Author Topic: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.  (Read 333277 times)

JaguarX

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #780 on: January 12, 2014, 05:36:43 AM »
I don't know why nc chose to kill off coh.  I tend to agree that they should have folded the servers into 1 or 2 and let the game live with little to no support beyond the usual, "I'm stuck" type of help.  Frankly, I would have been happy if they never issued another issue.  I doubt will ever get the real reason and am willing to bet at least half here wouldn't believe it anyway.  That's why I say the reason they killed it is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that unless we make it free to play, it will generate revenue.  Certainly enough to hire a full time programming staff, artisans, writers, etc.  Likely we'll get even better support.  It's a win for almost everyone.  The only one who losses is ncsoft and that I don't have any issues with.

And I figure we're talking somewhere between half to two mil per month once it's up assuming nc doesn't find a way to kill it.  I'm also reasonably certain the teams developing our new homes are taking necessary precautions.  The biggest problem we have is giving those teams time to complete their work.
well the idea of server mergers and slowing down on issue releases been brought up a couple of times through out the years and man were their riots and a resounding "NO!" against it. Mostly worries about names. Of course in hindsight if chosen between what happened in the end and simply picking another name and dealing with old content for a while, I think , keyword, I think many would gladly choose server merger. I was one of those people long ago saying maybe servers should be merged because some of them were all but empty. Lot of flame for that. But people that mentioned it on the forums got the business much worse.

Although I think someone had a decent point against the content slow down thing at the time. It may give the appearance that the game was in maintenance mode, aka dead in the water.

And yeah no matter what reason they give true or not, I don't think many people would believe them anyways so what would be the point. Business wise, realignment reason is common, happens all the time in the business world and is always viewed as valid reason...until it affects the product that that particular person cares about or use. Then it's not good enough. Kind of like jails and prisons. People clamor to get more built but fight tooth and nail to prevent one from being built in their neighborhood. You know, but it in anyone else backyard besides mine sort of thing.

but yeah no revenue should be made or that is gift drop lawsuit.


You know, Pontiac dead brand GM have no plans on bringing it back. Thus it's not making money for them just like any other IP a company may sit on. They were actually in financial trouble too yet, still turned down an offer someone made them for the brand and they had dealership set  up for it, factory set aside and everything and ready the whole nine yards plan for it. GM turned them down flat but they are selling Saturn and Hummer. They needed the money too. In most cases companies may not need the money  yet some sell their IP some don't. Why? Who knows. Why do some people fight tooth and nail for an outcome that they want and others simply believe they have no control of what happens? Who knows.

Now, do this mean the person can go and produce his own car as a business, and sell it as a Pontiac? No. He cant even make his own car using no Pontiac or GM parts and slap the emblem on the hood even though GM is not using it. Or even use the distinctive Pontiac grille. Even if he planned on giving the cars away for free. Victim of company realignment, although a bit more involuntary, end result ended the same. Realignment, some stuff had to go.

But...he can create his own car that rides, feel, handles, even use the same electronic OBD codes, and looks like a Pontiac if one squint their eyes and use a different arrow head emblem design like color navy blue  with a serrated edge that is more shorter and wider with a square instead of the cross thing, and even have the same horsepower and performance as a Pontiac.

LadyVamp

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #781 on: January 12, 2014, 04:59:15 PM »
And who exactly wrote the game client again?

That, FatherXmas, is the $64,000 question because that entity is the one who would be sending C&Ds.
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LadyVamp

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #782 on: January 12, 2014, 05:02:16 PM »

That is why it is essential that no money be charged for a reverse-engineering project. Nothing will get NCSoft's attention faster, and not in a good way.

That's kind of like saying, "Star Trek the original series is no longer produced. Hasn't been produced since the 1960s. But I want it back! So I am going to hire my own Kirk, Spock and McCoy. We start shooting in February. Paramount is no longer using this part of the property, so that means its a free for all."

Um, no.

