Author Topic: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.  (Read 333279 times)

Shidan

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #680 on: December 24, 2013, 07:43:41 PM »
Gleech I feel I must point out that you left out the part about how according to EA Zynga "poached three high-level execs from EA who had internal knowledge of The Sims Social for the specific goal of ripping it off."

CoyoteSeven

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #681 on: December 24, 2013, 10:33:20 PM »
NCLimp can sit on a mountain of gold for all I care - and they can then proceed to kiss my ass.  We'll do what we want with CoH at this point - watching them try to play "whack-a-mole" with a thousand private servers will be the funniest thing I've seen in decades.

I'd feel sorry for any particular mole they manage to whack, especially if they decide to make an example of him or her to the rest.

JanessaVR

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #682 on: December 25, 2013, 01:02:48 AM »
I'd feel sorry for any particular mole they manage to whack, especially if they decide to make an example of him or her to the rest.
I work in IT.  Theoretically speaking, if I end up with one, I dare them to try to find it.  I can guarantee they'll spend way more time than they would want to just trying.  I'll take my chances - especially if the source code is released as well and I can change file names, checksums, signatures, etc.  They'll go nuts trying to tear the whole internet apart and never come close to stumbling across my copy.

And if they "make an example" of one of us, my response will be to give out lots more copies to lots more people!  Again, they can kiss my ass.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 01:08:04 AM by JanessaVR »

Azrael

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #683 on: December 25, 2013, 02:22:59 AM »
Gleech, likeness of the game?  Games cannot be copyrighted (as I understand it and I believe this is settled law), only IP content.  All the necessary IP content is available in the client software that was given away publicly for free.

So a server that helps the client software to use it's assets to play a game, be it just running the character creator like ICON or fighting mobs, would not violate any of NCSoft's rights.  Running the "Statesman task force" is likely another story, as I don't believe the mission content is client-side.  But putting mobs of characters on the streets of Paragon doesn't have to be more than sending codes to the client.

Of course they could sue anyone running a server -- you can sue anyone for anything.  The only protection is that it exposes you to counter-suit, and if you don't have a solid basis for action the court is likely to do nasty things to you.


Spot on.   Look at all the PAC Man and Space Invader clones.  The game industry is founded on clones.  You can't copyright an idea only your version of the IP.

They gave away the client.  All the key assets are in it.  Maps.  Npcs.  Mov files.  Lighting.  Mob spawn points.  Dev tool access.  Character creator.  I payed for this client x3 hard copies of the game.  (Yes...). And I payed near a thousand pound in subs.

As a consumer, I feel morally entitled to a version of the game I can run as a stand alone on my hard drive.  Law?  The law is an ass in a world where corporations are abusing copyright legacy rights and pushing the consumer around.  Morgs where your wallet is held to ransom and you're left with nothing at the end of it. 

The IP assets are on my hard drive because I bought them.  They then proceeded to give the client away for 'free.'

The computer industry is littered with reverse engineered projects.  The PC industries pervasive reach was built on it!  As such, you can only copyright your implementation of an idea.  Not the idea.  Ergo: reverse engineered code that procedurally activates mobs on the maps seems reasonable to me.  As long as you don't use the original code.  And you can't copyright servers.  All morgs use them.  Just...maybe your version of it.  So.  Don't use NC soft 's code.

All the server is doing is activating ip you bought or were given for free.  It's making calls to assets you have installed.  It's playing the middle man.  All you need is a piece of software you can install that allows you to run local, LAN or peer to peer.

If you have the AE mission creator..?

You don't need the mission IP or TFs.  The community can create their own missions.  And a procedural call will bring the streets to life.  All the markers are there in the dev mode.

If such a reverse engineered server emulator went viral...how do you stop it..?

It's not like we'd be profiting from it or using their code or ip in the emulated server.  Only the ip assets we have bought or been given for local use as a minimum.

I think that's fair.

Azrael.

Azrael

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #684 on: December 25, 2013, 02:32:44 AM »
And if the game was unprofitable then why prosecute..?  Sure, they could.  But it's another publicity nightmare for a tenacious community who feel moral outrage and the 1st real test of a community who aren't going quietly.  Publishing is your copyright.  It's their ip.  But it's now just an old game.  We wouldn't be distributing their ip.

Only using our local client ip they gave us.  But none of their ip in distribution....or in reverse engineering local usage.

That doesn't stop them being an ass about it.  But I don't think they have a case.

