Second me on supporting emulator efforts...
If SWG can have an emulator, why cant we?
Because NCSoft shut down Tabula Rasa players' attempts at one, and there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same here. LucasArts doesn't care about the SWG emulator.
stuff, and...
Perhaps someone will private message you with their private efforts that are not on a public server where NCSoft can see it, find you both, and know where send the Cease and Decist letter they would need to slightly modify from their recent Tabula Rasa squelch experiances. :)
Because NCSoft shut down Tabula Rasa players' attempts at one, and there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same here. LucasArts doesn't care about the SWG emulator.
Perhaps someone will private message you with their private efforts that are not on a public server where NCSoft can see it, find you both, and know where send the Cease and Decist letter they would need to slightly modify from their recent Tabula Rasa squelch experiances. :)
No PM's so far - I thought we had lotsa peeps promising to reverse engineer the server??Not surprised. Realizing an emulator does take much time.
Not surprised. Realizing an emulator does take much time.
Well, if you want it built, maybe you could, you know, do it.
I like PMs... just saying.You've been put on the "PM sending" beta tester list, too bad you can only subscribe to one beta test :D
I would even beta test any PMs as I have a powerful computer and lightening fast internet which could be used for tweaking.
I'm not in a rush though; I know this sort of work is extraordinary in nature.
Putting myself on the list for a PM.This. If it wasn't clear before.
Not surprised. Realizing an emulator does take much time.
Lucas defended the IP until it became funny to him. :)
Also, I thought I read somewhere that, once "fail" to defend the IP, it kind of opens the door, so to speak. Not sure the SWG emulator falls under that, or it just didn't matter against the Bioware/SOE IP issue, which actually involved money. So far, aside from some Internet celebrity, I don't know of anyone profiting from the SW IP without getting explicit permission.
I should add that, if there was a PM list for such a thing, the PM'er should be careful with who they add, as NCSoft has made a concerted effort to infiltrate such organizations during their enforcement operations in the past. Screen previous posts, learn a bit about the people. Do they seem credible? Add only credible sources. Early versions of any such private server are bound to be buggy and problematic, so people that have some technical experience would probably work best until things are stable
As an example of a credible person technically-inclined person, take my account. It's been active for a few months, posts on a wide variety of issues, etc. I work in the tech industry and manage a team troubleshooting several hundred machines daily. I have an established history AND some degree of tech savvy. I'd be a good candidate for said list. Really. Really good.... If such a PM list exists, I should really be put on it, no other questions asked. I'm THAT solid of a candidate- no such PM list would be complete without me. ;)
So, if such a PM list exists, for your own sake, make sure I'm included, ok? :D
Please?
I would love to add my name to such a list among the other here. *sigh* I am having the worst CoV withdrawals.
Of course it would all be very illegal, but after stumbling through my first steps of World of Warcraft (where everyone looks the dam same with the same clothes as you pick up armor), and wearing a tunic with candle drippings that I had to LOOT (not feeling too much like a hero for THAT), if there's anything that will take me back to my beloved game, just count me in.
or Switzerland, which is Europe while not really being Europe, as they kept their neutrality and thus are completely on their own.
I miss my toons more than people!
Imagine I'm pointing and giving you a bodysnatchers scream.
<hikes up pants>
You sayin' yer better'n me?
<spits chaw>
Of course not. I couldn't pick someone as obvious as you dwturducken to use as an example. Your inclusion is practically a given. You're a no-brainer really...
... um... not that you're a no-brainer... I mean... you'd have to be a real dummy to n.. no, I didn't mean YOU were a real dummy... err...
(backs out of the thread slowly)
This is how we're doing this? Seriously? Not to be a jerk, but why have sign up by PM? And what's to prevent an NCSoft employee from signing up this way in order to get the necessary info?
This is how we're doing this? Seriously? Not to be a jerk, but why have sign up by PM? And what's to prevent an NCSoft employee from signing up this way in order to get the necessary info?
Look, I'm all for a private server or better yet some bit of downloadable code that allows me to run CoH on my machine as a single-player game, but don't think that this super secret PM list is going to keep NCSoft from finding out about anything you have going on.
Realistically the only thing that will prevent NCSoft from finding out about, and shutting down, a private server will be: A) it's physically located in a country that doesn't have laws against this and won't cooperate with SK/USA (like Russia?), or B) too much time passes and they simply no longer care.
Now that being said, in a couple of years, when this project is ready, and NCSoft's forgotten all about Paragon City... I hope that I also receive a PM.
I would expect the person(s) spearheading the project to have the sense of mind to invite people they could trust. Take myself for example. Although I've been around since before the first issue, I just recently joined this site. (For nostalgic reasons and also to stay connected with the community since NCSlut closed down the main forums.) And at that, I only have a few posts under my belt. I honestly doubt if I'm anywhere near the first wave of people to get invited to this server. If I even do get invited that is. I just threw my name in the hat, so-to-speak, to show support and on the off chance that someone important recognizes me and I actually DO get invited.
This is how we're doing this? Seriously? Not to be a jerk, but why have sign up by PM? And what's to prevent an NCSoft employee from signing up this way in order to get the necessary info?No, we're not. It started with this paragraph in third post of this thread:
Perhaps someone will private message you with their private efforts that are not on a public server where NCSoft can see it, find you both, and know where send the Cease and Decist letter they would need to slightly modify from their recent Tabula Rasa squelch experiances. :)\
No, we're not. It started with this paragraph in third post of this thread:\
And ever since, this thread turned into what can only be described as a beg-fest.
Let's get some goddamn facts straight:
* This is not a recruitment thread.
* There is no PM list.
* There is no working private server yet.
*Horseman snorts derisively*
And I really think that begging like this is undignified and entirely pointless. If you know the right people and they know your skill set, they will find you when they need it.
Yes, I am a jerk.
Obviously I would love to add my name to this non-existent PM list and effort.
Checking my messages daily, for no particular reason...Seriously guys, it's going to take months. Personally, I figure an announcement for a private server will happen at the anniversary of the shutdown. Be cool. It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Don't know why I'm posting this here since this is NOT a PM list or anything :-X
Checking my messages daily, for no particular reason...
Yes, I am a jerk. No, I'm not being one to you just because I feel like it. I'm being one because a) that's the only way I can think of to get you back to your senses and b) I have a very personal dislike of the "me, me!!!" attitude.
I believe a lot of people are currently going through DTs and this is one of the ways they're expressing it. Any port in a storm, light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. I doubt anyone is thoroughly convinced that BABs is going to suddenly appear sporting a pair of fairy wings and a tutu to sprinkle fairy dust over their computers and magically hook them up to the mother of all emus.
From what I can tell, a lot of these posts are tongue in cheek. I've gotten a giggle out of quite a few, and I know mine was meant that way. I mean really, trading baked goods for a nonexistent invite to a nonexistent project? It's like the ultimate in I Haz Pie.
Is there a PM list for Pie? ;D
Discussing working on such a project on an open forum would be a dumb move of epic proportions. Even trading PMs with unknown parties would be risky, and unless a very specific skill set was needed, there would be no reason to do so. I notice that even the one project that I know of that's trying an open approach has gotten very quiet lately.Honestly, if I had a private server running somewhere, anyone that discussed the possibility of finding a private server in a publicly visible forum like this one would automatically remove themselves from the list of possible invites. Not because I'm a jerk, mind you - not that I'm saying I'm not; draw your own conclusions - but I'd be taking extreme measures to prevent even a hint that the server existed from making its way back to NCsoft.
I may get slammed for that too...
Yes, I am a jerk. No, I'm not being one to you just because I feel like it. I'm being one because a) that's the only way I can think of to get you back to your senses and b) I have a very personal dislike of the "me, me!!!" attitude.
hundreds, if not thousands, of unified voices saying "Me!" Or, more appropriately, "Mine!"
(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/KansasCrawford/Funny%20Pics/nemogulls.jpg)
...I had to, couldn't resist it. :)
play with CodeWalker's dotsI am not sure that kind of erotic talk is appreciated here. ;P
I am not sure that kind of erotic talk is appreciated here. ;P(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/Forum%20Smileys/facepalm.gif)
Ok, here's the plan.
We are going to collect enough money to buy CoH. But we aren't going to buy it. We are going to buy an island that is not currently in any country. Then, we are going to put reverse engineered CoH servers there and market it as our own MMO. It'll be great. We'll be untouchable and spitting in NCSoft's face.
Seriously though, they would make a movie about that. :roll:
Ok, here's the plan.
We are going to collect enough money to buy CoH. But we aren't going to buy it. We are going to buy an island that is not currently in any country. Then, we are going to put reverse engineered CoH servers there and market it as our own MMO. It'll be great. We'll be untouchable and spitting in NCSoft's face.
Seriously though, they would make a movie about that. :roll:
Seriously though, they would make a movie about that. :roll:
I call dibs on Nick Cage playing me.
I thought he already had a role?0
(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/AvengeCOH/nicholas_cage_superman_outfit.jpg)
(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/Forum%20Smileys/Holidays/candy_cane-1789.gif)
He'd totally turn it down to represent this... /e flex2
Dibs on Robert Downey Jr. :p
I call Scarlet Johanson!
For... no reason.
Too late, I already called dibs! :P(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/AvengeCOH/coh_happy_holidays.gif)
Jack Black.
Ok, here's the plan.
We are going to collect enough money to buy CoH. But we aren't going to buy it. We are going to buy an island that is not currently in any country. Then, we are going to put reverse engineered CoH servers there and market it as our own MMO. It'll be great. We'll be untouchable and spitting in NCSoft's face.
Seriously though, they would make a movie about that. :roll:
NCSoft executives don't give a damn about their players. And they have no idea where their players hang out, so all the projects on the Titan Network should be relatively safe.
I debated on whether or not to post this, but it comes from a very reliable source. Others may or may not back me on this, but:I've said it before here, I'll say it again. Any strategy that relies on the incompetence of our enemy is a bad strategy. This would not be a good idea.
I've said it before here, I'll say it again. Any strategy that relies on the incompetence of our enemy is a bad strategy. This would not be a good idea.
...
Okay, now that we've got this thread back on track... what do you have to say?
Yes, I love the PM as well as I've always been a night owl.
I would like a bag of special dark M&Ms please. I find in these dark days of loss that I need theobromine very badly.
I would like a bag of special dark M&Ms please. I find in these dark days of loss that I need theobromine very badly.
I would like a bag of special dark M&Ms please. I find in these dark days of loss that I need theobromine very badly.
nor do I really like dark chocolate.
THIS... is heaven -You know, I've never had those, but the sound really good.
More for me! :D
You gotta try one eabrace, but fair warning: they're highly addictive.
In looking for a pic I just found out you can buy them by from Staples.com for $29.99 for a 12 bar box... now if you'll excuse me, I have some last minute editing to do to my Xmas list.... *inserts mad, maniacal laughter*
Lindt truffles.
THIS... is heaven -
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.blisstree.com%2Ffiles%2F2008%2F06%2Flindt-excellence-chili.jpg)
Did everyone else get the pm that I just did? Because I seem to be all alone on this private CoX server and I need some people to play with.
Kidding!
OK, maybe that was a little mean, but I so want it to be *true*...
I do love me some spicy chocolate and I can do you one better...
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.cari-fit.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F10%2Ffirecracker_bar_web.jpg)
Dark chocolate with chili pop-rocks... its amazing
Their spicy maya bar is great too but no pop rocks ;-;
I'm starting to think that all of these posts that are going off topic are really code claiming on how to enter a CoX private server. And the following off-topic posts are actually people discussing how awesome the private server is.
:o
[...] Well, whether you're a fan of the ponies or not, (and I'm very much not a fan of those irrelevant pony-pics that started popping up on the old CoH board,) it's an interesting case study.
Mind, I personally would revel in playing "keep away" with NCSoft and musical ISPs as an exercise in civil disobedience. Way I see it, the more troublesome we can be, the more eager they'll be to get rid of us. But then, I flirt with "redside" from time to time.
I don't think y'all are gettin' it. NCSoft is doing something *very* strange, and whatever their plan is, no "oh, that'll be just fine, go ahead and run it!" is going to come until and unless it's
a) resurrected in their possession.
b) sold to another who resurrects it.
Excepting those two, the hacked server method is the only way you'll be able to play the game, as NCSoft is simply uninterested (I would suppose that's the best word?) in the small amount of people who would want this, but very interested in not letting the tech/IP back out into the wild.
And *especially* if it's possible to be sold. Giving anyone the ingredients to The Drink for free means you can't sell The Drink formula to anyone else, as it becomes worthless. Or so the thought goes.
...NCSoft is simply uninterested (I would suppose that's the best word?) in the small amount of people who would want this...
Actually, I understand perfectly what you are saying. You see two options. Neither of which NCsoft has shown any REAL interest in doing.
I have yet to understand the reason so many people are saying this.
Actually, I understand perfectly what you are saying. You see two options. Neither of which NCsoft has shown any REAL interest in doing. Let's look at motivation...
a.) NCSOFT RE-OPENS THE GAME. NCsoft isn't going to resurrect CoH while they are still trying to jumpstart their new projects. The only way they's resurrect CoH is if their new project(s) fail miserably, and they are suddenly caught short in total "survivor" mode, looking to keep the money rolling in.
b.) SELLING IT OFF. The other option, selling the intellectual property in its entirety seems to have been completely canned by NCsoft. They seem to think it's a good idea to keep the IP in a headlock, JUST IN CASE enough interest arrises later to revive the IP. (For example, the original Star Trek was cancelled, but later, they had SEVERAL more series, and a couple series of movies...not to mention all the merchandising.)
I was asking about a completely different third option. Has anyone approached NCsoft about the possibilty of BUYING a "license" to run a server(s), in a maintenance state. NCsoft would not need to put in more money to develop new content, but they'd make money from the licensing fees. NCsoft would still own the IP, so that if interest revived to the point of grand money-making schemes (TV, movies, merchandising, whatever), they'd have the rights to it all...but those of us who love the game would still get to play it, in the meantime.
I have yet to understand the reason so many people are saying this. There are over 100 people on this forum alone that want their game back and are actively doing something about it. Over 10,000 people were subscribed to the game right before the sunset announcement. Over 20,000 signed the petition. The game was pulling in well over two million per quarter, upwards of 10 million per year. Given all these things, and the campaigns of the "Save CoH"ers, how can anyone say that not many people want this?100 isn't enough.
I'd like one too :-X
I sincerely, every day, hope I see the words "IT'S SOLD! COMING BACK ONLINE IN MAY 2013! AND ALL YOUR STUFF WILL >>**BE THERE**<<!!!!" and Team Wildcard has saved the day. I honestly do. Well, the exact wording might be different, but you know what I mean. Even if we had to start over, I'd be all over it. I would love to run another Brawler, or make Chillsea again, or redo the Sisters Dawn, as well as Thing of Bigness, Homeslicer, Val The Enchantress, Gruenfeld...
But TW is the hope. If they cannot get it pulled off by some company, then there are only three options: Phoenix, Heroes and Villains, and Hacked Local Servers. Because, mark my words, as an NCSoft business decision, CoH is dead, and a sale is the only way it itself is coming back online, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that, except the four things just mentioned. And for my part... GO TEAM WILDCARD, GET THAT BUYER AND MAKE NCSOFT SELL!!!
Honestly, I don't care about the old characters. I've mourned them, I'm prepared to recreate them.
Tying the sale of personal data or ability to import of our old stuff seems to me to be complicating it more than needs be.
Honestly, I don't care about the old characters. I've mourned them, I'm prepared to recreate them.
Yes, yes! I spent 8 years creating more than two dozen level 50+ characters and another dozen somewhere between 1 and 50 - and I would be ecstatic just to be able to start over making all new characters from scratch in issue 24 CoX.
I would spend *thousands* of dollars to get that!
Not sure if sarcastic or not, but then again, I'm on the fanatical end of the "it's the journey" spectrum.
100 isn't enough.
10000 isn't enough.
20000 isn't enough.
10 million isn't enough.
If any of that WAS enough... then it'd still be up, I'd say. And apparently whatever they were asking was too much, or was intentionally so, or they were being just spiteful/ornery, to let anyone else run it either.
Now, let's say, they simply fired PS and did the maintenance thing. Would we still play it, or would we be so incensed as to what they did to the Devs that we would run away in droves? Hm? Perhaps that's for another topic, but it's important to mention... because even that, which would have saved them the studio costs and therefore make a static, no longer developed game, pure profit, sans the tiny amount of server farm costs. THAT wasn't enough.
Therefore, none of the pertinent numbers were enough, apparently, to keep it running, even at bare bones.
Again, simple numbers and their logic. Doesn't add up for us, but for them. yep. "<the game what's name shall not be mentioned> numbers." That's the mark. And it simply DOES NOT MATTER that #2-#10 combined = <tgwnsnbm> numbers, THIS game didn't get there by itself. And I'm not sure that's the be all end all argument for their closing it, but... there it is.
Business is weird. Weird people run them sometimes and they make really bad decision from the stand point of of the consumer/outsider.
Regardless of why CoH was shut down, the idea that anything OTHER than a complete sale of the IP would allow the game to run again...it's just not gonna be happening, from a business point of view. There's not enough to keep it RUNNING, so licensing/renting it is just... well, if it were possible, it would be ON.
Sure, they'd've still fired the PS staff, but the game would continue, and they'd get their little chunk of change, and we'd all be happy and everything even though it's a sad shame about Posi, WW, and the rest... or would we... I personally don't know. I can see my emotions running either way on staying/going. I would probably look to their guidance as to whether it'd be ok if I played or not, and I'm quite serious when I say a PM from those two at least would go a long way to making my decision.
I sincerely hope that a sale of the IP is made. But I think the Star Trek reference is perhaps the best one out there... in that they'll horde the IP for the off chance they might resurrect the game in some form later. But I don't see years passing where this would work, and I don't see a CoH:TNG happening either.
CoH doesn't work for phones or tablets or consoles... and they and it are now... but who knows if there's a plan for a Phone version of CoH that nobody but NCSoft knew about, and in 6 months, BAM! CoH:Mobile version! Gawd, that'll suck. But that just MIGHT BE THE REALITY. Can any of you say For Sure it is not possible? Nope. And that's why they horde their crap. Either that, or they're meany doodie heads. Maybe some of both right now... :p
But TW is the hope. If they cannot get it pulled off by some company, then there are only three options: Phoenix, Heroes and Villains, and Hacked Local Servers. Because, mark my words, as an NCSoft business decision, CoH is dead, and a sale is the only way it itself is coming back online, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that, except the four things just mentioned.
I know how you feel ... i miss coh and i hope for a server everyday to return the world i so enjoy ... I've searched the net and found this :
http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=244
it's a CoH private server but still in production ... if there where more devs ... i'm sure
it could be done alot sooner ... every bit helps ... the sad part is that now that the retail
game is gone ... it will be alot harder to put the server together ...
it's like the matrix online all over again ... :'(
So, you're saying NOTHING was enough. And where are you getting this information? It seems like you are saying "Well, Z happened so it must have been X + Y." In other words, "The game closed so is must not have been making enough."
What numbers are you talking about? What logic in what numbers looked good "foir them" and bad "for us." So, you are saying their position is that "if a game doesn't do what WoW does, it should be ditched."? So, your basically repeating what you said before with a bit fluffier rhetoric? Still not answering the question.
I'd have to say that making a PROFIT of 10 million a year is good for just about any company. My point (which I will now make non-sub-textually since not many got it before), is that they had to have had a different reason other than "Oh, well, it's just not making enough money anymore." The truth is that is was making a decent amount of change for them. It was running well in the black. They lost money when they closed it down and their quarterly income is missing that (roughly) 2.5 mil. So it being a dead game with too few people interested was not the issues. I understand that if "enough" people were interested it would have stayed open. Because if "enough" people were interested (enough being the number to get them to WoW numbers), they wouldn't need the rest of their games.
So, your stance is "we don't know." Got it.
Again, what isn't enough to keep a game running? 10 mil a year profit? (Yes, actual profit. 10 mil in the black.) I mean, if a game makes the amount it takes to keep maintenance up, and then makes millions beyond that, that is technically "enough" enough to keep it running.
Not only is this, as you said before, off point, but it's completely speculative. Sure, IF this had happened some may have quite, but how many and for how long no one can say. It's really about as moot of a point as you can get. I can make a moot point too. If they pushed CoX in internet advertising and commercials (as wow does), they very well could have been making DOUBLE what they were in the end. All the newcomers to the game were brought in by other players. We did their advertising for them.
I think what people mean by referencing Star Trek is the campaign led by fans in the late 60s to save the series from cancellation. Fans like Bjo Trimble and her husband actually convinced the studio to continue making the series. They had nothing to do with TNG which started in 1987.
I, along with others, believe it is a common misconception that MMOs are losing ground to mobile apps. I think V.V. had a great explanation to that somewhere on here.
Are you just trying as hard as you can to be a pessimist?
"COH IS DEAD... PERIOD. There is NOTHING that will bring it back... well, nothing but The Phoenix Project, HaV, NCSoft selling the IP, or private or hacked servers. But other than that, NOTHING!!!"
The answer is: it's business, but they're not stupid.The proof of their intelligence, or lack of same, remains to be seen.
It's. Just. Buisness.I've got nothing against you at all, but I'm going to tell you what I told someone else on this board.
Sooner people get that, the sooner we can get CoH outta their hands, k?I doubt that. In the end, only two things will pry that IP out of their hands: 1) Money, and 2) Timing.
And notice, I said when. I still believe. Regardless of what I'm speculating, theorizing, etc. I am one of the hopeful masses that thinks CoH will again be on the air, so to speak.
How dare you derail the tread by returning to the original topic......shame!I know, right? So silly of me. Heh.
...is better than Cat6e twisted pair.
---
Well, I can understand not liking the phrase. I also don't like "I was following orders" either, but the difference between harming people with bullets or such because some higher up said so in violation of human decency, much less Geneva conventions, is quite a bit larger a thing to hate upon than the Business Phrase.
But when it comes to the runnings of a company, the Phrase is what Companies do. Ethics, emotions, etc, doesn't matter. Ok, ok, yes they do, but only with two things: Laws to comply with, and will it cause loss of business. If those are satisfied, then this happens: "Gotta do business. Yay, doing business. More business, do more profit. Yay more money. Oohh... this isn't doing business, making money. Can't do business like that no more (whyever that's the case)." And then the dreaded Phrase shows up, and something gets turned off/canceled/stopped production/?. And that's the way of the business of Capitalism... or more correctly a For Profit Business. So many other stories of ethical/emotional opposition to the ways of Business practicing are out there. This is but one of many.
And I will say this: If you run a business of any large import... these are the things you will have to deal with. Unpopular choices to save the buisness. It does happen. It will happen. If you have never done it, then you don't know why it has to happen in the first place, and we get to this point of discussing it. It's a old tale, overall, this Phrase of Business, the details just get changed with each telling.
And it sucks, that Phrase, and that philosophy, and I keep repeating that, and nobody cares to understand or like it. Which is fine, sometimes "that's just people. " :) But For Profit Businesses are in it to make money. Anything else... well, they're not a charity. And that's the bottom line... not a charity, a buisness, for profit, make money... almost like a hungry pig...
---
In order to be a "For Profit" business, it is not necessary to adhere only to the laws and principles of so long as it is legal and profitable.
