Author Topic: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why  (Read 18135 times)

Wammo

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« on: December 05, 2012, 10:02:58 PM »
This may not be the most politically correct post. I mean no offense to anyone. I am simply putting forth a few observations from my experience and offering a little hope in the process...I could be wrong on some of this but I have had some personal dealings with Korean friends...just my observations

1. Korean culture is very different and subsequently very strange to westerners. They have a very strict kind of hierarchal structure. For instance, if you were born 5 minutes before me I am obligated to be submissive to you and allow you to lead. I am, in such an instance, to follow you or be very disrespectful causing you to lose face in the process.

2. Authority is taken seriously. If you are my subordinate and are insubordinate to me that is about the biggest slap in the face you could give me in life...it is an embarrassment to me unparalleled.

3. NcSoft considers themselves to be the superior in their relationship with the fan base. They see any discontent on the part of the player base as disrespect and insubordination. Therefore we have offered them the highest form of embarrassment in a public kind of fashion. This likely made them unreasonable in their negations for the selling of the game, IP, etc.

4. Now that the game has sold there is an opportunity for the executives at NcSoft to sell and save face. They have done exactly what they said they were going to do and in the process have maintained their "superior" position in our relationship with them. They have saved face by going through with the shutdown. Now we have a new day and new positions might be taken without the fear of any dishonor.

All this to say...We still have hope. I would encourage any and all parties to seek to reopen negotiations with the executives at NcSoft. I truly believe you may find a more cooperative party with which to negotiate the selling of the game.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 10:51:57 PM by Wammo »

Little David

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 149
    • The Ad Ultimum Network
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 10:18:21 PM »
As far as I understand things, nobody on this side of the issue was responsible for closing negotiations.

In fact, Task Force Hail Mary is all about trying to keep negotiations going through another party (Disney).

Perfidus

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 370
  • "I, ah.. understand."
    • My arts.
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 10:20:49 PM »
You understand correctly, David. No one with any interest in CoH was responsible for the closing of negotiations, or in some cases, the lack of negotiations all together. We've never given up. If it was as easy as just saying "Hey, guys? Can we talk about this some more?" ...we absolutely would've done it by now, and definitely before the game was shuttered. The entire point of the current SaveCoH/AvengeCoH movement is that we hope NCSoft will reopen negotiations (or, if you think like I do and think they lied before, open negotiation for the first time.)

Sarge Morris

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 10:33:43 PM »
I'd be a big fan of negotiations.  I love negotiations.  Like when we negotiated with Korea about September-October 1950.   Except this time, metaphorically speaking of course, we oughta follow MacArthur's lead and keep pushing.

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 10:35:34 PM »
I think what he's saying is that we send the original team back, now that the game is closed and NCSoft is hurting.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Wammo

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 10:39:23 PM »
Ducken you are correct...

It is time to start this thing over from scratch. It is time to seek new negotiations with a humble yet firm and confident posture. I truly believe there is an opportunity here to see the game reopened sooner than anyone might realize.

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2012, 10:45:16 PM »
And, to that, i would say that we should play out the Disney option, first. Not saying yours is a bad idea, just ill-timed. Just my opinion.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Xieveral

  • Chaotic Neutral
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2012, 11:18:56 PM »
1. Korean culture is very different and subsequently very strange to westerners. They have a very strict kind of hierarchal structure. For instance, if you were born 5 minutes before me I am obligated to be submissive to you and allow you to lead. I am, in such an instance, to follow you or be very disrespectful causing you to lose face in the process.

2. Authority is taken seriously. If you are my subordinate and you are insubordinate to me that is about the biggest slap in the face you could give me in life...it is an embarrassment to me unparalleled.

3. NcSoft considers themselves to be the superior in their relationship with the fan base. They see any discontent on the part of the player base of their games as disrespect and insubordination. Therefore we have offered them the highest form of embarrassment in a public kind of fashion. This likely made them unreasonable in their negations for the selling of the game, IP, etc.

4. Now that the game has sold there is an opportunity for the executives at NcSoft to sell and save face. They have done exactly what they said they were going to do and in the process have maintained their "superior" position in our relationship with them. They have saved face by going through with the shutdown. Now we have a new day and new positions might be taken without the fear of any dishonor.

None of the above is some exclusive Korean mindset, the above can apply to any other company in any other nation. I apologize if I sound snippy, it just really bothers me when people believe all east Asian culture to be stuck in the 1600s and stereotypically still revolve around "honor" as if it were a matter of life or death.
?RSN = CKN(CRS.ROD)

RSN = GLR(EMP.MCL)

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2012, 11:27:12 PM »
Wammo, is this summary of Korean culture just based upon "some personal dealings with Korean friends?" I'm grateful for insights, but I think we need to hear from people with solid credentials before making these sorts of generalizations.

(For the record, your experience is consistent with my very limited experience, but my point stands.)

Kistulot

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 540
  • Argentum Weritas Est!
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2012, 11:37:43 PM »
I think it's important to remember that acknowledging cultural differences does not make one ethnocentric - on the contrary, recognizing the differences and accepting them as reasonable and adapting to them is responsible and polite.

Obviously we wouldn't want to go to NCSoft - or any other company, Korean or otherwise, and treat them in ways that would be considered rude in their country. We don't want to make them a parody of themselves in how we portray our attempts to adapt. Also, it's worth considering that while we know this about them, they know this about us.

Western culture I'm -sure- has things that if I was outside of it I would describe as weird and notable. Being inside of it so deeply I find it hard to point these things out, but its true. While the majority of NCSoft's dealings have seemed to be reaffirming their style is the same globally, our response should be tempered to make sure we don't ignore the inherent aspects of our culture which could be seen as offensive if not reigned in.

You don't go to someone else's country and not wipe your feet at the door- in accordance to their culture. Negotiating with a company necessitates treating the situation in a similar fashion.

Of course, this just is from my personal observations and experiences. I trust the people reaching out know these things already, but it never hurts to discuss things people already know.
Woo! - Argent Girl

Wammo

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2012, 11:47:22 PM »
Xieveral,
I apologize if I offended you. I did not mean to overgeneralize. I simply offer an explanation for why now might be a better time to seek negotiations than the time before the closing of the game. Cultural differences can play a role in our interaction with NcSoft. I would admit the cultural mores of my country, even those from as far back as the 1600's, affect my behavior today in ways I am aware and not so aware.

I think we just need to be sensitive to reasons which could explain why there were unreasonable conditions put on the sale before the closure. There are many things which may or may not have been taken into account. Some of these could have to do with the cultural differences between us.

Ad_Astra

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 12:04:59 AM »
But here's the thing - IF negotiations were reopened at this time, THEN those involved would be very well-advised not to tell us. We are a bunch of blabber-mouths, collectively, especially since folks would be thrilled and tempted to share the "good news".

Those who are able to make offers and back them up are likely considering options, as they have been ALL ALONG.

We can discuss this all we want here in a forum, but we have no real control over whether negotiations are open or closed either way.

Plus - didn't we already have lengthy discussions about Korean culture and how it might affect business dealings between US-based people on one side of the negotiation and Korean-based people on the other?

Kistulot

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 540
  • Argentum Weritas Est!
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 12:08:25 AM »
Gotta agree with you, Ad_Astra, on all accounts.

Just as you said, blabber-mouths, so I wanted to put in my two cents :)
Woo! - Argent Girl

Surelle

  • Guest
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 12:26:46 AM »
There were similar postings on the official CoH boards back when it all first hit the fan.

