well things got complex.

[Aggelakis]

But someone suggest that they may not be able to sale due to marvel lawsuit, it's an empty conspiracy.

That is NOT what Joshex said. He said they won't be able to sell because Marvel's lawsuit is an active deterrent, because NCsoft is/was talking about it publicly. Neither of those are true, provably. NCsoft and Marvel settled out of court; this is all over the internet, a basic Google search will give you these results, it's not a guess. "Settled out of court" means the lawsuit is filed and done (not active). Additionally, NCsoft has never said anything about the lawsuit since saying it was completed and settled out of court.

In the meantime, he intersperses these lies false statements with total conjecture, using the phrase "in my expert opinion" - which is laughable at best.

This is why we disagree with him. It's not an expert opinion. He's saying false things - provably false things - and then rambling about things he's definitely not an expert in.

[JaguarX]

That is NOT what Joshex said. He said they won't be able to sell because Marvel's lawsuit is an active deterrent, because NCsoft is/was talking about it publicly. Neither of those are true, provably. NCsoft and Marvel settled out of court; this is all over the internet, a basic Google search will give you these results, it's not a guess. "Settled out of court" means the lawsuit is filed and done (not active). Additionally, NCsoft has never said anything about the lawsuit since saying it was completed and settled out of court.

In the meantime, he intersperses these lies false statements with total conjecture, using the phrase "in my expert opinion" - which is laughable at best.

This is why we disagree with him. It's not an expert opinion. He's saying false things - provably false things - and then rambling about things he's definitely not an expert in.

yep the case been settled out of court. But do anyone know what those settlement terms were and or are? For all we know it, one or some of the terms of that agreement from the settlement could be one of the things that is kinking up a sale. It may not be.

Unless someone know exactly what the terms of the settlement were, then I don't think it can be said in a clear precise manner that it is or is not something that affects the sale.

Yeah, claiming to be an expert is near meaningless on the internet now and days. Lot of claimed experts on stuff, from software building, but somehow don't understand the difference between ownership and license, to experts on running a business yet no known businesses in their portfolio. 

[Iron-Emerald]

*sigh* not every thing is an argument.

I said that's what the argument is, not that we're having an argument. An argument is just a discussion involving different point of views, you've arguing a point and I'm arguing a point. It doesn't mean that people are having a shouting match.

Ideally yes. But with all the reasons out there, mostly in the negative view of NCSOFT that seem to get the most agreement and taken as truth, are they actually well founded? Then again maybe it's the threshold of what is considered well founded that is different. There are people that say NCSOFT is planning on sitting on the IP like a vulture. I don't recall many posts challenging that even though there is no evidence that said NCSOFT plans on doing such a thing.
Or many say that NCSOFT saying they couldn't find a suitable buyer is false. But how do they know? Yet, they didn't get much challenge. But someone suggest that they may not be able to sale due to marvel lawsuit, it's an empty conspiracy. When in reality, none of the mentioned have any evidence to show their respective point and the prior two, it wasn't even asked for them to show any sort of evidence that they are not just creating conspiracy. It may not be double standard but it sure as hell isn't the same standard. 

It's not the same standard because you're talking about very different things. Saying that NCSoft is going to sit on the IP like a vulture is a prediction, it's the opinion that somebody has about the future, nobody can know whether it's right or wrong at this point. Joshex's initial post in this thread is about events in the past however, that's an appreciably different situation. If you're saying "this is what happened in the past" then you need to show some kind of evidence for that belief if you want it to be believed by others. If you say "this is what I think will happen in the future" then that's just a guess, people know you're not saying this is what happened, you're predicting what may happen.

The discussion about suitable buyers is a bit different as well since that hinges mostly on who somebody would consider to be 'suitable'. It's not surprising that generates angst because NCSoft and individuals are going to have a different idea on what suitable is.

Things that reinforce their idea is more likely to be taken up as truth while those that don't will be challenged.

Well yeah. People are more likely to challenge ideas they disagree with than they are to challenge ideas they agree with. I don't think that's something to worry about is it?

[JaguarX]

I said that's what the argument is, not that we're having an argument. An argument is just a discussion involving different point of views, you've arguing a point and I'm arguing a point. It doesn't mean that people are having a shouting match.
It's not the same standard because you're talking about very different things. Saying that NCSoft is going to sit on the IP like a vulture is a prediction, it's the opinion that somebody has about the future, nobody can know whether it's right or wrong at this point. Joshex's initial post in this thread is about events in the past however, that's an appreciably different situation. If you're saying "this is what happened in the past" then you need to show some kind of evidence for that belief if you want it to be believed by others. If you say "this is what I think will happen in the future" then that's just a guess, people know you're not saying this is what happened, you're predicting what may happen.

