NCSoft Stockwatch

[ukaserex]

OK.  THIS is just wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to count them.

According to a very reliable friend of mine, Guild Wars 2 is banning the handicapped.

This is how it breaks down.  Arenanet recently started purging GW2 of bots.  Except that the definition of a "bot" includes people that contact them to protest being banned because they are using handicapped-assists.

Here is my conversation with him:

He's on his way to visit (should be here in 3 days) and I am going to sit down with him, verify this, get some actual names of handicapped people that are banned and verify they can't get any redress, then turn this loose on the game journalists.  What I REALLY want to know is, is this ArenaNet?  Or is this an edict from NCSoft that ArenaNet is helpless to do anything about?  But that is what I will let the journalists try and figure out.

wowWOW! I'm finding this tidbit very interesting. I am still stunned at some of the anecdotal stories about those with types of autism and other types of learning issues being able to play CoH, and for some to be temporarily liberated in a sense. I keep imagining an episode of Oprah where an adorable little girl or boy was able to play CoH with one or both of their parents and be so-called "normal" for a time..and then Oprah finds out the game was closed...however, I don't think Oprah does her show anymore. Maybe Dr. Phil?

[TimtheEnchanter]

What kind of a "handicap assist" would resemble a 3rd party macro to a video game client?

[Victoria Victrix]

What kind of a "handicap assist" would resemble a 3rd party macro to a video game client?

Damn good question, innit?

[Kaiser Tarantula]

OK.  THIS is just wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to count them.

According to a very reliable friend of mine, Guild Wars 2 is banning the handicapped.

This is how it breaks down.  Arenanet recently started purging GW2 of bots.  Except that the definition of a "bot" includes people that contact them to protest being banned because they are using handicapped-assists.

Please excuse my language, but...

What the genuine crispy shit is this.

Yeah, I can understand wanting to remove bots from your game.  That's fine and dandy.  But there are two kinds of bots.

1). Bots that are wholly autonomous grindmachines.  They either interface with the client, or load up instead of the client.

2). Bots that follow commands given by a live player.  This is less a 'botting' and more 'multiboxing' - there's still an actual player present, but he's using macros to control several logged-in characters at once.

Bot type #1 is a problem.  They can grind 24-7 without rest, inflating the supply of whatever they intend to farm, be it money (creating inflation), or items (crashing item prices).  Getting rid of those is something I wholly support.

Bot type #2 isn't so much an issue.  Macro teams are often more limited than a equivalent team of actual players.  All of the macro'd characters have to be doing roughly the same thing as the primary character, they're elaborate to set up, they're vulnerable to lag and desynchronization, and you can't run each character to their optimum performance (there are some things an automated character just can't do).  In addition, since a living, breathing person has to be there to manage them, the macro team has to log off from time to time for rest and recuperation; they don't have as pervasive and constant an effect on the economy as a perpetually-active bot.

Further, #2 is stupidly easy to detect and thwart via game design and enforcement.  Simply force teams to split up occasionally to deal with multiple threats, and arrange dynamic team content that's more than just tank-and-spank.  Further, if you see someone with a heavily-geared main tank, followed around hot on his heels by a healer and a gaggle of barely-equipped ranged DPS classes that all seem to follow his movements near exactly and never use more than a couple of their skills at a time, then you've probably spotted a macro team.

Short summary? There's no reason to ban people for disabled-assist software.  Simple enforcement will get rid of macro teams.  The only programs you need to ban are those that allow for fully-autonomous bots, and those tend to be very specific to the game they're botting for.

[houtex]

I had a reply to this handicapped thing here:
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7586.msg98259.html#msg98259

But I didn't know it was being discussed here.  After reading Kaiser's message... meh, I probably shoulda stayed outta this.

Ham handed at best, the way they're doing it.  One can only hope they didn't plan on needing to do this (what?!  They FARM STUFF?!  Inconceivable!) and this is their kludge until they can get a MARTy in or whatever.

Or... yep, they're jerks.

[dwturducken]

It might be possible to get the Institute for Justice involved. It's a bit like the ACLU. Regardless, enough players contacting some sort of organization like that whose sole existence is being the the big group of lawyers who stand up for little guys might get some attention.

Also, thanks to Tony, I must now figure out how to work the Infinity Unicorn into my D&D campaign...  :o

[LadyWizard]

Unfortunately that's gameguard for you... most korean grindfests actually do have a "bot detect" program you're forced to install and it will disable your game until all "bots" are uninstalled even if it's just a gaming mouse program that COULD macro key.  I heard that's what happened in shaiya and a few others

[Xieveral]

They wouldn't be the first gaming company to be discrimatory, Blizzard has banned players for using third party applications and Funcom pretty much told hearing impaired players "That's too bad" when they complained about missions in TSW requiring you to listen for clues in order to progress. They can get away with it too because they can hide behind their TOS and say "Well you agreed to such and such which vaguely states you can't do that and have no right to complain"

I'm guessing companies aren't obligated to make their games handicap-friendly. A handful of people from one game might not get attention but if you can get enough people from various games bringing this to attention it might put the heat on the industry to bring about change.

