NCSoft Stockwatch

[Lucretia MacEvil]

Valve might do it for the microtransations in the marketplace, but I'm not sure anyone else will.

It only takes one.

[Pinnacle Blue]

I've been kind of gone for a bit (and kind of still am) but I did ask some legal lawyerin' types about a class-action suit to force NCSoft to sell the IP (and not for $80 million).  I will report back when I've gotten some answers.

[FatherXmas]

How pray tell can you force a company to sell it's asset, other than due to bankruptcy?  What's the legal logic?  And as a class action?

[Mister Bison]

How pray tell can you force a company to sell it's asset, other than due to bankruptcy?  What's the legal logic?  And as a class action?

How about being personnally damaged by them stopping a service we don't have an equivalent to even pay for ?

[Little Green Frog]

How pray tell can you force a company to sell it's asset, other than due to bankruptcy?  What's the legal logic?  And as a class action?

You can't directly force them to sell, but legally unicorning them so the IP becomes sort of a stinking egg could be possible with a creative and determined lawyer on it. Whether that would bring any positive result, like making them more willing to get rid of the IP, is debatable. And there is also the question of whether another company would be willing to acquire such a stinky egg after we're done. I would probably leave this as a sort of last resort thing, when all other options are exhausted.

[Segev]

So a "Plan Y?" (I mean, clearly, our last resort is replacement that cuts NCSoft out entirely)

[Ironwolf]

In my mind the only way this gets done is if you turn the entire thing over to the wild immediately after you get it working.

If 10,000 people can host a server it makes it far harder to do anything about it and then we turn all these very clever people loose on finding a country that won't stop the hosting. Then I would be happy to host a server as long as I live and even for 10 more years with a nice endowment in my will.

[Little Green Frog]

So a "Plan Y?" (I mean, clearly, our last resort is replacement that cuts NCSoft out entirely)

Last resort for bringing CoH back. Plan Z is not about that; it is about making a game heavily influenced by the original. But as the saying goes, you cannot step into the same river twice.

In my mind the only way this gets done is if you turn the entire thing over to the wild immediately after you get it working.

If 10,000 people can host a server it makes it far harder to do anything about it and then we turn all these very clever people loose on finding a country that won't stop the hosting. Then I would be happy to host a server as long as I live and even for 10 more years with a nice endowment in my will.

Yes, this.

[houtex]

How about being personnally damaged by them stopping a service we don't have an equivalent to even pay for ?

Yeah, well, about that...

There is a specific clause in the EULA that, in effect, absolves them from any responsibilty for your personal/mental well being.  You can't sue them because it makes you sad, angry, malicious, violent, murderous, or any other bad adjective you'd like, because you can't play the game.

So if you played knowing this (You did read the EULA, right?  ["Why won't it READ?!" - Steve Jobs]) then you can't sue for that specifically BECAUSE you agreed it would never be an issue.

You with have to do a Garriot type damages thing, a real world loss of monies/posessions type thing, for a suit to even work...

Well, on the face of it.  Stranger things have happened in the world of courts.

---

Besides that, we all agreed to Arbitration in Austin, Texas.  We agreed not to sue.  Anyone doing so is then liable to be sued back for... improper suing?  I dunno.  It's all so complicated....

But yeah, don't play the emotional/personal damage card, it's not a good avenue.  Business-suit is a better suit to sue with...

/my head hurts.

[DarkCurrent]

So if your RMT 'g0ld ph4rm' dried up you might have a case?

[P51mus]

So if you played knowing this (You did read the EULA, right?  ["Why won't it READ?!" - Steve Jobs]) then you can't sue for that specifically BECAUSE you agreed it would never be an issue.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, I Am Not A Lawyer.

