Author Topic: NCSoft Stockwatch  (Read 722995 times)

Quinch

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1900 on: April 02, 2013, 03:53:47 PM »
Basically, NCsoft puts $1 into CoH, they get $2. They put $1 into GW2, they get $5. Translate that to millions and its a big difference.

NCsoft closing CoH doesn't make them stupid or malicious, its the way it was conducted that was wrong.

That said, that perspective would make sense if that was an either-or kind of situation - there was no reason not to get both the $2 and $5 returns from supporting both titles. Unless, again, NCsoft execs assumed we'd simply move from the dollar well to the cash cow.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1901 on: April 02, 2013, 03:58:04 PM »
That said, that perspective would make sense if that was an either-or kind of situation - there was no reason not to get both the $2 and $5 returns from supporting both titles. Unless, again, NCsoft execs assumed we'd simply move from the dollar well to the cash cow.

I think what some businesses would think is that if they freed up that $1 going to the low ROI project, they could invest more in the high ROI project.

I personally would want to stay diversified and have my money coming from multiple stable projects. Once again, not saying I agree with NCsoft, just showing that it is possible that the CoH shutdown was NOT done because of malice toward us or stupidity on NCsoft's part. Two sides to every story and all that jazz.

Quinch

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1902 on: April 02, 2013, 04:08:11 PM »
Indeed, but the investment had already been made and paid for itself - past that point, everything Paragon Studios put out that exceeded operating costs was gravy.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1903 on: April 02, 2013, 04:43:48 PM »
Only if they actually pay to develop those titles in a timely manner.  I don't know what the situation in Korea is when it comes to staffing but so far in the US all we are hearing about is cuts.  If there are not good updates, frequently, there are other new, shiny, and FTP game out there that will not cost the internet cafes a single won to put on the roster.

There's also the consideration of system overhead working against NCSoft -- aside from the game setting, there isn't much real difference in the play of NCSoft's 'core' MMOs, so they have to keep cranking up the level of chrome in the games, whether it's more ornate armor, or flashier combat moves, or more world detail, or more special effects. And remembering that NCSoft had to go out to the Internet cafes in Korea and offer them free hardware upgrades so that they'd be able to run Aion on their systems, it's entirely possible that NCSoft runs into a situation where the Internet cafes will have to decide whether to run NCSoft's new games at lower graphics settings (defeating the purpose of all the new chrome), buying upgraded hardware to run the games (and charging more for time on them, which could cut down on players), or to go back to NCSoft and see whether they're willing to front the same hardware upgrade in order to get their games into the cafes.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1904 on: April 02, 2013, 05:19:50 PM »
Quote
My point was CoH was bringing in a paltry amount of sales compared to Aion even at it's current anemic levels, anemic compared to where it was even a year ago.  I doubt a game with still over 10x the sales CoH had when it's plug got pulled is in the crosshairs.  Yet.

That still does not matter! This is a honey badger of a company that just does what it wants. If Aion or GW1 or any of their titles stops "aligning with their current focus" then guess what? It ***WILL*** be history. Don't ask questions, dont wonder why. BOOM! CLOSED!

Quote
As much as we hated it they didn't close CoH out of malice.

it was probably actually stupidity not malice, yet their actions subsequently reek of malice. They'll reek more strongly of malice just as soon as we find out they're going to refuse to sell the game to Emmert, or Cryptic or whoever. Which I do believe they will do, because that's how they are.

None of us was there, we can only judge on what we see. If it looks like malice, acts like malice, smells like malice and is afraid to say why because oops, got to keep that quiet 'cause it looks like malice, then I believe there is a strong possibility that there's some antisocial behavior going on here.

Quote
So TonyV, you believe that NCSOFT had been intentionally lying in they investor reports for years leading up to the closure of CoH as part of some grand plan to lay the groundwork for a justifiable reason to close the game?  So at what point did this start or is all their numbers for the last 8 years are falsified?  That sounds a lot like premeditation which does imply then some degree of malice.

Do you really think that corporations never lie? They never fudge numbers? because far as I can tell, they do lie and hide their real motives for various actions. It happens every day. Its a big reason that the entire world economy is teetering on the brink as I type. If the whole world can be on the brink due to businesses lying and fudging numbers, you'd better believe one gaming company situated overseas can do it. They probably have LESS oversight than the US does!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 05:25:41 PM by Illusionss »

TonyV

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1905 on: April 02, 2013, 05:44:55 PM »
So TonyV, you believe that NCSOFT had been intentionally lying in they investor reports for years leading up to the closure of CoH as part of some grand plan to lay the groundwork for a justifiable reason to close the game?

