Ko's Twitter 'Rant' About #COH, #SaveCOH, and What the Community is Becoming...

[Twisted Toon]

NCsoft made me feel this way and I'll damn well let others know just exactly how I'm feeling about their selfish and narrow minded behavior.

No one made you feel this way. You choose to feel this way.
I am angry at what NCSoft did. I hold them entirely responsible for the premature closing of a successful game and company.
Yet, I do not wish them to fail. I just wish for them to change their business practices. In short, I wish for this.

I'm just old, tired and grumpy ..... and I want my game back.

You're not the only one who's old, tired, grumpy and wants their game back. Just don't be a bitter grumpy tired old man in the process. That's all I'm saying.

[JaguarX]

First off I would like to start by apologizing, I just lost my temper.  I very much so respect all of you and your opinion and I didn't mean to lash out.  But I have lost count of the amount of times I, my friends, or my family has been screwed royally by people not taking into consideration the chain of events that take place.  I once faced 15 years in prison for a crime I never did, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person.  Simply guilt by association and it took a $20,000 lawyer and a year and half in a court just to have them say "Even though we knew you were innocent you were just someone caught on the crossfire"  I just don' want a bunch of people that had nothing to do with this to be caught in our cross fire.

Cobra man I don't think you are an a-hole or a douche I really don't, but its easy for good intentions to slip into those areas.
Very fair point Tony V. That is why I wish for those companies to go their own direction or have at the very least a buyout like Arenanet does.  I don't want those companies to under go hardships and I want them as far away from NCSoft as possible, not shutdown or to fail for their associations I just want people to take that approach instead of "They work with NCSoft let them burn."
Again, fair point. I can see how it would come off that way.  I still have hope for CoH, I still want to fight and I really do think NCSoft should acknowledge their mistakes and learn from it.  I would love game companies to stop pushing around their customers as well.  I just want to make sure we don't become the monsters we are fighting, and I don't want us to stoop to their level.

I would like to see NCSoft pay for what they have done, I would.  But I just cant help but think of all the people who would be getting hurt so much more then the people who actually were behind the CoH shutdown.  I am thinking of the mail room people, the receptionist, the interns etc etc.

Like you said TonyV

I hope our efforts here do change the way publishers think they can treat people.  I just don't want people being caught in the crossfire who literally didn't do anything but have a bad employer.

If we are going to be the community that tries and change the way publishers and gaming companies act.  Then we need to lead by example.
  That would be awesome it would, I am just looking for a way that doesn't cost a bunch of people that had nothing to do with the closure losing their jobs is all.  Best case scenario both would happen.

To sum it up, if NCSoft can fail and not bring down a bunch of people who are just trying to make a living and get through the day, then that is great.  I just really want people to consider how many people may be caught in the crossfire of that happening.  How many people would get laid off to try and save the company for bankruptcy.  Things like that.  Now of course the world doesn't ever work out the way you want but I feel the best possible outcome of all of this is:CoH IP is released,  Gaming companies learn they can't treat their customers/fans this way, and also that there isn't a bunch of collateral damage.   I am just worried we will become zealots hell-bent on destroying NCSoft more then we are trying to rescue CoH and change the standard for companies.

Again sorry for my language, and my attitude but to quote Tony again even though this is directed to everyone that read my other post.
I understand exactly where everyone is coming from I am angry at NCSoft too, but I also understand how easy it is to be royally screwed by simply just not knowing it may be a chain reaction.   I don't care if people are mad at NCSoft I really don't, I just care that people are mad at people who had nothing to do with it, I feel our passion and anger should be aimed in the right direction.

For the mods:  I should of watched my language, sorry.  But maybe this will help your filter system when I was using the bold command it somehow didn't censor the word.

NCSoft executives are a bunch of greedy jerks, I know this.  People are angry I know this too, I am angry as well and want my game back.  But we can't stoop down to their level.  I am more concerned about the re-birth of City of Heroes, then I am the destruction of NCSoft.  There is a way to show companies they can't act this way without all the fire and brimstone.

Unrelated:   A fair question so I feel you deserve an answer.

I don't tell people things like that.  If I don't like a restaurant I just won't eat there, I will leave the decision up to other people if they want to eat there or not.  I would also take it up with the manager and tell him where I think he could improve, now we tried this with NCSoft and it didn't work.  More importantly though that restaurant would close because of its poor service and food, the same way eventually NCsoft will close because of their poor service.  However if I were to say that, of course I wouldn't secretly mean that.  That is my whole point.  Of course people don't want these people to fail I am not accusing anyone of that.  I am saying the chain reaction of that restaurant closing would be the janitor out of a job, no one even considered the janitor that is what bothered me so much.  It seems no one is considering these worker bees that had nothing to do with it.  And if I knew my actions put that janitor out on his behind because I forgot to consider him, I would feel terrible.

Long post sorry.  TonyV just to let you know while I used your quotes this post was directed to everyone I may have insulted or been rude too.  I just felt that replying to your post alone was able to sum up how I actually felt now that I have cooled down.

I see what you are saying which remidns of this quote.


