Author Topic: How are you handling the loss?  (Read 187383 times)

LT. Couper

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #240 on: January 19, 2013, 06:08:06 AM »
Still haven't let CoH out of my thoughts for one day since I found out about the Sunset (A week after the initial announcement, so I missed the Unity Rally! Ugh!!) Also, it's nearly impossible to forget it when my desktop background is the picture of Statesman's star breaking up.

Life's been fairly dull since then. In school I doodle CoH propoganda, and do a bit of creative writing (No more paper cranes for a while!) In my art classes, I've been pretty much hell bent on making every one of my projects CoH related, and as soon as I get around to it, I'll put pictures up on my DeviantArt page.
I also finally started actually played games again, but only single-player games like Fallout or Skyrim. It's just not the same though... I want to be a super hero again! There are just too many fantasy genre MMOs out there (WoW, GW/GW2, PWI, LotRO, etc.) and not enough Superhero games. I literally can't name five! Besides our Plan Zs, I can only think of CO and DCUO, and they just dont apeal to me like CoH does.
"Heroes may die, but heroism never shall." ~Cyrus "Breakneck" Thompson

Illusionss

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #241 on: January 22, 2013, 05:51:09 PM »
From Clive Barker's "Cabal," probably my favorite of his works:

"But as he climbed toward the spine of a small hill on the summit of which Midian stood, a second and plainer explanation occurred. There was nobody in Midian. [...] Midian was a ghost town.

Never in his life had he felt such desolation. He stood like a dog returned home to find its masters gone, uncertain what his life now meant or would ever mean again."

johnrobey

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #242 on: January 23, 2013, 01:03:00 AM »
I work up this morning [Sunday] at about 4:30 am. I lay there in the dark, thinking about CoX. I thought of my main, who i will probably never see again and how he was almost like a real friend to me, someone I cared about - who didnt actually exist. He was powerful, and I will never be powerful in any meaningful sense. To love him is to really love myself, for I created him. And I dont love myself much at all, so even that little bit was important.

Obviously I had been dreaming about the game, altho I didnt remember the dream. I lay there and thought about getting off the tram in Talos and flying toward the PI ferry; about passing over the Magic store, the zone music that always played, about the steep ravine down to the docks, and the Tsoo and Freaks who haunted it. Flying over the ocean, and seeing the war walls in the distance.

And I will never do those things again, most likely.

I know it is wrong of me, and perhaps indicative of a psychological failing in me, but I lay there and felt actual hate toward whoever made the decision to throw not just me, but all of us out of our safe little Eden, such an important part of my life and all of our lives. So many of us have lost so much, while theyre lounging in an office somewhere manipulating their stocks or whatever crap thing it is they are doing today. And how when it suits thier purpose, they will do the same thing all over again to another set of loyal players.

I am angry. I want revenge. I dont think they have one freaking clue what they did to us. And I want them to feel the same pain. The same loss.
What you wrote here, Illusionss, really resonates with me.  Ditto for all the posts that follow yours.  (Hi & hugs to Healix and all of you!)  No, I don't believe this is any way a "psychological failing" but rather an entirely natural and normal response to grief, especially deep grieving.  I bet none of us anticipated just how strongly we would feel were the unthinkable to happen (which did) - and that shock alone since all indicators were positive with new powersets etc available, the new Issue in open Beta, OMG why would NCSoft pull the plug like this?!?!  That only compounded our grief and sense of loss.  Is it a sense of "entitlement" when a product one has emotionally bonded with gets yanked? Possibly.  I know V.V's view from that Korean Times article.  I still think of when Coca-Cola Company yanked "old" Coke and tried selling  New Coke - and man, glad they brought Classic Coke back in a hurry since no other cola soda tastes right to my taste buds.  I feel additional irritation when MMOs like EQ etc get to go on - happy for those players still getting to enjoy their MMORPG world and wondering why I cannot likewise enjoy mine.

Victoria Victrix of course writes both cogently and eloquently upon the topic.  Dear lady, how happy I am for you and Team Wildcard to be our advocates and spokesmen.  You, the Quich and Rae and many I shan't name are our Champions!!  THANK YOU!!!!

I don't regard myself as either an angry person nor a vengeful man, but I have struggled with these feelings, even as a pacifist for what NCSoft top brass did to us so callously.  Sure, they're within their legal rights, Hoo-rah for them, but Pfffft too and their lamebrain call.  (Remembering that one brilliant icon of Morpheus(?) saying "I recognize you've made a decision, but because it's a stupid one I intend to oppose it!"   Sorry for the paraphrase and Thanks to whomever did that graphic.)