How many times do I have to say this?  More or less, YES.  I think that "lying" might be a bit strong of a word to use, as I'm sure they probably don't view it as lying.  You know as well as I do that almost all companies shift money around from point A to point B to accomplish various goals and convey certain appearances.

For example, how many companies are incorporated in Delaware?  How many companies do you honestly think have any connection to Delaware other than it being on some paper saying that's where they incorporated?  Why do you think they do this?  It's because the fees, taxes, and laws regarding corporations in Delaware are the most conducive to incorporation than any others in the United States, so some hugely disproportionate number of companies are incorporated there.  (A quick Internet search turns up that 60% of Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware and 75% of IPOs happen in Delaware.)

Is this "lying"?  I would argue that it's at least a bit dishonest.  If I've been operating a business in, for example, the state of Georgia, taking advantage of the resources that exist here to build my company up to a point where I'm ready to incorporate, I intend to continue doing so after incorporation, and I'm indelibly associated with the state of Georgia (The Home Depot? Coca-Cola? Delta Air Lines?), it seems to me pretty scummy to incorporate in Delaware and deny money that the state of Georgia desperately needs in its own budgets to continue providing services and resources to allow more people to start businesses and prosper.  Yet not only is this practice legal, it is extremely common.

Companies do things all the time that normal people like you and I would consider at least a bit dishonest, sometimes outright lying, but that are technically legal.  Do you really think that if NCsoft is going to launch a new game such as Aion that they're not going to do their dead-level best to convince customers and investors that this is the best game on the market and that people are flocking to it in droves?  One way to do so is to take any kind of shared expenses such as, I dunno, corporate accountants, legal consultants, etc., and shift them onto studios and/or games that the company doesn't care so much about, games that are in other markets where they don't want to focus their efforts.  Another is to take sales that can't really be precisely pinned down to City of Heroes sales such as game time cards or subscription fees and attribute them to games you want to make look better.

That's just off the top of my head, the most common things companies do in this vein.  I'm sure that a practiced attorney could come up with more.  And that's just assuming that what NCsoft is doing is strictly legal.  I don't know how loose the laws are in South Korea.  I do know that their version of the SEC isn't as stringent and that bribery and corruption are not exactly unknown in the country.  So is it really that hard to imagine that the numbers that NCsoft are reporting do not convey an accurate picture of what has actually been going on within the company, but an ideal picture of what they want investors to think is happening?

It's only natural to dismiss facts if they don't agree with our "gut".  But how did closing our game, if it was doing as well as you are suggesting, help them?

My rationale for what I believe has never solely been my "gut".  I have repeatedly said, and I'll say again, that I have been told by multiple sources within Paragon Studios that City of Heroes was doing very well.  I've even had people go so far as to say that it was doing better than appearances within the IR reports at NCsoft would have it appear to be doing.  I was told some of this even before the August 31 announcement.

So someone is either lying, or at least mistaken.  When such a conflict arises, I ask myself who has more of a motive to lie (or more likely to be mistaken), and who has more to lose?  The Paragon Studios thing is done.  NCsoft clearly has more of a motive to protect its reputation and income by clinging to their position than some schmoes who have moved on and gotten new jobs with other companies, especially since we're not the only people questioning it.

I also ask, who has been a more reliable source of information in the past?  Well, we do know that NCsoft has been doing bupkiss for marketing the game, and they have committed what I consider at least two egregious lies when: 1) they told us that "all options have been exhausted", and 2) they shoveled the whole "unsuccessful in finding a suitable partner" spiel on us via MMORPG.com.  (And I have to point out that although Lincoln Davis made the statement, I do not personally pin the blame on him for this lie; he is the head of corporate communications, not executive management and not the financial guys who are spinning the numbers.  I'm almost certain that he was only relaying a message that was given to him by higher-level management.  He's basically the Zwillinger of the NCsoft corporate overlords.)

It also just doesn't make sense to me that Paragon Studios was committing to so many resources, staffed up to double what would be normal to work on another game, going full steam ahead with development of new features, items, and expansions for City of Heroes, if the management of the studio had any clue at all that they were considered in trouble or if he considered their income "paltry" over the last year or two.  If Paragon Studios management didn't honestly believe that the game was doing really well, I have to ask you, why in the world weren't they going into big-time cost-cutting mode trying to save money and increase their bottom line?  Meanwhile, everything that NCsoft has done since indicates that they are scrambling to consolidate operations and management at the home office in South Korea, really focusing more on the Asian market than the North American one.

No company would intentionally upset their customer base unless there was an upside to it, so what was it?

