows best" philosophy is flawed because it generalizes the entire company - it ignores the possibility that regardless of how many people it employs, the person or persons on whose decisions the entire company pivots around made a wrong decision. Whether it's because of misinterpretation of data, or insistence on "trusting their gut", there is no position in a business hierarchy that confers on its holder immunity to mistakes.$12 million a year isn't rather well, not when NCSoft's other MMOs are doing 8-18x that each. If you limit it to NA and Europe, well those markets have been shrinking, considerably, to almost the point of irrelevancy until GW2 came out.
So in short, yes, there may be factors we don't know of that recast all the evidence we have available in a different light, and NCsoft's insistence that CoH stays dead and buried somehow works in their favor. But it's often a good idea to use a razor {Occam's or Hanlan's, take your pick} and go with the possibility that involves the least number of unknowns - that NCsoft's management made a mistake.
I... don't think so. CoH had been performing rather well in both North America and Europe, especially given its near-total lack of marketing support. The analogy is more reminiscent of the model having a loyal following, but not a major one, in a number of other countries, but neither the loyalty or relevance in the only country you feel should matter.
Why is it illogical to only want to sell products that do well in your native markets and hopefully as well overseas?
Why support a niche product that does okay but not fantastic in a region outside of your core market?
Why sell it's IP when you've never sold off any IP of any product in an industry where few IPs are sold after cancellation?
Um actually, yes they can.Is it logical refuse to sell the plant and thus recoup none of the investment? Or to be more precise, to set your sale price so high you can be assured that no one will buy and you will lose 100% of your existing investment rather than losing 90% or 80% or some other number? In what business model is a bigger loss preferable to a smaller one?If that was the case then why are their so many abandoned factories or retail properties? Sellers need buyers but sellers aren't simply going to take any offer, not when there are alternatives such tax right offs, that puts a bottom limit on what would be an acceptable price. Of course it also assumes that the investment in an asset isn't already paid off, multiple times over or fully depreciated. In that case they don't NEED to sell it.
If shutting down Paragon Studios was in their longer-term plan why did they not phase out the developers sooner and save more money? If I have to go on just what we know then the dog didn't bark here.The phrase "realignment in focus" implies an overall company shift in priorities. If it didn't happen or if the "realignment" had different goals then you might not want to phase out anyone.
Is there any other piece of evidence of which you are aware that supports the idea that this was a long-term decision or are you relying on the supposition that whatever they did it must have been rational?Corporations don't do irrational things. The decisions seem rational at the time by those making them. They may end up being short sighted, they may be based on incomplete or even false assumptions about where the market is going. You could have an entire class on HP's missteps over the last two years. AMD eliminated their low power CPU group just six months before demand exploded world wide. I company I was at took a big loss back in 2000 when they hedge the exchange rate for the Euro the wrong way and we took a bath, twice, on our European sales.
I can't speak to their corporate strategy because they consistently obfuscate about what that is. It is to be expected. I can speak to what they've done recently and suggest that we not assume that they are going to suddenly start behaving differently.
I see evidence of foolishness and impulse. These are normal in human behavior. NCSoft is not run by robots. [At least, not as far as we know.] I'm not ready to ignore some of the evidence on faith that NCSoft's corporate decision-makers are deeply-wise people.
Because that's what the people there want.
But what if the company does not want that?
Corporations don't do irrational things. ... You could have an entire class on HP's missteps over the last two years.
If that was the case then why are their so many abandoned factories or retail properties? Sellers need buyers but sellers aren't simply going to take any offer, not when there are alternatives such tax right offs, that puts a bottom limit on what would be an acceptable price. Of course it also assumes that the investment in an asset isn't already paid off, multiple times over or fully depreciated. In that case they don't NEED to sell it.If there's a loss they can write off we'll see that in a corporate report.
The phrase "realignment in focus" implies an overall company shift in priorities. If it didn't happen or if the "realignment" had different goals then you might not want to phase out anyone.
Do I think NCSoft hung onto CoH until GW2 was ready to be released, yes. I think they were willing to put up with CoH anomaly until they had another western revenue stream, a much superior one, ready to take over.
Corporations don't do irrational things.Hogwash. Utter, unmitigated nonsense. So patently false a thesis that academicians actually study and attempt to explain the negation of it.
The decisions seem rational at the time by those making them. They may end up being short sighted, they may be based on incomplete or even false assumptions about where the market is going. You could have an entire class on HP's missteps over the last two years. AMD eliminated their low power CPU group just six months before demand exploded world wide. I company I was at took a big loss back in 2000 when they hedge the exchange rate for the Euro the wrong way and we took a bath, twice, on our European sales.The point of the market is not that companies or corporations are flawless decision-makers. The fact that the market will punish you for making the wrong decisions is supposed to induce prudent behavior. The more detached the decision-makers become from the consequences of their stupidity, the more likely they are to display it.
Because most successful major multinational corporations have figured out that you adjust for foreign markets, not try to shoehorn your principles on them (or at the very least, in addition to trying to shoehorn your principles on them). It's why McDonald's sells burgers made of lamb in India (and a lot of other stuff (http://foodnetworkhumor.com/2009/07/mcdonalds-menu-items-from-around-the-world-40-pics/) in other places). It's why Coca-Cola sells that nasty-ass stuff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_(drink)) they sell in Italy but not here (in the U.S.). Or for that matter, have you ever heard of Qoo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qoo)? Actually, aren't you German? If so, you may very well have since it was sold there for a few years, but about 99.99% of the people in the United States haven't. It's a niche brand of non-carbonated fruit drinks sold by Coca-Cola primarily in Asian markets. Why does a multi-billion dollar multinational behemoth like Coca-Cola sell Qoo?It took those companies decades to expand into those markets. It takes time and patience to learn what sells there as well as how to do business there. There has to be a willingness to listen to the locals. It's easy to waltz in and buy an existing product and then try to control it as if was like any other product in your company. Many expansions into new markets that way ultimately fail. NCSoft did exactly that. They came over here and invested in or bought up products under development and while they were somewhat successful over the short term, they tried to micromanage to improve both sales and new project success.
Because that's what the people there want. I'm not saying that you can't try to push your own stuff there, but if you want to be a multinational company like NCsoft says it wants to, you have to have a keen sense of what sells and where.It's a possibility that there was a white knight for CoH at NCSoft but no longer or at least as influential. And you don't need a Wormtongue like villain, just a persuasive presentation referencing well funded industry studies trying to predict the future of the industry. "Always in motion is the future."
I'm not disputing that the thought process you're engaging in is probably the exact thought process that NCsoft is going through. I'm just saying that for a company to "take it to the next level," so to speak, it has to factor in local markets; to not do so poses a serious risk of disinterest and, depending on the circumstances, backlash against the company that tries to come in and impose their culture on others.
What's kind of weird about this specific circumstance is that NCsoft actually used to have a good strategy in this arena. After all, it did fund City of Heroes and it did buy out Cryptic's interest in the IP way back when. That's why I think that sometime within the last few years, there has been some kind of fundamental management shift within the company. Not at the CEO level, but slightly lower. I honestly believe that someone who either is grossly incompetent or who doesn't have the best interest of NCsoft at heart has Taek-Jin Kim's ear right now--like a corporate Wormtongue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%ADma_Wormtongue).
Because smart people make mistakes just like stupid people do. The difference between smart people and stupid people, though, is that smart people learn from their mistakes and try to make right by them when possible, whereas stupid people double down on their mistakes, adamantly refusing to change course, hoping the problem magically goes away.Again, you are assigning a level of impact that canceling our game had that's wildly disproportionate to it's following. When they canceled our game we were 2% of their sales and virtually unheard of in their native and nearby regional markets which accounts for 95% of their sales. Their original MMOs are already doing poorly here and in Europe, there isn't a lot of down left for them. I doubt the "boycott all NCSoft products" will affect GW2's sales numbers in any statistically significant way. The success of B&S will be based on play style, is it just another PvP grindfest or something more accessible to casual players, and the degree of sex and violence that makes it by regional censors. Europe may object to the violence and gun play while we prudes would object to the beef and cheese cake in "a video game".
That is the position that NCsoft is in currently. At one time, they were a smart company with a diverse game portfolio and profit-making enterprises in multiple international markets. Now, they're an insular Asian publisher that churns out games that only appeal predominantly to an Asian market, who has basically put all of their eggs into one basket: the success of Blade and Soul in China, which will either make or break them as a company. Killing off City of Heroes is obviously backfiring on them and has done quite a bit of harm in a market that would have been an AWESOME hedge against something like, for example, the Chinese economy tanking, which at this point would kill NCsoft.
So what would a smart person do? Try to make right by it. I honestly think it's too late for them to rescue City of Heroes themselves, to try to go back to the way things were. However, if they want to get at least some measure of goodwill here, they're going to have to let it go and work to shed their image as a game-killer. Will it solve all of their problems? No, but at least it's a start, and to do otherwise would basically be conceding the North American and European markets to other companies, admitting that NCsoft will likely not be a major multinational corporation anytime in the near future.
Corporations don't do irrational things.This is patently false. One of the hallmarks of today's corporate climate is short-term profits tend to trump long-term thinking, and they tend to act as if resources are infinite. This thinking is not just irrational, its deranged. And its just one example of irrational corporate group-think.
If there's a loss they can write off we'll see that in a corporate report.Companies rarely line item D&A in their quarterly or annual reports. However glancing at their 3Q report D&A is up 47% over last year. We'll see what 4Q brings in February.
If it's fully-depreciated there isn't, but then it's a much larger opportunity cost to sit on the property while it's market value decays.
There's a lot more than needs to be known before shutting down something profitable they were investing in up to the last moment looks like a rational decision.
Help me understand your view. Here you seem to be saying that there was a sudden shift in their long-term strategy and that's why they didn't do a phase-out at PS to save money.\
...but here you seem to be saying that getting rid of CoH was a strategy going back at least a year or two. So I'm confused about what you think the explanation is.No, just suggesting what could have been a factor during previous discussions as to why they should keep CoH around for another quarter/year. NC Interactive, which handles all sales in the NA region as well as being Paragon Studio's boss in the corporate org chart, was gushing money, at least according to the quarterly subsidiary profit/loss statements. Not removing a significant part of that subsidiary's sales before another source is available seems obvious.
Hogwash. Utter, unmitigated nonsense. So patently false a thesis that academicians actually study and attempt to explain the negation of it.Didn't mean to imply that all decisions of companies are not irrational, just that they are usually avoided. Those articles highlight gut decisions; unintended consequences of reward systems (I'm gonna to write me a new minivan this afternoon - Wally, Dilbert); erring on the side of caution when you suspect you don't have enough information. I grant you the sunk cost fallacy as irrational. I think NCSoft did that one with Destination Games.
http://blogs.sas.com/content/cokins/2011/01/18/why-are-there-irrational-business-decisions/
http://www.sba.oakland.edu/Faculty/york/Readings434/Readings/On%20the%20folly.pdf
http://chronicle.com/page/Good-Research-on-Bad-Business/462/
https://www.repository.utl.pt/handle/10400.5/2257
Never mind New Coke.
The point of the market is not that companies or corporations are flawless decision-makers. The fact that the market will punish you for making the wrong decisions is supposed to induce prudent behavior. The more detached the decision-makers become from the consequences of their stupidity, the more likely they are to display it.Those are two of my favorite Demotivator posters. Yes, often meetings and committees are simply done to prevent blame from being assigned in the future. Just like how compromise is having a solution that nobody likes.
Time again for the poster. Here's the biggest problem with corporate decision-making:
(https://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/Crusader_Rabbit/meetingsdemotivator.jpg)
...and another I dedicate especially to NCSoft's CEO:
(https://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/Crusader_Rabbit/mistakesdemotivator.jpg)
This is patently false. One of the hallmarks of today's corporate climate is short-term profits tend to trump long-term thinking, and they tend to act as if resources are infinite. This thinking is not just irrational, its deranged. And its just one example of irrational corporate group-think.Working toward short-term profits over long-term planning isn't irrational to you if that's what you are being rewarded on. Was it irrational to turn off XP in CoH? To those where leveling quickly was the most important thing about the game, it sure was but to others who wanted to play their characters through all the content it's not.
The reason I can't see the logic behind NCSoft's decision to close CoH is simple:
CoH may have been only 2% of their overall revenue but it was 30-50% of their revenue in the Western market.
They've also said that they want to expand more into the Western market.
So you'll excuse me if I can't understand the logic behind beginning their expansion into the Western market by shutting down their most popular and most profitable product in that market (in the process also shutting down two other in-development projects also targeted specifically at that market).
Working toward short-term profits over long-term planning isn't irrational to you if that's what you are being rewarded on. Was it irrational to turn off XP in CoH? To those where leveling quickly was the most important thing about the game, it sure was but to others who wanted to play their characters through all the content it's not.
As the game of publicly traded big business is now played, short term gains are rewarded. Growth is rewarded over stability or customer satisfaction.
A case can be made that we are all irrational if you step back far enough to see the whole picture but within our little world we don't make irrational choices, our choices seem perfectly rational to us, it only seems irrational to an outside observer.
The reason I can't see the logic behind NCSoft's decision to close CoH is simple:CO came out in 2009 (so did Aion BTW). In 2008 CoH had over $22 million in sales. In 2009 CoH had less than $18 million. 2009 was the start of a significant downturn in sales. Maybe it was CO, maybe it was simply burnout, maybe it was I13 PvP changes coming home to roost or the influx of AE babies but something drove away 20% of sales that year with the dip starting with the 3Q numbers. 2Q 2009 the game had sales over $5 million and in 1Q 2010 it was hovering at around $3 million. That's a 40% drop in 9 months. Something happened then.
CoH may have been only 2% of their overall revenue but it was 30-50% of their revenue in the Western market.
They've also said that they want to expand more into the Western market.
So you'll excuse me if I can't understand the logic behind beginning their expansion into the Western market by shutting down their most popular and most profitable product in that market (in the process also shutting down two other in-development projects also targeted specifically at that market).
Frankly, "they closed it to hide money-laundering" makes more logical sense than "They closed their most popular Western MMO in order to increase their influence in the West".
Unfortunately, your comparing an apple to a bag of mixed fruit. There were several reasons to turn off XP and at least one good reason not to. I turned off XP to I could get recipe drops at a specific level. Some did it in the beginning so they could be perma-bridges at level 46. Some did it for content. There are lots of reasons and they all depend on what your goal is.
However, most here would say that the final goal of a company is earning an income. And if a company does something that is to the contrary, well, you get the idea... I hope.
So, can you give a solid explanation as to how eliminating a product that nets you 30-50% of your income in a market that you want to push into counts as any gain at all? And, please, keep the hypothetical to a minimum.
Point taken.
Like my tinfoil hat? I made it to look like a fez...
And what if sacrificing short term income to be in a better position for long term growth was their play?
It's simpler to localize one product across all markets than to support a niche product that only sells in one shrinking market.
It doesn't hurt either if you know that any lost sales is easily offset by a new locally developed product.
Mr. Kim turns around ripping off the Positron shirt and underneath is a black lace bra and garters embossed with Blade and Soul written in gold. "The omens do not bode well for Paragon Studios," he quips.
What I can say is that if I had been the decision maker, even if the game were losing a small amount of money per year, if I were aware of how tremendous the impact CoH had on the lives of many of its players, I'd have kept the game going and used the losses to offset the income from the other games to lower my tax liability.
I've seen enough global mistells to know where this is going... :o
[And with that post... I have attained level 100 boss status. :gonk: ]
Rocky Horror Picture Show?
...Why yes
Corporations don't do irrational things.
Excuse me while I go edit my mental images.
With a fork...
I subscribe to the philosophy that corporations are psychopaths (http://www.naturalnews.com/032814_corporations_psychopath.html). Expecting them to be considerate is usually a setup for disappointment.I have never agreed more strongly with anything you have said here than this. There aren't enough "INDEED" images in existence.
Again, extreme fluctuations in stock price have little effect on a company itself.Doesn't stop me from enjoying the schadenfreude with each won their investors lose.
As for the stock, I see its devaluation as making the replacement of the current decision-makers more probable, and with that, a re-evaluation of the old guard's actions regarding CoH. A new team stands to reverse the PR nightmare NCSoft finds itself in. Simply by selling off the IP to a better caretaker, and a kind word to the CoH community, new management would win NCSoft's good name back. As we've mentioned before, this event could also benefit the entire MMO gaming community by forcing providers to re-examine the contract they offer to their customers.
So, that is why I check NCSoft's stock, and feel so heartened by its precipitous and ongoing decline.
if the decline continues then management will be changed, however, not something i expect to see anytime soonIt would have to continue really, really low since they were down below 50k for a decent while and nobody took a walk.
Still, there's a difference between being low and falling dramatically.
It's a little like if you walked into a casino with $10 in your pocket, just happy to play a few games, maybe get a free drink and to snag a few chicken fingers off the buffet. You play some quarter slots and win $100. Then you go to the blackjack table and turn it in to $500. You take that to the roulette table and hit, so now you're up to $2,000. You take that to the craps table and next thing you know, you're swimming in $50,000. From there, you decide to enter a high-stakes Texas Hold'em game which requires the whole $50,000, and on your first hand, you draw pocket aces, and another ace comes out on the flop. Feeling pretty good, you go all in when it looks like one of the guys across from you is trying a slow play on you. He goes all in also, and flips over two low hearts. One of the flop cards is a heart and the dealer then proceeds to flip over hearts on the turn and river.
Now what are you going to be thinking at this point? A: Meh, so I'm out $10, at least I got some chicken fingers and had fun. B: Son of a bitch, I just lost $50,000 because the most stupid, rotten luck I've ever had in my life!
If NCsoft drops anywhere near 50k, they're not going to be thinking about how that's around where it was a few years ago. Heads will roll.
The stock was as low as 27,000 (10/28/2008) back when CoH was still pulling in big sales numbers. That's down from 107,000 in Oct 2004.
Again, extreme fluctuations in stock price have little effect on a company itself.
Hmm... I've watched the documentary that compares corporations to sociopaths, yes. It has points, but to be honest, it doesn't jibe with my admittedly limited experience.Corporations may be made of individual people, but they operate on a larger scale where "individual" equals "insignificant".
I believe that corporations are made of people, people in all their diversity and fallibility. However... the personality of the person or people with decision-making powers permeates the organization. This is inevitable, and why I so disapprove of laws that make a corporation a "fictional person," and allow those in charge to evade personal responsibility for their actions.
I wonder how much it would cost me to get a Korean shaman to come publicly cast a curse on NCSoft in front of their building?
I wonder how much it would cost me to get a Korean shaman to come publicly cast a curse on NCSoft in front of their building?
If NCsoft drops anywhere near 50k, they're not going to be thinking about how that's around where it was a few years ago. Heads will roll.
Miracle Max: "THAT is a noble cause. Give me the sixty-five, I'm on the job!"
If Korea is the kind of place where cops would potentially beat-down a torch rally at NCsoft, I don't think a "Witch" casting curses in public would fare much better.
Though, if they have such a shaman, he might be similar to a Barakumin in Japan, and thus untouchable. I mean, if you see an old man who is believed to be able to curse people, would you want to mess with him?
Though, if they have such a shaman, he might be similar to a Barakumin in Japan, and thus untouchable. I mean, if you see an old man who is believed to be able to curse people, would you want to mess with him?
Would you want to mess with this?I dont mind some good pork ribs, a bag of pork rinds and maybe a few pork chops.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=livedoor.blogimg.jp%2Ftonchamon%2Fimgs%2Fd%2F6%2Fd692dd9d.jpg)
I'm actually going to look into this.
Kickstarter?
Basically if this can be done, it's merely bringing the wrath of the base to the source in a language that they cannot pretend they do not understand.Y'know what? This is glorious. There is nothing about this whole concept that is not righteous.
Why is this reminding me of the scene in Conan the Destroyer where the two wizards are fighting to open and close a door? :)
Basically if this can be done, it's merely bringing the wrath of the base to the source in a language that they cannot pretend they do not understand.
The ancient and noble art of unicorning corporations.
As a natural born greenskin I like where this is going.
OK, I have to ask? Other than a magic horse with a horn on it's forehead, WTF if a unicorn?
It's a forum text autocorrect for the term that refers to a mythical monster that lives under a bridge and eats goats.
Hope you'te not getting on me about that. If you change your code thrice daily, you can't whine about some out of date codes.. Back when I was in mostly daily contact, I was totally up to date with the latest lingo. Not so much now...
OK, I have to ask? Other than a magic horse with a horn on it's forehead, WTF if a unicorn?
Everything you know about unicorns is a lie. In truth they are
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i3.minus.com%2FiYz0eGOIsG6WV.png)
OK, I have to ask? Other than a magic horse with a horn on it's forehead, WTF if a unicorn?
The word spelled t-r-o-l-l on this forum is automatically changed to unicorn. I never realized why. I guess they don't want people calling other people by such a name. Which makes it difficult sometimes talking about a specific low-level enemy group in City of Heroes that is found readily the Hollows. No, not the hellions.
As if getting rid of the word will get rid of the thing it names.
You can call it a t-r-o-l-l, you can call it a unicorn or a Higg's Boson or a UFO or a puppy or an annoying person or whatever other word you can dream up: concept still exists. Nuking the word does not remove it from existance, therefore I don't understand all this tiptoeing around the WORD. If it were a racial slur or something, that would be one thing; but what this is supposed to accomplish, I truly do not know.
As if getting rid of the word will get rid of the thing it names.It definitely doesn't eliminate the source of the annoyance, but sure does slow them down when they try to figure out what's going on.
It definitely doesn't eliminate the source of the annoyance, but sure does slow them down when they try to figure out what's going on.
This just got launched a couple days ago... :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbF9nLhOqLU
wolfwings_backup: Not to mention that they are *STILL* auto-banning anyone running any program that ties into the keyboard or mouse devices.
wolfwings_backup: So Logitech G-16? Auto-ban on login if the systray app is running since it's detected as a 'macro/botting' program. Still.
Misty: facepalm
wolfwings_backup: AutoHotkey? I kinda need that running due to work, I'm not gonna quit that every time I load the damn game. So ban for me most likely at some point.
wolfwings_backup: And don't get me started on all the disabled-assistance programs, since most of those *ARE* macro/automation tools. Those are EXPLICITLY banned, a couple folks are considering bringing ADA lawsuits against them over that.
Misty: I think they SHOULD bring ADA lawsuits against them
wolfwings_backup: It's mostly a matter of those that could, would rather go play something else than waste the time, nobody hard-headed enough has hit that wall yet. XD
wolfwings_backup: In many cases going back to GW1.
OK. THIS is just wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to count them.wowWOW! I'm finding this tidbit very interesting. I am still stunned at some of the anecdotal stories about those with types of autism and other types of learning issues being able to play CoH, and for some to be temporarily liberated in a sense. I keep imagining an episode of Oprah where an adorable little girl or boy was able to play CoH with one or both of their parents and be so-called "normal" for a time..and then Oprah finds out the game was closed...however, I don't think Oprah does her show anymore. Maybe Dr. Phil?
According to a very reliable friend of mine, Guild Wars 2 is banning the handicapped.
This is how it breaks down. Arenanet recently started purging GW2 of bots. Except that the definition of a "bot" includes people that contact them to protest being banned because they are using handicapped-assists.
Here is my conversation with him:
He's on his way to visit (should be here in 3 days) and I am going to sit down with him, verify this, get some actual names of handicapped people that are banned and verify they can't get any redress, then turn this loose on the game journalists. What I REALLY want to know is, is this ArenaNet? Or is this an edict from NCSoft that ArenaNet is helpless to do anything about? But that is what I will let the journalists try and figure out.
What kind of a "handicap assist" would resemble a 3rd party macro to a video game client?
OK. THIS is just wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to count them.Please excuse my language, but...
According to a very reliable friend of mine, Guild Wars 2 is banning the handicapped.
This is how it breaks down. Arenanet recently started purging GW2 of bots. Except that the definition of a "bot" includes people that contact them to protest being banned because they are using handicapped-assists.
... Funcom pretty much told hearing impaired players "That's too bad" when they complained about missions in TSW requiring you to listen for clues in order to progress.
Could someone with a handicap, who is using macro/automation just to be able to play PC games, get caught up in the sweep? I can easily believe that. Is ANet targeting them specifically, no.
Well it's not like they can send ANet a doctor's note or that there is an online agency that issues virtual handicap placards that game companies can check.
I'm actually not sure if this is sarcasm or not. :DNot sarcasm, just how would a game company go about to verify medical credentials? Internationally? That's why I pointed out that their might be need of a centralize service that all game companies that face this kind of dilemma could use. Plus it could allow gamers to get certified ahead of time and have it noted on their account.
As one of those CSR-type folks listed above I'd actually be sort of surprised if they didnt accept (or consider) some kind of credentialed exception.
They wouldn't be the first gaming company to be discrimatory, Blizzard has banned players for using third party applications and Funcom pretty much told hearing impaired players "That's too bad" when they complained about missions in TSW requiring you to listen for clues in order to progress.
That's pretty pathetic... converting aural cues to visual ones in a video game would be pathetically easy.
Thanks for the info Mike. It sounds like the controls for TSW may not be flexible enough for me to work with, and $30 is a lot of money for me to waste to find out i can't play it.
TSW is free to play. Kinda sorta just happened a couple weeks or so ago. Just FYI.
Hmm. Stock seems to be climbing again. Maybe if we stare at it for a while it will cower back into submission.
Hilarious as I find the clip, I don't wish for the SaveCoH movement to amount to this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2RKmVqnNdw
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=images.wikia.com%2Funcyclopedia%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fa4%2FHypnotoad.jpg)
here you go, dw
(https://i.imgur.com/YMRMe.gif)
TSW is free to play. Kinda sorta just happened a couple weeks or so ago. Just FYI.
It's not. You don't pay subscription fee, but you still need to buy a copy of the game. Just like Guild Wars.
//But *technically*.... Oh, ok, yeah, I'm still wrong. :(
And I missed this earlier. One of the analysts following NCSoft put out another prediction (http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/board/message/view.do?messageId=182267&messageNumber=25&messageCategoryId=0&startId=zzzzz~&startPage=1&curPage=1&searchType=2&searchText=NCSoft&searchStartYear=2011&searchStartMonth=12&searchStartDay=30&searchEndYear=2012&searchEndMonth=12&searchEndDay=29&lastPageFlag=&categoryId=76) for 4Q and next year.
They are stating that Operational Profits, which just offsets the cost of running their games and not take into account development, marketing and other overhead costs, will be at an all time high for the company due to GW2 and Lineage I sales. They don't expect Aion, L2 or B&S sales to grow from their 3Q numbers. They expect quarterly sales overall of 275,000 million KrW and an OP of 101,000 million KrW. They also mention that the baseball team is costing them 15,000 million KrW.
