<rant on>The #COH community has long since been acknowledged as mature and friendly, a generally classy bunch...
Generally, I'm proud to be part of it. But there are times lately when I'm not so sure.
Am I angry with @NCsoftGames and @NCsoft for killing my game? Yes. But that's where my anger is directed - THEM.
Do I want @ArenaNet, @Carbine_Studios, Guild Wars, and Wildstar to fail just because of my anger? Absolutely not.
And these days, more than anything, I cringe each time I see #COH players commenting on other game articles because it's always so NEGATIVE.
Because for all the positive momentum that #SaveCOH built - this unmitigated bashing and bilespewing is killing it.
It's why so many other gamers look at us with a mix of disdain, disgust, and pity. We've sunk to a level that we normally never would have.
And it needs to stop. There has to be a better way. I don't know what it is. But there has to be one.
And I'm sure there are #COH players who are going to unfollow me or deem me a 'traitor' for these posts. So be it.
But even if the game comes back... it's going to take an even greater miracle to bring back the community that made #COH great.
That's all I wanted to say. <rant off>
Re: my #COH 'rant' last night - first off, I'm glad to see that a lot of people actually agreed with me (and thank you for the RTs).
Also, re: my #COH rant - for the record, no, @NCsoftGames and @NCSOFT will never be getting another dime from me.
Do I mention #COH while I play other games? Sure, if it's appropo (or if I do something dumb like forgetting I can't fly)...
... in fact, in @lotro, virtually everyone in our kinship on Gladden is a former #COH player. But we don't spam server channels about #COH.
This past Saturday, I posted a 'rant' on Twitter that came out of reading the comments section on a gaming site in which, as per usual lately, the closure of COH came up. Said comments (on both sides) being rather negative, I found myself posting the following:
On Sunday, I followed it up with:
I know I have a lot of followers on Twitter (many of whom played COH), and since posting those, yes, people have apparently unfollowed me, although no one has outright refuted me for saying any of this. And a couple of folks supported the idea of me sharing it here.
So, here it is. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm not naming names, I'm not saying any one person is to blame. I'm just saying that this is what I see. And I don't like it. At ALL. We're better than this, guys.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
We're better than this, guys.I suppose it depends on what you mean by "we." Overall, I found the CoH player community to be a good one, and a better one than average when it came to suppressing internet-amplified brain damage. However, "we" never were immune from having members that were various amounts of deranged.
Sigh,
Going to have to say I don't agree with you, Ko. Not because you took a stand...not a problem with that, but you referred to "negative" comments without giving the context.
Do I want other NCSoft games to fail? It would not break my heart. But that is just my opinion. I vote with my wallet, as some one else on here stated. I will not give a single dime to NCSoft...and I DO "SUGGEST" that others do the same. There is nothing wrong with this...nothing evil or demeaning. It is simple consumer action...nothing more.
Now if the "negative" comments were directed at people who decide to play the game, then that is another matter. If people disagree with my stand and decide to continue funding NCSoft, that is their right! I may think they are wrong...but I am just as sure they think I am as well.
No, as a consumer that has been, in my opinion, done dirty by NCSoft, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with me, as a consumer, doing what I can to convince others (through reason and calm discussion) to join with me in doing what ever can be done, legally, to hurt NCSoft financially. It is NOT okay, however, to lash out at other consumers that do not agree with me.
I think most people have been fairly mature about it. I've largely restricted my comments to correcting what I see as factual inaccuracies posted on other sites (CoH wasn't profitable, F2P was a disaster etc).Pretty much what I've been doing.
...is an exercise in futility.
"The #COH community has long since been acknowledged as mature and friendly, a generally classy bunch..."
Originally posted by KariTR
P2P MMOs
Best - CoX (I only played the trial, but the community really stood out for me as one of the nicest I ever met)Worst - WoW (hands down the least inviting for anyone new going in alone. Even had I loved the game (I didnt) the community would have put me off subscibing - not that Blizzard need worry about that )
Honourable mentions to LoTRO - nice community, sad game - and L2 which manages to have the best and the worse community all in one; thats PvP for you
Free MMOs
Best - 12 Skys (aeria game version). The GMs really look after their "customers" and that transmits throughout the whole community.
Worse - Kal Online
reading the comments section on a gaming site
. We are Human after all and when stressed we tend to be jerks even if otherwise we are good folk.
But above all: stay POSITIVE and stay BLUE SIDE!
So if I were to say, burn down NCSoft's HQ.... at night, while no one was there... that'd still be blueside, right? Taking out a corrupt coporation, same as fighting Crey. Right? :pI think Crey did some actual illegal things. Like human experimentation without a license, building weapons of destruction without a permit, and supplying cyborgs and killer robots for themselves and other groups without proper registration.
This thread reminds me of a conversation I had in a dungeon group in Guild Wars 2. This is from memory, no chat logs in GW2 (I don't think there are, anyway). Names are changed because apparently one of them posts here, or at least lurks.
Team Lead: Anyone have any friends that could fill the last spot?
(the 5th person on our party had to leave because his kids were acting up)
Me: Let me ask my guildmates.
Member: What guild?
Me: JC. A bunch of us came over from City of Heroes.
Member2: I loved City of Heroes.
Me: Me too.
Member: Didn't play it much, I was more into DC.
TL: Any replies?
Me: Not yet.
Member2: I miss CoH so much. You know they're making some new games though, right?
Me: The Plan Z stuff? Yep. I check on them about once a week - I really miss CoH, I play with the character creator & Mids still.
Member2: So you are on the Titan Forums?
Me: Yeah, virtually same name as my name here.
Member2: So in other words you are a [bleeping] traitor.
Me: No, I don't think so.
TL: Whoa
Member: Chill
Member2: You go on and on [I don't remember everything he said, but it was a bile-filled verbal rampage calling my sexuality, my ancestry, and potential progeny's feelings towards me into question] but when it comes down to it you are supporting the company that closed our CoH
Me: What game are you playing?
Member2: [ All capital letters, swears ] YOU [bleep] YOU [bleep] YOU
TL boots Member2, asks if we can find 2 members.
Seriously tired of the vitriol.
There are jerks everywhere, it's a shame that they are the ones that stick in our minds the most.yep.
Member2: You go on and on [I don't remember everything he said, but it was a bile-filled verbal rampage calling my sexuality, my ancestry, and potential progeny's feelings towards me into question] but when it comes down to it you are supporting the company that closed our CoH
Me: What game are you playing?
Member2: [ All capital letters, swears ] YOU [bleep] YOU [bleep] YOU
I'll be honest, I want NCSoft to fall. I really do. And I wish that didn't have to involve some honestly pretty decent games falling with them, but the fact of the matter is with the way the company seems to be run it's going to. The further down they get, the more good people are going to get cut loose to protect the ones who're dragging them down.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=cdn.uproxx.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2Fharrison-ford-finger-point-2.jpg)
Member2: So in other words you are a [bleeping] traitor.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-PrBQ6Bh2phg%2FT4hupUtYn2I%2FAAAAAAAAADI%2F_70J5XphPoY%2Fs1600%2FConfusedDog.jpg)
Me: No, I don't think so.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.volacci.com%2Ffiles%2Fimce-uploads%2Fwhoa.jpg)
TL: Whoa
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.destinationhollywood.com%2Fmovies%2Fbatman%2Fimages%2Fmoviequotes%2Fbatman4_clip03.jpg)
Member: Chill
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.crabbygolightly.com%2Fimages%2Fmad_gibson.jpg)
Member2: You go on and on [I don't remember everything he said, but it was a bile-filled verbal rampage calling my sexuality, my ancestry, and potential progeny's feelings towards me into question] but when it comes down to it you are supporting the company that closed our CoH
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=tvmedia.ign.com%2Ftv%2Fimage%2Farticle%2F115%2F1159765%2Fsexy-detective-makeovers-20110405085140485.jpg)
Me: What game are you playing?
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.dvice.com%2Fsites%2Fdvice%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fmedia_gallery_image%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fhead_explosion_01-MATH.jpg)
...
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.dvice.com%2Fsites%2Fdvice%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fmedia_gallery_image%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fhead_explosion_15-MATH.jpg)
Member2: [ All capital letters, swears ] YOU [bleep] YOU [bleep] YOU
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img2-2.timeinc.net%2Few%2Fdynamic%2Fimgs%2F081023%2FFYEO-02_l.jpg)
TL boots Member2, asks if we can find 2 members.
I know *I* won't be supporting anything from NCSoft and the only grass roots thing I can do on my end which is not spend money on things they produce/support etc. Frankly its the only thing I can do, that and tell friends and other gamers about NCSoft's history. If that's too "negative" for some people then we will just have to agree to disagree on "negative".
Unicorns could also be saying they are from COH when in truth they aren't. Then again there was a reason some CoH players I know called Freedom, Freedumb. Lets not forget the Pocket D surprises.
Yes we as a community is one of the best out there. (Still is in my book) but that don't mean everyone that played or even considers themselves part of the community lives up to the Image. We are Human after all and when stressed we tend to be jerks even if otherwise we are good folk.
I know *I* won't be supporting anything from NCSoft and the only grass roots thing I can do on my end which is not spend money on things they produce/support etc. Frankly its the only thing I can do, that and tell friends and other gamers about NCSoft's history. If that's too "negative" for some people then we will just have to agree to disagree on "negative".We must all decide for ourselves if the purpose to our words is in the hearing, or the speaking.
I don't like ncsoft. I am not giving them any more money. I'm not playing any of their other games. I have about 10 free trials in my master account that I'm never going to use. I have a friend of mine that wants me to try GW2 but I keep telling her that I refuse to be a customer of them.
HOWEVER, I don't wish ill will towards Arenanet or Carbine Studios. I hope they do well. I won't play any games that they publish through ncsoft, though. It doesn't matter to me if other people play their games. It's their choice. I choose not to. I'm not going to fling insults or say I'm any better because of my own personal feelings. I may not agree with their decision, but I can respect it.
And THAT, my friends, is what I believe to be the biggest problem. The lack of respect of other people's decision on what to do after the closure.Personally, I started playing the Blizzard juggernaut, but I can't get into it with the same enthusiasm. I guess I'm still kinda searching.
There may possibly be people that disagree with me. Bring on the hate!!!!
HOWEVER, I don't wish ill will towards Arenanet or Carbine Studios. I hope they do well. I won't play any games that they publish through ncsoft, though.
Friend: "Hmmm... I've seen a lot I like in GUILD WARS, what do you think?"
Me: "Well, personally, what I've seen looks pretty nice, but I'm not interested in it because I'm boycotting NCsoft and because I'm already in two other fantasy games. But there are a lot of folks who like it, so if you want to try it, give it a go."
Friend: "What? Why won't you play stuff that NCsoft makes?"
Me: "Because of how they handled CITY OF HEROES for the longest time, and then slamming the door on it the way they did. I resent the living hell out of them, personally, so I'm expressing my consumer opinion with my wallet."
Personally I could care less what people think about NCsoft.
They won't be getting any more of my cash unless they do the honorable thing and allow the CoH IP to be used.
Yes it initially annoyed me to see a GW2 thread here, but I accept that some people will react differently to being shafted by NCsoft and not think anything of playing another NCsoft game.
In such a situation, what would Statesman do? The icon of Paragon City never allowed his allies to succumb to bickering, infighting and overall nastiness. They were, and YOU ARE, better than that.
Congratulations on using you right to free speech responsibly and reasonably. The Internet is a woderful tool for establishing the good or bad name of the people and organizations in our world. NCSoft was very foolish to so provoke us for a quick buck.
When heated ranting and raving becomes public, you need to take a step back and take a deep breath.Technically speaking, the last time that happened Statesman tried to fix the problem all by himself and got killed.
In such a situation, what would Statesman do?
Technically speaking, the last time that happened Statesman tried to fix the problem all by himself and got killed.
The lesson is, of course, when people think they are fighting the good fight but they are just drawing the ire of the world upon themselves alone, its never a good thing. Because the devs hate tankers.
