Reopen Negotiations...Here is Why

[dwturducken]

Your restaurant analogy, while fitting, still doesn't warrant a rude response. I might tip a penny, just for the insult, but I would never return to that restaurant, as well as advise everyone to avoid it at any opportunity. And always polite.

[Mandrake]

I've argued with myself over all of this for some time while in recovery and the same two things seem basic to me as far as 'why' - both are the lame old excuses:
1) Bury it so it can't compete with anything else they currently have, or will in the future produce. Thereby restricting playerbase from one game for others.
2) It's ours... so nyah! By default we simply do not want to sell it to you out of spite for the fact you are a) 'just users' and b) are now actually causing us damage in the marketplace.

It doesn't matter that they are Korean, Japanese, Americanese, Candianese, or Europanese. I think they are just ticked off that they have been actually affected by 'a bunch of lowbies'. This is all a serious insult to their egos and it is unfortunately going to take a bit more damage to those egos and their pocketbooks to shake this all loose.

I think if VV and company are successful in getting Disney or some other major player involved in actually making a bid, that will most likely be enough to add a 'reputable way out' for them that they will jump at the chance to do so. To sell an IP to a larger and famous name could have all sorts of marketing angles for them to repair their image while appeasing the majority of the community at the same time.

A lot of IFs but ... if we can pull off any kind of name, Disney or otherwise, I think we have this one in the bag. NCsoft is now seriously damaged not just in reputation but be it by work or by divine intervention, also in the marketplace. This is really our time to shine.

Here's to a successful mish! May we trounce the hell out of those Carnies!

[johnrobey]

Yep, it's another long post from me but perhaps one of my last.  What's below was written a couple of days ago as I grappled with my feelings and tried even to empathize with NCSoft.  I'd have posted it earlier, but feel certain even today, that many will not like it.  I'm sorry if I offend anyone.

I was reminded by recent contact with NCSoft Account Services (over a refund request which they honored) that I've always had polite, professional, even excellent customer service from NCSoft employees, ranging from Account Services to Technical Support to Game Staff.  Really, I'd be quite happy still with NCSoft IF they hadn't closed the game and laid off Paragon Studios.  My issue is only with the executives who made the decision, and even then, I'm reminded that their primary job is to produce Profit, as much of it as they can legally.  While I don't like City of Heroes closing for a moment, once reports came in that CoH was profitable, the only reason for "strategic realignment" in my mind was they'd thought of a way to earn larger profits (or position themselves to do so) and in pursuit of these goals they felt they had to close City of Heroes. 

Obviously, I have no idea what the strategic realignment is, nor why sacrificing CoH and Paragon Studios was required to achieve it.  It was maddening as it became ever more inexplicable.  Facts were reported, and fans of CoH with Finance expertise chimed in while I tried to gain insight into what City of Heroes did for me and those I'd connected with in-game.  I even had niggling feelings of compassion for the bosses (yes, pun intended) doing this.  Just because I could not fathom their reasons personally, did not mean their reasons were invalid.  There was no way for NCSoft to announce the decision to close CoH and PS that would have set well with me.  My personal satisfaction would have required sufficiently low numbers that they could honestly say (and have it verifiable) "Look, we're sorry, but this is costing us more than it's bringing in."  Even then, unrealistic optimist that I am at times, I would have wished for an opportunity to remedy that problem.  But face it, corporations don't operate like this.  (Please feel free to cite examples contradicting this, for I'd love to know about them.)

No, I honestly could not get all that worked up and "into" hating NCSoft.  Yes, I never liked their Public Relations messages to us--they felt glib and opaque--and even now, I'm not certain that's an entirely fair characterization.  Nothing they could say had much chance of making a dent in how I felt.  I can imagine (my imagination only) a Korean business executive (or any executive, regardless of nationality) thinking to himself (because he's too polite to tell me directly) "What's wrong with you?  I'm a businessman, you're an American.  As an American, I'd rather hoped you understood implicitly that my job is to create profit for my corporation." This hypothetical businessman might even have sentimental feelings about City of Heroes.  He might have remembered the days when he thought, "CoH is the next great thing for my company! It'll be mega!!"  He might have even liked and had fondness for Western genre superheroes and/or the Paragon Studios personnel.  But as a businessman those feelings, hypothetical though they are, make no difference to the bottom line of his enterprise, and he has to make the tough decisions even if he doesn't necessarily like what it entails.

I realize I'm going out on a limb offering a hypothetical case and acting as apologist for NCSoft.  Keep in mind also that Fansy told us there are people in NCSoft sympathetic to us, perhaps many.  They may have had insight into how we felt and how the kids felt.  Thanks to the initiatives of Capes & Masks and letter writing, we let them know unambiguously.  They even took the strategic risk of responding to us.