B&S will be rolled out in China 3Q 2013 and GW2 in 4Q 2013. They expect B&S to earn 60,000 million KrW for 2013 from China but don't have an estimate for GW2 since they aren't sure how it will be packaged and sold there (unlikely just a disk).
They still says the stock is a buy but are lowing their 2013 stock price estimate to 280,000 KrW from 310,000 KrW due to increase marketing and labor costs eating into the profits.
Yes as the stock is in the 150,000-160,000 range. Might be the point of labeling the stock as a BUY if it is predicted to nearly double by the end of the year.
Yes as the stock is in the 150,000-160,000 range. Might be the point of labeling the stock as a BUY if it is predicted to nearly double by the end of the year.
Of course last year many analysts thought the stock was going to hit 450,000 so what do they know.
hmmmm.
buy now and it might go up soon in the mid-run. Buy now it might sink lower and never go up. risk risk risk. Buy now or get even better price tomorrow. Always risk. I'll mull it over a glass of Dalmore 15, and then decide again and this time ensuring no delays.
Stork Market = Lottery, with research having a slightly better chance of improving your odds.
So far, if I recall correctly, FatherXmas (you have been paying better attention to this than me, the stock market makes my head hurt) these Korean analysts have pretty much been wrong on the predictions of where the stock was going? The only time they were right was the big bump following the release of GW2, then the fall when it sold 2 million boxes instead of the predicted 6 million (a fall the analysts did not predict).GW sold around 7 million copies, split between the original game and the various expansions (and combo editions), world wide including Asia. This is why I can't believe anybody would have suggested that GW2 would sell 6 million just in NA and Europe in it's first month. Therefore the market couldn't have been disappointed by it's 46,000 million KrW sales numbers for that 1 month in 3Q.
GW sold around 7 million copies, split between the original game and the various expansions (and combo editions), world wide including Asia. This is why I can't believe anybody would have suggested that GW2 would sell 6 million just in NA and Europe in it's first month. Therefore the market couldn't have been disappointed by it's 46,000 million KrW sales numbers for that 1 month in 3Q.
Of course that said I took a walk down memory lane at KDB Daewoo Securities and found this (http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/board/message/view.do?categoryId=76&messageId=177792&messageNumber=8228&searchType=2&searchText=NCSoft&searchStartYear=2011&searchStartMonth=12&searchStartDay=30&searchEndYear=2012&searchEndMonth=12&searchEndDay=29&messageCategoryId=0&startId=zzzzz~&curPage=1&startPage=1&recommendPoint=1&listType=1&popupFlag=) release from Sept 3rd 2012 where it's mentioned a prediction of 5-6 million units sold in 2012 (I think they meant to say 2013). However in the very next paragraph they specifically state that they expect the game to sell 3.12 million units in 2012 with another 1.54 million in 2013 with roughly 10% of the owners spending $15 USD a month in the store.
Going back even further these guys had the stock hitting 510,000 (:o) before they started to lower estimates almost with every release relating to NCSoft.
Going back even further to July (http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/board/message/view.do?categoryId=76&messageId=174799&messageNumber=7918&searchType=2&searchText=NCSoft&searchStartYear=2011&searchStartMonth=12&searchStartDay=30&searchEndYear=2012&searchEndMonth=12&searchEndDay=29&messageCategoryId=0&startId=zzzzz~&curPage=1&startPage=1&recommendPoint=1&listType=1&popupFlag=), they had an interesting tidbit about Blade & Soul in Korea. 31% of the accounts were to women. They also stated that the population distribution relating to age was 39% in their 20s, 29% in their 30s and 24% in their 40s. That's 92% there with over 50% age 30 or older. Why am I more crept out now that I know this? :-\
31% of the accounts were to women. They also stated that the population distribution relating to age was 39% in their 20s, 29% in their 30s and 24% in their 40s. That's 92% there with over 50% age 30 or older. Why am I more crept out now that I know this? :-\
Of course that said I took a walk down memory lane at KDB Daewoo Securities and found this (http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/board/message/view.do?categoryId=76&messageId=177792&messageNumber=8228&searchType=2&searchText=NCSoft&searchStartYear=2011&searchStartMonth=12&searchStartDay=30&searchEndYear=2012&searchEndMonth=12&searchEndDay=29&messageCategoryId=0&startId=zzzzz~&curPage=1&startPage=1&recommendPoint=1&listType=1&popupFlag=) release from Sept 3rd 2012 where it's mentioned a prediction of 5-6 million units sold in 2012 (I think they meant to say 2013). However in the very next paragraph they specifically state that they expect the game to sell 3.12 million units in 2012 with another 1.54 million in 2013 with roughly 10% of the owners spending $15 USD a month in the store.
Going back even further these guys had the stock hitting 510,000 (:o) before they started to lower estimates almost with every release relating to NCSoft.
When I read the Daewoo reports a month or so ago I thought they must be either incompetent or crooked. And the projections are just so far out there that I had a hard time giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming the former.
Except they do jive with many other analysts (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/analyst?symbol=036570.KS). Of course their collective track record makes chemical engineering look like an exact science (friends who were ChemE majors in college had shirts made up with "2+2=5 for very large values of 2" due to the difference between theoretical and actual results during labs).
A friend of mine I commented to about Blade & Soul referred to him as 'Hyung-Tits Kim'; apparently his character design predilections are well-known...Having seen the video linked in another thread I'd say his style was developed without ever actually seeing a real girl.
Obviously, you're not familiar with the "depths" of variety available in said reference material. (No, I'm not linking!)
Scuttlebutt that 4Q isn't as good as some analysts suggested?
From your mouth to the deity of your choice's ear.
Or it might be because, despite sinking stock numbers, disappointment with GW2's retention rate (it's not good, if what I am hearing is true), panic downsizing of NCSoft's staffing, they are still building a bigger HQ in Seoul.
None of these things would make me want to buy their stock.
They started to ball rolling on the new HQ in 2010. New exclusive high tech oriented industrial park emphasis on park, lots of green space, lots of big name neighbors.
I've not seen any news on GW2 retention rate problems, other than their periodic bans. Latest was another exploit that let you on average double a very rare and high price crafting ingredient.
The thing about stock analysts is that we can never be sure that they aren't biased for or against. Perhaps they are fans of NCSoft's baseball team?
And, even if they are credible, certainly most people that invest in the market buy a stock and just leave it. Investing is typically a long term deal.
In happier news, looks like the stock dipped below 150K again. They're just a little bit short of their three-year worst.watching very closely waiting for the time to strike.
watching very closely waiting for the time to strike.
Up and down and up and down go the stock reports?Stock is sitting at 141.5k at the moment, but apparently dropped as low as 139.0 earlier (52-week low.)
Stock is sitting at 141.5k at the moment, but apparently dropped as low as 139.0 earlier (52-week low.)Okay I think I'm seeing why. The national government is currently looking at multiple bills that affect the gaming industry in a negative way. One is an up to 1% levy of sales to be put into a fund to help gaming addiction. Another reduces national subsidies for the gaming industry. A third will move the ban young players from midnight to 6am from 16 and under to 10pm to 7am for 19 and under.
Okay I think I'm seeing why. The national government is currently looking at multiple bills that affect the gaming industry in a negative way. One is an up to 1% levy of sales to be put into a fund to help gaming addiction. Another reduces national subsidies for the gaming industry. A third will move the ban young players from midnight to 6am from 16 and under to 10pm to 7am for 19 and under.
So, you're still not thinking that it is because of the bad press they are getting for closing games like CoX down?
Okay I think I'm seeing why.
I also woudln't rule out the possibility that someone is speculating over their stock
Ooh... someone has a nefarious plan in the works.
Which other games did NCsoft drop now, by the way?
Somehow I edited out the part where I said Nexon also took a sharp downturn as well.
Nexon seems up today though.
hmm interesting, could it have been possible that due to these things being thrown around in the government that ncsoft may have shut down coh due that?
while the shutting down was still a bad move for them instead of trying to sell, i think this might have been what prompted the sudden shutdown notice
so thinking about it a minute:
1. ncsoft sees that stuff against the gaming industry is up in government
2. ncsoft predicts that this will cause a loss for all games so it wants to chop off "dead weight"
3. ncsoft knee jerkingly chooses coh to shut down
4. coh shutdown prompts massive public backlash
5. ncsoft continually responds to community questioning with lies and incompetence
this could eventually lead to ncsoft selling off the IP to get us off their back while they try to fight this stuff in their government and not lose any more face than they already have, especially with the continual stock drops they have been having
since this is all speculation, still having "wait and see" attitude for the time being
"We advise cutting losses on NCsoft - we see continued cannibalization of existing games and at best moderate success for new games in China," Morgan Stanley analyst Sam Min wrote in a research note on Wednesday.
THAT - right there - that needs to go viral.
So is MS taking the contrarian position going from outperform to underperform since the vast majority of analysts are still bullish on the stock, even though they've been quietly lowering sales and profit estimates.
Just saw this in a post on Save City of Heroes FB, don't think it's been mentioned here yet so...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/09/markets-korea-stocks-idUSL4N0AE2UK20130109
Some very interesting comments about NCSoft.
THAT - right there - that needs to go viral.
But now I have a new question. What happens if, somehow, NCSoft goes kaput? What happens to the IPs?
What were the offers on the table that NC Soft turned down?
Food for thought, but if the compnay tanks, they may have to reestablish the game for survivals sake. If not, if they sell, do we have a strategy here to put a foot in the door, or aquire funding to buy it.
How far are we willing to go here? Is there a serious enough presnece here to step up, if the opportunity presents itself?
I don't really do anything setrious without a plan, what is the plan here in the event that the IP becomes available?
What do we need to do here to get a strategic plan for aquisition of the IP if and when it becomes available?
Is there contact with the old team, and if given the opportunity would they return to this IP?
Tick Tock, Tick Tock, folks...
I never thought that. The KT article that quoted VV might have been the first time it was brought to the attention of Korean investors and gamers and that was only a few weeks ago.
Anyways I was looking for why there are sudden sharp drops over the past two days. That wouldn't be for us.
What were the offers on the table that NC Soft turned down?
Food for thought, but if the compnay tanks, they may have to reestablish the game for survivals sake. If not, if they sell, do we have a strategy here to put a foot in the door, or aquire funding to buy it.
How far are we willing to go here? Is there a serious enough presnece here to step up, if the opportunity presents itself?
I don't really do anything setrious without a plan, what is the plan here in the event that the IP becomes available?
What do we need to do here to get a strategic plan for aquisition of the IP if and when it becomes available?
Is there contact with the old team, and if given the opportunity would they return to this IP?
Tick Tock, Tick Tock, folks...
Something fishy seems to be going, I can smell it but I dont see the fish yet.
I asked a few friends in the Korean business community what they thought of all this - not that I don't think your knowledge isn't really impressive, (our many props to you my friend :) ) and they laughed a bit. Not one or two people - but all of them, which kind of surprised me like there's some kind of 'inside joke' about the Korean Corporate business model or something when it comes to game companies.
They did indicate that this last comment - from Morgan was very damaging. More for the indication that they would not be successful in China than anything else. Apparently that's the golden calf everyone is betting on over there to help their businesses.
What guy doesn't want to be 8 ft tall with rippling abs?
8 feet tall? I'll opt out. I already almost lose my head to ceiling fans ithe coal miners that built the homes in my area seem to have liked low ceilings) :P
Given the reaction of many of the women I know, B&S seems particularly bad for women- not really an "idealized" in their view, at all. True, some women may like to be the center of attention like that, but I'm surprised it would be very many.
I do recall a few years back there was a study about the cultural differences among MMO gamers in different cultures, and it noted that Koreans were more self-projecting-- create a single avatar representing oneself to represent you throughout the game (less alting, less gender-switching, more opposition to others' gender-switching) than other markets. For comparison, the Japanese did less self-projecting and more gender-switching- more often, they treated their avatars more like "dolls" to project personalities into, rather than extensions of themselves. Some of this was attributed to the younger age in those demos (younger people are more likely to be seeking romantic attachment online and off, so representing oneself in your avatar correctly (at least in these critical ways) and expecting others to do the same is rather important.
This was an old study-- plenty of time for things to have changed, but it still strikes me as funny, as most of the B&S females seem to be made expressly FOR people wanting the "dolls" to play, pose, and.. umm... fantasize over, rather than project themselves into...
I am not saying what you are insinuating isn't possible. I'm not even saying it's not probable. I actually think that it is more likely. But I think that it is also likely that their stocks are going down because of bad press. Smart investors investigate companies. They watch what they are doing and they look for information on them. When they decided to close down CoX, it did send a bit of a backlash through the internet medias. It would have been very easy for even the most novice of internet sleuth to pick up the information. Couple that with the stocks already starting to decline and I would not have any doubt if it were told to me that this community here has had a rather large role in the stocks being as low as they are.
In the words of Billy Joel: We didn't start the fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g)
But unlike him, we aren't trying to fight it, we are trying to fuel it. I'm laying down my burn patch wherever I can.
Edit: spelling
Here's the thing about stocks. Regardless of stock price, a company is always worth the amount of money someone is willing to pay for the company's assets.
For example: Let's take the CoH IP and well, all the other MMO game IPs that NCSoft has. Let us, for the sake of argument assume that a buyer is found for each and every asset to be sold. All those assets have a value. Divide the sum of those values, and that's what each stock is actually worth, despite stock price.
So, who really gets hurt when the stock price goes down? Noone, really. Unless they were wanting to sell. The largest stockholders take a hit on paper, but these reductions in net worth are rarely worried about. Over time, stock prices generally go up. What we're likely seeing now is the result of curfews for the youth, a weak economy and the occasional anti-ncsoft protest.
basically.
In the last reported quarter, the book value of the NCSoft is roughly $880 million while their market cap at their current stock price is roughly $2.9 billion. That's US dollars BTW. A ratio (Price/Book) of around 3.3.
In comparison Apple has a book value of $112.9 billion and a market cap of $490 billion or a ratio of 4.3. Microsoft's is 3.2, EA is 2.0, Activision/Blizzard is 1.1. BTW numbers near 1 aren't good as it indicates that investors don't believe the company is worth much more than it's physical assets. Less than 1 means the company is worth more to it's stockholders if it was closed and it's assets liquidated than what the stock is worth.
So, what you're saying is that Cap/Book means everything and stock price means nothing. Gotcha.
So, what does stock price mean and why do people follow and talk about it and not your ratio?
The purpose of stock is:
- to indicate perceived value of a company and
- to give companies transparent and accessible way to secure additional funding from investors.
Stock also regulates ownership of the company with person or institution that has the largest amount of stock being the owner.
edit: wording
China has recently had a change of policy concerning MMO's. They are now stricter on allowable female imaging. This may not matter on GW2 but from what i've heard about B&S, it might not be allowed in China without a major overhaul. However, i don't know the specifics on China's new MMO policies and i haven't seen B&S yet, except for the underwhelming images on their US website.B&S has already been overhauled for China. Much more tame.
China has recently had a change of policy concerning MMO's. They are now stricter on allowable female imaging. This may not matter on GW2 but from what i've heard about B&S, it might not be allowed in China without a major overhaul. However, i don't know the specifics on China's new MMO policies and i haven't seen B&S yet, except for the underwhelming images on their US website.
B&S has already been overhauled for China. Much more tame.
I do understand and know this, but my question was more in reference to what the X-mas was saying. My point was that stocks do have a purpose and importance. (I'd guess even moreso than you and X-mas are insinuating.) I was hoping for him to explain his point of view as to where they fall in importance compared to his ratio and if they are as low of importance as he suggested, then why are they treated so important.
My redside disgruntlement is that the people who made these boneheaded decisions will leap from the crashing plane with golden parachutes. My blueside disgruntlement is that the employees are going to get royally shafted.
Although you do have to wonder what "CEO of NCSoft during its nose-dive into the ground" would do to your face, and hence your employability, within the mores of Korean culture...
At least within US business culture, it's rare for those kinds of things to have a negative impact. CEO types tend to all be buddy buddy with each other. I've seen several leap from company to company after they collapse and are hired on without anyone batting an eye, sometimes even given bonuses for leaving their previous failing company before running it completely into the ground.
At least within US business culture, it's rare for those kinds of things to have a negative impact. CEO types tend to all be buddy buddy with each other. I've seen several leap from company to company after they collapse and are hired on without anyone batting an eye, sometimes even given bonuses for leaving their previous failing company before running it completely into the ground.Conversation between two CEOs:
At least within US business culture, it's rare for those kinds of things to have a negative impact. CEO types tend to all be buddy buddy with each other. I've seen several leap from company to company after they collapse and are hired on without anyone batting an eye, sometimes even given bonuses for leaving their previous failing company before running it completely into the ground.
if you look a bit further back, the significant downward trend has been continuing since the first unity rally, they have had minimal upswings since (iirc that was around sept 7)
i do agree that it is unlikely that only our actions could have caused the stock to tumble that much, but it definitely was a wakeup call to ncsoft that they were shutting down a still active community and possibly some of their investors
because ncsoft did what they did in shutting the game down and pretty much consistently lying to everyone why they did it, it pleases me when i see anything negative about ncsoft
many mmos want customer retention though so that they get that continual sub fee
its the f2p ones that seem to want that "one night stand" type of thing
the hybrid ones like coh and CO i think did it best (especially coh) because it gives more power to subscribers but still caters to the poeple who play for free
as was mentioned in that one article where the insider source said the retention rate for coh was 95-98%, most other games companies would kill to have that much, cause just looking up some basic statistics on other games show they are only in the 75-85% range. if coh had some actual advertising and wasnt trying to be strangled by ncsoft constantly it would prolly be much higher playerbase
i think that would be a key factor to actually getting someone interested in buying it, is the very high customer retention rate
i agree that when ncosft finally rung coh's neck and killed it, that definitely put fear out there, cause when a company is willing to kill a game with that high of a retention rate, who knows what other companies might do
At the end it was 95+%. Obviously a game whose annual sales went from $35 million to $11 in 8 years doesn't have a 95% retention rate. However looking at the last two years sales were flat to a slight decline so 95% sounds right, at the end.
And going back to your first comment, I hadn't seen them change their story about why. "Changing focus" can encompass a lot of actual specific reasons. When push came to shove they said it was because Paragon Studio wasn't profitable. Choosing not to support a small development group in the red anymore certainly falls under "changing focus" just as much as "we don't get superheroes" or "we only want to invest in games that will also do well in Korea and Asia, our primary markets".
Let's say they publicly declared the last reason in a PR, would you be happier with a concrete reason. Of course not the game would still be shutting down. But you would have a reason to hang your hat on. You may not like it but it would be a legitimate reason.
My first year in college, 1980, we had a Jack in the Box in town. It closed and not just in town but in all the adjacent towns and cities as well as all the adjacent states. I thought they went out of business nationwide but they simply pulled back to the southwest. Focusing on your primary markets is an acceptable reason.
I use to go to TGI Friday's just for their Peperoni Pizzadilla appetizer, a quesadilla made with peperoni, cheese and pizza sauce. At some point they simply dropped it and all their other alternative quesadillas. Likely it wasn't selling well so they chose to drop them. Ticked me off since I found the rest of their fair rather generic but I can understand it. I'm willing to bet the item itself was profitable, just wasn't in high enough demand to warrant keeping it.
Both of these are rather mediocre analogies but they are examples of legitimate corporate decisions to improve the overall profits of their company which is the whole goal. I haven't been to Friday's since and I haven't had a Jack in the Box burger in over 30 years but the loss of me haven't impacted either company in the long term.
Aside from allowing them to sit on it and see if they ever want to use it again, I think there is a bit of pride involved. It's theirs. Not in a "their baby" sort of way, but in a miserly sort of way. It's theirs, and you can't have it. No, especially because you want to try to make it succeed. We said it couldn't; therefore, it obviously can't. Shut up.
I think there is a lot of personal ego at the top of NCSoft involved in this whole thing, and they may well be simply trying to spite certain people. I can think of a few guesses, but since this whole malice-before-business thought of mine is mostly guesswork, I will leave that to others to imagine.
I will note that they may not be seeing it as malice nor spite, but simply as protecting their image. Which is why the first word I chose to describe this is "pride."
So why do you think they wouldn't be willing to sell it? Does it give them more stock options or something?
This is for FatherXmas, you clearly are very educated about the topic at hand so maybe you can answer this for me. Your analogies about the two restaurants actually was pretty accurate I think, companies have the right to do what is best for the company. The slight difference I see is at any point any other restaurant or you could of made this Peperoni Pizzadilla and sold it (with a different name of course) at any restaurant and while Jack in the Box moved you could still drive down to the south and get some Jack in the Box if you really wanted it. COH is no longer anywhere in the world for anyone to use.
And when profit is the most important thing in a company you think they would make one last profit off something that is now profit-less You already addressed why NCSoft wouldn't sell CoH that also made sense. But why not lease it or "rent it" for example some one pays NCSoft to use the IP. I understand this would still put us at the mercy of NCSoft but it doesn't even seem like they are willing to do that. They would still make money on just owning the IP. Because you seem to be the expert on it. Why is this? Is it because it simply would too much of hassle? Or is just a really poor business decision to "rent" an IP from a company and therefore NCSoft knows no one would do it?
To clarify by "rent" I mean just pay the company royalties for the characters and stories or something along those lines.
And City of Heroes players who want to get their hero on could play Champions Online or DC Universe Online. And burger chains are a dime a dozen in the US. It wasn't like Jack was the only burger chain in the tri-state area (/em Doofenshmirtz).
Well that's what they did with their titles in Europe, both Lineage II and Aion aren't directly run by NCsoft anymore there but by 4game and Gameforge respectively. However the difference is that NCsoft is still handling the development. That's not something either of those companies are responsible for. All they are doing is localizing another company's product and selling it into their local market.
The difference here is while CoH may have been profitable from an operating cost point of view, it was the studio that NCsoft looked to eliminate. And without a studio behind the title continuing development and fixing bugs the game itself didn't have a long shelf live no matter who ran the day to day operations (billing, servers, website, help desk) of the game proper.
Without some of that talented people at Paragon being available to a "new" studio that just maintained and extended the current game, selling went out the window the moment they gave everyone their walking papers. At least when NCsoft bought out Cryptic's stake in the game, they were able to poach most of the current developers who were working on it. No ugly learning curve by tossing the source code to an unfamiliar team of developers. So that is an added cost to whomever buys the game now that Paragon is no more.
Also add into the equation that as soon as they announced the game's closure, those who weren't as passionate as most here on Titan simply made their peace and moved on and now after 4 1/2 months would they be willing to come back or are they now attached to their new MMO of choice? So higher development cost, at least time wise and a likely shrunken playerbase. It makes the game even less attractive now. If NCsoft wanted to sell, they would have had to decided to do that and NOT announce the closure of the game simply to make the property worth more to an outsider. Even if it's just to "rent".
The difficulty of dealing with code someone else wrote is often overblown.
Here you have a big, complex system, but one that actually works and lots of people understand reasonably well what outcomes it produces.
Sounds like paradise compared to some of the projects I've worked on.
CoH's code is an 8 year patchwork of spaghetti code that I'm sure would be very difficult for a new person to decipher.I've had to deal with code-bases of greater complexity that didn't actually work.
CoH's code is an 8 year patchwork of spaghetti code that I'm sure would be very difficult for a new person to decipher.As already posted before by TonyV:
In the way I see it, the whole "code monster" line fom Paragon always sounded a little too vested with self-interest to be believed. Of course Paragon was going to say how impenetrable the code was...because it makes their case that they are the only ones who could run it or make it valuable.
Honestly, what does a shrewd employee say? That he or she is dispensable? Or that he or she has some unique knowledge that is irreplaceable?
If it runs--or even if it was known to have run--it can be deciphered.
The fact is the code is pretty crazy. The original developers were inexperienced and sloppy. They didn't document a lot. The folks we know inherited it without any training. I don't recall anyone ever saying that code was impossible, but that making significant changes was always a herculean task. But despite that, the very small dev team still did things to the game that Cryptic never thought could happen, from powers customization to incarnates and f2p.
In the wild, when time is critical, and you have to figure it out NOW, naturally things are going to be harder to figure out. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a bunch of knowledgeable individuals whose hobby has been taken away from them. No one, however, is suggesting that it's going to be easy.
It also bears mentioning that they worked under much tighter constraints than a deconstruction team - Paragon devs had less leeway for experimentation, as they couldn't afford diverting too many resources or - heaven forbid - pushing a patch that might end up breaking something major to live. A team without these limitations can freely go "okay, let's do this and see what happens".
Well, either way there's a silver lining - if they try cracking down on emulators, that's news-worthy, which is another PR impact NCsoft can ill-afford.
And there's another problem with emulators... NcSoft has a track record of shutting them down. .....
So why do you think they wouldn't be willing to sell it? Does it give them more stock options or something?Honestly, with the exception of EVE, game companies traditionally don't sell off an individual IP. And with EVE it's owners, Simon & Schuster, were getting out of the software business so selling off their portfolio of software IP makes sense in this case. Plus the game wasn't first announced as closing.
NcSoft has shut down emulators for Tabula Rasa, Lineage, and Dungeon Runners. To the point that they seek them out. Cease and Decist letters do not cost much and once server you must comply or face a lot of bad consequences.
The difficulty of dealing with code someone else wrote is often overblown.
Here you have a big, complex system, but one that actually works and lots of people understand reasonably well what outcomes it produces.
Sounds like paradise compared to some of the projects I've worked on.
Actually has NCsoft ever done that? I don't know if any of their shut down games ever got unofficial servers .
What with all the talk about shutting down fan servers of games that have been closed and unavailable, is anyone else here reminded of the Prohibition?
Wouldn't hosting the private server in certain countries take care of most legal concerns? The private server team could also open source the code, effectively making it immortal.
Hrm. Hypothetically speaking,
If someone were to figure out how to get a private server, and release the opensource, would NCsoft be THAT financially impacted? From something that isn't costing them anything, how could they lose money?
What's preventing them from releasing the source code to the community (Besides them being ungrateful tool bags) ?
Valve might do it for the microtransations in the marketplace, but I'm not sure anyone else will.
How pray tell can you force a company to sell it's asset, other than due to bankruptcy? What's the legal logic? And as a class action?How about being personnally damaged by them stopping a service we don't have an equivalent to even pay for ?
How pray tell can you force a company to sell it's asset, other than due to bankruptcy? What's the legal logic? And as a class action?
So a "Plan Y?" (I mean, clearly, our last resort is replacement that cuts NCSoft out entirely)
In my mind the only way this gets done is if you turn the entire thing over to the wild immediately after you get it working.