It's a nice idea, but there are a whole lot of questionable variables here.  You talk as though there is actually an interested party actively trying to buy CoH from NCSoft.  That's when all this would matter most.  And there is not (at least none that we know of publicly).  There is only a 31 page document that got mailed out to a completely unsuspecting target, a wild hail mary pass that Team Wildcard is the first to admit is exactly that.  It's not like Disney is actively looking for an 8 1/2 year old MMORPG with a very modest subscriber base, let's face it, and we hardly have millions of rabid fans that could turn their heads. Hey, I wrote my letter to Disney, and believe me, I want it all to succeed more than you know, but facts are facts.

If there is in fact a team of financed developers (like Brian, Melissa and Matt etc.) with the backing to make an offer, that ARE making an offer as we speak, then WOO HOO!  And then yes, they would want to consider the social angles as they go in.  And I sure do hope that this more reasonable and possible event is one that is taking place either now or very shortly in the future, because we not only need to strike while the iron's hot, but we need people as devoted to the game as we are to keep it running and no one could possibly care about it more than its original creators.

But as far as respect and behavior go, I do find it hard to believe that NCSoft much cares about either when theirs has been TERRIBAD over such an elongated period of time to basically all of the west and EU.  To be honest, CoH's closure is only one in a very long string of brutal behaviors (not only in what they did but all around how they did it) spanning basically their entire time as an MMORPG publisher.

If they expect respect, they should give it, too.  And believe me, that would be a FIRST for them with ANYONE.   I could go on and on but I won't.  You obviously have never played the Lineage series, or Aion, or Tabula Rasa, etc. or you'd already know what they're like.  The word respect isn't even in their dictionary-- just greed, neglect, scamming....  You get the drift.

The only thing that has gotten us anywhere at all, anywhere near the beginnings of the response we need, is going full throttle in the noise department with every mainstream media outlet we can get access to.  If it weren't for all the negative press NCSoft is getting hit with, they never would have even changed from  the"exhausted every avenue for selling the game" message in early October to yesterday's "we haven't decided what to do yet" type attitude.

Cowering in the corner and shutting  the heck up is exactly what they'd love for us to do.  But until they actually ink a deal with a capable dev/publisher/investor, then personally, I'm not doing it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 12:35:17 AM by Surelle »

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2012, 12:40:45 AM »
"Cowering in the corner and shutting  the heck up is exactly what they'd love for us to do."

Not gonna happen. We can keep this up forever. There's zilch they can do to us. Just sell the IP, Mr. Kim. The nightmare will not end until you sell it.

Seriously, can't somebody get an expert on that silly little peninsula out here?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 01:30:54 AM by Colette »

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2012, 12:47:32 AM »
Super-serially? ;)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Taceus Jiwede

  • Time Traveler
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2012, 01:53:49 AM »
 Korean culture is certainly different and it is best to respect their culture like any culture should do for another, but NCSoft is an international business and feels the exact same way.  It is good to be familiar with Korean business practices so you can be respectful and get more accomplished because you guys are closer to the same playing field, but NCSoft does the same exact thing.  They study Western business practices too so they can be respectful and get more accomplished by being closer to the same playing field.  Companies that are international like NCSoft while I am sure have some Korean business ethics also have to be able to adjust and prepare for other cultures.  They would loose so much money, so frequently if every time they went into a business deal and wouldn't budge because that company didn't use EXACTLY the same business ethics. One local Korean business to another, maybe then, but NCSoft deals with other business' in other countries that in fact do not follow these Korean business ethics and they can't expect, and they don't I assure you, everyone they do business with to go about it the same way.  I am not saying that NCSoft doesn't handle business differently then westerners and I am not saying that they don't want to stay true to their way of business as much as possible.  But it is rather offensive that you would act is if these international, highly educated, and very well traveled business men would be completely blind to any culture other then their own.  A multiple million dollar (billion won) company is being made to sound as if a they are a bunch of people sitting crossed legged in robes talking about Westerners "shame them" or "dishonor them" while a gong rings.

I don't mean to stand up for NCSoft I still think they are big meanies.  But I have feeling the IP isn't being sold because they are A-holes or because they asked for too much.  Not because we fail to understand the way they handle business.  Any company that was trying to purchase the IP was probably very familiar with Korean business before going into negotiations



« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 02:06:31 AM by Taceus Jiwede »

Surelle

  • Guest
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2012, 02:03:25 AM »

...I am not saying that NCSoft doesn't handle business differently then westerners and I am not saying that they don't want to stay true to their way of business as much as possible.  But it is rather offensive that you would act is if these international, highly educated, and very well traveled business men would be completely blind to any culture other then their own.  A multiple million dollar (billion won) company is being made to sound as if a they are a bunch of people sitting crossed legged in robes talking about Westerners "shame them" or "dishonor them" while a gong rings.

I don't mean to stand up for NCSoft I still think they are big meanies.  But I have feeling the IP isn't being sold because they are A-holes or because they asked for too much.  Not because we fail to understand the way they handle business

*claps*  This too, for sure.

Victoria Victrix

  • Team Wildcard
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,886
  • If you don't try, you have failed.
    • Mercedes Lackey
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2012, 02:45:36 AM »
Darlin', first we have to get someone who wants City to re-open the negotiations.  The only actual original negotiations that were going on that I know of were by the former members of Paragon Studios in the first month after closing.  That team is now down to less than 20, and I don't know if they can get their original funders interested again.  Venture Capitalists tend to want to invest NOW and don't sit around on their cash.

This is why TF Hail Mary is courting Disney.  And you don't try to teach Disney ANYTHING, savvy?  They've been doing negotiations since long before your parents were alive.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2012, 04:14:13 AM »
Thank'ya, V.V.

Now I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings or come off as tempermental, or at least no more so than usual.

Wammo, I appreciate that you, like SRMalloy before you, are trying to help. My concern is that nobody who has studied the language and actually lived with the people has come forward to confirm, modify or deny these views of Korean culture as it exists today. I spent three months there, fifteen years ago. Does that make me an expert? Ha!

So while my personal experience agrees with your assessment, I would like to call for a moritorium on this approach to understanding our adversary, until a real expert with verifiable credentials offers his or her services. Thanks.

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2012, 04:44:44 AM »
[mod hat]

Howdy guys. Just wanted to make sure you guys keep things civil (pretty good job so far) and don't start dipping your toes into the unfounded stereotyping or racism that these kind of threads sometimes devolve into. I'm keeping a pretty close eye on things here. Thanks for staying constructive!

<3
~Agge
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Perfidus

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 370
  • "I, ah.. understand."
    • My arts.
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2012, 04:48:47 AM »
Thanks for poking your head in, Agge. That's a good thing for people to see, As I mentioned in some other thread, I plan to make yours and the other moderators' jobs easier by reporting obvious offenses. And I know I'm not alone in that. I know we all want this community to stay intact and as dramafree as possible.

Vasarto

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2012, 01:00:55 AM »
This may not be the most politically correct post. I mean no offense to anyone. I am simply putting forth a few observations from my experience and offering a little hope in the process...I could be wrong on some of this but I have had some personal dealings with Korean friends...just my observations

I am obligated to be submissive to you and allow you to lead. I am, in such an instance, to follow you or be very disrespectful causing you to lose face in the process.

superior in their relationship disrespect and insubordination.[/b ] This likely made them unreasonable in their negations for the selling of the game, IP, etc.

Let's pretend you are NCSOFT And you just said all of this to my face

What the...pancake did you just say to me you worthless sack of crap?

I Buy you game
I PAY for your Salary and the success of your company
ERGO!

I'M YOUR BOSS!! *While Poking Chest with finger*
NOW Your SUPERIOR Just told you to SELL THE DAMN GAME!

Basically we are superior to NCSOFT and it does not matter if its another culture or with other values or ways of thinking. You are stupid if you think you are higher than your customers and NCSOFT most definitely thinks that way about us. WE PAY for their company. WE pay for their salary and WE are the ones that make games fail or flourish.