"why should we trade 1 dictator 3,000 miles away for 300 dictators 1 mile away?"

What I get from that is what is the point of taking down one entity that is no good if only the ones that aim to take them down is just going to take their place and do the same thing they are angry at the original entity for in the first place? That doesnt change the status quo. That is just plain revenge. Only thing that adds is us vs them, whith us or you're wit hthem mentality, and in the end both parties end up just as dirty all the same.

If we want to show that game custoemrs cant treat customers this way, the best way to change it is to show how they should treat customers and people. Going all fire hell brimstone wanting to bring destruction upon the "enemy" is not going to attain that goal. In fact it's exactly what they just did to us. If it was wrong for them to do it to us, then why would it be right to want to do it to them? The only difference was is that they had the power to do it.

Sometimes collateral damage happens, yes. Sometimes it's envitable, yes. But when it's not and dont have to happen, then why even wish it so to happen. We going down a good path, we'll build our own game, and that more than anything is our time to show how to treat customers. Want the IP back, we have to make them an offer they cant refuse. Or be a big enough investor that if ya withdrew your finance it will make them think twice. As customers, they written us off long ago. They have no more investment with us, but many here are still invested emotionally into NCSoft.

But in the end, I cant stop nor wish to stop anyone from going site to site, wishing destruction upon NCSoft and ect, but all I ask is to think long and hard of what is the true goal that you are trying to obtain and if you are just adding fire with fire or trying to accomplish something greater?
If someone shot me in the leg, hell yeah I'd be pissed and my primitive side would think firt to do is go shoot them, but in the end what does that solve besides justifying the original action that it's right to shoot someone when ya angry. If I felt wrong for being shot, then why would it be right to turn around and shoot them? Maybe that person doesnt know the right thing or know how to be treated right thus dont know how to treat others. And shooting them in the leg in return wont teach them nor change anything besides that next time he should shoot me in the head.

Since this is post number 666, I guess I might as well shre this little tidbit. About four score and seven years ago (not really but it felt that long ago), some one asked, "Why did you join the SaveCOH movement? You already moved on to another game over a year ago, games are just a mere form of entertainment for you, and you didnt speak much to people in the game so why join?" My repy was that "this is more than about me or you, it's about something bigger. Yeah, I was already gone. Yeah it's another game closed, but still, in my heart, I cant stand for people to get jerked around whether I knew them or not. It meant something to them and they want to do something about it and thus I'm goign to try and help them do something about it. To make a change. In the end nothing may change but none cant say that I nor any of them didnt try or speak up." One friend thought I went bat pancake for joining up with a bunch of cult members being led around like sheep by a zealot and that is what she said but I said, someone has to take a stand or else who or what is next? Today it's a game, next someone's home, the next mandatory purchases from a corporation with a gov. in their pocket. Enough is enough and it's about time a group of people finally stood up and said they are not goign to take this crap anymore. Entities that throw around millions and billions of cash think because they are rich they can treat people anyway they want to with no one even questioning it or just groaning and going along quietly after a few days. They are so blatant that many corporations dont even bother pretending to care anymore. In reality we hold the power it's just that people got so used to it being so pancaked that they dont say anything. This is a chance ot say no more. We will not go quietly into the night. They can take their property but we will just build our own. They may make money elsewhere but they will not get none of ours. And this time it's not regular empty threats but it's about actions to show we are people that should be treated and viewed with respect.

At the same time we must not stoop to their level or all of this is for nothing and a waste. Another group of gamers that is full of hate that no respectful business would want to talk or listen to and other companies looking "man, I'm glad they are not our customers. Lets make sure we keep them out of our target group. We dont want to be that. We want to be a group of customers that are viewed as a group that a corporation was idiotic to get rid of.

[Sajaana]

If the shoe were on the other foot, they wouldn't think twice about hurting us all to get what they want.  In fact, that's exactly what they did: what they wanted, without even caring about who was hurt in the process.

The business made us this way: it is a savage, cruel, outright exploitive business that is just one step above drugs, prostitution or gambling in terms of its legitimacy.  And if we didn't learn about this before, we sure learned about it now.

We have nothing now...not even our own software we have and paid for on our computers.  And people expect us to not hold ill will?  As if Carbine and Arenanet are innocent?

Let me say this now: Carbine and Arenanet are not innocent.  This isn't because of their relationship with NCsoft.  It's because they, NCsoft, SOE, Funcom--and all the others--have bought into the same mentality that it's somehow okay to get good people hooked onto good things, only to take away these good things whenever it suits the providers.

Cocktail waitresses and hotel staff work in casinos.  They may be innocent, but it doesn't change the fact that their paychecks are funded on broken dreams.

[JaguarX]

Cocktail waitresses and hotel staff work in casinos.  They may be innocent, but it doesn't change the fact that their paychecks are funded on broken dreams.

this is true.

But if we hold that standard to every business, entity, job then most people here would be out of work and probably homeless due to the way that even real estate market works. Thus in the end, are any of us really innocent? Gov. workers, work for the largest gang in the world and the oens that run it are crooked asa barrel of snakes yet, firemen, the military, police, health department, and in some cities, even the water and electric are ran by the gov. Private businesses same deal, casinos, hospitals-highway robbery and basically chosing who lives and who dies. Insurance companies, any business that sales stuff, mechanics, resturants, real estate agents, even charities. All broken and funded by broken dreams.