The discussion about suitable buyers is a bit different as well since that hinges mostly on who somebody would consider to be 'suitable'. It's not surprising that generates angst because NCSoft and individuals are going to have a different idea on what suitable is.
Well yeah. People are more likely to challenge ideas they disagree with than they are to challenge ideas they agree with. I don't think that's something to worry about is it?

Well it would have fit the prediction definition if it was in fact stated as I think this will happen in the future compared to how it has been stated of NCSOFT is sitting on the IP. And while it may be seem o nthe surface the marvel thing is done and over with, it may not be depending on the terms of the settlement which can last for years or could be a one time thing that is in fact over with. How much does it have on the IP who knows. Joshex guess is as good as any I seen around here. Each just guessed unless someone works in the decision making circle of NCSOFT that is able to say. It's all just guess work. Not facts. And really cant even be measured which is nearer to the fact or which is further until the facts are actually known.

And yeah even suitable have differing meanings. And none can be stated as a fact either way. Which is the point I'm making even if one may look plausible to one and less plausible to another or vice versa. As far as we know, the closest to the truth if not the truth, from the people that would know for a fact, is that they have not been able to find a suitable buyer. Yet people have stated there have been suitable buyers as if it's a fact that those buyers were actually suitable. Maybe suitable to them, but in those terms probably not suitable to the seller which they already stated is or rather was the case.   


"Well yeah. People are more likely to challenge ideas they disagree with than they are to challenge ideas they agree with. I don't think that's something to worry about is it?"

As I said, just an observation. Not saying anything wrong with it either way.

Well I jumped the gun on what you meant by argument and glad you realize that argument also mean that, a mere discussion. Usually when the word argument is thrown around here it usually mean attacks and personal insults are about to follow.

[ROBOKiTTY]

Can we lock this thread?

[Captain Electric]

Party pooper.  :-\

Josh is in the middle of his investigation....

[Floride]

I guess NCsoft is kind of like a shotgun in that respect. They pulled the trigger on November 30th, 2012. Buck shot bird shot or slug shot, the ammo sent a spray that apparently hit a few places :)

The hits being the community searching for information.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5493439

From post #218:
"They were legally required to give a minimum of 90 days notice by the laws of the State of California. And that's all that was preventing them from shutting down and pulling the plug on Aug 31st."

Sounds legit, any truth to this?

[Captain Electric]

According to the user agreement and the manual, yes.

The first MMO to put the 90-day disclaimer on their box (they actually put it on their box) was the granddaddy, Ultima Online, 16 years ago. Every MMO since that I have played has also put it somewhere on their stuff.

I have never known whether it was due to a law, or due to the fact that if MMOs just blinked out of existence when the publishers were done, PR could not possibly put enough water on the ensuing fires. If it is a law, then my suspicion is that it likely isn't related strictly to MMOs, but to electronic services generally.

When you signed up for City of Heroes, you agreed that the service could be terminated with 90 days notice.

[Captain Electric]

Although it might be worth noting, not all of the MMOs I've played were published out of California or even the U.S. and they still gave the 90 day notice.

Wondering how the heck I know such a trivial thing? It has always been a curious thing to me, which is why I've always looked for the notice.

I also look at nutrition labels to see whether I'm getting sugar or high fructose corn syrup. I'm just weird, OK?

[Taceus Jiwede]

This thread is getting a little crazy.  But I kind of get both sides.  I have to agree that people are not disagreeing with Joshex because he is saying NCSoft may not be at fault.  They are disagreeing with him because it just most likely isn't true.  Like Aggie said, its not his theories that set people off.  Its the way he presents them.  As pure and total fact.  But at the same time, let the crazy diamond shine on.  I have to admit, Joshex's posts have been driving me up the wall for months now.  It get's old when people proclaim them self as an expert in virtually every field and then their posts speak entirely to the contrary.   But I try not to go to hard on the guy cause he is just thinking outside the box.  So I am kind of torn.  I think the guy should be allowed to think and post whatever he wants.  But at the same I have lost count of Joshex's inside connections and plans that will 100% for sure no doubt or question bring back CoH.  I am honestly a little shocked it has taken this long for people to call him on it, perhaps that is why people are being a little harsh.

I also look at nutrition labels to see whether I'm getting sugar or high fructose corn syrup. I'm just weird, OK?