Sorry for getting up on my soap box here, but this is an all too common misconception that is a major pet peeve of mine.Actually, that's an incorrect interpretation of the first amendment to the US Constitution. The first amendment does not explicitly grant free speech nor does it have anything to do with protesting the government. The first amendment actually grants the free exercise of speech to be unimpeded by government restriction. Or to put it more directly, it doesn't grant the right to free speech, it actually limits the right of the government to restrict speech. Because its a government limitation, not a declaration of a right, there is no specific constitutional protection of free speech itself. My employer, for example, could restrict my right to say anything at all within the workplace. They would not be violating a Constitutional right, because I have no right to free speech. My sole right under the First Amendment is to be free of governmental restrictions.
This has aboslutely nothing to do with "free speech." In the USA, Freedom of Speech as guaranteed by the Constitution, is the right to protest the actions of the governemnt without fear of reprisal or punishment from that government, or the government being able to silence your opinion. Once upon a time, those who disagreed with the government and it's laws, and voiced thier opinion, were imprisoned or executed; it is this sort of thing that Freedom of Speech is intended to protect against.
Internet forum posts about computer games and those who play them is not "free speech," and there is no right being exercised here. Referring to it as such demeans the actual right and obsucres the importance of its purpose.
Case in point (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/461687407/kickstarter-open-source-death-star).Ok...wow. I...kind of...lack the words here...
Case in point (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/461687407/kickstarter-open-source-death-star).
Ok...wow. I...kind of...lack the words here...Did you know that a 0.022 scale Deathstar made from Lego can not be build on the planet Earth? It would have to be assembled in Space.
Case in point (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/461687407/kickstarter-open-source-death-star).
QuoteWhat colours will the Open Source Death Star be?If we let everyone choose the colour of one piece it'll pobably look grey anyway so we'll either have a poll or paint it rainbow colours. Yes there will be a smiley on it.
As an amusing (and rather more clever dig than I would have given them credit for) follow-up I received in my mailbox yesterday 30 pieces of silver from that particular person I posted about here.
Also look at it this way, when NCSoft killed off other games before CoH, the players probably felt the same way as we did. They probably told people to boycott NCSoft and many people probably did and they were justified to do so, and all of those players never had the chance to take part in the magic that was City of Heroes.
Its just too bad the only way to support these developers is by somewhat supporting NCSoft even if you aren't actively supporting them, you just have to ask your self is it more important that hundreds of thousands employees remain employed and developers having a chance to make their hard work and dreams come to life with NCSoft getting some on the side, or that NCSoft pay and burn for what they have done.Problem is, none of those developement studios currently attached to NCSoft is safe from the chopping block.
Problem is, none of those developement studios currently attached to NCSoft is safe from the chopping block.
FX: $50 retail (NCsoft doesn't get all of it) once is a lot less than the $140 a year I was spending on CoH. So it's slightly more than zero the boycotters are giving but NCsoft is still losing money from me for shutting down CoH. Their loss. Plus if you want to think about it, for how long does their share of my retail purchase help pay for my use of their servers and bandwidth? I'm costing them money in the long run.
I hear GW2 is about to release an expansion. I couldn't WAIT to see CoX expansions, and when I had the opportunity, paid for them in advance - happily.
I am not purchasing this, or any other GW2 expansion. Nope. For one thing, my highest level character is level 22.... but even had I seen all the content so far, I still won't be buying.
I am hoping the game gets more interesting in higher levels, but right now I am playing occasionally and sort of having to force myself to do it. I LIKE my character, I just find the game rather boring... jog, jog jog everywhere. This does not bode well for my spending freely in the cash shop, my problems with NCSoft to the side.
Actually... (https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Expansion-targeted-for-2013/first)interesting
I enter a mission, trigger a spawn of fifteen NPCs that come running and swarm me, each of which hits like an Elite Boss. I'm level 15 myself, by the way. In what universe am I supposed to come out on top, in that situation....?The Freeemiverse.
There is a deadening sameness to GW2. No matter what weapon you use, its just like all the other weapons everyone else has, except in appearance. If you meet another Guardian, guess what? They do pretty much the same thing your Guardian does. ....
Not in GW2. Everything is the same..... I'm level 15 myself, by the way. In what universe am I supposed to come out on top, in that situation....? I am currently dealing with it by clearing the mission after leveling up at least four times, then going back in. FAIL!
*big sigh*
I have three GW characters, levels 22, 20 and 15 respectively, each of a different class. i think the problem is going to be KEEPING my interest until level 40; right now its an almighty long slog. I'd look you up for sure, but I'm on Gate of Madness.
The longer i am away from it, the more I miss CoX. I sure do miss feeling powerful. I dont feel powerful anywheres else, my characters feel like wet tissue paper.
Excuse the thread-jack, people.
I have three GW characters, levels 22, 20 and 15 respectively, each of a different class. i think the problem is going to be KEEPING my interest until level 40; right now its an almighty long slog. I'd look you up for sure, but I'm on Gate of Madness.
The longer i am away from it, the more I miss CoX. I sure do miss feeling powerful. I dont feel powerful anywheres else, my characters feel like wet tissue paper.
Excuse the thread-jack, people.
This past Saturday, I posted a 'rant' on Twitter that came out of reading the comments section on a gaming site in which, as per usual lately, the closure of COH came up. Said comments (on both sides) being rather negative, I found myself posting the following:
On Sunday, I followed it up with:
I know I have a lot of followers on Twitter (many of whom played COH), and since posting those, yes, people have apparently unfollowed me, although no one has outright refuted me for saying any of this. And a couple of folks supported the idea of me sharing it here.
So, here it is. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm not naming names, I'm not saying any one person is to blame. I'm just saying that this is what I see. And I don't like it. At ALL. We're better than this, guys.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
oh... ummm *redirects orbital lance from carving NCSoft hate slogans into the moon into space instead*The issue is less about how one feels, less about how one chooses to express that feeling, and more about whether one feels compelled to express that feeling to people who have not asked to be exposed to that feeling.
yeah.. I suppose even praetorians should have a bit of self respect before venting out what we feel for NCSoft.
I know sometimes even here on titan I have been a bit heavy in my language towards them.
BUT... GRRRRR... sometimes I .. hate them sooooooo very much.... I apologize for those times of extreme anger.
words cannot truely express the pain NCSoft has brought to me and I'm sure others.
Team Lead: Anyone have any friends that could fill the last spot?
(the 5th person on our party had to leave because his kids were acting up)
Me: Let me ask my guildmates.
Member: What guild?
Me: JC. A bunch of us came over from City of Heroes.
Member2: I love French Fries.
Me: Err... me too?
Member: Don't eat french fries, I'm a vegetarian.
TL: Any replies?
Me: Not yet.
Member2: I really really love french fries. Mostly McDonalds fries.
Me: Uh, yeah. Sure.
Member2: Do you go to McDonalds?
Me: Err... sometimes, but I often eat the curly fries at Jack in the Box.
Member2: So in other words you are a [bleeping] traitor.
Me: No, I ... wait, what?
TL: Whoa
Member: I like Chili! Vegetarian chili of course.
Member2: You go on and on [I don't remember everything he said, but it was a bile-filled verbal rampage calling my sexuality, my ancestry, and potential progeny's feelings towards me into question] but when it comes down to it you are supporting the company that makes horrible french fries!
Me: What the heck? Can we stop talking about french fries and get to this mission?
Member2: [ All capital letters, swears ] YOU [bleep] YOU [bleep] YOU
TL boots Member2, asks if we can break for lunch.
I know I have a lot of followers on Twitter (many of whom played COH), and since posting those, yes, people have apparently unfollowed me, although no one has outright refuted me for saying any of this. And a couple of folks supported the idea of me sharing it here.
So, here it is. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm not naming names, I'm not saying any one person is to blame. I'm just saying that this is what I see. And I don't like it. At ALL. We're better than this, guys.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Cobra, that's not what she's talking about. She's not talking about your feelings. She's not talking about voicing your feelings where and as appropriate.
She's talking about going off on NCsoft in every article, every thread, every conversation that even comes remotely close to being related. Bashing NCsoft at every opportunity. Calling names and being mean. Disparaging and insulting people who either a) support NCsoft or b) support a game that happens to be published by NCsoft.
None of that is called for. None of that shines a welcome light on our cause. NONE OF THAT IS HELPFUL.
PS; the grammar bitch in me points out that 'could care less' means you care a little, and you could reduce the amount of caring you feel. 'Couldn't care less' means you don't care at all, and there is no way for you reduce the amount of caring you feel. Since you are so adamant about your opinion of NCsoft, I'm sure you'd want to be clearer that you couldn't, in fact, care less. ;)
Yes, Cobra, it makes me uncomfortable, but only because you are negative to not only NCSoft, but the poor bystanders that had nothing to do with the CoH closure, and who's products were established and/or being built way way before this closure happened.
Be like saying "I hope that ALL the Home Depots go out of business because I got a crappy Black and Decker power drill, and Black and Decker won't fix it when it broke. Screw Home Depot."
Or maybe "I hope All the Ford Dealerships in the lands go out of business because I bought one, and Ford's warranty program won't cover the brake pads. Frack them all."
I mean, really. Kinda harsh, man. Although if it happens, you'll sort of have your wish. If NCSoft fails, they will automatically fail with them. It is MORE likely that NCSoft will cut them off before NCSoft fails. Whether that's shutdown or sale, who knows. But yeah, they'll be the victims before NCSoft is of failure.
I must say, though, that you are definitely NOT "better than them" if that's your attitude about it. You have sunk a little lower, in fact, in advocating a scorched earth issue like that. I'm glad you don't care about my opinion on this, though, so I expect you to not respond to this at all.
/I wonder what'll happen now... *look of pondering*
And once again, you've failed to read what people are saying. And you've also said, again, that you could care less - when in reality you mean you couldn't. Words have a meaning, and it's best to use the one that means what you are trying to say. It's also best to read what people are writing instead of glossing over things and then talking about something sort of related.
No one is saying you can't feel that way. No one is saying you can't talk about feeling that way. No one is saying you're a bad person.
What we're saying is that there are some people that are going apeshit overboard about it and need to calm the pancake down.
If all CoH has become is hating NCsoft...no thanks.
"Shit I am glad NCSoft shut your game down"or
"At first I was upset the game shut down but I am so sick of these people always in these articles, I am glad its shut down just to piss them off"
Harsh?
How much harsher can it get?
Our game has been shut down and NCsoft are happy with that situation.
Sometimes a stand has to be made.
It's not about hating NCsoft.There is a difference between boycotting a company and wishing that company to fail utterly. You have taken it beyond just boycotting though.
It's entirely about disagreeing with their actions regarding the closure of CoH - and by what means you can express that.
I have taken it upon myself to boycott any company that has dealings with NCsoft. It's a small gesture, but it's mine to make.
If more people take a similar stand then perhaps the message will get to NCsoft.
Anyways .. it's late here (05:20) and I'm off to bed ....
There seems to be a lot of words being put in my mouth that I haven't said here.That is not what I read from this previous post of yours.
I don't want "the complete and utter destruction of NCSoft and anything remotely related to it" and I certainly don't want the families of ArenaNet and Carbine to go hungry anytime soon.
First off, I've been a fan of your work for years, but I feel the need to respond here.
Blame is an easy word to use, but in this case it's incorrect.
Betrayal - by NCsoft - is far more appropriate.
You may not like the negativity towards ArenaNet and Carbine etc but I find myself hoping for nothing but total failure for them, such is my utter disappointment with the actions of NCsoft.
I could care less what anyone else thinks of my position on that.
NCsoft can go to Hell - and so can any company that associates itself with them.
Not one penny of mine will go to any company that does business with NCsoft.
If that makes you uncomfortable then so be it.
I know that I'm better than them.
I don't want "the complete and utter destruction of NCSoft and anything remotely related to it"
Not too pleased with gaming companies as a whole right now, anyways. Nowadays, to DL a PC game you are forced to DL "anti-pirating" software, monitored by a second company. And in the case of programs like SecuRom, you might have to wipe your HD to get it off. Its that tenacious.
*gives entire gaming industry the side-eye* Who do you companies think you ARE? A modern police-state? No offense to those present, but to the gaming industry in general? **** you people. The more money I spend, the less I like you.
Have to admit it, I kinda do.
I'm not anywheres ranting about it, but any ill winds that blow thier way.... well.... they bought and paid for 'em. If they want to dish it out, they better be able to take it.