That is how profits are made.

[Sajaana]

this is true.

But if we hold that standard to every business, entity, job then most people here would be out of work and probably homeless due to the way that even real estate market works.

I hear all the time that MMOs and online culture are harbingers of the future.  Many people say that they symbolize a more harmonious future.  But I believe we have seen the dark side of that future in what we've seen in the CoH closure.

And, in fact, I'd have to agree with you that many of our institutions and industries are becoming more corrupt.  But I think that the whole issue behind the MMO industry is a special sort of corruption; a special sort of exploitation pioneered by only a few other industries, most of which are on the fringes of acceptability (pornography, gambling, gt rich quick schemes, prostitution, drugs).

It doesn't sell you things; it sells you illusions of things.  The things we do, the things we buy, the things we invest care and concern in seem real, they feel real.  The industry takes great pains to ensure that they are perceived by people like us that they are real.  That is...of course...until it is in their interests to dispell the illusions, leaving us all sad, confused, angry and resentful.

I believe this industry embodies a special kind of corruption: taking advantage of innocent and trusting people, like the good people I met here on this site, through shrewd public relations and powerful imagery. I believe it ought to be exposed as such, so that others learn the lessons we had to learn.

[JaguarX]

I hear all the time that MMOs and online culture are harbingers of the future.  Many people say that they symbolize a more harmonious future.  But I believe we have seen the dark side of that future in what we've seen in the CoH closure.

And, in fact, I'd have to agree with you that many of our institutions and industries are becoming more corrupt.  But I think that the whole issue behind the MMO industry is a special sort of corruption; a special sort of exploitation pioneered by only a few other industries, most of which are on the fringes of acceptability (pornography, gambling, gt rich quick schemes, prostitution, drugs).

It doesn't sell you things; it sells you illusions of things.  The things we do, the things we buy, the things we invest care and concern in seem real, they feel real.  The industry takes great pains to ensure that they are perceived by people like us that they are real.  That is...of course...until it is in their interests to dispell the illusions, leaving us all sad, confused, angry and resentful.

I believe this industry embodies a special kind of corruption: taking advantage of innocent and trusting people, like the good people I met here on this site, through shrewd public relations and powerful imagery. I believe it ought to be exposed as such, so that others learn the lessons we had to learn.

yep.

Except that message and the lesson we learned is usually not accepted with open arms.

Even prior to the closing there were talk about the possiblity that NCSoft could close the game down at any moment. Lets just say, those people and their message was not accepted at kindly even though they spoke the truth, a truth that is very real and obvious right now.

Even me, I understood what they was saying and in the back of my head I knew it wasa possiblity thus why I read and understood their EULA. Many people called me paranoid for my habit of reading stuff like that, but as we see  now, many those that didnt was blind sided. Others that didnt think it was a possibility was also blind sided.

So thus the question is that did game companies actually sell illusions or was it that people refused to see the reality of that illusion even when they denied the truth when it was presented to them. Of course now it's apparent and unfortunately, it's sad how cruel the lesson is. What I'm getting at is even if we get the lesson we learned now ad tried to teach others, it is possibility they are still as blind and caught up in the illusion as many here was even when the truth is presented to them. Although I think some people was truely deceived and first MMO and such but others, some I know, they chose to remain blind to the facts even when it was presented to them and chose to remain in the veil of the illusion.

Thus I dont believe it's all the sellers fault. They presented a product, but overall t's up to the person to decide to partake or not. Just as it's up to the person to know what are the remifications of partaking especially if someone who has been there is tellign them to becareful and the risk that lies ahead. If they choose to continue on blind, who fault is that? The person that selling? The person that told them the truth they chose to ignore? Or the person for willingly remaining blind? I think in this case none is totally innocent but none is totally at fault. Each must take their share of responsibility including and especially personal responsibility for their own choices and actions.

Or more simply put who is at fault? the drug dealer or the person choosing to buy the drugs? Neither one would exist without the other.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I see what you are saying which remidns of this quote.


"why should we trade 1 dictator 3,000 miles away for 300 dictators 1 mile away?"

What I get from that is what is the point of taking down one entity that is no good if only the ones that aim to take them down is just going to take their place and do the same thing they are angry at the original entity for in the first place? That doesnt change the status quo. That is just plain revenge. Only thing that adds is us vs them, whith us or you're wit hthem mentality, and in the end both parties end up just as dirty all the same.

If we want to show that game custoemrs cant treat customers this way, the best way to change it is to show how they should treat customers and people. Going all fire hell brimstone wanting to bring destruction upon the "enemy" is not going to attain that goal. In fact it's exactly what they just did to us. If it was wrong for them to do it to us, then why would it be right to want to do it to them? The only difference was is that they had the power to do it.

