Author Topic: NCSoft Stockwatch  (Read 719522 times)

Technerdoc

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #460 on: December 03, 2012, 09:37:09 PM »
No I'm not a clairvoyant but even when, maybe Disney buy the IP, without a developer team it only makes sense when they  re-hired them and this is not sure that they really come back. Or they buy it to make a part 2, but why buy City of Heroes when they have a much better known Marvel franchise and can just use this for a game? It's hard to belive that they really do this, or anyone else and brings the money and do this gamble.

The problem is with the part 2, that part 1 have so many content that people will always miss something. The game is old, the market has changed and maybe they wanted to change the gameplay to reach more people. For example I don't like Guild Wars 2, but millons are playing it and like it. I don't know why, the reviews was great but I think the game is absolutly boring. It looks like that I'm a part of a minority group and the same can happen to City of Heroes 2. Everyone said about the new copy protection sytems for example on the PC they don't buy this game, but then an Assassins Greed was one of the top sellers list anyway. People forget such things fast and here in Germany no one cares about what happend here. There was a news about the shutdown of course and with 2 messages under it...
   

unladenswallow

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
  • "Are you suggesting Coconuts Migrate?"
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #461 on: December 03, 2012, 09:37:49 PM »
Dear stereotypical people: If stereotypes are wrong, please do your part to stop proving them right."

Well stereotypes are almost always based on a partial truth that is viewed through biased eyes. When I was in China I was frequently told in general conversation by people I had just met that I was fat. As if I had forgotten this somehow. the reality is there are very few fat people amongst the middle to lower income populace which is the majority of the country's population. It's not something they normally see. They are also more straight forward and blunt in conversations by western standards. All of these factors lead to me hearing "Ah, you are fat!" quite often. This is why many tourists who are largely unaware of the culture assume that people from China are rude and from their set of social guidelines and ignorance of aspects of Chinese culture they are. You can only make assessments base on the body of knowledge you have. I was able to take all of this into consideration when this happened but because of the social norms I grew up with I still felt as if it were rude even though I fully understood the social mechanics behind it.

I understand and even share much of the concerns many people have about being "xenophob-esque " but even with that you have to take it with a grain of salt. I'm sure similar cultural factors figure in to how NC Soft has treated us and they have been discussed at great length on at least one other thread. As a community I think we have done our cultural homework well enough that we should be able to make clear references to their actions without having to constantly adding apologetic cultural caveats in our posts when we describe the way they treated us as contemptible or in this case that their cultural norms would not allow them to make a satisfactory apology to us even if they wanted to. Given the great deal of attention we have given this issue I wouldn't think that addressing such issues directly were xenophobic but just what dwtruducken said it was addressing an unpleasant truth.

Sorry if this post seems a bit of an overstatement or possibly superfluous but I find cultural/social issues interesting and thought this might help.
"The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." -Thomas Paine

Undercat

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #462 on: December 03, 2012, 10:43:14 PM »
Remember that, as things stand right now, there is nothing more that NCSoft can do to us.

Wrong. They can sue every site that harbors detailed content about the game, including this one, for exceeding the provisions of fair use. Similarly, they could force Youtube to remove many of the videos derived from the game's content.

Of course, no sane company would dare sue their fans for making promotional use of their intellectual property...but I think we can pretty safely conclude that they don't give a flying fart about the CoX property itself at this point. If you step on the tiger's tail hard enough, you might be quite surprised just how hard he can bite.

And if anyone steps outside the facts and wanders into speculation in their attacks, NCsoft might sue them for libel. Whether they win or not is almost irrelevant; they can drive you to bankruptcy before you even set foot in a courtroom. Being the subject of a lawsuit is not the kind of excitement any sane person should be looking for.