Re: dreaming or even just remembering, not daydreaming exactly, man, Illusionss I read your words and I'm instantly transported in my mind back to Talos, flying out of the tram to the PI Ferry,etc. just as you describe!  Bet we many of us did that LOTS!!  For myself these past few weeks, I have moments when unbidden some character of mine is exiting Wentworth's in Steel Canyon and flying off toward his next mission, some mission door in SC taking me past Blyde Square and the music that played there (musically that was one of my faves.)  In this 2-3 second recollection day-dream I don't even visualize/see in mind's eye a specific character of mine, just boots and legs and a cape flapping - I'm sure we all remember those super cape animations - and more often than not, I shunt such memories aside, rather than endure further  sorrow and sadness about this loss.  Doing so can still make me so unhappy, bringing tears and/or anger to my eyes and/or heart.

I've dabbled a bit in DDO, finally got my Paladin out of the damn tutorial, done a few intro quests; yeah it looks okay, tho hardly stellar.  I haven't tried CO or DCUO since I know I'd find that a truly painful reminder of what I'd lost/had taken from me, legally of course, but still taken.  I've played and dabbled in LOTRO off and on for a few years, getting toons to mid level (mid 30's) but after CoH ended, I just couldn't get back into LOTRO, nor even DDO, discovering that about all I wanted to do was not play them but just move an avatar around.  Sheesh, does this sound pathetic?  After playing a few games of Civ 4, and my non CoH MMO gaming attempts, I realized I simply have no taste for gaming at all presently.  I anticipate that in time I shall, but NCSoft has KILLED my enjoyment for gaming entirely it seems.  CoH is the only game I find I have any taste for.  Maybe like with Coke, I can enjoy 7-Up, or root beer or other flavors of soda, but will avoid those reminding me of classic coke.  I want the "Real Thing" and only that.  (Apologies to Pepsi drinkers, but I expect it's the same for you.)  Thus to continue with my beverage analogy, I'm on to blogging and writing and other non-gaming activities, perhaps rather like having tea, coffee, or even filtered water in lieu of any "soda pop."  Grrrrr!! NCSoft, I don't hate your corporation, nor your rank-and-file employees who did their jobs so well.  It's the executives there only I take strong exception to, and even then I prefer/try to feel no ill will - tho sometimes fail (heck we have my ranting posts here on Titan to prove it!)

I hope you'll soon come to love yourself much better, Illusionss, not in some narcissistic way, but with Compassion as you would a friend you had liking and high regard for.  You're worthy of it!!  (*stifles desire to launch into my views on spirituality and spiritual loving-kindness, Compassion, Agape, Buddhism, etc.)

Thanks again, Titans!!  You're my SG now!!  Apologies for the Walls of Text, my SGmates, but I feel certain anyone reading this will understand exactly what I'm saying.
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healix

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #243 on: January 23, 2013, 09:27:09 AM »
JR, you are in my mind again, writing my thoughts down.
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

johnrobey

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #244 on: January 23, 2013, 10:41:01 AM »
JR, you are in my mind again, writing my thoughts down.

((((((((*******MEGA HUGS TO YOU, HEALIX*******))))))))     :)

LOL, dear, we are on the same page again!!  RL and psychologically.  Hmmm, must be time to up MY meds. *WINK*   8)

This SG or League of Leagues is the BEST!!!! PS.  I even heard back from one of my former SGmates (we played 4-6 servers together, tho mostly Justice, Infinity, and Victory.)  Peace out!
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi         "In every generation there has to be some fool who will speak the truth as he sees it." -- Boris Pasternak
"Where They Have Burned Books They Will End In Burning Human Beings" -- Heinrich Heine

Thunder Glove

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #245 on: January 23, 2013, 02:39:54 PM »
I dreamed that I reinstalled the Beta client for some reason (I think I was using Icon on it), and it actually connected.  I didn't have any of my characters, but the game was up and running and I could create a new character and play on it.

... I woke up sad.

Illusionss

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #246 on: January 23, 2013, 04:02:13 PM »
Thanks for your kind words John, this whole thing has really thrown me - and I think, almost all of us - for a loop.