It's really simple.  I really believe that NCsoft had no idea whatsoever that the outcry at the closure of Paragon Studios and City of Heroes would generate.  I honestly believe that they expected to announce that it was all shutting down, people would say, "Gosh, that's too bad.  Oh well, time to move on to Guild Wars 2!", and that would be that.  I honestly believe that NCsoft has not one drop, not one microscopic speck, of clue when it comes to how western gamers tend to get attached to their game, their development staffs, and not so much to companies, how we don't view these games as just interchangeable cogs, that when one shuts down, we don't simply move on to the next big thing.  So there's the bulk of your answer: NCsoft never considered that shutting down Paragon Studios or City of Heroes would upset their customer base.

And why would they?  They had shut down Auto Assault, Exteel, Dungeon Runners, and Tabula Rasa without much outcry.  The closest they came was Tabula Rasa, but to be blunt, that game hadn't really been around long enough to generate the intensity of feelings people had towards it to match what happened with City of Heroes.  To be fair, if City of Heroes had shut down in early 2006, there probably wouldn't have been much outcry about it, either.

And what's the upside?  As I've said repeatedly, I believe that NCsoft's current strategy is to consolidate operations and management to their South Korean corporate offices.  The upside is that they have one less foreign subsidiary that they have to worry about, one that was probably getting a bit antsy due to what I think were (valid, in my opinion) feelings within Paragon Studios management that they were being jerked around and not supported by their publisher like they should have been.  NCsoft had already had one subsidiary blow up on them and weren't keen on a repeat.  The upside is that they wouldn't have to risk that.  Just shut the whole thing down and be done with it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 05:58:43 PM by TonyV »

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1906 on: April 02, 2013, 06:10:20 PM »
Wow.  :)  Look what I spawned with a single pun!

THAT was a hilarious read.  :)

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JaguarX

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1907 on: April 02, 2013, 06:13:32 PM »
That still does not matter! This is a honey badger of a company that just does what it wants. If Aion or GW1 or any of their titles stops "aligning with their current focus" then guess what? It ***WILL*** be history. Don't ask questions, dont wonder why. BOOM! CLOSED!

it was probably actually stupidity not malice, yet their actions subsequently reek of malice. They'll reek more strongly of malice just as soon as we find out they're going to refuse to sell the game to Emmert, or Cryptic or whoever. Which I do believe they will do, because that's how they are.

None of us was there, we can only judge on what we see. If it looks like malice, acts like malice, smells like malice and is afraid to say why because oops, got to keep that quiet 'cause it looks like malice, then I believe there is a strong possibility that there's some antisocial behavior going on here.

Do you really think that corporations never lie? They never fudge numbers? because far as I can tell, they do lie and hide their real motives for various actions. It happens every day. Its a big reason that the entire world economy is teetering on the brink as I type. If the whole world can be on the brink due to businesses lying and fudging numbers, you'd better believe one gaming company situated overseas can do it. They probably have LESS oversight than the US does!

could be malice but if so why not just let it sink the first time instead of buying cryptic shares? Or why not kill it off when it was at it's peak. Why the wait of 8 years? Most games, that doesnt get the label of being "shot" dont last 8 years.

Plus yes thye may as well turn down Jack and cryptic. Depends o nthe actual offer and HOW it's presented. If it's presented as, "Hey NCStupid (and or all those other names people come up with) you better sell or we'll make a PR nightmare." Then hell yeah they probably wont be itching to talk turkey (business) with that group. I wouldnt blame them.

But you might as well be right with the malice thing. if it look like malice smell like malice (etc) then it might be. Yet apply that to their end. If a deal look fishy smells fishy then it might be fishy. Then they will turn it down.

Then again no one even know if they have plans for the IP or not yet. They havent said. All we know right now they havent (or refused to as some put it) to sell.

Just as many here are quick to label anyone that agrees with NCSoft as a paid NCSoft employee or worse, and seemed to have been labeled the enemy my plenty of people here, espeically apparent with some that constantly turn it's name into NC(insert negative connotation and or insult) why would they run to the table when someone anyone that may hvae look smell or have suspicion of laying in bed with those that seem to hate them? Most people here probably wouldnt no matter how much money is offered. If someone insults a person everyday because they no longer allow them to borrow the lawnmower, then that perosn that been insulted them for weeks on end show up on the doorstep talking about "here's $50. I want to buy the lawnmower." Many people would not be friendly to that person. Especially if you turn them down and they say you refused to sell and is stupid for not selling on Facebook, and to anyone they come across. Would that make a person go "geesh, well since they are talking bad about me, how about I'll accept his offer with a smile." Many here probably would say "Man, screw that guy. I dont care if he offer his first born child. I am not selling a single item to him ever." In the offer's eyes, the lawnmower owner may not be using the lawnmower anyways and it was with malice they took it back especially since they allowed them to use it for 5 years, put gas in it, repaired it when it broke and lost all that money when the owner took it back.