If 10,000 people can host a server it makes it far harder to do anything about it and then we turn all these very clever people loose on finding a country that won't stop the hosting. Then I would be happy to host a server as long as I live and even for 10 more years with a nice endowment in my will.
How about being personnally damaged by them stopping a service we don't have an equivalent to even pay for ?
So if you played knowing this (You did read the EULA, right? ["Why won't it READ?!" - Steve Jobs]) then you can't sue for that specifically BECAUSE you agreed it would never be an issue.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt, I Am Not A Lawyer.
It's not quite so simple. Eulas have been ruled invalid before, at least the kind where you open a box and "agree" to the eula. I haven't heard of any MMO Eulas being tested in court yet. It'd probably depend a lot on the court in which it is tried. It adds an extra barrier though, part of what tends to take lawsuits away from being useable by the average person. Now, if we had someone who is wealthy and/or a retired lawyer with lots of time on their hands, they could still create a nightmare for NCSoft anyway. (Of course, if we had someone willing to fund a lawsuit like this and they really had enough to go through with it, they'd probably better spend their money paying NCsoft's 80 million extortion money for the game, assuming that's an actual number they'd sell at)
I haven't heard of any MMO Eulas being tested in court yet.
IANAL, but you're correct. Generally speaking, many/most states have legal consideration that puts a lot of scrutiny on the contract-preparer and gives some protection of the so-called "fine print". In essence-- the contract-preparer has an overwhelming influence to exploit the agreement, so if its found that they abuse that privilege by establishing extremely unfair or biased agreements, the courts will invalidate either the whole agreement or those provisions.
Software EULAs- particularly ones that aren't readable until after you break the seal of the package-- or ones that are modified well after you purchase the product like online EULAs- have proven to be some of the least enforceable, with many rulings siding against the software companies that try to hide behind those agreements. The companies continue these practices, though, because it does serve as a deterrent- for many people, the necessary court argument doesn't justify the cost.
Goes without saying, but IANAL also (hence the asking around). The CoH EULA has definitely been modified after purchase.
The idea here is, I'll admit, partially to legally unicorn them. It'd be awesome if a class-action suit forced them to sell the IP and then because of the bad publicity/court costs their stock tanked even harder, but without an actual lawyer's judgment as to whether or not we'd have a case, we don't know if even the first part of that could happen.
Just keep in mind that legal unicorning is a double-edged sword. It may and probably will also hurt the reputation of the unicorns - in this case our community. We may be successful at making their life a little more complicated, but at the same time we may scare away any potential buyer for the game. If you ran a business, would you want to invest into something knowing that if you screw things up, the fans will go straight for your throat?
well "screw things up" and "intentionally overloading a studio to close it out of spite" are 2 different things
i doubt any company would be able to top ncsoft in the douchebaggery factor
Everyone keeps forgetting somehow that NCsoft is the same company that funded the development of the game in the first place and also saved it when Cryptic saw it fit to go work for Microsoft on Marvel MMO that eventually became Champions Online. They helped establish Paragon Studios and kept the game operational for the next full 5 years.
Everyone keeps forgetting somehow that NCsoft is the same company that funded the development of the game in the first place and also saved it when Cryptic saw it fit to go work for Microsoft on Marvel MMO that eventually became Champions Online. They helped establish Paragon Studios and kept the game operational for the next full 5 years.
I didn't forget that. Did they forget we've paid to have the game continue? And that it was profitable?
I can then selectively forget that NCSoft did what they did in the past. I am thankful they did, but that doesn't make this right, Frog. Don't try to make it any less than it is: Betrayal of their player base, and their employees.
All that good they did is undone in that one unfortunate decision to get drunk. That's NCSoft. Except this wasn't their first time being drunk, Richard Garriott can comment upon that time if he wants.
Perhaps this is a good parallel. A person is a perfect driver, never hit anyone, never had an accident, always uses their turn signals, was courteous to other drivers, etc, whatever... they get drunk ONE time, they crash into another car that ONE time, and they hurt someone badly.
But the fact remains that without their effort to keep the game afloat, it could've been shut down back in 2007 or at best entered maintenance mode. Instead the game bloomed like never before.
Don't make it any more than it is. Betrayal? Closure out of spite (that's referring to the post I was replying to)? But of course! Clearly, that is how companies make business decisions in the time of a raging financial crisis.
Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to argue that we are supposed to like them. But the fact remains that without their effort to keep the game afloat, it could've been shut down back in 2007 or at best entered maintenance mode. Instead the game bloomed like never before.
Everyone keeps forgetting somehow that NCsoft is the same company that funded the development of the game in the first place and also saved it when Cryptic saw it fit to go work for Microsoft on Marvel MMO that eventually became Champions Online. They helped establish Paragon Studios and kept the game operational for the next full 5 years.
Houtex: And they COULD SELL. Just because they have a history of not, doesn't mean this couldn't be let go. They are hoarding it for whatever nefarious (at this time that's what it looks like) purposes. Just... let it go be something somewhere else. Excepting desiring to funnel potential CoH sales into something else they offer, there's no other reason not to, when you get down to it... but they don't.
There is SO MUCH they could do to make it less of a problem, but they simply refuse to for... what?
That's why, to me, it's a betrayal. Nothing less. They refuse to work with anyone for... no good reason except to do it. Not even sell the product back to the studio, or just let it keep going and shut down the part of the studio that was doing the never gonna happen product, and start making money from it, or make some money and sell it...
Nope... Just BOOM. Headshot! Drop dead y'all, or hey, come play one of our grindfests, see?
Emotional? Naw. Just callin' it like I see it. May sound like it, but it's not.
Clearly, that is how companies make business decisions in the time of a raging financial crisis.I do hope you mean "in a mindless panic" just here.
Maybe, but it's a false dichotomy - it's also possible that the game would have been picked up by a third company, which might have handled it better than NCsoft. Or it could have gone down forever.
If you think for one instant that I, or indeed most former players who want this game back, are going to decline to play an emulator because NCSoftheaded did this back in the day, then you are even more delusional than NCSoft is for thinking they can "BOOM! HEADSHOT! LOL" us without fear of consequences.
That's just adorable that they did that. Warms the cockles of my heart. And it tempers my present FURY with this company, NOT BY ONE IOTA!!
Huh? Where did not playing an emulator (whatever that means) thing came from? How does your reply relate to what has been discussed?
You were stating [or so it seemed to me] that so far from being angry, or waiting for an emulator that we should instead be grateful to NCSoft for past development of the game; and by inference, that this gratitude should temper our anger at how we have been treated.
Overall your posts come off as very defensive of NCSoft,
you never hesitate to remind us of how dangerous an emulator would be,
I am speaking in general terms here.
Any time someone posts about taking any action, no matter what it is seems like, there you are with "no, we better not do that" because of some perceived horrid danger to ourselves.
I find it unlikely in the extreme that some overseas corporation who is even now literally fighting to survive is going to have time or $$$ to hunt down everyone on an emulator and drone-strike their houses.
People are gonna do what they are gonna do. And if NCStupid does not like that, they should have thought twice before the harebrained "strategy" they adopted, which amounts to pretty much "BOOM, HEADSHOT! LOL!!!" Yeah.... nice. I feel all kinds of loyal. They betrayed us, and by extension damaged the entire MMO industry by introducing a lack of trust.
I havent forgot and that is the main reason I find it hard to just go from "Nooob, how dare you say anything bad about NCSoft" prior to Aug29th to "Nooob, how dare you anything positive about NCSoft."The problem is, NCSoft was never our "Best" Friend. They were just an acquaintance that helped out a couple of times.
I guess people forget and remember the negative stuff more easily. You (just general example not you personally) can be best friends with someone for ages and they trusted you with your life, but do one they dont like then those tens years is as if it never existed. They instead act like you was born their enemy. In hindsight, those ten years of friendship might have well never existed because people remember and like to hear the negative stuff is boring and not remembered. In human minds it seems, 1 negative thing can totally wipe out 1 million positive stuff off the face of the earth as if it never happened. People who played NCSoft game for nearly if not more than a decade and then one day, just in a single day, those positive feelings was nullified.
The problem is, NCSoft was never our "Best" Friend. They were just an acquaintance that helped out a couple of times.
Then, they tuned around and showed us what they really thought of us. Hence, the feelings of betrayal.
I have been "friends" (or so I though) with someone who turned around and betrayed that friendship.
It's one of the reasons that I have a lot of acquaintances and not a lot of friends.
Like the one where I admitted to being a subscriber to the theory that corporations, and by extension NCsoft, are psychopaths?
Now that would be quite funny if I did that, given I am eagerly awaiting for a functional emulator to be finished. Moreover, I am trying to advocate open sourcing the code, so it spreads and becomes immune to potential NCsoft legal scare tactics. (Plus it would be fun to play with the code and submit patches.)
I only do that if I think their actions are pointless and wil end blowing in their faces, while leaving the target unscratched and possibly even unaware of the attempt. Plenty of that around, sadly. Although it's not surprising, given how emotional the subject is. Unfortunately strong emotions have a habit of clouding one's judgement.
You appear to be arguing with yourself again. Or to be precise: your mental image of me, who shares my forum name and avatar, but not my opinions.
I think NCStupid has a few bigger fish to fry right now than worrying about suing American hobbyists on an emulator.
This above is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Let's tiptoe around NCSoft, because of something that might happen in some hypothetical situation somewhere, at some time in the future.
Haven't seen you say that, but sure have seen a lot of stuff like the earlier quote.
Ergo: do nothing.
That doesn't work for me. Nor does it work for a lot of people.
This isnt an argument, but a comment of how your statements appear to others.
this is exactly how i feel about ncsoft, they were in no way a friend just because they bought out the game from cryptic, but when they did a complete 180 and shut us down, theres definitely some ulterior motive going on that they wont tell us about
i dont care if they did technically save the game by buying it out almost 5 or so years ago, what i care about is what happened only the last few months, why did they backstab us exactly? what reason would they have to pull a 180? those are questions that only ncsoft knows the answers to and they sure as heck aint talking
As for Frog I still agree about the double edge sword of legal unicorning. If I were an investor or a buyer. I already would not buy this game. Sure I could be the knight in shining armor now but 5 years later when something may and could change all of sudden I am the villain, I have thousands of fans doing exactly what we are doing now. Fans that are willing to make my company go bankrupt. Lets say I was this company and I gave it a kind goodbye and a epic ending, whats to stop our group from acting out this way again. How would I know I did it right? We speak of how great of a community we are, which is true no arguments, but we don't want to become a community that publishers fear. I admire everyone's passion here I do. But sometimes passion only gets you in trouble. If COH gets brought back at some point it will be shut down again. Maybe in 5 years, maybe in 10 years, maybe 100 years. But noting lasts forever and at some point it will shut down and who ever buys it doesn't wanna get the backlash we have given NCSoft. The most important thing we can do here is show that we just want our IP in better hands not that we "Will do anything in hell or heaven to get back our game regardless of who owns it or who we have to screw." Don't those actions sound kind of familiar?
Before everyone starts lashing out at me calling me a traitor or what ever here are the points that I think are the most important.
It is good to be passionate and fight for something you believe in. But you don't want to fight so hard or get so passionate you scare others off from helping you. We need companies to know we are mad at NCSoft for the decisions they made for this game. Not that the game closed, and not that we feel the company doesn't have a right to close it. We want a company to know that we are just looking for a fair publisher that will treat the game with respect. WE DONT want to come off across "Buy our game and IF YOU EVER LET ANYTHING HAPPEN TO IT, well, just look at what we did to NCSoft"
That's my two cents. Please read all of what I typed before replying to what I said though. I don't want people lashing out at me because they only read half of what I typed
I disagree.. I think a better mindset would be "Oh these people are really into supporting this game. I can make money off them by providing a good product. And if it turns out I can't (or don't want to) provide that in the future, I can count on them not only being reasonable but possibly also helping to find someone who will buy it from me. Why? Because they love this game. As long as I am honest and don't act like a complete tool, they're behind me all the way!"
Just my .02. Yes I know that a lot of businesses want to assume they have complete control over something, I have to hope there are some that are just fine with treating their customer base with respect. If that's not something you'd do as a large business owner, definitely your choice. I just think you'd be making a mistake.
I disagree.. I think a better mindset would be "Oh these people are really into supporting this game. I can make money off them by providing a good product. And if it turns out I can't (or don't want to) provide that in the future, I can count on them not only being reasonable but possibly also helping to find someone who will buy it from me. Why? Because they love this game. As long as I am honest and don't act like a complete tool, they're behind me all the way!"
This is beautiful and very idealistic. I think you weren't around when VV declared that she is going to hire a shaman to ritualistically throw a curse upon NCsoft in front of their office? Or when the early ideas for the Alert The Colbert Nation initiative were flying around? Ah, those were good times.
LOL. Yes, I am sure _that_ is what's on the mind of every potential buyer. Being cursed by a shaman.
However, because of their perceived spiritual power, many people fear them and, as a result, refrain from socializing with them. For the ordinary person, the musok-in is someone to be visited in times of trouble and avoided at other times. A writer or anthropologist planning to visit one is likely be warned by friends to be careful.
I don't read every post here.. just haven't really seen anything that would worry me if I were a large company.
And on that note.. I have this wonderful pot of warm water for you here, Mr Frog. Why don't you sit back and relax for a few minutes..
Just my .02. Yes I know that a lot of businesses want to assume they have complete control over something, I have to hope there are some that are just fine with treating their customer base with respect. If that's not something you'd do as a large business owner, definitely your choice. I just think you'd be making a mistake.
Heh... is there any place left where haggling is still acceptable besides automotive sales and real estate?In America? Probably at the local farmer's market.
In America? Probably at the local farmer's market.
Heh... is there any place left where haggling is still acceptable besides automotive sales and real estate?
Definition of a "Concern Unicorn":
"...someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with 'concerns.' The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. [Such a person] posts on a blog thread, in the guise of 'concern,' to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don't really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, [and] control the dialogue."
"...a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the user claims to hold... posts in Web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed 'concerns.' The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."
"the message is: 'I have some concerns about your methods. If you did these things to make your message less effective, it would be more effective.' ...This preys on a willingness to debate critics and allow dissent; everyone wastes time discussing the matter and bending over backwards, so as not to appear intolerant of disagreement, all to the great amusement of the sender."
"Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a unicorn is usually to ignore it."
Why am I posting this? Oh, no reason. Just a gentle reminder to everybody. Nothing to see here. Please carry on. :: Whistles innocently. ::
Pawn Stars
Comic Book Men
American Pickers
Heh... is there any place left where haggling is still acceptable besides automotive sales and real estate?
Definition of a "Concern Unicorn":
"...someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with 'concerns.' The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. [Such a person] posts on a blog thread, in the guise of 'concern,' to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don't really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, [and] control the dialogue."
"...a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the user claims to hold... posts in Web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed 'concerns.' The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."
"the message is: 'I have some concerns about your methods. If you did these things to make your message less effective, it would be more effective.' ...This preys on a willingness to debate critics and allow dissent; everyone wastes time discussing the matter and bending over backwards, so as not to appear intolerant of disagreement, all to the great amusement of the sender."
"Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a unicorn is usually to ignore it."
Why am I posting this? Oh, no reason. Just a gentle reminder to everybody. Nothing to see here. Please carry on. :: Whistles innocently. ::
Colette: Definition of a "Concern Unicorn": [...]
Definition of a "Concern Unicorn" [...]
Definition of a "Concern Unicorn":
Oh well, I've been exposed. There's no denying it now, I suppose
Admitting that you have a problem is the first step towards recovery ;P
Definition of a "Concern Unicorn":
"...someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with 'concerns.' The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. [Such a person] posts on a blog thread, in the guise of 'concern,' to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don't really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, [and] control the dialogue."
"...a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the user claims to hold... posts in Web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed 'concerns.' The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."
"the message is: 'I have some concerns about your methods. If you did these things to make your message less effective, it would be more effective.' ...This preys on a willingness to debate critics and allow dissent; everyone wastes time discussing the matter and bending over backwards, so as not to appear intolerant of disagreement, all to the great amusement of the sender."
"Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a unicorn is usually to ignore it."
Why am I posting this? Oh, no reason. Just a gentle reminder to everybody. Nothing to see here. Please carry on. :: Whistles innocently. ::
Well Taceus, this is not just relative to this thread, but has been seen in many others as well. Whatever others do about the loss of CoX, Frog does not like it: from serious stuff to Victoria joking about having a sorcerer cast a hex on the company. He does not like it! The fact that others even think of defying NCStupid: he does not like it! He just plain ol' does not like anyone taking action in a way that might harm or embarrass NCSoft.
People are finally starting to call him on it.
Thankfully it is not my fight, so that's all I'll say.
Well Taceus, this is not just relative to this thread, but has been seen in many others as well. Whatever others do about the loss of CoX, Frog does not like it: from serious stuff to Victoria joking about having a sorcerer cast a hex on the company. He does not like it! The fact that others even think of defying NCStupid: he does not like it! He just plain ol' does not like anyone taking action in a way that might harm or embarrass NCSoft.
People are finally starting to call him on it.
Thankfully it is not my fight, so that's all I'll say.
i concur, basically anytime i see them in a thread their posts are just massive derailment to the main topic of said threadWho is them NecrotechMaster?
derailment to the main topic of said threadthe OP is about the NCSoft Stock watch, we are all guilty of thread derailment here and the way this came to be is Little Frog talking about not being to aggressive and scaring off possible buyers or investors, that IS somewhat related to stock watch and it only stopped being related to stock watch when this little argument came up.
Who is them NecrotechMaster?
the OP is about the NCSoft Stock watch, we are all guilty of thread derailment here and the way this came to be is Little Frog talking about not being to aggressive and scaring off possible buyers or investors, that IS somewhat related to stock watch and it only stopped being related to stock watch when this little argument came up.
That I respect Illusionss, your point is valid and you aren't name calling. And your two cents is always welcome to me just like everyone else. That is what bothered me about the above post by Collete, it seems at times that most people here are willing to share their two cents, but not hear the two cents of someone who feels different. At least in extreme cases of swinging opinions like this one. I have seen Frog disagree with many, many people on this forum. In fact I have disagreed with Frog on many topics. But I, personally, never once got the feeling he/she was a unicorn if anything someone who just happens to have completely different opinions of those on here. Just to clarify I am not saying anyone is wrong here, just that I don't agree with the topic at hand Who is them NecrotechMaster? the OP is about the NCSoft Stock watch, we are all guilty of thread derailment here and the way this came to be is Little Frog talking about not being to aggressive and scaring off possible buyers or investors, that IS somewhat related to stock watch and it only stopped being related to stock watch when this little argument came up.
They're crawling out of their hole this week. What happened to spark that?No idea. At least, I'm not seeing anything across a few easily checked news feeds.
Okay, that was interesting, but... well, damn, I'm not gonna answer all of that because I'm not even sure what that was. :P I will say this: the idea is to partially unicorn NCSoft with a class-action lawsuit. The main idea is to get them to relinquish the IP. That means a suit would be filed with every intention of going to court, because my preliminary investigation reveals these things are not cheap to file. So whoever files one has to be committed to see it through to the end. That said, the hope would be that news of the suit would cause their stock to tank, them to panic, and cave without ever going to trial.
As for concerns about a buyer looking askance at the fan base committed enough to take that kind of drastic step? I believe NCSoft's pancakery with regard to us would be unprecedented here if they themselves hadn't already set the precedent themselves several times over.
To me the idea of a class action suit to force NCsoft to sell the IP is like a group of neighbors who use to borrow one guys sweet riding lawnmower to do their own yards but he now refuses to let them anymore now that he got a new one so they are suing to force him to sell the old one to them. Unless there was some co-ownership agreement in place, no court will force an entity to sell their wholly owned property against their will, period. And in our case we were merely users of a service that is simply no longer available, never co-owners.
Morgan Stanley still lists NCSoft as a stock to be dumped. Wildstar is no closer to being rolled out, and I have it on extremely good authority that Carbine is operating under "two month warnings" now, which is NO way to run a company nor to get your creative people to do anything other than start looking for jobs elsewhere. GW2 is still underperforming. Despite all the trumpeting of projects to come with Nexxon, not a single project has been announced. Games which were supposed to be released in China by now have not been. Games which were supposed to have been released in the US by now have not been.
Sooner or later someone is going to notice all these things.
Morgan Stanley still lists NCSoft as a stock to be dumped. Wildstar is no closer to being rolled out, and I have it on extremely good authority that Carbine is operating under "two month warnings" now, which is NO way to run a company nor to get your creative people to do anything other than start looking for jobs elsewhere. GW2 is still underperforming. Despite all the trumpeting of projects to come with Nexxon, not a single project has been announced. Games which were supposed to be released in China by now have not been. Games which were supposed to have been released in the US by now have not been.
Sooner or later someone is going to notice all these things.
Morgan Stanley still lists NCSoft as a stock to be dumped. Wildstar is no closer to being rolled out, and I have it on extremely good authority that Carbine is operating under "two month warnings" now, which is NO way to run a company nor to get your creative people to do anything other than start looking for jobs elsewhere. GW2 is still underperforming. Despite all the trumpeting of projects to come with Nexxon, not a single project has been announced. Games which were supposed to be released in China by now have not been. Games which were supposed to have been released in the US by now have not been.
Sooner or later someone is going to notice all these things.
To me the idea of a class action suit to force NCsoft to sell the IP is like a group of neighbors who use to borrow one guys sweet riding lawnmower to do their own yards but he now refuses to let them anymore now that he got a new one so they are suing to force him to sell the old one to them. Unless there was some co-ownership agreement in place, no court will force an entity to sell their wholly owned property against their will, period. And in our case we were merely users of a service that is simply no longer available, never co-owners.
At this point I firmly believe that NCSoft will go down clutching that IP to their collective chest, last thing they ever do is going to be hold onto that IP with a death-grip and never, ever let go. The waves will wash over their head and they will die proud, CoX IP in hand. "NEVER WILL YOU TOUCH OUR SACRED PRECIOUS GAME!!" Now, since they hold it so very dear one is forced to wonder: then why kill the game in the first place? But no, logic does not apply here. No point in wondering.
I'm not panicking, I just dont think they will sell. Out of spite, if nothing else. There is no way anyone is giving them eighty million dollars for an eight-year-old game, and they know it. Its just spitefulness at this point.
I am honestly amazed they are not asking 100 milion.
I have no evidence to back it up, but my gut feeling is that the $80m was the "no strings attached" counteroffer rather than the original price with all the crazy liability that they wanted the buyers to assume.
My theory is they are paranoid about some legal issues in the wake of the Gariott ruling and were looking for someone to take that risk off their hands -- or pay an equivalent amount of cash as somebody was afraid they might stand to lose.
It's still a ridiculous number, just a theory as to where it might have come from.
I have it on extremely good authority that Carbine is operating under "two month warnings" now, which is NO way to run a company nor to get your creative people to do anything other than start looking for jobs elsewhere.Not trying to be argumentative here, as I can see how this could be...problematic, but what would be the right way to handle a studio of creative types who are not delivering on time? You needed it out this month, and they're still saying "it'll be done when it's done" or some variant. What is the proper way to motivate them to finish without driving them to quit?
Not trying to be argumentative here, as I can see how this could be...problematic, but what would be the right way to handle a studio of creative types who are not delivering on time? You needed it out this month, and they're still saying "it'll be done when it's done" or some variant. What is the proper way to motivate them to finish without driving them to quit?
Not trying to be argumentative here, as I can see how this could be...problematic, but what would be the right way to handle a studio of creative types who are not delivering on time? You needed it out this month, and they're still saying "it'll be done when it's done" or some variant. What is the proper way to motivate them to finish without driving them to quit?
The $80 million was to take everything including some undisclosed potential liabilities.
It was basically like an Ebay buy now button. If you wanted to keep the game running without shutting down and get rid of NCSoft - $80 million did it. After the game shutdown - the liabilities were removed and they could sell it straight up for the IP.
We have absolutely no public knowledge of any offers for the IP alone since the closure.
Since then we have heard absolutely nothing from any source about any offers - at least posted publicly and not on Twitter.
The idea of going after NCsoft because they closed ARE GAME!!! is silly and would be thrown out of court in extremely short order. Want to really scare NCsoft with a lawsuit? Dig up some dirt on them, get your hands on a memo or email that looks bad in the sunlight and threaten the lawsuit then. You could send NCsoft a certified letter saying "We're filing a lawsuit because you closed COH" and they'd welcome it. I'm positive a company like NCsoft probably does 100 illegal things a day, find an example of that to throw at them and now we're talking.
We don't need to be a community of sad refugees anymore, we need to be activists dedicated to making NCsoft hurt until they sell CoH.
... unless ncsoft is seriously failing as a company and goes bankrupt to which they will have to liquidate their assets
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize we had an actual lawyer present, y'all. Well, if you can't tell the difference between "our" and "are" then I guess you must be the sharpest legal mind ever to grace these here forums, I reckon. :roll:
Sarcasm aside, in some cases in the U.S. you can file a suit against a company as a shareholder if your stock's value decreases significantly and you can prove the company didn't do some very obvious things to prevent that from happening. NCSoft's stock is tanking after they closed a profitable game and pissed away a LOT of future customers and goodwill. If they were based in the U.S., that would easily be grounds for a shareholder lawsuit.
Like I said, I am investigating. This may not turn out to be a viable path but until I hear from an actual, honest-to-goodness, degreed, certified, practicing lawyer, I'm not just going to stop looking into it on any one person's say so. Ahem.
Yeah I heard what this 80 million price tag was supposed to entail.
But sounds like there is really no known source of this information is what I'm getting from your statement? It's all just all floating rumor?
I was NEVER able to find a reliable source for that number.
This would be ideal.
Where did it come from, then?
I'm disappointed in myself for reporting on it if it wasn't as reliable a number as I had thought.
I suppose everyone makes such failures of confirmation of evidence on occasion.
I was NEVER able to find a reliable source for that number. Brian's number was the much-more-reasonable one that was 1/8 of that price.
Well now, you have to remember that what is LEGAL and what is INTERESTING are two different things. For instance, apparently it is not fraudulent for NCSoft to value all their IPs together at about $3m for tax purposes, yet tell their stockholders that CoH itself is worth $80m. It's not fraudulent...but it's not ethical, and I bet their stockholders don't know that little tidbit of information. And that is the sort of thing they would find very difficult to explain to a CNN business reporter.
Let me say I very recently got the $80 million figure from a third-party source I consider trustworthy, along with some other information that would probably send blood pressures soaring, but I need to get confirmation of that figure from the parties directly involved.
Brian's number was the much-more-reasonable one that was 1/8 of that price.
But you were the one who first mentioned it.
And later.
I assume you meant you couldn't get another independent source to confirm it. So your trustworthy source was giving you a number that when shared would naturally outrage us all and thus be perpetuated throughout the MMO media as we spread the story?