Except that in the recent "reorganization" notice, wherein NCSoft announces it is selling NCSoft Interactive (NCSoft West) to itself, NCSoft made the official statement that "nothing regarding the selling of CoH has been decided yet" or words to that effect.
It is entirely possible they are lying to us again.
It is also possible that someone higher up than the person who issued the statement that "all options have been exhausted" has made an executive decision that they will see if a buyer more to their liking emerges.
Based on the fact that Team Wildcard is dedicated to leaving no stone unturned, we are operating on the basis that possibility number two is true.
I would also like to say that to be "for profit" it really should be in my best interest as well.
I'm just going to kindly step in here and say to you, Houtex, (hiya!) that you're making and perpetuating the same mistake/deception that fuels that phrase and, more importantly, the wrongs that people following that code commit (I'm not simply referring to a video game being closed down... and not even just a talented team being fired).
In order to be a "For Profit" business, it is not necessary to adhere only to the laws and principles of so long as it is legal and profitable.
More importantly, a business that adheres to more ethical, humane and emotional considerations is not automatically going to be nonprofitable or even not as profitable.
Anyway, the biggest reason why people hate that phrase (and code of conduct) is because there is more than enough profit and wealth to be had without removing the human element. And the complete and utter reality that money is not the be all end all. And that other people, the impact we have on each other and our roles in history and in the future are all important and can be taken into consideration while also lining our pockets and taking care of our families and such.
"It's only business" is a lying phrase born out of laziness by power-gaming, selfish egotists that believe their own hype.
The truth is... there's pretty much nothing more personal than "business"... because "business" is money and money is the lifeblood of modern society...
So, saying "it's only business" is just excusing away the fact that you (the universal business you) are willing to behave like a marauding, savage beast in order to take care of yourself and your own seed, at the cost of anyone and everything else, to the best of your ability (laws and profits, instead of agility and claws/fangs).
:P
So, I found an Emu.....
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.charlespaddockzoo.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F02%2Femu-300x300.jpg)
but I don't think he's going to be much help.
;D
I found some REALLY spiffy emus!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RVZvUJDTUE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RVZvUJDTUE)
So, I found an Emu.....
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.charlespaddockzoo.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F02%2Femu-300x300.jpg)
but I don't think he's going to be much help.
;D
Weren't we going to try to get back to the original topic? Or are we going to keep talking about business?Hey! It's only business! :D
Pay no attention to the fart behind the curtain.Somehow I read that entirely wrong the first time I looked at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSlkO41Y9I4&t=1m27s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSlkO41Y9I4&t=1m27s)Pay no attention to the fart behind the curtain.Somehow I read that entirely wrong the first time I looked at it.
For the first time I have to say what I would love to see is the code released to the general public.
Let it loose so there are 5000 servers out there. Then good luck finding them all.
So are you, like, forcibly restricted from attending events like charity bake sales and church bingos? Y'know, cause they're run by not-for-profit organizations?
One would think, but no, those actually work out to my best interest. Bake sales because they are full of wonderful scrumptious delights and bingo is just fun!
So... has there been any progress on this sort of thing?What's the difficult word in "not public" ?
So... has there been any progress on this sort of thing?
Also, we're still in the process of working on reverse engineering the server, and progress is coming along. As you can imagine, implementing a brand new server from scratch is something that will take a while, but hopefully we'll have something to show for our efforts before too terribly long.
Ah, and one more PSA: Several people noticed that Nemerle's SEGS web site recently went down. There has been some speculation about why, including some rumors of him receiving a cease and desist (C&D) order. I contacted him and he told me that this is not the case; he is simply having some issues with the web host and hopes to have the site back up soon.
Where is this list to get on? I want a PM too!
We were discussing this in my Friday night group, last night. There is still a general malaise as we struggle to find a new game. ATM, we're moving in the direction of Borderlands 2, but that's not a replacement, just a distraction.
When a private replacement goes up, there will, no doubt, be a long line of people ready to sign up.
The sad part is, the closest I can find to CoX in terms of gameplay is WOW. I know it's kind of frowned upon by a lot of people in the CoX community, but it has a similar feel, at least at the lower levels that I can see. It definitely lacks the freedom and creativity of CoX though.
-Until you get top armor, for the first 50-60 levels your characters clothes/armor doesnt match. My healer right now has yellow robes, furry black boots, gloves that look like skeleton hands, brown leather looking shoulder pads, and a neon green viking helmet. Oh....and he is an overweight orange humanoid panda.
I hate to say it, but.. be patient. It's only been 2 months. CoH took 10 years to get where it was. Server code like that is gonna be quite a while.
Just think of the costumes. That alone... All that amount of data just to get one character clothed... yeesh. And then the dynamics of the slots and powers and defenses and this and that... and the AI... and instances...
Yeah. It is gonna be quite a while for a ground start to emulation of semi-decentness for beta testing. If it ever comes about.
/I hope it does. Truly. Options are good. Even if some companies wouldn't like it... :)
Patient I am but it looks even less like its going to happen at this point. When everything began I half expected people to rush to the emulation project but now in addition to emulation we have 2 games being worked on. I know this is going to piss someone off but logic would tell me to work on emulation since it isn't going to take as long as developing an entire game. Because going a year or 2 years without cox just seems maddening and then the 3-5 years that it's going to take to even have an alpha ready game to test is like an eternity.
I sit here now and just ask myself why someone hasn't bought the game yet or why a game company wouldn't sell a project they deemed as a failure.
I guess I just need a morale booster...
Sigh.. I just wish I knew a way to help get this show on the move.
Heroes are Chaotic Good. Otherwise they wouldn't be heroes but Powers Division. :p
[lots of text]You are absolutely correct. Titan will never endorse or support, in any way, the development of an illegal emulator. Tony himself has said as much. However, what we say and do are largely out of their control. Talking as we are likely won't cause any damage. If there are efforts to establish emulation, we're all out of the loop (as you said). But hey, we all like to keep hope.
Totally ignoring the best Good alignment! Just sayin! :pOkay, they would be either Powers Division or super-powered PPD cops. :p
Okay, they would be either Powers Division or super-powered PPD cops. :p
Part of being a hero is Doing The Right Thing. Not neccessarily the same as Doing The Legal Thing.
An owner typically has to show harm. Assuming NCSoft could show ownership of a fan-made CoH service, they would also have to show--specifically--that it has harmed them.
I suppose they could argue that by playing a free game that used to be making money for them, we aren't giving them money anymore by paying for a current game, so that is financially harmful.I don't think that defense works anymore.
But then the defense would bring out a number of witnesses saying: "We wouldn't give you money anyways!"
... And rest assured... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoy4_h7Pb3M)Haha! Perfectly played, good sir! ;D
Wellllllllll according to a french COH lover and blogger, Transgaming, who were responsible for the Mac versions of CoH, only just now, this week got orders to purge all copies of CoH server and source code in their possession from the heads of corporate.
So that's 2 months and six days for things to have....escaped.
Just sayin'.
Wellllllllll according to a french COH lover and blogger, Transgaming, who were responsible for the Mac versions of CoH, only just now, this week got orders to purge all copies of CoH server and source code in their possession from the heads of corporate.
So that's 2 months and six days for things to have....escaped.
Just sayin'.
Wellllllllll according to a french COH lover and blogger, Transgaming, who were responsible for the Mac versions of CoH, only just now, this week got orders to purge all copies of CoH server and source code in their possession from the heads of corporate.
So that's 2 months and six days for things to have....escaped.
Just sayin'.
Wellllllllll according to a french COH lover and blogger, Transgaming, who were responsible for the Mac versions of CoH, only just now, this week got orders to purge all copies of CoH server and source code in their possession from the heads of corporate.
So that's 2 months and six days for things to have....escaped.
Just sayin'.
Oooh...I'm getting a sort of "Beneath the Planet of the Apes" visual of you now.
*runs off to scour for a torrent file or 300...*
/no, not really. I wouldn't know what to DO with it...
//Although just to have a shiny DVD or 20 hanging in a frame, "Here lies CoH Server code, hallowed be its source." Yeah, that'd be really nifty.
I'm getting a sort of "Beneath the Planet of the Apes" visual of you now.
Ever been to Radio City Music Hall?
So... can someone help me here? I am completely clueless at commands and registry stuff.
I tried following the info here: http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8016 but it seems to be worded under the assumption the person reading it already has knowledge of this stuff. I went through did the cd "C:\etc-etc" and all that, went to the registry editor. I think I added the right "Auth" thing. How exactly does this work?
I'm sure someone will post screenshots + descriptions of how to do it when they figure it all out.
First things first:That helps explain much, this is still a huge stepping stone for those of us hoping to see a private CoH/V server! That you have it open source is double cool.
This project is almost 8 years old now, so.. "YEARS earlier" it is not :D
The most important bit: The SEGS project is targeting the client from 2004
What works ? Auth server, Character creation, entering the Map and ... just hanging there by a thread :P
What doesn't ? everything else, of course :)
It took several tries, but I got in. It's primitive, but still awesome!
Thanks, Nemerle, if you're still watching.
I keep getting a fatal error that says "unknown auth protocol 254."
No clue what that means or how to fix it...
So, about how many attempts does it take to connect? I've tried at least a dozen times so far, but no dice.
Also, is the server supposed to be called UNNAMED or did I screw up and end up trying to log in to a non-existent server?
Did you add the "Auth" string to regedit and assign it the correct value? The value should be 77.46.18.50 and it should be under segs_test
Both the "Unnamed" and "unknown auth protocol 254." point in the direction of incompatible client versions.
So what versions are You using fine people ? :)
Simplest possible check :
See if the CityOfHeroes.exe's size is exactly : 3723264 bytes
Yup, and it's obviously a new version of coh :) in all 8 megabytes of its convoluted glory ;)
I think you have the attention of the community.
It would be a wonderful thing in fact if the private server was based off an older version of the game. It would not affect the sales of the newer version if the game was sold but gives a backup in case the game is ever dropped again.
I got it up and running the city looks like it had a blackout. (Very dark and hard to see anything.)
If you change your gamma in options, it'll fix that problem. I had to move mine from 100% --> 60%.
Yeah that doesn't seem to do anything. lol. Not that it really matters that much.
Not sure how to put pictures up on here but here is a link.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7285/coxc.png
Not sure how to put pictures up on here but here is a link.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7285/coxc.png
Oh, got a question:
Looks like Outbreak looks just like the original. Are the construction of the zones saved within the CoH folder?
I believe so, which is why the game is able to play back demorecords. Besides, even after Outbreak was replaced by the Shivan invasion, one could still do Outbreak as a mission in an Ouroboros arc.
Nothing on the segs.nemerle.eu domain loads for me ):
Both the "Unnamed" and "unknown auth protocol 254." point in the direction of incompatible client versions.
So what versions are You using fine people ? :)
i managed to get onto the map to day for just a bit then it crashed ... so it goes ... i know we all are happy that the project is up
but we need to find a way to get devs involved ... i've started with programming but i am still some time away before i can really
get involved ...
i'm to noob here to make such a statement ... should we run a vote ? any ideas how we can pull the attention of the community ?
the street is just the way I remember it.
Yeah, it is.
... is it weird that I want to log in and just stare at that street for a while?
I assumed more from the community would be helping in this issue but I'm not sure how many or if any have yet. I'm attempting to help in some way. I myself would rather see City of Heroes come back and unless someone decides to buy it from ncsoft this looks to be the best option to focus on. In the end the goal was to "Save Paragon City"
i think the idea is to get coh so that we can all
hang together once more ...
Hmm.. I wonder why..Nope, still no joy.
What about redmine.nemerle.eu ?
So....I woke up this morning and was going to check the segs forums to see how to do all this. When i click the links or even google "nemerle segs" i get the "Google chrome can't find this webpage" did we get shut down? or something wrong on my end?
just checked the site now ... seems to be fine however it was down over the weekend
Got in. Made a toon. Stood on place. Loved every minute. My guy wasn't transparent, nor did he slide down the street, but it also wasn't too dark. I know just enough about computers to know that this is a pretty big step. Thanks Nemerle and Segs. :D
This is exciting to read. ;D ;D ;D (I'm not able to try it yet...but I'll live vicariously through you guys for a while)
Taking Sentry's advice, I'm posting this here in hopes that it will not detract from other valiant efforts taking place around these fine forums.
I'm preparing the groundwork for an attack on the Citadel of Input Processing and humbly ask for opinions from my fellow code-tamers.
Should You have a spare 10m I'd be grateful for any input you can provide, on our forums (http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=8129#p8129)
It strikes me that it might be a prudent investment of resources for the Plan Zs to lend a coder or three to this project for a little while. Y'know, as a way to regroup a larger chunk of the playerbase's former size into one place again. It would give us a place to gather with much-renewed spirits, reform the bonds that made us so great, and wait as one for the new games that are being developed. In other words, get back the old game as something to do in the meantime.
It's going to be a long stretch until alphas are released, let alone playable games, and ultimately we'll need more than a forum to ride out that kind of time frame. Titan makes a fantastic headquarters, but most people are only occasionally checking in here. I don't think anybody would disagree that what we all really want is a game to share and enjoy. That's what will carry us the whole distance without further erosion.
Sparing a couple coders for a month or two at this early stage, to help this project succeed, could make a huge difference down the road. Two to three years from now you'd be promoting your games to "tight-knit and enthusiastic" us instead of "sad and wandered away" us.
If nothing else, consider it research for when you get to that stage yourselves. Knowing the quirks and pitfalls of a working system could help you streamline things, or prevent a lot of wasted time on repairs by adapting your approach from the start.
My only objection is that Plan Z has been concerned from the beginning about doing anything potentially illegal. As great as it'd be to see them help with SEGS, it'd also be pretty terrible if that gave NCSoft any sort of foothold to go after Plan Z.
It's probably just my tinfoil hat, but that was the first thing I thought of.
Putting myself on the list for a PM.
Yeah, I only thought about that after posting. I'd never want them to draw trouble to the projects.
Ah well I'm sure it'll work out sooner or later. In the words of the immortal Wham, you gotta have faith-a-faith-a-faith, baybay. ;)
But that was a George Michael song....
My only objection is that Plan Z has been concerned from the beginning about doing anything potentially illegal. As great as it'd be to see them help with SEGS, it'd also be pretty terrible if that gave NCSoft any sort of foothold to go after Plan Z.
It's probably just my tinfoil hat, but that was the first thing I thought of.
Had they actually gone to court I suspect Marvel would've come out on top.
Nope, still no joy.Worked fine to download from a mate's computer.
Don;t worry though 'bout it though, I'll try from a friends computer next weekend.
Then what's to stop them from suing a crayon company for enabling kids to draw pictures of copyrighted characters?
Whether they're on it or not doesn't change the fact that reverse engineering the server is against the EULA we all agreed to every time we played the game. Arguments could be made against that EULA being valid anymore so it probably wouldn't hold up in court, but you'd still be a hundred thousand bucks in legal fees to find that out and I dunno about you or anyone else on the project but I certainly don't have that kind of cash.
And no, to my knowledge neither Plan Z project is using anything from CoH beyond general inspiration.
Another corporation actively selling a product that includes the likeness of your copyrighted characters is quite another matter.
No one is selling anything on a reverse-engineered private server. As far as agreeing to a EULA, I for one am not feeling all that much loyalty to a corporation that threw us so far under the bus that a vortex to another dimension opened under the bus, and now we all find ourselves in a universe without our favorite game. I paid for their game for six years, and they decided they didnt want my money anymore. Me and them are quits; I am not bound to a EULA for A GAME THAT NO LONGER EXISTS.
This discussion seems to me to be getting kind of confused. IANAL, but...
First, the EULA doesn't apply any more. Under the EULA, NCSoft's sole legal remedy for violations was kicking you off the service and cancelling your account. That's moot now.
NCSoft still has a copyright in all the source code (moot, because nobody outside of NCSoft has any of it), the compiled client, and all the files that were included with that, most importantly all the art and music assets. If you redistribute the client, then you could be violating their copyright (could because there are a bunch of steps they'd have to go through in court to demonstrate that it was a violation, and there are some affirmative defenses that could be raised). Under the DMCA they could get a service provider (in a jurisdiction that's covered) to take down the client files you were sharing, basically just by alleging a violation... but that's not the same as proving a violation and again there are some defenses against that. Still, they'd be on pretty solid legal footing if they bothered to pursue it.
NCSoft does not have any right to prevent anyone from providing products that are interoperable with their client code, or to prevent reverse engineering their code in order to provide interoperability. This ranges from things like Vidiot Maps to Sentinel+ to a hypothetical server that would respond to messages from the client as if it were the CoX server engine. This is pretty much settled case-law, and there's a particular carve-out in the DMCA specifically to permit reverse engineering. NCSoft forbade it in the EULA (a common tactic to try to skate around the law permitting reverse engineering is to claim that it's nonetheless forbidden by a contract that the company and the reverse engineer have entered into), but the EULA is now moot.
NCSoft still has a trademark in City of Heroes and various names and images (not all of them, but specific ones that served to identify and promote the brand), but that limits what a hypothetical after-market interoperable server could be called and what images it could use to promote itself so as not to cause confusion in the marketplace over whether it's an official product; it does not actually prevent mentioning the trademark for purposes of comparison (10% less phosphates than Tide) or compatibility (usable with iPhone). And that assumes that somebody actually tries to market a product that works with the old City of Heroes clients...which seems unlikely.
To hell with this legal bullshit. If your going to worry about that you might as well say goodbye to city of heroes forever. Get a dedicated server in a country where they cant do anything about it and put the server there. We might have high pings but damn, lets not quit now over some legal bs.
My hopes were high to stomp some rikti and run some incarnate trials again but posts like this make me feel the knife is in my back already.
No knives are in your back, we just have some Nervous Nellies who are worried about obeying a EULA for a game that no longer exists.
This is like saying: "Free party at my place next Saturday, BYOB and let's paaaar-tay!"
Someone else: "But what if someone brings Absolut vodka and Absolut decides to sue, because they did not approve our party first?"
Party host: "How will they know? Absolut headquarters is on another continent, and I didn't invite them anyways."
[I have no idea where Absolut is headquartered, just making a point.]
Meanwhile, keep on keepin' on, many of us wish we could do more to help you. Unfortunately what i DONT know about computers would fill several libraries. 8)
Flying around one of the original Atlases will be nice.Oh man...that sounds so cool to me right now.... :(
Oh man...that sounds so cool to me right now.... :(
Enter options, go to keyboard settings, choose 'Dev' from dropdown, apply.Nope, although now I can look around.
'F2' should do it's job now.
Nope, although now I can look around.
It may be Win8 at fault. My character is transparent to boot.
Everyone's character is transparent on the SEGS server...nemerle is working on it. Considering nem is doing this solo, I gotta give credit for where it is right now.No, I mean during character creation, I'm transparent.
No, I mean during character creation, I'm transparent.
Yeah, every stage of seeing the actual character is transparent. It's a graphical bug. He's actually looking to see if anyone at all is able to get the graphics loading properly. So far I don't think anyone has been able to.
I'd say titan should opensource the code just for the immortal status, Just because anyone monitoring the Private Server program probably has a good idea that Titan's server would be the best place to try first. Then the C&D order won't really have any weight to it.
Though i have to ask, is there anyway we could use a "Cleaned up" non "Spaghetti" code? Meaning, a code that is technically not NCsoft's, but can still be used for CoH with little to no bad effects?
The problem is, Titan, officially, doesn't have a server. Let alone the code. So far as we all know. And even if they did, I don't think it'd be a good idea for them to opensource it, simply because if they were to do that, NCSoft would have open season on them.
Nem is looking for someone who gets the graphics to load properly?...Well I dunno about properly, but my character, at the very least, is solid during the character creation.
The problem is, Titan, officially, doesn't have a server. Let alone the code. So far as we all know. And even if they did, I don't think it'd be a good idea for them to opensource it, simply because if they were to do that, NCSoft would have open season on them.
Listen, i think we can require the legal rigths about "Architect" Mishes that we created. Please, chek it .Most likely not. Copyright does not qeual control, and as far as I understand it we consented to give NCSoft a license to use the missions when we submitted them - but they were under no obligation to store or preserve that content.
In fact, NCSoft would be more inclined to just wipe the data from their servers - that is, of course, assuming they haven't done it already - as that would remove the subject matter of any ownership claims you or anyone else may file.
Friend tells me they were hit by a trojan trying to download one of the files linked here. Not sure what the deal is with that but best everyone be very careful in any reguard.
I am not particularly adept at malware-fighting; last time I had a major problem with one, I spent most of a week's worth of spare time hunting down precisely what it was by file name, locating it using an anti-virus scanner (that couldn't remove it, just find it), and then hunting on google for a solution. That particular one required me to root-kit my own PC, reboot into a mode the root kit could open, delete the program, then reboot again, bypass boot-up with the root kit to get to it a second time before it could copy itself as part of the boot process, and finally delete it and its installer out of my registry and my hard drive while the root kit held my computer in a barely-running, access-your-files-with-no-security-against-screwing-up-at-all state.
I then had to reboot it a penultimate time, still bypassing things, to make sure it was gone. Finally, I could reboot it normally.
Oh, and the root kit had to be renamed to something other than its actual file type or the virus would delete the root kit before I could reboot my computer. I forget the precise way I had to go about activating said rootkit to get around that.
Let me tell you: I was leery of using a root kit; what if I was giving control of my computer to somebody else? Fortunately, I did research it carefully and identified a place that had a lot of positive recommendations from well-thought-out posters and was backed up by references from outside sources, and it did work. So my computer was mine again. But holy cow was that a lot of work. x_x
(This was a few years ago, now.)
Malwarebyte should be on every single system.That was part of the second step in the process. I got it after my antivirus found it. Malwarebyte let me boot into safemode so the root kit could get installed. If I had the root kit installer as a .exe outside of that, it would be deleted before I could use it.
It is without doubt the best removal tool I have ever used. Boot into Safemode and run Malwarebyte and it will clean almost anything.
I am not particularly adept at malware-fighting; last time I had a major problem with one, I spent most of a week's worth of spare time hunting down precisely what it was by file name, locating it using an anti-virus scanner (that couldn't remove it, just find it), and then hunting on google for a solution. That particular one required me to root-kit my own PC, reboot into a mode the root kit could open, delete the program, then reboot again, bypass boot-up with the root kit to get to it a second time before it could copy itself as part of the boot process, and finally delete it and its installer out of my registry and my hard drive while the root kit held my computer in a barely-running, access-your-files-with-no-security-against-screwing-up-at-all state.
I then had to reboot it a penultimate time, still bypassing things, to make sure it was gone. Finally, I could reboot it normally.
Oh, and the root kit had to be renamed to something other than its actual file type or the virus would delete the root kit before I could reboot my computer. I forget the precise way I had to go about activating said rootkit to get around that.
Let me tell you: I was leery of using a root kit; what if I was giving control of my computer to somebody else? Fortunately, I did research it carefully and identified a place that had a lot of positive recommendations from well-thought-out posters and was backed up by references from outside sources, and it did work. So my computer was mine again. But holy cow was that a lot of work. x_x
(This was a few years ago, now.)
As you say, it's your computer. Me, even if I was 100% positive that something was safe, I wouldn't make that promise because there's no way I could be sure a) the guy making the claim didn't already have a busted computer and was scamming me, b) that he didn't foolishly download something else, or otherwise get some malware on his machine, which he is incorrectly attributing to what I know was safe, and c) that his machine didn't just suffer a hardware failure and he doesn't know any better.