Azrael.

Azrael

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #685 on: December 25, 2013, 02:35:09 AM »
If you have the Ae activated at the local level you could play missions you make peer to peer.  I'd class that fair use.

Azrael.

Azrael

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #686 on: December 25, 2013, 02:36:00 AM »
As they say, "do not go gently into the night..."

Azrael.

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #687 on: December 25, 2013, 02:41:06 AM »
I work in IT.  Theoretically speaking, if I end up with one, I dare them to try to find it.  I can guarantee they'll spend way more time than they would want to just trying.  I'll take my chances - especially if the source code is released as well and I can change file names, checksums, signatures, etc.  They'll go nuts trying to tear the whole internet apart and never come close to stumbling across my copy.

And if they "make an example" of one of us, my response will be to give out lots more copies to lots more people!  Again, they can kiss my ass.

*nods.  Nice to see someone get passionate about it.

If it is released privately and goes viral....how do they stop that..?  If I have a program that allows me to play the game I payed for at the local level...I don't see the problem.

Azrael.

Azrael

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #688 on: December 25, 2013, 02:47:56 AM »
I have the right to store the ip I paid for...but not the right to play it..?

Azrael.

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Azrael

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #690 on: December 25, 2013, 04:09:34 AM »
I don't always have time to post, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis I do read everything in this and related threads. So I'll summarize and cover a few things at once.

  • I don't care if NCSoft knows about Icon. This is a public board, and I fully expect them to know about it if they're paying even the slightest bit of attention. That's fine -- it uses assets that everybody already has -- assets that they abandoned on everybody's computer after being freely available for download to ANYONE for years. Legally it should be in the clear. The source code is even provided so they can verify that it doesn't use any copyrighted IP other than mine.

    It's also a good litmus test to see how they react. If they want to make a deal out of it, it will result in nothing but bad press for them and not really impact the program's availability much since it's already out there. If they are foolish enough to try to pursue real legal action beyond idle threats, I have faith that there are enough law-savvy people in this community to find a way to make them regret it. Best case scenario: by way of a judgement that sets precedent unfavorable to them in what is currently a fuzzy area.

  • There will be an Icon 1.8 at some point. I haven't done much active development on it due to other things on my plate, but I have a list of features I want to try to implement. Probably nothing as 'knock-your-socks-off' as previous versions, but more refinements and nice features.

  • Icon is not, and never will be, a full game. There are other projects working on that independently. The purpose of Icon is first to be the "offline character creator" that so many have clamored for, but also to offer tools that are useful for content development, whether it be for demo editors, screenshots, machinima, or even testing client mods locally.

    That said, Icon is intended to be a call to the community to not give up. There are a lot of very smart people working on various reverse engineering projects, and Icon is here to show a small bit of what we're capable of, so that people realize that there will be private servers at some point. Now many of those servers will very likely be, well... private, but that's a discussion for a different thread (and there are several on these boards, so please discuss them there rather than in the Icon thread).

  • A corollary to the previous, Icon is not directly related to any server-based projects (which includes single-player servers that run on the same PC as the client). It uses a completely different method that, as I discussed when I first started working on it, isn't really useful in that context. In other words, time spent working on Icon is time spent not working on what everybody really wants.

    It also didn't take 6 months to get people running around Atlas Park -- that took about a week from initial conception of the idea to implementation. While Icon does benefit from other reverse engineering work done in the meantime, playing around with the client doesn't contribute much back to them.

  • To all the people who have sent me PMs, I haven't had a chance to get back to most of them, but rest assured that I have read them. The thanks are very much appreciated, and it's great to see people's day brightened just a little bit. For people wanting to help, I'll point again at the SEGS project which is in need of developers. Not providing a link as I don't want them on the wrong end of the spotlight, but they're not too hard to find if you're serious about it.


Authoritative post.

Azrael.

Azrael

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #691 on: December 25, 2013, 04:20:50 AM »
Quote from: TonyV on July 12, 2013, 06:22:05 am
Icon is a separate effort from the efforts to restore a complete game, but I think it was an important demonstration that Codewalker is intimately familiar with how the client works.  From that, I'm hoping that people imply that when we say that we have the APIs mapped out that it used to communicate with the server, while Icon isn't definitive proof of that statement, we're not just making stuff up.