Not too pleased with gaming companies as a whole right now, anyways. Nowadays, to DL a PC game you are forced to DL "anti-pirating" software, monitored by a second company. And in the case of programs like SecuRom, you might have to wipe your HD to get it off. Its that tenacious.
*gives entire gaming industry the side-eye* Who do you companies think you ARE? A modern police-state? No offense to those present, but to the gaming industry in general? **** you people. The more money I spend, the less I like you.
As for the grammar Nazi thing ... I could care less :)Couldn't care less.
That is not what I read from this previous post of yours.
The only person putting words in your mouth is you.
Boycotting is fine. It is a valid method of letting a business know that you are unhappy with them. Just try to keep it Blue-side.
Couldn't care less.
It's immaterial to me. I could care less .... :)You may mean innumerable, and that's another part of grammar...
I find myself hoping for nothing but total failure for them
Those aren't even close to utter destruction or starving families.
You need to try harder.
Please, I encourage you to tell me how TOTAL FAILURE FOR THEM would result in anything less then hardships.I suppose its theoretically possible for everyone at NCSoft to leave the company simultaneously and form a new company that is much more successful. I think that's unlikely though, as NCSoft is not a bistro.
That is the one that got it for me, we aren't trying to make you sound stupid, we are telling you stop being a cold blooded dick Cobra man.
Please, I encourage you to tell me how TOTAL FAILURE FOR THEM would result in anything less then hardships. What happens when you do bad at a job? YOU GET FIRED. What happens when you get fired. YOU STOP GETTING PAID. By wishing for the failures of these companies you are wishing that they don't succeed as a game which will lead to their unemployment. Oh but you "could care less" which is why you keep coming back to defend your self, right?
Also everyone else STOP WISHING THAT THESE GAMES AND DEVELOPERS FAIL Are you really so mad that you take on the attitude "If my game can't run then no ones game can" You should be wishing that they get bought out by another company or go indie, yes I would love NCSoft to fail. But I am not a huge douchebag that hopes thousands of people get the shaft so the handful of people who shut down COH get what they deserve, WHICH THEY WOULDN'T. All of you on a crusade, all of you on a mission. The people responsable for the closure of City of heroes, will never pay. There is nothing you can do to make them pay, EVER. You think anything you can do will make them less rich, less happy, less successful? Even if NCSoft burns to the ground they will be just fine. So worry about getting our game back AND NOT SOME STUPID FOOL HEARTY MISSION TO MAKE NCSOFT PAY, wont happen, cant happen. Get the pancake over it. Put your pride and ego side and focus on getting our game back.
That is a disgusting, weak minded, assholeish attitude. Anyone who wishes the pain that NCSoft inflicted on them to be inflicted onto others. Don't deserve the game back.
I don't mean to get angry but to see such a lack of empathy and disregard for others make me sick to my stomach. You really want to become as bad as the monster you are fighting? You guys want GW2 and Wildstar to fail so COH TITAN CAN BE THE NEXT MMO KILLER ?
If I crossed the line sorry, but many of you crossed mine when you started hoping for the failure of companies and people who did nothing to you.
What I am hearing is that some of the people here want 97% of the innocent people to pay. You think the people who answer phones at NCSoft had anything to do with the closure of NCSoft? But hey you guys what do I know. I suppose hundreds of thousands of people do deserve to suffer and struggle for the actions of maybe a hundred people who wont suffer or struggle in anyway at all. Makes sense to me.
You think anything you can do will make them less rich, less happy, less successful?
Please, I encourage you to tell me how TOTAL FAILURE FOR THEM would result in anything less then hardships.
... I suppose I should be grateful that at least we're turning on one another in the privacy of our own forums instead of out in public.Yeah, there's that. :-\
You're under the false assumption that NCsoft not experiencing total failure would not result in hardshipsVery fair point Tony V. That is why I wish for those companies to go their own direction or have at the very least a buyout like Arenanet does. I don't want those companies to under go hardships and I want them as far away from NCSoft as possible, not shutdown or to fail for their associations I just want people to take that approach instead of "They work with NCSoft let them burn."
but I find this attitude extraordinarily defeatistAgain, fair point. I can see how it would come off that way. I still have hope for CoH, I still want to fight and I really do think NCSoft should acknowledge their mistakes and learn from it. I would love game companies to stop pushing around their customers as well. I just want to make sure we don't become the monsters we are fighting, and I don't want us to stoop to their level.
If NCsoft goes out of business, especially if it's due to the efforts of some in our community, it will be a very clear message to other megapublishers that what NCsoft did is not acceptable. It's entirely possible that it could help to keep other studios open. If there is no negative consequences to NCsoft and the status quo is maintained, it will likewise be a very clear message to other megapublishers that it's okay to kick communities to the curb without much fear of negative reprisals.
And in case it's not obvious, if the game is brought back, that means creation of jobs that wouldn't have otherwise been around.That would be awesome it would, I am just looking for a way that doesn't cost a bunch of people that had nothing to do with the closure losing their jobs is all. Best case scenario both would happen.
you understand where people are coming from more than you're letting on.I understand exactly where everyone is coming from I am angry at NCSoft too, but I also understand how easy it is to be royally screwed by simply just not knowing it may be a chain reaction. I don't care if people are mad at NCSoft I really don't, I just care that people are mad at people who had nothing to do with it, I feel our passion and anger should be aimed in the right direction.
"This place is awful and I'm never coming back here again! And I'm telling all of my friends and family about this!" If so, did you really secretly mean, "I hope that the janitor who is a nice guy who has nothing to do with the crappy service and is trying to support his three kids gets laid off so that he and his family have to starve!"?A fair question so I feel you deserve an answer.
No one made you feel this way. You choose to feel this way.
NCsoft made me feel this way and I'll damn well let others know just exactly how I'm feeling about their selfish and narrow minded behavior.
I'm just old, tired and grumpy ..... and I want my game back.You're not the only one who's old, tired, grumpy and wants their game back. Just don't be a bitter grumpy tired old man in the process. That's all I'm saying.
First off I would like to start by apologizing, I just lost my temper. I very much so respect all of you and your opinion and I didn't mean to lash out. But I have lost count of the amount of times I, my friends, or my family has been screwed royally by people not taking into consideration the chain of events that take place. I once faced 15 years in prison for a crime I never did, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person. Simply guilt by association and it took a $20,000 lawyer and a year and half in a court just to have them say "Even though we knew you were innocent you were just someone caught on the crossfire" I just don' want a bunch of people that had nothing to do with this to be caught in our cross fire.
Cobra man I don't think you are an a-hole or a douche I really don't, but its easy for good intentions to slip into those areas.
Very fair point Tony V. That is why I wish for those companies to go their own direction or have at the very least a buyout like Arenanet does. I don't want those companies to under go hardships and I want them as far away from NCSoft as possible, not shutdown or to fail for their associations I just want people to take that approach instead of "They work with NCSoft let them burn."
Again, fair point. I can see how it would come off that way. I still have hope for CoH, I still want to fight and I really do think NCSoft should acknowledge their mistakes and learn from it. I would love game companies to stop pushing around their customers as well. I just want to make sure we don't become the monsters we are fighting, and I don't want us to stoop to their level.
I would like to see NCSoft pay for what they have done, I would. But I just cant help but think of all the people who would be getting hurt so much more then the people who actually were behind the CoH shutdown. I am thinking of the mail room people, the receptionist, the interns etc etc.
Like you said TonyV
I hope our efforts here do change the way publishers think they can treat people. I just don't want people being caught in the crossfire who literally didn't do anything but have a bad employer.
If we are going to be the community that tries and change the way publishers and gaming companies act. Then we need to lead by example.
That would be awesome it would, I am just looking for a way that doesn't cost a bunch of people that had nothing to do with the closure losing their jobs is all. Best case scenario both would happen.
To sum it up, if NCSoft can fail and not bring down a bunch of people who are just trying to make a living and get through the day, then that is great. I just really want people to consider how many people may be caught in the crossfire of that happening. How many people would get laid off to try and save the company for bankruptcy. Things like that. Now of course the world doesn't ever work out the way you want but I feel the best possible outcome of all of this is:CoH IP is released, Gaming companies learn they can't treat their customers/fans this way, and also that there isn't a bunch of collateral damage. I am just worried we will become zealots hell-bent on destroying NCSoft more then we are trying to rescue CoH and change the standard for companies.
Again sorry for my language, and my attitude but to quote Tony again even though this is directed to everyone that read my other post.
I understand exactly where everyone is coming from I am angry at NCSoft too, but I also understand how easy it is to be royally screwed by simply just not knowing it may be a chain reaction. I don't care if people are mad at NCSoft I really don't, I just care that people are mad at people who had nothing to do with it, I feel our passion and anger should be aimed in the right direction.
For the mods: I should of watched my language, sorry. But maybe this will help your filter system when I was using the bold command it somehow didn't censor the word.
NCSoft executives are a bunch of greedy jerks, I know this. People are angry I know this too, I am angry as well and want my game back. But we can't stoop down to their level. I am more concerned about the re-birth of City of Heroes, then I am the destruction of NCSoft. There is a way to show companies they can't act this way without all the fire and brimstone.
Unrelated: A fair question so I feel you deserve an answer.
I don't tell people things like that. If I don't like a restaurant I just won't eat there, I will leave the decision up to other people if they want to eat there or not. I would also take it up with the manager and tell him where I think he could improve, now we tried this with NCSoft and it didn't work. More importantly though that restaurant would close because of its poor service and food, the same way eventually NCsoft will close because of their poor service. However if I were to say that, of course I wouldn't secretly mean that. That is my whole point. Of course people don't want these people to fail I am not accusing anyone of that. I am saying the chain reaction of that restaurant closing would be the janitor out of a job, no one even considered the janitor that is what bothered me so much. It seems no one is considering these worker bees that had nothing to do with it. And if I knew my actions put that janitor out on his behind because I forgot to consider him, I would feel terrible.
Long post sorry. TonyV just to let you know while I used your quotes this post was directed to everyone I may have insulted or been rude too. I just felt that replying to your post alone was able to sum up how I actually felt now that I have cooled down.
Cocktail waitresses and hotel staff work in casinos. They may be innocent, but it doesn't change the fact that their paychecks are funded on broken dreams.
this is true.
But if we hold that standard to every business, entity, job then most people here would be out of work and probably homeless due to the way that even real estate market works.
I hear all the time that MMOs and online culture are harbingers of the future. Many people say that they symbolize a more harmonious future. But I believe we have seen the dark side of that future in what we've seen in the CoH closure.
And, in fact, I'd have to agree with you that many of our institutions and industries are becoming more corrupt. But I think that the whole issue behind the MMO industry is a special sort of corruption; a special sort of exploitation pioneered by only a few other industries, most of which are on the fringes of acceptability (pornography, gambling, gt rich quick schemes, prostitution, drugs).
It doesn't sell you things; it sells you illusions of things. The things we do, the things we buy, the things we invest care and concern in seem real, they feel real. The industry takes great pains to ensure that they are perceived by people like us that they are real. That is...of course...until it is in their interests to dispell the illusions, leaving us all sad, confused, angry and resentful.
I believe this industry embodies a special kind of corruption: taking advantage of innocent and trusting people, like the good people I met here on this site, through shrewd public relations and powerful imagery. I believe it ought to be exposed as such, so that others learn the lessons we had to learn.
I see what you are saying which remidns of this quote.
"why should we trade 1 dictator 3,000 miles away for 300 dictators 1 mile away?"
What I get from that is what is the point of taking down one entity that is no good if only the ones that aim to take them down is just going to take their place and do the same thing they are angry at the original entity for in the first place? That doesnt change the status quo. That is just plain revenge. Only thing that adds is us vs them, whith us or you're wit hthem mentality, and in the end both parties end up just as dirty all the same.
If we want to show that game custoemrs cant treat customers this way, the best way to change it is to show how they should treat customers and people. Going all fire hell brimstone wanting to bring destruction upon the "enemy" is not going to attain that goal. In fact it's exactly what they just did to us. If it was wrong for them to do it to us, then why would it be right to want to do it to them? The only difference was is that they had the power to do it.