Ergo we are the boss of every company on the planet that we buy from and if they refuse to listen to us we will refuse to give them their weekly paychecks.

Edit: Removed derogatory term. --TV
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 09:02:44 AM by TonyV »

johnrobey

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
  • CoH global: @Kristoff von Gelmini
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2012, 06:44:36 PM »
Let's pretend you are NCSOFT And you just said all of this to my face

What the...pancake did you just say to me you worthless sack of crap?

I Buy you game
I PAY for your Salary and the success of your company
ERGO!

I'M YOUR BOSS!! *While Poking Chest with finger*
NOW Your SUPERIOR Just told you to SELL THE DAMN GAME!

Basically we are superior to NCSOFT and it does not matter if its another culture or with other values or ways of thinking. You are stupid if you think you are higher than your customers and NCSOFT most definitely thinks that way about us. WE PAY for their company. WE pay for their salary and WE are the ones that make games fail or flourish.

Ergo we are the boss of every company on the planet that we buy from and if they refuse to listen to us we will refuse to give them their weekly paychecks.

While that's one way to look at it, I think it's also wishful thinking.  I think there should be respect in both directions, from merchants to their customers and from customers to merchants.  Neither thrives without the other.

Edit: Removed derogatory term from quote. --TV
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 09:03:43 AM by TonyV »
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi         "In every generation there has to be some fool who will speak the truth as he sees it." -- Boris Pasternak
"Where They Have Burned Books They Will End In Burning Human Beings" -- Heinrich Heine

Illusionss

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2012, 06:53:53 PM »
Obviously we wouldn't want to go to NCSoft - or any other company, Korean or otherwise, and treat them in ways that would be considered rude in their country.

I am tempted to respond "Why not? They were plenty rude to us in OUR country" but as I just noted in another thread, I am old and cranky so pay me no mind.  8)

Seriously, I dont think anything we do will matter as far as trying to negotiate with that bunch. Every attempt has been met with a closed door, why would that change now.

corvus1970

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 758
  • A true ruler is as moral as a Hurricane.
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2012, 07:03:27 PM »
I am tempted to respond "Why not? They were plenty rude to us in OUR country" but as I just noted in another thread, I am old and cranky so pay me no mind.  8)

Eh, its not just you.

This stuff it a two-way street, and compromise is often smart in business. Why should we do all the bending?
... ^o^CORVUS^o^
"...if nothing we do matters, than all that matters is what we do."
http://corvus1970.deviantart.com/

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2012, 07:17:14 PM »
"I am tempted to respond 'Why not [be rude]? They were plenty rude to us in OUR country...'"

Because it is not productive?

They were indeed plenty rude to us, aye! Dismissive, patronizing, haughty. I have made my share of anti-NCSoft memes, absolutely. But remember that damaging NCSoft is a means, not our goal. Our goal is to persuade NCSoft to sell Paragon City and to persuade a better caretaker to buy it. That done, I won't waste another second thinking about NCSoft or Nexon. They can all move to Pyonyang for all I care. We're not here to teach them a lesson.

Until they sell, I'll still be here creating memes and warning my friends against not merely NCSoft, but against all MMOs until we, the players, have a more equitable and dependable contract with our service providers. (MMO providers take heed!)

While analyzing Korean culture and business practices may possibly help us, rudeness and prejudice will not. Let's stay focused.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 07:23:29 PM by Colette »

Mistress Urd

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2012, 08:34:09 PM »
I certainly understand that feeling. I have a few friends chasing the "next great MMO" only to move to the "next" one two months later. I'm not like that, I am all in or not at all. Given the issues with NCSoft I don't expect to play any new or existing game of theirs and I am reluctant to even play any other MMO.

srmalloy

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 450
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2012, 12:50:37 AM »
They were indeed plenty rude to us, aye! Dismissive, patronizing, haughty. I have made my share of anti-NCSoft memes, absolutely. But remember that damaging NCSoft is a means, not our goal. Our goal is to persuade NCSoft to sell Paragon City and to persuade a better caretaker to buy it. That done, I won't waste another second thinking about NCSoft or Nexon. They can all move to Pyonyang for all I care. We're not here to teach them a lesson.

Also remember that in all probability, in their view, they were acting with consideration. Firing people on a Friday and without notice means that they don't have to come back in to work and face their coworkers with the stigma of failure hanging over them. The carefully-neutral statements about the closing of CoH were intended to preserve harmony by not having anything in the statement that implies any sort of failure on our part or on Paragon Studios' part, so we can accept the pronouncement without losing face ourselves.

What makes this an utter failure on the part of NCSoft is that they just blindly acted as if Paragon Studios -- and all of us -- were Korean, and expected us to react like Koreans. They either couldn't understand or couldn't be bothered to make the effort to understand the difference between Korean and Western cultures, and how actions that may be highly courteous in Korea are massively insulting in the US. And that is an even bigger insult -- that NCSoft has declared repeatedly how they intend to expand into the Western market, but assume that everyone in the world is going to act like proper Koreans should act, so they don't have to bother figuring out other markets. We don't matter enough for them to make the effort to understand us; our only purpose is to line up to pay them money.

Victoria Victrix

  • Team Wildcard
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,886
  • If you don't try, you have failed.
    • Mercedes Lackey
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2012, 03:38:04 AM »
We don't matter enough for them to make the effort to understand us; our only purpose is to line up to pay them money.
[/b]

QFT
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Lydiastar

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • @Syntaxically on twitter
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2012, 04:20:27 AM »
You understand correctly, David. No one with any interest in CoH was responsible for the closing of negotiations, or in some cases, the lack of negotiations all together. We've never given up. If it was as easy as just saying "Hey, guys? Can we talk about this some more?" ...we absolutely would've done it by now, and definitely before the game was shuttered. The entire point of the current SaveCoH/AvengeCoH movement is that we hope NCSoft will reopen negotiations (or, if you think like I do and think they lied before, open negotiation for the first time.)
If NCSOFT doesn't understand by now that we were wanting them to talk more, they have to be high or utterly stupid.


.....
However.


Understanding cultural realities is a good idea.

TonyV

  • Titan Staff
  • Elite Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,175
    • Paragon Wiki
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2012, 09:28:10 AM »
They were indeed plenty rude to us, aye! Dismissive, patronizing, haughty. I have made my share of anti-NCSoft memes, absolutely. But remember that damaging NCSoft is a means, not our goal. Our goal is to persuade NCSoft to sell Paragon City and to persuade a better caretaker to buy it.

This is my personal opinion, so please don't go quoting this as, "Titan Network/Plan Z/People Named Tony/whatever believes..."

They were extremely rude to us.  And while I see a glimmer of hope in the latest "nothing has been decided..." statement, until I see some positive affirmation that they are willing to sell the IP, I am still going on their original "exhausted all options"--that is, they are unwilling to sell the IP--statement.

When I started down this path, I was deliberately as nice, respectful, and deferential as I could be.  I repeatedly kindly asked NCsoft to reconsider, to work with the player base and the developer who care so much for this game.  I communicated that I was fully prepared to make public statements about how wise and smart NCsoft is, how much they care about their players.  And lest anyone forget, Mercedes Lackey made a very generous offer for free publicity to them that would have gone far in helping them to sell their games.

Their response was, at best, disingenuous.