You have made a fundamental error in conflating two very different numbers. You are mistaking the number pulled from the stockholder's report on the value of the CoH IP for a number that NCSoft was ASKING for the CoH IP. The 80 million figure is right there in the stockholder's report for anyone to see, including you. I was never able to confirm that NCSoft ever ASKED 80 million.
...Okay, well It looks like NCSoft's bump was just that. Their stocks could still rise, but it looks like this was a normal fluctuation in what looks like a brief plateau. Would you call a flat spot after a drop a plateau? A valley? A meadow?Yes, because being up 6% for the week is a plateau and dropping 0.33% from the closing high for the week is a downturn.
It keeps bouncing like someone who's been hung with a bungee cord...sounds like average stock.
It keeps bouncing like someone who's been hung with a bungee cord...
It keeps bouncing like someone who's been hung with a bungee cord...
I'll take some of that popcorn, Uruzsix.
Let's see, they had two million boxes of GW2 sold within a week or two of launch, didn't get their third million until the holidays...
to top that off, they were expecting 6 million copies at launch lol
just to twist the knife in their wound lol
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.milehimama.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F06%2Freal-genius-popcorn-house.jpg)
Let's see, they had two million boxes of GW2 sold within a week or two of launch, didn't get their third million until the holidays...
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.milehimama.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F06%2Freal-genius-popcorn-house.jpg)
Good question. So far, the drop in Lineage and Aion coincides with B&S and GW2's release - I suspect a fair chunk of their subscribers are simply cannibalization from their other games.
Honestly, though, what I want to keep an eye most on is this chart:
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=mmofallout.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F11%2Fncsoftq3-607x263.png)
Does Lineage and Aion rebound? Does GW2 and B&S hold steady or even trend up?
They're dropping again. Down about 9000, scraping a new low of 141.
Odd thing with that graph is that 'other' is supposed to include CoH (?), but is lower than the numbers Xmas is showing for CoH alone.
As for GW2 and BS, I would be shocked if those two show increased sales. Maybe slight, but based on the history of other games, the initial spike of sales is quickly followed by drops or plateaus.
BS hasn't gone beyond Korea, correct? If not, I don't see sales going anywhere but down. GW2 probably had a bump with that Time article, but there's been some bad press as well about it, so could be a wash. What else is NCSoft selling that would affect their Q4 numbers positively?
They're dropping again. Down about 9000, scraping a new low of 141.
Duplicated the chart with CoH, GW and TR.
(https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a213/FatherXmas/Charts/NCsoftGames_zps4faf0b49.jpg)
Hmm, I was under the impression the first Guild Wars was more successful then that. Also, I can't see how games like Trickster Online and PangYa could contribute massively towards that pretty big bump in the 'other' line, unless I'm underestimating the power of F2P games like that
In what way? It had significantly higher sales than CoH until third quarter 2008. In some quarters nearly 3x the sales.
As for the "Other" line they did acquire Ntreev for a reason. You tend not to buy a company that doesn't have a good cash flow. As for those games, after checking out screen shots, I starting to see a pattern with them and B&S. Very anime fantasy loli girl character design.
Edit: you can't see how successful a cash item shop with numerous P2W options in a golf/rpg game?
I'm not sure if UruzSix's graph was his own or lifted from somewhere else but it simply didn't include CoH or the original Guild Wars series, I assume because they weren't broken out in the last quarter. They simply decided only to list the top X number of games based on sales and if you aren't one of those you get shoved into "Other". This included games like Exteel, Dungeon Runners, Auto Assault, small games that are only available in Asia and games they decided to no longer list separately, like Tabula Rasa in it's closing quarters.
As for Guild Wars, I thought it would be above the 25000 line more regularly and occasionally challenging Lineage. Hell, I thought it would have been more consistent rather then jumping up and down as it did before settling only slightly above and then dropping under CoH. They have just sunk masses into it's sequel, after all, so I did think it had been more of a run away success then CoH was.Guild Wars didn't have a subscription, so there was nothing to sustain them other than their extremely-meager cash shop and late-buyers between expansions. The bumps basically coincide with new boxes. Nothing surprising in there. Guild Wars sold more than six million copies of the game (plus an unverifiable amount of cash shop sales). Six million boxes times twenty to sixty per box (depending on the box). That is more money than City brought in over its whole life. And GW still has boxes out there and their cash shop is still present.
Guild Wars didn't have a subscription, so there was nothing to sustain them other than their extremely-meager cash shop and late-buyers between expansions. The bumps basically coincide with new boxes. Nothing surprising in there. Guild Wars sold more than six million copies of the game (plus an unverifiable amount of cash shop sales). Six million boxes times twenty to sixty per box (depending on the box). That is more money than City brought in over its whole life. And GW still has boxes out there and their cash shop is still present.
Ah, didn't realize they only acquired Ntreev in 2011. When I noticed it on the wikipedia article with such a similar name, I thought they'd held it for a lot longer. So yes, it makes more sense now, even if it does enforce the Korean gamer stereotype (anything with anime girls in and they're all over it)
As for Guild Wars, I thought it would be above the 25000 line more regularly and occasionally challenging Lineage. Hell, I thought it would have been more consistent rather then jumping up and down as it did before settling only slightly above and then dropping under CoH. They have just sunk masses into it's sequel, after all, so I did think it had been more of a run away success then CoH was.
I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing if Guild Wars didn't have 3 expansions in fairly quick succession (2 in 2006 and a third in 2007 and a forth in 2010), then it would have dropped under CoH and likely stayed there. Except for City of Villians release, CoH has remained surprisingly consistent. Hell, it shows how much NCsoft is focused on the short term (something it shares with all major publishers these days) as they put a huge amount into Guild Wars 2 after it's successor boasted at least over a million accounts at one stage (that was in 2006, haven't been able to find any real numbers yet) yet never significantly outperformed CoH for long, an under advertised niche game with a subscription model and fewer players.
That's just my observations of it and they may be wrong. Time will tell if GW2 follows a similar pattern, but being a pay then free game, it's probably to be expected.
I know Guild Wars didn't have a subscription... where did all these numbers come from again?
Down 4000 in two days. I hope FatherXmas is wrong, and this isn't profit-taking.
They haven't reversed their massive loss in Novenber, and appear to be sinking very, very slowly. Does anyone know if they have some other cool game in the pipe to buoy them?
Guild Wars didn't have a subscription, so there was nothing to sustain them other than their extremely-meager cash shop and late-buyers between expansions. The bumps basically coincide with new boxes. Nothing surprising in there. Guild Wars sold more than six million copies of the game (plus an unverifiable amount of cash shop sales). Six million boxes times twenty to sixty per box (depending on the box). That is more money than City brought in over its whole life. And GW still has boxes out there and their cash shop is still present.
$20-60 was the retail price, NCsoft only got whatever they sold the box to the reseller for (no more than about $20 even for the initial release in relatively small quantities for a no-clout retailer). I believe the lifetime revenues for CoH and GW were actually fairly similar through CoH's closure.
Ladies and Gents, NCSoft stock is at a new 52-week low (or it was a few minutes ago). They are currently down 6000 from the previous day's trading start.
Ladies and Gents, NCSoft stock is at a new 52-week low (or it was a few minutes ago). They are currently down 6000 from the previous day's trading start.(https://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv152/zacwyl/ManiacalLaughter.jpg)
how much longer you think before they will be under 130k won? lol
Why does their stock graph remind me of my grades both times I had to take Calculus, in high school and in college?
(Hint: I'm an English major twice over, B.A. and M.A., and I teach English for a living.)
:)
I'm not buying my party supplies just yet. But looking at the long-range graph, they have never been able to regain their peak share price of late 2011. Unless they have some ace up their sleeve, their current trajectory leads to buyout by mid-2014.
If NCSoft goes belly-up, how much would we need to ensure we can buy CoH at the liquidation auction? We'd need to rent or buy a server too....
I'm not being Pro-NCsoft, I'm just trying to convey that stock price, while subject to public opinion to a degree, isn't something that will negatively impact the company. It won't even go to 0 simply because there is a lower bound that's dictated by the actual company fundamentals like sales and profit. It's what those 40 or so analysts say that will affect the stock price way more than a news piece about how they abandon entire communities of players with little or no explanation as to why.
Yesterday I was at the gym watch CNBC after the market closed and watched the second by second coverage of Facebook's stock price plumet in after hours trading when they released their earnings for the quarter and year (initial drop after hours was 8%). Even though the quarter outperformed the consensus estimates it got hammered because one analyst downgraded from a buy to a hold (2 steps). Just one guy even when others are raising their estimates on both sales and profits in 2013 for the company. The stock is almost back up to where it closed yesterday.
The market moves in mysterious ways. It doesn't always make sense and using it as a scoreboard for "pain inflicted" just doesn't make any sense.
Pure fantasy I'm afraid. If the stock craters and, say, Nexon decides to cut their losses and sell their stock, who do you think will be first in line to buy it back?
How much longer you think before they will be under 130k won?"
Only about 8,000 to go.
"I'm not being Pro-NCsoft."
I doubt anybody here is.
Yesterday I was at the gym watch CNBC after the market closed and watched the second by second coverage of Facebook's stock price plumet in after hours trading when they released their earnings for the quarter and year (initial drop after hours was 8%). Even though the quarter outperformed the consensus estimates it got hammered because one analyst downgraded from a buy to a hold (2 steps). Just one guy even when others are raising their estimates on both sales and profits in 2013 for the company. The stock is almost back up to where it closed yesterday.
Ladies and Gents, NCSoft stock is at a new 52-week low (or it was a few minutes ago). They are currently down 6000 from the previous day's trading start.
Ghu, but the six-month view of their stock prices over at Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) looks pretty... (defaults to 3-month view; go up and click on '6 mos' under the row of blue buttons)
Although I'm not sure that NCSoft's decision to shutter City of Heroes wasn't just another set of nails in the coffin -- if you look at the two-year view it's pretty clear that they've been on a long-term slide since October of 2011; a longer view shows their stock price at a pretty steady climb up to that point, and a steady decline since then. There are two rallies that level off and decline again, then a third that -- almost perfectly timed to the Unity rally -- doesn't even bother leveling off before doing a split-S and taking off for the ground. It looks to me as if NCSoft has been mismanaged for going on two years now, and the closure of City of Heroes is only one symptom of that.
Father Xmas, I think you've implied that unless they have some huge expenses...like the new HQ they are building in a very pricy section of Seoul...plus a downturn in actual money being taken in, even the stock price dropping into the basement won't wreck the company because they supposedly have some big cash reserves they haven't spent.
The only thing I am interested in is how to get them to turn loose of the IP.
hmm, well with ncsofts crazy way of doing business i wouldnt doubt it if they actually attempted to pull that off
and yes i agree it does look like something out of simcity
Father Xmas, I think you've implied that unless they have some huge expenses...like the new HQ they are building in a very pricy section of Seoul...plus a downturn in actual money being taken in, even the stock price dropping into the basement won't wreck the company because they supposedly have some big cash reserves they haven't spent.The stock plummet only hurts those who own it. This includes some of those responsible for the decision-making, so it's good in that light, but even if the stock dropped to "people are paying to get it off their portfolio," the company could run just fine. Not a dime of the money that's measuring the value of their stock is actually going into the company coffers nor supporting a single jot of their operating budget. Not unless they release new stock to the public, diluting the shares that are already out there.
The only thing I am interested in is how to get them to turn loose of the IP.
No that was the idea for Pangyo's city center. NCsoft just has a building (http://maps.google.com/?ll=37.399219,127.108775&spn=0.0028,0.004458&t=h&z=18) with a spiffy little park over in the R&D park. I'm guessing that picture is around 9-12 months old. Now zoom out and pan to the right and tell me that it doesn't look like SimCity with all the apartment complexes.
The stock plummet only hurts those who own it. This includes some of those responsible for the decision-making, so it's good in that light, but even if the stock dropped to "people are paying to get it off their portfolio," the company could run just fine. Not a dime of the money that's measuring the value of their stock is actually going into the company coffers nor supporting a single jot of their operating budget. Not unless they release new stock to the public, diluting the shares that are already out there.
So the only way we're going to get them to turn loose the IP is if we can get the stock prices to be embarrassing and make those who hold them and make decisions think and hope that releasing it would reduce the embarrassment.
Father Xmas, I think you've implied that unless they have some huge expenses...like the new HQ they are building in a very pricy section of Seoul...plus a downturn in actual money being taken in, even the stock price dropping into the basement won't wreck the company because they supposedly have some big cash reserves they haven't spent.
The only thing I am interested in is how to get them to turn loose of the IP.
[Edit:] I still like to see their stock plummet, since NCsoft and Kim each own about 10% of the shares. The recent drops have cost that duo twice what the new baseball team did. :D
i think this is the main reason why poeple are monitoring the stock prices since ncsoft, nexon, and kim himself all have a pretty good amount of the total stock shares, they are the ones losing money on the stock dropping
yes stocks themselves dont determine how a company is doing, but when the owners of said company own 25-30% of the stock, they are the ones getting burned by the stock drops
A bunch of stuff I wouldn't want to hear no matter what company it was
Disgusting. Must be nice to be able to make a million mistakes and still not fail.
In 3Q of 2011, just before the peak the stock reached, NCsoft had a TTM P/E of 52.5, which is why I was saying the stock was insanely overpriced. At the time of this Daewoo report, the stock price was 347,000 with a target price of 600,000 (?!?!). Can we say irrational exuberance. Knew you could.
And considering how dismal 4Q was last year it's likely that those two numbers will go up by 40-50% at a minimum. So unless their costs spiraled out of control or sales collapsed since 3Q, I'm expecting the stock to rebound back up to around 200,000 (149,000-264,000). It may not be all at once but for those who are living vicariously through every NCsoft stock price drop, brace yourselves.
Get in first on an emerging market
Wait, that's out now? I'd be interested to see it, if it is.
Same! Nothing on the quarterlies page yet.
The slow dive continues. You'd think anyone who had money in this stock would have bailed long ago. The stock's been a consistent loser since November.
But of course, we'll see if the quarterlies changes things.
There's no way Lineage is doing those kinds of numbers.
I can't help but wonder if the jump in Lineage sales is people getting bored of yet another generic anime grindfest and going back to what they were playing before that. Hell, you could attribute the drop in Aion sales to the same thing if you wanted to. No straight evidence in either case, but I still can't help but wonder.
Or they know that they can play Lineage on older, slower hardware while B&S, L2 and Aion need a more "modern" gaming rig.
Rwoot! Rwoot! Red Alert!
I think the bottom mighta just fallen out.
Just hit their new 52 wk low of 131,500
China's required changes hurt NCSoftcore big time. Lets face it, if you were a teenage boy...getting your hands on a Playboy was the ultimate "win". Put clothes on those girls and it's just the Sears underwear section. Perhaps I have done an overshare on me at age 14 :o
China's required changes hurt NCSoftcore big time. Lets face it, if you were a teenage boy...getting your hands on a Playboy was the ultimate "win". Put clothes on those girls and it's just the Sears underwear section. Perhaps I have done an overshare on me at age 14 :o
Or they know that they can play Lineage on older, slower hardware while B&S, L2 and Aion need a more "modern" gaming rig.
Playboy was wasa good win in my day but getting a hands on a Hustler, ya was King. That is until parents caught you and made a monkey out of ya. Then ya was the Jester.
Well, maybe if their stock continues to freefall they'll get desperate enough to sell the IP rights to CoX to another studio. I might just be being hopeful, but we have to maintain some hope. I miss our world. :(Me too!
Well, maybe if their stock continues to freefall they'll get desperate enough to sell the IP rights to CoX to another studio. I might just be being hopeful, but we have to maintain some hope. I miss our world. :(They might but doubt even if they sell the IP it would stop stocks from falling, especially for 2-8 million selling price. They probably just fire more worker bees first starting with their international employees and on down to their domestic employees when fit really hits the shan. There stock is not freefall yet. A freefall graph kind of look like what GM looked like a while ago prior to their bailout (when it hit rock bottom declared banruptcy, got bailed out and picked up a new stock ID.). Even then the CEo still walked away with a very hefty pay day even after running the company into the ground. In the end on people that suffer is the ones trying to put food on the table to survive. The CEO might eventually "offcially" resign, buy a private island and not lose a bit of sleep over the people that is now employed while counting the millions he walked away with even after doing a terrible job. Even if worse case for them and they go into bankruptcy and COX IP is sold it doesnt mean it will be revived. Spyker bought Saab during GM banruptcy and there havent been a new Saab since it was sold and no talks of it being revived. Saturn, is now considered defunct in 2010 and no buyer could be found, same with Hummer and rest of assets were sold to "Vehicle Acquisition Holdings LLC" which now operating under (lo and behold) The General Motors Company LLC. Of course processes may be different for a much smaller company and one in a different country but the main point is that even if they declare bankruptcy, the fate of the IP is just as uncertain as it is now. Not to mention there is nothing really stopping Nexon from upsurping NCSoft in that case and carrying on the current path and operations as is without even giving a single thought to the COX IP. Or they may pull an Enron which may or may not be an illegal process over there. These jokers may be seemingly "odd" in their decisions but remember they are not complete idiots and probably know the ins and outs to keep as much as they can under their control in one way or another.
"Right now they have seen the best GW2 is ever going to do. BS is tanking. Wildstar is nowhere to be found. Would you buy their stock based on that?"
-- DarkCurrent
Yeah, lemme answer that this way...
(https://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s556/JackNolan1/derpy_zps60d6785c.jpg)
Boom, now under ₩130,000. That's over 60% off their 52-week high. Father Xmas makes some valid points about companies not being run according to stock price, but you can't deny that it does have an effect. If I were a stockholder right now, I'd be VERY pissed off and demanding that the company do something to stop the bleeding of my money. I'm just sayin'...
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i.qkme.me%2F7c3w.jpg)lol. It seems so with alot of casualties. Except inthis case doubt the Captain will go down with the ship. Probably will be on the first life boat out of there.
Do we know how their stock is doing relative it's countries economy? (Or relative to its most financially dependent country?) Relative to it's peers?
Oh, it will go lower... Mhh mhh... Muh Muah! Hah! Hah! hah hah ha ha....
128.5
I'd say Carbine Studios is getting really nervous right about now.
Hmmm depends on how big my "parachute" is.In your defense, you would probably have never let your company get that bad in the first place.
If it's not big at all, I'd be pissed. If nice sized and the size that the old GM CEO got for being booted, I probably wouldnt give a damn. :P
Nah, my heart is too big. I'd be upset at myself for failing and letting the workers that depended on that work down. I'd give up "parachute" if it means people still can keep their jobs and start from top down instead of bottom up if I have to cut people out. Why? The bottom rings probably have a lot riding on their paycheck while the higher ups problems are more in the lines of "oh well, no new Maserati this week. MY WORLD IS ENDING!!!" That's just me, and probably would be kicked (voted out if public corporation) out if I tried that and the bottom ring people probably will still lose their jobs.
In your defense, you would probably have never let your company get that bad in the first place.yeah.
Boom, now under ₩130,000. That's over 60% off their 52-week high. Father Xmas makes some valid points about companies not being run according to stock price, but you can't deny that it does have an effect. If I were a stockholder right now, I'd be VERY pissed off and demanding that the company do something to stop the bleeding of my money. I'm just sayin'...
They'd probably take Lineage 2 out of the western market like they did the first one, if anything. Or cancel B&S coming here or something.
Back when Aion came out, NCsoft became the new hot girl all the guys wanted to hook up with and now it looks like word got out that she's psycho ex-girlfriend material and everyone to trying to flee.
They'd better be thinking about the best way to GTFO. I would be, anyways.
Carbine is probably next on the chopping block, then I WOULD NOT BE AT ALL SURPRISED to see another of NCSoft's older games get the axe. Which one? Dunno, but profitability alone will not save it. If they want it gone its gone, and be damned to the money. We dont need money, and dont ask why we're closing! Let's just only remember the good things, shall we?
What a bunch of dyed-in-the-wool geniuses. LOL!
It's not going to look good if they axe Wildstar after hyping it as much as they have.
What hype? Aside from the occasional gaming site article and slapping one of the characters on their English facebook banner I've seen little "hype" for Wildstar.
Knowing NCsoft and their tendency towards certain fashion styles, it's probably been renamed 'Stars Gone Wild'.
What hype? Aside from the occasional gaming site article and slapping one of the characters on their English facebook banner I've seen little "hype" for Wildstar.
Back when Aion came out, NCsoft became the new hot girl all the guys wanted to hook up with and now it looks like word got out that she's psycho ex-girlfriend material and everyone to trying to flee.LMAO! I'm sorely tempted to put that on a t-shirt... :)
Even if worse case for them and they go into bankruptcy and COX IP is sold it doesnt mean it will be revived.
What hype? Aside from the occasional gaming site article and slapping one of the characters on their English facebook banner I've seen little "hype" for Wildstar.
Read this (http://) thread about Wildstar.
Um...
Here's the problem with Carbine, NCsoft is telling investors that Wildstar will be their next big hit coming out of the west. See GW2, just wait for Wildstar. NCsoft had been hyping GW2 and B&S for the past four plus years. They have no other MMO in development other than Wildstar and Lineage Eternal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oOw3TQufzI) (video). It's not going to look good if they axe Wildstar after hyping it as much as they have.
Fixed now. Helps to actually paste it in.
We attribute disappointing 2012 earnings to: 1) Blade & Soul's underwhelming performance (in contrast to the blockbuster hit of rival game League of Legends), and 2) a sharp decline in the number of players for existing games (Aion, etc.).
We anticipate new significant game momentum beginning this March due to the 1Q release of the mobile version of Lineage I (co-developed with top Japanese mobile game provider GREE), as well as from Blade & Soul, which is scheduled to hit the Chinese market in 3Q (following a large-scale 1H beta test).
We anticipate NCsoft will also launch a mobile version of Blade & Soul in 1H through one of Japan's leading mobile-gaming platform operators, DeNA. NCsoft plans to roll out its new title WildStar (currently being developed by US-based Carbine Studios) in 2H usingCD packages in the US and Europe. It also intends to launch Guild Wars 2 in China, Taiwan, and Japan. An expansion pack for Guild Wars 2 is slated for a 2H release in the US and Europe.
We are not overly concerned about release delays or outright flops (as we have seen in the past), as current share prices and earnings expectations do not seem to price in prospects for new games.
I see right now where Wildstar is going and so does every gamer who has ever played an MMO.
They are going to be pressured to release it before its done. It will be bug filled and lack content with no end game at the time of release. This will tick off people who wanted more and then it will drag along for a year until they fix all the junk.
You can't do this any more - people have too much choice.
I have been watching NCSoft on Reuters and noticed something. Yesterday their stock dipped to 125,000 and then hovered around 126 for a while. Today, the same page, found here (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS), says that their 52 week low is 126. However, they still show that the company dipped to 125 yesterday. Is that just a mistake on the website or am I misunderstanding something?
Edit: It must have been a glitch. It seems as though they fixed it.
They might be adjusting for currency exchange. aka the worth it was in dollars 52 weeks ago compared to today.
(A mere stab in the foggy darkness while blindfolded with a cow hide.)
Well, whatever it was, the last 3 times I checked, the 52 week low was 127k won, then 126k won, then back to 127. I'm sure it's just something glitchy with the Reuters site.prbably just a glitch. Isnt the first time and probably wont be the last time.
Edit: Which is odd because it was 125 yesterday, and at the same time it said the 52 week low was 125. Maybe NCSofts sled ride is causing bugs in the software... >_<
Well, whatever it was, the last 3 times I checked, the 52 week low was 127k won, then 126k won, then back to 127. I'm sure it's just something glitchy with the Reuters site.
Edit: Which is odd because it was 125 yesterday, and at the same time it said the 52 week low was 125. Maybe NCSofts sled ride is causing bugs in the software... >_<
If you play AION in Korea, all servers are dead, end-levels are empty, nothing going on, you can't even play certain tasks, ,as there are not enough players for it.Isn't Aion like the number 3 or 4 game in Korea? This doesn't add up.
I am a former employee of NCsoft.So, it's as I feared/suspected - they're really just stupid. No nefarious master plan, they're just idiots with no idea how to run a MMO-producing company.
[snip]
So, it's as I feared/suspected - they're really just stupid. No nefarious master plan, they're just idiots with no idea how to run a MMO-producing company.
They've been updating the game and I believe patch 4.0 is coming shortly (or maybe it's already out) with hopes it will reinvigorate the game.
I'm not quite clear. Do you believe Aion is perfectly healthy right now?
Because I can remember another game NCsoft used to offer that was being updated regularly, with a "reinvigorating" patch nearly ready for release. That game also appeared to be perfectly healthy, right up to the day it was scheduled to be shut down. Edit: A savvy analyst would most likely notice behavior like that when they see it beginning to repeat.
The definition of a "perfectly healthy" product may have to be re-examined when the company offering it are themselves the toxic presence.
The trouble is they can't cut everything. It appears that NCSoft is playing a shell game. They are hiding the poor health of their games and the dubious releases of new projects by cloak and dagger means.
Please clarify. What is this "nosedive" CoH is/was in?
Aion is definitely on a nosedive, just like CoH.
???
Watchya talkin about Willis? What shell game? What cloak and dagger means.
Please clarify. What is this "nosedive" CoH is/was in?
Lol, that is a seriously morbid joke.
Just a curiousity, would it save NCSoft to go the way of Dell computers, and buy off 100% of their public stock from their shareholders and go 100% private?Not if they're run by morons, no.
Cloak and dagger means they are flashing demo's of Wildstar and slapping a random release date on it - knowing the game won't make that date just to try and bloster slipping stock prices. The company isn't going bust........yet, but they are bleeding investors like crazy and so they are shuffling deck chairs around on the Titanic while the band plays to try and distract from cannibalizing from one game to try and build another.
When overall subs don't increase it just moves from one game to another instead of increasing total sales - you are dying. In sales if you are growing you are dying.
Sales dropped 57% over the last three years. You may not think that's a nosedive but it's losing altitude at an alarming rate.No that's not good. I guess we differ on how to use various aviation euphemisms. I would tend to call something bad by a different name than something else approximately 3 times worse, but that's just me.
Just a curiousity, would it save NCSoft to go the way of Dell computers, and buy off 100% of their public stock from their shareholders and go 100% private?
No that's not good. I guess we differ on how to use various aviation euphemisms. I would tend to call something bad by a different name than something else approximately 3 times worse, but that's just me.
I am curious though, how many times bigger were Aion's sales at their peak than CoH's at its peak.
I ask that, because without that information the 8-9X comparison of recent sales lacks context.
So, CoX has been outselling Guild Wars since late 2008 and it's still around? Guild Wars, that is.