Not that I'm accusing you of accusing us of making stuff up, but others have implied that recreating the server is beyond our capability.  While Icon isn't definitive proof that we'll be able to, I'm hoping that it's evidence of what we are capable of, and by extension, that it will give people who may be thinking "I don't know, it's been almost seven and a half months and they still haven't finished bringing the game back yet" a bit more faith in our efforts.  Aside from the fun of playing around with it and giving people access to commands that only developers had access to, it's intended to be a morale booster and a cool toy to play around with until we have something even cooler to show off.

Room for optimism in those words...

Nearly 13 months and counting.  I can only presume that APIs are mapped out and proof of concept procedural mob generation on a map with combat as proof of pudding...

In the time leading up to closure of coh I can only presume some clever people looked at server code protocols to be confident of replicating that functionality....  Unless someone put the code on a pen drive... :o when clearing their desks...

Have other mmos been reverse engineered and if so how long did it take?  And we're these mmos as popular as coh..?

Azrael.

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #692 on: December 25, 2013, 03:06:25 PM »
Azrael, I played CoX since Issue 2 beta (my son actually got me into this game) and haven't looked back.  Can't find anything out there to equal or better CoX's gameplay or community.  I regularly follow this board and the S.E.G.S. board (nemerle).  I don't have any programming skills, but I do know how to play test.  I was playing around with Icon last night, jumping from map to map when I thought, man, it would be really cool to be able to fight mobs and such.

Needless to say, for me, I will back any effort to get my game back.  NCStupid can go to Hell as far as I am concerned.  My last $15 monthly CoX sub was the last red cent they will ever get from me.

Please excuse my ramblings.  :P
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 04:53:06 PM by TDGeorge »
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!  Infinity Server...

Gleech

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #693 on: December 25, 2013, 05:03:13 PM »
NCLimp can sit on a mountain of gold for all I care - and they can then proceed to kiss my ---.  We'll do what we want with CoH at this point - watching them try to play "whack-a-mole" with a thousand private servers will be the funniest thing I've seen in decades.
Pretty much this is what I'm sayin'. xP Glad someone agrees.
Gleech I feel I must point out that you left out the part about how according to EA Zynga "poached three high-level execs from EA who had internal knowledge of The Sims Social for the specific goal of ripping it off."

But you're also forgetting the charges that were issued. Technically NCSoft could say we had the specific goal of "ripping them off". Any second we play CoH free is a dollar lost.
I have the right to store the ip I paid for...but not the right to play it..?

Azrael.
Okay honestly: You paid for the services, not the rights to the game. You pay to play CoH because you're paying for the services done to play the game (creation, upkeep, etc). MMO subs are not stocks, you don't own a part of the MMO.

You don't need the mission IP or TFs.  The community can create their own missions.  And a procedural call will bring the streets to life.  All the markers are there in the dev mode.

Because people are going to wanna play someone's custom made TF over the real TFs? AE can only work so well without proper updates. CoH devs didn't give us the full Dev tools, I think you're forgetting that. They gave us a taste of it. A small portion. It's not good enough to just use that to remake all the missions. Plus, as said about art assets, it's literally 10+ years of content you plan to remake. It's going to take a long time to remake all that.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 07:28:32 PM by Gleech »

Shidan

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #694 on: December 25, 2013, 08:03:15 PM »
My point is they used internal knowledge of The Sims Social not that they were "Ripping it off". We have no such knowledge, to my knowledge anyway.

And actually any second we play CoH free is the exact same amount of money they were already getting for it since they closed it down.

Gleech

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #695 on: December 25, 2013, 09:57:09 PM »
And actually any second we play CoH free is the exact same amount of money they were already getting for it since they closed it down.
True, but can you reason with them? No. Try asking them nicely not to sue. Look how that worked out with getting CoH back. They hold the rights to CoH and that's final. We have no rights to the game. No matter how much you paid previously, they have the final say-so in the game. They provided and ended a service legally. The players taking and remaking their service means they aren't profiting from their original work.

People will sue over the stupidest things, anyway. I heard of lawsuits where a criminal broke into a house, tripped, got injured, sued the people, and won. Doesn't make any sense, but it happened. NCSoft could do so much more.

The debate is whether NCSoft could sue or not. And yes, they could, over anything we do to their game. They still hold the rights to it, whether the game is online or not.

Ohioknight

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #696 on: December 26, 2013, 01:42:15 AM »

The debate is whether NCSoft could sue or not. And yes, they could, over anything we do to their game. They still hold the rights to it, whether the game is online or not.

