well things got complex.

[Joshex]

Hi titan, I've been absent a while.

things in my life have gotten very complex since I went back to college, I was intending to take legal actions to try and get CoH back again someway or another, I had a lawyer lined up but havn't had time to contact him (he'll be busy at town hall for a while anyways concerning the library)

oh well lets get this on track to City of heroes as that is where I'm posting it. I have found out some information regarding the shutdown that I intend to share.

the shutdown was due to a combination of factors.

Marvel VS NCSoft : the people at NCSoft would be happy if someone could straighten out that case on better terms. NCSoft was given a ruling by the court that it thought was a win. that seeing as Marvel at that time had no plans for an MMO of it's own NCSoft was not guilty of the charges, but an added implication from that was ignored. "if Marvel ever did develop such software City of Heroes could be served a cease and desist."

and thats what happened and why the shut down was so sudden, marvel served NCSoft with a cease and desist and refrain from conversing publically about the terms.

the case between marvel and NCSoft is still open for appeal. Naturally NCSoft is merely trying to take the verdict gracefully, but outside forces are welcomed.

I have an addess for a subpoena concerning this case supplied by our former overlords. and honestly this problem needs to be cleared up first before we can even enter into talks to get the game back.

also any plan Z projects are baiting Marvel to try and create characters like thiers and take you to court over it. if that happens I would suggest opting to reopen NCSoft's case for a further appeal allong with your own.

it is my understanding of the situation of the attempted talks of buying the IP that Paragon was given a valid price but the terms could not be met, according to this sitation the terms were simply "if you want to do this you need to settle all the discrepencies with marvel or you can't charge money for the game" and paragon's employees did not like that honestly cause they didn't have the time or money to battle Marvel over such a topic. - thats the second issue of the shutdown. the people who needed to act did not have the time nor money to do so.

NCSoft no doubt considered the cost of an appeal and with it's legal costs decided it would cost more than the game typically earns in 3 years (which is what any decent lawyer would advise against) So yes i figure there is some sort of inability to act from NCSoft's financial perspective.

it is my expert opinion that the following should be prepared before Marvel is taken on, 3 carefully prepared characters from other series and or custom made characters who are in direct violation of Marvel's likeness rights, then prepare short and decisive placating comments to illustrate that the concept of your character is entirely just emotion and feeling because those are things no company can legally own. the characters should be an expression of feelings. thats the start of the appeal.

after that you need to state that although characters similar to marvel's trademarks could be made in city, they were not made often and the moment the moderators find out the character will be 'nerfed'. now I will note this was only touched on briefly in NCSoft's case and the wording was not made to make it a definite argument against Marvel's claims so it may be a nice trump card. (moderators delete this bit if you feel necessary)

if you can prove that said costume combinations are illegal in game, you also need to prove that marvel does not exclusively own the trademark or copyrights to certain aspects such as wolvarine's claws or the hulk's green rage form. for that you'll need other prepublished characters who also untilize these 'trademark aspects'. they wont be hard to find. beastboy gorrilla form rage anyone? good old freddy kruger?

I can't say i'll definitely be able to do this as I might have to go to china soon.. so I'm dropping in all the information I have incase anyone else would like to help straighten this out.

[JaguarX]

good information.

Think the idea that the deal fell through due to something having to do with the "marvel lawsuit" came up about 10 months ago in Nov. and again in late jan or early feb. but was overshadowed by "other reasons" of the deal falling through.
Yeah, the other forgotten part is that only SOME,  not all, of marvel's claim got dismissed and no telling which claims were dismissed. 

Either way, I dont think selling the IP is as easy as turning over cash they hand you the keys things all depending on what exactly were those terms were and if the new owner were able to or willing to take responsibility for those terms or not.

But in many settlements it's standard procedure to not be able to disclose it to the public.

[Aggelakis]

it is my expert opinion

Hmmm...


------


The case between Marvel and NCsoft was settled out of court, NCsoft hasn't made any public statements about anything to do with it since that happened a bazillion (in internet time) years ago (contrary to what you've posted here), and I think you are once again reaching way out there to find something to latch on to.

[adarict]

and I think you are once again reaching way out there to find something to latch on to.

You are being far too kind.

