Author Topic: NCSoft Stockwatch  (Read 722952 times)

FatherXmas

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1520 on: January 31, 2013, 05:56:49 PM »
I'm not being Pro-NCsoft, I'm just trying to convey that stock price, while subject to public opinion to a degree, isn't something that will negatively impact the company.  It won't even go to 0 simply because there is a lower bound that's dictated by the actual company fundamentals like sales and profit.  It's what those 40 or so analysts say that will affect the stock price way more than a news piece about how they abandon entire communities of players with little or no explanation as to why.

Yesterday I was at the gym watch CNBC after the market closed and watched the second by second coverage of Facebook's stock price plumet in after hours trading when they released their earnings for the quarter and year (initial drop after hours was 8%).  Even though the quarter outperformed the consensus estimates it got hammered because one analyst downgraded from a buy to a hold (2 steps).  Just one guy even when others are raising their estimates on both sales and profits in 2013 for the company.  The stock is almost back up to where it closed yesterday.

The market moves in mysterious ways.  It doesn't always make sense and using it as a scoreboard for "pain inflicted" just doesn't make any sense.
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Colette

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1521 on: January 31, 2013, 06:09:11 PM »
How much longer you think before they will be under 130k won?"

Only about 8,000 to go.

"I'm not being Pro-NCsoft."

I doubt anybody here is.

Kosmos

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1522 on: January 31, 2013, 06:09:23 PM »
I'm not buying my party supplies just yet. But looking at the long-range graph, they have never been able to regain their peak share price of late 2011. Unless they have some ace up their sleeve, their current trajectory leads to buyout by mid-2014.

If NCSoft goes belly-up, how much would we need to ensure we can buy CoH at the liquidation auction? We'd need to rent or buy a server too....

Pure fantasy I'm afraid. If the stock craters and, say, Nexon decides to cut their losses and sell their stock, who do you think will be first in line to buy it back?

JaguarX

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1523 on: January 31, 2013, 06:14:24 PM »
I'm not being Pro-NCsoft, I'm just trying to convey that stock price, while subject to public opinion to a degree, isn't something that will negatively impact the company.  It won't even go to 0 simply because there is a lower bound that's dictated by the actual company fundamentals like sales and profit.  It's what those 40 or so analysts say that will affect the stock price way more than a news piece about how they abandon entire communities of players with little or no explanation as to why.

Yesterday I was at the gym watch CNBC after the market closed and watched the second by second coverage of Facebook's stock price plumet in after hours trading when they released their earnings for the quarter and year (initial drop after hours was 8%).  Even though the quarter outperformed the consensus estimates it got hammered because one analyst downgraded from a buy to a hold (2 steps).  Just one guy even when others are raising their estimates on both sales and profits in 2013 for the company.  The stock is almost back up to where it closed yesterday.

The market moves in mysterious ways.  It doesn't always make sense and using it as a scoreboard for "pain inflicted" just doesn't make any sense.

basically.

FatherXmas

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1524 on: January 31, 2013, 06:38:32 PM »
Pure fantasy I'm afraid. If the stock craters and, say, Nexon decides to cut their losses and sell their stock, who do you think will be first in line to buy it back?

Their CEO.  He gets back to 25% ownership and made a nice profit to boot.

How much longer you think before they will be under 130k won?"

Only about 8,000 to go.

"I'm not being Pro-NCsoft."

I doubt anybody here is.

I don't think it will go much lower before the numbers come out.  I think larger stockholders are "placing their bets" by either selling off because they expect it to go down or buying because they expect it to go up. 

The last four years they've had annual sales of 346.8 (billion KrW) in 2008; 634.7 in 2009; 655.9 in 2010; 608.9 in 2011.  So far in 2012 they have had sales of 470.2.  Now NCsoft was hoping for 800 in 2012 which is laughable, it would be miraculous if they hit 700.  However surpassing the 2009 number is in the realm of possibility.