I'm certainly not spending the additional time and money to come see his device and verify, even if I were 100% confident in my ability to accurately diagnose it.
Since I am very careful about what I download, I suspect the malware got in from a banner ad or something. I've since installed adblock+; I don't know if that made a difference, as I'd only had the problem the once anyway, but it hasn't repeated. Also, the less crowded web pages ARE nice.
Worse, I'm given to understand there are exploits to trick a browser into auto-executing a malware installation via the code that makes a banner "work." Since banners can have motion, interactable flash, and even (ugh) sound, they do load things into your machine's active processing.Yep.
For what it's worth, I can safely claim that all of our software is safe. And we've always hosted our own files, so unless we get compromised in a very specific manner, links to our software should be safe. I've gotten to where I absolutely loathe free download sites like CNet, Sourceforge, etc., specifically because of this reason, that they hide download links and have big, obnoxious banners and buttons that say "DOWNLOAD HERE!!!" that link to apps that are from advertisers, not what you're actually trying to download. Definitely be VERY careful when downloading software off of a third-party web site.
Worse, I'm given to understand there are exploits to trick a browser into auto-executing a malware installation via the code that makes a banner "work." Since banners can have motion, interactable flash, and even (ugh) sound, they do load things into your machine's active processing.
Ah yes got Firefox about two months ago and no more ads not even on Youtube videos. I dont even bother with IE anymore. Looking back, not sure how did I manage with that or what was I thinking even using that with all the security holes IE had that seemed to get bigger with each update. Today, I'm going to even delete it off my computer totally and finally get rid of that symbol.
Mozilla Firefox + NoScript + AdBlock Plus + Flashblock + Ghostery = happy Web browsing. You may need to do some manual enables to use your trusted sites, but you won't get any of that auto-executing crap.
No, you want to keep IE. There are some things that will not work in anything else. (A fair number of government form sites.) They're not common, but WHEN you run into one - and you will - you'll be glad all you have to do is gnash your teeth and use IE rather than having to struggle and hope you can find a work-around.
Ah yes got Firefox about two months ago and no more ads not even on Youtube videos. I dont even bother with IE anymore. Looking back, not sure how did I manage with that or what was I thinking even using that with all the security holes IE had that seemed to get bigger with each update. Today, I'm going to even delete it off my computer totally and finally get rid of that symbol.
I haven't used anything newer than Server/Exchange 08, but the OWA worked much better in IE than in other browsers.
Hm
Technically you can't "remove" IE, because MS in their infinite wisdom tied the thing into Windows. You can hide the shortcut, but you have to work quite hard to actually remove it (it is possible, but it is not for the faint of heart).
This is not accidental. It will automatically degrade the functionality of OWA unless you are using IE. More MS wisdom. :D
I know it was deliberate, but it is a necessary evil if you have a MS domain account and can't afford a copy of Outlook.I don't have any MS domain accounts thank goodness.
I didn't get any troubling 'ware from SEGS, but my son ended up with the searchnu hijacker on his laptop that survived a reset to factory defaults from the recovery partition. Nothing I could do would remove it. Fortunately, it was limited to Chrome, so I just uninstalled it and put Firefox on. And removed his install privileges.
I used to be really good at removing malware, but these hijackers are getting into places that I can't seem to reach. And, yes, I checked forums. That particular hijacker cost me the better part of a day.
Technically you can't "remove" IE, because MS in their infinite wisdom tied the thing into Windows. You can hide the shortcut, but you have to work quite hard to actually remove it (it is possible, but it is not for the faint of heart).
You can't actually remove it completely without graunching the help functionality -- the .chm (compiled Windows help) files use the IE rendering engine for presentation. If you remove the rendering engine, you lose the ability to get help in any program that uses the Windows Help structure.
Mozilla Firefox + NoScript + AdBlock Plus + Flashblock + Ghostery = happy Web browsing. You may need to do some manual enables to use your trusted sites, but you won't get any of that auto-executing crap.NoScript + AdBlock Plus + RequestPolicy here. NoScript makes Flashblock redundant.
NoScript + AdBlock Plus + RequestPolicy here. NoScript makes Flashblock redundant.
Almost, though I do like being able to control when and what Flash plays on trusted sites. If you don't want Flash at all then NoScript will handle it fine.
Malwarebyte should be on every single system.
It is without doubt the best removal tool I have ever used. Boot into Safemode and run Malwarebyte and it will clean almost anything.
Youtube does have that annoying habit of autoplaying too.
YouTube will autoplay videos on its site, which is a known thing that you can allow for. More annoying to me are the news sites that will sometimes have an embedded video from a completely unrelated story on a page that's set to autoplay, so if you browse news sites like I do -- read down the page, peruse the links to related stories, and open the ones that sound interesting in new tabs -- and have to flip through six or seven tabs, scrolling each one up and down to find which one is playing the запупу конская video...
... запупу конская ...
Just found this thread.. Been out of it for a while. I miss coh a lot. Any new news?
It is still nice to pop in old Atlas occasionally, though :)
Need to find out how to do that.
It's nice when you can get movement in SEGS to work- though I've got that graphics bug that other people seem to be reporting. Can't wait to see it get developed further. Idealy we'd be able to play on an at-shutdown Beta version of the game, but hey, I4 isn't bad! I have a lot of fond memories of the game back then. So it'd still be a lot of fun.
Still, being able to "log in" and slide around Atlas for a bit is kind of fun in it's own dumb way.
More than happy to slide around AP :). Have they figured out how to transfer zones and go to other places yet?
Negative Ghost Rider, you are confined to Atlas for the time being...
Aww that's to bad... but I'll take what I can get! It'd be nice to be on again. (heeehee Ghost Rider)
Also it'll be interesting to see earlier stuff (I think it's i4, as I recall). I joined in issue 16 (just before issue 17 actually), and I never saw some of the really early things, like pre power proliferation or pre ED
Aww that's to bad... but I'll take what I can get! It'd be nice to be on again. (heeehee Ghost Rider)It's interesting to see costume creator back then, and lots of other semi-trivial like stuff thats changed.
Also it'll be interesting to see earlier stuff (I think it's i4, as I recall). I joined in issue 16 (just before issue 17 actually), and I never saw some of the really early things, like pre power proliferation or pre ED
There's not really much to see pre-power proliferation actually. Most of the power sets were simply limited to specific ATs, and that's about all there was to it.
Pre-ED on the other hand is very different from what we had at shut down. Granted, 6-slotting damage SOs, while sounding great in theory for when you manage to actually hit something, is just plain bad build planning for most attacks/builds in general.
ED was part one of a two step approach of getting us all to stop 6-slotting all of our powers with only one enhancement type so we could actually have semi-balanced builds that could function reliably. Part two of course being IOs...
The issue wasn't six-slotting damage, it was six-slotting recharge in powers that were intended to be situational. Perma-Hasten was so easy that there was no reason not to do it, especially with six-slotted Stamina giving you more Endurance than we get post-ED. Or perma-MOG, or perma-Unstoppable, or pumping out 3 sets of pets at once...
Don't get me wrong, I would totally play a pre-ED CoH. Because I loved the game back then, too. :) But ED was a necessary step in making the powers' behavior predictable enough to be able to add new powersets and archetypes and make them balanced against what was already in the game.
Pre-ED on the other hand is very different from what we had at shut down. Granted, 6-slotting damage SOs, while sounding great in theory for when you manage to actually hit something, is just plain bad build planning for most attacks/builds in general.
You could exploit a very tight niche with a Scrapper by taking Focused Accuracy and six-slotting it for to-hit and end reduction so you could run it continuously, using that to take care of the missing Accuracy in your attacks, letting you six-slot them all for damage (or whatever mix of Damage, End, and Recharge you liked) without having to throw Acc into the mix. Doing it this way, of course, had the drawback that if you exemped down below the level at which you could use Focused Accuracy, your combat effectiveness dropped into the toilet.
That was a part of the reason as well, but when you get right down to it, the reason was quite simply that players were intentionally 6-slotting all their powers with a single enhancement type which varied depending on the power, which while great in theory could inadvertently gimp your build, and in some cases could greatly imbalance your build in ways the Developers never intended.
I used 6-slotting with damage for my example simply because without accuracy enhancements you'll almost never hit anything, and that's one of the things that the developers wanted to steer people away from.
I know theres no timeline for this segs server or anything, is there anything that can be done to help it move along? I just cant get into anything else!! Champions isnt even close to filling the void, neither is star wars. Its not like there is a whole lot out there to compensate for CoH, either the game is decent and the community sucks, or well i could go on and on, im sure just about everyone feels close to the same way. Let me know if theres anything i can do...thx
See, this makes me look at the enhancement system at around the time I joined and wonder why ED got so much hate. While I can understand why someone might want to six slot recharge, damage, accuracy etc etc etc, it feels kind of... idk... game breaking to me. That's just my not-so-informed-opinion, but I'd much rather have limits to what I can do with enhancements to make build-making more intuitive and give more challenge to the game.
The second problem with ED was the way Jack communicated it to the public, he was kind of a unicorn at delivering news that was going to create a backlash.
There was a reason a bunch of people were happy when Jack left the game... Suffice to say, ED was necessary, but it could have been handled much better than it was, and Jack didn't seem to be helping matters much.
Much much better.
How exactly did Jack handle it, out of curiosity? I came in post-Jack, so all I've heard are rumblings
as I recall he said there would be no more nerfs.
then he pulled ED on us and tried to blame the community, saying we thought of it.
and as said above, ED and inventions should have came in the same issue. would have lessened the pain very much.
as I recall he said there would be no more nerfs.
then he pulled ED on us and tried to blame the community, saying we thought of it.
and as said above, ED and inventions should have came in the same issue. would have lessened the pain very much.
Logged into swgemu recently, damn... I just think to myself why the hell couldn't we have had this? Soon an nge server will be out for those that want to play the games final publish (what I'm actually looking forward to) I had stopped playing swg long before it's announced shutdown due my dislike with how they were handling new content; I didn't like how alot of cosmetic options were being put into random cards in that tcg game along with many other long time asked for items.
My gosh, I know we have folks committed to getting two different mmos going but I really just wish the effort was going towards an emulator. In my humble opinion, I'd much rather play issue 23 or 24 city of Heroes than play 2 more games. I have hard enough of a time picking what to play now with the huge number of mmos out. And sadly I fear that when "phoenix" or "heroes and villains" is out I'll have an even harder problem. Should official city of heroes servers come back before then or a private server for Cox come out before then, it will easily be a no brainer for me to go back to what I'm missing.
One thing I that needs to be said regarding other games. If you LOVE the game you are playing right now I URGE you to get people started making an emulator for it right now while the game is still healthy so when the day comes you won't be stuck without it like we are with city of heroes.
Bottom line: I don't want anyone else to have to feel the pain I'm feeling right now.
I made this account purely to keep an eye on this thread, since I recently was reintroduced with the annoying fact that my CoH character is no longer available to me.
I was wondering, would some high density social network be a good platform to draw some attention to this project?
On one hand you want to introduce some tech saffy people to the project while on the same time wish to keep things low profile.
Seeing as CoH has been abandoned and no 3rd parties seem to be interested in picking it up, going public might cause the following:
1: Envoke the wrath of an unknown 3rd party that had plans with the product.
2: Causes CoH to become an interesting product and causes 3rd parties to get involved in purchasing it.
3: Nothing happens because no company is interested, including the original one because suing some freetime coders is too costly.
Is it an idea to seek out social media websites for more spotlight for the project?
Even if there are no 3rd parties are interested in buying CoH, NCsoft will absolutely do its best to shut down any private server projects. SEGS has been lucky so far, I believe the only thing keeping them safe at this point is the fact that they are building a very, very old version of CoH and it is currently very unstable. If it got much farther along I'd caution them to expect a cease & desist in the mail very soon.
If an up to date (i23 or 24) went public with development efforts I believe NCsoft would mercilessly hunt them down then lawyer them to oblivion.
Good. Let them. Hard to shut down something that's been spread across the internet and torrented.
I've been away from these forums for a long while and I thought I'd check in. It's May already and I'm still having CoX withdraw from time to time... even have dreams about it in my sleep. I think I'm at the point where the long-term effects of what NCsoft did us, the devs, and the game itself are my now unwillingness to ever invest in an MMO again be it financially and/or emotionally. I'm done, I'm just literally done. I play around with Star Trek and Champions occasionally as a free player, but my heart is never into it. Any time a friend or acquaintance tries to talk about new MMO's coming or just the genre in general, I find myself being an absolute buzzkill for them and I don't mean to but the reality of our situation still stings and people who were not informed or aware of how deep the damage goes on a plethora of levels need to be made aware lest the publisher of their game decide to be a complete asshat one day.
So yes, I would very much love to see a private server running the final build on even a semi-functional level one day. I might not derive the same satisfaction I got from my actual investment of the real service, but it might offer some closure and still give me something to have some fun with.
So, still nothing we can play?
I have zero knowledge of who, what or where just that it is quietly being worked.
I look at it differently, if I had the skills to reverse engineer a game, I would do the work and then post the code in the wild.
A wild code appeared!
But seriously, I think I'd do the same. My plan is to keep a close eye on everything, use SEGS when I want to look at AP, us icon to build characters, and keep searching for any info that might be out there.
[Not the Skunkworks that used to build planes, natch. Altho they were awesome too. EDIT: Ooops. They are still building planes.]Life on that campus is interesting, to say the least.
Same here, hope to find/hear something soon... :gonk:
It may just be me, but I don't use Icon nearly as much as I thought I would. I have both the regular and dev version shortcuts on my desktop, still have both Live and Beta clients ready to go, but I just never touch Icon. I think knowing I can't play after creating just completely zaps my creativity when it comes to new characters.
Whoooaaa how do you get the dev shortcuts? Or the live client? I've only been able to get the beta client so far...
And yes I hope to find something soon :gonk:
It may just be me, but I don't use Icon nearly as much as I thought I would. I have both the regular and dev version shortcuts on my desktop, still have both Live and Beta clients ready to go, but I just never touch Icon. I think knowing I can't play after creating just completely zaps my creativity when it comes to new characters.
Yeah, that's the problem I have. I thought I'd enjoy Icon a lot more, but designing the initial appearance and deciding on primary/secondary power sets of a brand-new character was only the first step, and I can't do any of the other steps.
And those other steps (particularly the step involving trying out the power sets I picked against a wide variety of enemies over a long period of time) are the ones I enjoyed far more than just making a character's first (and rarely final) costume.
It's frustrating. The urge to play CoH is not fading over time. It's getting stronger and stronger as I'm forced to play more of the competition. It really was the perfect game for me (even if the game was not perfect in and of itself), and as good as the CoH community is, I mainly want the game back.
Yeah, that's the problem I have. I thought I'd enjoy Icon a lot more, but designing the initial appearance and deciding on primary/secondary power sets of a brand-new character was only the first step, and I can't do any of the other steps.This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.
And those other steps (particularly the step involving trying out the power sets I picked against a wide variety of enemies over a long period of time) are the ones I enjoyed far more than just making a character's first (and rarely final) costume.
This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.
We will take these into consideration as we plan our the precise development order of things with the character builder for the Phoenix Project, and how it develops going forward towards the base builder.
This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.
We will take these into consideration as we plan our the precise development order of things with the character builder for the Phoenix Project, and how it develops going forward towards the base builder.
I know that, for me, I had about five minutes of "fidgetting." I had to go through and accept all the veteran's rewards (not a chore, just a necessary housekeeping routine), "fix" my interface, and then organize my powers in the tray. Now, it's not that I had to do these things, but I could! I think that's one of the things that bugs me about so many other games is not so much that I have to get used to a new interface, but I can't adjust the interface to be more comfortable to me. Now, my original layout was born of having a smaller, regular aspect ratio screen compared to what I have now, but I have yet to find an game with an interface as intuitively adaptable.
This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.After popping into Galaxy or Atlas, the very first thing I always did was take a toon for a [walk]. If it looked goofy while walking, I'd head to Icon and adjust stuff until it looked good or needed to be deleted/re-created. Also, colors in the costume creator looked different in sunny Atlas. Light red, for instance, would suddenly be pink (or at least too pink-ish).
We will take these into consideration as we plan our the precise development order of things with the character builder for the Phoenix Project, and how it develops going forward towards the base builder.
I know that, for me, I had about five minutes of "fidgetting." I had to go through and accept all the veteran's rewards (not a chore, just a necessary housekeeping routine), "fix" my interface, and then organize my powers in the tray. Now, it's not that I had to do these things, but I could! I think that's one of the things that bugs me about so many other games is not so much that I have to get used to a new interface, but I can't adjust the interface to be more comfortable to me. Now, my original layout was born of having a smaller, regular aspect ratio screen compared to what I have now, but I have yet to find an game with an interface as intuitively adaptable.One thing that I have noticed from seeing screenshots that other people have taken of their characters, just about everyone had a different layout for their interface. I had my power trays along the top, the right side, and the right half of the bottom of the screen. I've seen other people with their power trays on the top and left of the screen. What works for me doesn't always work for someone else.
If I'd ever said "okay, there's NO way I can justify making this toon WITHOUT this Barbarian belt", I probably would've paid NC more of that money they were always salivating over.
After popping into Galaxy or Atlas, the very first thing I always did was take a toon for a [walk]. If it looked goofy while walking, I'd head to Icon and adjust stuff until it looked good or needed to be deleted/re-created. Also, colors in the costume creator looked different in sunny Atlas. Light red, for instance, would suddenly be pink (or at least too pink-ish).
The biggest problem with the Costume Creator was all the locked gear. I never understood why NC wouldn't give us the chance to try on new gear especially since they sold all that gear seperately.
If I'd ever said "okay, there's NO way I can justify making this toon WITHOUT this Barbarian belt", I probably would've paid NC more of that money they were always salivating over.
It's frustrating. The urge to play CoH is not fading over time. It's getting stronger and stronger as I'm forced to play more of the competition. It really was the perfect game for me (even if the game was not perfect in and of itself), and as good as the CoH community is, I mainly want the game back.
As time passes, the enormity of what we all lost weighs ever more heavily upon me.
I would say that losing CoX has been one rung below the time I lost my best friend ever at age 10, because we moved out of state. This was a sentinel event in my life, and one I never really got over. My family moved every six months, often from state to state so as you can imagine, I quickly learned not to bond with others too much because it was just too painful.
I let myself become bonded to this game, to experience a similar sense of terrible loss when it was all ripped away with no warning. Please God, this cannot happen again. I just want to be somewheres I love, and feel safe within that little game-world. The real world is unsafe enough.
Can you think of any other features that would be useful in a character creator?
This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.
We will take these into consideration as we plan our the precise development order of things with the character builder for the Phoenix Project, and how it develops going forward towards the base builder.
Can you think of any other features that would be useful in a character creator?
Man, that last part seems to be what is defining this community (CoH refugees at large, not just here at Titan). These feelings aren't fading, they're getting stronger if anything. At this point I think a majority of us would have moved on, myself included, but a day doesn't pass that I wish I could log in.
Hm. We've had a mixed bag of people who think having to exit and go to a trainer is a good idea for various reasons, and some who think that it's a hassle that takes you out of the moment. Maybe that would be a good "perk." If you go to a trainer, you get something like CO's "power house" as you actually do train with your hypothetical new powers. If you train on the fly, you're locked in, but you got to do it easily enough.
I DO like the option of leveling up on the fly, and not allowing "try before you buy" in those cases.
How it is implemented is (to me) secondary to having the ability to test new powers before locking them in, i.e. "try before you buy". Whether or not I go to a special zone to accomplish this is not important to me. I DO like the option of leveling up on the fly, and not allowing "try before you buy" in those cases.
I never liked having to visit a trainer just for the sake of visiting a trainer. If there is functionality associated with visiting the trainer then I'm OK with that.
If you do the powerhouse make it part of the zone rather than a separate area. Extra loadscreens always suck. Even with a fast machine and a ssd.You could always go with a hybrid approach -- let people level up as "normal" as well as say incorporate the powerhouse feature as an option of a supergroup-equivalent base. It provides motivation for a base/lair, is strictly optional but can be thematic, and can become a bit of a curency sink if necessary.
I can not bring myself to read 30 pages so ummm, can someone be so kind as to PM me or send me a yes or no about the private server deal? I have waited months to check back about this. I have played no other MMO since the close of CoX.The only available private server right now is SEGS: http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/index.php
I want to play it even if it is alone on my comp!CoH was built as a MMO. It has NO single player functionality whatsoever. In short, any assumption that "just a single player version" would be easier to produce is fundamentally wrong. It would actually amount to far more work than creating a private server.
CoH was built as a MMO. It has NO single player functionality whatsoever. In short, any assumption that "just a single player version" would be easier to produce is fundamentally wrong. It would actually amount to far more work than creating a private server.
Not entirely true, unless you mean re-working all the TFs and Trials to allow a single player to start them, and scaling open-world AVs/Giant Monsters down dramatically. The game, for the most part (especially after the AV change that scaled them down to EBs if your difficulty was low enough when solo), scaled pretty well for doing missions solo.
In fact, it would require about the same amount of time and effort I imagine that it does to create a private server, because essentially that's what you'd have to do. I think any "solo version" would essentially be mimicking a server locally on your machine, so why not just make the server and run it locally if it's going to do the exact same thing?
well hell I should of posted my question about single payer and COX here.
From what I gather about private servers given that the population is probably going to be a lot smaller, it make sense to make it single player capable too. Or else it would render 90% of the end game moot (if that version is used) and any TF/Trial is moot and useless. Which leaves the mundane repeat with different skin 30% of them being CoT missions to be played over and over and over and over which dont sound like much fun to me personally.
From the looks of it, seeing how alot of things already scaled to EB for single player and up dependign on team size the mechanic is already there and by definition, it's there for TF and trials. That why with small team on some TFs you end up with EB at end instead of full AV for larger teams. It's probably isnt hard to scale it for single player since the scale mechanics is already there anyways.
True, but if you want to rescale those TFs and Trials down, I imagine that could be done by adjusting things on the server's setup in some fashion, which would be something that can wait until after a functioning server can be established and released into the wild.
Essentially, all you'd need to do is override the TF/Trial team member requirements from 4(or whatever it is) to 1 so it can be started solo, and the rest is a matter of making sure your difficulty settings match what you can actually handle. I've known people who've duo-ed Positron TFs(The original grindfest version that was the bane of so many peoples' low-level careers), so if two people can tackle that, one person shouldn't be much harder. But again, that can probably be changed from server settings for the NPCs that are being spawned for that mission. (I think all the NPCs were probably difficulty-scaled and setup from the servers, not from the client, so again, a Server would be needed to handle the NPCs)
Not entirely true, unless you mean re-working all the TFs and Trials to allow a single player to start them, and scaling open-world AVs/Giant Monsters down dramatically.Quite a few of the requests for "just a single player version" that I've seen went right into that territory, as I recall.
Quite a few of the requests for "just a single player version" that I've seen went right into that territory, as I recall.
But cant you see what a new power looks like, before you ever exit the character creator due to the power customization screen? Or are people talking about being able to try it out on a trial NPC or something...? Clueless here.
I'd also so love to see this as a downloadable server. I realize there may exist one online solution, I'd still prefer to have my own home hosted server for me and my friends.
Thank you to all who have worked on this.
Singing "We Can Be Heroes."
