NCSoft Stockwatch

[houtex]

I didn't forget that.  Did they forget we've paid to have the game continue?  And that it was profitable?

I can then selectively forget that NCSoft did what they did in the past.  I am thankful they did, but that doesn't make this right, Frog.  Don't try to make it any less than it is: Betrayal of their player base, and their employees.

For all the good they did in the beginning... all undone in a single day.
 
Perhaps this is a good parallel.  A person is a perfect driver, never hit anyone, never had an accident, always uses their turn signals, was courteous to other drivers, etc, whatever... they get drunk ONE time, they crash into another car that ONE time, and they hurt someone badly.
 
All that good they did is undone in that one unfortunate decision to get drunk.  That's NCSoft.  Except this wasn't their first time being drunk, Richard Garriott can comment upon that time if he wants.

[DarkCurrent]

Everyone keeps forgetting somehow that NCsoft is the same company that funded the development of the game in the first place and also saved it when Cryptic saw it fit to go work for Microsoft on Marvel MMO that eventually became Champions Online. They helped establish Paragon Studios and kept the game operational for the next full 5 years.

NCSoft could've made the CoX closure a thing of beauty.  A wicked awesome sendoff for a much beloved game that brought so much to so many for 8 years.  Instead they chose the path of 'fire em all and shut it down' with no explanation and no consolation prize for the players.

Those actions burned all credit they had with me.

[Little Green Frog]

I didn't forget that.  Did they forget we've paid to have the game continue?  And that it was profitable?

I can then selectively forget that NCSoft did what they did in the past.  I am thankful they did, but that doesn't make this right, Frog.  Don't try to make it any less than it is: Betrayal of their player base, and their employees.

Don't make it any more than it is. Betrayal? Closure out of spite (that's referring to the post I was replying to)? But of course! Clearly, that is how companies make business decisions in the time of a raging financial crisis.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to argue that we are supposed to like them. But the fact remains that without their effort to keep the game afloat, it could've been shut down back in 2007 or at best entered maintenance mode. Instead the game bloomed like never before.

[Taceus Jiwede]

All that good they did is undone in that one unfortunate decision to get drunk.  That's NCSoft.  Except this wasn't their first time being drunk, Richard Garriott can comment upon that time if he wants.

I am still a little surprised that Richard Garriot isn't joining in on the cause but I am sure he has bigger fish to fry. 

Perhaps this is a good parallel.  A person is a perfect driver, never hit anyone, never had an accident, always uses their turn signals, was courteous to other drivers, etc, whatever... they get drunk ONE time, they crash into another car that ONE time, and they hurt someone badly.

NCSoft isn't like the person who got drunk the time though because this wasn't just a lapse in judgment or a mistake that was tragic.  They knew very well they would at least be putting 80 people out of work and they handled it in a way that made them come off almost as heartless (If you read the testimonies).

Still I agree with Frog we don't want to come off to possible buyers like a fan base that will act out if they decide to shut down the game in the future.  Clearly lots of people understand where we are coming from, but we don't want to get to the point where people forget that we are more upset how they handled the closure and negotiations then the actual closure it self.

[Quinch]

But the fact remains that without their effort to keep the game afloat, it could've been shut down back in 2007 or at best entered maintenance mode. Instead the game bloomed like never before.

Maybe, but it's a false dichotomy - it's also possible that the game would have been picked up by a third company, which might have handled it better than NCsoft. Or it could have gone down forever.

[houtex]

Don't make it any more than it is. Betrayal? Closure out of spite (that's referring to the post I was replying to)? But of course! Clearly, that is how companies make business decisions in the time of a raging financial crisis.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to argue that we are supposed to like them. But the fact remains that without their effort to keep the game afloat, it could've been shut down back in 2007 or at best entered maintenance mode. Instead the game bloomed like never before.

Yep, and only with the Freem 15 at one point... due to NCSoft's amazing cash abilities...

I can't shake that this is betrayal.  It's not anything less in my mind.  NCSoft told Paragon "here's money, go make something.  No, really, we love you guys, go do this.  And keep CoH going."

And kept that up, with them, with us, until *BLAMMO!* Hatchet to the neck.  Knife in the back.  Whatever you decide to put there.