[mikoroshi]

... Funcom pretty much told hearing impaired players "That's too bad" when they complained about missions in TSW requiring you to listen for clues in order to progress.

As someone with an immediate family history of--and now myself developing--hearing impairment, this ticks me off to no end.  I was going to buy TSW this week after getting paid but I think I may have changed my mind now.

[The Fifth Horseman]

There was this one - apparently handicapped - guy who sued Blizzard for character movement speeds in WoW. IDK how that case turned out, though.

[FatherXmas]

I replied a bit in VV's thread over on the other games board but I'll chime in here as well.

Scanning the various "hey I was wrongly banned threads" started on the GW2 forums they fall into several categories, some we are familiar with.

There's the "you locked my character for having a name violation but the game filter let it through during character creation".  Those can be humorous and the arguments familiar.

There's the "I've been (temp) banned for using profanity/racially charged language, why do you have a profanity filter if profanity isn't allowed?"  We've seen these as well in CoH.

There was the ban for using an exploit, excessively, to make money.  Argument there was "you created the bug, why should we pay the price because we found it and abused it?".

Just recently, going along with the Christmas Holidays, a number of people were flagged and banned for e-mailing gifts of either large amounts of in game money or rare items to newly joined friends/relatives.  The RMT detection script flagged these transfers and bands of the sender were issued.

Note that there is a process in place to appeal, the problem is it requires the player to ask for one rather than just rant on how unfair it all is or why the reversal isn't instantaneous but can take days.

And then there's the massive bot ban that started about two-three weeks ago.  And like a massive roll out of automated photo speed enforcement rigs, a number of people who were only using macros in a very minor infraction of the rules were suddenly surprised to find that ANet isn't kidding when they said no means no.  To my knowledge they don't look for macro software or hardware, too easy for professionals to spoof, on the client machine but claim to look at the speed and repetitive nature of commands, movement and powers, as well as repetitive actions and use that information to "guess" if the person on the other end is real or is using automated assistance.  Now since this bot detection tool is new, bans aren't automatic but like traffic tickets from automated cameras, they are looked at by real humans.  However it seems that the large volume has led to apparent rubber stamping in most cases (since we don't know how many false positives are filtered at this stage, for argument sake I'm saying none are) and with the attitude that if they were wrong it'll be sorted it out on appeal (traffic court), sorry for the inconvenience.

Note it's also being suggested that long hours of gameplay without breaks or repeating the same series of event content repeatedly during a game session could also get you on the watch list.  So you could argue that farming content in an area is discouraged.

ANet has made it clear in multiple forum posts that they don't mind gaming mice and keyboards and they don't autodetect them.  What they do say is any macro should consist of one and only one command.  If you are doing more than one, you are juggling nitro so just don't.  Yes this means that it's difficult to multibox the game effectively.

Could someone with a handicap, who is using macro/automation just to be able to play PC games, get caught up in the sweep?   I can easily believe that.  Is ANet targeting them specifically, no.

So which headline is more truthful "Handicapped players caught in ArenaNet's bot sweep" or "ArenaNet is banning handicapped players"?  The second one has a wee bit more negative spin to it.

[Valjean]

Could someone with a handicap, who is using macro/automation just to be able to play PC games, get caught up in the sweep?   I can easily believe that.  Is ANet targeting them specifically, no.

That's what I'm inclined to believe as well. I don't think ANet, or even NCsoft is so callous (or ignorant) as to willfully target the handicapped. But I can believe that folks got swept up during a mass purge. And from what I've heard, they're caught, proving their innocence is harder than it ought to be, no matter how valid the situation. They're probably going to be a fair number of folks who have to deal with wave after wave of CSR's who don't know what they're doing until it's finally resolved.

[FatherXmas]

Well it's not like they can send ANet a doctor's note or that there is an online agency that issues virtual handicap placards that game companies can check.

[Nafaustu]

Well it's not like they can send ANet a doctor's note or that there is an online agency that issues virtual handicap placards that game companies can check.

I'm actually not sure if this is sarcasm or not.  :D

As one of those CSR-type folks listed above I'd actually be sort of surprised if they didnt accept (or consider) some kind of credentialed exception.

[Beltor]

I have a severe disability that affects my hands. I have trouble using a mouse. Most of that trouble has been remedied when i got a touch screen monitor recently. But before that i'd try to use a program that allowed me to use a flight stick to operate the mouse. It helped a lot but many MMO's would kick me, ban me, or prevent me from logging in if it was running, notably those run by Perfect World Entertainment. One of the reasons i stayed with COH was because the keybind and macro system helped me keep up with other players. GW2 has a good keybind system but no macro system. This isn't a problem for me thanks to my touch screen but without it, i'd have a lot of trouble. The program i use to manipulate the mouse with a flight stick called Joystick2Mouse, looks like it was made for RMT spammers, although i've never used it that way. It's a tricky situation due to spammers and botters. I hate RMTers and botters but also know the trouble of trying to play an MMO that isn't made for some disabilities.

Ask me anything about this and i'd be happy to answer and discuss.