I'd also so love to see this as a downloadable server. I realize there may exist one online solution, I'd still prefer to have my own home hosted server for me and my friends.I agree with this a lot. Though I know there's a fear of splitting the community too much I'd personally like to have total control over my own server than play on a hugely populated one. Plus, the fact is that some of the CoH community didn't really blend. RPers and Non-RPers constantly fought even on Virtue. Imagine if every server was merged into one, mixing every kind of player? That'd be pure chaos to mix all the different kinds of cliques. Speaking of, everyone would pretty much just be hanging out with their SG mates and all anyway. Most social interaction would probably be scarce. Not saying that there can't BE a 'main server'. If someone were to host one for those who can't/don't want to host a server themselves, that'd be great! But I'd strongly advise against making that the only server.
Thank you to all who have worked on this.
I agree with this a lot. Though I know there's a fear of splitting the community too much I'd personally like to have total control over my own server than play on a hugely populated one. Plus, the fact is that some of the CoH community didn't really blend. RPers and Non-RPers constantly fought even on Virtue. Imagine if every server was merged into one, mixing every kind of player? That'd be pure chaos to mix all the different kinds of cliques. Speaking of, everyone would pretty much just be hanging out with their SG mates and all anyway. Most social interaction would probably be scarce. Not saying that there can't BE a 'main server'. If someone were to host one for those who can't/don't want to host a server themselves, that'd be great! But I'd strongly advise against making that the only server.
I really hope we get a few community servers going first. Because the big group stuff like incarnate trials, msrs, and hami wouldn't be possible to do. And I personally like to do more than roll lots of forgotten Alts and stand under atlas. I'm doing the alt thing now in DC and CO and I'm pretty bored and lonely :(
Also, why has there been very little on a private server of any kind :(?
Why even waste our time with a non-answer ?
I'd love to have my own personal copy of CoX to just play by myself and modify my characters... I'd also like to play via LAN with some friends...
Also, why has there been very little on a private server of any kind :(?
Why even waste our time with a non-answer ?
I'd love to have my own personal copy of CoX to just play by myself and modify my characters... I'd also like to play via LAN with some friends...
Also, why has there been very little on a private server of any kind :(?
Because writing a server is no small undertaking.
Believe me, the very best thing that could happen for us, as regards a private server, is for any efforts to remain totally stealthy and unheard-from, so that NCSoft's lawyer henchmen doesn't know where to direct any cease-and-desist efforts. And then, the server springs up, full-blown, in several places, and is downloaded and spread by lots of people. That way, NCSoft can't suppress all of the copies, and (as someone put it) their lawyers can spend years playing Whack-A-Mole all over the Internet.
NCSoft doesn't stop the other games from having literally hundreds of private servers - and they even advertise for them.
If they don't know where they came from they can't stop them all.
Uhm. No. No they don't.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11786
Although I wonder, what are the chances of Icons becoming a sort of "private server" in the future? Think that is feasible? I think many ex-coxers by now heard of Icon, and so far it seems individual can "connect" to it, but say if somehow they were linked to each other or could connect to another's version of Icon as a "guest" of some sort. Or somethign of the likes.
pretty much zero, Codewalker and those following the icon thread both agree that it will always be a client-side only thing. Nothing remains resident in the game once you turn it off from one instance to the next including any toon you create, and so much of the game's mechanics depend on spawns and server generated events that simply don't exist in the game client that it's technically infeasable for it to ever be much more than it is right now, which is a costume generator with limited access to a static world stored entirely on a computer.ah, ok then.
Uhm. No. No they don't.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11786
Ummm yes, they do:
Lineage 2 private servers:
http://www.topgamesites.net/lineage2
Aion private servers:
http://topofgames.com/Aion/
I keep saying this and have posted these links before. I swear people at NCSoft are probably shaking their heads saying make a private server what is the problem with you guys? Seriously - just do a very simple google - Lineage 2 private servers - Aion private servers. You will find literally hundreds openly advertised.
OK...
#4 - 404 (not kidding)
#20 - more like a Cityville clone
#21 - Cityville clone (called "HAHGOTYA"; gofigure)
#25 - Yeah, really, don't click on that one. I'm serious. Porn.
#26 - Server not found
#30 - Isn't related. It's a Romanian photography site.
#31 - Cityville clone. Seriously with these?
#36 - dead link
It says there is a second page, but the first page only goes to #43. Frankly, if someone here has a server link that they've tried and can vouch for it, I'm not sure how willing I would be to try one of these.
Would someone actually get paid and be on the clock while reading a 32 page thread on this forum?
interesting.
I wonder how many of those type of links, that seem to be titled and categorized in not a clear and precise manner, exists for other "private servers".
Glad I didn't click on them, but now it doesn't seem like a very reputable site to look for private servers.
(Speaking of which, did someone ever put out a corrected edition of the first Blue King pdf? In the copy that I have, one of the interior pages - where the team are fighting the Vahzilok to enter the building - is tacked onto the end; it breaks up the story. :/ )
Most notably, "Team Cohvd" (claimed in its description to be the "first ever working CoH/CoV private server") just links to a shock site.
Yeah, it's not something I would click on if I weren't on a tightly controlled computer. It is, however, exactly the type of place I like to hear that someone has gone to when they bring their machine in to be looked at. I have my most convincing sympathetic wince ready for when they say it, too. :)
I didn't mean to look like I was picking your post apart, BTW. You actually did list the only ones that looked promising, though I suspect the porn one was actually a typo; the next one looked more promising, at first glance. I didn't check any of the other games listed in the sidebar, either, so there may actually be some "legit" links somewhere on that site. I'll dig into that a bit more, but probably not tonight. Tonight, I enter The Grid! ;D
The rest are either Inf-selling sites...
Why not ... I do 8)
:o
*alt-tabs as the boss walks by*
You could hack any NT or Windows 95/98 system using plugins from there.
Yeah?
Here at my work, the gov kind of frown on visting those types of sites on their computers. Hell, they frown upon visiting this site on their computers.
Vist this site (http://trollthensa.com/) and give them a scare.lmao. I'd probably get fired if they seen that on my computer. lmao.
Go onnnnnnn.
I downloaded the ones that NC$oft had on the official site shortly before the lights went out, and it appears to be a correct copy. If the one on http://www.cityofheroes.ca is not correct, someone can probably thumbnail me instructions on how to upload the one I have to the Google Drive folder above.
COX ever manages to get a sneaky back door into it, I'm in.
Mysterious downloads are why God created virtual machines.:)
Unfortunately, it was locked before I could ask: What does "SCORE" stand for?
Mysterious downloads are why God created virtual machines.
Mysterious downloads are why God created virtual machines.
Not to mention better performance, application isolation, and OS testing without wrecking your gaming setup.
It occurs to me that a desirable support product would be some kind of standard character storage record format -- and software -- that would allow one to down-port and up-port characters from a modified Reverse Engineered server (whether that server was actually emulating City of Heroes or some completely different game developed to use the I24 COH client software).
Basically, the point is this: the more variety and customizing you allow to each server, the less interoperability there will be, even to the point where (like the private UO shards) characters are not transferable in the slightest. But requiring interoperability might stifle creativity and custom ATs, powers, etc.
Buzz Killer!
Which is a choice you make if you abandon interoperability -- as you described it, your system couldn't possibly work with transferred characters anyway -- "a mage from another shard would not be able to cast any spells in this shard since he didn't have any spells memorized," -- so why would you worry about transferred characters? -- its not like an agreed standard record could hurt you.
I suppose we'll have to wait to see the implementation of the code. I'm hopeful that they considered this issue when writing it, but I'm worried that if they just tried to most directly reverse engineer the code, since there was no such need to worry about different versions of character data in CoH, it's possible that the code that they copied would not make provision for characters with slightly different systems.
I have absolutely no technical skills what so ever but I'm going to guess, based on all of the references from past developers as to how tangled and piecemeal the code was at the end, that any attempts to add in something as complex as new character data would be incredibly difficult and take an extraordinary amount of time to test and implement.I'm going to assume (I know, stupidity.) that the spaghetti code was server side and not client side. If that is truly the case, as long as the variable inputs/outputs server-side match the inputs/outputs client-side, the rest of it could be as clean or messy as the coder want. And, since they'll have to recode everything server-side, I'd guess they'd go for a more clean code.
Personally, I'll be delighted to get the game back as it was at closing.
I wonder if perhaps the reason you're not seeing a private server "out in the wild" is because - IF - and I do mean HUGE "IF" - there is one, that they've taken the lessons of the past to heart and gone deep "underground"?
So, you're suggesting the rest of us were judged unworthy by deep cover private server groups?
This is why all fantasies of making a CoH Private server IP-free are pretty much out the window. Take how long it took the professional, paid developers to come up with all those art assets and all, and then multiply that by about 3. That's how long it would take us to completely re-make CoH with custom assets. Sure you could say "The community will help!", but that's what we all figured with SEGS, and look at it now: A team of 1, working on a source. The whole CoH community is there to help, but no one has the skills to do so. Leaving a project like this up to the community isn't going to help.
Of course, there's doing it in a way that doesn't clash with I.P. But the key ingredients are sitting on most user's hard drives. Recreating all that artwork, zones, animations and powers would have been a formidable task.
I'm curious why they don't just distribute the source to people via PMs, and those people distribute it to their friends, and etc. Or, websites like Ragezone hold sources for Private servers of games still running (E.g. Maplestory). As far as I know they haven't had any issues with that (And I know I saw someone there asking around for a CoH PS).
Still - if there are any servers out there - they should STAY UNDERGROUND. At least until someone has figured out a way to release the code out "in the wild" in such a way that anyone can run it on a desktop or something. Propagate it such that nothing NCSoft can do will stop people from playing.
It depends. Say that a server makes no changes to the underlying character design, and just adds a new powerset named Jedi Mind Tricks. Then a character made on the server with standard powersets should have no problem in porting over to another server.If the server is looking for the assets labeled "Jedi_Mind_Tricks" and it fails it cause an error. Thus if the player somehow managed to get into the game on a server not running this "Jedi Mind Tricks" set, they'd have no powerset (or a broken one). See I'd assume that it will be possible to add in new things like that, and if a server's code doesn't support or have any record of this said set, it won't be able to load it in.
Even just changing the assets of the game to not involve CoH's IP wouldn't be enough. You're still using their graphics, their models... Even just the likeness of the PS to the real game is a candidate for a lawsuit. Avoiding this isn't something quick and easy, and I'm doubting any actual possibility. I want CoH back as much as everyone else, but we have to think logically about this.
In August 2012, Electronic Arts (EA), via its Maxis division, put forth a lawsuit against Zynga, claiming that its Facebook game, The Ville was a ripoff of EA's own Facebook game, The Sims Social. The lawsuit challenges that The Ville not only copies the gameplay mechanics of The Sims Social, but also uses art and visual interface aspects that appear to be inspired by The Sims Social.Now, CoH has closed down, but NCSoft still does own the rights to it. They could technically open the game up again. This means that despite the game not being public anymore, the rights are still there.
Always remember the golden rule: The one with all the gold makes the rules.NCLimp can sit on a mountain of gold for all I care - and they can then proceed to kiss my ass. We'll do what we want with CoH at this point - watching them try to play "whack-a-mole" with a thousand private servers will be the funniest thing I've seen in decades.
NCSoft has more gold than we do. They can tell us what to do and force us to do it, with regards to City of Heroes.
NCLimp can sit on a mountain of gold for all I care - and they can then proceed to kiss my ass. We'll do what we want with CoH at this point - watching them try to play "whack-a-mole" with a thousand private servers will be the funniest thing I've seen in decades.
I'd feel sorry for any particular mole they manage to whack, especially if they decide to make an example of him or her to the rest.I work in IT. Theoretically speaking, if I end up with one, I dare them to try to find it. I can guarantee they'll spend way more time than they would want to just trying. I'll take my chances - especially if the source code is released as well and I can change file names, checksums, signatures, etc. They'll go nuts trying to tear the whole internet apart and never come close to stumbling across my copy.
Gleech, likeness of the game? Games cannot be copyrighted (as I understand it and I believe this is settled law), only IP content. All the necessary IP content is available in the client software that was given away publicly for free.
So a server that helps the client software to use it's assets to play a game, be it just running the character creator like ICON or fighting mobs, would not violate any of NCSoft's rights. Running the "Statesman task force" is likely another story, as I don't believe the mission content is client-side. But putting mobs of characters on the streets of Paragon doesn't have to be more than sending codes to the client.
Of course they could sue anyone running a server -- you can sue anyone for anything. The only protection is that it exposes you to counter-suit, and if you don't have a solid basis for action the court is likely to do nasty things to you.
I work in IT. Theoretically speaking, if I end up with one, I dare them to try to find it. I can guarantee they'll spend way more time than they would want to just trying. I'll take my chances - especially if the source code is released as well and I can change file names, checksums, signatures, etc. They'll go nuts trying to tear the whole internet apart and never come close to stumbling across my copy.
And if they "make an example" of one of us, my response will be to give out lots more copies to lots more people! Again, they can kiss my ass.
I don't always have time to post, butwhen I do, I prefer Dos EquisI do read everything in this and related threads. So I'll summarize and cover a few things at once.
- I don't care if NCSoft knows about Icon. This is a public board, and I fully expect them to know about it if they're paying even the slightest bit of attention. That's fine -- it uses assets that everybody already has -- assets that they abandoned on everybody's computer after being freely available for download to ANYONE for years. Legally it should be in the clear. The source code is even provided so they can verify that it doesn't use any copyrighted IP other than mine.
It's also a good litmus test to see how they react. If they want to make a deal out of it, it will result in nothing but bad press for them and not really impact the program's availability much since it's already out there. If they are foolish enough to try to pursue real legal action beyond idle threats, I have faith that there are enough law-savvy people in this community to find a way to make them regret it. Best case scenario: by way of a judgement that sets precedent unfavorable to them in what is currently a fuzzy area.- There will be an Icon 1.8 at some point. I haven't done much active development on it due to other things on my plate, but I have a list of features I want to try to implement. Probably nothing as 'knock-your-socks-off' as previous versions, but more refinements and nice features.
- Icon is not, and never will be, a full game. There are other projects working on that independently. The purpose of Icon is first to be the "offline character creator" that so many have clamored for, but also to offer tools that are useful for content development, whether it be for demo editors, screenshots, machinima, or even testing client mods locally.
That said, Icon is intended to be a call to the community to not give up. There are a lot of very smart people working on various reverse engineering projects, and Icon is here to show a small bit of what we're capable of, so that people realize that there will be private servers at some point. Now many of those servers will very likely be, well... private, but that's a discussion for a different thread (and there are several on these boards, so please discuss them there rather than in the Icon thread).- A corollary to the previous, Icon is not directly related to any server-based projects (which includes single-player servers that run on the same PC as the client). It uses a completely different method that, as I discussed when I first started working on it, isn't really useful in that context. In other words, time spent working on Icon is time spent not working on what everybody really wants.
It also didn't take 6 months to get people running around Atlas Park -- that took about a week from initial conception of the idea to implementation. While Icon does benefit from other reverse engineering work done in the meantime, playing around with the client doesn't contribute much back to them.- To all the people who have sent me PMs, I haven't had a chance to get back to most of them, but rest assured that I have read them. The thanks are very much appreciated, and it's great to see people's day brightened just a little bit. For people wanting to help, I'll point again at the SEGS project which is in need of developers. Not providing a link as I don't want them on the wrong end of the spotlight, but they're not too hard to find if you're serious about it.
NCLimp can sit on a mountain of gold for all I care - and they can then proceed to kiss my ---. We'll do what we want with CoH at this point - watching them try to play "whack-a-mole" with a thousand private servers will be the funniest thing I've seen in decades.Pretty much this is what I'm sayin'. xP Glad someone agrees.
Gleech I feel I must point out that you left out the part about how according to EA Zynga "poached three high-level execs from EA who had internal knowledge of The Sims Social for the specific goal of ripping it off."But you're also forgetting the charges that were issued. Technically NCSoft could say we had the specific goal of "ripping them off". Any second we play CoH free is a dollar lost.
I have the right to store the ip I paid for...but not the right to play it..?Okay honestly: You paid for the services, not the rights to the game. You pay to play CoH because you're paying for the services done to play the game (creation, upkeep, etc). MMO subs are not stocks, you don't own a part of the MMO.
Azrael.
Because people are going to wanna play someone's custom made TF over the real TFs? AE can only work so well without proper updates. CoH devs didn't give us the full Dev tools, I think you're forgetting that. They gave us a taste of it. A small portion. It's not good enough to just use that to remake all the missions. Plus, as said about art assets, it's literally 10+ years of content you plan to remake. It's going to take a long time to remake all that.
You don't need the mission IP or TFs. The community can create their own missions. And a procedural call will bring the streets to life. All the markers are there in the dev mode.
And actually any second we play CoH free is the exact same amount of money they were already getting for it since they closed it down.True, but can you reason with them? No. Try asking them nicely not to sue. Look how that worked out with getting CoH back. They hold the rights to CoH and that's final. We have no rights to the game. No matter how much you paid previously, they have the final say-so in the game. They provided and ended a service legally. The players taking and remaking their service means they aren't profiting from their original work.
The debate is whether NCSoft could sue or not. And yes, they could, over anything we do to their game. They still hold the rights to it, whether the game is online or not.
Hmm.. seems this has moved to somewhat of a debate. LOL!
I agree with Gleech, if someone simply wrote a program where you could play City of Heroes as is. Then they could very well sue. City of Heroes is still their game no matter how much money you pumped into it. If it wasn't this would be a non-issue and we'd all still be playing right now, I'd assume. I think the question really should be, how far could someone go before they actually would sue?
Me personally I couldn't afford to find out. LOL! As has been said before. If anyone is working on a super secret project. Let's hope they do it wisely to were if NCSoft did want to sue. They would decide it wasn't worth the time, money or resources to go forward with a law suit.
I've gotta say, I'm not particularly worried about this. The practical situation is that I don't think that NCsoft cares one bit about any extracurricular activity going on around the game. I'm pretty sure that if they've given this any thought at all (and I'm pretty sure they haven't), they realize that without selling the IP to another company, they have thoroughly poisoned the goodwill of any market for anything having to do with City of Heroes while it's in their possession. I'm sure they still list it as an asset on company documents and whatnot, but it's not like anything we do can devalue that property. They devalued it themselves to practically $0 on August 31, 2012.
If NCsoft wanted to pursue anything, the worst they'd do is send a C&D letter. And I kinda doubt they'd do that, because as soon as they did, I would be yelling from the mountaintops, and the gaming and tech press tends to cover that kind of thing pretty thoroughly. If they just went totally off their rockers and decide to mount a full-out lawsuit against anyone here--which would be about five miles past unprecedented --they would have to prove some sort of damages suffered because of our actions. Given that they deliberately chose to shut down the game and everything we've done has been in reaction to that decision, they'd really have bupkiss to go after us on. Worse, if by some weird chance they lost, it would set a legal precedent that is extremely unfavorable to the gaming industry as a whole. In other words, they have everything to lose and absolutely nothing to gain by doing so.
So I'm really, really, really not worried about this. The discussion in this thread is filed squarely in my bin of philosophical mental exercises of no practical significance whatsoever.
Also, regarding the legal cases cited above, the thing is, these precise circumstances have never been tested legally. If you dig long enough and hard enough, you can find plenty cases to support either side of the "is this legal?" argument. And that's precisely what the lawyers would do if it came to that. They'd each go off and find cases that support their arguments, air those arguments and cases out in court, and a judge and/or jury would suss out which most closely align to this situation. And then the other side would appeal it, and then the other other side would appeal it, and ten or fifteen years down the road, someone would win and people playing games in 2025 would now have new rules to play by.
This is what happens when gamers and coders start arguing about legal matters. Just a wee bit outside their focus, neh? What we really need are some lawyers to set the record straight.yeah been talking to some lawyers, experts in these matters.
I really don't care about the legal bs. The minute someone releases code to get this game playable again I'll be spreading it to every torrent site I can find.
Let's just get a server in Cyprus.
I'd feel sorry for any particular mole they manage to whack, especially if they decide to make an example of him or her to the rest.
Is the US going to extradite us to Korea for the proceedings? Doubt it.
Still curious as to what asset I have that would make a lawsuit worth pursuing for them. I don't think they can seize my house.
Nearly 13 months and counting. I can only presume that APIs are mapped out and proof of concept procedural mob generation on a map with combat as proof of pudding...
In the time leading up to closure of coh I can only presume some clever people looked at server code protocols to be confident of replicating that functionality.... Unless someone put the code on a pen drive... :o when clearing their desks...
Have other mmos been reverse engineered and if so how long did it take? And we're these mmos as popular as coh..?
Azrael.
NCSoft has nothing to lose by sending a C&D. If I were a betting man, I would put a decent amount of money on them sending a C&D letter to people who hosting servers(at least popular ones). Why wouldn't they?
True enough. They may not want the legal precedents set by going to court over the legality of a server emulator and losing, but they won't really have anything to lose by sending a C&D letter to whoever hosts a server.
My point is that they have the money and power to make life quite miserable for some of us, and if they can't target all of us as a group then they will focus on individuals. That's what the RIAA did. It's what Apple did. I hope you're ready to give whatever support those individuals might need. Not everyone here can afford to be a maverick.
I won't lie, recreating the server is taking way longer than I was hoping it would, just to have something to show for our efforts. There are actually two separate but related efforts going on right now, and the folks who have been working on this project have been devoting most of their time to the second one. I really can't talk about that one, and likely won't for a long, long time. But I will say that it's not all just wasted effort. The work that has been done to date is directly relevant to rewriting the game, doing stuff like editing client-side files that will be required to run against a new server, since some of the APIs depend on server-side code that we can't literally recreate to work exactly the same from scratch.
I also know I've been quiet this month, but that's mostly because I had my birthday, started work on a new job, and then the holidays (including the most extended vacation out of town that I've gone on in a long time) all squeezed into the space of one month. But it really is still being worked on.
Ed Gruberman: "Yeah. No disrespect or nothing, but like how long is this going to take?"
TonyV: "The resurrection of City of Heroes is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon."
Ed: "So like, what, an hour or so?"
TonyV: "No, no. We have not even begun upon the path. Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience."
Ed: "Yeah, yeah, patience. How long will that take?"
TonyV: "Time has no meaning. To a true student, a year is as a day."
Ed: "A year?! I wanna go flying right now! I got the cape!"
Ed Gruberman: "Yeah. No disrespect or nothing, but like how long is this going to take?"
TonyV: "The resurrection of City of Heroes is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon."
Ed: "So like, what, an hour or so?"
TonyV: "No, no. We have not even begun upon the path. Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience."
Ed: "Yeah, yeah, patience. How long will that take?"
TonyV: "Time has no meaning. To a true student, a year is as a day."
Ed: "A year?! I wanna go flying right now! I got the cape!"
At this point, I'd be ecstatic with street mobs and a functioning radio...
I have no issue with street sweeping to 50.
Seriously, keep fightin' the fight... even unreleased the effort is appreciated.
But there are two HUGE differences between NCsoft and the RIAA and Apple: The RIAA and Apple have billions of dollars at their disposal, and more relevantly, the RIAA and Apple went after people who were impacting products on which they are still profiting handsomely. You have to understand that even if NCsoft came after me with every legal gun they have and blew me out of the water with some out-of-this-world multi-million dollar judgment against me, I would immediately declare bankruptcy and start my financial life over. Yeah, it would suck being poor as dirt for a few years while I worked to restore my footing, and yeah, they could temporarily make my life miserable, but really, it's not that bad and eventually, things would be okay again. It wouldn't affect any non-me people at all, and they'd be paying out the wazoo to go after anyone else.