So pardon me for saying so, but playing the role of subservience got us bupkiss.  If I thought that it would help now, I'd do it, but I'm convinced that if we stop pushing, even for a minute, NCsoft will see that as a sign of weakness, a sign that surely this whole thing has almost blown over, that they should just wait it out a bit longer and everything will be fine.  I warned them in no uncertain terms that if they proceeded down the path they were traveling, they would suffer a public relations black eye and a LOT of discontent from a LOT of people.  Every single second along this journey, they have had the power to steer things in a different direction.  There is absolutely nothing--nothing--stopping them from right this second picking up the phone (yes, I know it's 1:15am Pacific), calling Brian Clayton, and saying, "We'd like to talk..."  And I can almost assure you that if they did, the joy and excitement at having City of Heroes back would vastly overshadow continued negative publicity that some folks will continue heaping on them.  (Which is normal--after this long, do they seriously expect there not to be any lingering affects?)

But to my knowledge, they haven't done it, so I aim to continue misbehavin'.  The way I figure, even if we fail at getting NCsoft the sell the IP, we will at least make them pay for their bad business decisions and our treatment.  And no, it's not just out of spite.  The thing is, if NCsoft gets away with this clean, it will only encourage them and other publishers and industry behemoths to do the same thing to their own customers, axing games to the point where they can't even be played any more whenever they get some stick in their craw and want to change strategic direction.  I'm tired of being treated like dirt by these companies, and it's time to draw a line in the sand and let them know--let them all know--that we're not going to just stand here taking it any more.  If you're going to take hundreds or thousands of my hard-earned dollars, then when you change whatever corporate goals that mean that my game gets cut, you'd better damn well make sure that I'm not going to be left out in the cold.

"But hey, Tony, it's an MMO, it happens," right?  Wrong.  To my knowledge, this is by far the biggest and longest-running game that I know of that's shut down like this, to the point where it couldn't be played.  Yes, I know that some other MMOs have gone under, but if you ranked them all according to how much the average player has spent on the game, I'm almost certain that City of Heroes would be right at the top of the list.  And while something like this has always hypothetically been possible, the chances of it have always been mitigated by the threat of a backlash.  Kind of like how a bank could hypothetically demand the full balance of a credit card debt at any time, but realistically, they don't because of the huge blow in reputation they'd take.  Well, now it's no longer a hypothetical, it's a reality.  NCsoft actually threw the switches, and now millions of dollars in collective investment, to say nothing of the intellectual property of countless numbers of players, has been destroyed.  And I'll be damned if I just sit back and let them get away with it without doing my part to incur the wrath of the former customers they've screwed over--if for no other reason in the end, to send a crystal clear message to other companies, "Do this at the peril of your reputation and even your financial stability."

I'd like to think that if our actions are successful within the industry, if something like World of Warcraft ever shuts down, its players will either have a sequel to migrate their accounts to, get some kind of single-player or small group local server they can use to keep playing, or something besides just, "That's it, thanks for thousands of dollars, have a nice life."  Because in this day and age when computing resources are so cheap, that's simply unacceptable.

...But I digress.  My main point is that we've tried doing the deferential thing and it didn't work.  So we've moved on to something else.  NCsoft knows what the score is and can at any time quell the uprising, and doing so is actually quite easy.  The time for "saving face" is over; at this point, the only question is just how deep into the jar of stupid they're willing to dip before they cut their losses and start being smart again.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 09:41:49 AM by TonyV »

johnrobey

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
  • CoH global: @Kristoff von Gelmini
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2012, 10:04:09 AM »
Tony (and other forum readers), if I were to offer an opinion you didn't like, even if I phrased it nicely, would I, like, get in trouble?

You guys would just lovingly explain to me why I was wrong, right?

I do understand you're keeping us fired up and motivated, but what if there's another side to this?

Just sayin'

P.S.  I'm all in favor of serious-constructive, as well as fun, and putting a quash on negativity for its own sake.   Whatever the replies, I know I need to sleep on it, so g'nite.
Despite my question, I'm all in favor of CoH continuing and appreciate these forums as a gathering place.  For real and completely on the level.
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi         "In every generation there has to be some fool who will speak the truth as he sees it." -- Boris Pasternak
"Where They Have Burned Books They Will End In Burning Human Beings" -- Heinrich Heine

TonyV

  • Titan Staff
  • Elite Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,175
    • Paragon Wiki
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2012, 03:52:58 PM »
Tony (and other forum readers), if I were to offer an opinion you didn't like, even if I phrased it nicely, would I, like, get in trouble?

You'd have to really try to "get in trouble."  We wouldn't take it out on you unless you start doing stuff that's just thinly veiled trolling or if you do something like making physical threats.

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2012, 04:19:46 PM »
I think we're very much on the same sheet of music, Tony. I'm just trying to focus all our efforts on the goal: getting that reunion party in Paragon City. Politely, rudely, high road or low (excepting illegal or infamous means that would damage our good name more than theirs.) If NCSoft ceases to exist, we carry on the fight against Nexon. It all leads to that day when the lights go back on.

And yes, other MMO providers absolutely need to sit up and take notice! I very strongly impressed upon my contact (who is a vital dev at a well-regarded MMO) that NCSoft's actions jeopardize the entire gaming genre. And we need to ensure every professional in that field is aware, both to protect the gaming community and to make NCSoft more of a pariah.

"...playing the role of subservience got us bupkiss."

(Very brief personal jingoistic fugue.) Koreans and Korean-Americans are among the finest I ever served alongside. Nonetheless, without US and allied troops Mr. Kim and everyone he knows would be licking Kim Jun On's spittle off the sidewalk or polishing boots for Japanese troops. The obsequious role is directly contrary to the nature of the American people from our foundation. Getting on a high horse and lookin' down on us is the best way to getting on our bad side, and they better figger that out right quick! But that's not relevant to our goal. (End fugue.)

...what if there's another side to this?"

We need Borg-mode here: We are SaveCoH. You will surrender Paragon. "Other sides" are irrelevant. Resistance is futile.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 04:40:20 PM by Colette »

Turjan

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 270
  • You cannot kill a dream
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2012, 04:46:28 PM »
They were extremely rude to us.
..........
So pardon me for saying so, but playing the role of subservience got us bupkiss.
..........
The time for "saving face" is over; at this point, the only question is just how deep into the jar of stupid they're willing to dip before they cut their losses and start being smart again.
Amen to that.

If I do business with a foreign country, I do my best to learn something about that country's culture and business mechanics first - in addition to being respectful, it's just simple business sense. If I don't, then I deserve to get my business-naive arse handed back to me big time.

To me, NCsoft's management seem to have almost pro-actively adopted cultural ignorance as a rallying banner when trying to do business in the west. When one of their projects has started to fail they've fallen back on being even more culturally Korean as a defence, and the upshot of that is the closure of 5 MMOs in a decade. If they haven't realised by now that Korean cultural/business practices don't work here, then they never will.

Being born 5 minutes before someone else may earn you a sort of forced respect in Korea, but here in the west respect is something that has to be earned. Anyone who tries to go into business in the west without accepting that fact deserves their inevitable failure.

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2012, 04:53:15 PM »
"...here in the west respect is something that has to be earned."

Though we're falling into a tangent, I gotta amend that. Here, everyone gets respect until they lose it. Fair 'nuff?

johnrobey

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
  • CoH global: @Kristoff von Gelmini
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2012, 06:07:14 PM »
You'd have to really try to "get in trouble."  We wouldn't take it out on you unless you start doing stuff that's just thinly veiled trolling or if you do something like making physical threats.

No worries.  Thank you and everyone that replied.  I foolishly allowed myself to stay up again all night, so short on sleep which with high emotions, especially grief, can impact judgement.  What I thought I might possibly say, unpon further reflection does NOT need saying.  If it does later on, I shall.  Meanwhile, I  recognize I'm worn and frazzled.  Not only do I need more time to consider the matter, I'm more that 1/2 convinced I've rethought my position, since fatigue combined with cares and worry is more often a recipe for disaster than good, no matter how intended.