Sometimes collateral damage happens, yes. Sometimes it's envitable, yes. But when it's not and dont have to happen, then why even wish it so to happen. We going down a good path, we'll build our own game, and that more than anything is our time to show how to treat customers. Want the IP back, we have to make them an offer they cant refuse. Or be a big enough investor that if ya withdrew your finance it will make them think twice. As customers, they written us off long ago. They have no more investment with us, but many here are still invested emotionally into NCSoft.

But in the end, I cant stop nor wish to stop anyone from going site to site, wishing destruction upon NCSoft and ect, but all I ask is to think long and hard of what is the true goal that you are trying to obtain and if you are just adding fire with fire or trying to accomplish something greater?
If someone shot me in the leg, hell yeah I'd be pissed and my primitive side would think firt to do is go shoot them, but in the end what does that solve besides justifying the original action that it's right to shoot someone when ya angry. If I felt wrong for being shot, then why would it be right to turn around and shoot them? Maybe that person doesnt know the right thing or know how to be treated right thus dont know how to treat others. And shooting them in the leg in return wont teach them nor change anything besides that next time he should shoot me in the head.

Since this is post number 666, I guess I might as well shre this little tidbit. About four score and seven years ago (not really but it felt that long ago), some one asked, "Why did you join the SaveCOH movement? You already moved on to another game over a year ago, games are just a mere form of entertainment for you, and you didnt speak much to people in the game so why join?" My repy was that "this is more than about me or you, it's about something bigger. Yeah, I was already gone. Yeah it's another game closed, but still, in my heart, I cant stand for people to get jerked around whether I knew them or not. It meant something to them and they want to do something about it and thus I'm goign to try and help them do something about it. To make a change. In the end nothing may change but none cant say that I nor any of them didnt try or speak up." One friend thought I went bat pancake for joining up with a bunch of cult members being led around like sheep by a zealot and that is what she said but I said, someone has to take a stand or else who or what is next? Today it's a game, next someone's home, the next mandatory purchases from a corporation with a gov. in their pocket. Enough is enough and it's about time a group of people finally stood up and said they are not goign to take this crap anymore. Entities that throw around millions and billions of cash think because they are rich they can treat people anyway they want to with no one even questioning it or just groaning and going along quietly after a few days. They are so blatant that many corporations dont even bother pretending to care anymore. In reality we hold the power it's just that people got so used to it being so pancaked that they dont say anything. This is a chance ot say no more. We will not go quietly into the night. They can take their property but we will just build our own. They may make money elsewhere but they will not get none of ours. And this time it's not regular empty threats but it's about actions to show we are people that should be treated and viewed with respect.

At the same time we must not stoop to their level or all of this is for nothing and a waste. Another group of gamers that is full of hate that no respectful business would want to talk or listen to and other companies looking "man, I'm glad they are not our customers. Lets make sure we keep them out of our target group. We dont want to be that. We want to be a group of customers that are viewed as a group that a corporation was idiotic to get rid of.

Yep. :)

Many people say that they symbolize a more harmonious future.  But I believe we have seen the dark side of that future in what we've seen in the CoH closure.

I agree completely, I hate to sound corny but that is why we can't become part of it.  We can't go to the dark-side to defeat the dark-side (God that sounded even corny then I thought it would)

But like Michelle said earlier:

... I suppose I should be grateful that at least we're turning on one another in the privacy of our own forums instead of out in public.

Oh Michelle, you are so right.  I feel foolish for contributing to this argument in the first place.  We are here to work together.

[JaguarX]

But like Michelle said earlier:
Oh Michelle, you are so right.  I feel foolish for contributing to this argument in the first place.  We are here to work together.

Actually I think it's going civil. Bottled up frustrations are no good either. Sometimes silence is more damaging to a cause than someone with a radical view. People start getting hesistant to disagree to anything and that leads to valuable ideas and opportunities lost not to mention a bad idea coming to fruit. While it may not be a big deal of what people think on the outside yet, I have a gut feeling (or maybe it's just the Burrito) that it will become more important as progress is made.

You know, I dont type to convince. Because most of the time the mind is already made up. They are just trying to understand their decision or get feedback and see how it fit in with normality. I just type so that even if one person stops and even think about what I said for 0.5 secs, then I have accomplished something. Maybe they still will disregard, maybe they will change their mind, or maybe they wont change their mind do it anyways, might find out what I said was true and realize I was right or false and think I was a total idiot but either way they may tell someone else and my words may be an example of how to do it or how not to do it.  Either way my words have not gone to waste.

But one thing is for certain is that nothing is certain. At one point in time it was certain that Pluto was a planet...now not anymore

[Twisted Toon]

Let me say this now: Carbine and Arenanet are not innocent.  This isn't because of their relationship with NCsoft.  It's because they, NCsoft, SOE, Funcom--and all the others--have bought into the same mentality that it's somehow okay to get good people hooked onto good things, only to take away these good things whenever it suits the providers.

Using your examples there, Paragon Studios was corrupt as well. So, NCSoft did the world a favor by getting rid of a corrupt entity. Correct?
Different companies will treat their customers differently depending on the people making the decisions in those companies.
No two companies are the same.