So, how long is a "long, long time"? It's all relative. I can wait "a long, long time" for City of Heroes to come back. But, I am not getting any younger and I hope I can fly once again in the skies of Paragon City.
At this point, I'd be ecstatic with street mobs and a functioning radio...
I have no issue with street sweeping to 50.
.... But I honestly think we are going to see CoT BEFORE we see a CoX private server, because that is a lot of work with some very janky code.
Those alpha tests are going to be closed, mind you, so unless you hang around and stay involved, I think it will be years later before you hear anything solid.
If that's an optimistic view of COT, then I very sincerely hope you're right. But last I heard they don't have an approach to MMO software except to build their own... their chosen engine doesn't include a developed MMO. And first thing they're getting the character creator going. Which makes me think MMO development will be after (I'd be happy to learn I was wrong).
That sounds like a potential 6-year time sink to me. MMO development has defeated professional shops before this.
Oh also, why does the jankyness of the code matter if they're reverse-engineering the functions?
Treating the client as a black box (input goes in, magic comes out that is up to you to figure out) isn't going to be terribly efficient in replicating the server, especially when the server-client relationship means that the client is expecting you to feed it magic instead of the other way around.
No such animal. it's either a white box - ie known functionality - or a black box: stuff comes in, MAGIC happens, different stuff comes out. If you know parts of it but not everything, it's a collection of boxes and black box itself as far as overall functioning goes.
If that's an optimistic view of COT, then I very sincerely hope you're right. But last I heard they don't have an approach to MMO software except to build their own... their chosen engine doesn't include a developed MMO. And first thing they're getting the character creator going. Which makes me think MMO development will be after (I'd be happy to learn I was wrong).
That sounds like a potential 6-year time sink to me. MMO development has defeated professional shops before this.
Oh also, why does the jankyness of the code matter if they're reverse-engineering the functions?
Where do you get six years from? My understanding - someone please correct me if wrong - was that their CC was slated for 2014, game launch in 2015. Even with delays - and I expect a few - that's not exactly six years.
MMOs have defeated professionals before this. But in this case, there's one extra factor: this isn't some project people are "interested" in because they were hired to work on it. These are people who got thrown out of their online home, just like you and I did. They want their home back. This is no humdrum "job" for them, they go to prepare a place for not only themselves, but for us.
Perhaps they will fail. Stranger things have happened. But until they DO, I will continue hoping and wishing them success and hoping for miracles, until proven otherwise. [And I will still get on that emulator, because I am nostalgic too.]
Valiance has been in development for six years? This is the first I have heard of it.
What is the size of that project compared to CoT? As in, how many people are working on it? I have never seen a Kickstarter for Valiance. How are they funding that project? These are really rhetorical questions; my main point being, that the size of the project is going to directly impact the release date. For instance 50 people are going to produce more, faster than 10 people. And budget matters a lot. What tools do they have? There's just a lot of variables here rather than a flat "MMOs take at least six years to create, across the board."
their chosen engine doesn't include a developed MMO.
Last I heard, they were using the Unreal engine right? Quite a few MMOs run on that. Most notably one of the two remaining superhero MMOs - DCUO runs on it. Marvel Heroes does too, although that's more a Diablo game with MMO elements than a full on MMO. Several other large MMOs do as well, most notably TERA and NCSoft's own Blade & Soul. And Lineage II runs on an earlier version.
The list of games of all shapes and sizes that run on Unreal is actually pretty staggering when you see it.
As I understand it (please, someone more knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong) -- while lots of games run using the Unreal game engine, they also use MMO software to actually run the game. Unreal doesn't come with MMO capability -- you need to build it or buy one.Err. Uhh. The Unreal engine scales to MMO-capability by itself. For the really most basic explanation, the game engine is the base of the game. What the game looks like, how it interacts, etc. That doesn't matter whether it's MMO or not. You hook into it with a single player game or a multiplayer or a MMO multiplayer. The functions and such.
Err. Uhh. The Unreal engine scales to MMO-capability by itself. For the really most basic explanation, the game engine is the base of the game. What the game looks like, how it interacts, etc. That doesn't matter whether it's MMO or not. You hook into it with a single player game or a multiplayer or a MMO multiplayer. The functions and such.
Err. Uhh. The Unreal engine scales to MMO-capability by itself.
Still an optimist, sir.
As disjointed as we've become in the last year, when the time comes to ask folks to give it a spin, there may be 8 forum readers that day (people still check in but at varying times, dates and through RL issues.) If you're not asked to be in any betas, or the public release whizzes by as you learn of it months later, don't be hurt over it.
Now let's see in X months, X years, if I can take my own advice. ???
Still an optimist, sir.
As disjointed as we've become in the last year, when the time comes to ask folks to give it a spin, there may be 8 forum readers that day (people still check in but at varying times, dates and through RL issues.) If you're not asked to be in any betas, or the public release whizzes by as you learn of it months later, don't be hurt over it.
Now let's see in X months, X years, if I can take my own advice.
Just keep coming around and you'll be one of those eight hehe.Especially if you count the lurkers that check in regularly, but only post from time to time, when they think it's important.
Personally I expect there to still be way more than eight around here though. :)
Especially if you count the lurkers that check in regularly, but only post from time to time, when they think it's important.
;)
Lyc~ the lurking werewolf
Especially if you count the lurkers that check in regularly, but only post from time to time, when they think it's important.
;)
Lyc~ the lurking werewolf
Lyc~ the lurking werewolf
You do realize that those 55,000 hits, assuming they are all humans, could translate into $825,000/month. That's 55,000 x the $15/month many of us paid to play before free to play came to coh. That 55,000 would translate into 9.9 million per year. My guess is that 55,000 is just the tip of the iceberg for the number of people willing to play. A proper ad campaign (something NCSoft never did) could multiply that several times.
It's worth nothing to NC Soft now. Just give it to a small community of developers. Make it an open source gift to the community.Never. Not in a billion years. Just like their reasons for closing it are Top Secret, so too are their reasons for never selling it. I stopped expecting anything approaching rational behavior from them on Aug 31st, 2012.
You do realize that those 55,000 hits, assuming they are all humans, could translate into $825,000/month. That's 55,000 x the $15/month many of us paid to play before free to play came to coh. That 55,000 would translate into 9.9 million per year. My guess is that 55,000 is just the tip of the iceberg for the number of people willing to play. A proper ad campaign (something NCSoft never did) could multiply that several times. I realize that some of those hits are (search engine) robots, webcrawlers, or other programs but no one knows for certain how much any site is crawled like that.
I check it about once per minute.
I want to be here THE MOMENT something happens.
Never. Not in a billion years. Just like their reasons for closing it are Top Secret, so too are their reasons for never selling it. I stopped expecting anything approaching rational behavior from them on Aug 31st, 2012.
I don't know why nc chose to kill off coh. I tend to agree that they should have folded the servers into 1 or 2 and let the game live with little to no support beyond the usual, "I'm stuck" type of help. Frankly, I would have been happy if they never issued another issue. I doubt will ever get the real reason and am willing to bet at least half here wouldn't believe it anyway. That's why I say the reason they killed it is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that unless we make it free to play, it will generate revenue. Certainly enough to hire a full time programming staff, artisans, writers, etc. Likely we'll get even better support. It's a win for almost everyone. The only one who losses is ncsoft and that I don't have any issues with.
And I figure we're talking somewhere between half to two mil per month once it's up assuming nc doesn't find a way to kill it. I'm also reasonably certain the teams developing our new homes are taking necessary precautions. The biggest problem we have is giving those teams time to complete their work.
But the server wont be able to earn revenue....... if ncsoft find out that its earning revenue, then they will sue... and they will win and wont get any bad publicity or get any after flame that will hurt them. as long as they own all rights to CoH we cant make revenue off of it
As long as their code and intellectual property isn't be used, they have no legal standing. If either project is using ncsoft code or IP, then they will be within their rights to take legal action regardless of whether or not the server is making money.yup.
As long as their code and intellectual property isn't be used, they have no legal standing. If either project is using ncsoft code or IP, then they will be within their rights to take legal action regardless of whether or not the server is making money.
I don't know why nc chose to kill off coh. I tend to agree that they should have folded the servers into 1 or 2 and let the game live with little to no support beyond the usual, "I'm stuck" type of help. Frankly, I would have been happy if they never issued another issue. I doubt will ever get the real reason and am willing to bet at least half here wouldn't believe it anyway. That's why I say the reason they killed it is irrelevant.
That's kind of like saying, "Star Trek the original series is no longer produced. Hasn't been produced since the 1960s. But I want it back! So I am going to hire my own Kirk, Spock and McCoy. We start shooting in February. Paramount is no longer using this part of the property, so that means its a free for all."
I don't know why nc chose to kill off coh. I tend to agree that they should have folded the servers into 1 or 2 and let the game live with little to no support beyond the usual, "I'm stuck" type of help. Frankly, I would have been happy if they never issued another issue. I doubt will ever get the real reason and am willing to bet at least half here wouldn't believe it anyway. That's why I say the reason they killed it is irrelevant.well the idea of server mergers and slowing down on issue releases been brought up a couple of times through out the years and man were their riots and a resounding "NO!" against it. Mostly worries about names. Of course in hindsight if chosen between what happened in the end and simply picking another name and dealing with old content for a while, I think , keyword, I think many would gladly choose server merger. I was one of those people long ago saying maybe servers should be merged because some of them were all but empty. Lot of flame for that. But people that mentioned it on the forums got the business much worse.
What is relevant is that unless we make it free to play, it will generate revenue. Certainly enough to hire a full time programming staff, artisans, writers, etc. Likely we'll get even better support. It's a win for almost everyone. The only one who losses is ncsoft and that I don't have any issues with.
And I figure we're talking somewhere between half to two mil per month once it's up assuming nc doesn't find a way to kill it. I'm also reasonably certain the teams developing our new homes are taking necessary precautions. The biggest problem we have is giving those teams time to complete their work.
And who exactly wrote the game client again?
That is why it is essential that no money be charged for a reverse-engineering project. Nothing will get NCSoft's attention faster, and not in a good way.
That's kind of like saying, "Star Trek the original series is no longer produced. Hasn't been produced since the 1960s. But I want it back! So I am going to hire my own Kirk, Spock and McCoy. We start shooting in February. Paramount is no longer using this part of the property, so that means its a free for all."
Um, no.
Any servers that get finished from either of the reverse engineering projects will not ever require you to give them money to play. I'm pretty sure everyone working on those projects knows that such a thing would result in a quick and painful lawsuit, and then our only solutions would be the various "Plan Z" games, assuming any of them actually deliver anything remotely close to what we all are looking for in a replacement, or someone winning the Powerball, and dropping a large enough figure to entice NCSoft to sell. And based on all the speculation following the shutdown, it's my belief that that figure would have to be at least 7 to 8 figures to make NCSoft even consider letting go of the IP considering their apparent enjoyment of just sitting on dead properties...
That, FatherXmas, is the $64,000 question because that entity is the one who would be sending C&Ds.Not sure if you're understanding how much power a publisher has over a game...
If there's no charge then who is going to pay for the hosting? Servers and data circuits aren't free. I suppose the projects could place billboards all over the game map using google ads to supply content. I could just see an ad for McDonald's on a billboard somewhere. Maybe a set of golden arches on a corner building. Maybe even have a stateman like toon hocking hamburgers.I can run a server just fine from my own computer. Also, sites like... well, for example, this one, could host the server, but accept donations or something and end up putting that towards the server. (Not saying that there's no way to sue for that, but I've seen sites do that before)
I can run a server just fine from my own computer. Also, sites like... well, for example, this one, could host the server, but accept donations or something and end up putting that towards the server.
May I refer you to the legal battles between the free BSD OSes and AT&T? They charged nothing for FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD but AT&T went after them anyway over using AT&T code.
If there's no charge then who is going to pay for the hosting? Servers and data circuits aren't free.
http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/
I started feeling sweaty, just looking at that page. Sweaty as in, a sweat of fear *for* the people doing this. Do they have some kind of agreement with Paramount?!! Now this looks like it has "SUE ME PLZZZZZ!" written all over it. Truly, those people have cojones of brass; I would not be able to sleep at night for fear of impending legalities.
I have to say that I did find your example rather humorous (ironic?). Seeing as the situation you described was EXACTLY what these people did and pretty much demonstrated that you were wrong.different company different view on that type of stuff.
They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing. Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).
They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing. Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).
I don't see how they could object. They gave the client away freely (the body of assets).
There's a lot to be said for both wide-open public servers and invite-only private ones. When any player at all is allowed to join a server, you end up meeting people you never knew you wanted to play with. I've met some great friends in City that I don't really have much in common with outside of the game. If I had only ever spoken with them through a forum first, I'd probably not have hung out with them at all, and that would be a shame since I'd be missing out on some really cool friends that way.That's a great post.
On the other hand, I pretty much agree with everything you're saying about why private servers would work well. Each and every server could tailor the game perfectly to that group of players, so that they get to play their perfect game without having to be interrupted by events and players they don't enjoy. The one and only hitch with that is, you only ever get to play with people you already know from somewhere else. You're protecting yourself from the things you don't like, sure, and that's great. But you're also preventing yourself from finding new things that you didn't know you'd like until someone else asked you to try it.
For my money, I think the ideal solution would be to allow both. Set up one public server with "vanilla" rules that anyone can log into, where players can mingle and find new people to play alongside. Also let folks set up their own private servers with their own adjustments to the rules and the environment so they can enjoy the game their way with their group of friends. (Although to prevent cheating, don't let them transfer those characters to the vanilla server.)
But one thing I definitely think should be enabled is for ALL the servers, public and private alike, to be able to hook up to one central set of global chat channels. Anyone on any server could talk to anyone on any other server, as long as you're in the same chat channel. Stuff like Help and LFG and etc would be local to that server of course, but the global channels would be exactly that: world-wide. Just like how someone on Freedom could talk to someone on Liberty if they were in the same global channel. But this way any server, public or private, could talk to any other if they wanted to (as long as it was online of course). I think that would help people get the exact play experience they want, while also still allowing the communication that would keep the playerbase at large interacting with one another.
Well the problem also lies in the the fact that ex COX players are not psychically linked. Meaning if no one hears or know, for protection, then more than likely when "great download" happens, there wont be a bunch of people waiting for something or know of something to download that they dont even know exist. Which, while getting the word out even then, make it easier target for the lawyers than if if was in development stage. Because then now they have then, and have evidence of distribution and dont have to go after the others and instead hold the main source, or as near as they can, responsible for the distribution. Alot of MP3 file sharing sites went down like that thinking if they get it out no one will find them. Lo and behold most got sued for millions and held responsible for distrubution of those files and made it easier to prove the damage, unrepairable damage was done. At the same time, there are many that got away. Just have to be careful and stop being so surely that they are outsmarting every single legal team on the planet. More than likely their plan is not very new or that unstoppable. That is how many get caught. When they start thinking they are untouchable and their plan is infallable and under estimate their enemy, it bites them, usually to their suprise. Too much like it's a sure thing they will get away with it scrot free in Robin Hood fashion and the evil NCSOFT will be conqoured for ever and ever and everyone will live happily ever after while NCSOFT wouldnt dare do anything within their power to fight back. They will roll over and forget about it. Could be. But prepping only for that scenario and not looking at all possibilities that is possible can lead to utter disaster and someone being finanicially ruined for trying to do something they thought was the right thing to do.Heck....just give the files to a person like me and I'll post it. I've got no money for NCSoft to take. They think they are going to get millions from me? Good luck with that. Bankruptcy laws. Throw me in jail? Maybe it would be worth it.
Remember they dont have to supress all copies. And more spread out it gets, the more they can charge as damage caused by the person they catch distrub. If I get a product(used in manner to mean IP trademark, Copyright/ and actual property and or product) and someone steals it and use it for their own, then I dont have to track down every single person that got it. I can find that one, preferable the one that started it, and charge them and make a good case that because of them, all those people that have the copy, that money should have been mine and thus they owe me the market price and damage and business loss of the known people that may have it and a bit more since it is still being distributed due to that person. In the age of internet, most things if not everything online is traceable from the conversation to the people that suggest doing this to the people that is actually doing it and whether or not they read and or posted here or not.
True story, I was just thinking about running my friday night msr. But then I was like F*CK!Hells yes!
I really don't care about the legal bs. The minute someone releases code to get this game playable again I'll be spreading it to every torrent site I can find. F*ck ncsoft and F*ck the EULA. I'm mad as hell not being able to play, losing my internet social groups and friends and losing the best virtual world to ever exist. I'll do whatever it takes to share the game with the world once it's available.
You're assuming that anyone is a position to send a C&D would even notice. From what I've heard, NCsoft's U.S. presence is mainly just a skeleton crew of puppets who take and carry out orders from the corporate HQ in Seoul. I'm almost certain that the people in Seoul are willfully ignorant of what's going on with City of Heroes. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that they are actually actively tuning us out, and even if someone in actual authority got an email saying, "Hey, there's a private server here," they'd hit delete before reading it, just like they've probably done with every other "Hey, the City of Heroes players are [whatever]..." email.Sounds like a fun thing for CoH players to do...spam their email box with "Hey there's a private server here" emails leading to shock sites and Rick-rolling. That should make their finger move quite a bit faster on the delete key I'm thinking. 8)
I have to say that I did find your example rather humorous (ironic?). Seeing as the situation you described was EXACTLY what these people did and pretty much demonstrated that you were wrong.
They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing. Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).
Sounds like a fun thing for CoH players to do...spam their email box with "Hey there's a private server here" emails leading to shock sites and Rick-rolling. That should make their finger move quite a bit faster on the delete key I'm thinking. 8)I find your suggestion to be despicable and thoroughly dishonest.
Sounds like a fun thing for CoH players to do...spam their email box with "Hey there's a private server here" emails leading to shock sites and Rick-rolling.
I find your suggestion to be despicable and thoroughly dishonest.Too funny!
So, is there perhaps a spam service I could contact to start doing this for me? ;)
I'm pretty sure they have some sort of filter that marks anything to do with CoH as spam by now. :PEven better if true. That would take care of any tattle-tales trying to alert them to the bad-ole CoH players playing the game again. :)
Even better if true. That would take care of any tattle-tales trying to alert them to the bad-ole CoH players playing the game again. :)
In fact to all you saying "Well NCSoft is just handing us the client! It's clearly free to use!"If memory serves, the EULA for City of Heroes specified that the game client was licensed to players, and technically speaking we are no longer entitled to have it or use it any more. I'm unaware of anyone actually being sued for having or using a dead game client before, and I don't think anyone (even NCSoft) would attempt to go after all the former City of Heroes players and force them to delete their game clients, but its not true that NCSoft just handed out the client "for free." It wasn't, in the legal sense, free to use for any purpose in perpetuity.
If memory serves, the EULA for City of Heroes specified that the game client was licensed to players, and technically speaking we are no longer entitled to have it or use it any more.
As I recall, a number of people have noted that NCSoft distributed the game publicly in a manner that allowed people to download and use the client without agreeing to the EULA -- in effect publishing the software without condition. It would make for a strange court case.They eventually updated the client to include a button where you could view the EULA from within the client, and its uncharted legal territory to claim that while one knows there is a EULA and its easy to read someone decided explicitly not to read it so they could claim they didn't know they were violating it when they were using the software.
They eventually updated the client to include a button where you could view the EULA from within the client, and its uncharted legal territory to claim that while one knows there is a EULA and its easy to read someone decided explicitly not to read it so they could claim they didn't know they were violating it when they were using the software.
The EULA is in effect a contract, and contract law is full of caveats that state the *mechanics* of executing a contract are normally considered to be presumptive *evidence* the contract exists, but not technically *mandatory* for a legally binding contract to exist. A legally binding contract exists essentially when both parties act in a manner consistent with the contract existing. That's why there exists such a thing as an oral contract, where there is no paper at all. Its difficult to sometimes *prove* it exists, but if you can prove that person A and person B both agreed to contract terms and were both aware they were entering into a contract, then the contract exists even without any signed piece of paper.
If you know the game client requires agreeing to the EULA as a person knowledgeable in how game software generally works and how NCSoft's software works in particular, and you use it knowing a EULA exists, the legal argument could be made that launching the client presumes you agree to adhere to the terms of the EULA. Courts generally frown on people willfully attempting to exploit ambiguous technicalities in the law. If you didn't know there was an EULA, that would be one thing. Knowing and willfully ignoring it will not impress the court.
I'm also not finding the EULA in the client -- where is this feature to view the EULA from within the client?
Somewhat ironically, when they moved it from the launcher they put it after a successful login but before server selection. So it is currently impossible to view the EULA from the game client as it requires a functional server to do so.
Problem solved! :D
Paragon wiki has copies with several revisions including sept 2011.
yeah it popped up every time I loaded it. And a copy of it was and probably still is in the COX files and folder.
... and/or a printed copy in the box when you bought it (did it come with one? I honestly don't remember).Nope! All my boxes have a (couple) disc(s), a quick-help keyboard guide, a mini introduction guide thingy, a couple friend-codes for both City and NCsoft's "other titles", and the NCsoft "other titles" spam leaflet.
basically.
In any event, it doesn't much matter. If it went to court it would boil down to the same old argument of "Can a software license legally place restrictions on the usage of software, or only the distribution?" Results will vary depending on jurisdiction.
You can still view the EULA in the client by launching a cityofheroes.exe shortcut with -project coh in the target line and using any username/password. Don't bother selecting the unnamed server though. It just dumps you back to the login screen after a minute or so with a can't connect to DB popup.
Discovered this by accident when trying to bypass the launcher after they announced the game was closing. Didn't know the extra arguments were listed in addcache.xml at the time so I used Process Explorer. :D
Wait so is seeings though a server comes up does that mean that some server files are located client side, Or is it simply a default preset?
Ah yes, I forgot about fakeauth...
What you're seeing is a development and testing shortcut called "fakeauth" mode. It's something I ran into when dissecting the client but ultimately didn't find any use for.
When launching the game you would specify -auth [ip] to tell the game which auth server to connect to. The NCSoft launcher took care of that. Really old versions used a registry entry instead of a command line parameter to locate the auth server.
Normally you connect to the auth server and log in, then it hands you a list of dbservers to choose from. Upon picking one you connect to that dbserver and get a list of characters.
Fakeauth mode is what happens when you leave out -auth. In that case you'd give it -db [ip], and the game will fake a login screen, then connect to a dbserver directly without really authenticating you. Obviously that would only work for a development server that is set up to allow unauthenticated connections. The client gives you a fake server list with only the IP address you specified in -db listed.
Now if you don't specify either -auth OR -db, the game thinks that it's in a fakeauth mode (because there's no auth server). But since you also left out -db, you get whatever the static default for the dbserver is, which in this case is "DEFAULT", with an IP address of 0.0.0.0.
So, still no?
I would think it could be quite risky to try to get a court to tell people not to use the software you gave them... the court might reasonably, actually consider the question of "why" -- as in "who is harmed"?In the court of public opinion perhaps, it would be a public relations problem. But in a court of law, that question is entirely meaningless when it comes to intellectual property. "But it doesn't hurt them" is not an affirmative defense in intellectual property cases.
