NCSoft Stockwatch

[FatherXmas]

So why do you think they wouldn't be willing to sell it? Does it give them more stock options or something?

Honestly, with the exception of EVE, game companies traditionally don't sell off an individual IP.  And with EVE it's owners, Simon & Schuster, were getting out of the software business so selling off their portfolio of software IP makes sense in this case.  Plus the game wasn't first announced as closing.

As for AC2, Turbine bought their rights back for both AC and AC2 in 2003 since Microsoft has a love/hate relationship with PC gaming.  It's not like they have an MMO division.  So it was Turbine who decided after this long hiatus to bring back AC2 as Microsoft had been out of the picture for years.

[NecrotechMaster]

well "sales" of an MMO that you could just download from the website and then sign up for a sub doesnt really account for a lot

usually sales are in terms of physical copies and this game was almost completely digital since it was rare to see it in stores but you could always download from the website or reinstall with a physical copy

[Taceus Jiwede]

This is for FatherXmas, you clearly are very educated about the topic at hand so maybe you can answer this for me.  Your analogies about the two restaurants actually was pretty accurate I think, companies have the right to do what is best for the company.  The slight difference I see is at any point any other restaurant or you could of made this Peperoni Pizzadilla and sold it (with a different name of course) at any restaurant and while Jack in the Box moved you could still drive down to the south and get some Jack in the Box if you really wanted it.  COH is no longer anywhere in the world for anyone to use.  And when profit is the most important thing in a company you think they would make one last profit off something that is now profit-less  You already addressed why NCSoft wouldn't sell CoH that also made sense.  But why not lease it or "rent it" for example some one pays NCSoft to use the IP.  I understand this would still put us at the mercy of NCSoft but it doesn't even seem like they are willing to do that.   They would still make money on just owning the IP.  Because you seem to be the expert on it.  Why is this?  Is it because it simply would too much of hassle?  Or is just a really poor business decision to "rent" an IP from a company and therefore NCSoft knows no one would do it?

To clarify by "rent" I mean just pay the company royalties for the characters and stories or something along those lines.

[houtex]

Renting it would likely be a wholly worse situation, because NCSoft can't really rent the accounts out without a lot of disclosure/EULA/Agreements/? between them and the renter, not to mention US.  Perhaps I don't WANT Sony, for example, to have access to anything of mine.  (and this is true, Sony and me do not have a good relationship on my end, so I don't support them.  I would have to not play CoH for that if Sony was involved with it.)

But the biggest reason I'd see is this:  If the game is going to run... then NCSoft would just run it.  The renter isn't going to get some discount on the product... they'll have to pay MORE than what NCSoft wanted to keep it running.  NCSoft would want a decent payment to rent it out, after all.

That alone means that, from a sub standpoint, the fees will go up.  As will the micro transactions.  And having a third or fourth layer on all that noise?  Yeah... we can't afford to play it alla sudden, in many cases.  I could, 15 vs 30 a month isn't a hardship on me... but for a lot of people, 15 a month is stretching it.  Then add the microtransactions...  Even some of the freemium people couldn't afford all the toys they wanted at once...

That's why it has to be brought back under NCSoft's wing, or sold outight, nothing else makes sense to do, because of the extra layers and administration and who do we call for tech support, server support, etc. ad nauseum, and we'd pay quite a bit more for all that.  And some of us won't or can't.  And it would be my guess the arrangement would not last long due to that alone.

[FatherXmas]

This is for FatherXmas, you clearly are very educated about the topic at hand so maybe you can answer this for me.  Your analogies about the two restaurants actually was pretty accurate I think, companies have the right to do what is best for the company.  The slight difference I see is at any point any other restaurant or you could of made this Peperoni Pizzadilla and sold it (with a different name of course) at any restaurant and while Jack in the Box moved you could still drive down to the south and get some Jack in the Box if you really wanted it.  COH is no longer anywhere in the world for anyone to use.

And City of Heroes players who want to get their hero on could play Champions Online or DC Universe Online.  And burger chains are a dime a dozen in the US.  It wasn't like Jack was the only burger chain in the tri-state area (/em  Doofenshmirtz).