Sometimes collateral damage happens, yes. Sometimes it's envitable, yes. But when it's not and dont have to happen, then why even wish it so to happen. We going down a good path, we'll build our own game, and that more than anything is our time to show how to treat customers. Want the IP back, we have to make them an offer they cant refuse. Or be a big enough investor that if ya withdrew your finance it will make them think twice. As customers, they written us off long ago. They have no more investment with us, but many here are still invested emotionally into NCSoft.
But in the end, I cant stop nor wish to stop anyone from going site to site, wishing destruction upon NCSoft and ect, but all I ask is to think long and hard of what is the true goal that you are trying to obtain and if you are just adding fire with fire or trying to accomplish something greater?
If someone shot me in the leg, hell yeah I'd be pissed and my primitive side would think firt to do is go shoot them, but in the end what does that solve besides justifying the original action that it's right to shoot someone when ya angry. If I felt wrong for being shot, then why would it be right to turn around and shoot them? Maybe that person doesnt know the right thing or know how to be treated right thus dont know how to treat others. And shooting them in the leg in return wont teach them nor change anything besides that next time he should shoot me in the head.
Since this is post number 666, I guess I might as well shre this little tidbit. About four score and seven years ago (not really but it felt that long ago), some one asked, "Why did you join the SaveCOH movement? You already moved on to another game over a year ago, games are just a mere form of entertainment for you, and you didnt speak much to people in the game so why join?" My repy was that "this is more than about me or you, it's about something bigger. Yeah, I was already gone. Yeah it's another game closed, but still, in my heart, I cant stand for people to get jerked around whether I knew them or not. It meant something to them and they want to do something about it and thus I'm goign to try and help them do something about it. To make a change. In the end nothing may change but none cant say that I nor any of them didnt try or speak up." One friend thought I went bat pancake for joining up with a bunch of cult members being led around like sheep by a zealot and that is what she said but I said, someone has to take a stand or else who or what is next? Today it's a game, next someone's home, the next mandatory purchases from a corporation with a gov. in their pocket. Enough is enough and it's about time a group of people finally stood up and said they are not goign to take this crap anymore. Entities that throw around millions and billions of cash think because they are rich they can treat people anyway they want to with no one even questioning it or just groaning and going along quietly after a few days. They are so blatant that many corporations dont even bother pretending to care anymore. In reality we hold the power it's just that people got so used to it being so pancaked that they dont say anything. This is a chance ot say no more. We will not go quietly into the night. They can take their property but we will just build our own. They may make money elsewhere but they will not get none of ours. And this time it's not regular empty threats but it's about actions to show we are people that should be treated and viewed with respect.
At the same time we must not stoop to their level or all of this is for nothing and a waste. Another group of gamers that is full of hate that no respectful business would want to talk or listen to and other companies looking "man, I'm glad they are not our customers. Lets make sure we keep them out of our target group. We dont want to be that. We want to be a group of customers that are viewed as a group that a corporation was idiotic to get rid of.
Many people say that they symbolize a more harmonious future. But I believe we have seen the dark side of that future in what we've seen in the CoH closure.
... I suppose I should be grateful that at least we're turning on one another in the privacy of our own forums instead of out in public.
But like Michelle said earlier:
Oh Michelle, you are so right. I feel foolish for contributing to this argument in the first place. We are here to work together.
Let me say this now: Carbine and Arenanet are not innocent. This isn't because of their relationship with NCsoft. It's because they, NCsoft, SOE, Funcom--and all the others--have bought into the same mentality that it's somehow okay to get good people hooked onto good things, only to take away these good things whenever it suits the providers.Using your examples there, Paragon Studios was corrupt as well. So, NCSoft did the world a favor by getting rid of a corrupt entity. Correct?
yep.My personal opinion is that people refused (or neglected) to see the reality behind the illusion. It happens a lot, unfortunately. My beef with NCSoft is not that they closed the game down. It is in the manner in which they closed the game down, and the misinformation they attempted to give us (or not give us as the case my be) during the process. There were many alternatives they could have chosen that wouldn't have created the situation that we are in now. Many that would have benefited them and us alike. They, seemingly, chose the most heavy-handed approach they could find.
Except that message and the lesson we learned is usually not accepted with open arms.
Even prior to the closing there were talk about the possiblity that NCSoft could close the game down at any moment. Lets just say, those people and their message was not accepted at kindly even though they spoke the truth, a truth that is very real and obvious right now.
Even me, I understood what they was saying and in the back of my head I knew it wasa possiblity thus why I read and understood their EULA. Many people called me paranoid for my habit of reading stuff like that, but as we see now, many those that didnt was blind sided. Others that didnt think it was a possibility was also blind sided.
So thus the question is that did game companies actually sell illusions or was it that people refused to see the reality of that illusion even when they denied the truth when it was presented to them. Of course now it's apparent and unfortunately, it's sad how cruel the lesson is. What I'm getting at is even if we get the lesson we learned now ad tried to teach others, it is possibility they are still as blind and caught up in the illusion as many here was even when the truth is presented to them. Although I think some people was truely deceived and first MMO and such but others, some I know, they chose to remain blind to the facts even when it was presented to them and chose to remain in the veil of the illusion.
Thus I dont believe it's all the sellers fault. They presented a product, but overall t's up to the person to decide to partake or not. Just as it's up to the person to know what are the remifications of partaking especially if someone who has been there is tellign them to becareful and the risk that lies ahead. If they choose to continue on blind, who fault is that? The person that selling? The person that told them the truth they chose to ignore? Or the person for willingly remaining blind? I think in this case none is totally innocent but none is totally at fault. Each must take their share of responsibility including and especially personal responsibility for their own choices and actions.
Or more simply put who is at fault? the drug dealer or the person choosing to buy the drugs? Neither one would exist without the other.
My personal opinion is that people refused (or neglected) to see the reality behind the illusion. It happens a lot, unfortunately. My beef with NCSoft is not that they closed the game down. It is in the manner in which they closed the game down, and the misinformation they attempted to give us (or not give us as the case my be) during the process. There were many alternatives they could have chosen that wouldn't have created the situation that we are in now. Many that would have benefited them and us alike. They, seemingly, chose the most heavy-handed approach they could find.
Which is why I keep saying, I would like for NCSoft to change their business practices to a more customer friendly method. They might find that they'd attract more customers with a friendlier approach.
Thus I dont believe it's all the sellers fault. They presented a product, but overall t's up to the person to decide to partake or not. Just as it's up to the person to know what are the remifications of partaking especially if someone who has been there is tellign them to becareful and the risk that lies ahead. If they choose to continue on blind, who fault is that? The person that selling? The person that told them the truth they chose to ignore? Or the person for willingly remaining blind? I think in this case none is totally innocent but none is totally at fault. Each must take their share of responsibility including and especially personal responsibility for their own choices and actions.
I place no responsibility on the innocent. And, indeed, we owe a lot of what made CoH great to the innocent.
People who are concerned about the EULA don't spend hundreds of hours building beautiful SG bases. Why sacrifice so much time doing content that others can enjoy, if you go into the game under the assumption that it will be for nought?
And you don't spend Paragon Points on the virtual wedding dress if you don't have dreams of wearing it.
And you don't put so much time and effort into AE arcs, if you believe it can all be taken away before you are done.
And you don't spend countless hours--like Tony V and everyone at Titan--designing a wiki and tools, if you are constantly on guard that the game will disappear without notice.
See, I have a hard time understanding how, JaguarX, we can assign blame to the innocent for not believing that NCsoft would take their world away, simply because their EULAs gave NCsoft the right to take their world away. If they truly did believe that, they wouldn't do any of the good things they did in CoH.
No, I don't blame the fans here...not even in part. To do so implies that they ought to have played with a kind of skeptical cynicism that nothing matters; to play as if the only thing that matters is to get to maximum level and a perked out character ASAP, regardless of anything else. Yet this isn't the kind of attitude that made the game great. What made the game great was to build something meaningful, not to make use of the present by hook or crook.
We don't build something meaningful when we take "personal responsibility" for the clause in our EULA that says, more or less, "what you value is a lie." We derrive our desire to build something meaningful when we suspend our disbelief, hope that the signs we see are signs we can trust, and take the time to build.
Hope springs eternal. It's what makes us human. And so, when we see things like updates on the horizon, big plans in store for the upcoming year, new powersets and so on--and we love what we do--it seems...rather obscene...to assign blame to them for feeling upset when all their hopes are dashed by a stroke of an executive's pen.
That's why I don't blame the players here. We were innocent once. Now, however, the business corrupted that innocence.
No one made you feel this way. You choose to feel this way.
I am angry at what NCSoft did. I hold them entirely responsible for the premature closing of a successful game and company.
Yet, I do not wish them to fail. I just wish for them to change their business practices. In short, I wish for this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlR0KElxxVg).
You're not the only one who's old, tired, grumpy and wants their game back. Just don't be a bitter grumpy tired old man in the process. That's all I'm saying.
Taceus: Also everyone else STOP WISHING THAT THESE GAMES AND DEVELOPERS FAIL Are you really so mad that you take on the attitude "If my game can't run then no ones game can"
If as I suspect, B&S does fail, yet Anet and Carbine succeed, then it's all a TREMENDOUS rebuke to their style of management (top down, micromanagement) and the types of games (in-house developed) that they continue to try and sell here. (Lineage, Aion etc.)Considering how poorly Aion and TERA are doing on the Western market I suspect you're going to be right - unless it really, REALLY has some major ace up its sleeve that makes it awesome - I doubt the jiggle physics alone will do it, maybe the whole "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" combat style it seems to be going for will help, but I doubt there is a huge group of players that wants it that badly.
Again ... words put in my mouth. That's a really bad habit.But, you are choosing to continue to feel this way.
I'll try again.
NCsoft made me feel this way.
I did not choose to feel this way.
If NCsoft hadn't prematurely canceled our game I would not be angry or frustrated and I wouldn't be venting that anger and frustration by posting here.
As for being bitter - yeah perhaps I am a little ... due to NCsoft's actions.
I'll take that one as well - if it helps me focus on getting our game back.
Clear enough?
Do you truly have that much control over your emotions
Because if we all adopt an "oh let it flow, this too shall pass, let us all contemplate the center of the universe and forget all this" attitude, the problems for NCSoft go away and they get to pretend nothing ever happened. And that is what they want: for this problem [that THEY started] and its perpetrators - us - to go to a galaxy far, far away.
ANYONE can use the #COH and #SAVECOH hashtags. There will be plenty of people who will use them IN ORDER to throw discredit on Titan and the movement. You see a lot of that in the real world and real world causes too. For all I know, NCSoft is paying people to try and discredit us. It's cheaper than losing business, after all.
oh... ummm *redirects orbital lance from carving NCSoft hate slogans into the moon into space instead*
But, you are choosing to continue to feel this way.
*60's mode
Let it flow, man. Let it flow.
/60's mode
May I ask why you want to hang on to your hate and rage so much that if it was a living breathing person you would marry it?
I am sure other players are hurt just as deeply as you say you are. Healix comes to mind immediately. But, they don't seem to hang on to that anger and hate and chew on it on a daily basis. Don't be a Bowler Hat Guy (Meet the Robinsons reference). Find a less self-destructive outlet for your anger and frustration.
I am truly trying to help you.
Because if we all adopt an "oh let it flow, this too shall pass, let us all contemplate the center of the universe and forget all this" attitude, the problems for NCSoft go away and they get to pretend nothing ever happened. And that is what they want: for this problem [that THEY started] and its perpetrators - us - to go to a galaxy far, far away.No one is saying to stop talking about it. No one is saying to not bring up NCsoft's stupidity where it's appropriate, and at a sane level of animosity. No one is saying you can't be mad. No one is saying you can't be hurt. No one is saying you can't try to do something about it.
Do you truly have that much control over your emotions, as in you sit around and consider what your emotional response to any given happening will be, and then you make sure its a positive one? I sure dont, my emotions do not wait for the decision of a mental committee before they kick in.It's been almost six months since the announcement, and almost three months since the shut down. I have my emotions under control now. When they announced it? Cried for days. Mumbled obscenities under my breath for weeks. Had a sort of rage breakdown, honestly. When it officially closed? Cried for days. Mumbled obscenities under my breath for weeks. Had another rage breakdown, really. However, it's been three months - get ahold of yourself. If you can't control yourself after three months, you have bigger issues than NCsoft shutting down your game!