Huh, that's really interesting, Arcana. I always thought that my initial outlay of cash got me ownership of the client software and my sub fees rented access to the server services -- under which notion I expected the EULA to cover only the latter. This in turn led me to conclude that what remains on our PCs at this point is ours, bought and paid for. Is this demonstrably not the case?
Wait, does that mean that -- if they wanted to -- Eidos could decide I'm not allowed to re-play any of the old Tomb Raider games I bought? Could Atari legally make me destroy my old Tank and Adventure cartridges for the 2600?Basically yes. Although technically you could refuse to destroy the physical media as you own that, but they could then force you to destroy the software contained within them by whatever means you want to comply with the order.
...technically speaking the copyright owner of any software you bought could legally prevent you from running it, because running it requires copying the software from the media to your computer's RAM...
Wait, does that mean that -- if they wanted to -- Eidos could decide I'm not allowed to re-play any of the old Tomb Raider games I bought? Could Atari legally make me destroy my old Tank and Adventure cartridges for the 2600?
Ha ha, brilliant. Sounds like a case of taking words meant to apply to printed medium (where it makes perfect sense) and applying them to a new medium without understanding the technology.
as far as the atari console and cartridges? no. those are analogue technology and not protected by the DCMA. You literally, physically, bought a copy of the hardware and software when purchasing the carts which used solid state transistor tech to encode their data, therefore you own that copy in perpetuity and can do what you like with it until such day as it dies or you do.
as to the rest. kill all the lawyers.
Azrael, I feel your pain which is why I prefer running open source software with GPL or BSD licenses where I can. Most of the software is pretty good and almost every business app has an open source rival. And, some of the open source is better than the for pay software.
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No Surrender!
And as much as I like Apple kit they're sitting on 150 billion and it's never enough as they raise the entry prices on their desktops.You know, it was not all that long ago when people were wondering if Macs were a novel but endangered species, and the betting pool was whether they would be bought by Sun and turned into their cute low end gimmick or bought by Oracle and disassembled for the technology or bought by Sony and turned into a VAIO subbrand. No one seriously thought they would even still be around in 2014 that wasn't insane. Part of the culture Jobs brought to Apple was that Apple was no longer going to play everyone else's game. They were not going to be the best among many, they were going to be the only among nobody. They were going to create their own market, target only those customers that wanted that market, and charge a premium for that market. That's why the focus on high end laptops, then iTunes and iPods, then iPhones, then iPads. And in every case, the same thing happened. Some people said it was too expensive, and Apple said if its too expensive for you, too bad for you.
as far as the atari console and cartridges? no. those are analogue technology and not protected by the DCMA. You literally, physically, bought a copy of the hardware and software when purchasing the carts which used solid state transistor tech to encode their data, therefore you own that copy in perpetuity and can do what you like with it until such day as it dies or you do.Oh boy.
While I'm thinking about it, you can get to the mac's command line now. It's basically BSD unix under the hood. Based on NeXT and not FreeBSD as many believe.NeXTstep was built with a Mach kernel and a NetBSD-like OS layer above it to give it a BSD-Unix/POSIX like environment. OSX is based on NeXTstep with significant modifications over the years.
There's even talk of building desktop PCs so they can boot either windows or android.I honestly have no idea why anyone thinks this is a good idea, at least in terms of a business manufacturing decision. If you could wave a magic wand and make it happen, sure. But the design decisions that go into making an Android platform and a Windows platform are completely different, and attempting to make something that is optimized for both is likely to fail, and something that is optimized for neither is definitely going to fail (as no one will want to buy it).
NeXTstep was built with a Mach kernel and a NetBSD-like OS layer above it to give it a BSD-Unix/POSIX like environment. OSX is based on NeXTstep with significant modifications over the years.
I honestly have no idea why anyone thinks this is a good idea, at least in terms of a business manufacturing decision. If you could wave a magic wand and make it happen, sure. But the design decisions that go into making an Android platform and a Windows platform are completely different, and attempting to make something that is optimized for both is likely to fail, and something that is optimized for neither is definitely going to fail (as no one will want to buy it).
Desktop PCs can afford to throw hardware resources away on tasks, so running Android in a hypervisor (perhaps with some dedicated hardware support) makes sense to me. Dual booting makes no sense to me.
We are moving into the world of implanted technology.That replaces conventional computing? Not in fifteen years. Its worth considering what most people ignore when they talk about a future with self-driving cars. Want to take a guess as to the single biggest problem with self-driving cars? No one knows how to insure them. Without a way to regulate liability for a technology like that, it will never be a mainstream technology. That's also why we don't have flying cars. Its not that its hard to make a flying car. Its hard to make a flying car that is impossible for a stupid driver to kill dozens of people on the ground with.
Want to take a guess as to the single biggest problem with self-driving cars?
For me it would be the taking of the driving away from me. For me that would be like a self-playing game or a self-reading book; it removes the element I like best about the activity.
Which is also why I've never understood PLing.
That replaces conventional computing? Not in fifteen years. Its worth considering what most people ignore when they talk about a future with self-driving cars. Want to take a guess as to the single biggest problem with self-driving cars? No one knows how to insure them. Without a way to regulate liability for a technology like that, it will never be a mainstream technology. That's also why we don't have flying cars. Its not that its hard to make a flying car. Its hard to make a flying car that is impossible for a stupid driver to kill dozens of people on the ground with.
Some implanted technology is coming, and its inevitable that there will be certain applications that become highly ubiquitous. But there's already a backlash to the loss of privacy associated with Google Glasses. There are environments where I'm still required to surrender my camera phone: I would be literally unable to be a professional in the IT industry in my current capacity if I had the kind of technology implanted you're describing. No one would allow me anywhere near them. Those kinds of accommodations to technology tend to be the things futurists fail to account for when they attempt to project where technology is going and how fast it is going to get there.
No one, and I mean no one, is going to walk into an Apple store and have surgically implanted technology inserted into their bodies on the spot. Just the practical reality of deploying bioimplanted technology is daunting and it would take years just to figure out the logistics. And that's only after you find a company crazy enough to take on the liability issues associated with that. We only just got past lawsuits against cell phone companies claiming the radiation from them was giving people brain cancer.
As a novelty, sure. As ubiquitous sign-up-grandma technology? Not for decades.
For me it would be the taking of the driving away from me. For me that would be like a self-playing game or a self-reading book; it removes the element I like best about the activity.
Which is also why I've never understood PLing.
The cars will likely monitor your driving and if you drift too often or too far, the car will take over. That will be the safety feature. The convenience feature will be the option to turn it on at anytime which most will consider doing when on the interstate or highway.They already have cars that monitor your driving. There are cars that monitor your driving so closely and carefully that if you get too close to something in front of you, it will apply your brakes for you. If you come up to something stopped at too fast a speed, it will STOP your car for you - some of the new Mercedes can do it in a matter of a couple seconds: faster than it would take you to notice the thing, move your foot from the gas to the brake, and begin applying the brakes. Some cars even monitor when going in reverse - never again back into that pole you can't see out your back window!
If you're worried about being watched them go ahead and barricade yourself in your home and stop using your debit/credit cards and no checks.Actually, post-cryostasis for me (most likely), in the far future, this is in fact exactly what I plan on doing. There won't be any privacy anywhere in realspace, so I'm moving into virtual space - permanently.
On the other hand, it could be continued independence for older people who are no longer able to drive themselves. Or for people who are physically unable to drive themselves.
You realize a movie is, in a sense, a self-reading book.
As for PLing, I'm guessing you would say the journey if I asked what is more important. The destination or the journey.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. Those that had a working body who lost part of it will likely want the freedom of having it back again.You are conflating replacement body parts which we already have and are developing better versions of, and augmentation technology which is still very limited in scope. And those people make a conscious effort, when its necessary, to take the risks associated with implantation surgery for the benefits thereof. There's a presumption that those risks are reasonable risks. If something goes wrong when someone is trying to get an iPod implanted, their relatives are not always going to take the position that risk was reasonable.
I'm under the impression that Arcana meant places that have security clearance issues. This may not be exactly the situations Arcana's in, but I have a friend who got top secret clearance for the government, and he said that there are certain rooms / places where you can't bring in technology, and anything you write down on paper has to stay in the room. It's a far cry from the RIAA getting angry over downloading mp3s to the government protecting top secret material.That's an obvious situation, but there are others less obvious but no less unarguable. Many hospitals and health care organizations bar camera phones in certain areas due to HIPAA concerns. Many financial institutions bar camera phones in sensitive areas for other regulatory reasons. Technically speaking, if you are even a waiter at a restaurant and you had augmented vision implants, you would personally need to pass a PCI audit or you wouldn't be allowed to handle credit cards. And you would have to prove to your employer they could verify you did not record card holder information. Because if they let you work there, and you steal that information, not only would you be liable, they would be also for being stupid enough to hire someone with eyeballs that could record credit card numbers.
I couldn't disagree more. There are many media for presenting stories: oral, written, stage, film, game... Each has its own advantages, style options, etc. There are some books that would never work as films. Hasn't stopped Hollywood from making movies of them, of course. :-)Because every story can be told in different ways by different media, every story told in one media can be adapted for a different media. But that doesn't mean every story can be translated perfectly, particularly ones that explicitly attempt to leverage the media they are in. Scott McCloud talks about this in Understanding Comics and some of his other works: reading a comic is an active, not a passive experience in which the writer/drawer is attempting to *evoke* the story in the mind of the reader, not simply describe it. Because that evocation is very specific to the media, in many cases its impossible to translate into other media.
You are conflating replacement body parts which we already have and are developing better versions of, and augmentation technology which is still very limited in scope. And those people make a conscious effort, when its necessary, to take the risks associated with implantation surgery for the benefits thereof. There's a presumption that those risks are reasonable risks. If something goes wrong when someone is trying to get an iPod implanted, their relatives are not always going to take the position that risk was reasonable.
I work in the auto industry, this stuff is fascinating and exciting and technology improvements are moving at breakneck speed!
Want to take a guess as to the single biggest problem with self-driving cars? No one knows how to insure them. Without a way to regulate liability for a technology like that, it will never be a mainstream technology.I can't wait for that one. I hate traffic jams with a passion and will not miss them at all. Imagine knowing exactly when you will get somewhere for a change!
I also won't miss the over 30,000 deaths each year from traffic accidents. No more worrying about drunk drivers either. If saving over 30,000 lives a year isn't a compelling reason to do it, I don't know what else would convince.That assumes that everyone would want one. I, for one, don't even like automatics. I'm staying with a stick shift and driving myself, thank you. But I don't care about other peoples' self-driving cars (as long they're not crashing into me).
Because if they let you work there, and you steal that information, not only would you be liable, they would be also for being stupid enough to hire someone with eyeballs that could record credit card numbers.
And it will go faster and faster. The car tech you mention is the beginning of those systems, and, as impressive as they are (they are quite impressive indeed), they're nothing compared to what will be coming.
Yes, that is true. I am certain we will not miss the several million jobs currently being held by people driving trucks, cars, trains and dare I say, airplanes. What could possibly go wrong?! Think of the newfound leisure these people will "enjoy." Plus, computers are infallibly right, right? No one would maliciously hack a vehicle would they? Nah.
Oh brave new world, that has such unemployment in it.
With that said, yes I still need a private server or the smarts and cash to make one for us. 8)
Yes, that is true. I am certain we will not miss the several million jobs currently being held by people driving trucks, cars, trains and dare I say, airplanes. What could possibly go wrong?! Think of the newfound leisure these people will "enjoy." Plus, computers are infallibly right, right? No one would maliciously hack a vehicle would they? Nah.
Oh brave new world, that has such unemployment in it.
Just like we miss the thousands of switchboard operators, the tens of thousands of people in the calculating pool, the hundreds of thousands of people in the typing pool, the telegraph operators, coaling station employees, pony express riders, and manual typesetters. Think of how much more infallible the ice box was than the modern refrigerator. As long as the ice delivery guy kept coming, the only thing that could break was the hinge on the door. And if everyone had to post on the internet through stenographers, just imagine the increase in grammatical accuracy and the decrease in impulsive flame wars.
Also, unless your primary vehicle is a 1978 Datsun, people can already hack your car.
That depends. Do you think we can automate the creation of private servers?
But this has nothing to do with private servers
That depends. Do you think we can automate the creation of private servers?
That depends. Do you think we can automate the creation of private servers?
Yes, that is true. I am certain we will not miss the several million jobs currently being held by people driving trucks, cars, trains and dare I say, airplanes. What could possibly go wrong?! Think of the newfound leisure these people will "enjoy." Plus, computers are infallibly right, right? No one would maliciously hack a vehicle would they? Nah.
Oh brave new world, that has such unemployment in it.
With that said, yes I still need a private server or the smarts and cash to make one for us. 8)
And because we have organized our society around the wonderfully effective (and generally beneficial by any measure) capitalist market system, the massive increase in future wealth from tech is going almost exclusively to investors (and the bulk of that to venture investors) which excludes the vast majority of our society. So how, in this future, is the half of all people with below 100 IQ's supposed to survive?
That depends. Do you think we can automate the creation of private servers?Yup/// I'll have skynet get right on that... 8)
... we'd be in serious trouble if the machines became self aware.
A robot accidentally develops the ability to feel love. Per its programming, it continues to weld brackets to VW Jetta doors until obsolete.
Yup/// I'll have skynet get right on that... 8)
Just like we miss the thousands of switchboard operators, the tens of thousands of people in the calculating pool, the hundreds of thousands of people in the typing pool, the telegraph operators, coaling station employees, pony express riders, and manual typesetters. Think of how much more infallible the ice box was than the modern refrigerator. As long as the ice delivery guy kept coming, the only thing that could break was the hinge on the door. And if everyone had to post on the internet through stenographers, just imagine the increase in grammatical accuracy and the decrease in impulsive flame wars.
Sure someone could hack my car. But why bother, when soon we will be able to hack the nearest jumbo-jet.Sorry to disappoint you again, but we can already do that also. Current commercial passenger jets are already so automated there's no more automation to add. If you ask them to, they can take off and land themselves. Its the rules that prevent that from happening, not the lack of technology.
None of these automated things have the capability to launch 250 or so people into flaming, screaming death or to cause a 200-car pileup on your nearest freeway. Lack of pilots and drivers could certainly do that, because computers are not exactly self-aware and there will be no human in the driver's seat to keep an eye on things. Of course, we have pilots and drivers with malicious intent NOW. But EVERYthing being on autopilot is going to make it soooooooooooooooo much easier to complete tasks of mass destruction.Estimates are that over 10,000 people die due to alcohol related traffic accidents and over 1500 due to fatigued drivers every year. About 3000 people died during the 9/11 attacks. Preventable traffic accidents already generate a death toll comparable to a 9/11-level attack every three months. If a terrorist organization used automation to kill as many people as the 9/11 attacks did, each and every year, that would be a 75% lower death toll than currently occurs on US highways due to stupidity.
What the 1% forgets is, if no one has a job we wont be able to buy their products - and I will laugh when it happens.The 1% doesn't sell products, and will probably ironically be the primary group of people still hiring human drivers if automated driving technology became pervasive.
Just like we miss the thousands of switchboard operators, the tens of thousands of people in the calculating pool, the hundreds of thousands of people in the typing pool, the telegraph operators, coaling station employees, pony express riders, and manual typesetters. Think of how much more infallible the ice box was than the modern refrigerator. As long as the ice delivery guy kept coming, the only thing that could break was the hinge on the door. And if everyone had to post on the internet through stenographers, just imagine the increase in grammatical accuracy and the decrease in impulsive flame wars.That was what I was going to say.
Also, unless your primary vehicle is a 1978 Datsun, people can already hack your car.
None of these automated things have the capability to launch 250 or so people into flaming, screaming death or to cause a 200-car pileup on your nearest freeway. Lack of pilots and drivers could certainly do that, because computers are not exactly self-aware and there will be no human in the driver's seat to keep an eye on things. Of course, we have pilots and drivers with malicious intent NOW. But EVERYthing being on autopilot is going to make it soooooooooooooooo much easier to complete tasks of mass destruction.Pessimistic.
Lack of pilots and drivers could certainly do that, because computers are not exactly self-aware and there will be no human in the driver's seat to keep an eye on things.There are self-driving cars in the southwest. They have NEVER gotten into an accident that didn't involve the human in the driver seat taking hold of the wheel.
Twenty years ago I would be on the other side of the argument, trusting far more a human to ake the decisions behind the wheel. but computers are getting very good at data analasys, while humans are getting stupider and stupider and I wouldn't trust many f them to pilot a tricycle, let alone a three thousand pound automobile.Automated driving is less about judgment and more about technical capability. It is extremely rare for a human driver to be given a life or death choice requiring the exercise of human judgment to perform the proper maneuver. It is far more likely that a human drive is given a situation requiring extraordinary action from a limited number of options, often just one: breaking suddenly to avoid a collision for example. And even more likely is simply executing the normal act of driving in a straight line within the traffic lane without losing concentration or attention span and while not physically or mentally impaired. I would not expect a computer to correctly judge what critical option to take when confronted with a dangerous situation with limited information and no obvious logical options. But I don't expect a human being to do so either: I expect the human to do the wrong thing almost every time in that situation, and statistically they do not disappoint me.
Please bear in mind, I'm not saying for a fraction of a second that we should stop, slow, or oppose this trend. The improvements in manufacturing and later in traffic will generate GIGANTIC increases in real wealth (in manufacturing are ALREADY doing so) -- I'm saying that this change will be large and fast ENOUGH that we NEED to make some kind of economic change to accommodate it before it completely breaks our economic system. (and we'd better get started).
In effect, we are going to transform the occupation of a large percentage of our people to be no more inherently productive than the occupations of those who have inherited sufficient affluence that they don't need to work for a living. I THINK we are going to have to legally define our citizens (speaking U.S. here) as "Investors" in the economy. As folks make LOTS of new money here due to the stability of our economy and society, we're going to have to charge them for that stability.
And pay the "investors" dividends in the form of assured minimum income funded by taxes because they won't be able to get jobs.
It will take a pretty impressive PR campaign to convince people to give up control of their cars. If you make it optional, it will change nothing as one goober playing the fool will kill the benefits. It goes against our very nature to turn control of our fate over to someone or something else. We only do it when we have no choice or don't realize what we are doing. I think it would have to be mandatory.1. You don't have to convince people to give up control of their own cars. You just have to convince them its in their best interests to force everyone else to give up control of their cars.
Arcana,
You should try James P. Hogan's Voyage from Yesteryear which posits a very similar make up. Here the traded commodity is skill. Pretty good book. It basically has the exact triggers you suggest with a nuclear war and a remote colony with a sophisticated tech system. Very libertarian in som eways but don't let that put you off. A very good read!
The problem with this type of economic system, in terms of trying to make it work in the real world, is two-fold. First, it requires a level of technical sophistication and surplus resources that we don't currently have. Second, it was able to be established throughout the planet because its ideological competitors were decimated in a nuclear war. How you get there from here without both of those triggers occurring I'm not sure.
Not to mention the fact that in Star Trek, most people we see, even non-Starfleet, want to do something - I think it'd be more likely that with a surplus of energy / resources, most people would sit around and playHolodeck operations are probably expensive. You can't live in one on your energy credit allowance, unless you work to earn more.video gameson the holodeck all day.
I've also always thought that the nature of Star Trek's post-scarcity economy would only be achievable following the massive wars we hear referenced, and I don't think it's worth it.
Estimates are that over 10,000 people die due to alcohol related traffic accidents and over 1500 due to fatigued drivers every year. About 3000 people died during the 9/11 attacks.
There are self-driving cars in the southwest. They have NEVER gotten into an accident that didn't involve the human in the driver seat taking hold of the wheel.
The 1% doesn't sell products
Also, it puts a huge burden on people in lower income brackets who can't afford a new self-driving vehicle. With mobility in most cities very limited when you don't own your own car, that's likely to create a whole class of people with little to no physical mobility.
They own the companies that DO sell products.You're really missing the point. The "1%" you refer to, who are really more the 0.1% of wealth holders, do not sell things, mostly do not known companies that sell products, and would remain the 0.1% even if they stopped earning wages of any kind, assuming at the moment they actually do. Mark Zuckerberg does not sell any product, does not own any company that sells an actual product, and earns exactly one dollar a year. Part of the reason there are less of certain kinds of manufacturing jobs is because people don't want those things anymore. The majority of the US economy is service-based, and most of the "1%" don't make anything, they make their money on services. And even if they stopped earning that money, they already *have* most of the money.
What I am imagining is millions of driverless cars, and I just do not believe that they'll all be perfectperfectperfect.You are expressing yourself on an automated system connected to an automated system managed by a set of automated systems. Without those imperfect automated systems, you would be expressing yourself to a crowd of eight people from a literal soap box.
Insurance companies could offer discounts for confirmed use of it. People who choose to drive manually would face higher liability and higher insurance costs. And accident rates would still go down if most people choose to use it, even if one goober doesn't and kills someone. One goober can't possibly kill 10,000 people in a single year to make up the difference.
The problem with this type of economic system, in terms of trying to make it work in the real world, is two-fold. First, it requires a level of technical sophistication and surplus resources that we don't currently have. Second, it was able to be established throughout the planet because its ideological competitors were decimated in a nuclear war. How you get there from here without both of those triggers occurring I'm not sure.
Automated driving is less about judgment and more about technical capability.
All I can say is that I'm not giving up manual control of my car, whatever the trend to do otherwise is. In fact, I'm looking at possibly going the "classic car" of some sort route specifically to avoid all of these lovely new Big Brother features.
That system you refer to is known as barter, and all it takes is complete loss in the faith of currencies. It doesn't require nuclear war. As for surpluses, most every place has too much of one thing and not enough of another. People barter for the things they need with the things they got. Things, by the way, might be general manpower or skills and not just something tangible.The system being described is not a barter system except in the most superficial of senses; in the same sense as I barter money for Starbucks. The concept of shortage-free economies has nothing to do with the notion that in a free market excesses are distributed from one place to another. The question is what happens when certain goods become effectively unlimited for everyone, everywhere in non-trivial non-cornercases, such as energy. This is not just something I made up for discussion yesterday: its an actual field of academic discussion. What happens in an economic system where needs cost nothing to deliver? Do you artificially constrain supply to retain a hierarchy of exchange? If you don't, what prevents arbitrage seekers from attempting to leverage that free supply to non-contiguous parts of the market?
Motorcyclist checking in to confirm:
Agreed. Everyone is targeting me. And I'm targeting myself. I figure if I watch all us jerks, I might be able to avoid something untowards.
And I do that whatever I'm driving. Motorcycle or car, doesn't matter. World's out to kill me, and so'm I if'n I ain't careful.
The system being described is not a barter system except in the most superficial of senses; in the same sense as I barter money for Starbucks. The concept of shortage-free economies has nothing to do with the notion that in a free market excesses are distributed from one place to another. The question is what happens when certain goods become effectively unlimited for everyone, everywhere in non-trivial non-cornercases, such as energy. This is not just something I made up for discussion yesterday: its an actual field of academic discussion. What happens in an economic system where needs cost nothing to deliver? Do you artificially constrain supply to retain a hierarchy of exchange? If you don't, what prevents arbitrage seekers from attempting to leverage that free supply to non-contiguous parts of the market?