Unrelated but I would more so say that makes you observant then weird.

[Captain Electric]

I say enough is enough, and it's time to put my foot down.

Don't let these rational people bully you, Josh!

(And thank you, Taceus. :))

[Taceus Jiwede]

I say enough is enough, and it's time to put my foot down.

Don't let these rational people bully you, Josh!

Lol damnt Captain.  STOP MAKING ME LAUGH IM TRYING TO BE SERIOUS :p

[JaguarX]

Although it might be worth noting, not all of the MMOs I've played were published out of California or even the U.S. and they still gave the 90 day notice.

Wondering how the heck I know such a trivial thing? It has always been a curious thing to me, which is why I've always looked for the notice.

I also look at nutrition labels to see whether I'm getting sugar or high fructose corn syrup. I'm just weird, OK?

Don't worry. I read labels to.

And I read...*gasps*... EULAs and ToS too. I know, shocking.

[JaguarX]

It get's old when people proclaim them self as an expert in virtually every field and then their posts speak entirely to the contrary.

lol. Yeah. tell me about it. And I'm not talking just about Joshex.

People with "inside" information to every company but cant never name the guy or even name key personnel in the company. Everyone that know someone that know someone that know someone but cant say because it will violate laws, even though the law have been broken when they told that person in the first place. Or the promise to keep people in the loop as they use their insider to "pitch stuff" then it goes dark and nothing more until people start to wonder "soooo....is this thing still on or not?"  Yeah unless Joshex posts under many different names, there have been a lot of Joshex like post hanging about and people just eat it up. Twice already at the least..

Well anyways. So I guess when people make a claim with nothing to back it up, there should be no more accusing of attacking when someone ask for evidence no matter who is saying it? Meaning even if it fits in the current popular yet unproven belief, it's just being, as people saying when they do it to Joshex, just trying to get facts so people don't get their hopes up and dash when they realize it to not be true. Regardless if it's for or against NCSOFT? Meaning that if another statement comes up that is trying to be passed off as fact that NCSOFT have no plans for the IP, it should be challenged? Or NCSOFT is evil corporation that shut down the game for nefarious reasons or any reason outside they stated, it should be challenged is on Joshex conspiracy level without facts? The stocks went down solely because of the game closing, or they did not in fact make attempt to sale, and the various other theories fact less baseless things about the COX situation that have been passed off as fact that is and have been floating around here? All should be can be treated as Joshex type conspiracy? That would only be fair right?

Just making sure so that when one of those baseless statements are made again and I point it out, it's not an attack it's just to make sure the facts are presented and people don't get their hopes up on false information.

[Iron-Emerald]

Or people have a different view from you on what is a baseless statement or not. Either everybody thinks the same as you and also feels that there are other people who are consistently as unreliable as Joshex, but just don't say anything about those other people out of some double standard due to the type of information. Or (whether they're ultimately right or wrong), people actually believe those other statements more and don't think the speculation from Joshex is as credible as that from other people. It's rather unfair of you to try to paint things as some 'us vs them' thing. Some people here find Joshex less credible than some other posters you apparently find even less credible than Joshex. That doesn't mean your conclusion is flat out right (it doesn't mean you're wrong either) and people such as myself have double standards, it means we came to a different conclusion from you.

Personally my experience of reading these forums is that speculation from either 'side' usually does get complained about. There's been plenty of doubt cast on the successor projects at various points, complaints made that Titan haven't come up with some private servers yet, people pouring cold water over various game closure related theories and so on. I just don't come to the same conclusion as you that only Joshex is called to account for wild speculation, and on top of that to me his speculation is more wild than most. If he really is planning to hire lawyers for these sort of things I think it would be rude to not suggest to him that could be a waste of his money.

[JaguarX]

Or people have a different view from you on what is a baseless statement or not. Either everybody thinks the same as you and also feels that there are other people who are consistently as unreliable as Joshex, but just don't say anything about those other people out of some double standard due to the type of information. Or (whether they're ultimately right or wrong), people actually believe those other statements more and don't think the speculation from Joshex is as credible as that from other people. It's rather unfair of you to try to paint things as some 'us vs them' thing. Some people here find Joshex less credible than some other posters you apparently find even less credible than Joshex. That doesn't mean your conclusion is flat out right (it doesn't mean you're wrong either) and people such as myself have double standards, it means we came to a different conclusion from you.