May I refer you to the legal battles between the free BSD OSes and AT&T?  They charged nothing for FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD but AT&T went after them anyway over using AT&T code.
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LadyVamp

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #783 on: January 12, 2014, 05:09:46 PM »
Any servers that get finished from either of the reverse engineering projects will not ever require you to give them money to play. I'm pretty sure everyone working on those projects knows that such a thing would result in a quick and painful lawsuit, and then our only solutions would be the various "Plan Z" games, assuming any of them actually deliver anything remotely close to what we all are looking for in a replacement, or someone winning the Powerball, and dropping a large enough figure to entice NCSoft to sell. And based on all the speculation following the shutdown, it's my belief that that figure would have to be at least 7 to 8 figures to make NCSoft even consider letting go of the IP considering their apparent enjoyment of just sitting on dead properties...

If there's no charge then who is going to pay for the hosting?  Servers and data circuits aren't free.  I suppose the projects could place billboards all over the game map using google ads to supply content.  I could just see an ad for McDonald's on a billboard somewhere.  Maybe a set of golden arches on a corner building.  Maybe even have a stateman like toon hocking hamburgers.
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Gleech

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #784 on: January 12, 2014, 05:12:02 PM »
That, FatherXmas, is the $64,000 question because that entity is the one who would be sending C&Ds.
Not sure if you're understanding how much power a publisher has over a game...

The publisher gains all right to content created for the game they're publishing. No matter who (by the way, I'd be willing to put money down that it wasn't just one person as it appears you're presuming) created the client, NCSoft owns it.

It's the same reason why Posi stated he can't use his own, original character "Positron" anymore. Once he signed the papers and created Positron as a character for City of Heroes, he's no longer allowed to use that character for any other project he works on. NCSoft holds the rights to it. Sure, Posi originally created Positron. But the problem is that the publisher holds every and all rights to the game and all content. Anything created for the game is owned by NCSoft, meaning the client is owned by them as well.

In fact to all you saying "Well NCSoft is just handing us the client! It's clearly free to use!"... Well then why is it that they required the only access to the client to be through the NCSoft Launcher? Remember that thing? As well as the fact that I believe the only downloads for the i24 client are fan-hosted. I don't believe NCSoft is officially hosting the client download anymore. If memory serves correct, you have to download a torrent or you'll have to download it off some site a fan uploaded it to.

If there's no charge then who is going to pay for the hosting?  Servers and data circuits aren't free.  I suppose the projects could place billboards all over the game map using google ads to supply content.  I could just see an ad for McDonald's on a billboard somewhere.  Maybe a set of golden arches on a corner building.  Maybe even have a stateman like toon hocking hamburgers.

I can run a server just fine from my own computer. Also, sites like... well, for example, this one, could host the server, but accept donations or something and end up putting that towards the server. (Not saying that there's no way to sue for that, but I've seen sites do that before)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 05:17:40 PM by Gleech »

Shenku

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #785 on: January 12, 2014, 05:23:57 PM »
I can run a server just fine from my own computer. Also, sites like... well, for example, this one, could host the server, but accept donations or something and end up putting that towards the server.

Exactly. The idea is to run our own servers without the perception that any profit is being made, because if there appears to be profits involved, NCSoft will be throwing more than just C&D letters out, their lawyers will be looking to get that money plus percieved damages or some such. Long story short, whomever they nail with that lawsuit is going to be bankrupt afterwords.

And yes, servers would cost nothing extra if you're running them from your own computer, so in cases like that, donations for offsetting server costs wouldn't even be needed because there is no cost to begin with.

Gleech

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #786 on: January 12, 2014, 05:42:31 PM »
Yeah the donations thing was just basically a "last resort" kind of thing. I'm personally all for just running servers from our computers. (In fact I was hoping such a thing would exist, purely for my friends and I to play on a customized private server for our needs. We do a lot of roleplaying and I'm hoping to have a server all to ourselves and our roleplays. xD Not to say we wouldn't play on bigger, more populated servers, but there's a time and place for that as well as there being a time and place for our roleplays.)

TonyV

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #787 on: January 12, 2014, 06:05:47 PM »
May I refer you to the legal battles between the free BSD OSes and AT&T?  They charged nothing for FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD but AT&T went after them anyway over using AT&T code.