Think that other gaming communities will rally to your side if NCsoft starts playing hardball? Perhaps not, especially if NCsoft can make a cogent argument that you were attacking it mercilessly and they responded just to make it stop. If they put up with PR attacks for months, then finally clamp down, the group here might find itself in a very awkward position of being portrayed in the public eye as a collection of bitter extremists. The general public knows next to nothing of our plight. They don't know and they don't care. You shouldn't expect them to automatically take our side just because you feel we have been wronged, and make no mistake, I feel we have been wronged.

NCsoft did not close the game by credibly saying, "we're sorry, but we just can't afford to keep the game running...we really want this game to prosper, and we know how much you all love your home here, but there's not enough demand for it and we're losing money on it, so we can't continue." They couldn't say it. It wasn't true. What we received instead was an imperial dismissal: "We're done with you now, peasants. You don't factor into our plans any longer. Now go away before we set the guards upon you." Their intransigent refusal to negotiate a continuation of the game on other terms deprives them of the privilege to repudiate their initial dismissive impression.

I, too, think we're owed an apology as customers.

But if, once we receive any apology, we continue to drive the screws in, we would look mean and petty. Moreover, there's another thing to consider here: if NCsoft's PR firm---which is unquestionably monitoring the activities of this group, if for no other reason than to spot potential libel or outright copyright infringement---if they were to get the reasonable impression that there would be no benefit to having NCsoft relent, what do you suppose their recommendation would be? We are playing a political game here, folks, and we need to think like political animals.

In game theory, there is a rather interesting result from experimental automata on the prisoner's dilemma. It turns out that no program, regardless of sophistication, has been able to outdo the overall performance of an extremely simple agent---one that retaliates exactly once for every attack made upon it, but otherwise defaults to a position of unbroken trust. More aggressive retaliators tend to get into "scorched earth" exchanges with their opponents, while more forgiving agents get walked upon.

Making NCsoft uncomfortable is only half the battle. In order to induce them to sell, we have to convincingly demonstrate that the discomfort will stop when they acquiesce. If we cannot make that argument stick, this is all a waste of time. They, too, can take a hardline "screw them to death" position and curl up like a little turtle, refusing to sell the CoX IP until the copyright expires, at which point many of us will undoubtedly be dead...and finding a computer old enough to play this game might be difficult or impossible.

So you think everything will be peachy if we can just drive them into bankruptcy? If they reorganize, they can restructure their debts without liquidating most of their assets. I can assure you that no one here will be considered a creditor in any reorganization proceeding. Even if the IP is sold at that point, the purchaser may well be Asian and harbor their own resentments about the behavior of this group.

I'm not saying that I will ever personally buy another NCsoft product again, but I will make an effort to keep my mouth shut if they take their foot out of my ass. If we turn this into a racial and moral crusade of indignity, you can expect disaster to follow.

I prefer to play this game to win. If that means I have to cheer when they sell the IP, I will cheer. If it means I must smile and say "thank you," I will smile and say "thank you." What I think about their behavior personally doesn't matter to anyone but me. The game is worth more than my pride. I will do whatever I need to do to execute my aim, and my aim is to have them sell the rights to someone who cares.

Electric-Knight

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 297
  • E-K and Malfaz taking a break, drinking tea
    • www.pauldamonthomas.com
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #463 on: December 03, 2012, 11:59:33 PM »
I could prattle on about things I don't know and state guesses as facts and toss in a few (rather good) jokes that came to mind from other posts, but, instead...

How them stocks?
:D
--
"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever."
- Baron Munchausen

http://www.pauldamonthomas.com/

corvus1970

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 758
  • A true ruler is as moral as a Hurricane.
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #464 on: December 04, 2012, 12:02:34 AM »
Look, I just want an opportunity to use an image of Nelson Muntz at NCSoft's expense, is that so wrong? :D
... ^o^CORVUS^o^
"...if nothing we do matters, than all that matters is what we do."
http://corvus1970.deviantart.com/

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #465 on: December 04, 2012, 12:07:35 AM »
Nononono! I wanna hear the libelous, scandalous prattling!  :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

The Fifth Horseman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
  • Outside known realities.
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #466 on: December 04, 2012, 07:14:39 AM »
Gentlemen, I'm pleased to announce that the numbers are in red. The stock fell -1.86% since yesterday.
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

