Author Topic: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why  (Read 18155 times)

Aggelakis

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2012, 04:44:44 AM »
[mod hat]

Howdy guys. Just wanted to make sure you guys keep things civil (pretty good job so far) and don't start dipping your toes into the unfounded stereotyping or racism that these kind of threads sometimes devolve into. I'm keeping a pretty close eye on things here. Thanks for staying constructive!

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Perfidus

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2012, 04:48:47 AM »
Thanks for poking your head in, Agge. That's a good thing for people to see, As I mentioned in some other thread, I plan to make yours and the other moderators' jobs easier by reporting obvious offenses. And I know I'm not alone in that. I know we all want this community to stay intact and as dramafree as possible.

Vasarto

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2012, 01:00:55 AM »
This may not be the most politically correct post. I mean no offense to anyone. I am simply putting forth a few observations from my experience and offering a little hope in the process...I could be wrong on some of this but I have had some personal dealings with Korean friends...just my observations

I am obligated to be submissive to you and allow you to lead. I am, in such an instance, to follow you or be very disrespectful causing you to lose face in the process.

superior in their relationship disrespect and insubordination.[/b ] This likely made them unreasonable in their negations for the selling of the game, IP, etc.

Let's pretend you are NCSOFT And you just said all of this to my face

What the...pancake did you just say to me you worthless sack of crap?

I Buy you game
I PAY for your Salary and the success of your company
ERGO!

I'M YOUR BOSS!! *While Poking Chest with finger*
NOW Your SUPERIOR Just told you to SELL THE DAMN GAME!

Basically we are superior to NCSOFT and it does not matter if its another culture or with other values or ways of thinking. You are stupid if you think you are higher than your customers and NCSOFT most definitely thinks that way about us. WE PAY for their company. WE pay for their salary and WE are the ones that make games fail or flourish.

Ergo we are the boss of every company on the planet that we buy from and if they refuse to listen to us we will refuse to give them their weekly paychecks.

Edit: Removed derogatory term. --TV
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 09:02:44 AM by TonyV »

johnrobey

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2012, 06:44:36 PM »
Let's pretend you are NCSOFT And you just said all of this to my face

What the...pancake did you just say to me you worthless sack of crap?

I Buy you game
I PAY for your Salary and the success of your company
ERGO!

I'M YOUR BOSS!! *While Poking Chest with finger*
NOW Your SUPERIOR Just told you to SELL THE DAMN GAME!

Basically we are superior to NCSOFT and it does not matter if its another culture or with other values or ways of thinking. You are stupid if you think you are higher than your customers and NCSOFT most definitely thinks that way about us. WE PAY for their company. WE pay for their salary and WE are the ones that make games fail or flourish.

Ergo we are the boss of every company on the planet that we buy from and if they refuse to listen to us we will refuse to give them their weekly paychecks.

While that's one way to look at it, I think it's also wishful thinking.  I think there should be respect in both directions, from merchants to their customers and from customers to merchants.  Neither thrives without the other.

Edit: Removed derogatory term from quote. --TV
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 09:03:43 AM by TonyV »
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Illusionss

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2012, 06:53:53 PM »
Obviously we wouldn't want to go to NCSoft - or any other company, Korean or otherwise, and treat them in ways that would be considered rude in their country.

I am tempted to respond "Why not? They were plenty rude to us in OUR country" but as I just noted in another thread, I am old and cranky so pay me no mind.  8)

Seriously, I dont think anything we do will matter as far as trying to negotiate with that bunch. Every attempt has been met with a closed door, why would that change now.

corvus1970

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2012, 07:03:27 PM »
I am tempted to respond "Why not? They were plenty rude to us in OUR country" but as I just noted in another thread, I am old and cranky so pay me no mind.  8)

Eh, its not just you.

This stuff it a two-way street, and compromise is often smart in business. Why should we do all the bending?
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Colette

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2012, 07:17:14 PM »
"I am tempted to respond 'Why not [be rude]? They were plenty rude to us in OUR country...'"

Because it is not productive?

They were indeed plenty rude to us, aye! Dismissive, patronizing, haughty. I have made my share of anti-NCSoft memes, absolutely. But remember that damaging NCSoft is a means, not our goal. Our goal is to persuade NCSoft to sell Paragon City and to persuade a better caretaker to buy it. That done, I won't waste another second thinking about NCSoft or Nexon. They can all move to Pyonyang for all I care. We're not here to teach them a lesson.