In fact, I have seen how two separate pizza restaurants treat their customers from the inside.
The first one I worked for, Vito's, was a very friendly place. They treated their customers with respect and made them feel welcome.
The second I worked for, Luigi's, was just the opposite. They wanted the customers in and out as fast as possible so they could rack up the sales quicker.
Unfortunately, they tended to irritate their customers (not to mention their employees) and the store I worked at closed down about a year after opening.

The only reason My employment at Vito's ended was because the owner's wife was getting burned out working 16 hours a day 7 days a week, and they closed that location.
She still helped her husband at their other location so they both could work fewer hours and days and actually have a life outside of work. I can't blame them for that.
Funny thing is, Luigi's was in the same location that Vito's used to be in. The customers that Luigi's drove away went to the other Vito's, because of the friendly service.

Just because NCSoft is a dick company, doesn't mean that Arenanet or Carbine are dick companies as well. It certainly didn't mean that Paragon Studios was a dick company.

yep.

Except that message and the lesson we learned is usually not accepted with open arms.

Even prior to the closing there were talk about the possiblity that NCSoft could close the game down at any moment. Lets just say, those people and their message was not accepted at kindly even though they spoke the truth, a truth that is very real and obvious right now.

Even me, I understood what they was saying and in the back of my head I knew it wasa possiblity thus why I read and understood their EULA. Many people called me paranoid for my habit of reading stuff like that, but as we see  now, many those that didnt was blind sided. Others that didnt think it was a possibility was also blind sided.

So thus the question is that did game companies actually sell illusions or was it that people refused to see the reality of that illusion even when they denied the truth when it was presented to them. Of course now it's apparent and unfortunately, it's sad how cruel the lesson is. What I'm getting at is even if we get the lesson we learned now ad tried to teach others, it is possibility they are still as blind and caught up in the illusion as many here was even when the truth is presented to them. Although I think some people was truely deceived and first MMO and such but others, some I know, they chose to remain blind to the facts even when it was presented to them and chose to remain in the veil of the illusion.

Thus I dont believe it's all the sellers fault. They presented a product, but overall t's up to the person to decide to partake or not. Just as it's up to the person to know what are the remifications of partaking especially if someone who has been there is tellign them to becareful and the risk that lies ahead. If they choose to continue on blind, who fault is that? The person that selling? The person that told them the truth they chose to ignore? Or the person for willingly remaining blind? I think in this case none is totally innocent but none is totally at fault. Each must take their share of responsibility including and especially personal responsibility for their own choices and actions.

Or more simply put who is at fault? the drug dealer or the person choosing to buy the drugs? Neither one would exist without the other.

My personal opinion is that people refused (or neglected) to see the reality behind the illusion. It happens a lot, unfortunately. My beef with NCSoft is not that they closed the game down. It is in the manner in which they closed the game down, and the misinformation they attempted to give us (or not give us as the case my be) during the process. There were many alternatives they could have chosen that wouldn't have created the situation that we are in now. Many that would have benefited them and us alike. They, seemingly, chose the most heavy-handed approach they could find.

Which is why I keep saying, I would like for NCSoft to change their business practices to a more customer friendly method. They might find that they'd attract more customers with a friendlier approach.

[JaguarX]

My personal opinion is that people refused (or neglected) to see the reality behind the illusion. It happens a lot, unfortunately. My beef with NCSoft is not that they closed the game down. It is in the manner in which they closed the game down, and the misinformation they attempted to give us (or not give us as the case my be) during the process. There were many alternatives they could have chosen that wouldn't have created the situation that we are in now. Many that would have benefited them and us alike. They, seemingly, chose the most heavy-handed approach they could find.

Which is why I keep saying, I would like for NCSoft to change their business practices to a more customer friendly method. They might find that they'd attract more customers with a friendlier approach.

Bingo.

[Sajaana]

Thus I dont believe it's all the sellers fault. They presented a product, but overall t's up to the person to decide to partake or not. Just as it's up to the person to know what are the remifications of partaking especially if someone who has been there is tellign them to becareful and the risk that lies ahead. If they choose to continue on blind, who fault is that? The person that selling? The person that told them the truth they chose to ignore? Or the person for willingly remaining blind? I think in this case none is totally innocent but none is totally at fault. Each must take their share of responsibility including and especially personal responsibility for their own choices and actions.

I place no responsibility on the innocent.  And, indeed, we owe a lot of what made CoH great to the innocent.

People who are concerned about the EULA don't spend hundreds of hours building beautiful SG bases.  Why sacrifice so much time doing content that others can enjoy, if you go into the game under the assumption that it will be for nought?

And you don't spend Paragon Points on the virtual wedding dress if you don't have dreams of wearing it.

And you don't put so much time and effort into AE arcs, if you believe it can all be taken away before you are done.

And you don't spend countless hours--like Tony V and everyone at Titan--designing a wiki and tools, if you are constantly on guard that the game will disappear without notice.

See, I have a hard time understanding how, JaguarX, we can assign blame to the innocent for not believing that NCsoft would take their world away, simply because their EULAs gave NCsoft the right to take their world away.  If they truly did believe that, they wouldn't do any of the good things they did in CoH.