Am I seeing that right? CoX only made 180k for it's entire run?
Sorry, didn't label the Y, that's million USD. And I converted each quarter from KrW to USD using the average exchange rate for that quarter.
So, 180,000,000?
About 6x, 89,846 vs 15,706 million KrW.
Here have a chart.No thanks. Just the numbers if you please.
Yes, but ArenaNet was working on GW2. Why shut down GW1 since at the very least it's advertising for GW2 and you don't tick off potential customers for it's sequel. Plus GW1 still outsold CoH over it's lifespan, they had the cash to do the development work.
Chart of cumulative sales over lifetime, CoH (blue) Vs GW1 (orange/red).
(https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a213/FatherXmas/Charts/CoH-GWSum.jpg)
Thanks.
How do sales compare to expenses for these two?
No thanks. Just the numbers if you please.
...and from that I suspect people infer the existence of a shell-game.
Why?I would suggest probably because of the inconsistent statements about various topics including the profitability of one enterprise versus another and what precisely were the reasons for shutting down the one most posters to this forum give a tinker's damn about.
I would suggest probably because of the inconsistent statements about various topics including the profitability of one enterprise versus another and what precisely were the reasons for shutting down the one most posters to this forum give a tinker's damn about.
A rational person suspects a liar of lying.
The statements weren't inconsistent in my eye. They simply were hesitant to say the reason until most of the former employees of the Paragon were resituated. And NCsoft did reorganize their western subsidiaries. They reduced staff at NC Interactive after the game's closure as well as discontinue several small, old casual games in Korea. They are focusing on big name (read sales) MMOs, mobile gaming and expansion of new MMOs into untapped markets.
In their eyes Paragon had nothing new to offer and CoH simply wasn't large enough and didn't have the potential to be expanded into Asia to keep even a pared down Paragon. At least that is what they were implying.
Yes, but ArenaNet was working on GW2. Why shut down GW1 since at the very least it's advertising for GW2 and you don't tick off potential customers for it's sequel.
Yes, but Paragon Studios could have been working on CoH2 if NCsoft had given it the green light. Incidentally, it could have been more successful if NCsoft had thrown just a modicum of marketing dollars at it. Why have one successful game when you could have had two? Why shut down either game and piss off a community, a move that would undoubtedly have ramifications on your other business?
Supposedly they WERE working on another game, but now, we'll never know what it was.
Honestly if it wasn't CoH2 (and they said it wasn't) I wouldn't have been interested in all likelyhood, but who knows.
Stock price is creeping back up after those fluff news releases yesterday about their Q4 successes.
Yes, but Paragon Studios could have been working on CoH2 if NCsoft had given it the green light. Incidentally, it could have been more successful if NCsoft had thrown just a modicum of marketing dollars at it. Why have one successful game when you could have had two? Why shut down either game and piss off a community, a move that would undoubtedly have ramifications on your other business? Again, City of Heroes was not losing money. I'm not saying that it was a bad decision not to shut down Guild Wars or develop Guild Wars 2. I am saying, however, that it was a bad decision to not develop City of Heroes 2, and it was a completely numskull decision to shut down City of Heroes and kill off Paragon Studios. And then to follow that with not allowing the management of Paragon Studios to at least buy the IP so that you could milk a few dollars off of the husk of what you're throwing away is truly a move that only a frontal lobotomy could produce.
I'm not talking about the "Secret Project". What I'm referring to is that Paragon Studios pitched CoH 2 multiple times to NCsoft, and they were turned down. Meanwhile, NCsoft gave them practically nothing in the way of marketing dollars. If NCsoft didn't like CoH's sales numbers, it's their own damn fault. There's no reason CoH couldn't have been just as or even more popular than Guild Wars, especially given the popularity of superheroes in the media these days. And I would strongly disagree with any assertion that CoH was any less deserving of a sequel than Guild Wars.I remember when Heroes was big on TV and people started begging NCSoft to just advertise City of Heroes. Anyone remember what happened?
I'm not talking about the "Secret Project". What I'm referring to is that Paragon Studios pitched CoH 2 multiple times to NCsoft, and they were turned down. Meanwhile, NCsoft gave them practically nothing in the way of marketing dollars. If NCsoft didn't like CoH's sales numbers, it's their own damn fault. There's no reason CoH couldn't have been just as or even more popular than Guild Wars, especially given the popularity of superheroes in the media these days. And I would strongly disagree with any assertion that CoH was any less deserving of a sequel than Guild Wars.
Guild Wars, are you kiddin'? I've always said CoH would've been bigger than World of Freaking Warcraft if it had been promoted properly.
"The Avengers" is the 3rd highest-grossing movie of all time. Most of the other recent superhero movies have been huge smashes as well. Now imagine if all those filmgoers had known there was a game that let them do all that same stuff, but with their own characters...
Good job, NCsoft. Geniuses.
I remember when Heroes was big on TV and people started begging NCSoft to just advertise City of Heroes. Anyone remember what happened?
Ex_Libris started a thread about how she had started a new MySpace page for City of Heroes. Then both her and Lighthouse took offense when people told her that she was wasting her time with a social media site that had already died.
Hitstreak said that when the servers went down that all of City's social sites (Twitter, etc.) would be taken down too. It looks like they forgot the Myspace page. (http://www.myspace.com/official_cityofheroes) Kinda like everyone else forgot that it existed.
As another example of how NCsoft has no clue how and/or no desire to promote itself in the West on a corporate level, I just noticed that the press release section of the English version (http://global.ncsoft.com/global/board/boardlist.aspx?BID=mc_press) of their corporate site was last updated over three years ago for Aion's open beta, while the Korean version (http://kr.ncsoft.com/korean/board/boardlist.aspx?BID=mc_press) averages at least three items per week. :roll:
I remember when Heroes was big on TV and people started begging NCSoft to just advertise City of Heroes. Anyone remember what happened?
Ex_Libris started a thread about how she had started a new MySpace page for City of Heroes. Then both her and Lighthouse took offense when people told her that she was wasting her time with a social media site that had already died.
Hitstreak said that when the servers went down that all of City's social sites (Twitter, etc.) would be taken down too. It looks like they forgot the Myspace page. (http://www.myspace.com/official_cityofheroes) Kinda like everyone else forgot that it existed.
NCSoft would advertise premium sushi as "cold raw fish on rice mixed with vinegar".
Magic 8-Ball Says:
Big Drop This Week
Cause:
During a weekend of partying with business friends and investors, drunken NCSoft execs let slip that they really have no clue what they're doing.
it's League of Legends by a nearly 3:1 margin.
Now our PvP at the time, late 2005/early 2006, pre IO, had very asymmetrical one on one. Tank Vs Scrapper tended to be a draw. Someone who could move quicker than their opponent tended to have an upper hand. Blaster Vs Melee was a match in avoiding. Balance was better on teams of course but even then gameplay and powers were very different between PvE and PvP.
Plus there was rooting.
i dont think we will really see them hurting until the next quarters numbers are out and showing that gw2 has dropped off a cliff due to only relying on in game purchases
The information in this report is not correct.
It is true that Kongzhong is our Chinese publisher and that we are working with them to release Guild Wars 2 into the Chinese market. But like with the release in North America and Europe, we will do extensive beta testing, and the feedback of those tests will determine the time when we will release the game in China.
It is also true that we have said in the past that we will do an expansion at one point. But currently we are fully committed to expand the world of Guild Wars 2 through our Living Story (you can read more about it in this blog post by narrative designer Angel McCoy)
Except that's been forecast already. The current analyst consensus for the 1st quarter is around 185 for sales (range 153-211). 4th quarter 2012 was 283 (thousand million KrW). Consensus profit for the 1st quarter is about 45 (range 21-74). Book value is around 61,000 per share. That puts Price to Book at 2.2. Prior to the stock rise due to the success of Aion, the book value was 2.1 at the end of 2008. At the end of 2010, off from it's first peak it was 4.3. At the end of 2011, off from it's all time high, it was 5.9.
It's when a stock misses the consensus or when analysts change their guesstimates downwards or downgrade their buy/sell recommendation is when you get big selloffs.
As I've been saying, the super high stock price in 2010-2011 simply weren't supported by the companies fundamentals, it was predicated, somewhat like Apple, that NCsoft's next titles would significantly grow sales much like Aion did. Except unlike Apple where new product announcements are like clockwork and that we could expect a "revolutionary" new product every few years, the over hype finally ran dry 3/4 the way though 2011 and much like an avalanche the stock price collapsed. Of course it rallied a few times as investors decided it was cheap enough followed by another selloff from investors who missed the first one and then the second. However when finally B&S came out, after hyping it since Aion, and it didn't bring in "new" sales like Aion did. Finally reality set in and analysts are actually looking at the actual numbers than trying to correlate unique page views on MMO sites to determine projected sales of B&S, using Aion as a baseline.
Okay, I'm sure other people know but I don't and am SUPER curious. I've been reading a lot of your posts in this thread and others... How the hell do you know so damn much about NCSoft, their stocks, and their financial situation? No, this is not at all sarcastic. You seem to know as much about them as they do, dare I say, enough that you seem to be an expert on it. I'm guessing you are.
Someone posted on the GW2 forum the reported news that GW2 would be going to China this year and that there will be a paid expansion for NA/EU out the 2nd half of 2013. This is the reply posted by ArenaNet's Head of Global Community, Martin Kerstein.
Sounds like another case of wishful thinking on whoever was the mouthpiece for NCsoft on the Investors Conference Call.
So what you're saying is that ArenNet is on the chopping block.
I watch a lot of CNBC (or I slept in a Holliday Inn Express, one or the other). :P I was also a credit shy for a minor in economics back in college (they didn't count the practical Engineering Economics course I took senior year :().
Ratios are easy to compute and you just need to rummage through NCsoft's quarterly reports, which you can get off of NCsoft's website, for half of the raw data while getting the stock price for the period in question is available from Yahoo/Google finance pages. Relatively recently I was pointed to one of NCsoft's analysts sites who post their analysis for free and it can be a funny read. Every so often they would try to anticipate the impact of a new MMO by some of the most created methods of inference to other MMOs that had been released that I could imagine.
Once you calculate some of these ratios you take a look at other companies in their industry and known successful companies and see where they are relative to each other. I've been looking at Nexon, Activision/Blizzard, and EA as comparison companies.
Also over time I've been finding more and more Korean gaming sites to try to glean insights on how NCsoft's games are doing there. Gametrics is interesting because from what I can tell it looks only at the PC cafe numbers and while a lot of the data is gated for a fee, enough is available to get an idea of what's being played and in what numbers. Since I was one of the hardware recommendation guys on the old forums what I found interesting was something like the Steam survey of hardware that's found in PC cafes. And since video games are a big business in Korea, actually a surprisingly sizable exporter, Korean business sites like Money Today actually break out the gaming company news on a separate tab. Sure reading Google translated articles will toast your mind due to the translation gibberish it ofter produces but you can find headlines about NCsoft that isn't on NCsoft's own website. Also THISISGAME, both the beta global version and the native Korean version also have articles on NCsoft that aren't found in Massively or other western MMO sites.
Lastly it just annoys me that the majority of people don't actually understand what the price of stock actually means to a company and how often it isn't related to the relative financial strength or weakness of that company.
Also way back when the closing was first announced, I loaded up a spreadsheet with all the data I was able to pull from all the quarterly reports from NCsoft and updated it as the 3rd and 4th quarter numbers came out. For CoH and GW I also bothered to pull the currency exchange rates for every quarter since CoH and GW were developed here in the USA so I could relay their numbers in $ and not thousands of KrW. It's why I can throw together a quick chart of all the games NCsoft breaks out in their quarterly reports.
So what you're saying is that ArenNet is on the chopping block.
Ohhhh I get it....your a witch!
If you were concerned about being shut down, why aggravate the situation by publicly disagreeing with your "bosses". Especially if it might affect the stock price.A duck prepared for dinner doesn't weigh the same as a duck roaming free on a pond either.
But I don't weigh the same as a duck?
A duck prepared for dinner doesn't weigh the same as a duck roaming free on a pond either.
Just sayin' :P
Someone on this board uses the screenname "Roderick." He hasn't posted much, but I've had to fight the urge to post this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX0XDHF3M60) when I does. I dont' want to come off as mocking him, but I have to go watch it every time. :)
Also... I think you have a video to go watch.
... what's with all the funny looks?
If they get away from NCsoft the first thing I'll do is buy a pile of gems to spend on stuff, probably transmutation stones.
nice one tony lol
i still think that if arenanet wanted to go indie that ncsoft would be in some pretty hot water, their NA share of games will be effectively dead
To be honest, though, it is apparent that NCSoft could care less about NA and EU.
To be honest, though, it is apparent that NCSoft could care less about NA and EU.
But isn't the GW series crazy mad popular in Asia as well? I seem to remember tons of Koreans overtaking the original GWs' PvP arenas back when I played it at launch. Now there would be your difference in the "caring" department for NC. I would think they'd do anything within their power to keep ArenaNet and the GW franchise.
it is reported that they are revamping the missions in B&S to make the game more suited to NA and EU than a simple language translation. Don't know if this means less grindy, less team dependent, less PvP targeted, don't know I guess we'll see.
I would pay ArenaNet $1,000 to go indie by starting the letter notifying NCsoft with the following sentence: "ArenaNet is incredibly proud of NCsoft, but unfortunately, the continued support of NCsoft no longer fits within our long term goals for the company."
(funny the source (http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/response-to-city-of-heroes-player-and-fan-suggestions.php) has been taken down from the official ncsoft website)
Fixed the link for ya.Thanks ! What was the typo, if I may ask ? I took this link from quarter a dozen Video Games websites.
(funny the source (http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/response-to-city-of-heroes-player-and-fan-suggestions.html) has been taken down from the official ncsoft website)The link is dead because they changed up how the news page is done. Current link (http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/response-to-city-of-heroes-player-and-fan-suggestions.php).
I know it was sold in Brazil cause I knew a guy who played from there. But I'd imagine it was advertised even less there than in America.Isn't Leandro (His CoH Forum name) from South America?
Isn't Leandro (His CoH Forum name) from South America?
Isn't Leandro (His CoH Forum name) from South America?
I know it was sold in Brazil cause I knew a guy who played from there. But I'd imagine it was advertised even less there than in America.
His last name, Pardini, sounds Italian if you ask me.He might be an Italian living in Argentina.
There's no reason CoH couldn't have taken a bigger chunk out of WoW's playerbase, that game has nothing going for it except addictive gameplay(for some).
I liked learning raid fights, but not farming the gear from fights we already did so we could take on the new ones.
If they get free, I'll have to send NCsoft a sympathy letter.
"Sorry you lost your game."
Oh, I wasn't dismissing the possibility that he was in South America, was just saying his name sounds Italian. Wondered if that's his origin. I had never heard anything in regards to his location myself.Ah, a related but tangential thought that popped into your head. I see. :)
I maintain that NCSoft thoroughly failed City of Heroes as a publisher and I believe the game still had a lot of untapped market potential. For a game that was nearly a decade old, whose general enjoyment factor completely dwarfs anything else in my game library(it's not a small library), the general public's knowledge of City of Heroes existence is obscure at the very best. FatherXmas has already said I wasn't going to get my CoH tv spots but I can't be convinced that it was outside of NCSoft's budget to have a short commercial made for every Issue and I firmly believe they would have had a return on such an investment.I agree. NCSoft missed 99.99999999999999999% of all advertizing opportunities for CoH.
You know, if they had any clue what they were doing, that is.
It may have been outside of Paragon Studios budget but we now know that, next to their sibling subsidiaries, they received the bare bones minimum of support.
There's no reason CoH couldn't have taken a bigger chunk out of WoW's playerbase, that game has nothing going for it except addictive gameplay(for some). I tried World of Warcraft twice. Once back in 2006, before I was set in my CoH ways, I rolled a character and played for all of 7 minutes until I was struck with the most overwhelming sensation to go play outside because life is too short. Fortunately it went away once I logged in to City of Heroes and I assured my family that an ambulance was unnecessary. I tried it again this past December. While searching for something to take my mind off of how much I miss someone, I came across the copy of WoW I received as a gift and realised I had never actually used the free month that came with it, I recalled that I tried the game using a friend's account. I once again put myself through that laughable excuse for a character creator and upon popping out the other side in the middle of a crowd of 9 other players that looked almost exactly like me, I logged out and uninstalled the game immediately with no regrets. I'm certain I'm not the only person that experienced something along these lines and yet the name World of Warcraft is recognized today by even the most game illiterate person. CoH; not so much.
There's another franchise CoH could easily have taken a bite out of and not just any franchise, the one that can boast having the best selling pc game of all time; The Sims. Between CoH's character creator and base builder, there's no reason CoH shouldn't have enjoyed a fair amount of crossover from that playerbase, especially after The Sims Online was shutdown.
The thing about City of Heroes is, even though it, at first glance, appears to be a niche game that mainly caters to superhero enthusiasts and MMO players, its accessibility goes FAR beyond most any game out there. I cannot count the number of times I encountered an instance of "My wife/girlfriend/sister/daughter/etc. saw me playing it, tried it and got hooked." It's kind of natural for boys to be attracted to a game of CoH's content but a game with this much potential to make gamers out of girls who never had an interest in video games deserves more credit than it has received. That was the story of the person I miss most in the world. She had no interest in video games until she saw her brother playing City of Heroes. He and I didn't see eye to eye on a number of things but I'll always be eternally grateful to him for having purchased his copy of City of Heroes(sigh, I'm going off on a tangent). Okay, the PvP needed work but the bottom line is CoH has pretty much everything one could want in a game.
According to Wikipedia:
"As with book publishers or publishers of DVD movies, video game publishers are responsible for their product's manufacturing and marketing, including market research and all aspects of advertising."
I believe the number of missed opportunities for NCSoft to have promoted City of Heroes are countless.
I don't believe for even one second that CoH's shutdown was a result of current sales numbers but if at any point NCSoft was dissatisfied with CoH's performance; it can only be attributed to NCSoft's own ineptitude.
Arenanet seems to have recognized NCSoft's inability to find its own ass and outsourced the task of promoting that game that doesn't deserve my hatred but has it anyway(I recognize that my ire towards Anet is unfair and I'm somewhat ashamed of the hatred I possess in their regard but the fact of the matter is that, for the loss of the life that is no longer open to me and their involvement in that, I simply can never forgive Guild Wars 2 for existing).
I believe now more than ever that the people running NCSoft have absolutely no idea how to manage a company and any success that has come their way has been nothing more than the result of luck and fortunate circumstances.
Oh, I wasn't dismissing the possibility that he was in South America, was just saying his name sounds Italian. Wondered if that's his origin. I had never heard anything in regards to his location myself.
Okay, who hit the derailleur lever?
Well the stock is up for the last few days. Right now it's up 12% from it's 52 week interday low, over 9% from it's 52 week end of day low.
It's not surprising the "cheerleaders" aren't rah-rahing it up.
Honestly? I think this is the unofficial "off the rails" thread. See, if they allow derails more than usual here, it helps prevent them everywhere else. I mean sure, it still happens a bit... but just imagine if this thread wasn't anchoring down the rest of the forums. It'd be chaos. Total anarchy! Cats and dogs living together! Game over, man!Nice mix of movie quotes. :)
It's not surprising the "cheerleaders" aren't rah-rahing it up.
Why would they?
Spirits already seem pretty low around here lately, why bring it down further by pointing out how well NCSoft is doing this week?
Even if the numbers or our actions have little effect on their bottom line it makes people feel better to see things not going perfectly for NCSoft. Such things keep people motivated. The last thing we want to happen here is for people to start thinking "why bother".
The last thing we want to happen here is for people to start thinking "why bother"
Spirits already seem pretty low around here lately, why bring it down further by pointing out how well NCSoft is doing this week?
Well the stock is up for the last few days. Right now it's up 12% from it's 52 week interday low, over 9% from it's 52 week end of day low.
It's not surprising the "cheerleaders" aren't rah-rahing it up.
Google actually ASKING for our pitch - we didn't have to hunt them down and beg!
.......
They actually ASKED straight up for it? For real? :O
In the words of Waddle the Penguin, "Happy Waddle!"
Google actually ASKING for our pitch - we didn't have to hunt them down and beg!
.......
They actually ASKED straight up for it? For real? :O
In the words of Waddle the Penguin, "Happy Waddle!"
Google actually ASKING for our pitch - we didn't have to hunt them down and beg!
.......
They actually ASKED straight up for it? For real? :O
In the words of Waddle the Penguin, "Happy Waddle!"
When I went to my contact at Google, he initially looked for venture capitalists and contacts at other companies that might want to pick CoH up, not within Google play.
Those didn't pan out, I asked him, "Is it worth talking to Google Play?"
He went to his guy at Google Play, who said, "sure send my direct contact info and send me the pitch."
First time someone has asked for a pitch on initial contact.
I for one am quite willing to put down money and pre-order any true successor to CoH Google would like to produce.
Who's with me?
I for one am quite willing to put down money and pre-order any true successor to CoH Google would like to produce.
Who's with me?
Interesting idea. I wonder if they would be more inclined to purchase it if enough people said they would put down money upfront.
Collection data on our community would be incredibly valuable. If we could get a poll up and ask people if they would play CoH again, if they'd subscribe again, etc etc. Some raw numbers about what a new CoH launch would bring in could be very helpful.
Except internet polls are pretty meaningless, especially when it comes to words vs action.
But with practically every major gaming platform shifting towards online games, we believe developers of high-end, hardcore online games (which are rare these days) will gain value over the long term.
Collection data on our community would be incredibly valuable. If we could get a poll up and ask people if they would play CoH again, if they'd subscribe again, etc etc. Some raw numbers about what a new CoH launch would bring in could be very helpful.
And unfortunately, I think it would be stretching the limits of what Kickstarter would allow to set up a Kickstarter program that was set up to essentially take commitments to pre-order a CoH successor from Google if they acquired the IP and put out a new game.Kickstarter wouldn't take it. There needs to be some groundwork already done on the product in order to begin a Kickstarter campaign at all.
And unfortunately, I think it would be stretching the limits of what Kickstarter would allow to set up a Kickstarter program that was set up to essentially take commitments to pre-order a CoH successor from Google if they acquired the IP and put out a new game.
speaking of which, if available, again if available, once more IF available, is there any word or concrete sense of which direction Google is leaning towards with the IP thing or if they even contacted NCSoft yet?
I JUST FINISHED THE BOOK.
I'll be working on the revamped proposal starting today. I figure to have it done in about a week. We obviously did not approach Google without a proposal.
Same here. VV you earned your cape ten times over. Take a moment and saver the fact you have fans that care more about you then what you can do for us.
We obviously did not approach Google without a proposal.Good. Very good.
Same here. VV you earned your cape ten times over. Take a moment and saver the fact you have fans that care more about you then what you can do for us.I am in full support of the Save Mercedes Lackey campaign in addition to the SaveCoH campaign. :)
I am in full support of the Save Mercedes Lackey campaign in addition to the SaveCoH campaign. :)
Lady, take a short break. Indulge in chocolate, wine, a really good massage, something
I am in full support of the Save Mercedes Lackey campaign in addition to the SaveCoH campaign. :)
It was about 60,000 words in three weeks.I know a Duct Tape Specialist that could attach another one on for you. He even has a Duct Tape Specialist shirt that I got him last year for his B-day to prove it. :P
I have no nose. The grindstone took it all off.
The best chocolate wine I have EVER had is called Desiree. You can get it at BevMo for about $30/bottle, IIRC - you drink it from those little snifter-size glasses about the size of a Cadbury egg.So it does exist.
And it is soooooooo good.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
It was about 60,000 words in three weeks.
I have no nose. The grindstone took it all off.
I JUST FINISHED THE BOOK.
So it does exist.
*imagines red wine mixed with dark chocolate, and throws up*
*begins to imagine something more creamy and liquorous, and wants to taste it"
Hot cocoa with rum. Not that cheapo "just add water" stuff, home made goodness with milk and ganache (a touch of cayenne and cinnamon for a nice tingle)I'll let you have my share, since I don't really care for the taste of alcohol.
Its a shame the weather is warming up here, cocoa doesn't feel as good in warm weather.
Not trying to be a downer here...but can we rename this thread as "the thread that used to be the NCSoft Stockwatch thread but has gone so far off track that we haven't talked about the stock for pages...."Hmm, then again it wasnt so much as stockwatch to begin with but seemed to be more about the sliding of NCSoft stock. It seems as soon as it stopped sliding, the convo was over.
Sunday's closing at 145,500 KRW, a gain of 2,500 KRW...
Blah blah blah financial analysis...
Our efforts never had and never will have an impact...
Schadenfreude is for idiots, quit enjoying things.
QuoteSunday's closing at 145,500 KRW, a gain of 2,500 KRW...
Blah blah blah financial analysis...
Our efforts never had and never will have an impact...
Schadenfreude is for idiots, quit enjoying things.
Is it any wonder the topic derails now and then?
The best chocolate wine I have EVER had is called Desiree. You can get it at BevMo for about $30/bottle, IIRC - you drink it from those little snifter-size glasses about the size of a Cadbury egg.
Pssst... Mercedes.....we aren't actually super-heroes. For the love of god, take a break.
Does make NCSoft out to look like liars though.NCsoft shouldn't be saying things that ArenaNet aren't telling them. Simple as that.
NCsoft shouldn't be saying things that ArenaNet aren't telling them. Simple as that.
I have never been one of those "This is WAR, NCSoft!" guys, nor have I ever wished ill on any of the studios, but this did give me a warm fuzzy.Are you sure it wasn't the rum-fortified cocoa that was giving you the warm fuzzy? :P
(Full disclosure: I'm in one of the areas hit by today's snow storm in the Midwestern US, and I've had to shovel driveways and sidewalks at my house, my mother's house, my father's house, and my grandparents' house, though my uncle got to the last one a little bit before I did. I've been "staving off the cold" with rum-fortified cocoa for about an hour, now...)
Up it went again...5,000 up >:(
NCsoft shouldn't be saying things that ArenaNet aren't telling them. Simple as that.
Trying to figure out who mentioned politicsThe posts have been removed.
The posts have been removed.
Looks like there were more layoffs in the Seattle office today, including a CoH alum (Beastyle).Darn it, i liked Beastyle.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/28/ncsoft-west-confirms-layoffs/ (http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/28/ncsoft-west-confirms-layoffs/)
Looks like there were more layoffs in the Seattle office today, including a CoH alum (Beastyle).Anyone notice the "realignment of company focus" mantra in this one? :roll:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/28/ncsoft-west-confirms-layoffs/
Anyone notice the "realignment of company focus" mantra in this one? :roll:
Looks like there were more layoffs in the Seattle office today, including a CoH alum (Beastyle).