In reading the numerous articles written about CoH and this community's saga, my sense is that this is a systemic problem for MMORPGs and their publishers.  Each of these companies addresses this problem differently, with some able to provide their still-desired products with few production costs but also with few or no upgrades.  Short of the executives disclosing their full reasons (not their job, other than to shareholders) all one can do is conjecture, analyze and assess the assets of each corporation for why.  I won't pretend to know to what extent corporate culture factors into this or other cultural influences.  The CoH I played attracted players from around the world.  I liked that we were international, multi-cultural, diverse in every respect yet teamed up to be virtual Super Heroes (or villains) sharing our enjoyment of City of Heroes.

I think Ms. Lackey and Team Wildcard scored a direct hit with the Korean Times article:  http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2012/12/602_126197.html  But we are also post-Sunset.  The legal entanglements have I hope vanished.  NCSoft has had an entire FIVE business days to consider the matter. (Okay, longer, they knew sunset was coming.)  We know without specifics that business analysis and negotiations take time for parties on both sides of the table.

I urge everyone with lingering feelings of resentment for NCSoft to consider their side for a moment.  Please take your feelings of anger or even hostility and put them to constructive purpose.  Continue the fight to Save City of Heroes!  Support Team Wildcard and any other initiatives that look reasonable to you.  Thank you.

P.S. a friend whom I consider an expert in the industry estimates it would take six months minimum for a complete clean re-boot of City of Heroes  While I hope we get CoH back, personally I don't think it's going to be any time soon.   Apologies again to those who'll not have enjoyed reading this.

[Mandrake]

Yep, it's another long post from me but perhaps one of my last.  What's below was written a couple of days ago as I grappled with my feelings and tried even to empathize with NCSoft.  I'd have posted it earlier, but feel certain even today, that many will not like it.  I'm sorry if I offend anyone.
.... *snip*

I didn't read anything offensive in your post at all. This is a pretty open forum so I don't think that posting your opinion is likely to earn you any -1 points - especially when presented in such a reasonable manner. I agree with a lot of what you said and disagree with some of it. Pretty common theme of discussion I think :)

Laterz
Manny

[healix]

I am not going to allow NCSoft to live in my head, rent free. I don't hate them. What's done is done, and now we just need to get our City back. People are working hard on that and it gives me hope. Making silly memes is just a way to vent....our wounds are still hurting from the closure.

[Surelle]

I've played Dungeon Runners and Tabula Rasa (and I went through the whole "NCSoft fakes a letter of resignation from Lord British then closes his game down while he's away" thing) as well as CoH, so I can see NCSoft with all their warts.  There are no rose-colored glasses here.  Not to mention that up until CoH's closure announcement, I was still playing Aion and had played Lineage 2 over the years as well.

NCSoft goes for the up-front box fees in NA and EU, then leaves their few remaining titles that haven't been shut down altogether just languishing  in the west.  Aion and Lineage 2 are absolutely overrun with gold farmers and lag and always have been, even when they were P2P.  They have to grind the heck out of the Asians to turn any profit there, as they only pay pennies per hour to play from bongs (internet cafes), and those players don't buy the game boxes or pay $15 a month.  And their pennies for their gaming hours roll over into the next month(s) if left unused.  But here, we do pay through the nose, and yet they make no adjustments in the horrid leveling curves or almost complete lack of drops/horrible RNG to compensate for the culture clash.

Heck, Aion NA doesn't even have a public test server:  Buggy, exploit-ridden, messed-up patches are routinely put directly through to the live servers without any public testing whatsoever.  Not to mention that NCSoft recently doubled the leveling curve (made it take twice as long to level) from 50-60 in Aion NA, plus made it take twice as long to level crafting from the get-go, also making it cost twice as much.  Then, while ignoring the longstanding gold farmers and horrible lag (North Americans have to run Leatrix or pay for other lag-reducing services to even ping at 200-300 *on North American servers*), they jacked up the prices of XP pots in Aion NA's cash shop instead.  End of story.

And they wonder why Aion has taken such a nosedive in their NA/EU profit reports.

I could go on and on, but I've already made my opinion known, and everyone has the right to their unenlightened fantasies.  I'm not mad when people imagine pretend scenarios where NCSoft actually cares, because they obviously don't how just how badly NC has really behaved over the years, but their imaginations don't change my actual experiences in the slightest.  And NCSoft allowing new CoH power sets to launch and approving Issue 24 to be run on the test server and then pulling the rug out from under everyone (both dev and player alike) a day or two later smacks of a brutish knee-jerk reaction, period.