I am currently trying to salve my feelings by eagerly awaiting the long-delayed "Aliens: Colonial Marines." I am a huuuuuuuuge Alien nerd, I love these films - well, except for Alien: Ressurrection - and I played "Alien: Trilogy" until I nearly burned our Playstation 2 into the ground. Looking forward to scragging those xenos yet again! And since its not an MMO, no one can ever take it completely away from me. [I think you can co-op play up to 4 players if you want. But solo is good.]

But even so, what I am really doing is just marking time until we get a decent successor to CoX. Even though I am very vested emotionally in the Alien universe, my Marine will never fly. And that is my benchmark. Flight.

CoX was really many games in one. Did you want to be a cyborg? OK. A dimension-warping sorcerer? Gotcha. A genetically enhanced supersoldier? No problem. A seductive demoness, complete with twitching pointed tail? Great. A fairy? Yup. A robot? No problem. And on it went! NO OTHER GAME allows this, and it sucks!!

Ironwolf

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #247 on: January 23, 2013, 04:42:35 PM »
A giant genetically tweaked guppy with mechanical legs bolted on by a Freakshow doctor? Spike the Guppy.

A cow distributing Kinetically boosted milkshots? Moo Jooz.

A mouse who fell off the boat to Hades and was gifted with the powers of the River Lethe? Deathmouse.

Yeah, that and more............much more.

Segev

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #248 on: January 23, 2013, 05:27:08 PM »
I think you mean the river Styx.

Ironwolf

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #249 on: January 23, 2013, 05:38:33 PM »
Since Deathmouse is family friendly he doesn't actually "kill" villians he used his powers of Dark Miasma and Water Blast to soak them with the waters of the River Lethe - making them forget their past lives of evil.

The River Lethe flowed through the plain of Lethe in Hades. Also known as the Ameles potamos (river of unmindfulness), the river flowed around the cave of Hypnos where its murmuring induces drowsiness. The shades of the dead were required to drink from its water in order to forget their earthly life. Poets frequently use Lethe as a metaphor for the underworld in general.


FatherXmas

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #250 on: January 23, 2013, 05:51:32 PM »
Face Off, SyFy's FX makeup reality show, did "create your own DC character last night.  They contestants each had a consultation with one of DC's current artists (including Lee and DiDio) who did an original sketch for each of them.

Seeing each of their costumes and makeup just made me miss the game more.

Edit, found this list of artists.

Jim Lee
Dan DiDio
Mark Buckingham
Cliff Chiang
Tony S. Daniel
David Finch
Nicola Scott
J.H. Williams III
Tempus unum hominem manet

Twitter - AtomicSamuraiRobot@NukeSamuraiBot

johnrobey

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #251 on: January 24, 2013, 09:10:37 AM »
Ironwolf, I really enjoyed reading about Deathmouse and the Kinetic Moo Jooz!  ROFL!!!  I adored the creativity of others as much as mine in CoH.

Re: flight being the criteria.  Yeah, I'm with you on that.  While I wasn't terribly good at Super Jump leaping (and found Teleport conceptually way cool - but too END-expensive vs. the other other travel powers) what I hate in the other MMO's, e.g. "standard" fantasy MMO's is my toons there can't jump even half as well as a first level CoH toon can.   While traveling is not only valid and often featured as part of the tale in various novels (e.g. LotR), I still laugh remembering one tabletop pen and paper session when after lengthy descriptions etc. one of my gamer friends turned to the GM and she asked, "Can we get there yet?"  CoH let me get to the action quickly, tho I often enjoyed the scenery while getting there.

Illusionss, I also love the "ALIENS" trilogy.  I started with the second film (since I'm not a big fan of horror), loved all the heroic action/adventure, especially that line of Ripley's "Get away from her you, B...  Pancake!"  Yeah, after seeing Alien:Resurrection, technically a good film, e.g. aliens swimming underwater; afterwards tho I felt like "well, I guess they've done all they can do with Aliens."  That is until Alien vs. Predator.  Bwahaha!  That was fun!!  GL, man, and take care.
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Illusionss

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #252 on: January 24, 2013, 02:36:57 PM »
You going to give "Colonial Marines" a shot, John? It frankly looks ahhhh-maaaazing, and you can get a PC platform version - which is what I am going to do. I was actually planning on giving it a spin even before CoX closure was announced; I was not LEAVING CoX over it, but I definitely wanted to add it to my gameplay roster. My rationale was that if something happened to one of the games, I would still have the other to play.  :( Lo, how right I was.