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/28/ncsoft-west-confirms-layoffs/
"In an effort to put a greater focus on the success of the Western-developed games from NCSOFT..."
*taps fingers*
Translation: Don't get too invested in Aion, Lineage 2, or a Blade & Soul import.
If I ever go back to Aion, it will be to act as a complete freeloader, buying nothing from the in-game store, playing just to take up space on the servers. But even unbending toward NCSoft that much is going to take a lot more time for the feelings of betrayal to fade.That still helps NCsoft. You become someone that paying players will play with, enticing them to stay and further line NCsoft's wallet. Even if you solo, your presence still contributes positively to the game at least in terms of appearance, if not in actually value that you contribute to the gameworld (generating currency/equipment/etc.)
Anyone notice the "realignment of company focus" mantra in this one? :roll:
That still helps NCsoft. You become someone that paying players will play with, enticing them to stay and further line NCsoft's wallet. Even if you solo, your presence still contributes positively to the game at least in terms of appearance, if not in actually value that you contribute to the gameworld (generating currency/equipment/etc.)
Meanwhilem Guild Wars 2 has become a license to print money.
They killed their one good money maker aka coh and now they're getting what they sowed back.I say this as a City fangirl and with the full force of my love of City backing it: LOL WUT. You're crazy. City was not their one good money maker. City was barely a blip on the radar.
I say this as a City fangirl and with the full force of my love of City backing it: LOL WUT. You're crazy. City was not their one good money maker. City was barely a blip on the radar.
If I recall correctly, City was making only 2% of their total Revenue...Hardly anything, considering the amount of games they have out there. It may have been one of their main money makers here in the States...at least until GW2 came along. That game probably blew City out of the water, unfortunately, rather fast, considering how fast people took to it. I could hardly be called an expert on this stuff though, so its all speculation on my part (being a business major student) based on what I've heard/seen.
That's about the sum of it - North America amounted for a whopping 4% of NCsoft's total earnings {with Korea alone making up for over 70%}. It's quite possible that, with GW2 coming up a success, they figured they could painlessly get rid of the smaller earner and simply transfer the City of Heroes customers to another NCsoft game.
If that's the case, it backfired just a little bit.
Note: Unlike the devs in CoH, ArenaNet is a flashback to Jack's days where they hold the actual percentage chances and drop table weights to themselves. One dev recently posted "we don't want to show you how the sausage is made". Lack of transparency has also brought out a number of the tin foil hat crowd.
That's about the sum of it - North America amounted for a whopping 4% of NCsoft's total earnings {with Korea alone making up for over 70%}. It's quite possible that, with GW2 coming up a success, they figured they could painlessly get rid of the smaller earner and simply transfer the City of Heroes customers to another NCsoft game.
If that's the case, it backfired just a little bit.
Then like back on our boards when SP came out, a debate ignited about if this is considered gambling and whether it's legal, since you are paying for a "roll of the dice" hoping to "win" the prize you want. Before this they spent the whole month putting different items up for sale every day, 20% off. I believe it was moderately successful, at the very least they should be able to tell the kind of products players are interested in.
Score one for the underdog, eh? :)
Closing Aion so soon after CoH could have a major impact on player confidence in any of their titles.
Closing Aion so soon after CoH could have a major impact on player confidence in any of their titles.
Then, tin foil hatting for a moment, how long (theoretically) would it take for the closure of Aion not to be perceived as such? Feels a worthwhile question to consider.
I'd rather have had CoH see the success it deserved than underdog vindication.
Closing Aion so soon after CoH could have a major impact on player confidence in any of their titles.
Are they closing Aion? Am I missing something?No announcement of such. The numbers are dropping, though.
Always fascinated me, that loophole. One of those things that had a hand in killing video arcades too, really. Those games that dispense tickets when you win, which you can then use to get toys that are even cheaper than the ones at the Dollar Store.
Apparently it's only gambling in the eyes of government if you can win money.
Are they closing Aion? Am I missing something?
No announcement of such. The numbers are dropping, though.
What are those percentages there?
They chose poorly
Who wants to start a pool on when the shutters go up for Aion?Aion is still, comparatively, raking in the dough. Just not as much as it used to.
Aion is still, comparatively, raking in the dough. Just not as much as it used to.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg7%2F4703%2Fmodhat2.jpg)
Remember to keep politics and race out of this.
Same could have been said about COHCoH never raked in the dough, let's be honest. Aion was a beastly huge MMO - it's still rather more successful than most MMOs.
Aion is still, comparatively, raking in the dough. Just not as much as it used to.
Realistically speaking, if I were looking at NCSoft from the perspective of an investor, I would see a company that is past its prime, and is going down, fast or slow, no way to tell. They have shuttered games without having replacements for them; shuttering at least two shortly after hatching. They managed to create a wave of negative press that persists months later far out of proportion to the shuttering of both Tabula Rasa and CoX. As my father in law used to say of the Army, "It only takes one 'oh pancake' to wipe out all of your 'attaboys'" and they've had a page full of "oh shits," from the initial way they handled the shutdown, to the way they treated the players, many of whom still have not gotten their refunds, to the final dull thud of the last day. In fact, at this point, they have a huge deficit of "attaboys" and they keep pulling "oh shits." There is the delay in getting their game into China; there is the delay in finishing Wildstar which is looking a lot more like a comedy clone of Borderlands than an MMORPG. There are customer complaints galore in GW2; NCSoft announced an expansion of GW2 which was promptly denied by AreaNet which is another huge "oh pancake." And NCSoft has literally nothing cooking for after Wildstar launches.You gave me a new definition of "assassin words". Thank you.
This is a company in trouble. It has a fat cushion to carry them for a while, but it won't carry them forever. It has a HUGE customer problem it refuses to acknowledge. It has an even bigger market perception problem it refuses to acknowledge. In fact, it managed to trigger a market-wide tremor that has got the customers of other games taking a hard look at their games and companies and asking themselves how much longer--or even IF--they want to keep themselves invested in those games. Only time will tell if gamer-goldfish-brains reset themselves and they go back to business-as-usual--or if gamers are going to start to seriously question the entire marketplace and start making demands. If the latter, well, OTHER companies will know where to place the blame. And so will the customers. We already know the kind of arrogance NCSoft uses to respond to customer revolt. That arrogance to demand might well be the dagger in the heart of the company, which will be hoovered up and absorbed into Nexon.
Sadly, Taek Jin Kim will sit back under his golden parachute and watch his baseball team.
Realistically speaking, if I were looking at NCSoft from the perspective of an investor, I would see a company that is past its prime, and is going down, fast or slow, no way to tell. They have shuttered games without having replacements for them; shuttering at least two shortly after hatching. They managed to create a wave of negative press that persists months later far out of proportion to the shuttering of both Tabula Rasa and CoX. As my father in law used to say of the Army, "It only takes one 'oh pancake' to wipe out all of your 'attaboys'" and they've had a page full of "oh shits," from the initial way they handled the shutdown, to the way they treated the players, many of whom still have not gotten their refunds, to the final dull thud of the last day. In fact, at this point, they have a huge deficit of "attaboys" and they keep pulling "oh shits." There is the delay in getting their game into China; there is the delay in finishing Wildstar which is looking a lot more like a comedy clone of Borderlands than an MMORPG. There are customer complaints galore in GW2; NCSoft announced an expansion of GW2 which was promptly denied by AreaNet which is another huge "oh pancake." And NCSoft has literally nothing cooking for after Wildstar launches.
This is a company in trouble. It has a fat cushion to carry them for a while, but it won't carry them forever. It has a HUGE customer problem it refuses to acknowledge. It has an even bigger market perception problem it refuses to acknowledge. In fact, it managed to trigger a market-wide tremor that has got the customers of other games taking a hard look at their games and companies and asking themselves how much longer--or even IF--they want to keep themselves invested in those games. Only time will tell if gamer-goldfish-brains reset themselves and they go back to business-as-usual--or if gamers are going to start to seriously question the entire marketplace and start making demands. If the latter, well, OTHER companies will know where to place the blame. And so will the customers. We already know the kind of arrogance NCSoft uses to respond to customer revolt. That arrogance to demand might well be the dagger in the heart of the company, which will be hoovered up and absorbed into Nexon.
Sadly, Taek Jin Kim will sit back under his golden parachute and watch his baseball team.
One day I'll have a golden parachute too. :p
That's how they roll.
It does not matter how muuch money Aion rakes in: if NCS wants to shut the game, boomshakalaka! Its going down.On the contrary, money matters more than anything. They are a business.
Money does not matter. .....
On the contrary, money matters more than anything. They are a business.Yup.
they may rid of it like a few people I know get rid of spare change.If only NCsoft practiced "take a penny, leave a penny".
If only NCsoft practiced "take a penny, leave a penny".If only...
It does not matter how muuch money Aion rakes in: if NCS wants to shut the game, boomshakalaka! Its going down.
Money does not matter. Customers dont matter, public perception matters not. Whether or not this makes sense to the average person does not matter. If they want to "realign more focus," then by gum they are gonna do it and devil take the hindenmost.
That's how they roll.
I feel a little sorry for NCSOFT. They are like some first time author who writes a critically acclaimed and wildly popular novel and then the pressure is on them to do it again, and again, and again.
Before CoH was ever released, way back when NCSOFT first came out with Lineage, that game blew up big time. I don't know if it was the first successful MMO in Korea but it made the company.
Then the company decided to go to full 3D unlike the Diablo style of Lineage for Lineage II, which is actually a prequel. The stock price shot up so much leading up to it's release it was the only time NCSOFT split their stock, three for one, as it was in the 250,000+ a share range. Overall sales nearly doubled between 2003 and 2004 (yes, CoH came out in 2004 but was less than 13% of sales).
Then Guild Wars came out in 2005, did well. Overall sales up 21%.
Then Auto Assault came out in 2006, didn't do well. Overall sales up 10%.
Then Tabula Rasa came out in 2007, didn't do well. At all. Overall sales down 3%. Oops.
2008. Late October 2008. If you had a time machine and wanted to take over the company, that was the time to do it. The stock price closed at a post split low on Oct 27th, 2008 of 24,400 a share. That was below book value, the shareholder's value of a company's assets. Stock quickly rallied after that partially due to reports on Aion's successful beta and buzz generated by it. On Nov 24th, 2008 the stock closed at 41,900. On the 25th Aion went live. By the end of the year the stock was at 52,600. On Aion's first anniversary it was at 151,500.
NCSOFT started big with Lineage. Expanded overseas all over Asia. Invested in several studios in the US. Hit it big with Lineage II. Then hit it really big with Aion. They could do no wrong with their AAA properties.
Overall sales in 2008 was up only 5%, but mostly due to only a month of Aion sales.
In 2009 sales was up 83%, profits up 623%. It was Lineage II's success all over again. The sky was the limit for the stock. Aion brought in sales that were almost as large as Lineage and Lineage II combined in 2009 (89%).
And then ... nothing. For nearly four years. No new MMOs. Lots of talk about B&S and GW2 but nothing to release. It really didn't matter in 2009, they were riding high on Aion's first year.
But sales in 2010 were up only 2%, profits down 6%. No new MMOs.
Sales in 2011 were down 7%, profits down 18%. No new MMOs. And that's when the stock price started to fall. Oct 19th, 2011 the stock closed at it's all time high of 380,500. Almost 3 years after it closed at it's post split low of 24,400.
In 2012 profits kept declining quarter after quarter. And the stock's momentum went from everyone on the party train to outer space to fighting for lifeboats on the Titanic.
And when B&S didn't pull an Aion or Lineage II in terms of sales in the 3Q 2012 numbers. Boom. GW2 didn't matter as much because it's not being played down at the local PC cafe. It's not on their weekly charts. It doesn't matter to Korean investors. What mattered to them was Aion and Lineage II sales taking a dive in 2012 while B&S didn't even pick up the slack to break even.
But still 2012 sales were up 24%, profits by 31%.
Maybe NCSOFT's best days are behind them. They had three big successes in Korea and Asia. But as long as their Asian business is still going strong. And if Wildstar is successful or not, they have at least three or four more AAA MMO titles under development in the upcoming years. As long as they remain profitable as they diversify into Mobile gaming; if GW2 can have the same kind of success in Asia as GW1 had; they aren't going anywhere any time soon.
Wrong. Aion, in it's depressed state, had nearly as much sales in 4Q 2012 than CoH had in it's last two years. Also in Korea Aion is still the number 4 MMORPG in Korea with Lineage being 1 and B&S being 2 (ArcheAge is 3).Agreed, especially since that there are stragglers in their herd that are a.) more sickly, and b.) less likely to cheese off the home crowd.
It'll be news when NCSOFT shuts down entirely any of their big three Korean grown titles.
And if Wildstar is successful or not, they have at least three or four more AAA MMO titles under development in the upcoming years.
A single won? You mean one won? :)
Juan won one won too.
Wrong. Aion, in it's depressed state, had nearly as much sales in 4Q 2012 than CoH had in it's last two years. Also in Korea Aion is still the number 4 MMORPG in Korea with Lineage being 1 and B&S being 2 (ArcheAge is 3).
It'll be news when NCSOFT shuts down entirely any of their big three Korean grown titles.
And that wasn't the worst part...
My friend from Spain was in that same lottery...
Juan won one won too.
A single won? You mean one won? :)
you know, I was in a Korean lottery once. I won one won.
And that wasn't the worst part...
My friend from Spain was in that same lottery...
Juan won one won too.
Wait... Juan won one won when?
Cool! A friend of mine entered a raffle over there once. She got a ballet skirt from a dollar store.
She won one one-won tutu.
But that still does not matter. NCSoft will still close that game any time they feel like it, whether or not it makes sense or whether or not it is making money. That is how they roll.
Sooooooooooooo...... If I were an Aion player, I would be very nervous. If I were heavily invested in GW1, I'd be nervous about that too. This is a very trigger-happy company.
My point was CoH was bringing in a paltry amount of sales compared to Aion even at it's current anemic levels, anemic compared to where it was even a year ago.
You keep saying that, but I still have to point out that I honestly believe that your assessment is based on investor reports that NCsoft has produced in-house, and we don't know what the actual numbers are. It is not unusual for companies to shift numbers around to convey some impression or another, and with less regulation in South Korea than the SEC mandates here in the United States, it would be even easier to do so. I'm telling you, do not trust the numbers that NCsoft is putting out when it comes to sales and expenses. I can't prove it. I wish I could. If this were a U.S. company, I'd have more avenues to chase down to try. I think that someday we'll find out the truth, but it won't be until NCsoft is forced to turn over information that it really wants to keep locked up. But based on what I've been told by people who would know, people I have a lot more trust in than anyone at NCsoft, City of Heroes was doing very well and the amount of money it was making could hardly be called "paltry".
Basically, NCsoft puts $1 into CoH, they get $2. They put $1 into GW2, they get $5. Translate that to millions and its a big difference.
NCsoft closing CoH doesn't make them stupid or malicious, its the way it was conducted that was wrong.
That said, that perspective would make sense if that was an either-or kind of situation - there was no reason not to get both the $2 and $5 returns from supporting both titles. Unless, again, NCsoft execs assumed we'd simply move from the dollar well to the cash cow.
Only if they actually pay to develop those titles in a timely manner. I don't know what the situation in Korea is when it comes to staffing but so far in the US all we are hearing about is cuts. If there are not good updates, frequently, there are other new, shiny, and FTP game out there that will not cost the internet cafes a single won to put on the roster.
My point was CoH was bringing in a paltry amount of sales compared to Aion even at it's current anemic levels, anemic compared to where it was even a year ago. I doubt a game with still over 10x the sales CoH had when it's plug got pulled is in the crosshairs. Yet.
As much as we hated it they didn't close CoH out of malice.
So TonyV, you believe that NCSOFT had been intentionally lying in they investor reports for years leading up to the closure of CoH as part of some grand plan to lay the groundwork for a justifiable reason to close the game? So at what point did this start or is all their numbers for the last 8 years are falsified? That sounds a lot like premeditation which does imply then some degree of malice.
So TonyV, you believe that NCSOFT had been intentionally lying in they investor reports for years leading up to the closure of CoH as part of some grand plan to lay the groundwork for a justifiable reason to close the game?
It's only natural to dismiss facts if they don't agree with our "gut". But how did closing our game, if it was doing as well as you are suggesting, help them?
No company would intentionally upset their customer base unless there was an upside to it, so what was it?
Wow. :) Look what I spawned with a single pun!
THAT was a hilarious read. :)
That still does not matter! This is a honey badger of a company that just does what it wants. If Aion or GW1 or any of their titles stops "aligning with their current focus" then guess what? It ***WILL*** be history. Don't ask questions, dont wonder why. BOOM! CLOSED!
it was probably actually stupidity not malice, yet their actions subsequently reek of malice. They'll reek more strongly of malice just as soon as we find out they're going to refuse to sell the game to Emmert, or Cryptic or whoever. Which I do believe they will do, because that's how they are.
None of us was there, we can only judge on what we see. If it looks like malice, acts like malice, smells like malice and is afraid to say why because oops, got to keep that quiet 'cause it looks like malice, then I believe there is a strong possibility that there's some antisocial behavior going on here.
Do you really think that corporations never lie? They never fudge numbers? because far as I can tell, they do lie and hide their real motives for various actions. It happens every day. Its a big reason that the entire world economy is teetering on the brink as I type. If the whole world can be on the brink due to businesses lying and fudging numbers, you'd better believe one gaming company situated overseas can do it. They probably have LESS oversight than the US does!
Yet apply that to their end. If a deal look fishy smells fishy then it might be fishy. Then they will turn it down.
Then again no one even know if they have plans for the IP or not yet. They havent said. All we know right now they havent (or refused to as some put it) to sell.
The only "plan" they have for that IP is locking it in a nuclear bunker 500 feet underground, pouring a half-ton of concrete over the entrance and then putting the actual Cerebus from Hell in front of the mass to guard it. They don't want it, but they will make damn sure no one else gets it either. There will be no bunker-buster bomb that can reach that IP: it will be dead forever. BUT! Love you guys and FLY FREE, y'hear?
Let's talk about NCsoft's stock in the stockwatch thread, shall we?
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS
They've been solidly in the 140-160 range for the last couple months (with a big dip in early Feb). Between 155-160 for the last week. I don't see them moving much from there without another disaster.
If there's any accuracy to what I heard about how businessmen typically think in Korea, then practically ANY offer to buy CoH wou;ld smell fishy to them.
And this isn't really a racial accusation. It's more of a cultural one. Allegedly they're a little bit skiddish about making deals with people or companies they don't already have ties, and that leads to a lot of what to us would appear to be 'phobia' or spite. This mindset isn't really that weird. We feel it all the time when getting cold calls from telemarketers.
Typically before one starts doing business with another in Korea, they are introduced to each other by a third party that knows both. This means that perhaps all offers made for CoH aside from anything by Paragon Studios, would likely by treated with great skepticism.
Keep in mind I'm not stating this as fact. For one, none of the sources I found made any distinction between North & South Korea, even though those nations are as different as night and day. This is only what I was able to find based on a lot of web link reading. It could be outdated (but even if it is, all cultures have conservatives who stick to older ways of doing things), or it could be a lot of misinformation (intentional or unintentional), like a certain 'other' topic about the traditions of Korea that I hope none of us ever start discussing again. But it certainly seems to fit the behavior of NCsoft during the Paragon City's darkest hour.
In reference to the latest stock update, wasn't February the end of quarter? (And does that mean we are in a new quarter?)I know the business world doesn't always function quite the way I think it does, but I'm pretty sure the quarter is Jan/Feb/Mar, not Dec/Jan/Feb. That being said, since we just entered April, then yes, we are in a new quarter now.
Yeah. Sounds like most corporations. If I called Apple right now and said I want to buy the rights to the Ipod they probably would either laugh their heads off, hang up, give run around until I give up or all three even if I write up a business prop proper and was serious as a heart attack about it and had the means to do it they probably won't take it serious if they entertain it at all. Now if the likes of Google called they probably will set up a business meeting even if to say "hell no!"
I know the business world doesn't always function quite the way I think it does, but I'm pretty sure the quarter is Jan/Feb/Mar, not Dec/Jan/Feb. That being said, since we just entered April, then yes, we are in a new quarter now.
I think you mean Lisa. The iPod, as a property, is still going strong. (Isn't it?)
Was it first quarter aka fiscal year started Jan. or second quarter, fiscal year in Oct.?That one always throws me. It doesn't help that it's different from business to business.
In reference to the latest stock update, wasn't February the end of quarter? (And does that mean we are in a new quarter?)
I think you mean Lisa. The iPod, as a property, is still going strong. (Isn't it?)
Either way. Insert any major corporation and product. Figured apple would be mist recognizable compared to some that is well known in my circles but unheard of in most others.
Lisa and Newton aren't even the best examples. True, Apple doesn't support them, but try walking into an Apple Store and asking the "Genius Bar" to take a look at your early Intel-Mac (say, an original white MacBook). I couldn't get an answer on it when "Snow Leopard" was new, and I had just upgraded it to "Leopard." I know Apple still technically supports it, but they don't make it easy on you. And, when it comes down to it, I can still pull my old PowerMac out of the garage and fire it up, if I really feel masochistic.
And, Tubbius, it's amazing what a stray "ncStock--" can do... ;D
Only article I saw garbled this week (slam of Google Translate) was one on how hard it was to crack the NA/EU market with a Korean MMO.
Like, you know, that one game that did well here (Well by standards of non-WoW MMOs, that is) despite receiving practically zero advertising so almost no one was even aware of it.... now which game was that, I can't quite remember....
:p
put coins in the slot to come back down again. :P
NC S*^$T should open an amusement park. They can use their stock chart for the rollercoaster. That would be one heck of a ride! ;D
the stock seems suprisingly stable despite the upswing in coh media, although my guess is its more reflecting on what happened to coh than bashing ncsoft and/or pointing out one of the many flaws about themYeah.
I must say "Sword of the Spirit" has a much nicer ring to it than "Blade & Soul."
On the other hand, both of them sound stupid next to 'City of Heroes'. :pthe Korean name even was "city of hero". talk about individuality!
the Korean name even was "city of hero". talk about individuality!
That's because the plural for hero in Korean is hero.Sort of like the plural of sheep is sheep?
Sort of like the plural of sheep is sheep?
That's because the plural for hero in Korean is hero.
Marketing was stupid on that one. Marketing it in Korea they should have packaged it in Korean.
Want to bet that NCSoft (this being pre-Paragon Studios, IIRC) didn't allocate enough money to do a proper localization on it?
I can't see CoH as having had the ability to make any significant dent in their home-grown MMOs even if it had gotten a full push in Korea.
Well, if NCSoft asked for a Korean port, I suppose it would make sense.
However on the political side of things, the U.S. military isn't there to occupy the country--a lot of the hatred stemmed from specific incidents. That, and South Korea's consensus on America fluctuates. There was an article I read about an opinion poll in 2008 finding that 80% of South Koreans viewed Americans favorably, compared to polls showing the exact opposite years earlier.
That's why I mentioned the anti-American sentiment as being back then--because around 2006 when Cryptic was doing the City of Hero thing, there was still a lot of hatred for the U.S. over the 2002 Yangju highway incident and controversy at the 2004 Olympics.
As for hating Americans, well we have been "occupying" their country for 60 years with a sizable military force and like Okinawa in Japan, there's been incidents that show that we are somethings not the best guests. A lot of it deals with pollution from our various bases. There is enough public awareness
(And add in that our HYGIENE tends to be remarkably high compared even to Europe, due to having built our infrastructure and culture with more modern standards in mind, and we really come out smelling, not like a rose, but like soap.)
What if it's rose-scented soap?I think we'd confuse poor Mr. Montegue. Would a soap by any other scent still name as sweet?
[...] general investor sediment [...]
LOL. Nice typo. I need to start referring to certain stocks as "sediment".Ah ... sun was in my eyes ... :roll:
I hereby (under no real authority) rename this thread "The Zwillinger" as it is all tangents, all the time.
Ah ... sun was in my eyes ... :roll:Who, in their right mind, would argue with a dragon? They think we are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
How about an inherent problem with Dragon, even the wrong words are spelt correctly. :o
English is my first language but sometimes you can't tell. :-[
http://www.japanfocus.org/-Hayashi-Kiminori/3185I work on one. And it's one of the cleanest facilities I've seen, "green" college campuses included.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/graphics/pentagon_pollution/flash.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-10-14-cover-pollution_x.htm
http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/arcquality/5connsubx6.html
You obviously don't live near a base do you Segev, or if you do you don't watch the local news in the last decade or two. And nearly all of those articles deal with pollution here in the US. Now imagine overseas where we don't have to congressmen fighting for the people they represent who are affected by that pollution.
LOL. Nice typo. I need to start referring to certain stocks as "sediment".
See I've had the misfortune to live close to a number of closed bases that later were declared EPA Superfund sites due to the water and soil contamination there.
I'm sure today military bases are the poster child of environmental responsibility but that doesn't magically fix a problem that stemmed from activities and practices from the 50s through 80s where stopping those "Ruskies" was always priority one.
See I've had the misfortune to live close to a number of closed bases that later were declared EPA Superfund sites due to the water and soil contamination there.
I'm sure today military bases are the poster child of environmental responsibility but that doesn't magically fix a problem that stemmed from activities and practices from the 50s through 80s where stopping those "Ruskies" was always priority one.
See I've had the misfortune to live close to a number of closed bases that later were declared EPA Superfund sites due to the water and soil contamination there.
I'm sure today military bases are the poster child of environmental responsibility but that doesn't magically fix a problem that stemmed from activities and practices from the 50s through 80s where stopping those "Ruskies" was always priority one.
Bearing in mind that this was around the same timeframe when you could buy an Erector set with a Geiger counter and a small chunk of Uranium.
http://www.burlingamepezmuseum.com/bannedtoy/fivetoone.html
A lot of military bases have infrastructure that is old as dirt and been around since the 40s-70s. Even here in the states on a base, they tore down housing that still used abestos and mold issues and had people living in it up to it even as recent as 2012. It took them that long to finally fix the problem. The army is now going "green" but lot of stuff hanging around since the old days because the military is basically excempt from many EPA regulations, although now they are more complying with them not out of sheer love for the environment but more so for political and in many cases after hindsight, mission standards.
As a former nuclear reactor operator, I'm not gonna be signing any petitions to bring that one back to ToysRUs, but I would be OK with it in a high school physics class. Give it the same security that raw sodium gets.Word to that, man.
Keesler AFB in Biloxi, Mississippi. There's a rather amusing building called "Jones Hall". Within it there's a room called "Air Room" where the ventilation is recycled. Directly on the door? "WARNING: Asbestos." I only wish they would've let me take a photograph of that.