"Barter" doesn't really answer those systemic questions, because no barter system in history had congruent properties.
I'm guessing you've never ridden a motorcycle on city streets where the difference between good judgement and bad judgement is life or death. I ride a Suzuki Boulevard S83. What others are doing and how I will react to what they might do is always on my mind.Motorcycles are not cars. Even so, if motorcycle operators only exercised the same legal options available to cars, that need for good judgment would largely be eliminated. You're using "judgment" in a colloquial sense to cover all aspects of driver decision making. But there's a fundamental difference, from an automation perspective, between the decision to stop in time to avoid a collision, which requires skill but no complex judgment, and the decision on which path to take to navigate a hazardous road, which no automobile driver is *supposed* to exercise, because they are legally required to limit their maneuvering to only safe maneuvers within designated roadway markers. Taking emergency action because, say, a driver changed lane without clearing a blind spot is not an exercise in judgment. Its taking the only action proscribed under those conditions. That doesn't require an expert system to figure out.
1. You don't have to convince people to give up control of their own cars. You just have to convince them its in their best interests to force everyone else to give up control of their cars.
2. The Department of Transportation just issued a new rule mandating rear view camera systems in all new cars manufactured after May 2018. If the technology proves effective and will save lives, its possible to mandate it.
3. You could still make it optional and have it be effective. Insurance companies could offer discounts for confirmed use of it. People who choose to drive manually would face higher liability and higher insurance costs. And accident rates would still go down if most people choose to use it, even if one goober doesn't and kills someone. One goober can't possibly kill 10,000 people in a single year to make up the difference.
Motorcycles are not cars. Even so, if motorcycle operators only exercised the same legal options available to cars, that need for good judgment would largely be eliminated. You're using "judgment" in a colloquial sense to cover all aspects of driver decision making. But there's a fundamental difference, from an automation perspective, between the decision to stop in time to avoid a collision, which requires skill but no complex judgment, and the decision on which path to take to navigate a hazardous road, which no automobile driver is *supposed* to exercise, because they are legally required to limit their maneuvering to only safe maneuvers within designated roadway markers. Taking emergency action because, say, a driver changed lane without clearing a blind spot is not an exercise in judgment. Its taking the only action proscribed under those conditions. That doesn't require an expert system to figure out.
"Human judgment" within the context of discussing automation, deals with the case where the computer is presented with a situation in which there are a number of possible distinct options, *none* of them with a computationally guaranteed chance of being successful. The case where you are required to make the choice to take the only possible action that safeguards your life is skill, not judgment. That sort of skill is far easier to program into a computer than genuine judgment, which is not needed for automated driving. In almost every case where an emergency situation arises, you can either slow down or stop, or change direction to avoid the problem. Only in an incredibly small number of cases will options similar to those not be available or not be applicable. Humans make life more difficult by making those choices harder to execute, for example by following another car too closely to make an emergency stop. A computer would be programmed to simply not do that, so an emergency maneuver was always possible.
The hard part is getting a computer to be able to do it at all. But most of the hazards on the road are due to human drivers operating their vehicles in a manner that reduces the options for hazard avoidance. A computer, driving conservatively, would not have to deal with most of those kinds of problems because they would not exist for an automated driver.
I don't think that you will get the speed and efficiency that you need to sell the system with a mix of manual and automatic driving. One guy driving slowly will pretty much kill high speed automatic driving.
I don't think you can sell this system on the basis of saving lives. If you could, we would limit gun purchases and outlaw cigarettes. I don't think people care about saving other people's lives and they certainly don't think they will be part of the statistics. Mostly they want to know how it benefits them. To me this like the promise of electric cars but even harder to sell.
Adding new features, like rear view mirror cameras, doesn't invalidate the current vehicles but his tells me that we aren't talking about the same system. I'm seeing a system where all the cars have to be automatic. Higher speeds and super efficient engines to reduce carbon emissions and less time spent commuting to me are the big draws.
But mainly this doesn't address either my infrastructure concerns or how this would effect so many people who can't really afford even crappy used cars.
I would like to point out that you are confusing skills with judgement.As it pertains to automation systems, I'm very certain I'm not.
I don't think that you will get the speed and efficiency that you need to sell the system with a mix of manual and automatic driving. One guy driving slowly will pretty much kill high speed automatic driving.
I don't think you can sell this system on the basis of saving lives. If you could, we would limit gun purchases and outlaw cigarettes. I don't think people care about saving other people's lives and they certainly don't think they will be part of the statistics. Mostly they want to know how it benefits them. To me this like the promise of electric cars but even harder to sell.
Barter system predated money. Money systems were created because you can't cut enough grass directly to buy a car but you can have someone give you money for cutting their grass to trade for the car when you've cut enough lawns.
Barter wasn't meant to answer the questions you are asking. It was a way to trade what you had for what you wanted.
BTW: US Tax code actually addresses barter transactions too by forcing you to place fair market value for the trade and taxing based on that equivalent transaction
Star Trek's economy and a barter system are very different. A barter system is based on Person 1 having, say, a bunch of chickens, and trading their eggs to Person 2, who has a bunch of cows and is trading their milk. Or maybe to Person 3 for a car. Either way, each person has something extra they can trade, and they put a certain value on that thing, and trade for an equivalent value of what other people have. There is a limited amount of "Stuff" in the economy, and it has to be traded for survival, or the ability to have things.Beyond that, its also not a barter system because there's evidence many of the trades are not directly reciprocal. Meaning: in DS9 you see that the Sisko family has a restaurant in New Orleans. They use what's implied to be real grown groceries, not replicated food. Customers eat there but there's no evidence they pay in money or trade. So Sisko's father isn't directly making anything from the food he cooks and sells. And if he's not making anything, its unlikely he's paying or directly trading for the groceries he uses (and its unlikely he's also a farmer capable of growing all the food his restaurant uses). So there's evidence of a pay-it-forward system of trade that is not barter: farmers giving Sisko's father produce not directly in trade for something back, but probably just to contribute to someone who is himself contributing to society in an interesting way. Maybe there is an enlightened self-interest involved where the reason they do it is because they like to eat in organic restaurants themselves and contributing to one helps them thrive. But its not barter, its a reverse tragedy of the commons where instead of people exploiting a common they are instead motivated to contribute to a common (of sorts) because there's no need or incentive to over exploit it. In a scarcity-based economy, there's always an incentive to exploit frictionless supplies like unrestricted commons. In a non-scarcity economy, that incentive could hypothetically go away, leaving behind pay-it-forward based micro-economies embedded within the larger base surplus economy.
But in Star Trek, no one needs to trade, because they can just go to a replicator and get their eggs, or milk, or car, or robot mower, whatever. Why should Person 1 give up their eggs to Persons 2 or 3, when they can go get milk or a car for free? Ok, so maybe grass-fed cow milk is a luxury that tastes better than replicated stuff. So you trade for it, but you don't have to. All essentials are available to everyone, and everyone can have a happy healthy life without effort. Anything beyond that is for personal fulfillment - whether you decide to create art and trade for delicious real milk, or become a chicken farmer to trade eggs for real milk, it's something that you choose to do, not because you gotta get your dollar a day to pay for things.
You know, these systems ARE smart enough to deal with complex road conditions, like being the only (or one of the few) driverless cars in traffic or even jackknifing trucks knocking wheels and barrels into the roadway -- and they demonstrate dealing with them better than humans. These guys are REAL GAME CHANGERS! And the impact isn't just going to be on automobiles.
In an MMO with a private server architecture, the question arose as to how you could possibly make that work economically. ...
If it doesn't see widespread adoption it will just be another toy for those with lots of disposable income. Personally, I would rather see development of cleaner and more efficient engines prioritized over automatic driving.This came up with the CoH developers also. Why are they wasting their time making costumes when everyone knows powersets are more important. Why are they making more incarnate trials when we really need new zones?
Are you referring to "loot" or crafting materials, or server resources like space / bandwidth?More generally, how do you convince players to support shared servers, which cost money to run, when they have their own server and don't need the shared server to play the game? There have to be incentives beyond classic access control (i.e. login access or gates to content) because on their own servers they have the keys to all the gates.
This came up with the CoH developers also. Why are they wasting their time making costumes when everyone knows powersets are more important. Why are they making more incarnate trials when we really need new zones?
Separate from the fact the developers saw different priorities, there was the more salient fact that the people who made costume parts didn't and couldn't make missions; the people who made powersets could not make zone maps. The people who are making automated driving systems do not, and cannot, make engines.
More generally, how do you convince players to support shared servers, which cost money to run, when they have their own server and don't need the shared server to play the game? There have to be incentives beyond classic access control (i.e. login access or gates to content) because on their own servers they have the keys to all the gates.Well, I contributed $1,000 to City of Titans, and if I had to pay $100 per month for "City of Heroes Classic" (private/community servers), well, I couldn't reach for my credit card fast enough.
The answer might be that with the basics of access to the game wide open, that creates the opportunity to explore new incentives for people to support shared infrastructure beyond the desire to socialize. Community generated content, for example. Public notoriety for another - the desire to accomplish things in a communal forum rather than in a private area. Maybe a critical mass of stuff can accumulate so that separate from the individual ways in which the shared servers are superior to the private ones a meta incentive would arise where people would support a shared server specifically for the things they don't even know might be coming in the future, but assume will be coming because of past history demonstrating the community system works in unpredictable ways.
I am talking about societal goals not individual enterprises. Should we as a society pursue automated driving or more efficient engines or something else entirely?The problem is that absent the mythical monolithic entity, the powers that be tend to be highly nebulous. For example, even if it was possible to form a social consensus to prioritize energy efficient engines over automated driving systems, to whom would you convey that priority list to? Google? They don't make engines, so they can't enact that priority decision.
They are not mutually exclusive but neither are they linked.
I also think that the issues of the effects on our society should be factored into whatever the decision that they powers that be make. Obviously, (unless you are conspiracist) there isn't a single monolithic entity that makes the decision. But the discussion about the topic needs to be more than just "can we". This specific conversation may not have any effect on anything, but somewhere there is one going on that will.
If it doesn't see widespread adoption it will just be another toy for those with lots of disposable income. Personally, I would rather see development of cleaner and more efficient engines prioritized over automatic driving.
Do you see these cars as completely self-contained? Would there be communication with roadways and other traffic devices? Would these cars have to follow the same speed limits as non-automated cars? How much will our roadways have to be modified to accommodate this change?
I think this is a vastly more complex issue than just whether it is possible or even desirable.
Google cars use GPS devices and web connection coupled with expert driver software tied to optical, radar, inertial, etc. sensors. They run in any mix of traffic and any road conditions (having the judgement to go on shoulder etc in the event of physical blockage) and require no special support. Google's been running them on Nevada streets under special license for a couple of years now and they out-perform human drivers. The obvious first application is delivery and taxi services -- they will rapidly make all professional drivers obsolete.
The best application is urban settings and Zip-Car type arrangements. Zip-Cars, if you don't know, are fleets of cars owned and maintained by a company that sells access by usage -- you use your smart phone to find an unused car in walking distance, register your use, then go and drive as much as you want, abandoning it by simply parking it when you're done (in the city). They started in San Francisco and we have a similar company serving the OSU campus in Ohio, so they're spreading.
With self-driving cars, they would be distributed around town by control systems, you would use a smartphone to call one and the nearest would pick you up and drop you where you wanted, then rejoin the network. Much faster, cheaper, and more efficient than cabs or rentals, especially in urban settings.
What happens when sunspots disrupt the GPS systems?The Google cars use a combination of GPS signals, an inertial navigation unit, and special odometer-like wheel sensors to determine their position on their internal digital maps. The GPS is actually not critical to local navigation: GPS provides a low resolution position measurement while the inertial system and the wheel sensors determine fine positioning (and are calibrated over long distances by the GPS system).
That's interesting. I didn't know about zip cars, they still have drivers right?
What happens when sunspots disrupt the GPS systems?
Also you should change that "especially" to "only". That kind of system will likely not work very well outside densely populated zones. There has to be enough demand to cover the capital investment and maintenance of a fleet of cars. Further, in less populated area or a suburb you essentially need to have more cars per person not less because are likely to be spread over a wider area and finding one near you will be more difficult. For people to use a service like that it needs to very convenient. More convenient that hopping in your car to go to the 7-11.
While I freely proclaim that we may be just as blind as they were to considering factors we can't see, we should at least consider the ones we can.
Humans make life more difficult by making those choices harder to execute, for example by following another car too closely to make an emergency stop. A computer would be programmed to simply not do that, so an emergency maneuver was always possible.
With the distribution of wealth going the way it is, it will only get worse. We can talk about this as much as you like but a huge segment of the population can't afford the basics of living in the US, much less pricey, auto-driving cars.What makes you think they will be pricey? It costs a lot to invent the technology. It would cost very little to actually deploy it. About as much as a good car stereo.
Also as long as everybody has a smart phone, which they don't.
I actually not that worried about this because I think pretty unlikely to occur. Maybe in a few places, but the bulk of population switching cars they can't afford to buy isn't a likely event, no matter how many insurance incentives their are. But even if what you suggest happens and insurers make it prohibitive people will just drive illegally. They just don't have a whole lot of options. They have to get to work, they have to feed, cloth, provide medical care and housing for their families.
With the distribution of wealth going the way it is, it will only get worse. We can talk about this as much as you like but a huge segment of the population can't afford the basics of living in the US, much less pricey, auto-driving cars. I don't think you realize just how bad it is getting out there.
Amazing technical advances living side by side with soul crushing poverty and hopelessness is no way to insure a bright future no matter what technological marvels we build.
More generally, how do you convince players to support shared servers, which cost money to run, when they have their own server and don't need the shared server to play the game? There have to be incentives beyond classic access control (i.e. login access or gates to content) because on their own servers they have the keys to all the gates.
The obvious first application is delivery and taxi services -- they will rapidly make all professional drivers obsolete.
Guy at party: "I've just ordered the pizza!"
10 minutes later: Guy's cell phone dies / is misplaced / party happens.
20 minutes later: Robo car pulls up, no one hears it because, hey, party. Robo car texts and calls Guy's cell phone. Guy does not get communication due to phone being out of commission.
30 minutes later: Robo car's 10 minute delivery time window is up, it drives away.
OR
2 hours later: someone finally notices the robo car - meanwhile, Pizza company is telling customers who called in the last hour "Sorry, our robo car isn't back yet, your delivery will have to wait."
Guy at party: "I've just ordered the pizza!"
10 minutes later: Guy's cell phone dies / is misplaced / party happens.
20 minutes later: Ding dong!
Everyone at party: "Woo, pizza!"
22 minutes later: Delivery guy: "Man, what a lousy tip. You'd think I was just a robot!"
ALL delivery drivers will be obsolete? I don't know...
Not to mention the inconvenience of having to schedule FedEx deliveries, no matter what - no option to leave with an apartment complex's office, or under the door mat, or in a drop box or whatever.
Perhaps you are suggesting that these will cost the same as a new car does now? If so, then I couldn't afford one at that price and neither can most of the working poor. That is the class that is growing in numbers, not shrinking.I'm suggesting that automated driving technology will primarily affect and its adoption be decided by car drivers. And most car drivers can afford to own cars. Over sufficient periods of time, virtually all those cars will eventually be replaced. Long before all of them are, enough of them will be to decide if the technology becomes ubiquitous.
You are expressing yourself on an automated system connected to an automated system managed by a set of automated systems. Without those imperfect automated systems, you would be expressing yourself to a crowd of eight people from a literal soap box.
I want an car that can drive me to Paragon City... how long before that one comes out?
You don't drive there, silly. You fly there. Or SJ there. Everyone knows this!! 8)I teleport there. ;)
You don't drive there, silly. You fly there. Or SJ there. Everyone knows this!! 8)
You don't drive there, silly. You fly there. Or SJ there. Everyone knows this!! 8)I thought you had to catch the ferry to Paragon City. You can fly in Paragon City, but if you try to fly to Paragon City you'll smash into the War Walls like a bug on a windshield.
I thought you had to catch the ferry to Paragon City. You can fly in Paragon City, but if you try to fly to Paragon City you'll smash into the War Walls like a bug on a windshield.
More generally, how do you convince players to support shared servers, which cost money to run, when they have their own server and don't need the shared server to play the game? There have to be incentives beyond classic access control (i.e. login access or gates to content) because on their own servers they have the keys to all the gates.
Why do you think automated driving removes all other functions? The Fedex guy and the pizza guy just don't need drivers licenses. And if you use tele-operated delivery drone/robots to go from truck to door (segway style technology), you can run your deliveries with one employee doing the work that 25 do today since they only need to pilot at the delivery point, not between.
But the major area is truckers and cab driver like functions.
I thought you had to catch the ferry to Paragon City. You can fly in Paragon City, but if you try to fly to Paragon City you'll smash into the War Walls like a bug on a windshield.I'm not so sure about that. I mean, I don't remember ever seeing any War Ceilings. Just sayin'.
In fact, that's probably how the Rikti were able to bypass them and invade as often as they did. They deployed the awesome might of their highly advanced "go over it" technology.
In fact, that's probably how the Rikti were able to bypass them and invade as often as they did. They deployed the awesome might of their highly advanced "go over it" technology.
I honestly have no idea why inter-dimensional beings, space aliens, and ancient gods keep trying to invade Primal Earth, but its like watching a boy scout troop trying to invade the grizzly bear cage at the zoo. Some people run away from danger, some run towards danger. Primal Earth denizens put out lawn chairs and tailgate danger."Hey John."
In one city we have a nuclear reactor constantly overloading, three separate parts of the city definitively haunted, psychic killer robots clogging most of the highways, intelligent killer trees infect a quarter of the green spaces, several miles of toxic chemical spill no one bothers trying to clean up, snipers shooting from the tall buildings, and a giant meteor crater. That people still choose to live in.
Not to mention the unbelievable rate of street crime and the totally revolving-door justice system! I can't count the number of times I put Frostfire away, only to have him right back out and in his headquarters before I could even run across the Hollows.
Well, considering most of the evidence that heroes bring in is gotten through coercion and violence, it's quite possible that none of the charges can stick. In the end, it's really the heroes' fault.
Well, considering most of the evidence that heroes bring in is gotten through coercion and violence, it's quite possible that none of the charges can stick. In the end, it's really the heroes' fault.Evidence?
On Primal Earth we don't care if you invade from space, we just want to make sure you keep your invasion forces in level-appropriate areas. Heck at the prison that houses our most dangerous criminals the outer fences are mostly just a suggestion.
In one city we have a nuclear reactor constantly overloading, three separate parts of the city definitively haunted, psychic killer robots clogging most of the highways, intelligent killer trees infect a quarter of the green spaces, several miles of toxic chemical spill no one bothers trying to clean up, snipers shooting from the tall buildings, and a giant meteor crater. That people still choose to live in.
I honestly have no idea why inter-dimensional beings, space aliens, and ancient gods keep trying to invade Primal Earth, but its like watching a boy scout troop trying to invade the grizzly bear cage at the zoo. Some people run away from danger, some run towards danger. Primal Earth denizens put out lawn chairs and tailgate danger.
"Hey John."
"Hey, just got off work; what's going on at the park?"
"Ooh, some bug guy calling himself the Ch-thraxi Emperor just announced that the planet is now under his mighty foot as the Tungsten Force showed up."
"Tungsten Force? That the group that focuses the thermal stuff and big weapons?"
"Yeah, they brought a bunch of heroes waving those stupid huge rocket hammer things and three or four who do that fire shield and radiation stuff."
"Oh yeah! ...That's gonna hurt... And he's down! That didn't take long."
"You missed the first two hours where the 'Emperor' kept dropping these pod things full of soldiers into the park to 'form the anchor of my empire'."
"So that's why all those dump trucks were outside bringing traffic to a crawl."
"Yeah, one of the pods even knocked my grill over and started a grass fire; luckily an ice blaster put it out before it could spread. At least they missed my cooler."
"Betcha ten bucks Sky raiders show up to loot some Ch-thraxi gear in the next ten and get their asses kicked."
"You're on, but I'm betting it's Freakshow. Want a beer?"
Star Trek's economy and a barter system are very different.....
Not to mention the unbelievable rate of street crime and the totally revolving-door justice system! I can't count the number of times I put Frostfire away, only to have him right back out and in his headquarters before I could even run across the Hollows.
I never said Star Trek's economy was a barter system. In fact, ST's economy is likely communistic.You said the system I was describing was a barter system, when I was describing the economy of Star Trek (which it is not). Its also definitively not communistic because its not based on a socially mandated distribution of a superabundance of goods. Its based on a system of post-scarcity of essentials combined with meritocratic social service structures (i.e. Star Fleet) and free market micro-economies. If the economic model of Star Trek was communistic, it would be essentially impossible for individuals to trade with non-Federation societies, for example. There is clearly an extremely strong socialistic safety net, but its not implemented through redistribution, its implemented via massive supply of certain critical goods, in particular energy. Private ownership exists throughout the Federation and there are consistent examples of it. Private intellectual property exists, for example, because people are shown to own the rights to inventions. Private trade exists, as traders exist within the Federation and that trade between the Federation and other species. And outside of non-scarce materials there is still a market system of some kind, as people engaged in scarcity-related industries are described as being rewarded in some way (for example, the dilithium miners in Mudd's Women are doing that hazardous work because they believe it will make them rich, and Harry Mudd himself believes he can get rich in some fashion trading his drugs). In the TNG episode The Price the Federation bid units of currency - Federation credits - for access to the wormhole; credit that Federation personnel often used in Quark's bar in DS9. These credits are probably not money as we know it, but serve similar purposes in certain environments. Beyond the minimums, even in the Federation there are rich and not-rich people, so the system isn't an equidistributive one.
You said the system I was describing was a barter system, when I was describing the economy of Star Trek (which it is not). Its also definitively not communistic because its not based on a socially mandated distribution of a superabundance of goods. Its based on a system of post-scarcity of essentials combined with meritocratic social service structures (i.e. Star Fleet) and free market micro-economies. If the economic model of Star Trek was communistic, it would be essentially impossible for individuals to trade with non-Federation societies, for example. There is clearly an extremely strong socialistic safety net, but its not implemented through redistribution, its implemented via massive supply of certain critical goods, in particular energy. Private ownership exists throughout the Federation and there are consistent examples of it. Private intellectual property exists, for example, because people are shown to own the rights to inventions. Private trade exists, as traders exist within the Federation and that trade between the Federation and other species. And outside of non-scarce materials there is still a market system of some kind, as people engaged in scarcity-related industries are described as being rewarded in some way (for example, the dilithium miners in Mudd's Women are doing that hazardous work because they believe it will make them rich, and Harry Mudd himself believes he can get rich in some fashion trading his drugs). In the TNG episode The Price the Federation bid units of currency - Federation credits - for access to the wormhole; credit that Federation personnel often used in Quark's bar in DS9. These credits are probably not money as we know it, but serve similar purposes in certain environments. Beyond the minimums, even in the Federation there are rich and not-rich people, so the system isn't an equidistributive one.
Its probably the case that *Earth's* economy no longer uses money for most local economic purposes, but each planet in the Federation has its own local economy that can be different. Across the Federation trade occurs using a Federation-wide system of exchange and credits, and even Earth citizens can earn credits, which can be used in currency/market based systems.
Here is what I was referring too: "If you want to have organically grown food as a lifestyle choice, you have to become a farmer. Or get it from a farmer, perhaps by trading some other skill."