I will refrain from my interpretation, as there is no way to NOT get banned or at least a warning if I did so.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

Hmmm...


------

*pops into thread* Quite.

The case between Marvel and NCsoft was settled out of court, NCsoft hasn't made any public statements about anything to do with it since that happened a bazillion (in internet time) years ago (contrary to what you've posted here), and I think you are once again reaching way out there to find something to latch on to.

i usually feel that the levelheadedness, accuracy, and logical rigor Joshex displays in most posts could serve as examples for others.
...
*saunters back out*

[Night-Hawk07]

So why is Champions safe? Or even DC? Ok DC makes some sense as their lawyers are probably just as good as Marvel's (especially now that they're backed by the Mouse). That's a fight they probably don't care for, but there's no way CO (even with PWE's lawyers) could stand up to Marvel/Disney.

Sorry, but unless Positron or someone else more - well, frankly - credible comes in here and says "no...no that was most definitely not the reason we were shut down.... *wink, wink* *nudge, nudge*", I'm calling BS.

[Stone Daemon]

This is actually a pretty old rumor, Joshex. Are you telling us you have some new legit information from a solid source?

[Kyriani]

I feel very uncomfortable reading Joshex's posts. The kind of uncomfortable I feel when someone is telling awkward tall tales that were already proven factually incorrect ages ago... but I feel too bad about embarrassing them to point that out in front of others. >_>

I know he wants to sound like he knows what he's talking about... but he always seems to fall just short of it. He uses enough of the right words to give a casual glancer the impression he's someone "in the know". But every instinct tells me he's full of hot air.

[General Idiot]

So why is Champions safe? Or even DC? Ok DC makes some sense as their lawyers are probably just as good as Marvel's (especially now that they're backed by the Mouse). That's a fight they probably don't care for, but there's no way CO (even with PWE's lawyers) could stand up to Marvel/Disney.

I don't know about Champions, but DCUO practically begs you to make ripoffs of DC characters. Half the costume pieces in that game are either based on or directly taken from one of their signature characters.

[dwturducken]

DCUO is its own IP. Marvel Heroes is distinct from any superhero MMO in so many ways, least of which being that it's not an MMO, but I digress. Joshex has said some pretty "out there" things, but nothing outright crazy or outlandish. I'm willing to join the Trust But Verify camp.

The fact is, Marvel had deep pockets, legally, before being purchased by Disney. We tossed around the ludicrousness of trying to go up against NCSoft early on in this movement. NCSoft is effectively in the same boat WRT Disney. It may seem far-fetched or Machiavellian, but it's damned plausible.

[Ironwolf]

Well a nice try - however here is the thing - NCSoft would LOVE someone else to shoulder that millstone if that was the case.

If they sold the game to someone else then that entity would also take on the liability. This sounds plausable if you didn't research IP  and Copyright laws.

Marvel HAD to sue Cryptic because the game made it possible to recreate Marvel characters. If you do not defend your IP it is considered open game. Marvel sued City of Heroes and got the makers to set filters and a reporting system in place to remove offending characters. At that point Marvel had done its duty by the law and defended its IP.

If someone else was to take on the game they would have to ensure Marvels stuff was safe - if not NCSoft would not have to go after you they could send screenies to Marvel and let them shut you down.

[Night-Hawk07]

I don't know about Champions, but DCUO practically begs you to make ripoffs of DC characters. Half the costume pieces in that game are either based on or directly taken from one of their signature characters.

Well, I wouldn't think DC would sue itself for allowing players to make ripoffs of their characters.

I was asking, because you can make some decent Marvel ripoffs in DCUO. I don't know how many "Spider-men" I've seen running up walls and such with the acrobatics travel power. So if Marvel still being upset over CoH was why we were shutdown, what's keeping them from "being upset" at Champions or DC, and trying to shut them down too? That's what I was getting at.

[Shenku]

This is actually a pretty old rumor, Joshex. Are you telling us you have some new legit information from a solid source?

Notice how none of the sources for his information was cited, nor links given...? That right there tells me this info is suspect...

I don't know about Champions, but DCUO practically begs you to make ripoffs of DC characters. Half the costume pieces in that game are either based on or directly taken from one of their signature characters.