No one is saying to stop talking about it. No one is saying to not bring up NCsoft's stupidity where it's appropriate, and at a sane level of animosity. No one is saying you can't be mad. No one is saying you can't be hurt. No one is saying you can't try to do something about it.
But going off half-cocked, spewing hatred and vitriol over EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE that you can find that is even REMOTELY related to games, NCsoft, City, having fun, etc.... THAT IS RIDICULOUS AND UNNECESSARY.
You (generic you, the people who do that stuff, not specifically Illusionss) are painting the Save Our City group in a VERY bad light when you do that. You make us look like rageface idiots who cannot contain themselves in an adult manner. It makes us look bad. It makes people think we're just nerdraging fanbabies who had their toys taken away from them and haven't learned yet how to handle that, and instead throw a temper tantrum.
Please note that no one here has accused you (Illusionss) or you (Cobra Man) of doing that. And yet Cobra Man, at least, responds as if we are accusing you (Cobra Man) of that. Because Cobra Man isn't reading the post, he's just looking at the words and responding to what he thinks they mean.
It's been almost six months since the announcement, and almost three months since the shut down. I have my emotions under control now. When they announced it? Cried for days. Mumbled obscenities under my breath for weeks. Had a sort of rage breakdown, honestly. When it officially closed? Cried for days. Mumbled obscenities under my breath for weeks. Had another rage breakdown, really. However, it's been three months - get ahold of yourself. If you can't control yourself after three months, you have bigger issues than NCsoft shutting down your game!
You simply cannot hold on to that level of anger in a healthy manner for that long. Eventually, it stains literally everything you do and every interaction you make.
If I react in a certain way its because people like you keep making assumptions and jump to the wrong conclusion.And we are not talking about people like you, and yet you keep responding as if we are. We are talking about people who are throwing temper tantrums, and you respond like we're talking about you.
To say that I'm not reading the post and I'm just looking at words an responding to what I think they mean is interesting.
It shows that I may have a different opinion from you on the matter of criticizing NCsoft - and I clearly do.
You also assume again that I have been angry since the shut down.
That isn't the case at all. My anger and frustration has slowly built up over time, and unlike someone who is fuelled by rage, I know exactly why I feel this way.
I'm also not afraid to let others know that.
You need to understand that we don't all think and act in exactly the same way - nor do we all have the same opinions.
In short just because you have an opinion on something it doesn't mean yours is necessarily the only valid opinion on the matter.
There's no rage issue here and my anger is very much focused on NCsoft.
Because if we all adopt an "oh let it flow, this too shall pass, let us all contemplate the center of the universe and forget all this" attitude, the problems for NCSoft go away and they get to pretend nothing ever happened. And that is what they want: for this problem [that THEY started] and its perpetrators - us - to go to a galaxy far, far away.You can let go of the hate and anger without forgetting the reason behind them.
I think the only "destruction" most people want is the destruction of NCSoft. NCSoft has THEMSELVES to blame for this, as it is their actions that have begun this [fecal matter]-storm, and not people "deciding" or "choosing" to become an army of rage-bots or whatever.
Do you truly have that much control over your emotions, as in you sit around and consider what your emotional response to any given happening will be, and then you make sure its a positive one? I sure dont, my emotions do not wait for the decision of a mental committee before they kick in.As was said a few posts above this one. Controlling one's emotions and controlling one's responses to emotional stimuli are two different things.
If we forgive, NCSoft completely gets away with what they did to us with no negative outcome for them. That does not sit well with me. They can EARN my forgiveness.You seem to think that in order to forgive, one must forget immediately after. That isn't how it works.
I am not going to let NCSoft ruin the rest of my life by spending the rest of my life holding onto anger and frustration against them.
And we are not talking about people like you, and yet you keep responding as if we are. We are talking about people who are throwing temper tantrums, and you respond like we're talking about you.
Yes I am, but it wasn't comments made by yourself.
Anyways, I'll keep my anger concentrated on NCsoft. It was just the feeling of ... meekness I had here that riled me up a little that's all.
I'm sure we can all get along.
NCSoft treated us like crap. Its easy to lose your temper. But that is what is great about CoHTitan. Aside from brain storming and working on ways to get the game back. We have a place to vent and get angry. We all understand, even if we respond with anger sometimes as well.
We may be different people with different ideas, but we are all here for the same reason. What makes us different is a minor detail compared to what makes us similar.
Bygones be bygones. I personally apologize for losing my temper Cobra man.
I would hardly call this in-fighting to be honest.That is about how I would sum it up.
Perhaps 'minor disagreement that has been amicably resolved' might be a more accurate description?
@Twisted Toon - Red-side method?! You take that back! Some of us redsiders were very sneaky and under-handed I'll have you know (is currently plotting in silence).:PI meant no offense to those that played Red-side. I just wanted to point out that the more obvious red-side plots involving mayhem, chaos, pandemonium, and underwear full of itching powder, were plans that were less than desired for the community image we are attempting to maintain. :)
Someone commits a murder. the relative of the victim forgives that someone.Not sure in what universe that is, but it must be one far, far away.
That is about how I would sum it up.
JaguarX and Taveus Jiwede,
have either of you thought about counseling? With your first hand life experiences, I'm sure you would be able to relate to those with issues that need help much easier than someone like me. Not that I'm a councilor. My most recent field was Security. And my B.S. is in I.T. I've also heard all the jokes about that too. :P
Because if we all adopt an "oh let it flow, this too shall pass, let us all contemplate the center of the universe and forget all this" attitude, the problems for NCSoft go away and they get to pretend nothing ever happened. And that is what they want: for this problem [that THEY started] and its perpetrators - us - to go to a galaxy far, far away.They do not want, nor have any opinion at all about your forgiveness. However, there is no negative outcome to NCSoft when members of the community project the appearance of raving lunatics in public. At best that has no effect. At worst, it helps to marginalize the CoH player community in a way that makes it easier for NCSoft.
I think the only "destruction" most people want is the destruction of NCSoft. NCSoft has THEMSELVES to blame for this, as it is their actions that have begun this [fecal matter]-storm, and not people "deciding" or "choosing" to become an army of rage-bots or whatever.
Do you truly have that much control over your emotions, as in you sit around and consider what your emotional response to any given happening will be, and then you make sure its a positive one? I sure dont, my emotions do not wait for the decision of a mental committee before they kick in.
If we forgive, NCSoft completely gets away with what they did to us with no negative outcome for them. That does not sit well with me. They can EARN my forgiveness.
Actually, I think you'll find that phrase actually means "nobles (and others in power) shouldn't act like complete ****s just because they can." They are "obligated" to display a certain amount of decorum, even toward their subjects, to go along with their station. If you want to call yourself better, you should act like it.Basically. Nobless Oblige was my high school motto. It was synonymized with the biblical quote: "to whom much is given much is expected" although that's not absolutely precise. Its closest historical meaning is your last sentence: a claim of nobility should be backed up with acts of nobility. If you presume power and position imply the claim of higher station, then its pretty close to the biblical quote.
Basically. Nobless Oblige was my high school motto. It was synonymized with the biblical quote: "to whom much is given much is expected" although that's not absolutely precise. Its closest historical meaning is your last sentence: a claim of nobility should be backed up with acts of nobility. If you presume power and position imply the claim of higher station, then its pretty close to the biblical quote.
Yeah I can relate but I'm still trying to figure out a little bit more about the human psyche. It's a like a math equation where 2+2 can equal anything from 1 to 9687 trillion. :p Stick 1,000 with a pin you'd get different reactions some may be the same but all reactions wont be the same even though the pin and the act of sticking is constant. Hell, stick a person more than once and within that one person their reaction may be different with each prick, one time they may jerk a little to the left, the next they may jerk a little to the right.What you give, and what most people need, is hope. You have been through very tough situations and came out on top. That gives them hope that they, too, can make it through their situations as well. And having been through those tough situations, they feel that you actually do understand what they're going through. Even if it's not exactly the same situation they are going through.
Not to mention sometimes I can be a little blunt, too blunt for my own good in some cases but definately (hopefully) not as ruthlessly blunt as I seen some people be without regards to the human emotion and while it works for some people it probably dont work for all and havent yet figured out to accurately read which methods works best. Sometimes people need the blunt truth, sometimes they just need words of encouragement, and sometimes they just need a hug literal or proverbial to show them that someone still care about their feelings and thoughts and value their contributions. And sometimes in text I cant tell which of those is appropriate.
But people in real life do share alot of stuff about what is bothering them, everyone from friends to complete strangers with topics that range from finance relationships to losing a pet or addiction or "rust on the tools." Many occassion a five minute trip to the gas station turned into a 1-2 hour trip because some random guy come up to me talking about a problem in life he has and how he/she is trying to deal with it. It seems that most of the time people just want someone to listen to them. To vent a little bit. And I guess I have that approachable look. And for many even the poor and homeless I can relate to them. I had times in the past that I wondered what is next, but I also conqoured my problems. Do I still get invaded by problems sometimes of the ones I already defeated? Yep, I'm only human but each time they are easier to beat. Thus all I can share is what I did to get to that point and past that obstacle, big or small, it's still an obstacle nonetheless and share a method that worked for me. It may not work for them as well or may work better for them but hopefully it gives them a starting point on the path that wish to be on.
have either of you thought about counseling? With your first hand life experiences, I'm sure you would be able to relate to those with issues that need help much easier than someone like me. Not that I'm a councilor. My most recent field was Security. And my B.S. is in I.T. I've also heard all the jokes about that too.
And my B.S. is in I.T.A lot of people's BS is in IT.
I've also heard all the jokes about that too. :PDarn.
I have thought about it actually. I love to help people and I hate when people are struggling and my ultimate goal is to make people feel as comfortable as possible around me. I am on the same page as JaguarX though. I could give people solutions to my problems. But most the time I have noticed the only person who can help some one is them self. In the end I decided to be a musician, always been my dream and I figured I wouldn't waste my second chance. I also tend to lose clarity too and lose my temper like I did earlier in the post, and as a counselor you are there to help them. The strange thing is strangers tend to open up to me WAY more then they should lol. A few weeks ago, I won't get too into to it, but a gas station clerk I have never met before was talking about her dog(I was buying a cheapo stuffed animal for my dog to destroy) and it went from talking about how great dogs are to something WAY crazier and WAY darker (No, not that). I just stood there dumbfounded at such a huge bombshell that some people don't even tell their spouses.
I teach music though and in a way I am giving people something that they can use to change their life. To quote E-Dubble "I keep my faith, not religion, but music. It has given me the oppurtunity to put 100% into something that is true to me" Basically sums up how I feel about music. If I can pass that on to at least one other person. Its all worth it.
Sorry a bit off the OP.
I have thought about it actually. I love to help people and I hate when people are struggling and my ultimate goal is to make people feel as comfortable as possible around me. I am on the same page as JaguarX though. I could give people solutions to my problems. But most the time I have noticed the only person who can help some one is them self. In the end I decided to be a musician, always been my dream and I figured I wouldn't waste my second chance. I also tend to lose clarity too and lose my temper like I did earlier in the post, and as a counselor you are there to help them. The strange thing is strangers tend to open up to me WAY more then they should lol. A few weeks ago, I won't get too into to it, but a gas station clerk I have never met before was talking about her dog(I was buying a cheapo stuffed animal for my dog to destroy) and it went from talking about how great dogs are to something WAY crazier and WAY darker (No, not that). I just stood there dumbfounded at such a huge bombshell that some people don't even tell their spouses.Music can be very therapeutic.
I teach music though and in a way I am giving people something that they can use to change their life. To quote E-Dubble "I keep my faith, not religion, but music. It has given me the oppurtunity to put 100% into something that is true to me" Basically sums up how I feel about music. If I can pass that on to at least one other person. Its all worth it.
Sorry a bit off the OP.
A lot of people's BS is in IT.I knew you'd come through for me. :)
Darn.
Nice one.
I'm a musician as well first and foremost - guitar for the most part.
It helps me focus on the good and the bad - and be creative all at the same time :)
Nice one.
I'm a musician as well first and foremost - guitar for the most part.
It helps me focus on the good and the bad - and be creative all at the same time :)
One day I'm going to buy a good guitar, after I get this house, and learn how to play.