Is it the adjective you don't like?  Tell me the correct one then.  Disingenuous, turncoat... which adjective does apply then?

Not that I want an argument, really.  It's very nice that NCSoft saved the stuido and the game back when.  Really.  I said so when I emailed Mr. Kim, et al, and I even THANKED THEM.  I'm not about [Vengeance] (as I never took that power anyway, as it happens) but I am not about sugar coating the past to make the present look less heinous.

And I'm the guy who argued "It's just business."  It's just... this is my feeling, logic aside, about this... they did this on purpose.  And did it to the wrong folks if anything, because they had OTHER PROPERTIES that are better suited to the decision.  On paper, without accounting tricks and such.  According to what I can read... and is being thrown about... certainly not from NCSoft, as if that's the truth, then Paragon was the right decision.

But how can that be the truth, for sure, if they are not telling us the reasons, straight up?  We can take it, honest!  While again, that's Buisness for ya, being all sneaky and secretive and such, it is not fueling any less than deception and conspiracy to kill the stuidio and trick the playerbase to move to another of their products... that we don't like (most of us, apparently, or so I've read hereabouts.)  If it's true, and they want the PR problem to die, rather than wait it out, let's see the real deal(tm). 
 
But they can't, because it would reveal... interesting tactics, let's say.  Stuff the people/governments wouldn't like.  So they... can't.  And that isn't helpful at all to the equation.

And they COULD SELL.  Just because they have a history of not, doesn't mean this couldn't be let go.  They are hoarding it for whatever nefarious (at this time that's what it looks like) purposes.  Just... let it go be something somewhere else.  Excepting desiring to funnel potential CoH sales into something else they offer, there's no other reason not to, when you get down to it... but they don't.

There is SO MUCH they could do to make it less of a problem, but they simply refuse to for... what?

That's why, to me, it's a betrayal.  Nothing less.  They refuse to work with anyone for... no good reason except to do it.  Not even sell the product back to the studio, or just let it keep going and shut down the part of the studio that was doing the never gonna happen product, and start making money from it, or make some money and sell it...

Nope... Just BOOM.  Headshot!  Drop dead y'all, or hey, come play one of our grindfests, see?

Emotional?  Naw.  Just callin' it like I see it.  May sound like it, but it's not.

But that's business for ya... it doesn't make sense a lot of times to the consumer.  And it sucks.  And it's not honorable, if that would have mattered to them, to be disingenuous to the Studio, their investors, and us, in regards Paragon's situation, instead obfuscating it behind bean counter trickery.  If that's what happened.  I wouldn't know... they won't say. 

/Gotta love fancy ass accounting, yeah?

[Illusionss]

Everyone keeps forgetting somehow that NCsoft is the same company that funded the development of the game in the first place and also saved it when Cryptic saw it fit to go work for Microsoft on Marvel MMO that eventually became Champions Online. They helped establish Paragon Studios and kept the game operational for the next full 5 years.

If you think for one instant that I, or indeed most former players who want this game back, are going to decline to play an emulator because NCSoftheaded did this back in the day, then you are even more delusional than NCSoft is for thinking they can "BOOM! HEADSHOT! LOL" us without fear of consequences.

That's just adorable that they did that. Warms the cockles of my heart. And it tempers my present FURY with this company, NOT BY ONE IOTA!!

Houtex: And they COULD SELL.  Just because they have a history of not, doesn't mean this couldn't be let go.  They are hoarding it for whatever nefarious (at this time that's what it looks like) purposes.  Just... let it go be something somewhere else.  Excepting desiring to funnel potential CoH sales into something else they offer, there's no other reason not to, when you get down to it... but they don't.

There is SO MUCH they could do to make it less of a problem, but they simply refuse to for... what?

That's why, to me, it's a betrayal.  Nothing less.  They refuse to work with anyone for... no good reason except to do it.  Not even sell the product back to the studio, or just let it keep going and shut down the part of the studio that was doing the never gonna happen product, and start making money from it, or make some money and sell it...

Nope... Just BOOM.  Headshot!  Drop dead y'all, or hey, come play one of our grindfests, see?

Emotional?  Naw.  Just callin' it like I see it.  May sound like it, but it's not.