No, I don't blame the fans here...not even in part.  To do so implies that they ought to have played with a kind of skeptical cynicism that nothing matters; to play as if the only thing that matters is to get to maximum level and a perked out character ASAP, regardless of anything else.  Yet this isn't the kind of attitude that made the game great.  What made the game great was to build something meaningful, not to make use of the present by hook or crook.

We don't build something meaningful when we take "personal responsibility" for the clause in our EULA that says, more or less, "what you value is a lie."  We derrive our desire to build something meaningful when we suspend our disbelief, hope that the signs we see are signs we can trust, and take the time to build.

Hope springs eternal.  It's what makes us human.  And so, when we see things like updates on the horizon, big plans in store for the upcoming year, new powersets and so on--and we love what we do--it seems...rather obscene...to assign blame to them for feeling upset when all their hopes are dashed by a stroke of an executive's pen.

That's why I don't blame the players here.  We were innocent once.  Now, however, the business corrupted that innocence.

[JaguarX]

I place no responsibility on the innocent.  And, indeed, we owe a lot of what made CoH great to the innocent.

People who are concerned about the EULA don't spend hundreds of hours building beautiful SG bases.  Why sacrifice so much time doing content that others can enjoy, if you go into the game under the assumption that it will be for nought?

And you don't spend Paragon Points on the virtual wedding dress if you don't have dreams of wearing it.

And you don't put so much time and effort into AE arcs, if you believe it can all be taken away before you are done.

And you don't spend countless hours--like Tony V and everyone at Titan--designing a wiki and tools, if you are constantly on guard that the game will disappear without notice.

See, I have a hard time understanding how, JaguarX, we can assign blame to the innocent for not believing that NCsoft would take their world away, simply because their EULAs gave NCsoft the right to take their world away.  If they truly did believe that, they wouldn't do any of the good things they did in CoH.

No, I don't blame the fans here...not even in part.  To do so implies that they ought to have played with a kind of skeptical cynicism that nothing matters; to play as if the only thing that matters is to get to maximum level and a perked out character ASAP, regardless of anything else.  Yet this isn't the kind of attitude that made the game great.  What made the game great was to build something meaningful, not to make use of the present by hook or crook.

We don't build something meaningful when we take "personal responsibility" for the clause in our EULA that says, more or less, "what you value is a lie."  We derrive our desire to build something meaningful when we suspend our disbelief, hope that the signs we see are signs we can trust, and take the time to build.

Hope springs eternal.  It's what makes us human.  And so, when we see things like updates on the horizon, big plans in store for the upcoming year, new powersets and so on--and we love what we do--it seems...rather obscene...to assign blame to them for feeling upset when all their hopes are dashed by a stroke of an executive's pen.

That's why I don't blame the players here.  We were innocent once.  Now, however, the business corrupted that innocence.

I see and truely respect your viewpoint.

I built many bases my own and other peoples (some took more game time that day that actual playing some days that is all I did), I made AE arcs, even bought the wedding package, and took my time leveling toons, yet I knew it could just as well come to an end at any moment.  I played because I enjoyed what was there while it was there. It was fun. It's like I know good and well I'm going to die so in reality, nothing i have right now nor whatI write here matters. But then, why live? Why bother waking up each day? Why bother even spending money having money forming friendships traveling the world if it's all going to come to an end just the same if I did nothing and became a bum? I do it because I enjoy the ride. That doesnt mean I dwell on the end, no, but at the same time I'm by no means blind to the fact that any moment even as I'm writing I might buy the farm. I might be on my way to work tomorrow and get smashed by an out of control semi-truck. I might get my head blown off from a case of mistaken identity. Who knows. But yet, I still tell people I'll see them tomorrow, or I'm going to be there for their birthday, and plan on having seeing kids grow up and etc. But in reality at any moment it could be my last and thus that is my motivation to enjoy life as if it was my last just as I did in game. I played each day, created each thing, as if it was my last and had to be my master piece. While not applying specific to games, I think some people really dont miss things until it's gone. It's like that family member that they havent talked to in years until they find out that family is on the the death bed. Then they are at the bedside each night wishing they would have spent more time. After the death, they actually spend moretiem with people while some continue to do so for years others go back into routine within a few days until the next proverbial train hits them.

My personal view, I think people should be concerned about the EULA and what is in it but that is just me. It wasnt written just for the hell of it. There is a purpose and reason behind it. But that is just me and my methods there. Me if I read something in an EULA or equivalent from anything I'm about to give up time or money for and it looks fishy I walk. Everything from buying a car to downloading a video. But again I say, that is me. Many people dont bother reading stuff like that regardless of what it is. Hell, I know some people dont even read the terms and conditions of credit cards, loans, warrenties and etc and end up learning about it the hard way. When something goes sideways and they call up to complain only to get "well it's in the letter we sent with the card. It specifically states that if you are late more than five days the rates go up to 26% for that month with a $15 late fee". Now is it the credit card issuer's fault, the person didnt read the agreement? Maybe. Maybe the credit card issuer should have verbally explained it when the person was signing up for the card. It wouldnt have tooken longer than the other junk offers they made. Or is it the person that chose to ignore the letter and couldnt find time to read it?