Was watching a gameplay demo on YouTube the other day, one of the developers was trying to do a walkthrough of one of the areas and every time he started talking, ergo got distracted a xenomorph jumped on him from somewhere and killed him, it was hilarious. Looks very intense. Its an M for Mature game.

Unlike the movies, where people wearing xeno suits are bound by the laws of gravity just like all of us, in the game xenos also haunt the walls and ceiling. And everythings really dark, so you have trouble SEEING them, which I find very realistic. I really want to like this, because GW2 is just not satisfying to me. It is a hum-drum grindfest.

I will still be there with bells on should we get an emulator or a new superhero-themed game, do not get me wrong. I just miss gaming and want to stay busy until that day dawns when we can fly again.

Knightslayer

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #253 on: January 24, 2013, 03:42:54 PM »
CoX was really many games in one. Did you want to be a cyborg? OK. A dimension-warping sorcerer? Gotcha. A genetically enhanced supersoldier? No problem. A seductive demoness, complete with twitching pointed tail? Great. A fairy? Yup. A robot? No problem. And on it went! NO OTHER GAME allows this, and it sucks!!
That's pretty much what makes it irreplaceable for me...
Just a small sample of my characters list included:a  commander of a hi-tech soldier squad, a psionically gifted cop in power armor, a shadowy vampire, a future android with incredible selfrepair systems, a genetically enhanced super soldier, a body-hopping demonic entity, a Shivan infused science project (with a hero counterpart that accomplished the same through power armor with a shivan shard-based reactor powering it), and many, many other concepts.
While I'm having a great time with SWTOR & TSW, they simply can't scratch that creative itch that CoX did.

johnrobey

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #254 on: January 24, 2013, 07:32:23 PM »
You going to give "Colonial Marines" a shot, John? It frankly looks ahhhh-maaaazing, and you can get a PC platform version - which is what I am going to do. I was actually planning on giving it a spin even before CoX closure was announced; I was not LEAVING CoX over it, but I definitely wanted to add it to my gameplay roster. My rationale was that if something happened to one of the games, I would still have the other to play.  :( Lo, how right I was.

Was watching a gameplay demo on YouTube the other day, one of the developers was trying to do a walkthrough of one of the areas and every time he started talking, ergo got distracted a xenomorph jumped on him from somewhere and killed him, it was hilarious. Looks very intense. Its an M for Mature game.

Unlike the movies, where people wearing xeno suits are bound by the laws of gravity just like all of us, in the game xenos also haunt the walls and ceiling. And everythings really dark, so you have trouble SEEING them, which I find very realistic. I really want to like this, because GW2 is just not satisfying to me. It is a hum-drum grindfest.

I will still be there with bells on should we get an emulator or a new superhero-themed game, do not get me wrong. I just miss gaming and want to stay busy until that day dawns when we can fly again.
Hi, Illusionss!  Thanks for the recommendation and micro-review of the game.  I'm likely not going to play it; first and primarily is because I'm suffering Gaming Anhedonia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia which I attribute solely to NCSoft and our End-of-Days experience during Sunsetting.  All the love and caring shown during the 3 months and especially on that final night (at least it was night where I live on 11/30 / early 12/1) was intensely heart-warming as our CoH experience came to a close.  The heartbreak I suffered (we all suffered) when the monitor image froze and blinked out was equally as intense.  One can read the Grieving Thread I started on Titan even as my tears were flowing.  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6503.msg80701.html#msg80701  Others add significant insight there, especially a Bereavement Counselor who also played CoH.  In short, I've lost my taste for gaming, at least temporarily, and part of me feels adamantly about never subjecting myself to such emotional and psychological pain ever again, at least not willingly.   Perhaps I may have developed a mild phobia about any MMO I might try getting ended in such an abrupt manner regardless of the rationality of such prospect.  I know when our old family dog died, it was a long time (2 years) before our family decided to get another (in fact we got two marvelous puppies, litter mates, the same breed as my boyhood "friend" and canine companion, a golden retriever.)   

I recall one SGmate telling us on guildportal, how much he loved the SG and all of us, that he wished he could play but he'd been thru MMORPG shutdown before and just could not put himself thru it again.  He said he felt guilty about not "being there for us," but we wrote back to assure him not to.  After all, our purpose in gaming is to have fun, not to experience miserably painful feelings.  I'll note again that MMORPGing for many also taught useful life skills such as socializing or just learning using one's computer.