Yep. And I, myself am not this detached. I'm actually emotional. This entire situation is giving me bad dreams over it. No joke. But this right here is nothing but truth: they are doing this for no good reason, except that they CAN and might makes right.

NCSoftheaded can step off the damn curb. I will be on an emulator the instant I find out about one. What are they gonna do, sue? If some stupid company in Korea with tanking stock thinks its worth it to sue little me over here in the US, you know.... bring it. What are they gonna do? Do I have assets they would find worth taking?! LOL!

I think NCStupid has a few bigger fish to fry right now than worrying about suing American hobbyists on an emulator. If they dont look sharp, there will not be a corporation left TO file the suit! Which would suit ME JUST FINE.

p.s. GW2 is a grindfest - and a boring one at that - on a level I have never seen. This makes running BAF 5000 times look like nothing.

[HarvesterOfEyes]

Clearly, that is how companies make business decisions in the time of a raging financial crisis.

I do hope you mean "in a mindless panic" just here.

The knots one has to twist oneself in to in order to argue that closing PS and CoH when and how they did was a rational business decision are more appropriate to a carnival sideshow than a semi-serious discussion meant to investigate and discover thruths.

Times of financial crisis are not those in which mindful people lop off profitable limbs.

It seems to be an article of faith with some that business people generally make rational decisions. I don't subscribe to that religion, and I suggest its tenets are terribly misleading.

Reason is something human beings have to work at.

EDIT: Spelling

[Little Green Frog]

Maybe, but it's a false dichotomy - it's also possible that the game would have been picked up by a third company, which might have handled it better than NCsoft. Or it could have gone down forever.

It wasn't really a dichotomy. I said could, not would. It is impossible to discern what would happen. However, NCsoft took over and the following 5 years were really successful for the game.

If you think for one instant that I, or indeed most former players who want this game back, are going to decline to play an emulator because NCSoftheaded did this back in the day, then you are even more delusional than NCSoft is for thinking they can "BOOM! HEADSHOT! LOL" us without fear of consequences.

Huh? Where did not playing an emulator (whatever that means) thing came from? How does your reply relate to what has been discussed?

That's just adorable that they did that. Warms the cockles of my heart. And it tempers my present FURY with this company, NOT BY ONE IOTA!!

I mean no disrespect to you, alas I don't know how to put it gently. It appears that your FURY impairs your reading comprehension. You are replying with anger to something that has not been said.

[Illusionss]

Huh? Where did not playing an emulator (whatever that means) thing came from? How does your reply relate to what has been discussed?

You were stating [or so it seemed to me] that so far from being angry, or waiting for an emulator that we should instead be grateful to NCSoft for past development of the game; and by inference, that this gratitude should temper our anger at how we have been treated.

Overall your posts come off as very defensive of NCSoft, you never hesitate to remind us of how dangerous an emulator would be, how the lawsuits would fly right and left and DANGER WILL ROBINSON! I am speaking in general terms here. Any time someone posts about taking any action, no matter what it is seems like, there you are with "no, we better not do that" because of some perceived horrid danger to ourselves. I find it unlikely in the extreme that some overseas corporation who is even now literally fighting to survive is going to have time or $$$ to hunt down everyone on an emulator and drone-strike their houses.

People are gonna do what they are gonna do. And if NCStupid does not like that, they should have thought twice before the harebrained "strategy"  they adopted, which amounts to pretty much "BOOM, HEADSHOT! LOL!!!" Yeah.... nice. I feel all kinds of loyal. They betrayed us, and by extension damaged the entire MMO industry by introducing a lack of trust.

[Ironwolf]

No, the existence of an Emulator or server code will not always cause lawsuits and panic.

I am spending some of my time starting today searching to see what countries do not have IP agreements with South Korea or the U.S. If we then get a Hero Exfoliator I will gladly host one. I hosted both a Dustbowl TFC server for 3 years and a Soldier of Fortune 2 server for 2 years (in fact I built my own SoF2 server and had a friend with ISP hosting ability install it for me) and so hosting a CoH server would not phase me in the least.

Give me the code and I will make it happen. I will also post the code on that hosting site and spread the wealth. Then I will host a website from the same site with players rating the various shards that appear and a forum for the top 10 - 20 shards so you know where your friends are playing.

