Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why

[Wammo]

This may not be the most politically correct post. I mean no offense to anyone. I am simply putting forth a few observations from my experience and offering a little hope in the process...I could be wrong on some of this but I have had some personal dealings with Korean friends...just my observations

1. Korean culture is very different and subsequently very strange to westerners. They have a very strict kind of hierarchal structure. For instance, if you were born 5 minutes before me I am obligated to be submissive to you and allow you to lead. I am, in such an instance, to follow you or be very disrespectful causing you to lose face in the process.

2. Authority is taken seriously. If you are my subordinate and are insubordinate to me that is about the biggest slap in the face you could give me in life...it is an embarrassment to me unparalleled.

3. NcSoft considers themselves to be the superior in their relationship with the fan base. They see any discontent on the part of the player base as disrespect and insubordination. Therefore we have offered them the highest form of embarrassment in a public kind of fashion. This likely made them unreasonable in their negations for the selling of the game, IP, etc.

4. Now that the game has sold there is an opportunity for the executives at NcSoft to sell and save face. They have done exactly what they said they were going to do and in the process have maintained their "superior" position in our relationship with them. They have saved face by going through with the shutdown. Now we have a new day and new positions might be taken without the fear of any dishonor.

All this to say...We still have hope. I would encourage any and all parties to seek to reopen negotiations with the executives at NcSoft. I truly believe you may find a more cooperative party with which to negotiate the selling of the game.

[Little David]

As far as I understand things, nobody on this side of the issue was responsible for closing negotiations.

In fact, Task Force Hail Mary is all about trying to keep negotiations going through another party (Disney).

[Perfidus]

You understand correctly, David. No one with any interest in CoH was responsible for the closing of negotiations, or in some cases, the lack of negotiations all together. We've never given up. If it was as easy as just saying "Hey, guys? Can we talk about this some more?" ...we absolutely would've done it by now, and definitely before the game was shuttered. The entire point of the current SaveCoH/AvengeCoH movement is that we hope NCSoft will reopen negotiations (or, if you think like I do and think they lied before, open negotiation for the first time.)

[Sarge Morris]

I'd be a big fan of negotiations.  I love negotiations.  Like when we negotiated with Korea about September-October 1950.   Except this time, metaphorically speaking of course, we oughta follow MacArthur's lead and keep pushing.

[dwturducken]

I think what he's saying is that we send the original team back, now that the game is closed and NCSoft is hurting.

[Wammo]

Ducken you are correct...

It is time to start this thing over from scratch. It is time to seek new negotiations with a humble yet firm and confident posture. I truly believe there is an opportunity here to see the game reopened sooner than anyone might realize.

[dwturducken]

And, to that, i would say that we should play out the Disney option, first. Not saying yours is a bad idea, just ill-timed. Just my opinion.

[Xieveral]

1. Korean culture is very different and subsequently very strange to westerners. They have a very strict kind of hierarchal structure. For instance, if you were born 5 minutes before me I am obligated to be submissive to you and allow you to lead. I am, in such an instance, to follow you or be very disrespectful causing you to lose face in the process.

2. Authority is taken seriously. If you are my subordinate and you are insubordinate to me that is about the biggest slap in the face you could give me in life...it is an embarrassment to me unparalleled.

3. NcSoft considers themselves to be the superior in their relationship with the fan base. They see any discontent on the part of the player base of their games as disrespect and insubordination. Therefore we have offered them the highest form of embarrassment in a public kind of fashion. This likely made them unreasonable in their negations for the selling of the game, IP, etc.

4. Now that the game has sold there is an opportunity for the executives at NcSoft to sell and save face. They have done exactly what they said they were going to do and in the process have maintained their "superior" position in our relationship with them. They have saved face by going through with the shutdown. Now we have a new day and new positions might be taken without the fear of any dishonor.

None of the above is some exclusive Korean mindset, the above can apply to any other company in any other nation. I apologize if I sound snippy, it just really bothers me when people believe all east Asian culture to be stuck in the 1600s and stereotypically still revolve around "honor" as if it were a matter of life or death.

[Colette]

Wammo, is this summary of Korean culture just based upon "some personal dealings with Korean friends?" I'm grateful for insights, but I think we need to hear from people with solid credentials before making these sorts of generalizations.