I recommend everyone at least try to learn an instrument in their life time. Its not for everyone but anyone could do it if that makes sense. Its getting good that is the hard part :POne of these days I'm actually going to pick up that bass guitar I have sitting in my basement and learn how to play it. Reading and playing music I can do just fine, but it's a matter of the mechanics of getting fingers to do what they need to do to get the right notes.
But going off half-cocked, spewing hatred and vitriol over EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE that you can find that is even REMOTELY related to games, NCsoft, City, having fun, etc.... THAT IS RIDICULOUS AND UNNECESSARY.
They do not want, nor have any opinion at all about your forgiveness. However, there is no negative outcome to NCSoft when members of the community project the appearance of raving lunatics in public. At best that has no effect. At worst, it helps to marginalize the CoH player community in a way that makes it easier for NCSoft.
In every narrative there has to be a good guy and a bad guy. For most of the gaming community, the good guy will tend to be the players rather than the game publisher. However, if you make yourself a bad guy, that automatically makes NCSoft the good guy. That is not a matter of debate. That is a fact of life you have to decide to account for or ignore when deciding the degree to which you are compelled to voice your hatred of NCSoft in venues where that is not the topic of discussion.
The most negative consequence we can possible generate for NCSoft would be to actually stick together and launch an actual game that then becomes successful (for some definition of successful) and use that success as a priori proof NCSoft erred in shutting down the game. This would be proof the community was worth saving and the game was worth saving, and NCSoft was clearly inadequate to the task. We have no power over NCSoft whatsoever at this point, and pretending we do is like pretending if we splash hard enough we can stop the tide from coming in. What we need is ammunition. A long-term independent community and a successful launch of a spiritual successor would provide that ammunition.
Without it, we're firing squirt guns in the faces of people on the train while screaming NCSoft's name. There is exactly zero chance any of those people will blame NCSoft for that. In a just world perhaps you'd shout to the world the improprieties of NCSoft and the whole world would rally to your side. We don't live in that world. You can't make NCSoft suffer and you can't get them to ask for your forgiveness. The only thing you can do - MAYBE - is make them regret their decision. And there exists only one way for that to happen: they have to see, entirely on their own, that the value of what they gave up is higher than they wanted to give up. And the only way to do that is to make it overwhelmingly more valuable. And the only way to contribute to that is to keep the community alive and vibrant, and support the efforts of the people trying to create a spiritual successor game.
It won't kill NCSoft. But it will sting.
Nice. Guitar is my main instrument as well.I played the viola in the 4th grade. Then I picked u the trumpet.
I recommend everyone at least try to learn an instrument in their life time. Its not for everyone but anyone could do it if that makes sense. Its getting good that is the hard part :P
But it can add a lot clarity in your life. Mind and body have to meet together at the same time, its really quite zen. After a period of frustration.
There is a lot of things in the world that wouldn't make sense to me even in a million years. But music, that makes perfect sense to me. So I try to encourage others to give it a try.
Very fair point Tony V. That is why I wish for those companies to go their own direction or have at the very least a buyout like Arenanet does. I don't want those companies to under go hardships and I want them as far away from NCSoft as possible, not shutdown or to fail for their associations I just want people to take that approach instead of "They work with NCSoft let them burn."
Again, fair point. I can see how it would come off that way. I still have hope for CoH, I still want to fight and I really do think NCSoft should acknowledge their mistakes and learn from it. I would love game companies to stop pushing around their customers as well. I just want to make sure we don't become the monsters we are fighting, and I don't want us to stoop to their level.
I would like to see NCSoft pay for what they have done, I would. But I just cant help but think of all the people who would be getting hurt so much more then the people who actually were behind the CoH shutdown. I am thinking of the mail room people, the receptionist, the interns etc etc.
I hope our efforts here do change the way publishers think they can treat people. I just don't want people being caught in the crossfire who literally didn't do anything but have a bad employer.
If we are going to be the community that tries and change the way publishers and gaming companies act. Then we need to lead by example.
Gaming companies learn they can't treat their customers/fans this way, and also that there isn't a bunch of collateral damage.
More importantly though that restaurant would close because of its poor service and food, the same way eventually NCsoft will close because of their poor service.
You say you spent time in prison over what you claim was a pretty bad wrap. But would it be fair to you to say that you should had seen your time in prison as a sacrifice so that $20,000 lawyer and whatever staff he hires had jobs, and that your time and freedom were a necessary sacrifice to that end?
When you protest something, or boycott it or whatever... nobody like wants people to lose their jobs. Heck, most of us don't even want the guys at the top to be miserable. But that doesn't mean that a business or politician or whatever should be able to throw up their janitorial staff as a minimal wage human shield that allows them to do whatever it is they want to do to you.
You say you spent time in prison over what you claim was a pretty bad wrap. But would it be fair to you to say that you should had seen your time in prison as a sacrifice so that $20,000 lawyer and whatever staff he hires had jobs, and that your time and freedom were a necessary sacrifice to that end?
Probably not. At some point your own needs have to be considered too.
Again, I would be to presume that your $20,000 lawyer and the justice department that screwed you hires plenty of clerks, mail room people, receptionists, interns etc, that would probably be out of work in a perfect system that makes no mistakes too. But it still didn't seem like a great deal for you.
At the end of the day, especially with how modern companies are set up to distance themselves from their customers personally, the only way to 'change' how they think they they can treat people are through either changing where our money as their customers goes, or changing the rules of business legally (or through violence, but I don't think anybody here would argue that's remotely appropriate).
You want our efforts to do one thing, and give us no way to do it. Positive and negative publicity only matters to them insofar as it's a gateway to new sales.
How would you figure we would change the way they act? If we lead by example and got, let's optimistically say 100% of all gaming customers on Earth to do what we wanted by our example... what exactly would we do with them.
Except if we continue to buy as if nothing happened, and in the same confidence we had before CoH was closed as if nothing happened, they don't learn that. They actually learn the opposite. They learn that as long as either we're apathetic enough to accept anything then they can do whatever they want.
Good customer service isn't something companies do because they like you. It's something they do because they want you to be their customer in the future, or to not tell your friends to avoid them.
Maybe that was different when you had to personally see the face of every employee you hired and every customer that you served, because basic human decency played a factor, but at this point you are a number on a sheet.
If they serve us a quality product with a smile and we pay them, and then they spit on us and serve a dog turd in a box and we pay them the same, we'll continue to get the latter.
It would only close due to poor service if we presume that everybody else in the world doesn't act like you. If we presume everybody in the world acts like you, it won't close because eventually you'll get hungry and have to eat somewhere.
You're basically saying "I don't have to be picky with my purchasing habits because enough other people more conscientious of the situation will resolve it without my hands getting dirty".
But, pray tell, if we all took your advice, if say you could convince everybody to do as you do, what exactly would cause NCSoft's restaurant to fail? Remember, we're all going to continue eating there so that NCSoft doesn't execute its hostage waitstaff. That sounds pretty good for business, at least for NCSoft.
You say you spent time in prison over what you claim was a pretty bad wrap. But would it be fair to you to say that you should had seen your time in prison as a sacrifice so that $20,000 lawyer and whatever staff he hires had jobs, and that your time and freedom were a necessary sacrifice to that end?
But that doesn't mean that a business or politician or whatever should be able to throw up their janitorial staff as a minimal wage human shield that allows them to do whatever it is they want to do to you.
How would you figure we would change the way they act? If we lead by example and got, let's optimistically say 100% of all gaming customers on Earth to do what we wanted by our example... what exactly would we do with them.
You want our efforts to do one thing, and give us no way to do it. Positive and negative publicity only matters to them insofar as it's a gateway to new sales.
At some point your own needs have to be considered too
But would it be fair to you to say that you should had seen your time in prison as a sacrifice so that $20,000 lawyer and whatever staff he hires had jobs, and that your time and freedom were a necessary sacrifice to that end?
But, pray tell, if we all took your advice, if say you could convince everybody to do as you do, what exactly would cause NCSoft's restaurant to fail? Remember, we're all going to continue eating there so that NCSoft doesn't execute its hostage waitstaff. That sounds pretty good for business, at least for NCSoft.
You're basically saying "I don't have to be picky with my purchasing habits because enough other people more conscientious of the situation will resolve it without my hands getting dirty".
It would only close due to poor service if we presume that everybody else in the world doesn't act like you. If we presume everybody in the world acts like you, it won't close because eventually you'll get hungry and have to eat somewhere.
But, pray tell, if we all took your advice, if say you could convince everybody to do as you do, what exactly would cause NCSoft's restaurant to fail? Remember, we're all going to continue eating there so that NCSoft doesn't execute its hostage waitstaff. That sounds pretty good for business, at least for NCSoft.Seriously, this got under my skin I could see how you are getting that message but you can't honestly believe that I think no one should ever do anything out of fear of hurting someone. You have taken me saying "Consider the consequences of your action or what you hope to do with that those actions" and turned it into some bubblewrapped never step on anyone's toes world.
To clarify, I didn't go to prison. I got lucky. A new DA hoped on the case near the end of the year and when reviewing it decided "This is bogus why is he even in the courts?"
But D.A's don't like to be wrong or dismiss cases so he gave me a plea bargain and not wanting to spend another $20,000 for trail plus the $10,000 court fine I decided I would just take it and seal my record when I was finished.
But I guess its good the whole world doesn't think like me, we would have really long lines.So, you're the guy that holds up the drive-thru. :P
I actually used the whole BS IT thing in a presentation I gave in college once.
"I may not actually know a lot about Information Technology. But with a Bachelors of Science degree, I could BS IT as well as anyone."
Even after three and a half year of presentations, I till hate "public speaking".
Also, one thing I recommend to people who have to give presentations: Conference Presentation Judo (http://perl.plover.com/yak/presentation/). Or for the reading-challenged: video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_Tsom5hI98).
I hate waiting for my turn. Once I start talking, I'm fine.
Step 1: Don't wear a too tight tank top to give a serious presentation.
I've been doing public presentations for almost twenty years now. The truth is I get stage fright every single time. But nowadays, its like how Johnny Rico describes a drop in Starship Troopers. He gets the shakes when he's waiting in the pod, but once its fired from the ship the shakes stop. If something happens on the way down, it will kill him instantly so that's not worth worrying about, and once he hits the ground his training takes over and he's fine.
I hate waiting for my turn. Once I start talking, I'm fine.
Also, one thing I recommend to people who have to give presentations: Conference Presentation Judo (http://perl.plover.com/yak/presentation/). Or for the reading-challenged: video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_Tsom5hI98). Amusingly, I first starting giving serious professional presenatations back in 1996, two years before Mark Dominus claims he began. By 2000, two years before he gave this presentation, I had figured out basically all those tricks, out of necessity. Its interesting to me that it took me the same four to five years to learn the same things. Makes me think that maybe we should be teaching this to people so they don't have to reinvent them.
When giving presentations - which happened a lot in the last few years of college - I always tried to be the first one to speak. If I do well, I'm golden. People will remember a strong start to the presentations, and I might even get some kudos for being so well-prepared. It being seen as the "more responsible" thing to be ready sooner (and so many pushing for the end spot) only helps me further.My favorite slot: just before lunch. I can listen to the previous speakers and adjust my presentation to play off of them on the fly: people end up remembering what I said about what they said more than they remember what they said. Its attention-theft, and I have no problem being a presentation ninja. And I've found its better than last slot of the day because people are tired at the end of the day. Some even sneak out and leave before the end.
If I don't do so well, I have the excuse of having less time to polish than the guys who come later. By the time the presentations are done, too, everyone is likely to have forgotten my lackluster performance.
Either way, it's over with. While I don't hate speaking in public, it's nice to be able to sit back, relax, and watch the others without having preparation running around the back of my mind the whole time.
This rule changes if you're competing with the other speaker(s) for the approbation of the audience. In that case, try to go last. Not only will this give you the opportunity, if it's an open speaking session, to hear what the other guy(s) say and tailor your talk to redress anything that you think is a weakness of theirs or that you're not strong against with the current format, but more importantly, the last speaker is the one everybody remembers most while they're making their decision.
My method rules now.I have a ton of rules, but my top recommended rules are:
Unless you have a brass band or strippers (or both),I'd bring my lunch with me and get there early just to get a good seat.