And when reading glassdoor.com, a website by employees about their employers, this is exactly how NCSoft Korea is described:  They're a company that gives knee-jerk "KILL YOU NOW" reactions and is largely estranged from its western player base.

But I don't need to read glassdoor.com; I already know from bitter experience exactly what NCSoft has really been like to deal with over the years.  I just pity those innocents who as of yet obviously do not.

[Segev]

It may surprise some people who've read my posts decrying attitudes of taking legal action to try to force NCSoft and other companies to "treat their customers right," but I agree with TonyV here.

We played this exactly as genteel as we should. We have acted with the utmost decorum without weakness. We started by trying to be polite. We did research into their cultural norms and attempted to follow them, and demonstrate that they were...missing an opportunity. We slowly ramped up the pressure as their attitude remained and became more dismissive. We made effort to understand, but we are not (as a general rule) Korean, and to smile and nod to protect the kibun of those behaving in a fashion that upsets us is not our way. In a way, however, we are exercising Korean kibun by reacting with the anger we are demonstrating.

Unlike the stereotypical kibun-restoring tantrum of their culture, however, we are products of Western society; we don't get mad and we don't get even: we channel our anger into making it work.

We MUST keep up the pressure, and we must continue to make the story new, to keep it in the public eye. NCSoft must feel this as a perpetual drag, and we must actively keep an eye on whether they really are turning to Nexon to do their Western publication from here on out. If they are, Nexon needs to feel the heat every bit as strongly. NCSoft must be made - through nothing but customer-based word of mouth - a pariah in all Western markets. A pariah so stained with shame that no company that wishes to do business here wants anything to do with them.

While I've argued strenuously against passing new laws or taking legal action against NCSoft or companies in general to force them at gunpoint (because, ultimately, that's what the law is; legalized use of force), I agree they've acted abominably and must be made to pay...within the system of market economics. Which is what this effort is, and it's doing a great job.

We've hit the hardest part, now, though: we must keep up the positive pressure on Disney and other TF:HM targets, and we must increase the volume and scope of our anti-NCSoft campaign. We must stay rigorously informed, so we know every move they make in any even semi-public way. NCSoft needs to realize that this isn't just a PR black eye; it's a styptic infection that's never going to heal. Their potential business partners must be made to see that it's contagious.

This isn't a boycott. This is a word-of-mouth campaign designed to make all potential customers aware of the hazards of doing business with NCSoft under their current model.

If they want us to stop, they have but to act like a responsible and customer-focused company, and sell the IP that they no longer wish to support.

Until then, it might be worthwhile to create a foundation, perhaps the "MMO Customer Voice Foundation" or something along those lines. Encourage those who used to subscribe to CoH to donate $15/month to said foundation, which then uses that money to support charities, sponsor public events, and keep the story as fresh as we can so we can mention "...founded when the profitable game, City of Heroes, was closed and its fanbase treated like crap..." every time we show up to support anything.

We should look into next year's Desert Bus, and Child's Play, and other geek-community-organized charities. We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending - and we should act like heroes working to build awareness of the dread villain NCSoft.

Because that's how you do this right; you make them feel it in the market until they are driven to reform...or driven out of it. Not through creating new ways to use violence, but through using the system as it is and thus enforcing the power of the invisible hand.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are the invisible hand. And I think I have a hero to make when CoH is restored, or the Phoenix Project is released. 8)

[Colette]

JohnRobey, while I don't like to contradict people, I must disagree. I'm not concerned about NCSoft's feelings, systemic problems, corporate culture or how courteous or rude anybody is on the phone. I'm focused only on getting the job done, by any legal means. I advise you all to do likewise.

We are SaveCoH. NCSoft will surrender Paragon. "Sentimental feelings" are irrelevant. Resistance is futile.

[Illusionss]

"...here in the west respect is something that has to be earned."

Though we're falling into a tangent, I gotta amend that. Here, everyone gets respect until they lose it. Fair 'nuff?

They lost any respect I might have had by their languid wavings-away of legitimate offers to buy the IP. So, they had it - and then they were rude, so they lost my respect.

They are going to sit on this IP just out of sheer spite.

Now: I am not advocating actual, outright rudeness in return. BUT, they had the chance to win back at least some of our respect by not acting like nyah-nyah nether orifices about this whole thing.... but no, they want to be ugly. So they lost my respect.

They can regain some of it by coming to the table and accepting a decent offer to sell the IP. I would not bet $5 that this will happen! I bet those servers are already wiped and repurposed. They're going to have to earn my respect again - I am not holding my breath over that happening, though. i think it will be a cold day in hell before they care about the respect of any Westerner.