Of course the great stock seer (tongue firmly in cheek), KDB Daewoo Securities, is predicting that NCsoft will hit 745 with GW2 bringing in a whopping 118 in sales during the 4th quarter (they only brought in 46 the quarter before).  They also see a big bounce in Lineage sales (from 38 to 63) while Aion, Lineage II and B&S remain flat relative to the third quarter.  That's an awful lot of eggs in GW2's basket and I can't see how they could hit that number.

This is an analyst who once had the target price at 600,000 for 2012.  Their current target price is 280,000 for 2013.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 07:13:41 PM by FatherXmas »
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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1525 on: January 31, 2013, 07:57:10 PM »
At the risk of being buried in information, seeing as none of that makes any sense to me, do you have any sites a novice could go to where they could learn what all that means?

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1526 on: January 31, 2013, 08:24:44 PM »
Yesterday I was at the gym watch CNBC after the market closed and watched the second by second coverage of Facebook's stock price plumet in after hours trading when they released their earnings for the quarter and year (initial drop after hours was 8%).  Even though the quarter outperformed the consensus estimates it got hammered because one analyst downgraded from a buy to a hold (2 steps).  Just one guy even when others are raising their estimates on both sales and profits in 2013 for the company.  The stock is almost back up to where it closed yesterday.

See, this is exactly why I have always felt that the Unity Rally could have been responsible for that one temporary decline in stocks (that just happened to start the Monday after that weekend). These knee-jerk reactions are unbelievable sometimes. It's like some kind of 'shellshocked' person diving into his basement every time there's a gentle breeze, thinking he's about to get hammered by a tornado.

srmalloy

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1527 on: January 31, 2013, 08:30:08 PM »
Ladies and Gents, NCSoft stock is at a new 52-week low (or it was a few minutes ago). They are currently down 6000 from the previous day's trading start.

Ghu, but the six-month view of their stock prices over at Reuters looks pretty...  (defaults to 3-month view; go up and click on '6 mos' under the row of blue buttons)

Although I'm not sure that NCSoft's decision to shutter City of Heroes wasn't just another set of nails in the coffin -- if you look at the two-year view it's pretty clear that they've been on a long-term slide since October of 2011; a longer view shows their stock price at a pretty steady climb up to that point, and a steady decline since then. There are two rallies that level off and decline again, then a third that -- almost perfectly timed to the Unity rally -- doesn't even bother leveling off before doing a split-S and taking off for the ground. It looks to me as if NCSoft has been mismanaged for going on two years now, and the closure of City of Heroes is only one symptom of that.


FatherXmas

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1528 on: January 31, 2013, 10:03:41 PM »
Ghu, but the six-month view of their stock prices over at Reuters looks pretty...  (defaults to 3-month view; go up and click on '6 mos' under the row of blue buttons)

Although I'm not sure that NCSoft's decision to shutter City of Heroes wasn't just another set of nails in the coffin -- if you look at the two-year view it's pretty clear that they've been on a long-term slide since October of 2011; a longer view shows their stock price at a pretty steady climb up to that point, and a steady decline since then. There are two rallies that level off and decline again, then a third that -- almost perfectly timed to the Unity rally -- doesn't even bother leveling off before doing a split-S and taking off for the ground. It looks to me as if NCSoft has been mismanaged for going on two years now, and the closure of City of Heroes is only one symptom of that.

And this goes back to the fact the stock skyrocket to levels that the company fundamentals couldn't support.  Someone, analysts likely, got it in their collective heads that the stock was going from 50,000 in 2008 to "infinity and beyond" once the Aion numbers came out.  I guess the logic was if Aion's success boosted sales numbers by 50%, the new MMOs under production that will be coming any (years) day now would do the same thing.  That's how Daewoo could even suggest a target price of 600,000.  Oddly looking at their old NCsoft reports going back to 2003, their target price guesses were more reasonable and their future estimates of sales and earnings were a lot more accurate, usually guessing low of all things.  Now it's almost like they are betting on a long shot because Vinny is coming to collect an overdue "loan" and he accepts only cash or kneecaps.