Personally my experience of reading these forums is that speculation from either 'side' usually does get complained about. There's been plenty of doubt cast on the successor projects at various points, complaints made that Titan haven't come up with some private servers yet, people pouring cold water over various game closure related theories and so on. I just don't come to the same conclusion as you that only Joshex is called to account for wild speculation, and on top of that to me his speculation is more wild than most. If he really is planning to hire lawyers for these sort of things I think it would be rude to not suggest to him that could be a waste of his money.

Indeed.


Just as it would have been rude to not point out, as some people did, that these efforts have small chance of success. Although it was met with as if saying such a thing was beyond rude. People got called defeatist and NCSOFT shrill for simply stating that the for example the Hail Mary things were a very long shot, o r the petition was a long shot, or even the private server was a long shot. Well of course until Tony finally made a statement that these efforts were long shots. Then, it became, it's just being realistic. When people that been saying it since Sept. 2012 got flamed and called all sorts of things, some from the same people that praised Tony for later saying the same thing, for being realistic even though then it wasn't called being realistic. It was called, being an NCSOFT shill and a defeatist.

[Floride]

Josh suddenly discovered a possible explanation for what happened and shared it. I said basically the same thing a while back and got reamed for it too because I, like Josh, was stating it as fact - just cuz I was all like, "Woohoo!" excited to have possibly figured it out and wasn't really paying attention to my phrasing.

But truth is truth, regardless of the source.
And speculation is a possible truth, again, regardless of the source.
And there IS one fact we do KNOW about the behind-closed-doors out-of-court settlement between Marvel and NC - Marvel dropped the infringement charges.
Why? Well, if JosheX's (and Floride's, hehehehe) speculation just happens to possibly maybe almost true, then the successor games do have something to worry about.
The big comic franchises may very well be trying to eliminate games containing non-licensable, legally "generic" superheroes and villains which divert attention from their meal tickets.
Since this is a possibility, albeit not a probability, we should still err on the side of caution and prepare our successors for any possible Cease and Desists from those franchise-mongers.

And Josh, will you take back your "expert" claim already! Jag's jumping up and down on the bed (and banshee screams) is starting to wake the neighbors!

[Ohioknight]

Jag, are you trying to tell us you that your feelings have been hurt?

[MaidMercury]

That would truly stink...if true, that anyone creating a game with a hero would be sued
by Marvel.

However, there have been movies,tv shows that have generic heroes.
...and I've even bought a  gameboy of Powerpuff girls for my niece.
Don't recall Marvel sueing them.

I can't see how this could stand up in Court, by that account the term Refrigerator was trademarked,
yet there are lots of companies making refrigerators.

[JaguarX]

Josh suddenly discovered a possible explanation for what happened and shared it. I said basically the same thing a while back and got reamed for it too because I, like Josh, was stating it as fact - just cuz I was all like, "Woohoo!" excited to have possibly figured it out and wasn't really paying attention to my phrasing.

But truth is truth, regardless of the source.
And speculation is a possible truth, again, regardless of the source.
And there IS one fact we do KNOW about the behind-closed-doors out-of-court settlement between Marvel and NC - Marvel dropped the infringement charges.
Why? Well, if JosheX's (and Floride's, hehehehe) speculation just happens to possibly maybe almost true, then the successor games do have something to worry about.
The big comic franchises may very well be trying to eliminate games containing non-licensable, legally "generic" superheroes and villains which divert attention from their meal tickets.
Since this is a possibility, albeit not a probability, we should still err on the side of caution and prepare our successors for any possible Cease and Desists from those franchise-mongers.

And Josh, will you take back your "expert" claim already! Jag's jumping up and down on the bed (and banshee screams) is starting to wake the neighbors!

I dont recall anywhere in my posts is screams. I don't think I can hit banshee octaves even if I tried. As I said, it's just a simple observation that I noticed.

And no, no feelings got hurt.  Just an observation of when one person say one thing, they get the business then another person say it later and the get the praise. And while some information can be stated as fact while other cant even though it's all the same sort of speculation. 

Although I do find it strange that back in late 2012 when a person said that these efforts had slim chance of succeeding, it was considered defeatist, being in the league of NCSOFT, NCSOFT shilling, rooting for failure being negative while someone else later says the same thing and it's considered being realistic. I guess that then there were less clear thinking with the mind and more emotion than later when it was said again, thus people was more receptive of it later than earlier when it was fresh. Or, it was more of the problem with who was saying it and not what was said. And since, some people that said it wasn't the most popular folk then, it didn't matter, it was viewed negative. But then a person that is more popular said it, it was more better received. Or a mixture of both.