And when profit is the most important thing in a company you think they would make one last profit off something that is now profit-less  You already addressed why NCSoft wouldn't sell CoH that also made sense.  But why not lease it or "rent it" for example some one pays NCSoft to use the IP.  I understand this would still put us at the mercy of NCSoft but it doesn't even seem like they are willing to do that.   They would still make money on just owning the IP.  Because you seem to be the expert on it.  Why is this?  Is it because it simply would too much of hassle?  Or is just a really poor business decision to "rent" an IP from a company and therefore NCSoft knows no one would do it?

To clarify by "rent" I mean just pay the company royalties for the characters and stories or something along those lines.

Well that's what they did with their titles in Europe, both Lineage II and Aion aren't directly run by NCsoft anymore there but by 4game and Gameforge respectively.  However the difference is that NCsoft is still handling the development.  That's not something either of those companies are responsible for.  All they are doing is localizing another company's product and selling it into their local market.

The difference here is while CoH may have been profitable from an operating cost point of view, it was the studio that NCsoft looked to eliminate.  And without a studio behind the title continuing development and fixing bugs the game itself didn't have a long shelf live no matter who ran the day to day operations (billing, servers, website, help desk) of the game proper.

Without some of that talented people at Paragon being available to a "new" studio that just maintained and extended the current game, selling went out the window the moment they gave everyone their walking papers.  At least when NCsoft bought out Cryptic's stake in the game, they were able to poach most of the current developers who were working on it.  No ugly learning curve by tossing the source code to an unfamiliar team of developers.  So that is an added cost to whomever buys the game now that Paragon is no more.

Also add into the equation that as soon as they announced the game's closure, those who weren't as passionate as most here on Titan simply made their peace and moved on and now after 4 1/2 months would they be willing to come back or are they now attached to their new MMO of choice?  So higher development cost, at least time wise and a likely shrunken playerbase.  It makes the game even less attractive now.  If NCsoft wanted to sell, they would have had to decided to do that and NOT announce the closure of the game simply to make the property worth more to an outsider.  Even if it's just to "rent".

Edit:  Repeat after me.  Possessive, not plual.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Well put FatherXmas and Houtex.  While I knew they weren't possibilities and were not the right way to go they were questions they popped in too my mind so thanks both of you for accurate and well thought out answers.

[JaguarX]

And City of Heroes players who want to get their hero on could play Champions Online or DC Universe Online.  And burger chains are a dime a dozen in the US.  It wasn't like Jack was the only burger chain in the tri-state area (/em  Doofenshmirtz).

Well that's what they did with their titles in Europe, both Lineage II and Aion aren't directly run by NCsoft anymore there but by 4game and Gameforge respectively.  However the difference is that NCsoft is still handling the development.  That's not something either of those companies are responsible for.  All they are doing is localizing another company's product and selling it into their local market.

The difference here is while CoH may have been profitable from an operating cost point of view, it was the studio that NCsoft looked to eliminate.  And without a studio behind the title continuing development and fixing bugs the game itself didn't have a long shelf live no matter who ran the day to day operations (billing, servers, website, help desk) of the game proper.

Without some of that talented people at Paragon being available to a "new" studio that just maintained and extended the current game, selling went out the window the moment they gave everyone their walking papers.  At least when NCsoft bought out Cryptic's stake in the game, they were able to poach most of the current developers who were working on it.  No ugly learning curve by tossing the source code to an unfamiliar team of developers.  So that is an added cost to whomever buys the game now that Paragon is no more.

Also add into the equation that as soon as they announced the game's closure, those who weren't as passionate as most here on Titan simply made their peace and moved on and now after 4 1/2 months would they be willing to come back or are they now attached to their new MMO of choice?  So higher development cost, at least time wise and a likely shrunken playerbase.  It makes the game even less attractive now.  If NCsoft wanted to sell, they would have had to decided to do that and NOT announce the closure of the game simply to make the property worth more to an outsider.  Even if it's just to "rent".

Good stuff. Hell, is seemed that even some of the most talented, and as talented as they were, had trouble with certai naspect of the code. I can only imagine the chaos in trying to learn the code with a brand new team.