Now going back to Daewoo's early coverage of NCsoft did afford me a look of what happened when Lineage II came out.  The stock doubled in a two to three week period to the point they did a 3 for 1 split in July 2003 to bring the price down from 250,000 to something more affordable.  The sudden boost may have been the result of Daewoo and other analysts setting their TP in the 250,000 range just before the the stock spiked as they all went bullish on the stock.  However the stock never really went anywhere for the next 4 plus years as NA and European sales of Lineage and Lineage II didn't add significantly more sales while their western titles while acclaimed, weren't huge successes relative to their two main MMOs.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 11:06:59 PM by FatherXmas »
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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1529 on: January 31, 2013, 10:23:04 PM »
Got to say FatherXmas, i really appreciate all of the information that you put up here - i even feel that i may be learning a thing or two.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1530 on: February 01, 2013, 01:19:35 AM »
She's still taking on water.  Man the pumps!

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1531 on: February 01, 2013, 03:55:53 AM »
Father Xmas, I think you've implied that unless they have some huge expenses...like the new HQ they are building in a very pricy section of Seoul...plus a downturn in actual money being taken in, even the stock price dropping into the basement won't wreck the company because they supposedly have some big cash reserves they haven't spent.

The only thing I am interested in is how to get them to turn loose of the IP.
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FatherXmas

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1532 on: February 01, 2013, 04:38:10 AM »
Father Xmas, I think you've implied that unless they have some huge expenses...like the new HQ they are building in a very pricy section of Seoul...plus a downturn in actual money being taken in, even the stock price dropping into the basement won't wreck the company because they supposedly have some big cash reserves they haven't spent.

The only thing I am interested in is how to get them to turn loose of the IP.

They've already made their money off the stock.  The stock price crashing is bad for the stock holders but not NCsoft's finances one bit.  All the stock holders can do is try to change up the board of directors who then could change up the senior management.

As for their new building, they started that back in 2010.  As for cost it's partially subsidized because their current building is in ... wait for it ... Gangnam (if you want to talk about pricy section of Seoul).  So to pull a company from such a high prestige area is going to require ... an incentive.  The new building is in relatively new city, a planned from scratch city that broke ground in 2001, just outside of Seoul, a "new" silicon valley for South Korea's biggest names in high tech.  The city itself looks like someone there really liked SimCity 4. 

Sadly the financing for the city center, called Alpha Dome City, has been reduced so this vision



isn't going to happen.  At least they dream big over there.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 05:05:24 AM by FatherXmas »
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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1533 on: February 01, 2013, 06:16:04 AM »
hmm, well with ncsofts crazy way of doing business i wouldnt doubt it if they actually attempted to pull that off

and yes i agree it does look like something out of simcity

FatherXmas

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1534 on: February 01, 2013, 08:01:15 AM »
hmm, well with ncsofts crazy way of doing business i wouldnt doubt it if they actually attempted to pull that off

and yes i agree it does look like something out of simcity

No that was the idea for Pangyo's city center.  NCsoft just has a building with a spiffy little park over in the R&D park.  I'm guessing that picture is around 9-12 months old.  Now zoom out and pan to the right and tell me that it doesn't look like SimCity with all the apartment complexes.
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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1535 on: February 01, 2013, 12:05:57 PM »
If I hadn't already been told better I'd swear that was a screenshot of simcity 4 with some custom content added.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1536 on: February 01, 2013, 02:47:10 PM »
Father Xmas, I think you've implied that unless they have some huge expenses...like the new HQ they are building in a very pricy section of Seoul...plus a downturn in actual money being taken in, even the stock price dropping into the basement won't wreck the company because they supposedly have some big cash reserves they haven't spent.

The only thing I am interested in is how to get them to turn loose of the IP.
The stock plummet only hurts those who own it. This includes some of those responsible for the decision-making, so it's good in that light, but even if the stock dropped to "people are paying to get it off their portfolio," the company could run just fine. Not a dime of the money that's measuring the value of their stock is actually going into the company coffers nor supporting a single jot of their operating budget. Not unless they release new stock to the public, diluting the shares that are already out there.