Anyone that claims that Military bases are so incredibly clean can probably only speak for its internal sanitation. They're cleaned religiously. But the crap pumped out of, especially the older, bases is pretty bad.
Word to that, man.
Also, their recent bump from mid-April appears not to be slowing too much. Bummer.
Might be worthwhile to check it in inflation-adjusted money, but that's hard to measure accurately due to what is used as a metric and, more importantly, what isn't.
The main thing the really hits me is that from the looks of that chart, CoH really was the bottom earner of their games for the longest time. ... as much as people will hate to hear it, NCSoft 'might' have made a sound business decision with closing CoH, as it was such a small share of the revenue. They took out a game that had costs and a low return on said costs, streamlining what they had. ... Chances are they didn't see any coming increase in CoH's playerbase, especially subscribing playerbase, and as a result figured it wouldn't be worth it anymore.
With little to no advertising budget, it's no wonder that CoH had a hard time bringing in new players. Most gamers didn't know the game existed. What kind of revenues could have been brought it with just a commercial here or there, like WoW or Halo? What if they advertised in comic book stores? Magazines? We know those at Paragon Studios wanted to advertise...
*heavy sigh*
Yes but do NCSOFT advertise any of their games well here, other than around when it's released and the first and maybe the second holiday season? I remember back when there were PC gaming magazines that they did advertise those first few years. Then magazines went away. Then the section in stores that handled PC games got smaller and smaller until only a few games with paid product placement (all things Blizzard, all things Sims) and whatever new games that just came out. I always content, and it looks as if Blizzard and EA agrees, that being on the shelf is the best advertising you can "buy". Before it was all about an end cap, now with the limited space, it's just keeping a few copies in stock and on display.if I wander into racist territory, censor me, but I think this may have something with Korean market not needing as much advertising as Occidental. why not, since they are more into PvP than us, that just may be another difference.
if I wander into racist territory, censor me, but I think this may have something with Korean market not needing as much advertising as Occidental. why not, since they are more into PvP than us, that just may be another difference.
Thing is, it turned bad for City of Heroes, since it was nearly a west-exclusive game.
it still bugs me to see ncsoft succeeding, although as stated most of those numbers are coming from just korean gamers not much outside that
im just glad im not feeding the beast that killed us by playing any of their games
With little to no advertising budget, it's no wonder that CoH had a hard time bringing in new players. Most gamers didn't know the game existed. What kind of revenues could have been brought it with just a commercial here or there, like WoW or Halo? What if they advertised in comic book stores? Magazines? We know those at Paragon Studios wanted to advertise...
*heavy sigh*
That's a REALLY good point. Three years ago, I didn't even know CoH existed. It took my girlfriend at the time telling me about it for me to try it out.
In my case, I got into CoH by word of mouth. I'd known about the game for a few years prior thanks to friends who played it, but I didn't get into it until 2008, when I played a free trial with some other acquaintances.
CoH didn't hold their attention for more than a month at best, but it sure held mine.
...most games/MMOs go other routes. NCsoft missed that "other routes" part a lot though.
I didn't mind that NCSoft didn't advertise CoX. It just meant those who played had been invited to play by those already playing. Kinda like an exclusive club for just "the cool kids". Kept out a lot of the riff-raff imo.
But as far as CoX making such a small profit, that's entirely NC's fault. CoX had something that WoW and all it's clones don't have - a CITY. A city full of BILLBOARDS.
How do you make a game that takes place in an expansive city full of billboards and NOT charge for advertising space on them? Nike, Mountain Dew, Chevrolet - this game could've made sick amounts of cash for NC.
They tried, it was a huge flop. Though I still remember the remarkably forgettable Jeter Clutch tennis shoe.They didn't try.
They didn't try.
The easiest way to sell adspace is to prove it works. There was nary an Aeon or Lineage billboard anywhere in Paragon or the Isles. You can't expect to sell adspace that you don't even think can promote your own products.
The best way to get non-Gamers into the MMO fold is T.V. People that don't play MMOs have little idea of what is out there. A movie may have a short ad for GW2 before it starts, but that is about it for the West. WoW had the ONLY T.V. ads I have seen! Yes, I know it's pricey, but if you ask any non-Gamer what MMO they even know about I would guess WoW would be the answer they would give if they even had one. Just my 2 infl on that.
ok enough B.S. what would have I done? put up a bunch of new billboards in atlas and other high visit regions, enough so the players will definitely see them as "hey, that wasn't there before the server update" then put up unauthorized advertisements for big companies and thier products without thier permission. even advertisements for thier competitors so there is no special treatment, then send them links. and say "this isn't permanent, but in the future this space is available for purchase and is viewed by #people every day."
The best way to get non-Gamers into the MMO fold is T.V. People that don't play MMOs have little idea of what is out there. A movie may have a short ad for GW2 before it starts, but that is about it for the West. WoW had the ONLY T.V. ads I have seen! Yes, I know it's pricey, but if you ask any non-Gamer what MMO they even know about I would guess WoW would be the answer they would give if they even had one. Just my 2 infl on that.
Since it was a third party company who ran the ad server you are asking NCSOFT to pay someone to run ads for one or more of their games, in another of game that is theirs.Good point. I knew they tried it before but figured they had they're own marketing department doing it, not a 3rd party. After the ad thing went bust, I still think they should've replaced some billboard textures with ads for their other games. Sure, advertising in-game is new ground, but so was CoH back in the day.
ive seen ads for other games on tv as well (world of tanks, wizard 101, pirate 101 are some recent examples)(not so recent would be toon town)
i actually havent seen a WoW tv commercial since the panda expansion came out yet i see a world of tanks commercial at least once every week
ive seen ads for other games on tv as well (world of tanks, wizard 101, pirate 101 are some recent examples)(not so recent would be toon town)
i actually havent seen a WoW tv commercial since the panda expansion came out yet i see a world of tanks commercial at least once every week
You must be seeing these on more kid-centric networks than the ones I watch. I have a boy who spends a few hours a week watching Cartoon Network, but I don't usually pay all that much attention. My own viewing is primarily network and USA Network, with a little BBCAmerica, and I only saw a couple of WoW ads around the time of the panda expansion launch.
I think there was an ad for the Pirates of the Caribbean game around the time it launched, and that may have only been on ABC, which is owned by Disney.
The devs also have to look at ad revenue vs intrusiveness. If the ads are bringing in money but they are hampering the game for players because of how obnoxious they are you will eventually lose players and the ads will no longer bring in money.Given that his radio show is actually quite successful, makes him millions while supporting numerous full-time staff, and is aired by many, many affiliates, I find your assertions suspect. Whether you agree with his politics or not (and I do, while clearly you don't), it is pretty silly to claim he's losing money for people who pay for the privilege of having him on their airwaves. KMOX, in St. Louis, is not conservative in the slightest, and looks for excuses to pre-empt his program with just about anything, but they still pay for the privilege of having it.
The billboards and maybe store locations could be a nice touch, but if you start adding floating ads around trainers, on the loading screen, log in screen, character UI, giving away special items for using the ads...yikes that just sounds stressful.
Also, Rush Limbaugh is probably the worst person in the world to talk about advertising. Hundreds of stations that air his caustic, hateful rants have lost money and sponsors have been running away from him for a long time now. I would personally avoid any company that went out of their way to be associated with his show.
Given that his radio show is actually quite successful, makes him millions while supporting numerous full-time staff, and is aired by many, many affiliates, I find your assertions suspect. Whether you agree with his politics or not (and I do, while clearly you don't), it is pretty silly to claim he's losing money for people who pay for the privilege of having him on their airwaves. KMOX, in St. Louis, is not conservative in the slightest, and looks for excuses to pre-empt his program with just about anything, but they still pay for the privilege of having it.
Also, anybody who accuses him of hate speech doesn't listen to his show, and thus can safely have their opinion of it disregarded.
But we're not here to tear each other apart. All I was doing is pointing out one useful model that supported Joshex's suggestion of doing free advertising to demonstrate your venue's effectiveness.
Also, anybody who accuses him of hate speech doesn't listen to his show, and thus can safely have their opinion of it disregarded.
Given that his radio show is actually quite successful, makes him millions while supporting numerous full-time staff, and is aired by many, many affiliates, I find your assertions suspect.He may still be doing better than most syndicated radio shows, but he's heading downhill pretty fast these days.
And his method to change the standard model of advertising...worked. The model he uses now is the one he pioneered then, and is mimicked by most personality-based shows. It is, in effect, a broadcast-media version of celebrity endorsement.I certainly can't argue with any of that. I've seen others successfully apply that model over the years too.
However, it should work for just about any medium that needs to track performance of its specific impact on its audience's buying decisions.
He may still be doing better than most syndicated radio shows, but he's heading downhill pretty fast these days.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/opinion/obeidallah-rush-limbaugh/index.html
You are using an opinion piece by a political comic as proof.You misunderstand. I'm not stating that the opinion presented by the article is correct or incorrect. It was the points presented about the number of advertisers that have pulled ads and the number of ads that are being aired for Rush's show. Really, if you wanted to boil it down to just one quote, it would probably be this: "Well, according to the radio industry magazine 'Radio Ink,' 48 of the 50 network advertisers for Cumulus radio have excluded Limbaugh's show from their ad orders." I guess I shouldn't have assumed that anyone would interpret that the way I intended without specifically spelling it out.
Dont have much time, but to address point 2...Do you literally believe schools should not feed poor children? I guess if they can't bring their lunch they should go hungry, huh? Get those kids some bootstraps to pull themselves up by then they can eat!
And, since we failed our "let it lie" roll, I'll go ahead and respond to the "abortion" criticism: I don't recall ever hearing him say that, and I do listen pretty regularly. Moreover, if you actually look at how abortions ARE carried out, they're almost as violent, and certain methods still practiced today have nearly as hazardous an effect on the woman.
Purely by coincidence (seriously, I wasn't looking for it), I stumbled across this article (http://spectator.org/archives/2013/05/14/cumulus-media-suicide-of-a-com/) discussing Cumulus Media's Rush issues and that boycott. Mostly Cumulus media, actually, but it does discuss the boycott, and how those lists don't include people who ever DID advertise on Limbaugh's show.
It's the equivalent of a bunch of mormons signing a pledge to boycott Budweiser and Maxwell House.
And if you see racism in the NBA and NFL comments, then you're the racist; I'm sorry. Rush comments on behavior, not skin color. He probably would say something similar about the NHL if it came up on his radar. (To my knowledge, he isn't as big a fan of hockey as he is of basketball and football, so it likely won't unless somebody brings it up to him.)
As far as Indians being equivalent to Jews in the holocaust: 1) that's remarkably insensitive of you considering the actual events of the holocaust, and 2) I don't see Germany setting up national guilt-fests to blame white Germans for generational sins against jews, trying to claim that Germans are illegitimately in their own country because of how the Jews were treated, etc.
As it's the "reparations" and affirmative-action mindset to which Rush responds, attempting to liken it to the holocaust is a straw man at best, and offensive at worst.
Ah, yes, and I almost forgot the school lunch issue: No, I don't think schools should be feeding kids for free. There are programs for that already, and frankly, there are private organizations (my own church amongst them) that would be delighted to help out. I'm a huge fan of charity; I loathe government handouts. The incentives are all backwards, as a bureaucrat's job is measured by how many people he has on his program, not by how many he's gotten off of it. Charities can, at least, be much more local, and are much more directly answerable to their donors. Government needs to be made more efficient? How heartless are you for wanting to STARVE CHILDREN! Charity not doing it's job right? Well, donate to a different one.
That's digression, however. In short: no. I think parents should feed their kids. If they can't, they're squandering funds from extant programs that are already meant to.
Overall, I agree that more initiative could have been taken to promote advertising for the game.
I also have to agree with the argument that there weren't enough players on the servers for teaming. It was always a concern. We had SO MANY MAPS! It seemed our populace was spread very thin. We got even more maps when Going Rogue was launched, spreading us out even further!
Sure we could have gone with web ads. However I always had a fear in the back of my mind that they'll end up like this.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.gamearena.com.au%2Fres%2F2007%2Fimages%2Ffeatures%2Fcustom%2Fsinglefeatures%2Fevony.jpg)
Isn't Evony basically a turn-based strategy game? In other words, nothing like what the scantily clad women shown in the ads?
Yeah, the tangent needs to end.
Elections will always speak for themselves, and we don't need to be tearing each other apart in here.
Don't tell that to everybody, most games will stop selling because of you!Isn't Evony basically a turn-based strategy game? In other words, nothing like what the scantily clad women shown in the ads?ssshhhh! :roll:
ssshhhh! :roll:
Don't tell that to everybody, most games will stop selling because of you!
Back on topic, NCsoft is rapidly backpedaling away from their announced "expansion".Interesting!
http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/05/14/ncsoft-taking-a-wait-and-see-stance-on-guild-wars-2-expansion/
Is anyone else mildly amused by their choice of screenshot there?
I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly - are you saying it's basically a planned thing? How's that work in NCsoft's favor - each time they do it, it makes them look less in control of their own subsidiaries.
Since we hate to talk about cultural differences here, I'm sorry, but in a lot of Asian countries, you simply do not say no in a face to face (live) conversation. It's considered rude. You deflect, you say the matter is under consideration, you nod your head in agreement as if you concede them the point they are making but you say anything but no.
This isn't just and east vs. west thing. This same tactic has been used by politicians, businessmen, public officials, pundits, and just about everybody who makes their living working with the public. The whole idea is to imply that you are open to everything without ever actually going on record as being either for or against it.
Personally I hope A-net does stand their ground on this. Not because of any (somewhat justified) anti- NC Soft bias on my part, but more because it annoys me when I see anybody acting this way. If you're going to run a business, run it as fairly as you can. Leave the 'creative accounting' and 'innovative marketing strategies' to those people who just want to make a fast buck. If you want customers who will be with you 20-50-100 years down the road, behave.
Yeah wish it was that simple. Yet corporations that treat customers like mere numbers and don't give a crap about what they think rake in billions while businesses trying to keep a personal touch and fair shake barely survives it at all. Politicians, the same types keep voted in over and over and over and over. Its like people as a whole say they don't like it but don't make a move to one that suits what they say they want. Like the big uproar that happens every so often about BoA charging fees for everything but not many making a move to banks that is better no fees or ability to talk to real person. Either people are fearful, hopeless feeling, or contrary to what some vocal people say like the way things are with corporations, don't care, or thinks its messed up but accept it as that is just how the world works. So in essence corporations get the best of both worlds. They can make a quick buck without regards and still have people hanging around for decades even if the gripe and complain and belly ache with or without good cause. On one hand why would they care if even the ones that gripe and complain about the treatment and or customer service if they still put money into the company and or don't even bother leave? Don't sound like much incentive besides showing that companies can make a killing by screwing over customers and they may fuss and vote worse company polls but they still will go no where no matter how you treat them especially if ya a major company.
Yeah wish it was that simple. Yet corporations that treat customers like mere numbers and don't give a crap about what they think rake in billions while businesses trying to keep a personal touch and fair shake barely survives it at all. Politicians, the same types keep voted in over and over and over and over. Its like people as a whole say they don't like it but don't make a move to one that suits what they say they want. Like the big uproar that happens every so often about BoA charging fees for everything but not many making a move to banks that is better no fees or ability to talk to real person. Either people are fearful, hopeless feeling, or contrary to what some vocal people say like the way things are with corporations, don't care, or thinks its messed up but accept it as that is just how the world works. So in essence corporations get the best of both worlds. They can make a quick buck without regards and still have people hanging around for decades even if the gripe and complain and belly ache with or without good cause. On one hand why would they care if even the ones that gripe and complain about the treatment and or customer service if they still put money into the company and or don't even bother leave? Don't sound like much incentive besides showing that companies can make a killing by screwing over customers and they may fuss and vote worse company polls but they still will go no where no matter how you treat them especially if ya a major company.
I agree not enough people take a stand. I do what I can in my local market, from my banking, to my food shopping to my dining out. My area has so many little neat and wonderful stores. I wish more people stood up to big business with their wallets (*coughcoughncsoftcoughcough*). Sadly there are some institutions that have monopolies (cable tv, colleges, gas, power). With today's modern conveniences, the only way to make an impact would be to go without them ye old catch 22
The original cable TV monopolies started, at least in my state, was based on them taking on the up front cost of stringing up the cable throughout a region. By guaranteeing every home in a region could be connected to it for a modest fee, they were given monopoly status for that region and their rates would be regulated as a public utility. This was still back in the day of the original Ma Bell where you rented the phones in your home (I'm talking the late 1960s).
Well ATT U-Verse is sprouting up all over but there was a huge fight in my state by the various regional cable companies to first stop them and then making sure they got regulated as well. The thing is U-Verse can cherry pick their roll out, wiring more affluent areas first, even if this means wiring past many less affluent neighborhoods to get there.
All I have to say is that I have been very negatively impressed with Time Warner as a service provider, and I live in one of the apartment complexes where they're the only option.
Stock's taking a crazy dive of like 6k won. Any ideas why?
Stock's taking a crazy dive of like 6k won. Any ideas why?
Note that 6k KRW is only like five dollars, so it's not really a "crazy dive"...
Well it is a 2.8% drop in a day. Of course there was a 6.7% rise back on May 3rd that few noted.
A few interesting tidbits about the way NCSoft handles games. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3F_ZcvR-pg)
I was hoping this wouldn't be Dontain's video again. It's sad that I can recognize the video ID.
He doesn't know anything he is talking about. He totally misread an article about the last investor conference call, one that ArenaNet rebuffed a day later for a second time (NCSOFT did the same thing at the 4Q CC as well). He also completely ignores the fact that "Hey, NCSOFT owns ArenaNet so on one level, it's all NCSOFT's money anyways" before he spins off wildly about who ArenaNet isn't calling the shots or sees any of the cash shop money and before he digs into the laundry list of everything GW1 (and WoW) players have been complaining about in GW2.
It makes perfect sense to me considering how they handled City of Heroes and their communications to the US/EU markets thus far:
That we're not a market they care about or are really interested in, and the games we're interested in aren't games they are interested in, we're a quick cash in side project to help fund projects they care about that sell well in markets they care about.
That makes perfect sense with shutting down CoH when it was merely making enough money for itself. NCSoft put almost no money into making CoH a better brand (programmers, advertisement) because it wasn't a game their CEOs either understood or cared about and we (US/EU) aren't a market they understand or care about. They wanted to throw in the bare minimal of effort to get a quick chunk of development change to throw towards their favored market, and the minute we were no longer funding their other games, even if we were in the black, we got the axe.
They don't care about our perception of their company, because, again we're not who they're interested in selling to. We were an open wallet for Lineage and Blade & Soul development. Nothing more.
They won't sell CoH because the IP, in the hands of people who understand the genre and our market, could create competition for them, but they won't leave the lights on because it's not funding games they personally find interesting.
So, hearing somebody complain that the same thing is happening with Guild Wars 2? Makes perfect sense to me.
to try to keep this on track, the last week has seen a noticeable down slope in ncsoft stock, ive not been keeping up with the news so i wouldnt have the first idea what could be causing it, or if it is just a standard up/down slope
One does have to wonder, if that tax isn't to specifically fund MMO developers then why is it only placed on them? If it's to fund any and all startups, you'd think they'd make it a bit more general.
I just had to check the stock on the current face- it is up 5k since the close at 160k. I do not know if NCSoft is traded on the NYSE or the NASDAQ.NASDAQ
That quote is over 3 years old, Dec 4, 2009. It's a straight up conversion to USD from where the stock closed that day at 158,500 KrW. It just happens to be really close to where the stock is now.
why are we so fascinated with watching their stock? are we hoping for a collapse ( which I dont believe for one minute is going to happen )
I tried to convey that stock price is a very poor indicator of the actual health of the company. I tried pointing out that when the stock was over 375,000 that the company's fundamentals never supported that price level and the 18 month steep decline was a long overdue correction followed by market psychology and momentum that drove it further down with no support from the financials. The upward movement since February is simply the stock slowly rebounding from the oversell. End of June it closed at 162,000. That gives us a TTM P/E of 15 or so.
On the flip side of that, Apple stock, with Jobs back at the helm of the company, went from $10 to nearly $400 over ten years. Most companies aren't that tied to the public psyche, though. This thread is more for the gratification of those who want to see NC$oft fail, and there really isn't any other publicly available metric to use. Is it essentially meaningless? Absolutely. But people need to find hope and satisfaction in different ways. For some, it's watching a graph from one day to the next.don't think I could've said it better.
don't think I could've said it better.
To many, symbols and visuals matter the most, the appearance and hope that they are hurting and on the verge of bankruptcy when in reality, most long term investors (That I know of) don't care or even worry about little dips and usually just buy more at that point. They are looking at long term, 5 years and up.
And some companies stock look "healthy" then the company crash. A lot of people forget that GM been in bad shape for years before declaring bankruptcy and the media circus that followed, which then the stock went down the tube, but GM was already in the tube long prior.
Just about every company stock sheet looks like a seismometer located in a place that have constant earthquakes and volcanos.
But right now, since the stock is most visual thing and a symbol of wealth, people grab onto that and celebrate every little dip as a victory of "teaching them a lesson" for closing down the game.
The thread is titles stock watch, but truthfully, the real purpose is obvious. As you notice, many don't say a single word or post when the stock rises, but jump on with joy when it goes down. It's really "NCSOFT stock watch and hope it crash" thread. But I doubt it will crash anytime soon, probably to many dismay. It's just doing what Father Xmas explained it was doing. Yet, dont fret, they will have their chance to "stick it to the man" soon enough. But first they have to escape the power that NCSOFT still apparently hold over the emotions in the way that some seem to live breath think about NCSOFT 24/7, while NCSOFT probably haven't given so much as a thought probably since their last statement shortly after release. I doubt ncsoft counted on many angry players to go to their other games or give them money. Or they would be silly to think so. And of course they probably wont re-release COX even if they wanted to. If people mean what they say then it's guaranteed that it will make even less money, making it not even worth re-release in it's current form. Thus the ex-customers gave them no reason to even consider bringing it back.
Make the successors succeed, support it like nothing have been supported before in the history of games, and become a real threat in the form of competition that they created and take over the market. A tall order but that is probably the only way to "get back" at NCSOFT in way that is beyond hollow words and being angry 24/7 for the rest of the life. Because quite frankly, I don't think NCSOFT from their actions gives a crap about some people being angry and not giving $15 a month. Their prerogative. As long as people keep NCSOFT on the mind all day every day and angry and stuff and add to their traffic numbers on their sites NCSOFT is really winning. Ads and sponsors don't look at comments, they look at traffic
Want to win? Victory is already waiting people just have to claim it. We have games being built, we gained knowledge about the sledge of the corporate gaming world and how it can burn people. Hopefully not taking for granted the people that many used to flame in the past when they tried to warn us about the way corporations in the gaming world work and the risks. And we'll have a home where no one can take away with absolutely no control that NCSOFT have. We already won, it's just that some people don't seem to realize it yet.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/14/ncsoft-sales-are-up-income-is-down/
"It looks as though North American sales has decreased from Q1, but an increase in Japanese and Korean sales has more than made up for the loss."
Good for NCSoft. Here's hoping they keep inching out, and then stay out.
If anything a successful launch of Wildstar may force them to realize that Asian style MMOs simply don't fly here and the proper strategy all along is separate east and west style MMOs as oppose to trying to find a universal one.That would require some degree of actual intelligence, rational thought and business acumen. You might want to lower your expectations since this is, after all, NCSoft we're talking about here...
That would require some degree of actual intelligence, rational thought and business acumen. You might want to lower your expectations since this is, after all, NCSoft we're talking about here...
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/14/ncsoft-sales-are-up-income-is-down/
"It looks as though North American sales has decreased from Q1, but an increase in Japanese and Korean sales has more than made up for the loss."
Good for NCSoft. Here's hoping they keep inching out, and then stay out.
It's too bad we're not all stinking rich. We could continuously buy up NCSoft stock in an attempt at a hostile takeover.
I'm a little curious as to whether somebody has looked into the feasibility of this.
I'm a little curious as to whether somebody has looked into the feasibility of this.
"It looks as though North American sales has decreased from Q1, but an increase in Japanese and Korean sales has more than made up for the loss."I wonder what happens when they run out countries with gamers they haven't alienated yet. Stress on yet, as they just can't seem to help themselves...
What if we used Plan Z to fund a takeover attempt?I'd rather see Plan Z funded to bring a spiritual successor to City of Heroes to the market, but that's just me.
No I meant that once Plan Z becomes reality and goes live, we try to use it to help us get back CoH.
And I don't know, maybe if we get that far then we can integrate the two together?
I'm a little curious as to whether somebody has looked into the feasibility of this.
As for the leadership getting forced out... that's also not going to happen. To do that you first need to get a seat on the board, then you need to talk the majority of the board around to ousting Kim. Getting on the board isn't easy. You'd pretty much have to buy out Nexon or TPG to do it. In any case, it would cost somewhere around $200M to get your hands on enough stock to force your way onto the board. And if you did go after Nexon's stock, for example, you'd find they're run by one of Kim's closest friends and that he'd get a better deal and first chance at the stock. But let's say you replace Byung-moo Park on the board. That still leaves you trying to talk two out of three of Kim's close friends and associates into stabbing him in the back (there are five board members, so you need your own vote plus two others). I doubt there's one chance in a billion of getting COO Hee-sang Lee to do that. Meaning you have to get both Myung Oh and Yun-seok Seo to side with you. They're both close to Kim and particularly his wife Yoon. I've said it before and I'll say it again... NCsoft is not some old megacorp being run by a group of detached investor proxies, it's a young company being run by the founders and a very close-knit group of socially connected individuals. There's just no crack for a hostile takeover effort to pry open. Kim isn't going anywhere until he feels like it.
I wonder how much it would cost to buy the baseball team out from under them.Probably a pretty penny. They been trying to get into baseball overthere for years. In 2001, they tried buying a team and lost the bid. Then in 2011 created their own, NC Dinos.
Probably a pretty penny. They been trying to get into baseball overthere for years. In 2001, they tried buying a team and lost the bid. Then in 2011 created their own, NC Dinos.
Sounds strangely familiar. Made offer, lost, decided to create their own. hmmm. Anyways... to the point.
Not sure how much would they take but given this is the teams first season, they probably want to hold onto it for a bit but I have no idea how the baseball team sale/buy/creation system works there. If it works like buying a MLB team even on a small end, then it's probably pricey that even some run of the mill millionaire can just up and buy one. And seeing that each of the teams is owned by some of the largest corporations in Korea, it's probably very very exspensive...but less than a hostile takeover ;D. Want to start a kickstarter for it? :D
The teams aren't that expensive, around $20M, but few run in the black so you have to expect to keep feeding money into them. And all are sponsored/owned by large corporations - including Samsung, Kia and LG. The KT Wiz are the next expansion team, to be added in 2015. The teams rarely change hands and - as with all such leagues - getting the OK to join is rather political.