I found a game better than I liked the old gaming home to rent and probably wouldnt return myself. But COX was a game I played for a long time and didnt wish it to end like that nor see old friends/people I barely know/people I dont know/enemies to suffer from loss of something important to them. Thus is why I am here. Sure I could have stayed at the game I'm at now (stopped playing COX June 21 2011, last log in 25 July 2011) and looked down and merely say "Well sucks to be them. Oh well, not my problem." and keep it moving and not give a crap about if people suffer or not. But I have heart, probably too big of a heart, my gift and my curse, my rise and my downfall. But just like helping to save an old neighborhood, when it's done and goal accomplished, it doesnt mean I'm going to move back into the old neighborhood. Nope, I'm going back to the current home.

But yeah, I doubt it will come back in it's complete form aka NCSoft just reversing the decision. It wouldnt be the same either way even if they right now hit a switch and COX was up and running again. The huge amount of players that just moved on and may not come back because they either found a new game, or like some stated here, they dont trust NCSoft and or have deep hatred for NCSoft. So more than likely the playerbase will be even less than it was after the announcement was made.

Then of course the devs. I think just as WoW was just a wonder of perfect storms happening, the same with our dev team. Talented, open, commicative, and down to earth. As many have stated already, they havent found another game with devs like we had in COX. But if COX came back, there would have to be new devs as many of the old ones moved on, and or probably dont trust NCSoft anymore than many here do. Thus it's possible that the new ones are nothing like the old ones and might even have ideas that are way different than what we view COX is supposed to be and what direction to take. They might be another set of devs that believe doing things the WoW way is the only way to be successful and draw crowds and thus start implementing WoW like elements. Or they may be the type that dont like to talk to fans or view customers as mere peons *ahem* people that know nothing of what makes a game great and will be satisfied with what they think is good. Or they may be green as an unripe bannane and make greenhorn mistakes. Or they may simply just sit there fix a bug here and there and focus on ways to nickel and dime a player base to death instead of bringing out issue after issue of content and working on QoL issues. Or hell, they may try to turn it into a grind fest. Or turn it into a super hero skinned EverQuest and etc. Or they may be even more open than the old devs and take what ever suggestion that floats their way with no filter, which isnt good either to keep players besides the ones that are being catered to.

[HarvesterOfEyes]

The difficulty of dealing with code someone else wrote is often overblown.

Here you have a big, complex system, but one that actually works and lots of people understand reasonably well what outcomes it produces.

Sounds like paradise compared to some of the projects I've worked on.

[pewlagon]

A lot has been said here and I was hopeful NcSoft would see reason before the game shutdown, but since they went forward with the closure it has become clear, to me and my former YouTube team, that CoH is gone. NcSoft got what they wanted, they were shocked by the outpouring of frustration by the CoH community and their response was to make it as difficult as possible to get the game back online in a profitable form. Why? Well, if they wouldn't be making money off it they probably wanted it to fade so it wouldn't generate as much revenue for whoever they might sell it to.

Sadly, timing is everything here. The damage has been done and two spiritual successors have arisen which, to a prospected buyer of CoH, would showcase that the community has, indeed, moved on. This will make it very hard to find a buyer, if NcSoft is even willig to sell the IP, which I highly doubt. The more likely scenario is one of the two, or both, projects finding backers and being pushed full steam ahead. Inesting time and effort in getting an old MMO back online and coaxing the community back is simply not good business sense. Better to cultivate those here toward a new endeavor.

As to NcSoft. The lesson here is, to all of us, don't follow a slash and burn comapny. They used CoH, and its playerbase, to fund other projects and when those were ready they cut the cord. For me, I knew this was coming back in January 2012 when CoH timecard were recalled and replaced with NcSoft timecards which could not be used for CoH. That spoke volumes to me, but I was hoping it was merely a sign of rebarnding the gamecards to including CoH Bucks or some such thing. Sadly, I was wrong. No, my trust in NcSoft is gone and the campany can rot in the quagmire of bad PR they brought upon themselves. And if they ever launch a game here in the states again I will be the first on those forums educating people.

As for CoH I hope someone steps forward to put the game back online, but as more time passes that becomes less likely. The Dev team is shattered and the code for the game is a monster to work with, as many devs joked in the closing days. I have not given up hope in VV, hell she's one of the authors I idolize as far as work ethic is concerned, but I am finding myself more and more looking forward to the Phoenix Project and Heroes/Villains than I am a return to CoH.