That's a little different in that BSD and various commercial Unices were still being actively used.  The free versions actually financially impacted AT&T.  It's also important to note that everyone who has gone after FreeBSD, Linux, the FSF, etc. has lost--those products are still out there, and the cases that were lost or settled set important precedents that allowed other free software to flourish.  I can't emphasize enough that if NCsoft were to pursue suing people and lose, it would significantly damage not just their business model, but that of virtually every online game.  I've said this before and I'll say it again: They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by going after people.

If there's no charge then who is going to pay for the hosting?  Servers and data circuits aren't free.

Some folks would run them voluntarily.  For small communities, hosting isn't THAT expensive.  Some folks might even run servers out of their residence.  For larger communities, funding servers would probably be a voluntary effort, as the Paragon Wiki and the Titan Network is (see bottom right corner).

Illusionss

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #788 on: January 12, 2014, 09:22:52 PM »
http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/

I started feeling sweaty, just looking at that page. Sweaty as in, a sweat of fear *for* the people doing this. Do they have some kind of agreement with Paramount?!! Now this looks like it has "SUE ME PLZZZZZ!" written all over it. Truly, those people have cojones of brass; I would not be able to sleep at night for fear of impending legalities.


Ohioknight

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #789 on: January 12, 2014, 09:53:42 PM »
I started feeling sweaty, just looking at that page. Sweaty as in, a sweat of fear *for* the people doing this. Do they have some kind of agreement with Paramount?!! Now this looks like it has "SUE ME PLZZZZZ!" written all over it. Truly, those people have cojones of brass; I would not be able to sleep at night for fear of impending legalities.

I have to say that I did find your example rather humorous (ironic?). Seeing as the situation you described was EXACTLY what these people did and pretty much demonstrated that you were wrong.

They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing.  Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).
"Wow, a fat, sarcastic, Star Trek fan, you must be a devil with the ladies"

JaguarX

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #790 on: January 12, 2014, 10:32:11 PM »
I have to say that I did find your example rather humorous (ironic?). Seeing as the situation you described was EXACTLY what these people did and pretty much demonstrated that you were wrong.

They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing.  Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).
different company different view on that type of stuff.

Some "unofficially" allow it, as long as it don't get in their way. Other don't care and hell might even help them build the stuff. Other have zero tolerance no matter what. Other let it go on for a few years then bring down the hammer later. Some don't care as long as there is no middle fingers involved and it's kept quiet. Others don't give a crap and will viciously fight for their exclusive rights to the said property that they spent millions on even if they are not using it at the time. Other Simply state they don't like it, but as long as they don't cross such and such line, have at it. Others send out C&D and leave it at that, a token show that they don't condone it but really wont do anything. Others send C&D and then lawyer and court date even if it's miniscule out of principle. And sometimes it's more about how and what they are doing and in some companies if it's well done and bring good stuff to the stuff as a whole, they let it fly. Other there don't care if it brings 2 million new people to the product, they are going to sue the snot out of ya or try to.

I guess the only way to find out for sure for sure is to simply do it, and see what happens. Nothing may not happen, something may happen. When faced with unknowns it's a folly to automatically assume one or the other event WILL guaranteed to happen in the favor of the ones that may or may not be walking a gray area. It's called a gray area for a reason. And just because one company allows it doesn't mean all companies would allow it in the same situation. Not to mention, it's possible they simply asked and laid down their plan to the owners and gotten the green light and allowed parameters. There are tons of stuff that don't exist now and didn't make big news headlines or catch news for doing stuff that many people would say. Remember most corporate lawyers are not sitting around for years doing nothing until a Fox NEws worthy story crop up every few years. There are a lot of cases that never hit the news they work on, lot of suits and court cases where it's a simple dude that no one heard of getting sued. And even then sometimes the corporate wins, sometimes they lose. Sometimes they gain money when the win, sometimes they don't when they win. Sometimes it's a simple court ordered C&D that take place and not the tv style stuff that many people expect to happen with news cameras and publicity and face and all that stuff people assume corporations are losing sleep over day and night and the end result being one person walking away with a bunch of money and the other left in financial ruin. Usually it's lot more simple and quieter than that with sometimes it's a simply a judge basically saying "Ok, you. STOP IT! Now get out of here."