The NC Dinos were originally going to play in Seoul, but ended up in Changwon down on the southern tip of Korea. They replaced Hyundai's defunct club there. The Hyundai club was called the "Unicorns" and folded in 2008. So NCSoft's team is the stand in for the Unicorns. The Unicorns themselves were subsequently resurrected in 2010 and are now known as the Nexen Heroes. Another mild irony for us here on Titan.
Here big business is content simply having their name on the stadium. In South Korea and Japan they actually own and run the baseball team. It's an extension of corporate spirit/pride/ego much like your teams in high school or college.
In their first year the NC Dinos are currently #8 in a 9 team league. There's an extinction joke in there somewhere.
Rank Name - Games Played Won Tie Loss Runs For:Against Win Percentage
1. Samsung Lions - 107 61 2 44 539:469 0.589
2. LG Twins - 109 64 0 45 541:429 0.587
3. Doosan Bears - 110 62 2 46 601:529 0.582
4. Nexen Heroes - 109 59 2 48 551:511 0.560
5. Lotte Giants - 107 53 3 51 457:468 0.523
6. SK Wyverns - 104 52 2 50 465:448 0.519
7. KIA Tigers - 105 46 2 57 494:560 0.457
8. NC Dinos - 109 45 4 60 456:480 0.450
9. Hanwha Eagles - 106 32 1 73 381:591 0.311
yeah I was figuring the maintain factor and the political factor of getting it. Money and politics go hand in hand.
Did the NC Dinos play the Nexen Heroes yet?
They just had a two game series. Nexen won 2-1 yesterday. Today's game was rained out. They split the previous series 6-5, 1-6 (NC's score listed first). Back in June Nexen took 2 out of 3: 4-1, 1-2, 5-9. They split 2 in May: 4-6, 7-1. Nexen took both in April: 0-1, 2-12. And in March they split 2: 1-6, 7-4. So, Nexen leads the head-to-head season series 8-4.Heroes dont win all the time but they prevail most of the time. XD
Why waste your money trying to cause NCSoft's downfall when they'll most likely do the work for you? Sure you'll have to wait it out. I'm sure they'll attempt some kind of move that will infuriated the GW2 community, enough for those players to realize as COH players know, just what kind of publisher really supports the game. At least, that's what I hope will happen.Yeah.
Even so, until they decide to actually release the rights to COH or what have you, there is nothing much we as players can do other then not play their games and not give them money.
Hi guys, im new to the thread, but iv been following it for some time. I didnt play COH, but understand your pain, it sucks when something you love it taken from you. My personal opinion is expect aggressive ralliesfor NCSOFT as GW2 goes to china and Wildstar releases next year spring. Also dont forget Lineage Eternal which is looming.
The main reason on im posting is becuase there is a really really decent presence of market knowledge about NCSOFT here and their stocks. I really enjoy listening to all your feedback especially Father Xmas's.
So im curious. we just had a strong rally from 179 500 to 194 000 over the last 2 days. Does anyone know the reason, I personally was expecting to see more Investor Risk sentiment kick in after the lack luster Q2 report we had last month, we had it about 15% drop but now we have seen an aggressive rally in the last few days.
I suspect this is just that inevitable correction you guys where talking about.
I have looked around and short of GW2 releasing a new content patch and 7day free trial, there is little else on the Radar.
Currently my theory is it could be to do with the report "Online, Social and Mobile Games Publishers and Market in Asia" that was just released that had NCSOFT in the report. I cant confirm this, as its locked behind a $3000 paywall. But short of that is this just a correction, or do expensive reports like this cause rallies of over 10% in 2 days?
Cheers
Damo
I wonder how much it would cost to buy the baseball team out from under them.
In their first year the NC Dinos are currently #8 in a 9 team league. There's an extinction joke in there somewhere.
Rank Name - Games Played Won Tie Loss Runs For:Against Win Percentage
1. Samsung Lions - 107 61 2 44 539:469 0.589
2. LG Twins - 109 64 0 45 541:429 0.587
3. Doosan Bears - 110 62 2 46 601:529 0.582
4. Nexen Heroes - 109 59 2 48 551:511 0.560
5. Lotte Giants - 107 53 3 51 457:468 0.523
6. SK Wyverns - 104 52 2 50 465:448 0.519
7. KIA Tigers - 105 46 2 57 494:560 0.457
8. NC Dinos - 109 45 4 60 456:480 0.450
9. Hanwha Eagles - 106 32 1 73 381:591 0.311
I don't know about you guys, but I just became a Hanwha Eagles fan. ;)
I don't know about you guys, but I just became a Hanwha Eagles fan. ;)
NC Dinos have moved into 7th, by one win and one tie.
http://www.sportstats.com/baseball/south-korea/kpb/standings/
As for news, and I don't know why I missed it, there was the big Korean Games Conference going on. I didn't see any NCSOFT news specifically but maybe the outcry of PC online games are dead, mobile games are the future was talked about and proven ToD was called a tad soon? If MMOs aren't going the way of the Dodo, or even subscription based games in the west, then a company like NCSOFT with their portfolio isn't in a bad position for future growth.
I'm grasping here. Maybe it was just generally positive industry news related to the KGC that raised interest in all the game company stocks there.
Isnt the Financial Quarter ending early November? Also i just wanted to point out that i was watching the stocks when Wildstars delay was confirmed which occured i think several days prior to the earning release. Interestingly the stocks didnt move. So honestly not sure how closely investors are even eyeing wild star yet. Same thing when they announced the payment model, no movement. Which for me was the biggest news ever, had it gone free to play i would have thought investors would have gotten nervous.
If an analyst can call it then they get more people paying him to get his incites ahead of the curve.
I tend to agree fatherXmas, we should see some pullback before the next earnings release, but after this unexpected rise, and the fact there has been another rise this morning so far leads me to think this quarter could turn out alot better than expected.
Im not even sure blade and souls will be released in china this quarter which i was hoping to support prices. Should be an Interesting 4th Quarter.
Another nice typo; I think NCSoft may well have been paying Daewoo's guy for some incites last year.
Yeh its crazy, if you go to a site called Gametrics(in korean), it gives you a fantastic breakdown of the top 10 games being played. LOL is doing crazy well, wow and SC2/SC1 arnt even on the list anymore interestingly.
Hmm, so you suspect NCSOFT will start losing a bit of ground over the next few quarters huh? Cant say i fault that logic if we dont get B&S in china anytime soon.
What did you mean by "For 4Q they are expecting a big kick in L1 sales due to the cash shop and B&S recovering a bit in Korea" Kick as in bad or good :P?
Yeh its a shame about the pay wall thing. Even worse non koreans cant sign up for their services without a citizens code. Kinda lame.Yeah heard about that change. Back when I was in Korea, the game cafes were the hot spot for many soldiers. No citizen code needed then. Times seemed to have changed.
The citizen code is so age can be verified since they passed a law that kicks 18 and under off all online games, including consoles, from midnight to 8am. And I think the current government is looking to expand it to 21 and under starting at 10pm. And they were looking to tax online game companies to fund internet addiction centers.hey politicians are like soap operas. different language but same plot.
"Think of the children" works for politicians world over I guess.
hey politicians are like soap operas. different language but same plot.
But the Spanish ones have so much more cleavage.indeed
3rd quarter numbers are up ... FINALLY!
Short version, down, down, down. Sales down quarter over quarter and year over year, same with profits.
All titles had lower sales except B&S which had good numbers due to a major update, if I followed Google Translate, was woefully late enough that the devs publicly apologized.
Lineage - down 26.5% QoQ but up 62.7% YoY
Lineage 2 - down 8.7% QoQ, down 1.8% YoY
Aion - down 2.8% QoQ, down 16.1% YoY
B&S - up 43.5% QoQ, down 37.8% YoY
GW2 - down 15.3% QoQ, down 46.6% YoY
Other - up 26.0% QoQ, up 67.6% YoY
Royalties - down 24.4% QoQ, down 34.0% YoY
Overall sales, down 11.6% QoQ, down 6.8% YoY
They blame the drop in royalties to Lineage in Taiwan and Aion in China. Also "Other" (I assume mainly their new mobile games) had higher sales than Lineage 2.
That's one half of the equation, the other half, expenses went up. Culprits include higher royalties to the baseball league, more marketing for Wildstar, costs associated to the new building being finished and relocating to it.
Expenses up 7.1% QoQ, but down 4.4% YoY.
Which combine leads to profits down 23.1% QoQ and down 44.2% YoY.
So since the last report the stock climbed back above 200,000 KrW. As of this moment the stock price is meandering around 208,500 which is where it closed yesterday. No real big moves either way yet.
As for company news, the last closed but non-DB wipe closed beta is going on in China with the open beta soon to follow. They have a Korean female idol group heavily promoting the game in China. However it looks that the game will be F2P with a F2P style cash shop which I assume they are use to in China.
just 4-5 more years of this and maybe they will have to sell our game!No, they never will. The stars will fade and the universe will die of heat death before they ever consider loosing it from their bony grasp. That's why SCoRE is so important - we will never, ever get the game back except by reverse engineering and community servers. Count on it. There is no Option B here. There are no circumstances under which NCSoft will ever sell CoH. Because they're evil and uncaring - end of story.
Next year in Paragon!
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Hey guys. Any of you know how to download the conference call for the earnings report?
For the life of me i cant seem to get that damn thing to either download or stream.
Cheers
Im also suprised that the stock prices havnt tumbled yet. We had a worse result than last quarter, and the response to that release was pretty immediate.
Any ideas why investors arnt selling up in anticipation for the likely poor report coming in Feb?
Stocks Just shot up again. I see no fundamental reason to think the stocks should be gaining momentum. What do you guys think? Are the markets looking forward and seeing the stocks as oversold?probably normal fluctuation.
Maybe, it just seems very interesting that alot of volatility is occuring after such a average quarterly report. I could expect a hold or a sell off, but a consolidated buy signal suggests something more, if you look at the trend over the past year, ncsoft is experiencing unusual buying over the last month. I suspect a sell off soon to pull the stocks back within its trend line, but if that doesnt occur, then i suspect we wont see one any time soon.Indeed.
Heh, seems as if then the price is practically up to chance :P Maybe its wishful thinking to think there is a method in the madness :P
There is a method, but lot of chance too.
There will be the basics out there for the method part but not too advanced because if everyone knew too much, then lot of wall streeters would be out of a job. :p
My faves...Love! :)
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Anything that could hurt NCSoft even a little is a good thing.
However, gaming companies have argued such a bill would be a death sentence for the industry. In a statement, the Korea Internet and Digital Entertainment Association, which represents game companies said: "The 100,000 people employed in the game industry are not drugmakers."
So if the South Korea does pass this law. Then maybe companies like NCSoft would be interested in the western markets again. Unless the EU and America decide that video games are a virtual Meth lab. LOL!
Another large factor that applies really only to South Korea is the gaming culture in that country. Some gamers, particularly in Starcraft, are like professional athletes, at least in terms of salary and popularity. It's not a perfect analogy, but it is something kind of unique to that country. The likelihood of a law like that being even proposed in the US or EU is slim to none, unless we see a rash of kids in either region dying of malnutrition because they're gaming to the exclusion of all else. You'll notice that any news piece about truly bad behavior focuses on someone in SK or China.
On the other hand, I will always rub my hands together and cackle like a bad cartoon villain at the mere prospect of fiscal harm coming to NC$oft, because @#$% them...
I've noticed alot more of hacking, bot post, cyber crime and cyber scams than usual recently. It seems to be mostly aimed at the US but has went up globally. I wonder if the stock market drop is related. Best to be paranoid on the web for a while
But PvP tournaments in MMOs can be entertaining to watch. The original GW had a couple of PvP tournaments in Asia featuring teams from various countries competing. But now the new thing is MOBAs like LoL or DOTA 2. It's not just Starcraft 1 + 2 anymore
Last I heard it got approval to be discussed in committee. I have no idea how their national legislature is set up but it sounds a lot like having the pre weekly status meeting meeting to determine what will be discussed in the weekly status meeting which will have a post weekly status meeting meeting to discuss what was decided on the weekly status meeting.I wonder if they'll ever have pre/post weekly meetings discussing how much money their pre/post weekly meetings waste and how they can increase the waste generated by useless meetings.
Couldn't happen to nicer people! ;)
The entire Korean online gaming industry? What did they do?Collateral damage. As long as NCSoft was hurt, even briefly, I cheer.
The changes to SK gaming could have interesting repercussions. If it severely damages the income of SK gaming companies, they may be forced to focus on their overseas branches. NC$oft has a bad habit of ignoring and neglecting their western branch. Now they might need to focus on it more to offset losses. Maybe they're even thinking of resurrecting COH. Not likely, but severe losses can make a company try desperate things. Their bad actions of the past may still be too bad an image to fix though. The irony ;D
Oh, please don't let it be them that revives the game. PLEASE NO.Unless they sell it, no one else could, unfortunately. Not that it will actually happen, they love our pain far too much.
Unless they sell it, no one else could, unfortunately. Not that it will actually happen, they love our pain far too much.Nah. Setting aside that the NCsoft management lineup has changed up a fair bit since the shutdown, they've never really cared about making CoH fans suffer. Unless there's money in it, and the opposite is rather obviously true. (Not that it's likely to have lost them a very large amount of money, but it's still a net negative.) i wouldn't be surprised if there were at least a couple people on the NCsoft board currently who didn't look at CoH and wonder "Why the hell did we shut this down?" in private at the very least when considering how big superhero properties have become in international pop culture as well as the advantages to maintaining goodwill and a foothold in more markets outside Korea. CoH may not have been a cash cow, but it was profitable even without much of a promotional budget or efforts to tie into the popularity of superheroes.
The company is made up of an ever-changing group of people all hoping to make money, not some eldritch entity that feeds on emotions.Considering that their behavior is indistinguishable from an eldritch entity that feeds on emotions, I believe my confusion can be forgiven.
In any event as long as they can get a deal that they're happy with i'm pretty confident NCsoft would much rather sell CoH and make money off it than hold onto it and get nothing. The company is made up of an ever-changing group of people all hoping to make money, not some eldritch entity that feeds on emotions. While emotions like embarrassment might figure into being reluctant to go back on a decision money and changes in the management lineup do a lot to offset that.
Considering that their behavior is indistinguishable from an eldritch entity that feeds on emotions, I believe my confusion can be forgiven.
Actually, if the efforts by Ironwolf's friends/contacts eventually come out in our favor, I have no further quarrel with NCSoft.
No intention of ever trying out any of their other games (once burned, twice shy, and I can't trust that they'll be there tomorrow), but I will wish them no further ill if we get our city back.
Don't worry, investors and analysts can be a pessimistic lot. Even KDB Daewoo, one of their biggest cheerleaders were unhappy with NCSOFT in a report a month ago, asking for a dividend boost and cut their target to 220,000 KrW. That's below where the stock price was 5 months ago instead of being absurdly unheard of, but still 40+% higher than today.
I thought KDB Daewoo's projections of nearly 400k were either an attempt at comedy or someone trolling the regulators.
Actually, if the efforts by Ironwolf's friends/contacts eventually come out in our favor, I have no further quarrel with NCSoft.
No intention of ever trying out any of their other games (once burned, twice shy, and I can't trust that they'll be there tomorrow), but I will wish them no further ill if we get our city back.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/10/03/ask-massively-dancing-on-wildstars-grave/
NCsoft Stock is down to its lowest in years. Even lower than after the close. Is wildstar tanking that badly?
Yes. The game underwent server mergers right off the bat, the higher-ups at Carbine have mostly all left or are leaving, and additional content and even holiday content has all been cancelled. Between Wildstar's performance and NCSoft's horrible reputation in NA and EU as "Keeeeeel youuuuuu naowwwwwww!" knee-jerk game killers, I'm surprised their stocks aren't even lower. I mean, how many old-school gamers would have loved Wildstar's raid-centric, harcore attitude, but wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole because it's published by the NCSoft? The old-school crowd are the ones that have been through Tabula Rasa's closing, CoX's closing, or may have played the other games they've shut down (not to mention have probably tried Aion and Lineage 2, which are so overrun by gold farmers, botters and lag they're practically unplayable and have been since their betas).
Wildstar wasn't really focused on Endgame though, that was their problem. They promised massive amounts of content, and a team that would only work on endgame content. Then released a game that only had 3 dungeons 1-50. A handful of annoying skirmishes that felt like a disorganized mess. And 1 25 man raid. Then they release a patch 1 month into, and it has nothing worth while in it, then another patch. Again nothing worth while in it. They released a swimming pool after promising an ocean. Which is a shame I really, really enjoyed my time in Wildstar. And I think it had the potential to be a great game but it had the smallest amount of content I have ever seen in an MMO.
Yes. The game underwent server mergers right off the bat, the higher-ups at Carbine have mostly all left or are leaving, and additional content and even holiday content has all been cancelled. Between Wildstar's performance and NCSoft's horrible reputation in NA and EU as "Keeeeeel youuuuuu naowwwwwww!" knee-jerk game killers, I'm surprised their stocks aren't even lower. I mean, how many old-school gamers would have loved Wildstar's raid-centric, harcore attitude, but wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole because it's published by the NCSoft? The old-school crowd are the ones that have been through Tabula Rasa's closing, CoX's closing, or may have played the other games they've shut down (not to mention have probably tried Aion and Lineage 2, which are so overrun by gold farmers, botters and lag they're practically unplayable and have been since their betas).
This is the main reason I think NCSoft hasn't just slammed the door in Team Hail Mary's face-- they could desperately use some positive press, and it would go at least a ways toward restoring some good faith with MMO gamers in general. After all, even if someone hadn't played NCSoft's other MMOs and wanted to play Wildstar, what would happen when their guildies or family and friends who had been victimized by NC in the past resoundingly said "No way?" Of course, that one person would probably move to whatever MMO all those other people they wanted to play with were playing instead.
The President of Carbine is NOT stepping down due to anything game related... let's make that perfectly clear. He has had A LOT of personal issues including a lot of family members dying in the past year as well as being diagnosed and treated for cancer himself. He truly is stepping down to focus on life...instead of work. If you were a cancer survivor...or know one... you would know that when someone goes through such a traumatic experience...and survives...they tend to re-evaluate what they are doing with their lives....
They canceled the holiday content because... they are focusing on the current game and a pretty fair amount of bugs. Trust me there are times I wish Cryptic/Paragon had done the same thing. There were bugs in CoH that had been known issues for years, but went ignored in lieu of new content.
FYI I am not a WildStar player or fanboi, but I wanted to clarify a few things you stated. I have never played WildStar... I was going to but friends told me how buggy it was...and I decided not to waste my money. Maybe if they do some significant fixes to these bugs... I MIGHT try it out. I am not really an MMO person... the only MMO I ever liked was CoH.
They canceled the holiday content because... they are focusing on the current game and a pretty fair amount of bugs. Trust me there are times I wish Cryptic/Paragon had done the same thing. There were bugs in CoH that had been known issues for years, but went ignored in lieu of new content.
Unless you're talking major game breaking bugs, New Content is always going to be a priority for the simple reason that it's what draws in and keeps players. There's also the problem that a lot of the bugs the devs could never figure out what was causing them. The code base was simply too much of a mess, and a lot of it was undocumented.
When you're talking new content keep in mind as well that bug fixing is a programmer issue, so that does leave your art department, SFX, writers, and everyone who's not hunting bugs to work on new content.
I'll only say CO's dev team(originally cryptic, to) had done that and ultimately made the mistake of just introducing more bugs and further imbalancing the game. The sore lack of new content has ultimately doomed CO.
Buy all the stocks! Corporate takeover!
... how much are they right now?
I just never got what was supposed to be so appealing about WildStar. :roll:
WoW ... In spaaaaaaaaaace! With fluffy bunny girls.
And maybe some more recent tech to make it more action oriented.
You don't need to buy all the shares to have controlling interest in a company. Usually 30-35% would be enough.
WoW ... In spaaaaaaaaaace! With fluffy bunny girls.
And maybe some more recent tech to make it more action oriented.
That's still in the area of 900 Million. :P
Quick! To Kickstarter!
or to the banks or selling shares for a shell corporation with the intent to buy controlling interest in ncsoft.
And from what I heard the NA/EU version of B&S will be based on the edited Chinese version and not the Korean/Japan lewd and lascivious version.Ugh. Not that I was inclined to try it anyway, but I despise that kind of "kid-friendly" censorship on general principles. If there's an NC-17 version of the game out there, then darn it, that's what gamers should get, not some Disneyfied knock-off version.
Ugh. Not that I was inclined to try it anyway, but I despise that kind of "kid-friendly" censorship on general principles. If there's an NC-17 version of the game out there, then darn it, that's what gamers should get, not some Disneyfied knock-off version.Personally, I like the look of the Chinese version. The lemon boobs are gone, for one thing. I don't know about you, but I don't know ANY women who have giant lemons stuffed under their shirts.
Personally, I like the look of the Chinese version. The lemon boobs are gone, for one thing. I don't know about you, but I don't know ANY women who have giant lemons stuffed under their shirts.That bad? Ouch. Maybe the edited version would be better.
The outfits in the Korean version make no sense, to fight in or not. Who wears copious amounts of material on their arms and legs but leaves a big hole cut out on their torso leaving just underwear (late-night lingerie aside)? It just looks... bizarre.I've always said it was easy to spot the 14 year-old boys in CoH - they had female avatars dressed in bikinis with max-slider breasts. ;D
A tiny bikini that their boobs would pop out of at the slightest movement also seems to be a very poor choice to try to fight in.
Maybe in the expansion they'll all get slaughtered by the invading hordes wearing practical armor.
Personally, I like the look of the Chinese version. The lemon boobs are gone, for one thing. I don't know about you, but I don't know ANY women who have giant lemons stuffed under their shirts.
I do.....but they all died in battle because their armor was TOTALLY ineffective. And only covered the areas a swim suit would.And again, I'm reminded of this hilarious exchange from Robotech:
I feel sorry for Carbine Studios. KDB Daewoo is projecting only 1/2 the income 4th quarter that WildStar had in the 3rd. Ouch. Good thing that KDB's estimates can be wildly inaccurate.
NCSOFT announced an FPS called Project HON. Looks cool. Sadly it'll likely not be available outside of Korea for a time. Here's a link to the trailers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV5OxuihF3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvO8UPoy8fU
I notice a lot of devs and publishers are going into MMOFPSs, or hybrid MMOs with shooting. There's Destiny (half MMORPG/half FPS), Blizzard's new 2015 game "Overwatch" (half MOBA/half FPS), etc. I think the MMORPG genre is just totally oversaturated, and in NCSoft's case, they have such a bad reputation for being game killers that people avoid their MMORPGs over that as well.
What they really need to do is learn how to run their games properly and how to respect their customers. Their players are not brainless savants who will just blindly shut one game launcher down for the last time as they shutter a game, and then open up the next launcher as NC launches a new title.
I disagree with the notion that NCSOFT are game killers. With the exception of CoH, every other western MMO they killed performed poorly under anybody's criteria and compared to their home titles in Korea, vastly under performed. GW2 is still going strong, with income in 3rd quarter nearly twice CoH's last reported entire year. WildStar may still be successful now that management has been beaten about the head and shoulders that Raids and hard core content doesn't convince players to pay a monthly fee. They canceled their holiday events (Xmas is cancelled and so was Halloween) to work on revamping the play and rewards as well as stomping out bugs.
I agree that MMORPGs are a saturated market. There's WoW and everyone else. But it's like 500 channels and nothing's on. Nearly all are hybrid/F2P which means we have enough annoying things that you will feel compelled to subscribe monthly, unless you have the patience of a saint. Or they are P2W kind of F2P like ArcheAge.
I agree Wildstar may be doing great for now. PvP issues remain unsolved. And trying to become another WoW in my opinion is a mistake. They will need some yrs before they can actually be competition for wow. WS concentrate to much in raids, and group content, even tho they know 60% of their population are solo players. Lvl 50 tunnels into 5 man missions, and 20 man raids. Not to mention the tedious task of atonement before you can raid. Drop 4 rewards are mostly for those to team up, once again forgetting the solo player and the people who enjoy teaming in little groups of 2-3 ppl.
Im currently playing BnS on a russian server.
You can play the censored or the uncensored version. I use the uncensored Version, but right now, the differences arent so great.
It is really good looking, and has a nice combat system, but. its a railroad with one questline for all chars. I enjoy the quest, but i dont think there is much to hold me in game, when its done.
At least you can Glide, and thats very nice with the scenery :)
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Lydia Frost MM
https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2015/02/133_172863.html$40 million isn't a lot if they become THE way to handle all online transactions in gaming in Asia.
looks like ncsoft payed a lot for a online payment company.
http://massivelyop.net/2015/02/12/nexon-pressures-ncsoft-as-largest-shareholder/Wow. Indeed, could this actually work out to be in our favor? I'm kinda doubting that CoH currently counts as a "core asset."
What are the odds that the CoX IP is one of the 'non-core' assets that Nexon wants NCSoft to sell?
Dare we dream?
Wow. Indeed, could this actually work out to be in our favor? I'm kinda doubting that CoH currently counts as a "core asset."
I'm honestly unsure who to root for here, but as NCSoft is actually dealing with us now on the IP sale, I'm inclined to think the devil we know is better than the one we don't.
Now I find this interesting. Ra-Ra analyst KDB Daewoo kept their mouths shut until today to discuss last month's 4th quarter and yearly numbers. I bet they were keeping their heads down until the Nexon/NCSOFT fight got resolved or at least reached a stalemate.
There recomendations, buy low in the first half of 2015, sell high during the 2nd half.
Obviously we don't see that here in the US so no reason to expect any ban there on blind-boxes peculating over here.Alas...
It may simply become illegal in South Korea or restricted on how much can be bought per account per month. Korea has mandatory exclusion of minors during certain hours, which they were talking about expanding. Obviously we don't see that here in the US so no reason to expect any ban there on blind-boxes peculating over here.
1Q 2015 results.
Year over Year, total income up 5.6% for the quarter. Profits down 2.6%.
Lineage up 61.0%
Blade & Soul up 39.2% due to strong Taiwan sales.
WildStar looks like it's on life support with only 2,593 million KrW in sales for the quarter. That puts subscriptions at roughly 50,000- 60,000. I can see them giving them a full year but unless there's a F2P option in the near future it looks as if Carbine fumbled badly at judging what MMO players will pay for. It's still doing better than Tabula Rosa did. But we'll see if Carbine has any white knights in Seoul to keep the game going.
For once NCSOFT stock surged on the news, near a 52 week high at 219,500 a share (~$200).