At this point I want them out of business, so that an emulator can go unchallenged. That might be rude, but right now i see them as an obstacle in our way back to our beloved characters. They can change my assessment anytime. They can feel free to do so. Please do.

I dare 'em.

[DrakeGrimm]

JohnRobey, while I don't like to contradict people, I must disagree. I'm not concerned about NCSoft's feelings, systemic problems, corporate culture or how courteous or rude anybody is on the phone. I'm focused only on getting the job done, by any legal means. I advise you all to do likewise.

We are SaveCoH. NCSoft will surrender Paragon. "Sentimental feelings" are irrelevant. Resistance is futile.

They are the enemy. Until such time as they release City's IP, code, servers, and accounts to a responsible party who agrees to maintain the franchise in a mature and reasonable manner, they get no mercy, and no quarter.

[Felderburg]

They either couldn't understand or couldn't be bothered to make the effort to understand the difference between Korean and Western cultures, and how actions that may be highly courteous in Korea are massively insulting in the US. And that is an even bigger insult -- that NCSoft has declared repeatedly how they intend to expand into the Western market, but assume that everyone in the world is going to act like proper Koreans should act, so they don't have to bother figuring out other markets.

I'm glad you posted this; I was going to say something along those lines, but this was worded much better than mine. It's all well and good to understand their culture, but they have to make an effort to understand ours as well.

Until then, it might be worthwhile to create a foundation, perhaps the "MMO Customer Voice Foundation" or something along those lines. Encourage those who used to subscribe to CoH to donate $15/month to said foundation, which then uses that money to support charities, sponsor public events, and keep the story as fresh as we can so we can mention "...founded when the profitable game, City of Heroes, was closed and its fanbase treated like crap..." every time we show up to support anything.

We should look into next year's Desert Bus, and Child's Play, and other geek-community-organized charities. We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending - and we should act like heroes working to build awareness of the dread villain NCSoft.

Because that's how you do this right; you make them feel it in the market until they are driven to reform...or driven out of it. Not through creating new ways to use violence, but through using the system as it is and thus enforcing the power of the invisible hand.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are the invisible hand. And I think I have a hero to make when CoH is restored, or the Phoenix Project is released. 8)

This is brilliant! A player made BBB type of group to keep MMO companies in check. That is legit, and even if it's the only thing that comes out of CoH's closing, it'd be better than nothing.

[JaguarX]

I thought negotiations were still ongoing but no details about said negotiations can be given due to NDA and other stuff and thus the status of these negots. cannot be released to the public but there are few here with inside information of exactly what is going on but cant share said information due to said NDAs beyond that these negots are still ongoing.

On side note, be careful when delving into placing Korean culture to things like this. It's about as relevant as saying that american corporate culture and american everyday people culture is one of the same when in actuallity they are very different. Hell, many americans dont understand and or dont like american corporate culture. If american corporation was any reflection of american society then american society would be viewed as cold calculating, would sell their momma out for a dollar, and could care less about effects on lives of others as long as money is to be made, only care about their own bottom line and would sit on a pile of money and feel not a bit of remorse if everyone else starved to death. Last I checked that dont describe most american people at all, but attributing corporate culture to korean culture just because the corporation just happen to be ran by koreans is about doing the same as described above.


And if NCSoft is truely the enemy, then expect them to resist and cannot or rather it would be very illogical to be upset at all for their current actions. I think some people have no idea how they view NCSoft, all they know is that they are angry. They want them to listen to them and give up the IP yet, they are supposed to be the enemy. I dont get it. But it may not be meant for me to get it.

[DrakeGrimm]

I thought negotiations were still ongoing but no details about said negotiations can be given due to NDA and other stuff and thus the status of these negots. cannot be released to the public but there are few here with inside information of exactly what is going on but cant share said information due to said NDAs beyond that these negots are still ongoing.

On side note, be careful when delving into placing Korean culture to things like this. It's about as relevant as saying that american corporate culture and american everyday people culture is one of the same when in actuallity they are very different. Hell, many americans dont understand and or dont like american corporate culture. If american corporation was any reflection of american society then american society would be viewed as cold calculating, would sell their momma out for a dollar, and could care less about effects on lives of others as long as money is to be made, only care about their own bottom line and would sit on a pile of money and feel not a bit of remorse if everyone else starved to death. Last I checked that dont describe most american people at all, but attributing corporate culture to korean culture just because the corporation just happen to be ran by koreans is about doing the same as described above.