Until they sell, I'll still be here creating memes and warning my friends against not merely NCSoft, but against all MMOs until we, the players, have a more equitable and dependable contract with our service providers. (MMO providers take heed!)

While analyzing Korean culture and business practices may possibly help us, rudeness and prejudice will not. Let's stay focused.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 07:23:29 PM by Colette »

Mistress Urd

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2012, 08:34:09 PM »
I certainly understand that feeling. I have a few friends chasing the "next great MMO" only to move to the "next" one two months later. I'm not like that, I am all in or not at all. Given the issues with NCSoft I don't expect to play any new or existing game of theirs and I am reluctant to even play any other MMO.

srmalloy

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2012, 12:50:37 AM »
They were indeed plenty rude to us, aye! Dismissive, patronizing, haughty. I have made my share of anti-NCSoft memes, absolutely. But remember that damaging NCSoft is a means, not our goal. Our goal is to persuade NCSoft to sell Paragon City and to persuade a better caretaker to buy it. That done, I won't waste another second thinking about NCSoft or Nexon. They can all move to Pyonyang for all I care. We're not here to teach them a lesson.

Also remember that in all probability, in their view, they were acting with consideration. Firing people on a Friday and without notice means that they don't have to come back in to work and face their coworkers with the stigma of failure hanging over them. The carefully-neutral statements about the closing of CoH were intended to preserve harmony by not having anything in the statement that implies any sort of failure on our part or on Paragon Studios' part, so we can accept the pronouncement without losing face ourselves.

What makes this an utter failure on the part of NCSoft is that they just blindly acted as if Paragon Studios -- and all of us -- were Korean, and expected us to react like Koreans. They either couldn't understand or couldn't be bothered to make the effort to understand the difference between Korean and Western cultures, and how actions that may be highly courteous in Korea are massively insulting in the US. And that is an even bigger insult -- that NCSoft has declared repeatedly how they intend to expand into the Western market, but assume that everyone in the world is going to act like proper Koreans should act, so they don't have to bother figuring out other markets. We don't matter enough for them to make the effort to understand us; our only purpose is to line up to pay them money.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2012, 03:38:04 AM »
We don't matter enough for them to make the effort to understand us; our only purpose is to line up to pay them money.
[/b]

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2012, 04:20:27 AM »
You understand correctly, David. No one with any interest in CoH was responsible for the closing of negotiations, or in some cases, the lack of negotiations all together. We've never given up. If it was as easy as just saying "Hey, guys? Can we talk about this some more?" ...we absolutely would've done it by now, and definitely before the game was shuttered. The entire point of the current SaveCoH/AvengeCoH movement is that we hope NCSoft will reopen negotiations (or, if you think like I do and think they lied before, open negotiation for the first time.)
If NCSOFT doesn't understand by now that we were wanting them to talk more, they have to be high or utterly stupid.


.....
However.


Understanding cultural realities is a good idea.

TonyV

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2012, 09:28:10 AM »
They were indeed plenty rude to us, aye! Dismissive, patronizing, haughty. I have made my share of anti-NCSoft memes, absolutely. But remember that damaging NCSoft is a means, not our goal. Our goal is to persuade NCSoft to sell Paragon City and to persuade a better caretaker to buy it.

This is my personal opinion, so please don't go quoting this as, "Titan Network/Plan Z/People Named Tony/whatever believes..."

They were extremely rude to us.  And while I see a glimmer of hope in the latest "nothing has been decided..." statement, until I see some positive affirmation that they are willing to sell the IP, I am still going on their original "exhausted all options"--that is, they are unwilling to sell the IP--statement.

When I started down this path, I was deliberately as nice, respectful, and deferential as I could be.  I repeatedly kindly asked NCsoft to reconsider, to work with the player base and the developer who care so much for this game.  I communicated that I was fully prepared to make public statements about how wise and smart NCsoft is, how much they care about their players.  And lest anyone forget, Mercedes Lackey made a very generous offer for free publicity to them that would have gone far in helping them to sell their games.

Their response was, at best, disingenuous.