I'm not assigning blame to anyone for feeling the way they do.

Maybe it's because I've been part of this world longer than many and lost my innocence long ago and knew from prior experience to read everything before agreeing to everythign and look before I leap and know the possible outcomes to anything I put time and money into.

Kind of remind me of this guy that bought this car. It was his first car, he was only about 19. Thus he financed this car. As far as he was concerned, he could afford this car because as he said "if he couldnt, why would the salesman sell it to me." I told him maybe he should get a cheaper car within his means, but his mind was made up. o once he got this car home, he put rims on it, speakers, took out the oem radio and put in a screen and screen in the head rest. Lo and behold, the payments became too much once it got down to insurance, taxes, and routine maintence. He fell behind two months and one day he came home and the car was gone. He called up, and by now he was pretty heated, and asked abotu the money he put into the car. They said, sure you can have the rims back, the radio back and the tv screens i nthe headrest but as long as you return the OEM stuff. He already sold the OEM stuff. Thus they kept the stuff he put into itand sold the car. AFter biting his losses and thinking this ordeal is behind him, a month later he gets a letter in the mail sayign he still owed them $5,000. He forgot to read the documents that is pretty standard in most car finance documents that states that even if the car is repoed, if the car is sold less at an auction for less than what is owed he will still be liable for the remainder of the balance. SO this kid ended up paying $5,000 extra for a car he no longer owned, lost thousands in upgrades, and lowered his ability to finance another car because he was "innocent" and didnt read the documents. Well what done is done, and he was no longer innocent after that. It took a, as an  old 1st SGT used to say, a life altering event to teach him that sometimes "innocence" is no excuse to ignoring the information that is provided. But that is not even important. The important thing is that he learned from it and didnt make that same mistake again. Because the second time it's not being innocent again, it's called being ignorant. Thus now that we know for sure even after ignoring the written things from the EULA and from statements of people who probably knew what could possibly happen,  we must be dilligent to not make the same mistake and continue to be blind to what can happen. Because what can happen can turn into will happen into what has happened.

[Knightslayer]

I always view studios like ANet and Carbine as artists, chasing their dreams - something that publishers can turn into a reality for them.
And just like artists in other industries, they can get exploited by a ruthless publisher if they don't include a clever clause and legal measures that can provide them with an out.
If there's anything that's become obvious over the years it's that publishers are sharks, ranging from EA's practices of buying up studios and squeezing the last profits out of them before kicking them to the curb, to NCSoft's callous treatment of their people (or more specific of the studios they own) and customers.

[Cobra Man]

No one made you feel this way. You choose to feel this way.
I am angry at what NCSoft did. I hold them entirely responsible for the premature closing of a successful game and company.
Yet, I do not wish them to fail. I just wish for them to change their business practices. In short, I wish for this.
You're not the only one who's old, tired, grumpy and wants their game back. Just don't be a bitter grumpy tired old man in the process. That's all I'm saying.

Again ... words put in my mouth. That's a really bad habit.

I'll try again.

NCsoft made me feel this way.

I did not choose to feel this way.

If NCsoft hadn't prematurely canceled our game I would not be angry or frustrated and I wouldn't be venting that anger and frustration by posting here.

As for being bitter - yeah perhaps I am a little ... due to NCsoft's actions.

I'll take that one as well - if it helps me focus on getting our game back.

Clear enough?

[Illusionss]

Taceus: Also everyone else STOP WISHING THAT THESE GAMES AND DEVELOPERS FAIL Are you really so mad that you take on the attitude "If my game can't run then no ones game can"

That's really not my rationale. Which is: I want them to stop doing this, because WHAT they are doing is causing pain and heartache to tens of thousands of people.

I want to SPARE others the pain we are going through. Is it worth getting attached to something that can be ripped away with no recourse? Maybe the MMO model of gaming needs to go away.

I really think NCStupid has nooooooooooooooooo idea what kind of dragon they have released. Said dragon having "IS THIS WHOLE THING WORTH INVESTING MY TIME IN?" tattooed on its forehead. It will breathe fire on NCSoft titles FIRST.

[Atlantea]

I started reading this thread and wanted to stay involved with it but it was hard after about page 5-6 or so as things started to go off the rails. Started just skimming the last page or so.

Generally -

-Agreed with Samuraiko
-Agreed with Tony
-Sympathize with Illusioness points and wouldn't stand in the way of any ire or misfortune that befalls NCSoft, would revel just a bit with schadenfreude, but probably not quite as much. Stockwatch on NCSoft going south still entertaining
-On the last 2 pages or so, some of you are circling back around and in a way are proving (negatively) Sam's point. I'd tell you to chill if I thought it would do any good. But... *shrug*

- On Arenanet and GW2. I play it. I never did spend money on it, since it was a gift. I intend never to spend money on it UNLESS Arenanet divest themselves of NCSoft and go with another publisher, at which point I do a 180 and support them as much as I can. Because it IS a good game. And I find it beautiful and interesting and the only thing that dampens my enjoyment is that every so often (at least once per session if not more) I find myself looking around and thinking, "God damnit. All this beautiful work and imagination is all just going to go away someday when NCSoft pulls the plug." And I can only take so much of that before I get depressed and stop playing.