So the only way we're going to get them to turn loose the IP is if we can get the stock prices to be embarrassing and make those who hold them and make decisions think and hope that releasing it would reduce the embarrassment.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1537 on: February 01, 2013, 02:49:55 PM »
No that was the idea for Pangyo's city center.  NCsoft just has a building with a spiffy little park over in the R&D park.  I'm guessing that picture is around 9-12 months old.  Now zoom out and pan to the right and tell me that it doesn't look like SimCity with all the apartment complexes.

Did someone on the urban planning department just mash the copypaste buttons?

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1538 on: February 01, 2013, 03:07:09 PM »
The stock plummet only hurts those who own it. This includes some of those responsible for the decision-making, so it's good in that light, but even if the stock dropped to "people are paying to get it off their portfolio," the company could run just fine. Not a dime of the money that's measuring the value of their stock is actually going into the company coffers nor supporting a single jot of their operating budget. Not unless they release new stock to the public, diluting the shares that are already out there.

So the only way we're going to get them to turn loose the IP is if we can get the stock prices to be embarrassing and make those who hold them and make decisions think and hope that releasing it would reduce the embarrassment.

If may however have an effect on all manner of other things. For example the developers with new games, which they depend on to at least some extent for the profit that keeps them alive as a company, will look elsewhere for a publisher. Likewise customers will stay away, at least some of them. In the end it's just another thing contributing to their inevitable demise.

Of course, I may be being overly optimistic. But hey, power of positive thinking.

Kosmos

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1539 on: February 01, 2013, 05:10:46 PM »
Father Xmas, I think you've implied that unless they have some huge expenses...like the new HQ they are building in a very pricy section of Seoul...plus a downturn in actual money being taken in, even the stock price dropping into the basement won't wreck the company because they supposedly have some big cash reserves they haven't spent.

The only thing I am interested in is how to get them to turn loose of the IP.

The company is in no danger of collapse at all. The stock price dropping is analogous to property values dropping - it means nothing to the value of the property for use (i..e. the operation of the company), only for sale or borrowing against it. As long as NCsoft doesn't need to raise capital the stock value is meaningless to them. They're flush with cash, expecting another big inflow in Q3 2013 from B&S release in China, and the millions they're spending on buildings and baseball teams isn't even putting a minor hitch in their stride. The building may well be a good investment rather than a liability (even the baseball team could be a good long-term investment). Sorry, but the company's finances are thoroughly sound.

As for the leadership getting forced out... that's also not going to happen. To do that you first need to get a seat on the board, then you need to talk the majority of the board around to ousting Kim. Getting on the board isn't easy. You'd pretty much have to buy out Nexon or TPG to do it. In any case, it would cost somewhere around $200M to get your hands on enough stock to force your way onto the board. And if you did go after Nexon's stock, for example, you'd find they're run by one of Kim's closest friends and that he'd get a better deal and first chance at the stock. But let's say you replace Byung-moo Park on the board. That still leaves you trying to talk two out of three of Kim's close friends and associates into stabbing him in the back (there are five board members, so you need your own vote plus two others). I doubt there's one chance in a billion of getting COO Hee-sang Lee to do that. Meaning you have to get both Myung Oh and Yun-seok Seo to side with you. They're both close to Kim and particularly his wife Yoon. I've said it before and I'll say it again... NCsoft is not some old megacorp being run by a group of detached investor proxies, it's a young company being run by the founders and a very close-knit group of socially connected individuals. There's just no crack for a hostile takeover effort to pry open. Kim isn't going anywhere until he feels like it.

The only realistic hope I see is that the new Western subsidiary gets independence, ownership of CoH, a strong leader and a marketing firm that thinks selling or reviving CoH would be good PR. I really don't see any Hollywood ending for CoH unless it is driven almost entirely by PR considerations.

[Edit:] I still like to see their stock plummet, since NCsoft and Kim each own about 10% of the shares. The recent drops have cost that duo twice what the new baseball team did. :D
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 05:38:48 PM by Kosmos »