Gleech, of course they could sue.  They could sue YOU for making the above comment.  They have exactly as much legal basis to sue you for making the above comment as they would have to sue someone making software that activated the COX client software that they distributed.
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Drauger9

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #697 on: December 26, 2013, 02:50:36 AM »
Hmm.. seems this has moved to somewhat of a debate. LOL!

I agree with Gleech, if someone simply wrote a program where you could play City of Heroes as is. Then they could very well sue. City of Heroes is still their game no matter how much money you pumped into it. If it wasn't this would be a non-issue and we'd all still be playing right now, I'd assume. I think the question really should be, how far could someone go before they actually would sue?

Me personally I couldn't afford to find out. LOL! As has been said before. If anyone is working on a super secret project. Let's hope they do it wisely to were if NCSoft  did want to sue. They would decide it wasn't worth the time, money or resources to go forward with a law suit.

We'll have to wait and see I guess.

JaguarX

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #698 on: December 26, 2013, 04:24:45 AM »
Hmm.. seems this has moved to somewhat of a debate. LOL!

I agree with Gleech, if someone simply wrote a program where you could play City of Heroes as is. Then they could very well sue. City of Heroes is still their game no matter how much money you pumped into it. If it wasn't this would be a non-issue and we'd all still be playing right now, I'd assume. I think the question really should be, how far could someone go before they actually would sue?

Me personally I couldn't afford to find out. LOL! As has been said before. If anyone is working on a super secret project. Let's hope they do it wisely to were if NCSoft  did want to sue. They would decide it wasn't worth the time, money or resources to go forward with a law suit.




Indeed.

Sometimes the easiest way with anything is simply knowing where the lines are. The easiest way to get caught up is simply being caught unprepared. An unprepared thing or person can lose, in this case a lawsuit, simply because they didn't know where the lines are and since they didn't know where the lines are, cant even build a good defense.

In court, morally right, charity, what is good or bad PR, what gamers want, what corporations want, usually all go out the window and come down to what the law says.

But a prepared person know where the lines are and can even avoid usually even getting so much of a letter. But being prepared do not involve simply ignoring or pretending the lines and risks don't exist even on what is good for the public or moral grounds. The lines lies where the law lies.
Even simple distribution may back fire because don't forget all the copyright stuff, which is a large part of the rights of the copyright holder. Distribution. Now if one made something that don't use any copyright/trademarks/IP stuff and simply say, just make use of what is already on the user computer, then they should be ok. Nothing wrong with distributing programs to make use of other programs on the computer. But distributing the total package that is protected under copyright/ip/trademark, then that may be different story and simply because they cant shut down every single place where it distributed doesn't mean in the court that the judge will simply go, "Oh well, I guess that make it ok." usually it looks fishy and looks like intent was to do just that and may as well be who ever they grab ahold of that distributed whether original or not, liable for the distribution that they did.  Not to mention add more ammo that many game makers are trying to push through with stricter IP protection and distribution controls regardless if one company wins or lose the lawsuit.

But remember the key is to simply know where the lines are. The most successful people that get away with stuff always know what they can get away with and that usually entails knowing the law, even if they plan on breaking it. Those that usually get caught in nonsense and lose when they should have won a cake walk, usually are the ones that downplay the risk, or think judgment will automatically go in their favor and or no one will do anything.  Because anything released to the public on the internet usually don't stay secret for long. Someone usually squeals, either accidentally or get carried away bragging about how they got away with it. It all boils down to how it's done. Done properly there is nothing to worry about. Done side ways, there might be some worry but at least know what can happen and be ready and take precautions. AKA don't make it easy for them. Make them argue among themselves whether it's worth it or not or do they have a case or not. Don't make it a dead simple choice for them that they do have a case. And it's not only the copyright holder that is the worry. Sometimes thing happen by simply someone reporting to the Copyright office and the ball end up getting the ball rolling there and yes, NCSOFT do have stuff registered with the US copyright office. And last thing the copyright office needs or want is to too like they condone copyright infringement. But even if and after it get released and it's done quietly and discreetly or balancing the line, they may not bother. But there is a department that strictly deal with internet stuff. While they don't monitor every single thing, they do look at stuff that comes across their desk. 

CoyoteSeven

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #699 on: December 26, 2013, 05:58:15 AM »
This is what happens when gamers and coders start arguing about legal matters. Just a wee bit outside their focus, neh? What we really need are some lawyers to set the record straight.