Said another way, I'm human, off balance from the sunset of City of Heroes.  Like many who've been thru an intense grieving process, I need rest.  Thank you for your understanding and compassion.
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi         "In every generation there has to be some fool who will speak the truth as he sees it." -- Boris Pasternak
"Where They Have Burned Books They Will End In Burning Human Beings" -- Heinrich Heine

CG

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2012, 08:05:01 PM »
"...here in the west respect is something that has to be earned."

Though we're falling into a tangent, I gotta amend that. Here, everyone gets respect until they lose it. Fair 'nuff?
I would amend that to be that everyone gets courtesy until they lose it.  Respect is something that has to be earned.

Urban Fox

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2012, 11:23:09 PM »
After the clearly abysmal treatment of its player base,the very idea of being polite,to me seems akin to going to a restaurant and having cold food,no manager to talk to and told to get out after you have finished said meal,which has been less than satisfactory......call me perhaps a slightly disgruntled player (I am, no matter what) the way we as players and fans of this wonderful game have been dumped out.
Now,we have no game nor community(with the exception of Titan that is) that has taken years to build go in the flick of a switch,NCSoft saying they have exhausted all avenues? The IP and matereial left defunct,my question is this,if they are not using the code ,what is its worth? if they are not using the hardware,again what is its worth? my answer is it is worth nothing,if your not using it,
a bit like dead stock in a high street shop,negotiations for some thing no longer being used? a price on some thing that is worthless now to NCSoft via their own actions and business ethics and structure plan (if there was one),bit odd isn't it,or is it just me,please correct me if I am wrong?

My first post hopefully I don,t get face planted for naivity!

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2012, 11:35:29 PM »
Your restaurant analogy, while fitting, still doesn't warrant a rude response. I might tip a penny, just for the insult, but I would never return to that restaurant, as well as advise everyone to avoid it at any opportunity. And always polite.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Mandrake

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 100
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2012, 07:14:26 AM »
I've argued with myself over all of this for some time while in recovery and the same two things seem basic to me as far as 'why' - both are the lame old excuses:
1) Bury it so it can't compete with anything else they currently have, or will in the future produce. Thereby restricting playerbase from one game for others.
2) It's ours... so nyah! By default we simply do not want to sell it to you out of spite for the fact you are a) 'just users' and b) are now actually causing us damage in the marketplace.

It doesn't matter that they are Korean, Japanese, Americanese, Candianese, or Europanese. I think they are just ticked off that they have been actually affected by 'a bunch of lowbies'. This is all a serious insult to their egos and it is unfortunately going to take a bit more damage to those egos and their pocketbooks to shake this all loose.

I think if VV and company are successful in getting Disney or some other major player involved in actually making a bid, that will most likely be enough to add a 'reputable way out' for them that they will jump at the chance to do so. To sell an IP to a larger and famous name could have all sorts of marketing angles for them to repair their image while appeasing the majority of the community at the same time.

A lot of IFs but ... if we can pull off any kind of name, Disney or otherwise, I think we have this one in the bag. NCsoft is now seriously damaged not just in reputation but be it by work or by divine intervention, also in the marketplace. This is really our time to shine.

Here's to a successful mish! May we trounce the hell out of those Carnies!

johnrobey

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
  • CoH global: @Kristoff von Gelmini
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2012, 08:46:02 AM »
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi         "In every generation there has to be some fool who will speak the truth as he sees it." -- Boris Pasternak
"Where They Have Burned Books They Will End In Burning Human Beings" -- Heinrich Heine

Mandrake

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 100
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2012, 09:58:35 AM »
Yep, it's another long post from me but perhaps one of my last.  What's below was written a couple of days ago as I grappled with my feelings and tried even to empathize with NCSoft.  I'd have posted it earlier, but feel certain even today, that many will not like it.  I'm sorry if I offend anyone.
.... *snip*

I didn't read anything offensive in your post at all. This is a pretty open forum so I don't think that posting your opinion is likely to earn you any -1 points - especially when presented in such a reasonable manner. I agree with a lot of what you said and disagree with some of it. Pretty common theme of discussion I think :)

Laterz
Manny

healix

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,695
  • Every good friend was once a stranger
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2012, 10:13:02 AM »
I am not going to allow NCSoft to live in my head, rent free. I don't hate them. What's done is done, and now we just need to get our City back. People are working hard on that and it gives me hope. Making silly memes is just a way to vent....our wounds are still hurting from the closure.
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

Surelle

  • Guest
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2012, 01:04:48 PM »
I've played Dungeon Runners and Tabula Rasa (and I went through the whole "NCSoft fakes a letter of resignation from Lord British then closes his game down while he's away" thing) as well as CoH, so I can see NCSoft with all their warts.  There are no rose-colored glasses here.  Not to mention that up until CoH's closure announcement, I was still playing Aion and had played Lineage 2 over the years as well.

NCSoft goes for the up-front box fees in NA and EU, then leaves their few remaining titles that haven't been shut down altogether just languishing  in the west.  Aion and Lineage 2 are absolutely overrun with gold farmers and lag and always have been, even when they were P2P.  They have to grind the heck out of the Asians to turn any profit there, as they only pay pennies per hour to play from bongs (internet cafes), and those players don't buy the game boxes or pay $15 a month.  And their pennies for their gaming hours roll over into the next month(s) if left unused.  But here, we do pay through the nose, and yet they make no adjustments in the horrid leveling curves or almost complete lack of drops/horrible RNG to compensate for the culture clash.

Heck, Aion NA doesn't even have a public test server:  Buggy, exploit-ridden, messed-up patches are routinely put directly through to the live servers without any public testing whatsoever.  Not to mention that NCSoft recently doubled the leveling curve (made it take twice as long to level) from 50-60 in Aion NA, plus made it take twice as long to level crafting from the get-go, also making it cost twice as much.  Then, while ignoring the longstanding gold farmers and horrible lag (North Americans have to run Leatrix or pay for other lag-reducing services to even ping at 200-300 *on North American servers*), they jacked up the prices of XP pots in Aion NA's cash shop instead.  End of story.

And they wonder why Aion has taken such a nosedive in their NA/EU profit reports.

I could go on and on, but I've already made my opinion known, and everyone has the right to their unenlightened fantasies.  I'm not mad when people imagine pretend scenarios where NCSoft actually cares, because they obviously don't how just how badly NC has really behaved over the years, but their imaginations don't change my actual experiences in the slightest.  And NCSoft allowing new CoH power sets to launch and approving Issue 24 to be run on the test server and then pulling the rug out from under everyone (both dev and player alike) a day or two later smacks of a brutish knee-jerk reaction, period.

And when reading glassdoor.com, a website by employees about their employers, this is exactly how NCSoft Korea is described:  They're a company that gives knee-jerk "KILL YOU NOW" reactions and is largely estranged from its western player base.

But I don't need to read glassdoor.com; I already know from bitter experience exactly what NCSoft has really been like to deal with over the years.  I just pity those innocents who as of yet obviously do not.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 02:14:38 PM by Surelle »

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2012, 02:11:23 PM »
It may surprise some people who've read my posts decrying attitudes of taking legal action to try to force NCSoft and other companies to "treat their customers right," but I agree with TonyV here.

We played this exactly as genteel as we should. We have acted with the utmost decorum without weakness. We started by trying to be polite. We did research into their cultural norms and attempted to follow them, and demonstrate that they were...missing an opportunity. We slowly ramped up the pressure as their attitude remained and became more dismissive. We made effort to understand, but we are not (as a general rule) Korean, and to smile and nod to protect the kibun of those behaving in a fashion that upsets us is not our way. In a way, however, we are exercising Korean kibun by reacting with the anger we are demonstrating.