It's not quite so simple.  Eulas have been ruled invalid before, at least the kind where you open a box and "agree" to the eula. I haven't heard of any MMO Eulas being tested in court yet.  It'd probably depend a lot on the court in which it is tried.  It adds an extra barrier though, part of what tends to take lawsuits away from being useable by the average person.   Now, if we had someone who is wealthy and/or a retired lawyer with lots of time on their hands, they could still create a nightmare for NCSoft anyway. (Of course, if we had someone willing to fund a lawsuit like this and they really had enough to go through with it, they'd probably better spend their money paying NCsoft's 80 million extortion money for the game, assuming that's an actual number they'd sell at)

[chasearcanum]

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, I Am Not A Lawyer.

It's not quite so simple.  Eulas have been ruled invalid before, at least the kind where you open a box and "agree" to the eula. I haven't heard of any MMO Eulas being tested in court yet.  It'd probably depend a lot on the court in which it is tried.  It adds an extra barrier though, part of what tends to take lawsuits away from being useable by the average person.   Now, if we had someone who is wealthy and/or a retired lawyer with lots of time on their hands, they could still create a nightmare for NCSoft anyway. (Of course, if we had someone willing to fund a lawsuit like this and they really had enough to go through with it, they'd probably better spend their money paying NCsoft's 80 million extortion money for the game, assuming that's an actual number they'd sell at)

IANAL, but you're correct.  Generally speaking, many/most states have legal consideration that puts a lot of scrutiny on the contract-preparer and gives some protection of the so-called "fine print".  In essence-- the contract-preparer has an overwhelming influence to exploit the agreement, so if its found that they abuse that privilege by establishing extremely unfair or biased agreements, the courts will invalidate either the whole agreement or those provisions.

Software EULAs- particularly ones that aren't readable until after you break the seal of the package-- or ones that are modified well after you purchase the product like online EULAs- have proven to be some of the least enforceable, with many rulings siding against the software companies that try to hide behind those agreements.  The companies continue these practices, though, because it does serve as a deterrent- for many people, the necessary court argument doesn't justify the cost.

[Codewalker]

I haven't heard of any MMO Eulas being tested in court yet.

The Lineage II User Agreement has.

Gist of it is, according to a California court's interpretation of Texas law (gotta love the legal system), that EULA is enforceable, however NCSoft cannot disclaim liability for gross negligence, therefore that part of it is invalid.

[Codewalker]

Another thing to consider -- it's been a while since I saw it examined, but IIRC one of the provisions in the City of Heroes user agreement states that the agreement terminates if the service is discontinued. So everything in there may be null and void going forward. I'd definitely consult a lawyer to find out if that applies and what the legal ramifications of it are.

[Pinnacle Blue]

IANAL, but you're correct.  Generally speaking, many/most states have legal consideration that puts a lot of scrutiny on the contract-preparer and gives some protection of the so-called "fine print".  In essence-- the contract-preparer has an overwhelming influence to exploit the agreement, so if its found that they abuse that privilege by establishing extremely unfair or biased agreements, the courts will invalidate either the whole agreement or those provisions.

Software EULAs- particularly ones that aren't readable until after you break the seal of the package-- or ones that are modified well after you purchase the product like online EULAs- have proven to be some of the least enforceable, with many rulings siding against the software companies that try to hide behind those agreements.  The companies continue these practices, though, because it does serve as a deterrent- for many people, the necessary court argument doesn't justify the cost.

Goes without saying, but IANAL also (hence the asking around).  The CoH EULA has definitely been modified after purchase.

The idea here is, I'll admit, partially to legally unicorn them.  It'd be awesome if a class-action suit forced them to sell the IP and then because of the bad publicity/court costs their stock tanked even harder, but without an actual lawyer's judgment as to whether or not we'd have a case, we don't know if even the first part of that could happen. 

However, as it stands right now they're making $0 from holding the IP.  If the IP suddenly becomes a hot potato, so to speak, what's their incentive to continue to hold it?  (I mean, beyond whatever incentive is causing them to act like massive donkey phalluses in the first place.)  Let's not forget what kind of pleasant experience NCSoft has already deservedly had with the US court system-- the threat of having to go through all that again might make them cry "Uncle" preemptively.