But if I could be paid 6 figures to sit around to do one case every few years that happens only in the wide spread public light, then hell, I'm in the wrong business eh? :D

Not to mention lawyers are usually human too and some think the company they work for are straight dirtbags but hey it pays the bills while others may have some hardcore loyalty to the company, but usually they are simply doing what their check signers and the law tell them to do and simply doing their job even if personally they feel it (the law) not 100% right and should not exist.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 10:41:15 PM by JaguarX »

Codewalker

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #791 on: January 12, 2014, 11:00:54 PM »
They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing.  Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).

George Takei also guest starred in a different episode as aged / future Sulu, and several writers who were involved both in the original series and the various spinoffs have contributed scripts as well.

I can't find it now, but I remember reading that they had the tacit verbal okay of several of the higher ups in the Trek franchise, so long as they continued to not profit off of it. Same as fan fiction more or less. Nothing in writing though, so if that changed they could still be targeted and forced to stop.

Azrael

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #792 on: January 12, 2014, 11:24:17 PM »
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 11:31:53 PM by Azrael »

Codewalker

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #793 on: January 12, 2014, 11:30:48 PM »
I don't see how they could object.  They gave the client away freely (the body of assets).

They could probably object to people distributing the client since it's their code. That they gave it away before doesn't really hold water if they change the terms.

That's why the official Icon distribution requires a legally obtained client to function, which pretty much everyone who's here should have since they were subscribers. There may be some rogue distributions floating around, but they're not condoned or supported.

Harpospoke

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #794 on: January 13, 2014, 12:12:23 AM »
There's a lot to be said for both wide-open public servers and invite-only private ones. When any player at all is allowed to join a server, you end up meeting people you never knew you wanted to play with. I've met some great friends in City that I don't really have much in common with outside of the game. If I had only ever spoken with them through a forum first, I'd probably not have hung out with them at all, and that would be a shame since I'd be missing out on some really cool friends that way.

On the other hand, I pretty much agree with everything you're saying about why private servers would work well. Each and every server could tailor the game perfectly to that group of players, so that they get to play their perfect game without having to be interrupted by events and players they don't enjoy. The one and only hitch with that is, you only ever get to play with people you already know from somewhere else. You're protecting yourself from the things you don't like, sure, and that's great. But you're also preventing yourself from finding new things that you didn't know you'd like until someone else asked you to try it.

For my money, I think the ideal solution would be to allow both. Set up one public server with "vanilla" rules that anyone can log into, where players can mingle and find new people to play alongside. Also let folks set up their own private servers with their own adjustments to the rules and the environment so they can enjoy the game their way with their group of friends. (Although to prevent cheating, don't let them transfer those characters to the vanilla server.)

But one thing I definitely think should be enabled is for ALL the servers, public and private alike, to be able to hook up to one central set of global chat channels. Anyone on any server could talk to anyone on any other server, as long as you're in the same chat channel. Stuff like Help and LFG and etc would be local to that server of course, but the global channels would be exactly that: world-wide. Just like how someone on Freedom could talk to someone on Liberty if they were in the same global channel. But this way any server, public or private, could talk to any other if they wanted to (as long as it was online of course). I think that would help people get the exact play experience they want, while also still allowing the communication that would keep the playerbase at large interacting with one another.
That's a great post.

Harpospoke

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #795 on: January 13, 2014, 12:19:51 AM »
Well the problem also lies in the the fact that ex COX players are not psychically linked. Meaning if no one hears or know, for protection, then more than likely when "great download" happens, there wont be a bunch of people waiting for something or know of something to download that they dont even know exist. Which, while getting the word out even then, make it easier target for the lawyers than if if was in development stage. Because then now they have then, and have evidence of distribution and dont have to go after the others and instead hold the main source, or as near as they can, responsible for the distribution. Alot of MP3 file sharing sites went down like that thinking if they get it out no one will find them. Lo and behold most got sued for millions and held responsible for distrubution of those files and made it easier to prove the damage, unrepairable damage was done. At the same time, there are many that got away. Just have to be careful and stop being so surely that they are outsmarting every single legal team on the planet. More than likely their plan is not very new or that unstoppable. That is how many get caught. When they start thinking they are untouchable and their plan is infallable and under estimate their enemy, it bites them, usually to their suprise. Too much like it's a sure thing they will get away with it scrot free in Robin Hood fashion and the evil NCSOFT will be conqoured for ever and ever and everyone will live happily ever after while NCSOFT wouldnt dare do anything within their power to fight back. They will roll over and forget about it. Could be. But prepping only for that scenario and not looking at all possibilities that is possible can lead to utter disaster and someone being finanicially ruined for trying to do something they thought was the right thing to do.   