That is how you make the game happen again - the community is restored, the game rolls on and instead of a company hosting all of the servers - players can. You can play on Virtue Restored, Champion Forever, True Freedom or any other server that shows what we are about.

[Little Green Frog]

You were stating [or so it seemed to me] that so far from being angry, or waiting for an emulator that we should instead be grateful to NCSoft for past development of the game; and by inference, that this gratitude should temper our anger at how we have been treated.

There was no inference, nor conclusion to my statement. I simply stated a fact, without drawing any thesis from it. However I did so in response to yet another outburst of angry nonsense. I somewhat dislike angry nonsense.

Overall your posts come off as very defensive of NCSoft,

Like the one where I admitted to being a subscriber to the theory that corporations, and by extension NCsoft, are psychopaths?

you never hesitate to remind us of how dangerous an emulator would be,

Now that would be quite funny if I did that, given I am eagerly awaiting for a functional emulator to be finished. Moreover, I am trying to advocate open sourcing the code, so it spreads and becomes immune to potential NCsoft legal scare tactics. (Plus it would be fun to play with the code and submit patches.)

I am speaking in general terms here.

So general that they include opinions contrary to those I share it seems.

Any time someone posts about taking any action, no matter what it is seems like, there you are with "no, we better not do that" because of some perceived horrid danger to ourselves.

I only do that if I think their actions are pointless and wil end blowing in their faces, while leaving the target unscratched and possibly even unaware of the attempt. Plenty of that around, sadly. Although it's not surprising, given how emotional the subject is. Unfortunately strong emotions have a habit of clouding one's judgement.

I find it unlikely in the extreme that some overseas corporation who is even now literally fighting to survive is going to have time or $$$ to hunt down everyone on an emulator and drone-strike their houses.

People are gonna do what they are gonna do. And if NCStupid does not like that, they should have thought twice before the harebrained "strategy"  they adopted, which amounts to pretty much "BOOM, HEADSHOT! LOL!!!" Yeah.... nice. I feel all kinds of loyal. They betrayed us, and by extension damaged the entire MMO industry by introducing a lack of trust.

You appear to be arguing with yourself again. Or to be precise: your mental image of me, who shares my forum name and avatar, but not my opinions.

[Ironwolf]

Looks like Paraguay is the future home of Paragon:

http://www.ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2012%20Special%20301%20Report_0.pdf

Page 51.

[Twisted Toon]

I havent forgot and that is the main reason I find it hard to just go from "Nooob, how dare you say anything bad about NCSoft" prior to Aug29th to "Nooob, how dare you anything positive about NCSoft."

I guess people forget and remember the negative stuff more easily. You (just general example not you personally) can be best friends with someone for ages and they trusted you with your life, but do one they dont like then those tens years is as if it never existed. They instead act like you was born their enemy. In hindsight, those ten years of friendship might have well never existed because people remember and like to hear the negative stuff is boring and not remembered. In human minds it seems, 1 negative thing can totally wipe out 1 million positive stuff off the face of the earth as if it never happened. People who played NCSoft game for nearly if not more than a decade and then one day, just in a single day, those positive feelings was nullified.

The problem is, NCSoft was never our "Best" Friend. They were just an acquaintance that helped out a couple of times.

Then, they tuned around and showed us what they really thought of us. Hence, the feelings of betrayal.

I have been "friends" (or so I though) with someone who turned around and betrayed that friendship.
It's one of the reasons that I have a lot of acquaintances and not a lot of friends.

[NecrotechMaster]

The problem is, NCSoft was never our "Best" Friend. They were just an acquaintance that helped out a couple of times.

Then, they tuned around and showed us what they really thought of us. Hence, the feelings of betrayal.

I have been "friends" (or so I though) with someone who turned around and betrayed that friendship.
It's one of the reasons that I have a lot of acquaintances and not a lot of friends.

this is exactly how i feel about ncsoft, they were in no way a friend just because they bought out the game from cryptic, but when they did a complete 180 and shut us down, theres definitely some ulterior motive going on that they wont tell us about

i dont care if they did technically save the game by buying it out almost 5 or so years ago, what i care about is what happened only the last few months, why did they backstab us exactly? what reason would they have to pull a 180? those are questions that only ncsoft knows the answers to and they sure as heck aint talking

[Illusionss]

Like the one where I admitted to being a subscriber to the theory that corporations, and by extension NCsoft, are psychopaths?