Regardless of what the EULA says, we had every right to continue to expect to be able to play the game.  The profitability of the game, the much-anticipated update that never arrived, and the selling of a new powerset nine days before the shutdown announcement are all strong arguments for that.  If they don't want to continue to maintain the game, that's fine, but killing a profitable game enjoyed by tens of thousands and with a strong community is not only unfair, it's just plain evil.  I will hold a grudge against them forever for it (as will most of us), and I'd like to see if there's not something daring, unpredictable, and frightening we could legally do to them.

And if it turns out they are in fact valuing the IP at $3 million for tax purposes?  Winning would be delicious, because that (and not the rumored $80 million figure) would likely what they'd have to sell it for.

[Little Green Frog]

Goes without saying, but IANAL also (hence the asking around).  The CoH EULA has definitely been modified after purchase.

The idea here is, I'll admit, partially to legally unicorn them.  It'd be awesome if a class-action suit forced them to sell the IP and then because of the bad publicity/court costs their stock tanked even harder, but without an actual lawyer's judgment as to whether or not we'd have a case, we don't know if even the first part of that could happen. 

Just keep in mind that legal unicorning is a double-edged sword. It may and probably will also hurt the reputation of the unicorns - in this case our community. We may be successful at making their life a little more complicated, but at the same time we may scare away any potential buyer for the game. If you ran a business, would you want to invest into something knowing that if you screw things up, the fans will go straight for your throat?

[NecrotechMaster]

Just keep in mind that legal unicorning is a double-edged sword. It may and probably will also hurt the reputation of the unicorns - in this case our community. We may be successful at making their life a little more complicated, but at the same time we may scare away any potential buyer for the game. If you ran a business, would you want to invest into something knowing that if you screw things up, the fans will go straight for your throat?

well "screw things up" and "intentionally overloading a studio to close it out of spite" are 2 different things

i doubt any company would be able to top ncsoft in the douchebaggery factor

[Little Green Frog]

well "screw things up" and "intentionally overloading a studio to close it out of spite" are 2 different things

i doubt any company would be able to top ncsoft in the douchebaggery factor

Everyone keeps forgetting somehow that NCsoft is the same company that funded the development of the game in the first place and also saved it when Cryptic saw it fit to go work for Microsoft on Marvel MMO that eventually became Champions Online. They helped establish Paragon Studios and kept the game operational for the next full 5 years.

[JaguarX]

Everyone keeps forgetting somehow that NCsoft is the same company that funded the development of the game in the first place and also saved it when Cryptic saw it fit to go work for Microsoft on Marvel MMO that eventually became Champions Online. They helped establish Paragon Studios and kept the game operational for the next full 5 years.

I havent forgot and that is the main reason I find it hard to just go from "Nooob, how dare you say anything bad about NCSoft" prior to Aug29th to "Nooob, how dare you anything positive about NCSoft."

I guess people forget and remember the negative stuff more easily. You (just general example not you personally) can be best friends with someone for ages and they trusted you with your life, but do one they dont like then those tens years is as if it never existed. They instead act like you was born their enemy. In hindsight, those ten years of friendship might have well never existed because people remember and like to hear the negative stuff is boring and not remembered. In human minds it seems, 1 negative thing can totally wipe out 1 million positive stuff off the face of the earth as if it never happened. People who played NCSoft game for nearly if not more than a decade and then one day, just in a single day, those positive feelings was nullified.

[NecrotechMaster]

oh im not saying that ncsoft was bad for doing that, but how they handled the shutdown was extremely poor and thus i dont care if they were the original makers of the game, the action of killing the game has tarnished their reputation in my eyes and thus i will never see them as a good company again, them actually selling coh will only release the grudge so i wont actively go around spreading my opinion of how bad they are


another good example of this is how the star rating system for AE was made, it took 7 5-star ratings to negate just 1 1-star rating, it takes a lot of good to see the good but all it takes is 1 negative rep to throw it in the toilet