I have a ton of rules, but my top recommended rules are:I rarely actually practice giving a presentation. But, having written the paper, reviewed the paper, and put the power point together, I know the material that I'm going to be presenting. I have never read my presentation to the class either. I find that if I "prepare" too much before hand, I tend to screw up more.
1. Always practice what you're going to say out loud. Practice in your head is worthless. Your ears must hear what you are trying to say.
2. Never deliver a presentation by rote. Practice is to give you a safety net so you have something to say. Speak what you think, not what you've written.
3. Slides are for augmentation. If you can't deliver your presentation without them, your presentation is broken.I wholeheartedly agree. Slides are there to get the bullet point into view, not the entire presentation. If I use a graphic background for the slides, they usually will have something to do with the subject matter, and are unobtrusive. I want the text to be what catches the eye. But, plain text on a white background is boring. Learned that from my Comm 101 instructor. ;)
4. Never do worthless things just because you think you need to. Classic example: "I don't know if you guys can read this slide, but down here it says..." Having a slide no one can read is a classic example of someone doing something because they think they are supposed to (have a slide with a ton of text on it) that is worthless. If it doesn't help deliver the presentation, lose it. If you want to give the audience a ton of text, send them a book after.
5. Be yourself. Unless you're an actor, in which case by definition being yourself means you like to pretend to be other people. If you're not, trying to be more serious, more funny, more interesting, more anything than you really are is going to look stupid. It never works.In my case, I act like a guy who isn't all that uncomfortable giving presentations. It seems to work well for me. :P
I've been doing public presentations for almost twenty years now. The truth is I get stage fright every single time. But nowadays, its like how Johnny Rico describes a drop in Starship Troopers. He gets the shakes when he's waiting in the pod, but once its fired from the ship the shakes stop. If something happens on the way down, it will kill him instantly so that's not worth worrying about, and once he hits the ground his training takes over and he's fine.
I hate waiting for my turn. Once I start talking, I'm fine.
I couldn't care less about CoH being shut down.
Fixed that for you :)I think he had said it correctly. He could actually care less, which means that he actually cared that CoH was shut down.
I could care less about CoH being shut down.I could care a whole lot less.
I think he had said it correctly. He could actually care less, which means that he actually cared that CoH was shut down.
One of these days I'm actually going to pick up that bass guitar I have sitting in my basement and learn how to play it. Reading and playing music I can do just fine, but it's a matter of the mechanics of getting fingers to do what they need to do to get the right notes.
It's an inside joke TT - at my expense I hasten to add, although I'm having a chuckle at it :)Hard to tell with a text based medium. ;)
First day of Speech class, they told us: rehearse your speech. It's a lot longer than you think it is, so time yourself and run through it, then make adjust ments etc.People stubbornly, almost religiously believe that if they basically think about their speech in their heads that's good enough.
This was good advice, and allowed me to actually give a five minute speech when the instructor was asking for a 5 minute speech.
NO ONE ELSE did this. So, instead of a five minute speech, they gave twenty+ minute speeches and HAHAHAHA. And did they learn by doing this once, and then thinking "Dang, that could have been a lot shorter!"? No, all semester and in every other class I had to speak in, I saw the same prolongation of agony by people who simply refused to rehearse. Oh well! lol....
People stubbornly, almost religiously believe that if they basically think about their speech in their heads that's good enough.How does all of that relate to writing your speech? Or, writing anything for that matter.
There is a fundamental difference between thinking it and hearing it, even when its your own speech. You see this all the time in many arenas. People will describe a problem to you and then immediately figure out the answer. Thinking about it failed, but just the act of speaking the problem aloud engaged a completely different part of their brains - the part related to communication rather than musing, and more importantly both the part related to speaking and the part related to listening. Research pretty conclusively states that our brains are not as integrated as we think they are: consciousness itself is a deception on the part of the parts of the brain. People with certain brain injuries, particularly to the corpus callosum, often show clear evidence that personality and cognitive traits are localized. What we hear is processed differently than what we speak and what we think.
Auditory rehearsal engages thinking, speaking, and listening simultaneously. Its using more of the brain to process your presentation. We learn from an early age to be critical of the information we hear. We are less critical of the information we think. When we think a presentation, its like singing a song in your head: you always sound fantastic. But when we speak it out loud to ourselves, the critical part of the brain we normally use to dissect what other people tell us is turned loose on our own speech. It can often find errors, mistakes, omissions, and just plain goofiness in our presentations our internal thoughts can't. We only know what it will sound like if we listen to it: there is no way to simulate that with internal thought short of years of practice, and even then.
I would bet deaf people encounter a similar situation between thinking a thought and signing a thought in front of a mirror or in their field of vision. The part of their brain normally looking for "gotchas" when other people communicate with them has a better chance finding mistakes in their own signing than their own internal thinking, because that's where they have the most practice at it.
Pick that bass up! It's so much fun. Just learn the notes on the neck and if you know chords from playing guitar you'll be playing sooo quickly. Takes time to get those fills and runs but it's so worth it. I'm a chick bassist in a praise band, a really good one, and bassists simply not only provide that much needed bottom line and rhythm, we secretly control the group. Yes, don't tell the lead guitarist or vocalist, but when they start off too slow it's bass woman to the rescue, bringing that tempo up. (One of these days I want to get the t-shirt that says "Yes. I'm a woman. Yes, I play bass. Any questions?")
Best thing about the bass? I only have to tune 4 strings, compared to my hammered dulcimer, which has 88!I love those things. All 8 octaves right in yo face! Not to mention all the micro-tones you can pop off with those bad boys.
One of these days I'm actually going to pick up that bass guitar I have sitting in my basement and learn how to play itIndeed you should, if you can read music alright and if I remember trombone is bass cleft(Haven't arranged in awhile) so you that part is already out of the way. And the rest of is just all arpeggio's for beginners, if you are like me and have normal hands you can try a smaller bass. Some of those things are huge and just require huge hands to play.
How does all of that relate to writing your speech? Or, writing anything for that matter.Writing it down seems to have a similar benefit, but it usually takes longer for most people to write a speech than speak one. Moreover many people write differently than they speak, which makes writing unsuitable as a form of rehearsal.
I never practiced my presentations, but I did write everything down that I was going to talk about.
My problem was never going long with a speech. Just the opposite. Same with my essays and papers.It is a separate, tricky skill to figure out how to pick a topic such that a presentation of that topic that neither radically omits major elements nor pads with unnecessary information clocks in at a specific time. But its something that is very important to professional public presentations. When presenting information in a private meeting or something, length is rarely a major issue. But in public presentations you're generally given a speaking slot and expected to neither overrun the slot nor short the slot by too much. So its something worth practicing just as much as all the other skills related to presentations.
I seem to be able to get all the pertinent information across in about half the pages that most everyone else did.
I got lower grades a few times because of that. But, I just find it very difficult to pad an informational paper with fluff, and I hate to repeat myself in a paper.
Twisted, you might well be talented enough to give a speech and have it be correct, the first time you recite.Its also true that no one knows how good or bad their presentations are until they are forced to watch them on video. That's when the perfect presentation starts to look very imperfect indeed. I've often cringed at video recordings of presentations for which I got pretty good feedback - people tend to grade on a curve when it comes to public presentations, just because so many are really bad. But that doesn't mean you can't get better by seeing what you do wrong and trying consciously to fix it.
I can tell you, I went to school with no one that talented. Instead of meeting the requirements, they prolonged their agonies for tens of minutes, often causing scheduling problems - because when 25+ people are supposed to give a 5 minute speech and most of them end up rattling on for 20+ minutes, you can imagine.
So while you have a system that works for you, in the main practicing one's speeches will stand the average person in very good stead. Worked for me.
The weird thing for me is that even when I speak it out loud to an empty room, if I go talk to somebody about it, I can often come up with a solution when the empty room didn't help. There is something about having the other person, even if it's just the facial cues that tell us where we need to elaborate, that at least helps ME out.When it comes to problem solving specifically, I think there's a difference between talking to yourself and talking to someone else, because your consciously or unconsciously attempting to translate the problem for someone else in the latter case. For some people, that translation can happen to a pretend-audience that isn't there, and for other people it only happens when there is a conscious target to translate for.
On the other hand, there are two ways to give a speech: prepare one, or speak extemporaneously. The former, you should always rehearse. The latter, you should make sure you're an expert on the subject. The latter requires speaking from the heart and mind at once. Both can be effective, but which works for you will depend on your own thought patterns. Speeches that are prepared ahead of time take practice to get into the right tempo and time. Extemporaneous speeches require deep, passionate familiarity with the subject matter, but will go as long as they need to because your points will be rapid-fire and concise with ever more elaboration as you loop back around to them.That's true to a point, but I will note that preparation is a presentation strategy. Impromptu speech is not. No amount of passion or expertise guarantees that someone will be an effective speaker on any subject. To deliver such a presentation requires *both* deep knowledge *and* innate eloquence. The vast overwhelming majority of humans do not possess the latter.
Its also true that no one knows how good or bad their presentations are until they are forced to watch them on video. That's when the perfect presentation starts to look very imperfect indeed. I've often cringed at video recordings of presentations for which I got pretty good feedback - people tend to grade on a curve when it comes to public presentations, just because so many are really bad. But that doesn't mean you can't get better by seeing what you do wrong and trying consciously to fix it.
In terms of time, the hardest presentation windows in my opinion are the ten minute presentation, the forty-five minute presentation, and the two hour presentation. They seem to be the intervals that are the hardest to stay on target for. The easiest are the fifteen minute presentation, half hour presentation and the one hour presentation.
(Those are real time windows I've been asked to present for. The seven minute or 21 minute presentation might be harder, but no one is asked to give those usually)
And yes, unless you are a gifted and experienced speaker, I always recommend audible rehearsal. I know no one personally that doesn't or wouldn't benefit from it. I know people who can deliver without it, but that's not the same thing as saying they wouldn't be better with it, if they did it often enough to incorporate it into their routine (any disruption of routine can temporarily make things worse).
I never actually gotten or found anyone where I could do an audible rehearsal and have it help with my presentation.If you never pause to fumble for the right words to say, never "uh, umm, err" in the middle of sentences, never have to stare at a slide to remember where you are in a presentation, then rehearsal is less likely to help you.
I love how this thread has turned into "How to speak in front of an crowd". Not complaining because it keeps me entertained (and I am learning alot about the subject). :)The thread started with an implied question of whether the community is what it was. I'm pretty sure this thread proves it is what it always was, although it also proves one of the things it always was was scatter-brained.
The thread started with an implied question of whether the community is what it was. I'm pretty sure this thread proves it is what it always was, although it also proves one of the things it always was was scatter-brained.Aw, I knew my posts fit in somehow.
If you never pause to fumble for the right words to say, never "uh, umm, err" in the middle of sentences, never have to stare at a slide to remember where you are in a presentation, then rehearsal is less likely to help you.
Its also significantly more likely you're a robot or have a significant memory disorder. It is so rare for humans to have the set of qualities necessary to conduct presentations without rehearsal and without significant glitches that its more likely you'll meet a secret service ninja astronaut than you'll meet someone with them.
Rehearsal doesn't guarantee a good performance, it simply increases the probability the speaker will not make mistakes that rehearsal can eliminate. And in a certain sense, anyone who says rehearsal cannot help them is saying that no matter how many times they deliver a presentation they will never get any better.
Writing it down seems to have a similar benefit, but it usually takes longer for most people to write a speech than speak one. Moreover many people write differently than they speak, which makes writing unsuitable as a form of rehearsal.For the most part, I do talk the same way I write. Fortunately, writing lets me take back something that I really shouldn't say out-loud, before I post it out-loud.
If you never pause to fumble for the right words to say, never "uh, umm, err" in the middle of sentences, never have to stare at a slide to remember where you are in a presentation, then rehearsal is less likely to help you.Those were some of the first things my Comm 101 instructor told us to avoid doing like the plague.
Not to mention as I said in an earlier post, I routinely have to give presentations at the drop of a dime because the original presenter either chickens out or not available. And I still can give good presentations even in those conditions because I know the information.