Trading some other skill for organic foods is barter.
Now to the other part of the question: All societies that exist or have existed have elements of capitalism, socialism, and communism in them. While we consider the system in use in the USA to be capitalism, we have elements of socialism and communism. Even the Soviet Union had capitalistic elements. Just not that many. When I call a society a capitalistic, socialistic or communistic society, I'm referring to the overall. Is it mostly socialism? Is it mostly capitalism? There are plenty of examples I could pull from any (real) society you can name for all three systems. Communism being the hardest to find of course given our society's disdain for it, but it is still present.
Now as for Star Trek, you first must keep in mind that it isn't real. Depending on the author who wrote the book/movie/short story/etc., you will find varying degrees of each system. And I'm talking about just within the Federation. I'm not talking about Klingons, Romulans, or Feregi. Even the movies can't agree. In some shows, walk into a bar and order a drink. No reference to paying. Customer walks out. Walk into another bar and you pay or you leave. And in still another you're told your credit's good. Even in Quarks bar, I never saw Mr. O'Brien pull out a slip of gold pressed latinum to pay for his Ale and he certainly ordered quite a few throughout the seven years DS-9 ran. Now Quark did make many references to putting it on his bill which confirms there's a system of money but then why the speech between Lilly and Picard in First Contact about not being paid? Picard's answer was, "we work to better ourselves." OK. So how did Mr. O'Brien get credit to pay for his bar tab? And while a society could be a communistic society, that wouldn't stop it from trading with others. It makes goods and services and while it might not use money internally, it can externally.
More generally, how do you convince players to support shared servers, which cost money to run, when they have their own server and don't need the shared server to play the game? There have to be incentives beyond classic access control (i.e. login access or gates to content) because on their own servers they have the keys to all the gates.
My question about private servers wasn't answered, so maybe that's a good place to go back to?
I guess for an MMO, that's a concern... maybe? But there's plenty of single-player (and non-MMO multi-player) games out there that have large communities, lots of social interaction, and even user-generated content - without shared servers. I guess I need to see the point of a shared server - do you (the game-maker) want social interaction? Money? Communal events?
Alright, dude. We're not going to see eye to eye. I'm not going to convince you. You're not going to convince me.That's almost never my intent in posting. My intent is to post a valid logical argument for my posted position. Long ago, I decided having goals beyond that on the internet is unproductive.
The point to shared servers would be: that's what MMOs are. I wish it was more interesting of an answer, but that's all.
Edit: A kind of cheap way to "incentivize" playing on a shared server is making the game have lots of group activities, that require other characters to complete. So on a private server, if someone doesn't have enough other players, they get NPCs to help out. The devs then make the AI really dumb, so it's all but impossible to complete these group tasks without other players.It sounds cheap, but fundamentally speaking the only advantage to playing on a shared server instead of a single player game is that there are more players. Somehow, you need to make having lots of players around an advantage that doesn't appear cheap in order to make a successful MMO. Or rather, not too obviously cheap. WoW, for example, during its boom phase was as much a watercooler experience as an actual MMO. Friends would play, get their friends to play, talk about the gameplay, and go play more game, whether they even played directly with each other or not. For many people, that was their first real experience of being embedded in a social community of game players.
Similarly I don't play MMOs for the gameplay, I can find a singleplayer game that does it just as well without the subscription or cash shop.
Can someone please direct me to a non-MMO singleplayer game that lets me create custom Superheroes and fight crime? (yeah, I know, there aren't any).
Can someone please direct me to a non-MMO singleplayer game that lets me create custom Superheroes and fight crime? (yeah, I know, there aren't any).The closest thing I can think of to that would be Freedom Force, assuming you were willing to plug into the modding community. The original game did not have a character customizer, but I know the modding community at one time had mods to add all sorts of new characters and abilities to the game. I'm not an expert at FF modding, so YMMV.
Saints Row IV, except you're not very superhero-y... you are, however, pretty much a metahuman. You can do some ridiculous pancake in that game (like playing pingpong with your body and traffic).
Automated driving is less about judgment and more about technical capability. It is extremely rare for a human driver to be given a life or death choice requiring the exercise of human judgment to perform the proper maneuver. It is far more likely that a human drive is given a situation requiring extraordinary action from a limited number of options, often just one: breaking suddenly to avoid a collision for example. And even more likely is simply executing the normal act of driving in a straight line within the traffic lane without losing concentration or attention span and while not physically or mentally impaired. I would not expect a computer to correctly judge what critical option to take when confronted with a dangerous situation with limited information and no obvious logical options. But I don't expect a human being to do so either: I expect the human to do the wrong thing almost every time in that situation, and statistically they do not disappoint me.Best part? We wouldn't have to worry about a computer having to make those critical decisions very often because there wouldn't be stupid people in the other cars to cause those dangerous situations. 8)
If it is proven that driverless Cars reduce crashes in a significant way mass Insurance companies -will- offer discounts for it because it will save them money in the long run, say Crashes are reduced by 10% that gives the insurance companies the ability to reduce the price by 5% and pocket an extra 5% of profit.Just thought of something else. When auto accidents approach zero...why would we need insurance companies?
Just thought of something else. When auto accidents approach zero...why would we need insurance companies?
Something tells me the insurance companies are going to be lobbying hard against this one.
Just thought of something else. When auto accidents approach zero...why would we need insurance companies?I suspect they won't in general. First, it will take decades for the technology to have a major impact on insurance companies. Second, the insurance industry would likely shift from making the bulk of their auto industry revenue from insuring individual drivers to providing product liability insurance to auto manufacturers. And third, the insurance industry does not have a history, so far as I'm aware, of opposing safety standards in industries they insure simply to protect profits. That's ghoulish even by actuarial standards.
Something tells me the insurance companies are going to be lobbying hard against this one.
Just thought of something else. When auto accidents approach zero...why would we need insurance companies?
Something tells me the insurance companies are going to be lobbying hard against this one.
I would not be surprised to see law enforcement against self driving cars. The cars aren't likely to speed, get into accidents, run red lights/stop signs, park illegally, and the various other things which human drivers do. Less of those means less need for police.There will always be a need for police. Fewer traffic violations won't lessen that by much, if at all.
Normally I'm anti-nanny state, but I wouldn't mind seeing a law that if you get caught drinking and driving, you are banned from driving in manual mode and can only use computer-driven cars.I am, too, but I could also live with that. As a matter of fact, if your car can essentially become your "designated driver," well then, you could go out and drink as much as you wanted without ever having to worry about a DUI (unless of course you were so drunk you actually tried to drive manually). ;)
There will always be a need for police. Fewer traffic violations won't lessen that by much, if at all.
I am, too, but I could also live with that. As a matter of fact, if your car can essentially become your "designated driver," well then, you could go out and drink as much as you wanted without ever having to worry about a DUI (unless of course you were so drunk you actually tried to drive manually). ;)
I would not be surprised to see law enforcement against self driving cars. The cars aren't likely to speed, get into accidents, run red lights/stop signs, park illegally, and the various other things which human drivers do. Less of those means less need for police.That was the next thing I thought of!
There will always be a need for police. Fewer traffic violations won't lessen that by much, if at all.
That was the next thing I thought of!
But even more of a reason for law enforcement to oppose it....revenue goes away. No more speeding, running red lights, parking tickets means a massive reduction in revenue. It won't be the police specifically....but which ever government branch gets this money will not like that very much.
Normally I'm anti-nanny state, but I wouldn't mind seeing a law that if you get caught drinking and driving, you are banned from driving in manual mode and can only use computer-driven cars.I don't know how we got off on this tangent, but I would LOVE to have a computer-driven car. I LOATHE driving, and being able to hop in, browse the Internet, sleep, or just chair-dance down the interstate is like a dream come true.
I don't know how we got off on this tangent, but I would LOVE to have a computer-driven car. I LOATHE driving, and being able to hop in, browse the Internet, sleep, or just chair-dance down the interstate is like a dream come true.
I enjoy driving, but I hate traffic. I'd enjoy being able to put the car on Autopilot when I didn't want to deal with traffic, and back to Manual for open roads.yeah I probably wouldn't buy an full time auto pilot car. Although it probably will be funny to watch the clamoring to figure out at crash site if the car manufacturers is at fault or the driver or who with cars that drive themselves. Likes computers, and as far as they have came, they still crash they still bug out, they still get viruses, and they still get hacked. But then again, would be be drunk driving if a drunk have it on auto pilot and the car was technically driving it self?
Also, I want my car to sound like William Daniels and have Super-Pursuit Mode as an option.
I was thinking more along the lines of an anatomically correct and fully functional female HRD (Human Replica Droid) from Star Wars to pass the travelling time while the car drove itself.Ah yes... the classic boomers...
Or maybe one or two model # 8 cylons (aka boomer).
Conversely, if municipalities in the long run have to spend less money on managing traffic, traffic accident disruptions, etc, it could end up at least washing out the overall expense. And automated driving significantly increases the carrying capacity of existing roads, reducing the need to add traffic capacity to highways and city streets.Excellent point.
The Texas highway system has not kept pace with the needs of a rapidly increasing population. Over the past 25 years in Texas, our population has increased 57 percent and use of our roads has almost doubled. However, state road capacity increased only 8 percent during this time.
I don't know how we got off on this tangent, but I would LOVE to have a computer-driven car. I LOATHE driving, and being able to hop in, browse the Internet, sleep, or just chair-dance down the interstate is like a dream come true.Right there with you. Driving gives me tired-head. Driving in traffic makes me ill-tempered. I'll be at the head of the line.
Oh yeah, I would TOTALLY use it on my drive home from work. The highways around here are parking lots anyway, so if I can let the car drive along at 5mph while I put my feet up andThe best part is that "parking lot" will go away with automated cars. Remove human stupidity and you eliminate traffic jams.troll the forumsbrowse the internet, so much the better.
Me, I love driving my new 2014 Mustang GT Coupe (Deep Impact Blue), hate traffic & slow drivers in the left lane who wont move over.I read that 4% of the population are sociopaths so they may be the ones on the roads actively seeking to irritate other people. :D
I read that 4% of the population are sociopaths so they may be the ones on the roads actively seeking to irritate other people. :D
Using cruise control really shows you how stupid a lot of drivers are. People routinely speed up and slow down, make passes and slow down, slow down during a pass and ride beside you in the passing lane (blocking traffic), speed up as you try to pass them. I've even figured out that you must pass someone by over 5 mph in order for them not to subconsciously speed up as you go by. If you are just easing by them with your cruise control on, most drivers speed up to match your speed. It's fascinating.
Excellent point.
I tend not to trust government though. They always seem to want more revenue. They usually overtaken any cost savings. One example being in Texas where they are now building toll roads routinely. Their excuse is this:
http://www.texastollways.com/content/about-toll-roads.php
The revenue for roads comes from the use of roads (gas taxes)...so that means revenue has also "almost doubled" too. (they forgot to mention that part of course) Even if you allow for increased gas mileage over the past 25 years, they've still gotten a huge boost in revenue so there is no excuse for only increasing road capacity by 8% and now claiming they can only build new roads via toll.
So I fully expect the government to waste the cost savings garnered through automated cars and beg poverty in the future.
The best part is that "parking lot" will go away with automated cars. Remove human stupidity and you eliminate traffic jams.
Irritating of course but that doesn't include the pseudo-police who actively try to box you in thinking it's their duty to slow traffic down. Wonder how many accidents are due to these people?
I'm sure you're aware of those that believe we need a per mile tax also. Last time I checked we had one of those already. We called it a gasoline tax per gallon. This per mile driven tax though would require gps systems in our cars with a download of our driving so we can be taxed. Amazing what I could learn about you by looking at where you've been taking your car. I could see all kinds interested parties like: divorce lawyers, insurance companies, various crime prevention agencies, various health/safety agencies. Shall I continue?
I couldn't agree more and it would be easy to force auto cruise. We already have in car breathalyzer devices that stop you from starting a car if you are drunk. Pretty easy to force a breathalyzer before human cruise can be turned on.
Sadly this would not lower DUI's at all. Not in my state at least. While DUI laws are very good to have around to deter people from driving drunk. In my hometown. DUI's are just something police give out to people when they are bored. You have an open beer in the back of your seat, you pass all tests including the blood. Too bad DUI. You are too drunk to drive so you sleep in your car and put your keys on the tire or even down the street. Too bad DUI. You hop on a bike, skateboard, longboard, horse, razor scooter because you are too drunk . Bam DUI. You friend is hammered in the front seat holding a sealed bottle of wine. Bam DUI. Just by being in the car you would get a DUI. Just by thinking about taking an automatic car home would get you a DUI in this town. Its how they pay for everything. I had a friend who got a DUID because his shirt had a weed leaf on it and even after he passed a drug test they still charged him with a DUID. In my home town they have a saying. "Come for vacation stay for probation" and all of it is from DUI's. The 0% tolerance works though. I won't even drive after drinking 1 beer which would have me well below .08% and that is still enough to get a DUI in this town. So people learn to never drink and drive, not even 1 beer.
You don't need GPS for that, just a bunch of traffic cams connected to a good network -- in fact it doesn't even need to be government, a few hundred cooperating individuals could probably build a comprehensive view of all traffic movement in a city with inexpensive hardware and passive cameras. I've been wondering if some anti-abortion co-op movement/church would be the first ones to implement in order to track and protest anyone visiting an abortion clinic.
I don't know how we got off on this tangentRemind me again how long you've been an active member of this community?
Irritating of course but that doesn't include the pseudo-police who actively try to box you in thinking it's their duty to slow traffic down. Wonder how many accidents are due to these people?I never considered that angle. I'll bet there are people like that.
Assuming no glitches or malfunctions happen.Oh I'm sure it will happen occasionally. Which would mean traffic jams would only be reduced by 99% instead of 100%. 8)
Sadly this would not lower DUI's at all. Not in my state at least. While DUI laws are very good to have around to deter people from driving drunk. In my hometown. DUI's are just something police give out to people when they are bored. You have an open beer in the back of your seat, you pass all tests including the blood. Too bad DUI. You are too drunk to drive so you sleep in your car and put your keys on the tire or even down the street. Too bad DUI. You hop on a bike, skateboard, longboard, horse, razor scooter because you are too drunk . Bam DUI. You friend is hammered in the front seat holding a sealed bottle of wine. Bam DUI. Just by being in the car you would get a DUI. Just by thinking about taking an automatic car home would get you a DUI in this town. Its how they pay for everything. I had a friend who got a DUID because his shirt had a weed leaf on it and even after he passed a drug test they still charged him with a DUID. In my home town they have a saying. "Come for vacation stay for probation" and all of it is from DUI's. The 0% tolerance works though. I won't even drive after drinking 1 beer which would have me well below .08% and that is still enough to get a DUI in this town. So people learn to never drink and drive, not even 1 beer.That, or decide to move out of Hazzard County.
I never considered that angle. I'll bet there are people like that.There are people like that. I've had to deal with them on occasion while going to and from work. They are most irritating.
I have to admit I get that urge but don't act on it. Really only when one of those crotch-rocket motorcycles zooms by at 90mph weaving in and out of traffic causing people to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting them. How do those guys stay alive?
My guess would be absolute luck. They'll think that it's because of their phenomenal skill controlling the bike. But, it's not. It is pure unadulterated luck.It is, and I've seen what happens when that luck runs out first hand: its not pretty.
Oh I'm sure it will happen occasionally. Which would mean traffic jams would only be reduced by 99% instead of 100%. 8)
I can live with that. ;D
Wow, this thread has been so thoroughly derailed. Makes me nostalgic for the alt hierarchy on Usenet, lol.i was just going to comment on how much i was enjoying this thread 21 pages in mostly because it had wandered so far off topic. ;D
Wow, this thread has been so thoroughly derailed. Makes me nostalgic for the alt hiarchy on Usenet, lol.
Indeed.
But hopefully they glitch or need software update every two hours or new car dealers and mechanics would be out of business. :D
A trip to Florida could involve a lot of reboots of the car there. So do you boot your car in the morning instead of start it? If it stalls, does that mean a reboot?Just avoid scheduling long drives on patch Tuesday.
How about support issues. What if they flash a corvette's bios on a mustang or a cobra by mistake? Or how about installing the wrong car bios? Does that invalidate the warranty? I could just see it now, "I flashed the mustang's bios on my fiesta thinking I'd get more performance out of it but I bricked my car instead :'(" That's be one expensive brick!
That, or decide to move out of Hazzard County.
We all know that private servers are a long way off. Talking about other things is a good way to wait and keeps the forums active. Don't worry about things going off topic as long as it doesn't upset people or cause an argument. If a breakthrough for private servers or plan Z happens, i'm sure things will return to the original topic almost instantly.Agreed. Keeping everyone engaged is the thing.
As for autodriving, the biggest problems would hit tourism and road trips. The preprogrammed routes would likely not cross small rural areas without major advertising. Back when the first highways were built, many small towns died because people had no reason to go through them and stop there anymore. The same thing would happen with auto driving technology. Yard sale? What's that? Not to mention that routes could be changed by corporations or government desires. Pitstops could be routed based on corporate brand name desires. Routes could be changed by government to avoid protest and prevent protesters from gathering, which would affect free speech. Auto driving could be great by lowering accidents and nearly ending traffic problems but it could also be bad. The human element needs to always remain an option.I don't see why it would not be an option for people to decide what route they wished to take. Seems like a no-brainer really. Some people might just want to punch in the destination, but others would choose the exact route for reasons you mentioned....things like a preference for a pit stop. People aren't going to suddenly not care about paying more at 7-11 for the same items.
We all know that private servers are a long way off. Talking about other things is a good way to wait and keeps the forums active. Don't worry about things going off topic as long as it doesn't upset people or cause an argument. If a breakthrough for private servers or plan Z happens, i'm sure things will return to the original topic almost instantly.
As for autodriving, the biggest problems would hit tourism and road trips. The preprogrammed routes would likely not cross small rural areas without major advertising. Back when the first highways were built, many small towns died because people had no reason to go through them and stop there anymore. The same thing would happen with auto driving technology. Yard sale? What's that? Not to mention that routes could be changed by corporations or government desires. Pitstops could be routed based on corporate brand name desires. Routes could be changed by government to avoid protest and prevent protesters from gathering, which would affect free speech. Auto driving could be great by lowering accidents and nearly ending traffic problems but it could also be bad. The human element needs to always remain an option.
I'm entitled as Titan's resident zilla. >:(
Somebody is shooting their mouth off in one of the CoH FB groups that there is a private server. I call BS but ...
Examples
"There is a private server out there."
"Um no I've seen and played it with my own eyes And hands last month. It's invite only and was suppose to a huge secret."
"The people that run the private server had inside help from a few devs and help with server storage. It is the full game with all events and content."
... I just find it really hard to believe that during the chaos of what was going on, someone managed to secretly make a copy of dozens of gigabytes of code and assets or else walk a hard drive right past NCsoft and law enforcement. (That would take immense balls, though, and would be a GREAT addition to the book/movie of our story once we get the game back!)
If there is a private server out there, and if someone is keeping it secret, and if there's only a small group of people playing on it, and if they're determined for it to stay that way...
As long as you don't destroy it with your atomic breath while hunting MUTOs! :)I have *very* good aim, I'll have you know! I only knock over buildings I don't like the looks of. (Seattle's music museum, the EMP, is the first one to go.)
I don't believe for one second that there is an invite-only private server out there and it magically had nothing to do with and no exposure on these forums. It's one of those completely incomprehensible people that somehow gets a kick out of confusing people and causing trouble. I will never understand that kind of behavior.In my opinion the likelihood of them being even slightly truthful is almost imperceptibly small and i suspect i'm being generous.
I fully invite them to prove me wrong and shoot me an invite to this supposedly 100% authentic server with all content and events running, but I highly doubt that kind of claim. Especially saying that it was "suppose (sic) to be a huge secret" and then proceeding to spout off about it on facebook.
Invite any of us? You'd have a better chance sleeping with your favourite actor/actress than get that invite.
Third of all, I've heard from multiple sources within Paragon Studios that during the meeting in which everyone was being laid off, someone from NCsoft was physically at their building on Leghorn Street shutting out accounts. If I recall correctly, there was even a police officer at the building to make sure everything went smoothly. I've actually had a couple of former artists contact me because they got locked out of their own artwork and needed copies of assets from the game for their portfolio to interview for other jobs. I just find it really hard to believe that during the chaos of what was going on, someone managed to secretly make a copy of dozens of gigabytes of code and assets or else walk a hard drive right past NCsoft and law enforcement. (That would take immense balls, though, and would be a GREAT addition to the book/movie of our story once we get the game back!) I will concede that it is possible that someone might have chunks of code or even a complete copy that they may have, for example, taken home with them in the past to work on at home, but a lot of companies crack down even on that kind of thing, and who knows what kind of state such code would be in.
I should probably point out that that argument is totally flawed, as it assumes that no one at Paragon Studios considered the possibility of a shut down while the buy out negotiators were going on, and didn't do a little data transfer work as a kind of back-up - a sort of Plan Z option, if you prefer ;)
[...] Have you all ever noticed that even on days like April Fool's, I've never once posted a message, even joking around, [...] because I know that such comments can be misconstrued, and next thing you know, people have hurt feelings over it. [...] Please don't feed the trolls.George Takei gets me every April 1st with posts that I want to believe so bad I forget what day it is.
George Takei gets me every April 1st with posts that I want to believe so bad I forget what day it is.What!?! They're not making an Excelsior movie? :'(
I never even knew I wanted an Excelsior movie until that joke.
Joking about something that people are actively looking forward to is quite a different animal, though.
I should probably point out that that argument is totally flawed, as it assumes that no one at Paragon Studios considered the possibility of a shut down while the buy out negotiators were going on, and didn't do a little data transfer work as a kind of back-up - a sort of Plan Z option, if you prefer ;)
Then ask for an invitation to their private server. Let us know what you find out.
I've also fielded some PMs about this as well. Look, folks, it's really easy. If someone says there's a private server out there, then the proof, I say, is in the pudding. The correct reaction to this news, considering that you're not going to be invited to such a server, is, "Until you can prove to me that this server exists, I do not believe you." It is not, "I will consider this maybe true until some indeterminate time has passed that makes it highly unlikely by some arbitrary standard of confidence..." because I'm telling you, you will never meet that level of confidence, and the trolls will have won by driving you nuts.
Have you all ever noticed that even on days like April Fool's, I've never once posted a message, even joking around, saying that there is a private server up and running, or that some kind of deal has been made and the game is relaunching? I kind of doubt you've ever noticed it, but the truth of the matter is that I have actively avoided making such claims, even in a joking manner, because I know that such comments can be misconstrued, and next thing you know, people have hurt feelings over it. People want to know who's running it, why they haven't been invited, who they can talk to to get invited, who else is part of it, are more people going to be invited, how they can offer input into the process, etc.
That reason right there why I don't even jokingly refer to a private server or game relaunch? That's what makes such a claim ripe for trolls to exploit. Please don't feed the trolls.
Also, most of them had like, what, a weekend to clear out their offices?Not even that, IIRC, they were given notice and immediately escorted off the premises, and their personal effects mailed to them later. SOP, unfortunately, for a lot of big companies.
The thing is, somebody like Tony V can make his own code to emulate the game, and it'd be somewhat semi-legal because it's still HIS code. In the same way that if I draw an Iron Man drawing, I don't own Iron Man, but I still own my DRAWING.