So pardon me for saying so, but playing the role of subservience got us bupkiss.  If I thought that it would help now, I'd do it, but I'm convinced that if we stop pushing, even for a minute, NCsoft will see that as a sign of weakness, a sign that surely this whole thing has almost blown over, that they should just wait it out a bit longer and everything will be fine.  I warned them in no uncertain terms that if they proceeded down the path they were traveling, they would suffer a public relations black eye and a LOT of discontent from a LOT of people.  Every single second along this journey, they have had the power to steer things in a different direction.  There is absolutely nothing--nothing--stopping them from right this second picking up the phone (yes, I know it's 1:15am Pacific), calling Brian Clayton, and saying, "We'd like to talk..."  And I can almost assure you that if they did, the joy and excitement at having City of Heroes back would vastly overshadow continued negative publicity that some folks will continue heaping on them.  (Which is normal--after this long, do they seriously expect there not to be any lingering affects?)

But to my knowledge, they haven't done it, so I aim to continue misbehavin'.  The way I figure, even if we fail at getting NCsoft the sell the IP, we will at least make them pay for their bad business decisions and our treatment.  And no, it's not just out of spite.  The thing is, if NCsoft gets away with this clean, it will only encourage them and other publishers and industry behemoths to do the same thing to their own customers, axing games to the point where they can't even be played any more whenever they get some stick in their craw and want to change strategic direction.  I'm tired of being treated like dirt by these companies, and it's time to draw a line in the sand and let them know--let them all know--that we're not going to just stand here taking it any more.  If you're going to take hundreds or thousands of my hard-earned dollars, then when you change whatever corporate goals that mean that my game gets cut, you'd better damn well make sure that I'm not going to be left out in the cold.

"But hey, Tony, it's an MMO, it happens," right?  Wrong.  To my knowledge, this is by far the biggest and longest-running game that I know of that's shut down like this, to the point where it couldn't be played.  Yes, I know that some other MMOs have gone under, but if you ranked them all according to how much the average player has spent on the game, I'm almost certain that City of Heroes would be right at the top of the list.  And while something like this has always hypothetically been possible, the chances of it have always been mitigated by the threat of a backlash.  Kind of like how a bank could hypothetically demand the full balance of a credit card debt at any time, but realistically, they don't because of the huge blow in reputation they'd take.  Well, now it's no longer a hypothetical, it's a reality.  NCsoft actually threw the switches, and now millions of dollars in collective investment, to say nothing of the intellectual property of countless numbers of players, has been destroyed.  And I'll be damned if I just sit back and let them get away with it without doing my part to incur the wrath of the former customers they've screwed over--if for no other reason in the end, to send a crystal clear message to other companies, "Do this at the peril of your reputation and even your financial stability."

I'd like to think that if our actions are successful within the industry, if something like World of Warcraft ever shuts down, its players will either have a sequel to migrate their accounts to, get some kind of single-player or small group local server they can use to keep playing, or something besides just, "That's it, thanks for thousands of dollars, have a nice life."  Because in this day and age when computing resources are so cheap, that's simply unacceptable.

...But I digress.  My main point is that we've tried doing the deferential thing and it didn't work.  So we've moved on to something else.  NCsoft knows what the score is and can at any time quell the uprising, and doing so is actually quite easy.  The time for "saving face" is over; at this point, the only question is just how deep into the jar of stupid they're willing to dip before they cut their losses and start being smart again.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 09:41:49 AM by TonyV »

johnrobey

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2012, 10:04:09 AM »
Tony (and other forum readers), if I were to offer an opinion you didn't like, even if I phrased it nicely, would I, like, get in trouble?

You guys would just lovingly explain to me why I was wrong, right?

I do understand you're keeping us fired up and motivated, but what if there's another side to this?

Just sayin'

P.S.  I'm all in favor of serious-constructive, as well as fun, and putting a quash on negativity for its own sake.   Whatever the replies, I know I need to sleep on it, so g'nite.
Despite my question, I'm all in favor of CoH continuing and appreciate these forums as a gathering place.  For real and completely on the level.
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TonyV

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2012, 03:52:58 PM »
Tony (and other forum readers), if I were to offer an opinion you didn't like, even if I phrased it nicely, would I, like, get in trouble?

You'd have to really try to "get in trouble."  We wouldn't take it out on you unless you start doing stuff that's just thinly veiled trolling or if you do something like making physical threats.

Colette

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2012, 04:19:46 PM »
I think we're very much on the same sheet of music, Tony. I'm just trying to focus all our efforts on the goal: getting that reunion party in Paragon City. Politely, rudely, high road or low (excepting illegal or infamous means that would damage our good name more than theirs.) If NCSoft ceases to exist, we carry on the fight against Nexon. It all leads to that day when the lights go back on.