Unlike the stereotypical kibun-restoring tantrum of their culture, however, we are products of Western society; we don't get mad and we don't get even: we channel our anger into making it work.

We MUST keep up the pressure, and we must continue to make the story new, to keep it in the public eye. NCSoft must feel this as a perpetual drag, and we must actively keep an eye on whether they really are turning to Nexon to do their Western publication from here on out. If they are, Nexon needs to feel the heat every bit as strongly. NCSoft must be made - through nothing but customer-based word of mouth - a pariah in all Western markets. A pariah so stained with shame that no company that wishes to do business here wants anything to do with them.

While I've argued strenuously against passing new laws or taking legal action against NCSoft or companies in general to force them at gunpoint (because, ultimately, that's what the law is; legalized use of force), I agree they've acted abominably and must be made to pay...within the system of market economics. Which is what this effort is, and it's doing a great job.

We've hit the hardest part, now, though: we must keep up the positive pressure on Disney and other TF:HM targets, and we must increase the volume and scope of our anti-NCSoft campaign. We must stay rigorously informed, so we know every move they make in any even semi-public way. NCSoft needs to realize that this isn't just a PR black eye; it's a styptic infection that's never going to heal. Their potential business partners must be made to see that it's contagious.

This isn't a boycott. This is a word-of-mouth campaign designed to make all potential customers aware of the hazards of doing business with NCSoft under their current model.

If they want us to stop, they have but to act like a responsible and customer-focused company, and sell the IP that they no longer wish to support.

Until then, it might be worthwhile to create a foundation, perhaps the "MMO Customer Voice Foundation" or something along those lines. Encourage those who used to subscribe to CoH to donate $15/month to said foundation, which then uses that money to support charities, sponsor public events, and keep the story as fresh as we can so we can mention "...founded when the profitable game, City of Heroes, was closed and its fanbase treated like crap..." every time we show up to support anything.

We should look into next year's Desert Bus, and Child's Play, and other geek-community-organized charities. We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending - and we should act like heroes working to build awareness of the dread villain NCSoft.

Because that's how you do this right; you make them feel it in the market until they are driven to reform...or driven out of it. Not through creating new ways to use violence, but through using the system as it is and thus enforcing the power of the invisible hand.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are the invisible hand. And I think I have a hero to make when CoH is restored, or the Phoenix Project is released. 8)

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2012, 04:10:17 PM »
JohnRobey, while I don't like to contradict people, I must disagree. I'm not concerned about NCSoft's feelings, systemic problems, corporate culture or how courteous or rude anybody is on the phone. I'm focused only on getting the job done, by any legal means. I advise you all to do likewise.

We are SaveCoH. NCSoft will surrender Paragon. "Sentimental feelings" are irrelevant. Resistance is futile.

Illusionss

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2012, 04:22:52 PM »
"...here in the west respect is something that has to be earned."

Though we're falling into a tangent, I gotta amend that. Here, everyone gets respect until they lose it. Fair 'nuff?

They lost any respect I might have had by their languid wavings-away of legitimate offers to buy the IP. So, they had it - and then they were rude, so they lost my respect.

They are going to sit on this IP just out of sheer spite.

Now: I am not advocating actual, outright rudeness in return. BUT, they had the chance to win back at least some of our respect by not acting like nyah-nyah nether orifices about this whole thing.... but no, they want to be ugly. So they lost my respect.

They can regain some of it by coming to the table and accepting a decent offer to sell the IP. I would not bet $5 that this will happen! I bet those servers are already wiped and repurposed. They're going to have to earn my respect again - I am not holding my breath over that happening, though. i think it will be a cold day in hell before they care about the respect of any Westerner.

At this point I want them out of business, so that an emulator can go unchallenged. That might be rude, but right now i see them as an obstacle in our way back to our beloved characters. They can change my assessment anytime. They can feel free to do so. Please do.

I dare 'em.

DrakeGrimm

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2012, 04:27:42 PM »
JohnRobey, while I don't like to contradict people, I must disagree. I'm not concerned about NCSoft's feelings, systemic problems, corporate culture or how courteous or rude anybody is on the phone. I'm focused only on getting the job done, by any legal means. I advise you all to do likewise.

We are SaveCoH. NCSoft will surrender Paragon. "Sentimental feelings" are irrelevant. Resistance is futile.

They are the enemy. Until such time as they release City's IP, code, servers, and accounts to a responsible party who agrees to maintain the franchise in a mature and reasonable manner, they get no mercy, and no quarter.
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

"We put ourselves in "the attitude of heroes"--and we all became a little more heroic." - VV

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2012, 04:28:29 PM »
They either couldn't understand or couldn't be bothered to make the effort to understand the difference between Korean and Western cultures, and how actions that may be highly courteous in Korea are massively insulting in the US. And that is an even bigger insult -- that NCSoft has declared repeatedly how they intend to expand into the Western market, but assume that everyone in the world is going to act like proper Koreans should act, so they don't have to bother figuring out other markets.

I'm glad you posted this; I was going to say something along those lines, but this was worded much better than mine. It's all well and good to understand their culture, but they have to make an effort to understand ours as well.

Until then, it might be worthwhile to create a foundation, perhaps the "MMO Customer Voice Foundation" or something along those lines. Encourage those who used to subscribe to CoH to donate $15/month to said foundation, which then uses that money to support charities, sponsor public events, and keep the story as fresh as we can so we can mention "...founded when the profitable game, City of Heroes, was closed and its fanbase treated like crap..." every time we show up to support anything.

We should look into next year's Desert Bus, and Child's Play, and other geek-community-organized charities. We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending - and we should act like heroes working to build awareness of the dread villain NCSoft.

Because that's how you do this right; you make them feel it in the market until they are driven to reform...or driven out of it. Not through creating new ways to use violence, but through using the system as it is and thus enforcing the power of the invisible hand.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are the invisible hand. And I think I have a hero to make when CoH is restored, or the Phoenix Project is released. 8)

This is brilliant! A player made BBB type of group to keep MMO companies in check. That is legit, and even if it's the only thing that comes out of CoH's closing, it'd be better than nothing.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2012, 04:30:36 PM »
I thought negotiations were still ongoing but no details about said negotiations can be given due to NDA and other stuff and thus the status of these negots. cannot be released to the public but there are few here with inside information of exactly what is going on but cant share said information due to said NDAs beyond that these negots are still ongoing.

On side note, be careful when delving into placing Korean culture to things like this. It's about as relevant as saying that american corporate culture and american everyday people culture is one of the same when in actuallity they are very different. Hell, many americans dont understand and or dont like american corporate culture. If american corporation was any reflection of american society then american society would be viewed as cold calculating, would sell their momma out for a dollar, and could care less about effects on lives of others as long as money is to be made, only care about their own bottom line and would sit on a pile of money and feel not a bit of remorse if everyone else starved to death. Last I checked that dont describe most american people at all, but attributing corporate culture to korean culture just because the corporation just happen to be ran by koreans is about doing the same as described above.


And if NCSoft is truely the enemy, then expect them to resist and cannot or rather it would be very illogical to be upset at all for their current actions. I think some people have no idea how they view NCSoft, all they know is that they are angry. They want them to listen to them and give up the IP yet, they are supposed to be the enemy. I dont get it. But it may not be meant for me to get it.

DrakeGrimm

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2012, 04:32:55 PM »
I thought negotiations were still ongoing but no details about said negotiations can be given due to NDA and other stuff and thus the status of these negots. cannot be released to the public but there are few here with inside information of exactly what is going on but cant share said information due to said NDAs beyond that these negots are still ongoing.