Electric-Knight

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 297
  • E-K and Malfaz taking a break, drinking tea
    • www.pauldamonthomas.com
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #467 on: December 04, 2012, 07:18:54 AM »
--
"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever."
- Baron Munchausen

http://www.pauldamonthomas.com/

healix

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,695
  • Every good friend was once a stranger
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #468 on: December 04, 2012, 07:24:24 AM »
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

corvus1970

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 758
  • A true ruler is as moral as a Hurricane.
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #469 on: December 04, 2012, 08:05:59 AM »
Gentlemen, I'm pleased to announce that the numbers are in red. The stock fell -1.86% since yesterday.

As promised!

... ^o^CORVUS^o^
"...if nothing we do matters, than all that matters is what we do."
http://corvus1970.deviantart.com/

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #470 on: December 04, 2012, 08:10:07 AM »
"...the numbers are in red."

Heh! November was a dreadful month for them. If December is equally bad, they'll be back where they were in 2007.

Investors and NCSoft are likely asking themselves why. Perhaps they should be asking instead why so many are cheering about it. I believe in the laws of karma, and having so many people justly angry at you is very bad karma. Moving on....

"Wrong. They can sue every site that harbors detailed content about the game, including this one, for exceeding the provisions of fair use. Similarly, they could force Youtube to remove many of the videos derived from the game's content."

True, but the data would simply resurface elsewhere.

I'm no lawyer. But I do know that in the US, verifiable cases of Internet libel go unpunished by the courts. There are simply too many unicorns for the courts to take such things seriously. Despite this, I do not advocate libel, but that we ought instead to simply say the truth about NCSoft as loudly as possible: NCSoft sucks.

They can attempt to take legal action against us for that, yes. As I said, I'm no lawyer, but I am military. And I know that a "formless" enemy like us is almost impossible to fight. We have no head to strike off, no heart to stab, we cannot be defeated if they attack. The worst they can do to us is to hoard the IP out of spite, and they will only succeed in this so long as Mr. Kim is in charge. Every fall in their stock brings him closer to ouster.

But we... we will never stop, not until they sell. And they cannot stop us, no matter what they do.

(I did raise the alarm against one possible endgame: deletion of the files. Other voices have convinced me that is not among Kim's options, thank heaven! I'm sure he'd do so with pleasure.)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 08:22:24 AM by Colette »

The Fifth Horseman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
  • Outside known realities.
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #471 on: December 04, 2012, 08:35:42 AM »
They can attempt to take legal action against us for that, yes. As I said, I'm no lawyer, but I am military. And I know that a "formless" enemy like us is almost impossible to fight. We have no head to strike off, no heart to stab, we cannot be defeated if they attack.
The worst thing they could do is cause us to disperse and act individually. That would make it impossible to call the campaign off, ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEImdPWgIGk

Quote
(I did raise the alarm against one possible endgame: deletion of the files. Other voices have convinced me that is not among Kim's options, thank heaven! I'm sure he'd do so with pleasure.)
Do not underestimate the power of human pettiness and spite.
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

Undercat

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #472 on: December 04, 2012, 12:05:20 PM »
I'm no lawyer. But I do know that in the US, verifiable cases of Internet libel go unpunished by the courts. There are simply too many (word substituted) for the courts to take such things seriously. Despite this, I do not advocate libel, but that we ought instead to simply say the truth about NCSoft as loudly as possible: NCSoft sucks.

To say "NCsoft sucks" is merely an opinion. I think it would be pretty unlikely to ever land you in court. I, too, am not an attorney, but I worked in publishing, marketing and advertising for over a decade and became pretty sensitive to legal issues that affected those trades. I wrote a large number of product reviews about professional media equipment, not all of which were especially flattering. My understanding of the general principles of libel law in this country, for all the little it may be worth, is that you typically need to make a damaging claim that is purported to be fact, but which is actually untrue, or make an especially vicious and unwarranted attack, in order to be successfully sued. While I don't doubt there may be special exceptions, truth and accuracy are normally considered privileged defenses in defamation cases; after all, if that were not the case, newspapers, magazines and television networks could be sued merely for publishing unflattering news about people or corporations. Fortunately things are not quite that bad. That's why I said "...if anyone steps outside the facts...."