- Initially back in September I was one of the people who thought of COH players who played GW2 as traitors if they bought the game after Black Friday. I'm no longer that intense about it. Maybe I wised up and rationality re-asserted itself. I still think anyone who buys the game KNOWING what NCSoft has done and what their history is is making a mistake. But what're you going to do?

- I do like Father Xmas approach. I still wince a bit that any money at all went to NCSoft. But at least in this case it was as minimal as it could get.


Here's the real point of my post though.

I recently had a bit of an epiphany.

I want GW2 to succeed. I want it to succeed BIG. I want Wildstar to succeed and BIG.

And I want Aion and Lineage to continue to lose subscribers/players and I hope Blade and Soul fails.

Why?

Remember that a few of us pointed out that City of Heroes was a constant low level thorn reminding the execs at NCSoft that their games continuously FAIL in this market, yet here's this 8 year old game chugging reliably along. Defying all expectations by STAYING profitable in the face of their neglect?

If NOTHING ELSE, continued success of GW2 and having Wildstar go big will be yet ANOTHER reminder - as City of Heroes apparently was for a long time - that NCSoft's own in-house games and their idea of what makes a good game KEEP FAILING here in this market. Especially if Blade and Soul tanks.

And consider also how independent ANet appears to be.

If as I suspect, B&S does fail, yet Anet and Carbine succeed, then it's all a TREMENDOUS rebuke to their style of management (top down, micromanagement) and the types of games (in-house developed) that they continue to try and sell here. (Lineage, Aion etc.)

If I can't see NCSoft fail outright, I'll take whatever schadenfreude I can get in watching for subtle signs of their execs squirming and trying to spin all this as THEIR great idea and management when it's nothing of the sort. And I'll be sure to remind people that Anet and Carbine succeed DESPITE NCsoft, not because of them. 

[Knightslayer]

If as I suspect, B&S does fail, yet Anet and Carbine succeed, then it's all a TREMENDOUS rebuke to their style of management (top down, micromanagement) and the types of games (in-house developed) that they continue to try and sell here. (Lineage, Aion etc.)

Considering how poorly Aion and TERA are doing on the Western market I suspect you're going to be right - unless it really, REALLY has some major ace up its sleeve that makes it awesome - I doubt the jiggle physics alone will do it, maybe the whole "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" combat style it seems to be going for will help, but I doubt there is a huge group of players that wants it that badly.

[Twisted Toon]

Again ... words put in my mouth. That's a really bad habit.

I'll try again.

NCsoft made me feel this way.

I did not choose to feel this way.

If NCsoft hadn't prematurely canceled our game I would not be angry or frustrated and I wouldn't be venting that anger and frustration by posting here.

As for being bitter - yeah perhaps I am a little ... due to NCsoft's actions.

I'll take that one as well - if it helps me focus on getting our game back.

Clear enough?

But, you are choosing to continue to feel this way.

*60's mode
Let it flow, man. Let it flow.
/60's mode

May I ask why you want to hang on to your hate and rage so much that if it was a living breathing person you would marry it?

I am sure other players are hurt just as deeply as you say you are. Healix comes to mind immediately. But, they don't seem to hang on to that anger and hate and chew on it on a daily basis. Don't be a Bowler Hat Guy (Meet the Robinsons reference). Find a less self-destructive outlet for your anger and frustration.

I am truly trying to help you.

[Illusionss]

Because if we all adopt an "oh let it flow, this too shall pass, let us all contemplate the center of the universe and forget all this" attitude, the problems for NCSoft go away and they get to pretend nothing ever happened. And that is what they want: for this problem [that THEY started] and its perpetrators - us - to go to a galaxy far, far away.

I think the only "destruction" most people want is the destruction of NCSoft. NCSoft has THEMSELVES to blame for this, as it is their actions that have begun this [fecal matter]-storm, and not people "deciding" or "choosing" to become an army of rage-bots or whatever.

Do you truly have that much control over your emotions, as in you sit around and consider what your emotional response to any given happening will be, and then you make sure its a positive one? I sure dont, my emotions do not wait for the decision of a mental committee before they kick in.

If we forgive, NCSoft completely gets away with what they did to us with no negative outcome for them. That does not sit well with me. They can EARN my forgiveness.

[Triplash]

Do you truly have that much control over your emotions

Controlling your emotions and controlling your responses to them are two different things. No-one expects anyone to be a zen master or a hippy. Just to avoid looking like a three-year-old who throws tantrums in public. People who do that are making us all look bad, and some of us need to look good in the public eye. Namely, the people who are actually trying to get the game running again.

Put yourself in the shoes of the people getting one of Team Wildcard's pitches. One of the key assets being hyped to them is the friendliness and maturity of our established playerbase. So they decide to do a little research on general gaming sites, and what do they see? Four out of five people claiming to be CoH players, doing what amounts to running up into people's faces and cursing a blue streak. "This is what you're calling an outstanding community?" they think to themselves. "Get lost."