Remember they dont have to supress all copies. And more spread out it gets, the more they can charge as damage caused by the person they catch distrub. If I get a product(used in manner to mean IP trademark, Copyright/ and actual property and or product) and someone steals it and use it for their own, then I dont have to track down every single person that got it. I can find that one, preferable the one that started it, and charge them and make a good case that because of them, all those people that have the copy, that money should have been mine and thus they owe me the market price and damage and business loss of the known people that may have it and a bit more since it is still being distributed due to that person.  In the age of internet, most things if not everything online is traceable from the conversation to the people that suggest doing this to the people that is actually doing it and whether or not they read and or posted here or not.
Heck....just give the files to a person like me and I'll post it.   I've got no money for NCSoft to take.   They think they are going to get millions from me?  Good luck with that.  Bankruptcy laws.   Throw me in jail?   Maybe it would be worth it.   

Harpospoke

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #796 on: January 13, 2014, 01:43:32 AM »
True story, I was just thinking about running my friday night msr. But then I was like F*CK!

I really don't care about the legal bs. The minute someone releases code to get this game playable again I'll be spreading it to every torrent site I can find. F*ck ncsoft and F*ck the EULA. I'm mad as hell not being able to play, losing my internet social groups and friends and losing the best virtual world to ever exist. I'll do whatever it takes to share the game with the world once it's available.
Hells yes!

NCSoft can bite me.  Might be fun to force them to spend a lot of money trying to keep a game shut down that they have no intention of ever opening again and that was going to make them zero profit.   If they are really that idiotic, it would be fun to watch.   That's not to even mention the further PR hit they would take in the gaming community.

Harpospoke

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #797 on: January 13, 2014, 01:52:42 AM »
You're assuming that anyone is a position to send a C&D would even notice.  From what I've heard, NCsoft's U.S. presence is mainly just a skeleton crew of puppets who take and carry out orders from the corporate HQ in Seoul.  I'm almost certain that the people in Seoul are willfully ignorant of what's going on with City of Heroes.  If I were a betting man, I'd wager that they are actually actively tuning us out, and even if someone in actual authority got an email saying, "Hey, there's a private server here," they'd hit delete before reading it, just like they've probably done with every other "Hey, the City of Heroes players are [whatever]..." email.
Sounds like a fun thing for CoH players to do...spam their email box with "Hey there's a private server here" emails leading to shock sites and Rick-rolling.   That should make their finger move quite a bit faster on the delete key I'm thinking.   8)

Illusionss

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #798 on: January 13, 2014, 02:02:23 AM »
I have to say that I did find your example rather humorous (ironic?). Seeing as the situation you described was EXACTLY what these people did and pretty much demonstrated that you were wrong.

They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing.  Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).

Good for them, and for their "please donate here" clickable icon on page one.

I am a considerably more cautious character, and standing on a bare hilltop during a thunderstorm clad in copper armor, holding a sword aloft while shouting "ALL GODS ARE FOOLS!" isn't really my style. If others want to do that, that's their business.

JanessaVR

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #799 on: January 13, 2014, 03:02:27 AM »
Sounds like a fun thing for CoH players to do...spam their email box with "Hey there's a private server here" emails leading to shock sites and Rick-rolling.   That should make their finger move quite a bit faster on the delete key I'm thinking.   8)
I find your suggestion to be despicable and thoroughly dishonest.

So, is there perhaps a spam service I could contact to start doing this for me?   ;)