And yes, other MMO providers absolutely need to sit up and take notice! I very strongly impressed upon my contact (who is a vital dev at a well-regarded MMO) that NCSoft's actions jeopardize the entire gaming genre. And we need to ensure every professional in that field is aware, both to protect the gaming community and to make NCSoft more of a pariah.

"...playing the role of subservience got us bupkiss."

(Very brief personal jingoistic fugue.) Koreans and Korean-Americans are among the finest I ever served alongside. Nonetheless, without US and allied troops Mr. Kim and everyone he knows would be licking Kim Jun On's spittle off the sidewalk or polishing boots for Japanese troops. The obsequious role is directly contrary to the nature of the American people from our foundation. Getting on a high horse and lookin' down on us is the best way to getting on our bad side, and they better figger that out right quick! But that's not relevant to our goal. (End fugue.)

...what if there's another side to this?"

We need Borg-mode here: We are SaveCoH. You will surrender Paragon. "Other sides" are irrelevant. Resistance is futile.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 04:40:20 PM by Colette »

Turjan

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2012, 04:46:28 PM »
They were extremely rude to us.
..........
So pardon me for saying so, but playing the role of subservience got us bupkiss.
..........
The time for "saving face" is over; at this point, the only question is just how deep into the jar of stupid they're willing to dip before they cut their losses and start being smart again.
Amen to that.

If I do business with a foreign country, I do my best to learn something about that country's culture and business mechanics first - in addition to being respectful, it's just simple business sense. If I don't, then I deserve to get my business-naive arse handed back to me big time.

To me, NCsoft's management seem to have almost pro-actively adopted cultural ignorance as a rallying banner when trying to do business in the west. When one of their projects has started to fail they've fallen back on being even more culturally Korean as a defence, and the upshot of that is the closure of 5 MMOs in a decade. If they haven't realised by now that Korean cultural/business practices don't work here, then they never will.

Being born 5 minutes before someone else may earn you a sort of forced respect in Korea, but here in the west respect is something that has to be earned. Anyone who tries to go into business in the west without accepting that fact deserves their inevitable failure.

Colette

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2012, 04:53:15 PM »
"...here in the west respect is something that has to be earned."

Though we're falling into a tangent, I gotta amend that. Here, everyone gets respect until they lose it. Fair 'nuff?

johnrobey

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2012, 06:07:14 PM »
You'd have to really try to "get in trouble."  We wouldn't take it out on you unless you start doing stuff that's just thinly veiled trolling or if you do something like making physical threats.

No worries.  Thank you and everyone that replied.  I foolishly allowed myself to stay up again all night, so short on sleep which with high emotions, especially grief, can impact judgement.  What I thought I might possibly say, unpon further reflection does NOT need saying.  If it does later on, I shall.  Meanwhile, I  recognize I'm worn and frazzled.  Not only do I need more time to consider the matter, I'm more that 1/2 convinced I've rethought my position, since fatigue combined with cares and worry is more often a recipe for disaster than good, no matter how intended.

Said another way, I'm human, off balance from the sunset of City of Heroes.  Like many who've been thru an intense grieving process, I need rest.  Thank you for your understanding and compassion.
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CG

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2012, 08:05:01 PM »
"...here in the west respect is something that has to be earned."

Though we're falling into a tangent, I gotta amend that. Here, everyone gets respect until they lose it. Fair 'nuff?
I would amend that to be that everyone gets courtesy until they lose it.  Respect is something that has to be earned.

Urban Fox

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Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2012, 11:23:09 PM »
After the clearly abysmal treatment of its player base,the very idea of being polite,to me seems akin to going to a restaurant and having cold food,no manager to talk to and told to get out after you have finished said meal,which has been less than satisfactory......call me perhaps a slightly disgruntled player (I am, no matter what) the way we as players and fans of this wonderful game have been dumped out.
Now,we have no game nor community(with the exception of Titan that is) that has taken years to build go in the flick of a switch,NCSoft saying they have exhausted all avenues? The IP and matereial left defunct,my question is this,if they are not using the code ,what is its worth? if they are not using the hardware,again what is its worth? my answer is it is worth nothing,if your not using it,
a bit like dead stock in a high street shop,negotiations for some thing no longer being used? a price on some thing that is worthless now to NCSoft via their own actions and business ethics and structure plan (if there was one),bit odd isn't it,or is it just me,please correct me if I am wrong?

My first post hopefully I don,t get face planted for naivity!