The difference being that DC is not going to sue themselves because people are making ripoffs of their own characters, because honestly the judge for that case is just going to scratch his head and dismiss the case... Which is why you can even get signature character costume pieces for your characters to wear if you're lucky or rich enough to get the item(Batgirl's cape, or Wonder Girl's belt being just two examples). It was intentional that you be able to mimic the signature characters in DCUO.

So really, the risk isn't in making DC character ripoffs in DCUO, but in making Marvel characters in DCUO. Marvel could technically sue Sony/DC for the same reasons they sued Cryptic/NCSoft if they really wanted. With the Shield Weapon, for instance, someone could easily make some form of Captain America ripoff if they wanted. This is the kind of stuff their Mods need to police against much in the same way CoH's Mods were always handing out "Generic Hero 1103568" names/costumes left and right for a few months straight until people started getting the hint that copyright violations were not tolerated(and continued to do long after as quickly as people would get reported for such violations).

Of course, a big difference between DC's current risk of legal action from Marvel, and Cryptic/NCSofts situation is that DC and Marvel have a much longer history with each other, and know what they can and can't get away with by this point before causing issues with their counterpart, and I believe their lawyers are much better equipped to deal with copyright violation complaints on these scales than Cryptic or NCSoft were(especially in terms of being able to afford the legal costs). That's not to say a lawsuit won't happen over DCUO, but it would be a costly legal battle, and either side would probably rather just let it slide anyways than fight such a grueling battle in court. Besides, despite their differences, it always felt like DC and Marvel have a friendly rivalry, rather than see each other as bitter enemies.

[Joshex]

I'm saying this because I got through to NCSoft corporate in more than I hoped.

months ago when I was reminded about the case between NCSoft and marvel I sent an email to NCSoft corporate asking for information about the case seeing as they have taken down ALL information from thier website regarding it. I asked for a address to send a subpoena to as well.

I was prepared to be ignored as per usual, but recieved a reply with said address. I had to think long and hard and get all the insane ideas I normally come up with off the table for me to figure ot why NCSoft would actually reply and give me an address to appeal to.

why? because they feel they can gain something from it. which in turn suggests that they were truthful when they said they didn't want to shut down CoX, and also implies that what I said above about them wanting to take it gracefully is probably the case.

on other notes, why is CO safe? cause CO is CO.. it has enough criticisms from superhero MMO fans to make it less of a threat in Marvel's mind. that and thier lawyers haven't been able to visually recreate thier characters in as vivid a form as is necessary to justify a lawsuit. bassically, CO is not worth Marvel's time. theres just not that many fans that marvel cares about who play CO.

[Aggelakis]

i usually feel that the levelheadedness, accuracy, and logical rigor Joshex displays in most posts could serve as examples for others.

Response to bold: ...what??...

[Floride]

Response to bold: ...what??...

*Floride takes off his tinfoil hat*
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,8946.msg127984.html#msg127984

"The terms of the settlement were never released."

[Kyriani]

I'm sorry but every instinct is telling me Joshex is full of it. I apologize if I am wrong but I honestly don't think I am.

Needless to say it doesn't matter. COH isn't coming back through legit channels. It's just too old for that IMO. And barring a miracle multi-millionaire swooping to the rescue, our best hope is a private server.

[Codewalker]

So... that entire conjecture is based on solely the fact that NCSoft gave you an address for their legal department when you asked for it.

Yeah, pretty much what I expected.

[Kyriani]

So... that entire conjecture is based on solely the fact that NCSoft gave you an address for their legal department when you asked for it.

Yeah, pretty much what I expected.

I'm not even sure Joshex knows what the word "conjecture" means.

[Nightmarer]

Wasn't part of the settlement that Cryptic had to develop Marvel's MMO? I thought that's why NCSoft bought the IP and whatnot from Cryptic.

Now that'd be the heck of a lawyer the guy from Marvel who made sending a cease and desist letter whenever Marvel had an MMO as part of the settlement plus making the company you will send said letter to develop your MMO thus making possible... ah well, nevermind, it's pretty obvious, if you call NCSoft offices and someone answers that phone, it surely means... I don't dare guessing what it means, I'm sure it's too scary.