I should probably underscore that opinions are not considered facts (a review is largely an opinion, after all), so provided it is clear you are making a subjective judgment, and you don't descend into outrageous invective, you're probably also safe in most jurisdictions. But don't construe that as legal advice by any means---as I said, I'm not an attorney or a scholar, and as far as I'm concerned, nothing is final until the Supreme Court says it is. On each specific case, at that. I've heard of some really outrageous suits. You take your chances anytime you assume an adversarial posture with anyone, that's the only thing I'm certain of, and it's what I'm trying to get across here.

Quote
But we... we will never stop, not until they sell.

No argument there. I say shine a spotlight on the turds...until they sell. But the impression I'm getting from some posters in various forum threads here is more akin to a call for unlimited war---a vindictive "no quarter" attitude that would persist long after NCsoft sold the IP, assuming they ever did. What motivation would NCsoft have to sell the IP if they didn't think their tormentors were ever going to go away? Who are we to demand unconditional surrender, then execute the defeated for "war crimes?" I chuckle at the very thought. We'll be plenty lucky enough if we can just get them to cough up the IP at all. Even if they were to go bankrupt and be liquidated instead of reorganized, there's no guarantee that the trustee (assuming that's how they do things there) would award the CoX IP to a party friendly to our cause.

All I'm saying is that we should attempt to play a politically savvy hand.

What I, personally, would like to see is for a large U.S. corporation to make a reasonable bid for the CoX assets and announce to us publicly that they did so. If NCsoft's executive management refuses the bid, which I sadly suspect they might do, then we can turn right around and take the issue to some of their shareholders. Let them start asking questions for us. Have them pester NCsoft's management to accept payment for a property that otherwise would simply rot in the ground. We, as individuals, are easy to ignore. Institutional investors are not as easy to ignore, even the smaller ones (since trading prices are determined at the margins). My goal would be to seed an atmosphere of "no confidence" within the NCsoft investor community, right up to Nexon, that leads to a serious dialog about what the CoX property is worth, and to good-faith negotiations about selling it. I honestly don't think that NCsoft's management is acting as a prudent fiduciary of their shareholder's interests at the moment.

I think Mercedes got us off to a very good start. If she doesn't have a nervous breakdown, I'm hopeful that we actually will win this war, even if NCsoft won the first skirmish by riding in with their gunship and blowing up Home-Tree.

Inkitgee

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Realignment!? But I am a HERO.
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #473 on: December 04, 2012, 01:35:12 PM »
I took a look at the stocks for myself and I couldn't stop myself from letting out a hearty chuckle.

Welp... all I can say is they did it to themselves.

 8)

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #474 on: December 04, 2012, 03:10:00 PM »
Very nice posts, Undercat. I agree whole-heartedly. There must be incentive for NCSoft to do as we want. If the pain won't stop, there's no incentive.

Given my own academic background, I was particularly amused by the (very accurate) explanation of prisoner's dilemma agents and the best winning strategy in a repeated-games scenario. I've written genetic algorithms that evolve this very behavior pattern as the optimum.

Illusionss

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #475 on: December 04, 2012, 03:20:44 PM »
"...the numbers are in red."

Heh! November was a dreadful month for them. If December is equally bad, they'll be back where they were in 2007.

Investors and NCSoft are likely asking themselves why. Perhaps they should be asking instead why so many are cheering about it. I believe in the laws of karma, and having so many people justly angry at you is very bad karma. Moving on....

Not to mention, the idea of being sued for libel - individually or as a group - for saying the equivalent of "NCSoft sucks!" would be the very definition of a stupid idea. I am not sure a US judge would even allow this to come to trial - it is the very definition of frivolous lawsuit.