What I'm getting at, how and why would it be expected to entertain any offer from just any old company especially ones in alliance or agree with the enemy? Hell, that type of behavior here is barely tolerated if at all here. Someone cannot come here and say NCSoft was just and proper without a few comments later someone saying "This is for saveCOH and if you do not believe in that you should leave." or the likes. So why expect NCSoft to do the exact opposite of the behavior of the people that are expecting? Serious question out of curiosity and for clearification. No malice intended.

Not to mention, patience goes a long way.  They may not be selling right now but later down the line they might but dont want to burn bridges before they are even completed. At first if they are not interested in selling, they wont sell, just like any human being or corporation.  Ever hear every now and then about the story of some land developer wanting to build a mall (or the likes) yet a couple of old people refuse to sell the land even after being offered many times over the appraised value of the land even though they are not currently using it? Do it make these old people just as stupid  and antisocial or act with malicious intent (even though I'm not sure a corporation is supposed to be social in the first place as that would imply they are a  living feeling entity that should have the same rights as humans, which I think is a political debate now so I wont delve into that) as NCSoft. Same cocnept. They own land they not using it wont allow others to use it. NCSoft owns COX not using it wont allow anyone else to use it. Some would gladly say yes, others will side with the old people and as usual it's war. The lines are drawn. Them vs us. That side vs this side. This battle with NCSoft is as old as people owning property and other people wantign that property they dont own.  All I'm saying is that if we or anyone else is serious about wanting to get NCSoft to talk any type of turkey, think about the otherside if you had something (for whatever reason) didnt want to sell but someone wanted to buy. Someone might live where everythign they own is for sell. If one of those people is on right now. I have $16 dollars for your playstation 2 and all one hundred games. Take it or else you are an anti-social malicious prick to dare deny me the right to buy your property for what ever I think is a fair price. :p But seriously, try to look at it if you(not you in you in particular but you in general) had something to sell but didnt want to (for what ever reason).

But in the end what NCSoft do and will do will be irrelevant as we will have two games that will show them how it's done.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 06:33:33 PM by JaguarX »

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1908 on: April 02, 2013, 06:44:28 PM »
Yet apply that to their end. If a deal look fishy smells fishy then it might be fishy. Then they will turn it down.

If there's any accuracy to what I heard about how businessmen typically think in Korea, then practically ANY offer to buy CoH would smell fishy to them.

And this isn't really a racial accusation. It's more of a cultural one. Allegedly they're a little bit skiddish about making deals with people or companies they don't already have ties, and that leads to a lot of what to us would appear to be 'phobia' or spite. This mindset isn't really that weird. We feel it all the time when getting cold calls from telemarketers.

Typically before one starts doing business with another in Korea, they are introduced to each other by a third party that knows both. This means that perhaps all offers made for CoH aside from anything by Paragon Studios, would likely by treated with great skepticism.

Keep in mind I'm not stating this as fact. For one, none of the sources I found made any distinction between North & South Korea, even though those nations are as different as night and day. This is only what I was able to find based on a lot of web link reading. It could be outdated (but even if it is, all cultures have conservatives who stick to older ways of doing things), or it could be a lot of misinformation (intentional or unintentional), like a certain 'other' topic about the traditions of Korea that I hope none of us ever start discussing again. But it certainly seems to fit the behavior of NCsoft during the Paragon City's darkest hour.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1909 on: April 02, 2013, 06:46:53 PM »
Let's talk about NCsoft's stock in the stockwatch thread, shall we?

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS

They've been solidly in the 140-160 range for the last couple months (with a big dip in early Feb). Between 155-160 for the last week. I don't see them moving much from there without another disaster.
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Illusionss

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1910 on: April 02, 2013, 06:47:52 PM »
Quote
Then again no one even know if they have plans for the IP or not yet. They havent said. All we know right now they havent (or refused to as some put it) to sell.

The only "plan" they have for that IP is locking it in a nuclear bunker 500 feet underground, pouring a half-ton of concrete over the entrance and then putting the actual Cerebus from Hell in front of the mass to guard it. They don't want it, but they will make damn sure no one else gets it either. There will be no bunker-buster bomb that can reach that IP: it will be dead forever. BUT! Love you guys and FLY FREE, y'hear?