[NecrotechMaster]

for me i still would go back to coh, because it was most enjoyable to me, now if i had to start from scratch and had to choose one of the brand new successors or old coh, idk i would have to try out the new ones first

if we were going to be getting all of our stuff back then yeah i definitely would go back to coh

[Twisted Toon]

The difficulty of dealing with code someone else wrote is often overblown.

Here you have a big, complex system, but one that actually works and lots of people understand reasonably well what outcomes it produces.

Sounds like paradise compared to some of the projects I've worked on.

CoH's code is an 8 year patchwork of spaghetti code that I'm sure would be very difficult for a new person to decipher.

[dwturducken]

I'll repeat what I've said before: we have here amassed a group of determined and skilled individuals with a common purpose. Do not underestimate what we can accomplish, given the opportunity.

[HarvesterOfEyes]

CoH's code is an 8 year patchwork of spaghetti code that I'm sure would be very difficult for a new person to decipher.

I've had to deal with code-bases of greater complexity that didn't actually work.

CoH sounds like a playground.

[Mister Bison]

CoH's code is an 8 year patchwork of spaghetti code that I'm sure would be very difficult for a new person to decipher.

As already posted before by TonyV:
Challenge Accepted

[Sajaana]

In the way I see it, the whole "code monster" line fom Paragon always sounded a little too vested with self-interest to be believed.  Of course Paragon was going to say how impenetrable the code was...because it makes their case that they are the only ones who could run it or make it valuable.

Honestly, what does a shrewd employee say?  That he or she is dispensable?  Or that he or she has some unique knowledge that is irreplaceable?

If it runs--or even if it was known to have run--it can be deciphered.

[Valjean]

[The Fifth Horseman]

We're talking about an eight year old code base, where the original development team was no longer available for comment, and the owner was pushing the then-current developers into band-aid bugfixes rather than proper ones.
In a scenario like this, any code eventually mutates into Codethulhu, and it goes the faster the sloppier the original design and implementation were.
And yes, someone who is familiar enough with the monstrosity may be quite crucial. It all depends on how well the code is - or is not - documented, of course.

[Little Green Frog]

In the way I see it, the whole "code monster" line fom Paragon always sounded a little too vested with self-interest to be believed.  Of course Paragon was going to say how impenetrable the code was...because it makes their case that they are the only ones who could run it or make it valuable.

Honestly, what does a shrewd employee say?  That he or she is dispensable?  Or that he or she has some unique knowledge that is irreplaceable?

If it runs--or even if it was known to have run--it can be deciphered.

I am wary to make assumptions without much knowledge about you and your work experience, but to me it does look like you may have never tried to work with legacy code in a corporate environment.

[dwturducken]

I don't think he's coming from rose-colored optimism. I'm a pretty damned good mechanic, of the shade tree (amateur) variety, and I've only ever run into one problem on a car that I could not fix (the mid-eighties Volkswagen/Audi fuel injection system apparently uses phlebotinum in certain key components). That said, nothing on a car is ever as easy to work on as it looks. From what I am learning about programming and have seen out in the field, "legacy code" is as bad, if not worse.

I ran into it all the time on old Cisco network gear. Someone, somewhere along the line, found a piece of config code that did what they needed it to do and stuck it in. Then something else would break, and I had to go in and figure out why what should have fixed the problem wasn't doing what I expected it to. It was always the kludge, and, because it "looked right" the first few times reading through, and there was the pressure that comes with it always being a critical piece of gear that was halting business, it was never a smooth, easy fix.

In the wild, when time is critical, and you have to figure it out NOW, naturally things are going to be harder to figure out. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a bunch of knowledgeable individuals whose hobby has been taken away from them. No one, however, is suggesting that it's going to be easy.

[Quinch]

The fact is the code is pretty crazy. The original developers were inexperienced and sloppy. They didn't document a lot. The folks we know inherited it without any training. I don't recall anyone ever saying that code was impossible, but that making significant changes was always a herculean task. But despite that, the very small dev team still did things to the game that Cryptic never thought could happen, from powers customization to incarnates and f2p.

It also bears mentioning that they worked under much tighter constraints than a deconstruction team - Paragon devs had less leeway for experimentation, as they couldn't afford diverting too many resources or - heaven forbid - pushing a patch that might end up breaking something major to live. A team without these limitations can freely go "okay, let's do this and see what happens".