Nope, stuff like: "Just keep in mind that legal unicorning is a double-edged sword. It may and probably will also hurt the reputation of the unicorns - in this case our community. We may be successful at making their life a little more complicated, but at the same time we may scare away any potential buyer for the game. If you ran a business, would you want to invest into something knowing that if you screw things up, the fans will go straight for your throat?"

This above is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Let's tiptoe around NCSoft, because of something that might happen in some hypothetical situation somewhere, at some time in the future.

I'm tired of tiptoeing, sorry. Tiptoeing got us royally kicked in the teeth.

Now that would be quite funny if I did that, given I am eagerly awaiting for a functional emulator to be finished. Moreover, I am trying to advocate open sourcing the code, so it spreads and becomes immune to potential NCsoft legal scare tactics. (Plus it would be fun to play with the code and submit patches.)

Haven't seen you say that, but sure have seen a lot of stuff like the earlier quote.

I only do that if I think their actions are pointless and wil end blowing in their faces, while leaving the target unscratched and possibly even unaware of the attempt. Plenty of that around, sadly. Although it's not surprising, given how emotional the subject is. Unfortunately strong emotions have a habit of clouding one's judgement.

Ergo: do nothing.

That doesn't work for me. Nor does it work for a lot of people.

You appear to be arguing with yourself again. Or to be precise: your mental image of me, who shares my forum name and avatar, but not my opinions.

This isnt an argument, but a comment of how your statements appear to others. Its nice if your actual opinions dont match these posted attempts to get everyone to back down and be vewwy, vewwy quiet in case NCStupid gets their feelings hurt. Just saying.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I think NCStupid has a few bigger fish to fry right now than worrying about suing American hobbyists on an emulator.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  I admire your passion I do.  But the mentality of riding down a steep hill with no brakes and assuming you will be fine has brought down many great men and women.  Don't put out that fire in your belly.  Just be cautious of what you will do with it. 

Personally I won't be playing an emulator unless it seems completely legit and free from legal recourse, I for one have had my share of legal run ins and let me tell you, they aren't even kind of fun.  Hell you don't even look back on them and go "Well at least I learned from it" it is nothing but a mental/emotional/finical ass whooping.

As for Frog I still agree about the double edge sword of legal unicorning.  If I were an investor or a buyer.  I already would not buy this game.  Sure I could be the knight in shining armor now but 5 years later when something may and could change all of sudden I am the villain, I have thousands of fans doing exactly what we are doing now.  Fans that are willing to make my company go bankrupt.  Lets say I was this company and I gave it a kind goodbye and a epic ending, whats to stop our group from acting out this way again.  How would I know I did it right?  We speak of how great of a community we are, which is true no arguments, but we don't want to become a community that publishers fear. I admire everyone's passion here I do.  But sometimes passion only gets you in trouble.  If COH gets brought back at some point it will be shut down again. Maybe in 5 years, maybe in 10 years, maybe 100 years.  But noting lasts forever and at some point it will shut down and who ever buys it doesn't wanna get the backlash we have given NCSoft.  The most important thing we can do here is show that we just want our IP in better hands not that we "Will do anything in hell or heaven to get back our game regardless of who owns it or who we have to screw."  Don't those actions sound kind of familiar?

Before everyone starts lashing out at me calling me a traitor or what ever here are the points that I think are the most important.

It is good to be passionate and fight for something you believe in.  But you don't want to fight so hard or get so passionate you scare others off from helping you.  We need companies to know we are mad at NCSoft for the decisions they made for this game.  Not that the game closed, and not that we feel the company doesn't have a right to close it.  We want a company to know that we are just looking for a fair publisher that will treat the game with respect.  WE DONT want to come off across "Buy our game and IF YOU EVER LET ANYTHING HAPPEN TO IT, well, just look at what we did to NCSoft"

That's my two cents.  Please read all of what I typed before replying to what I said though. I don't want people lashing out at me because they only read half of what I typed

[Little Green Frog]

This above is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Let's tiptoe around NCSoft, because of something that might happen in some hypothetical situation somewhere, at some time in the future.