Such a case would get media attention. Given their recent problems, do they need "People say NCSoft sucks! NCSoft strikes back legally! Pictures at eleven!" headlines, even if only online?

What if there were a trial! Enter a lot of evidence to the fact that indeed, NCSoft does "suck."  Even uninterested parties could examine the evidence, leading to a conclusion of "Yup... they really do suck." Reams, and reams and yet more reams of evidence regarding years of craptacular business practices. GENIUS IDEA!

TBH, NCSoft has way bigger fish to fry right now other than trying to legally shut down the internet because disgruntled ex-customers are saying - with justification - that they suck. The smart thing for them to do would be to give us what we want, and make this firestorm of negative PR go away, or at least die down a bit.

I don't think they're going to do that though: its all about saving face. Even if you're already tarred and feathered, we still got to deny reality and try to save nonexistannt face. That's ok, we got plenty more tar and plenty more feathers where those came from. I feel general delight that their stock has sunk yet further.

Nafaustu

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #476 on: December 04, 2012, 03:48:51 PM »
Relevant
This game is filled with tl;dr that has nothing to do with cats.   You're about to lose the internet's attention.   Or at the very least, we're slightly off-topic.   I think we had a separate legal doom thread where the greater majority of this was discussed.

Not Relevant
My general option is freedom, in case anyone cares.   If no one fights an outrageous act for fear of retribution then nothing will ever change and we may as well belly up like a terrified, submissive animal and consume all the corporate poo without so much as a glass of water to wash it down.  I'd like to buck that particular social trend in at least one aspect of my life.

Relevant Again
Do we have a general picture of Korea's overall markets today?   I'm not totally convinced Korea isn't crashing in general.   How steep is NCSoft's comparative curve?   I really have no idea how to search for this information; I avoid the stockmarket, in general, like the plague.

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #477 on: December 04, 2012, 04:20:19 PM »
"There must be incentive for NCSoft to do as we want."

Agreed. Pave your opponent's road to retreat with gold. However, while we could call off the formal campaign, I'm sure a quiet animosity would continue. NCSoft's burned their bridges in the west.

"...it is the very definition of frivolous lawsuit."

I have seen frivolous lawsuits used as a weapon by corporations to harass other corporations into bankruptcy. (A specific example: Marvel vs. Jim Shooter's Defiant Comics.) But we are not a corporation. We are formless, as I said. And trying to sue us from across the Pacific? Good luck with that.

..."we may as well belly up like a terrified, submissive animal and consume all the corporate poo...."

I agree that "learned helplessness" and withdrawal is a danger. This group fills me with hope that together we can teach corporations that they work for us, not the other way 'round.

"Filled with tl;dr..."

I would like to buck that particular social trend.

"Do not underestimate the power of human pettiness and spite."

Indeed. They might spread rumors they'd done so as a tactic to make us give up. I think that would only backfire on them. Just anticipating possible moves and countermoves....
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 04:26:47 PM by Colette »

Lucretia MacEvil

  • Guest
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #478 on: December 04, 2012, 05:22:04 PM »
"...the numbers are in red."

Heh! November was a dreadful month for them. If December is equally bad, they'll be back where they were in 2007.

Investors and NCSoft are likely asking themselves why.

If December is just as bad in spite of being Holiday Shopping Month....
Any investor who misses THAT red flag is definitely blind.

zybron

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 100
Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #479 on: December 04, 2012, 05:23:43 PM »
Do we have a general picture of Korea's overall markets today?   I'm not totally convinced Korea isn't crashing in general.   How steep is NCSoft's comparative curve?   I really have no idea how to search for this information; I avoid the stockmarket, in general, like the plague.

This post: http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5250.msg52124.html#msg52124 has a link to both the Korean stock exchange and NCSoft. They are not following a general Korean trend.

Here's a chart with NCSoft and the Korean composite index for direct comparison:
NCSoft and KOSPI