If we love NCStupid, if we hate them, either way: honey badger just dont care. They are immune to our sweetest blandishments, and immune to our sharpest swords. They're that way because they just don't care.

They are free to prove me wrong any minute of every day! I will be the first to apologize and admit I was wrong.

I wont hold my breath waiting.

JaguarX

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1911 on: April 02, 2013, 07:31:36 PM »
The only "plan" they have for that IP is locking it in a nuclear bunker 500 feet underground, pouring a half-ton of concrete over the entrance and then putting the actual Cerebus from Hell in front of the mass to guard it. They don't want it, but they will make damn sure no one else gets it either. There will be no bunker-buster bomb that can reach that IP: it will be dead forever. BUT! Love you guys and FLY FREE, y'hear?


lmao.

yeah, kind of hard to defend that case.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1912 on: April 02, 2013, 07:38:50 PM »
Let's talk about NCsoft's stock in the stockwatch thread, shall we?

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS

They've been solidly in the 140-160 range for the last couple months (with a big dip in early Feb). Between 155-160 for the last week. I don't see them moving much from there without another disaster.


Wait, what? ;)
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Menrva Channel

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1913 on: April 02, 2013, 07:51:23 PM »
In reference to the latest stock update, wasn't February the end of  quarter? (And does that mean we are in a new quarter?)

JaguarX

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1914 on: April 02, 2013, 07:53:41 PM »
If there's any accuracy to what I heard about how businessmen typically think in Korea, then practically ANY offer to buy CoH wou;ld smell fishy to them.

And this isn't really a racial accusation. It's more of a cultural one. Allegedly they're a little bit skiddish about making deals with people or companies they don't already have ties, and that leads to a lot of what to us would appear to be 'phobia' or spite. This mindset isn't really that weird. We feel it all the time when getting cold calls from telemarketers.

Typically before one starts doing business with another in Korea, they are introduced to each other by a third party that knows both. This means that perhaps all offers made for CoH aside from anything by Paragon Studios, would likely by treated with great skepticism.

Keep in mind I'm not stating this as fact. For one, none of the sources I found made any distinction between North & South Korea, even though those nations are as different as night and day. This is only what I was able to find based on a lot of web link reading. It could be outdated (but even if it is, all cultures have conservatives who stick to older ways of doing things), or it could be a lot of misinformation (intentional or unintentional), like a certain 'other' topic about the traditions of Korea that I hope none of us ever start discussing again. But it certainly seems to fit the behavior of NCsoft during the Paragon City's darkest hour.

Yeah. Sounds like most corporations. If I called Apple right now and said I want to buy the rights to the Ipod they probably would either laugh their heads off, hang up, give run around until I give up or all three even if I write up a business prop proper and was serious as a heart attack about it and had the means to do it they probably won't take it serious if they entertain it at all. Now if the likes of Google called they probably will set up a business meeting even if to say "hell no!"

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1915 on: April 02, 2013, 07:54:23 PM »
In reference to the latest stock update, wasn't February the end of  quarter? (And does that mean we are in a new quarter?)
I know the business world doesn't always function quite the way I think it does, but I'm pretty sure the quarter is Jan/Feb/Mar, not Dec/Jan/Feb.  That being said, since we just entered April, then yes, we are in a new quarter now.
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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1916 on: April 02, 2013, 07:55:50 PM »
Yeah. Sounds like most corporations. If I called Apple right now and said I want to buy the rights to the Ipod they probably would either laugh their heads off, hang up, give run around until I give up or all three even if I write up a business prop proper and was serious as a heart attack about it and had the means to do it they probably won't take it serious if they entertain it at all. Now if the likes of Google called they probably will set up a business meeting even if to say "hell no!"

I think you mean Lisa. The iPod, as a property, is still going strong. (Isn't it?)
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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1917 on: April 02, 2013, 07:59:34 PM »
I know the business world doesn't always function quite the way I think it does, but I'm pretty sure the quarter is Jan/Feb/Mar, not Dec/Jan/Feb.  That being said, since we just entered April, then yes, we are in a new quarter now.

Yeah i forget sometimes their quarter system number. Was it first quarter aka fiscal year started Jan. or second quarter, fiscal year in Oct.?

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1918 on: April 02, 2013, 08:02:01 PM »
I think you mean Lisa. The iPod, as a property, is still going strong. (Isn't it?)

Either way. Insert any major corporation and product. Figured apple would be mist recognizable compared to some that is well known in my circles but unheard of in most others.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1919 on: April 02, 2013, 08:02:09 PM »
Was it first quarter aka fiscal year started Jan. or second quarter, fiscal year in Oct.?
That one always throws me.  It doesn't help that it's different from business to business.
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