[FatherXmas]

I'm actually not sure if this is sarcasm or not.  :D

As one of those CSR-type folks listed above I'd actually be sort of surprised if they didnt accept (or consider) some kind of credentialed exception.

Not sarcasm, just how would a game company go about to verify medical credentials?  Internationally?  That's why I pointed out that their might be need of a centralize service that all game companies that face this kind of dilemma could use.  Plus it could allow gamers to get certified ahead of time and have it noted on their account.

[TimtheEnchanter]

They wouldn't be the first gaming company to be discrimatory, Blizzard has banned players for using third party applications and Funcom pretty much told hearing impaired players "That's too bad" when they complained about missions in TSW requiring you to listen for clues in order to progress.

That's pretty pathetic... converting aural cues to visual ones in a video game would be pathetically easy.

[Xieveral]

That's pretty pathetic... converting aural cues to visual ones in a video game would be pathetically easy.

They added subtitles for one of the earlier investigation missions involving talking ravens but that mission had complaints from many sides because the birds would speak all at once in most cases so it probably wasn't a fix to accommodate the hearing impaired.

They won't budge on other missions because it "gives things away" or some other nonsense.

[Beltor]

In the US, it's law to make things handicap accessible. GW2 is very adaptable for me specifically and i don't play TSW. I wouldn't say anything anyway. I prefer to adjust things on my end so as not to interfere with others gaming experience. But they'd better be careful. Others would make a 'big' deal out of a "That sux. Sorry" attitude from the management and developers. And NCSoft is finding out what bad PR can do.

[mikenovember]

In the US, it's law to make things handicap accessible. GW2 is very adaptable for me specifically and i don't play TSW. I wouldn't say anything anyway. I prefer to adjust things on my end so as not to interfere with others gaming experience. But they'd better be careful. Others would make a 'big' deal out of a "That sux. Sorry" attitude from the management and developers. And NCSoft is finding out what bad PR can do.

As someone who's worked software localization and globalization (including accessibility) for some major software releases in the past I should probably correct you on a few things.

Yes, it's true the US has a number of laws regarding accessibility - but almost none of them would actually apply to software due to the type of product, unless the software specifically says it's accessible. 

Software is a product - you purchase it.  It's a choice you make, and it's presumed that you are aware the product will not work for you, and if it does not, the only laws which would technically apply is that they would most likely be forced to refund your money.    No software company is 'forced' to make a software product handicapped accessible.  Just as GM isn't forced to manufacture a version of its cars for blind people, and most music producers aren't forced to make a version of their albums for the deaf.

Now, having said that... MOST - Almost ALL - software companies are not stupid.  Accessibility means more users, and when you design for accessibility you wind up with extremely loyal users studies have shown over and over.  It's also really good PR, so all in all, MOST software is generally designed with minimal accessibility standards just simply because it makes sense to do so.

Now, some - like The SecretWorld - have experimented with conceptual ideas like having these very immersive systems which require sound or visual cues to play.  It's a very cool concept to immerse the player.  (Immersion is like bow ties to these people - it's 'cool'.)

I just recently downloaded and attempted to get through several levels of The SecretWorld this last weekend. 

I could write a small book on the subject of its many usability failures - let alone it's accessibility failures (which there are several as well).  Overall, I was impressed with the goals of the people who created it, their sincerity in wanting to create a very immersive world for players... it's an RP lovers game though. 

Those who want something more, or want to create their own mythos within their lore - will be disappointed.  They've done a nice job of creating a solid lore and background - but it's too nice a job.  It's too well defined, and your roles are too well enforced through the play so you're forced into their world.  You're forced into the experience, which even if it's a good one... it's a limiting factor that grates.    It may be great eye candy on one level - but it's also very hard on graphics cards (it tells me it won't even play on mine - although it does). 

This is not a game about including users - it's a game which directs users and places them into an experience of the designers choosing. 

Usability - the controls are funky and frankly they're on console design presets ... (why I have no idea).  functionally speaking they're not a huge improvement over DCU if you've played that.  Powers when you get them initially aren't well defined without the audio - - you have a lot of guesswork for what's going on without the audio to the cut scenes for example.  When you do get them - you start with a weapon (which... I'm forced to take for protection even if I don't want a weapon, I don't care if it works with the game's story line - - like I said before, it's a 'their way or the highway' approach to getting you immersed).   You gain abilities quickly but the explanation for what they are or why, or how you acquired them, etc., isn't so much a ability as a predefined evolution. 

This does improve - but it's a question of immersing you in the game.  In many ways, it's more like a console game than an MMO when it comes to immersion.  This isn't a bad thing, it's just an observation. 

But that's the core most likely for their decision to ignore accessibility is their desire to 'immerse' the player.    You can, immerse players and still make a game accessible.  But that requires conscious decisions artistically to provide alternatives and they don't want you to have an alternative - they want you to have 'that' experience. 

If you can't ... well... the expectation is that like support for mid-level video (as I said, my card works - but it's not supported and you're nagged about this at every login) ... the game isn't designed for you. 

I find these kind of 'artistic' games and 'rp' or immersive gaming experience games to be less fun - and I definitely do not feel wanted or included by them.

(repaired spelling errors made by phone... grrr)