(For the record, your experience is consistent with my very limited experience, but my point stands.)

[Kistulot]

I think it's important to remember that acknowledging cultural differences does not make one ethnocentric - on the contrary, recognizing the differences and accepting them as reasonable and adapting to them is responsible and polite.

Obviously we wouldn't want to go to NCSoft - or any other company, Korean or otherwise, and treat them in ways that would be considered rude in their country. We don't want to make them a parody of themselves in how we portray our attempts to adapt. Also, it's worth considering that while we know this about them, they know this about us.

Western culture I'm -sure- has things that if I was outside of it I would describe as weird and notable. Being inside of it so deeply I find it hard to point these things out, but its true. While the majority of NCSoft's dealings have seemed to be reaffirming their style is the same globally, our response should be tempered to make sure we don't ignore the inherent aspects of our culture which could be seen as offensive if not reigned in.

You don't go to someone else's country and not wipe your feet at the door- in accordance to their culture. Negotiating with a company necessitates treating the situation in a similar fashion.

Of course, this just is from my personal observations and experiences. I trust the people reaching out know these things already, but it never hurts to discuss things people already know.

[Wammo]

Xieveral,
I apologize if I offended you. I did not mean to overgeneralize. I simply offer an explanation for why now might be a better time to seek negotiations than the time before the closing of the game. Cultural differences can play a role in our interaction with NcSoft. I would admit the cultural mores of my country, even those from as far back as the 1600's, affect my behavior today in ways I am aware and not so aware.

I think we just need to be sensitive to reasons which could explain why there were unreasonable conditions put on the sale before the closure. There are many things which may or may not have been taken into account. Some of these could have to do with the cultural differences between us.

[Ad_Astra]

But here's the thing - IF negotiations were reopened at this time, THEN those involved would be very well-advised not to tell us. We are a bunch of blabber-mouths, collectively, especially since folks would be thrilled and tempted to share the "good news".

Those who are able to make offers and back them up are likely considering options, as they have been ALL ALONG.

We can discuss this all we want here in a forum, but we have no real control over whether negotiations are open or closed either way.

Plus - didn't we already have lengthy discussions about Korean culture and how it might affect business dealings between US-based people on one side of the negotiation and Korean-based people on the other?

[Kistulot]

Gotta agree with you, Ad_Astra, on all accounts.

Just as you said, blabber-mouths, so I wanted to put in my two cents

[Surelle]

There were similar postings on the official CoH boards back when it all first hit the fan.

It's a nice idea, but there are a whole lot of questionable variables here.  You talk as though there is actually an interested party actively trying to buy CoH from NCSoft.  That's when all this would matter most.  And there is not (at least none that we know of publicly).  There is only a 31 page document that got mailed out to a completely unsuspecting target, a wild hail mary pass that Team Wildcard is the first to admit is exactly that.  It's not like Disney is actively looking for an 8 1/2 year old MMORPG with a very modest subscriber base, let's face it, and we hardly have millions of rabid fans that could turn their heads. Hey, I wrote my letter to Disney, and believe me, I want it all to succeed more than you know, but facts are facts.

If there is in fact a team of financed developers (like Brian, Melissa and Matt etc.) with the backing to make an offer, that ARE making an offer as we speak, then WOO HOO!  And then yes, they would want to consider the social angles as they go in.  And I sure do hope that this more reasonable and possible event is one that is taking place either now or very shortly in the future, because we not only need to strike while the iron's hot, but we need people as devoted to the game as we are to keep it running and no one could possibly care about it more than its original creators.

But as far as respect and behavior go, I do find it hard to believe that NCSoft much cares about either when theirs has been TERRIBAD over such an elongated period of time to basically all of the west and EU.  To be honest, CoH's closure is only one in a very long string of brutal behaviors (not only in what they did but all around how they did it) spanning basically their entire time as an MMORPG publisher.

If they expect respect, they should give it, too.  And believe me, that would be a FIRST for them with ANYONE.   I could go on and on but I won't.  You obviously have never played the Lineage series, or Aion, or Tabula Rasa, etc. or you'd already know what they're like.  The word respect isn't even in their dictionary-- just greed, neglect, scamming....  You get the drift.