I cannot force reading comprehension upon you. You read what you want to read.

Haven't seen you say that, but sure have seen a lot of stuff like the earlier quote.

You have lovely way of drawing conclusions.

Ergo: do nothing.

That reading comprehension of yours? I am really not a fan.

That doesn't work for me. Nor does it work for a lot of people.

Oh well. I told you that before, I will tell you again: unleash that FURY of yours. What stops you?
 

This isnt an argument, but a comment of how your statements appear to others.

Oh, okay.

[golemjoe]

this is exactly how i feel about ncsoft, they were in no way a friend just because they bought out the game from cryptic, but when they did a complete 180 and shut us down, theres definitely some ulterior motive going on that they wont tell us about

i dont care if they did technically save the game by buying it out almost 5 or so years ago, what i care about is what happened only the last few months, why did they backstab us exactly? what reason would they have to pull a 180? those are questions that only ncsoft knows the answers to and they sure as heck aint talking

Right, I guess I don't care for the "saved the game" theme.  They did it for profit and it worked out well for them.  The fact that it worked out well for us too.. that was wonderful.  However I don't think I will ever have a sense of owing NCSoft, because I can't think of any valid examples where they weren't compensated financially for whatever product they helped support.  They didn't run the game at a loss.. or anything close to it.  It was profitable. 

The fact that they shut down a profitable, much loved game doesn't make me hate them.  But it does convince me that I'd be foolish to waste my time and money supporting any of their future products unless I'm convinced there's an exit plan for something that I and others enjoy but NCSoft no longer views as being part of their strategy.  If they can handle themselves better with CoH, that's a sign (to me) that if enough people care about a product then they'll do the right thing when it comes time to let it go. 

Unfortunately I'm not convinced their execs will ever make that leap, and therefore I can't trust them as a customer.

[golemjoe]

As for Frog I still agree about the double edge sword of legal unicorning.  If I were an investor or a buyer.  I already would not buy this game.  Sure I could be the knight in shining armor now but 5 years later when something may and could change all of sudden I am the villain, I have thousands of fans doing exactly what we are doing now.  Fans that are willing to make my company go bankrupt.  Lets say I was this company and I gave it a kind goodbye and a epic ending, whats to stop our group from acting out this way again.  How would I know I did it right?  We speak of how great of a community we are, which is true no arguments, but we don't want to become a community that publishers fear. I admire everyone's passion here I do.  But sometimes passion only gets you in trouble.  If COH gets brought back at some point it will be shut down again. Maybe in 5 years, maybe in 10 years, maybe 100 years.  But noting lasts forever and at some point it will shut down and who ever buys it doesn't wanna get the backlash we have given NCSoft.  The most important thing we can do here is show that we just want our IP in better hands not that we "Will do anything in hell or heaven to get back our game regardless of who owns it or who we have to screw."  Don't those actions sound kind of familiar?

Before everyone starts lashing out at me calling me a traitor or what ever here are the points that I think are the most important.

It is good to be passionate and fight for something you believe in.  But you don't want to fight so hard or get so passionate you scare others off from helping you.  We need companies to know we are mad at NCSoft for the decisions they made for this game.  Not that the game closed, and not that we feel the company doesn't have a right to close it.  We want a company to know that we are just looking for a fair publisher that will treat the game with respect.  WE DONT want to come off across "Buy our game and IF YOU EVER LET ANYTHING HAPPEN TO IT, well, just look at what we did to NCSoft"

That's my two cents.  Please read all of what I typed before replying to what I said though. I don't want people lashing out at me because they only read half of what I typed

I disagree.. I think a better mindset would be "Oh these people are really into supporting this game.  I can make money off them by providing a good product.  And if it turns out I can't (or don't want to) provide that in the future, I can count on them not only being reasonable but possibly also helping to find someone who will buy it from me.  Why?  Because they love this game.  As long as I am honest and don't act like a complete tool, they're behind me all the way!"

Just my .02.  Yes I know that a lot of businesses want to assume they have complete control over something, I have to hope there are some that are just fine with treating their customer base with respect.  If that's not something you'd do as a large business owner, definitely your choice.  I just think you'd be making a mistake.