1. As previously mentioned, saying rehearsal generally helps is not the same thing as saying preparing solely by rehearsal is a good idea. In fact, I explicitly state that you should *not* rehearse to memorize a rote speech. That's not the purpose of rehearsal. The purpose is actually to a) generate familiar pathways to constructing expressible grammar from concepts, providing a safety net against aphasia, and b) to gain familiarity and comfort with delivering the material to give leeway in presenting the material with more flexibility and c) to increase the ability for self-editing to involve the hearing-based language centers of the brain, something that essentially no human being is capable of doing any other way.
Experience and deep knowledge of the material. And the ability to step outside myself and give an honest critique hence learning to grow without havign to depend on people that may not have time interest or availability to help me rehearse. But many people dont have the ability to be honest withthemselves. Doesnt mean I think I cant get better, I just found a way to get better that works for my situation. There is millions of ways to get better and rehearsal is not the only one.
Not to mention as I said in an earlier post, I routinely have to give presentations at the drop of a dime because the original presenter either chickens out or not available. And I still can give good presentations even in those conditions because I know the information. Too many times have I seen people who cant present in tight schedules because they beleive the only prep method is rehearsal and thus say "I cant, I didnt have time to rehearse." Eventually people stopped goign to them and come straight to me because I say yes and ask a few questions, like how long is my time slot and what is the title. Get out there do my thing and collect my rewards afterwards. Sometimes rehearsal is not an option. The live presentation IS the rehearsal and one shot to do it. Thus, that is why I depend less on rehearsal because I know my job. As you said, ya right rehearsal is no gurantee of good presentation. I seen people rehearse something but have no idea or understanding what they are talking about and get out there and do well, that is, until someone asks a question and they go deer in headlights. It wasnt in the script they rehearsed and thus they have no idea what to do. They are lost. Then I seen some people who just have no business giving a live presentation yet and probably should practice in one manner or another or learn the material better.
But as I said, rehearsal does nothign if cant find people that know how to give any sort of feedback that is helpful for anyone above 2nd grade level speech class. And thus I just adapted.
My Comm 101 instructor just loved to pass the "hat of topics" and have us do a 5 minute speech on a random topic.The problem I have with those assignments is not that I don't think they are useful - they are - its that rarely have I seen instructors explain to their students why they are useful. I've even met instructors that don't *know* why they are useful or have an incorrect opinion on why they are useful.
My Comm 101 instructor just loved to pass the "hat of topics" and have us do a 5 minute speech on a random topic.
My Comm 101 instructor just loved to pass the "hat of topics" and have us do a 5 minute speech on a random topic. Whether we knew anything about the subject or not.
I absolutely hated that part of the class. I guess I got an early start on my BSing in that class. :P
She also loved going to Toastmaster meetings.
How does all of that relate to writing your speech? Or, writing anything for that matter.
I never practiced my presentations, but I did write everything down that I was going to talk about.
I put them in order, and put down the main points. Much like I did for the presentation slides, just more of of it.
My problem was never going long with a speech. Just the opposite. Same with my essays and papers.
I seem to be able to get all the pertinent information across in about half the pages that most everyone else did.
I got lower grades a few times because of that. But, I just find it very difficult to pad an informational paper with fluff, and I hate to repeat myself in a paper.
...I won't even get started on poetry units and why I wrote a protest poem during the inevitable "write a poem" assignment in my Junior year.In our AP Lit class, we had a group of guys that spent more time in the computer lab than they did anywhere else. When we had to write poems, they took a few well-known examples from some very well-known authors, picked apart the pattern of nouns, verb, adjectives, etc. in each and wrote a program to randomly substitute words and write their poems for them. They didn't reveal any of that to our teacher until after they'd all been given A's on the assignment. Fortunately, she was a good sport and found all of that amusing, so she let them keep the grades.
I used to hate essays. Not because I was bad at them, but because I knew they were largely a waste of my time. I got As on them because I could BS my way through them while barely engaging my brain and only having skimmed listening to the teacher's views on whatever the subject was. I rarely actually read the (atrociously boring) novels that were "high art" to my High School English teachers; most of the time, they were more interested in the (not-political-at-all-honest) "point" of them, and would "interpret" them at length to make sure we had our minds right about the wisdom inherent in the words.True story: I passed a freshman college level English course writing essays about five required reading books I hadn't actually read. Got a B-. I don't recommend it, but that was a weird semester for me. Somehow through a computer error I ended up registered for seven classes and I missed the drop date to adjust my schedule.
So I'd regurgitate that in proper American English prose, and get an A.
Annoyed the heck out of me, because it meant there was no point to actually understanding the work; it was a test of whether you agreed with (or could remember) the teacher's self-important view of their own analysis.
(I did have one honestly good English teacher in high school. Not all of them are as bad as I paint here. But too many of them are. ...I won't even get started on poetry units and why I wrote a protest poem during the inevitable "write a poem" assignment in my Junior year.)
More than half the professional writing I encounter I would consider proof of illiteracy.Things I have actually written in comments during formal documentation reviews:
While quibbling over grammar minutia is silly, the notion that linguistic accuracy and precision isn't important is a luxury only afforded to people who live in environments where nobody cares what they say or hear.Sounds like the internet, for the most part. :P
I have had to take "personality" tests for some of the jobs I've held in the past. I can understand the reason that some companies would use them. Unfortunately, some of the questions are rather vague, and incriminating no matter how you read them. I really wish I could leave notes next to each of the questions that I have issues with. Unfortunately, that would mean I'd be leaving little notes next to about 90% of the questions. And they don't give me that much space for note writing.
I had a question last year which asked, basically, "what are the implicit requirements for X" and the answer options were all requirements listed explicitly as requirements. I later found out based on looking at sample tests with alternate questions that the most likely error was that the test writer meant what are the immediate requirements for X. Which still makes no sense, but in the context of other questions suggested an answer: one of the options was a prerequisite for installation while the others were supported recommendations that did not prevent installation.
Sounds like the internet, for the most part. :P
At the U of Arizona, to take upper-level writing courses, students have to take an exam known as the UDWPE (Upper Division Writing Proficiency Exam). It's a Pass/Fail/Superior scoring (or at least it was when I took it), and is almost ridiculously simple for anyone with half a brain. I took it while stoned on cold medication, got my P, and was satisfied.
Later on in my undergrad career, I enrolled in an upper-level writing course where my professor INSISTED that we must write drafts of our papers prior to submission.
I don't do drafts. And since I had a full load of classes and then some, I was not about to waste my time doing my papers multiple times. (Especially since by then I was working as a freelance editor - I can count on one hand the number of spelling mistakes I've made in my academic papers.) So I went to the professor and argued that I was not going to do drafts just for him.
He asked for proof. I handed him my UDWPE test results and said, "The university thinks I know how to write. Therefore I shouldn't have to prove it to you."
I was the only student in the class exempt from drafts.
At the end of the semester, our assignment was: "Choosing a Greco/Roman myth that has NOT been covered in this class, write it in the style of the Greco/Roman author of your choice." I chose to re-tell the story of "The Judgment of Paris" in the style of Aristophanes. Including stage directions. (And it was, as always, a first and only draft.) The professor loved it so much, he requested permission to include it in future classes.
I love being right.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
I did a comparative mythology course as my elective, and one of our assignments was similar - write a "new" myth in the style of one of the cultures covered. So I wrote a Greco/Roman style myth to explain the colour of the sunset in a Norse style. I got extra marks for showing off language skills by using terms both classical Latin and Old Norse. Wish I could find a copy of it.
But I think the pinnacle of my writing efforts came as a result of a professor, whom I had a class with every semester of my enrolment, wanting proof that I was the one who wrote the paper that had been handed in with my name, because all of the papers that I'd written had several of the same basic mistakes, and this one not only lacked those errors, had an extremely divergent use of language. Or in other words, a large boost in quality.
I'd gone from "Bored Academic" to "Masterful Storyteller" in as little as five months. I can fully attribute my involvement in the school's major drama production for the change, because I took responsibility for my own education, after spending two and a half years only doing it because I'd started doing it, and was obviously expected to finish. Or in other words, a self-inflicted barrier interfering with my ability to effectively use my own intelligence was torn down.
I shall forever remember the reaction of my professor when he realized what I had managed to do, as the advice he gave me has allowed me to do things I didn't think possible. It is rare for a teacher to succeed in the goal of making a student actually want to learn, let alone making a student want to help others learn. This professor did more than that. He made me understand.
A great teacher can only go so far though. The student(s) have to have a willingness to learn. Some students are almost aggressive in their willingness not to learn.
I most sincerely hope the poor man didn't have a drastic collapse! He is PROOF that a Great teacher can do more than they think they do for students. As such they are far more precious then platinum.
I most sincerely hope the poor man didn't have a drastic collapse! He is PROOF that a Great teacher can do more than they think they do for students. As such they are far more precious then platinum.
I have had to take "personality" tests for some of the jobs I've held in the past. I can understand the reason that some companies would use them. Unfortunately, some of the questions are rather vague, and incriminating no matter how you read them. I really wish I could leave notes next to each of the questions that I have issues with. Unfortunately, that would mean I'd be leaving little notes next to about 90% of the questions. And they don't give me that much space for note writing.
A great teacher can only go so far though. The student(s) have to have a willingness to learn. Some students are almost aggressive in their willingness not to learn.
More than half the professional writing I encounter I would consider proof of illiteracy. This has real consequences. For example, as most people with experience in them will tell you, in most standardized certification exams you have to presume a certain amount of questions will be lost due to the question being worded in a way that makes it impossible to answer on its face, and impossible to determine with certainty what the intent was.
On the subject of personality tests: Back in the 80s it was common for Dianetics aka Scientologists to ask people in public to take them for some vague generic stated purpose or other (of course, it was for recruiting), and it wasn't as much common knowledge then as now what the gist of it was. So I didn't have a lot of knowledge of Dianetics/Scientology, but I did dislike a) being solicited in public and b) being tested. So one day I decided to "volunteer" to take their test. And I studied the test very carefully to see what the questions were aiming for. And I specifically answered the questions in such a way that a) the answers passed their validation screening and yet b) put me dead center in every category.
I can still remember the person who administered the test looking over the scores and telling me that I was ... and then couldn't find anything I was.
But I have to say that even when I take these tests honestly, I find myself genuinely struggling to justify specific slants in one direction or the other. Take Meyer-Briggs. Here's one test's set of possible criteria for Extrovert/Introvert:
Extraverted Characteristics:
Act first, think/reflect later
Feel deprived when cutoff from interaction with the outside world
Usually open to and motivated by outside world of people and things
Enjoy wide variety and change in people relationships
Introverted Characteristics:
Think/reflect first, then Act
Regularly require an amount of "private time" to recharge batteries
Motivated internally, mind is sometimes so active it is "closed" to outside world
Prefer one-to-one communication and relationships
So: think first act second, or act first think second? Hard to say. I think a lot, about lots of things. But then when confronted with a decision, I generally make snap decisions more often than dwell on them. And then I review the decision afterwards and factor that into the next time I have to make a decision. Clearly, I do a lot of thinking ahead of time. But not about specific decisions. Does it count if I think a lot about a general topic and then make snap decisions about that topic? Or does that count as act first think second? What about the reflection I do afterwards, that often forms the basis of my next decision?
Or how about open to and motivated by outside world, or motivated internally and being closed to outside world? Well, I'm neither: I think internally *and* interact externally usually simultaneously. I'm more of a multitasker in that sense and I also prefer it that way. I'm never so internally active I'm closed to the outside world. But I'm never driven by the external world either.
Here is me in a nutshell. Do I like being hot or cold? Well, what I like most of all is the feeling you get when you've been in a very cold room for a very long time, and then you walk outside into the very hot sun. Those few seconds when you are cold but feeling the outside warmth is to me one of the best feelings in the world. I like being warmed. But I hate hate hate being warm. I'd much rather be cool. So hate warm, like cool, love cool but being warmed. And that option is never on the test.
I spent a record withotu interacting with people even at work. They thought I was a zombie. They was whispering thinking I didnt hear them. So after about two months of not talking, interacting with people, I finally one day came to work and said "Braaaaaaaaaaaaiiiins." The look on their face was priceless, especially given it was the first words I ever said to them.Err... I don't think I would be calling a coworker that did that an introvert.
...
I guess I always been an introvert.