On side note, be careful when delving into placing Korean culture to things like this. It's about as relevant as saying that american corporate culture and american everyday people culture is one of the same when in actuallity they are very different. Hell, many americans dont understand and or dont like american corporate culture. If american corporation was any reflection of american society then american society would be viewed as cold calculating, would sell their momma out for a dollar, and could care less about effects on lives of others as long as money is to be made, only care about their own bottom line and would sit on a pile of money and feel not a bit of remorse if everyone else starved to death. Last I checked that dont describe most american people at all, but attributing corporate culture to korean culture just because the corporation just happen to be ran by koreans is about doing the same as described above.


And if NCSoft is truely the enemy, then expect them to resist and cannot or rather it would be very illogical to be upset at all for their current actions. I think some people have no idea how they view NCSoft, all they know is that they are angry. They want them to listen to them and give up the IP yet, they are supposed to be the enemy. I dont get it. But it may not be meant for me to get it.

That's what makes this a war. Plain and simple.
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

"We put ourselves in "the attitude of heroes"--and we all became a little more heroic." - VV

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2012, 04:44:21 PM »
That's what makes this a war. Plain and simple.

fair enough. But if this is war, those that declared war probably should step up the heat and the firepower as all NCSoft have to do is sit and do nothing and still their goal is achieved. While the other side goal seem to be to get that IP (I think) which NCSoft holds and will take work in one way or another.

Atlantea

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 877
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2012, 05:12:33 PM »
Until then, it might be worthwhile to create a foundation, perhaps the "MMO Customer Voice Foundation" or something along those lines. Encourage those who used to subscribe to CoH to donate $15/month to said foundation, which then uses that money to support charities, sponsor public events, and keep the story as fresh as we can so we can mention "...founded when the profitable game, City of Heroes, was closed and its fanbase treated like crap..." every time we show up to support anything.

We should look into next year's Desert Bus, and Child's Play, and other geek-community-organized charities. We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending - and we should act like heroes working to build awareness of the dread villain NCSoft.

Because that's how you do this right; you make them feel it in the market until they are driven to reform...or driven out of it. Not through creating new ways to use violence, but through using the system as it is and thus enforcing the power of the invisible hand.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are the invisible hand. And I think I have a hero to make when CoH is restored, or the Phoenix Project is released. 8)


I wish to SECOND on the brilliant nature of this idea!

THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2012, 05:25:17 PM »
"They are the enemy... that's what makes this a war...."

Uh... Drake? While I appreciate your enthusiasm, I'm ex-military. For the record -- this is not a war! Nobody plans to do awful things to NCSoft personnel. I won't be a party to anything "redside" and I'm confident I speak for the majority here.

Now, that said, they have made themselves our adversary, and our objective is to liberate CoH from them. We will pursue all legal avenues, we will speak the truth about NCSoft loudly, and we will do these things for however long it takes, until we are allowed to return to Atlas Park.

(I'm covering our butts here, all. Work with me.  :) )
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 05:56:39 PM by Colette »

srmalloy

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 450
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2012, 05:53:14 PM »
"They are the enemy... that's what makes this a war...."

Uh... Drake? I'm ex-military. For the record -- this is not a war! Nobody plans to do awful things to NCSoft personnel. I won't be a party to anything "redside" and I'm confident I speak for the majority here.

Now, that said, they have made themselves our adversary, and our objective is to liberate CoH from them. We will pursue all legal avenues, we will speak the truth about NCSoft loudly, and we will do these things for however long it takes, until we are allowed to return to Atlas Park.

That we do not -- and will not -- engage in any actual physical violence against NCSoft -- although the idea of strapping NCSoft management into harnesses like the one Alex wore in "A Clockwork Orange" and make them watch the entire run of "I Love Lucy" raises a fiendish giggle -- doesn't make it any less a war. If it came down to physical violence, we would be invalidating our own position. Instead, we need to follow Sun Tzu's directions: "...to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; ..." and "Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible as Heaven and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun and moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four seasons, they pass away to return once more." We don't have the strength or power to beat NCSoft in a knock-down drag-out fight; but because they are dependent on customers and public perception for their income and value, if we can make people question whether NCSoft deserves their patronage, that will weaken them and make them more amenable to selling CoH.

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2012, 06:07:01 PM »
"We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending...."

Interesting! What sort of conventions do NCSoft or Nexon attend? I had thought they would not be attending any in the west since they're not "focused on the western market." And our Korean membership appears to be nonexistent. Some silent, well-behaved picketers bearing "Save CoH" signs doing slow circuits around NCSoft or Nexon at their next western convention appearance would certainly make a point.

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2012, 06:16:26 PM »
Now, that said, they have made themselves our adversary, and our objective is to liberate CoH from them.
*bolding emphasis added*

Apropos of nothing save amusement value, and please read nothing more than that into my comment, but...

Did you know that the devil's common name of "Satan" literally means "Adversary?"

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2012, 06:39:36 PM »
"We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending...."

Interesting! What sort of conventions do NCSoft or Nexon attend? I had thought they would not be attending any in the west since they're not "focused on the western market." And our Korean membership appears to be nonexistent. Some silent, well-behaved picketers bearing "Save CoH" signs doing slow circuits around NCSoft or Nexon at their next western convention appearance would certainly make a point.

Come to think of it, do they even really attend cons? I mean outside the cons of their own products where they send a relatively local representative to? I mean do an actual NCSOft or Nexon decision maker aka someone with decision making power over the overall corporation actually attend those things?

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2012, 07:58:40 PM »
Come to think of it, do they even really attend cons? I mean outside the cons of their own products where they send a relatively local representative to? I mean do an actual NCSOft or Nexon decision maker aka someone with decision making power over the overall corporation actually attend those things?
Whether it's just a poor peon to man the ad booth or the CEO of NCSoft himself is actually irrelevant to the need to have a presence wherever they are. The purpose is not to be seen by the management of NCSoft, but by the crowd of con attendees. To have people see, at the same time they're seeing a new shiny put out by NCSoft, a group of people explaining just why they should turn away and not consider the product at all.

Because even if it's a poor picked-on peon, when he goes back and tells his boss that business was way down because people were turned off by this group talking about how the game he was there to promote is already on its death bed, his bosses will be disturbed. And they'll tell their bosses. And the media might cover it, which would make sure their bosses' bosses also saw it, and ask them about it.

And so the black eye festers.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2012, 08:12:03 PM »
Whether it's just a poor peon to man the ad booth or the CEO of NCSoft himself is actually irrelevant to the need to have a presence wherever they are. The purpose is not to be seen by the management of NCSoft, but by the crowd of con attendees. To have people see, at the same time they're seeing a new shiny put out by NCSoft, a group of people explaining just why they should turn away and not consider the product at all.

Because even if it's a poor picked-on peon, when he goes back and tells his boss that business was way down because people were turned off by this group talking about how the game he was there to promote is already on its death bed, his bosses will be disturbed. And they'll tell their bosses. And the media might cover it, which would make sure their bosses' bosses also saw it, and ask them about it.

And so the black eye festers.

oh in that case by now they had to already have heard of us so that wouldnt even be news to to them anymore but in the end, yea the "black eye" festers, if the goal is to merely keep the black eye fresh. But with no viable solution presented by said group who goal seem to only ensure this black eye fester or goal only benefits this said group with no regards to the company, they will probably just learn to deal with it.

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2012, 08:23:00 PM »
Yeah... learn to deal with protesters from their audience turning up at conventions, and embarrassing them in front of every game manufacturer and potential investor in the place. Laugh with me! MWAHHH-HAHAAAHAAAAaaaa...!

...why yes, I have been practicing that. Thanks for noticing.

Atlantea

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 877
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2012, 08:29:21 PM »
Yeah... learn to deal with protesters from their audience turning up at conventions, and embarrassing them in front of every game manufacturer and potential investor in the place. Laugh with me! MWAHHH-HAHAAAHAAAAaaaa...!