The only thing that has gotten us anywhere at all, anywhere near the beginnings of the response we need, is going full throttle in the noise department with every mainstream media outlet we can get access to.  If it weren't for all the negative press NCSoft is getting hit with, they never would have even changed from  the"exhausted every avenue for selling the game" message in early October to yesterday's "we haven't decided what to do yet" type attitude.

Cowering in the corner and shutting  the heck up is exactly what they'd love for us to do.  But until they actually ink a deal with a capable dev/publisher/investor, then personally, I'm not doing it.

[Colette]

"Cowering in the corner and shutting  the heck up is exactly what they'd love for us to do."

Not gonna happen. We can keep this up forever. There's zilch they can do to us. Just sell the IP, Mr. Kim. The nightmare will not end until you sell it.

Seriously, can't somebody get an expert on that silly little peninsula out here?

[dwturducken]

Super-serially?

[Taceus Jiwede]

 Korean culture is certainly different and it is best to respect their culture like any culture should do for another, but NCSoft is an international business and feels the exact same way.  It is good to be familiar with Korean business practices so you can be respectful and get more accomplished because you guys are closer to the same playing field, but NCSoft does the same exact thing.  They study Western business practices too so they can be respectful and get more accomplished by being closer to the same playing field.  Companies that are international like NCSoft while I am sure have some Korean business ethics also have to be able to adjust and prepare for other cultures.  They would loose so much money, so frequently if every time they went into a business deal and wouldn't budge because that company didn't use EXACTLY the same business ethics. One local Korean business to another, maybe then, but NCSoft deals with other business' in other countries that in fact do not follow these Korean business ethics and they can't expect, and they don't I assure you, everyone they do business with to go about it the same way.  I am not saying that NCSoft doesn't handle business differently then westerners and I am not saying that they don't want to stay true to their way of business as much as possible.  But it is rather offensive that you would act is if these international, highly educated, and very well traveled business men would be completely blind to any culture other then their own.  A multiple million dollar (billion won) company is being made to sound as if a they are a bunch of people sitting crossed legged in robes talking about Westerners "shame them" or "dishonor them" while a gong rings.

I don't mean to stand up for NCSoft I still think they are big meanies.  But I have feeling the IP isn't being sold because they are A-holes or because they asked for too much.  Not because we fail to understand the way they handle business.  Any company that was trying to purchase the IP was probably very familiar with Korean business before going into negotiations

[Surelle]

...I am not saying that NCSoft doesn't handle business differently then westerners and I am not saying that they don't want to stay true to their way of business as much as possible.  But it is rather offensive that you would act is if these international, highly educated, and very well traveled business men would be completely blind to any culture other then their own.  A multiple million dollar (billion won) company is being made to sound as if a they are a bunch of people sitting crossed legged in robes talking about Westerners "shame them" or "dishonor them" while a gong rings.

I don't mean to stand up for NCSoft I still think they are big meanies.  But I have feeling the IP isn't being sold because they are A-holes or because they asked for too much.  Not because we fail to understand the way they handle business

*claps*  This too, for sure.

[Victoria Victrix]

Darlin', first we have to get someone who wants City to re-open the negotiations.  The only actual original negotiations that were going on that I know of were by the former members of Paragon Studios in the first month after closing.  That team is now down to less than 20, and I don't know if they can get their original funders interested again.  Venture Capitalists tend to want to invest NOW and don't sit around on their cash.

This is why TF Hail Mary is courting Disney.  And you don't try to teach Disney ANYTHING, savvy?  They've been doing negotiations since long before your parents were alive.

[Colette]

Thank'ya, V.V.

Now I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings or come off as tempermental, or at least no more so than usual.

Wammo, I appreciate that you, like SRMalloy before you, are trying to help. My concern is that nobody who has studied the language and actually lived with the people has come forward to confirm, modify or deny these views of Korean culture as it exists today. I spent three months there, fifteen years ago. Does that make me an expert? Ha!

So while my personal experience agrees with your assessment, I would like to call for a moritorium on this approach to understanding our adversary, until a real expert with verifiable credentials offers his or her services. Thanks.