And if NCSoft is truely the enemy, then expect them to resist and cannot or rather it would be very illogical to be upset at all for their current actions. I think some people have no idea how they view NCSoft, all they know is that they are angry. They want them to listen to them and give up the IP yet, they are supposed to be the enemy. I dont get it. But it may not be meant for me to get it.

That's what makes this a war. Plain and simple.

[JaguarX]

That's what makes this a war. Plain and simple.

fair enough. But if this is war, those that declared war probably should step up the heat and the firepower as all NCSoft have to do is sit and do nothing and still their goal is achieved. While the other side goal seem to be to get that IP (I think) which NCSoft holds and will take work in one way or another.

[Atlantea]

Until then, it might be worthwhile to create a foundation, perhaps the "MMO Customer Voice Foundation" or something along those lines. Encourage those who used to subscribe to CoH to donate $15/month to said foundation, which then uses that money to support charities, sponsor public events, and keep the story as fresh as we can so we can mention "...founded when the profitable game, City of Heroes, was closed and its fanbase treated like crap..." every time we show up to support anything.

We should look into next year's Desert Bus, and Child's Play, and other geek-community-organized charities. We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending - and we should act like heroes working to build awareness of the dread villain NCSoft.

Because that's how you do this right; you make them feel it in the market until they are driven to reform...or driven out of it. Not through creating new ways to use violence, but through using the system as it is and thus enforcing the power of the invisible hand.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are the invisible hand. And I think I have a hero to make when CoH is restored, or the Phoenix Project is released. 8)

I wish to SECOND on the brilliant nature of this idea!

THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

[Colette]

"They are the enemy... that's what makes this a war...."

Uh... Drake? While I appreciate your enthusiasm, I'm ex-military. For the record -- this is not a war! Nobody plans to do awful things to NCSoft personnel. I won't be a party to anything "redside" and I'm confident I speak for the majority here.

Now, that said, they have made themselves our adversary, and our objective is to liberate CoH from them. We will pursue all legal avenues, we will speak the truth about NCSoft loudly, and we will do these things for however long it takes, until we are allowed to return to Atlas Park.

(I'm covering our butts here, all. Work with me.  :) )

[srmalloy]

"They are the enemy... that's what makes this a war...."

Uh... Drake? I'm ex-military. For the record -- this is not a war! Nobody plans to do awful things to NCSoft personnel. I won't be a party to anything "redside" and I'm confident I speak for the majority here.

Now, that said, they have made themselves our adversary, and our objective is to liberate CoH from them. We will pursue all legal avenues, we will speak the truth about NCSoft loudly, and we will do these things for however long it takes, until we are allowed to return to Atlas Park.

That we do not -- and will not -- engage in any actual physical violence against NCSoft -- although the idea of strapping NCSoft management into harnesses like the one Alex wore in "A Clockwork Orange" and make them watch the entire run of "I Love Lucy" raises a fiendish giggle -- doesn't make it any less a war. If it came down to physical violence, we would be invalidating our own position. Instead, we need to follow Sun Tzu's directions: "...to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; ..." and "Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible as Heaven and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun and moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four seasons, they pass away to return once more." We don't have the strength or power to beat NCSoft in a knock-down drag-out fight; but because they are dependent on customers and public perception for their income and value, if we can make people question whether NCSoft deserves their patronage, that will weaken them and make them more amenable to selling CoH.

[Colette]

"We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending...."

Interesting! What sort of conventions do NCSoft or Nexon attend? I had thought they would not be attending any in the west since they're not "focused on the western market." And our Korean membership appears to be nonexistent. Some silent, well-behaved picketers bearing "Save CoH" signs doing slow circuits around NCSoft or Nexon at their next western convention appearance would certainly make a point.

[Segev]

Now, that said, they have made themselves our adversary, and our objective is to liberate CoH from them.

*bolding emphasis added*

Apropos of nothing save amusement value, and please read nothing more than that into my comment, but...

Did you know that the devil's common name of "Satan" literally means "Adversary?"

[JaguarX]

"We should plan for presence at cons - particularly cons NCSoft or their partners in the West will also be attending...."

Interesting! What sort of conventions do NCSoft or Nexon attend? I had thought they would not be attending any in the west since they're not "focused on the western market." And our Korean membership appears to be nonexistent. Some silent, well-behaved picketers bearing "Save CoH" signs doing slow circuits around NCSoft or Nexon at their next western convention appearance would certainly make a point.

Come to think of it, do they even really attend cons? I mean outside the cons of their own products where they send a relatively local representative to? I mean do an actual NCSOft or Nexon decision maker aka someone with decision making power over the overall corporation actually attend those things?