...why yes, I have been practicing that. Thanks for noticing.

Ah! Another devotee of the Vernon Von Grun school of evil laughter! MUA HA HA HA HA HA!!!! We'll show them! We'll SHOW THEM ALL!!!! HA HA HA HA HA!!!  *COUGHCOUGHCOUGH* 

Ahem... scuze me. Got carried away there for a moment. 


Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2012, 08:41:10 PM »
Yeah, the point of the effort is to prove wrong the assumption that is doubtless in place: "Hunker down, ignore it, and now that their game is gone, they will go away."

We have to prove that wrong. The longer we persist, the fresher the black eye is 2, 6, 12 months from now, the more NCSoft will have to strain to explain it to their peers, and the more other MMO publishers will take this very seriously when they look at how they're going to handle their own games, their own communities.

TonyV

  • Titan Staff
  • Elite Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,175
    • Paragon Wiki
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2012, 09:09:17 PM »
I'd have posted it earlier, but feel certain even today, that many will not like it.  I'm sorry if I offend anyone.

I am SO banning you for this!

not...

(Was that really a worry?)

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2012, 09:16:39 PM »
Yeah, the point of the effort is to prove wrong the assumption that is doubtless in place: "Hunker down, ignore it, and now that their game is gone, they will go away."

We have to prove that wrong. The longer we persist, the fresher the black eye is 2, 6, 12 months from now, the more NCSoft will have to strain to explain it to their peers, and the more other MMO publishers will take this very seriously when they look at how they're going to handle their own games, their own communities.

yeah.

By now, they surely know what is going on that is for sure. How they respond to that is up to them.

but given they way the closing of this game was an anomaly it seems, I think most of the publishers knew what would happen if thye done it the way NCSoft done it and thus none that I know of and from what has been said, none has done so. It's NCSoft that have to see the error and maybe in the future not do it again in the same manner.

I dont like all the secrect stuff or stuff treated like top secret material when it dont have to be. If there was a reason for closing, details. If there is a reason for not selling, details. If there are negotiations going, details. If the negotiations failed, details. This is regardless of the company, person, entity, group, etc. 90% of the time, the player base know it's a buisness with money that has to be made and will understand if giving the details.


Out of curiosity who are these peers they must explain this to at this point? Are you meaning other game publishers, internal peers who should and probably already know the just of what is happening, the media which seems the word is slowly but surely getting out to, or stockholders who dont know about this decision at least on closing of paragon studios by now would be very strange for serious shareholders and investors and a mistake on an amatuer level to not know the financial moves that the company you are invested in are making, or who or what?

 But I think a player based game that is in the works have the chance to make the greatest impact than anything. It is a chance that not many communities get a chance to partake and or be a part of or have the people with the know how, skill, and will to do it. If or rather when it comes to fruitation, we then can show them how it can be done, create a loyal fan base, make some cash, and still not screw them over in the end. This will not be judged on when things are going well but when mess hits the fan when the decisions that may not be popular must be made for the greater good of the game and or company. When the game is not covering the running costs and how to cut things and or change stuff so that it will cover those running costs. One complaint in CO chat on COX is that CO doesnt have many updates. But updates cost money, personnel cost money, even fixing bugs cost money and would thye be happy if more updates came out at the expense of killing off the game? Or if the way to keep the game running was to cut back on updates and the player base would be happy, then why the complaints in the first place? Remember it was said that COX was the most profitable SuperHeroMMO out there and fro mthe sheets that have been provided it wasnt much, so I can only imagine the razor thin profits CO is running on.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 09:25:53 PM by JaguarX »

DrakeGrimm

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2012, 12:36:31 AM »
fair enough. But if this is war, those that declared war probably should step up the heat and the firepower as all NCSoft have to do is sit and do nothing and still their goal is achieved. While the other side goal seem to be to get that IP (I think) which NCSoft holds and will take work in one way or another.

Several projects are in the works. Just have the popcorn ready. Gonna be a hell of a show, I have my way. Our City is gone. We are not. Short of shady assassination attempts, I can't think of a single thing NCSoft can do to stop us, now.


(All assassinations must be scheduled ahead of time, and I'll need those forms in triplicate NCSoft.)
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

"We put ourselves in "the attitude of heroes"--and we all became a little more heroic." - VV

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2012, 01:08:33 AM »
Several projects are in the works. Just have the popcorn ready. Gonna be a hell of a show, I have my way. Our City is gone. We are not. Short of shady assassination attempts, I can't think of a single thing NCSoft can do to stop us, now.


(All assassinations must be scheduled ahead of time, and I'll need those forms in triplicate NCSoft.)

which reminds me. I'm fresh out of popcorn. Better head to the store and get some more before I miss something.

johnrobey

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
  • CoH global: @Kristoff von Gelmini
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2012, 12:58:45 PM »
I am SO banning you for this!

not...

(Was that really a worry?)

LOL and thanks!  I appreciate what you and others posted in reply.  I really felt I had to say it, even as I expected to get flamed for it and even questioned myself about offering that opinion to a grieving community.  I'm really glad to see people having discussions here as well as reaching out to one another, commiserating our loss.  I probably would have felt less trepidacious altogether were it not for what I saw on the official CoH forums those last few weeks.  Even amid cherished memories and other great stuff, much of what I saw there was ugly and toxic.  (and, yeah, I just wrote a lot of that off as how those individuals were grieving and coping with their loss.)

I hope I never become Unicorn-y and will be perusing these forums for ways I can help the Pancakes at NCSoft to part with the IP and look forward to the day I can log in again.
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi         "In every generation there has to be some fool who will speak the truth as he sees it." -- Boris Pasternak
"Where They Have Burned Books They Will End In Burning Human Beings" -- Heinrich Heine

healix

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,695
  • Every good friend was once a stranger
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2012, 01:20:53 AM »
JR, you are kind, considerate, intelligent and often the voice of reason. I can't imagine anyone commenting about a post of yours in this way:


Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2012, 01:31:26 AM »
JR, I for one appreciate your circumspection and consideration.

Yeah, toward the last, the official boards were a cess-pit. I'm glad they're gone, though the loss of things like all our guides will be hard to replace.

Again, I have no interest in "hating" NCSoft either, but as they have made themselves our adversaries, I'm afraid I dont think we can afford to be sympathetic to them. We must do what it takes (within law and ethics) to get the job done, then move on. And we have so few tools at our disposal!

Mandrake

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 100
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2012, 01:45:08 AM »
Although there is the *possibility* that *somebody* HTTracked the forums *before* they were shutdown and have about 41.36 GB stored off on a server...
Just sayin... it's possible...

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2012, 02:14:48 AM »
Although there is the *possibility* that *somebody* HTTracked the forums *before* they were shutdown and have about 41.36 GB stored off on a server...
Just sayin... it's possible...
A whole bunch of somebodies, including archive.org.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Colette

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2012, 05:12:46 AM »
Guides... love those guides. Wrote a couple I'm proud of m'self. Happy now.

Mandrake

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 100
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2012, 05:42:36 AM »
A whole bunch of somebodies, including archive.org.

Indeed. There should be plenty of browse-able backups available methinks.

johnrobey

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
  • CoH global: @Kristoff von Gelmini
Re: Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2012, 12:57:05 PM »
As usual, this community continues to impress me with continued compassion and warmth, as well as my own personal boggle over the collective IT-competence and successes in preserving so much that otherwise was lost.  Thank you!   8)
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi         "In every generation there has to be some fool who will speak the truth as he sees it." -- Boris Pasternak
"Where They Have Burned Books They Will End In Burning Human Beings" -- Heinrich Heine