My second reason for passing on "Colonial Marines" is that I have a rather vivid imagination and strong emotional response to visual images.  While the game sounds super and probably well done (aka you enjoy it   :)) I know that I would not care for xenoforms leaping out at me and defeating my avatar.  As one of my gamer friends noted to me, "I don't care for the shuffling horde of rotting zombies to look too realistic!"  Thus for me, CoH was perfect!!  Baddies/adversaries defeated weren't "killed" but rendered powerless/knocked out and sent to jail; ditto for when I was defeated - my toon didn't "die" but was sent to the hospital.  The level of violence was "cartoon-perfect" (imo) in being both realistic enough yet sufficiently imaginary for me to find pleasure in playing.  Only my Claws scrapper drew animated blood when in combat and even then LOL, I usually preferred energy blasts etc to even guns like Dual Pistols and Assault Rifle, thus keeping the violence more imaginary; e.g. the fantasy of combat rather than actually doing it.  I mean, I could play an avatar who is skilled in martial arts, or go to the dojo to experience this myself.

I noted from a recent MMORPG e-magazine that the White House intends a study of MMO gaming with respect to the effect(s) upon eliciting violence.  As a former Psychology major, I expect they'll find a link, for reasons identical to those linking TV and movies with violence. (ref: the Bobo doll experiments et al http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobo_doll_experiment)  E.g. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold had watched and re-watched the "Matrix" movies lots before improvising explosives and shooting up Columbine high school and their fellow classmates.  Some people are MUCH better able to distinguish imagination and fantasy from reality - perhaps most - but I recall one friend who has a diagnosis of schizo-affective disorder (btw he's a really nice guy, songwriter and musician) who told us when we invited him to game with us, "Gee, I'd love to but unfortunately it would seem too real to me."

Hope this post isn't too long-winded.   ;)
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johnrobey

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #255 on: January 24, 2013, 08:28:39 PM »
I'm not sure this is exactly the place for this and Septipheran may have posted this elsewhere on Titan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU4xmUQjGtM&feature (yeah, I subscribe to his youtube channel.)  I love the glimpse I have from this and all the other videos fans of CoH have made - it takes me  pleasantly down Memory Lane & is the closest I can get (personally) to playing CoH again.  I also really like his selection of music for this vid.   I found the experience pleasurable and even uplifting, tho aware that another might have a different emotional response to viewing this (i.e. sad)  Hope you also enjoy it!   8)
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Ironwolf

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #256 on: January 24, 2013, 08:54:53 PM »
Just as some people can have a beer and a sandwich and have no problem not becoming an alcoholic - some people have a beer and go on a 2 month bender.

Controlling guns, games or TV/movies is far less practical than spending more time with people and getting them help if they need it. Some people are more vulnerable to these things and so removing the thing causing the problem is far easier than removing the ways they could act out.

Here in the Detroit area we had a guy just spraying people with a plastic pop bottle with gas and setting it on fire. No amount of regulations can stop that behavior. Increasing the care for those with mental problems and identifying them is the best thing. You understand your own personal circumstances and I am glad you can filter for yourself those types of things that could cause an issue.

Illusionss

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #257 on: January 24, 2013, 08:58:11 PM »
Completely understood John, I totally can relate to the fear of getting too attached again. I wont be getting too attached to much, unless it has a single-player component, or the game is run by people who can be trusted to not let us twist in the wind just for fun. But I am a pretty serious gamer and I'm rather at loose ends at the moment. I dont want to let my skills get rusty.

There is an old saying, "A new love chases the old." I feel that it is at least somewhat true; for instance, when grieving over the death of a beloved pet, I have found that trying to help an orphan distracts me from my pain, and helps me heal. I dont FORGET my pain but it helps me not dwell on it too much. That's what I'm trying to do here. And its why I own a bunch of cats.

For anyone else even mildly curious, here is a link to an eleven-minute walkthrough of the game in question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fHv4wQJfSY

Please note that this IS rated Mature, due to violence. And violent it is.

Quote
My second reason for passing on "Colonial Marines" is that I have a rather vivid imagination and strong emotional response to visual images.  While the game sounds super and probably well done (aka you enjoy it   ) I know that I would not care for xenoforms leaping out at me and defeating my avatar.

Point taken, and to some extent I agree - I just love Alien so much, I'm willing to risk high intensity. I have avoided the Resident Evil games because of reports of players being disturbed over too much realism. I have several different times been told to never play Resident Evil alone in the house with the lights off! So I take that seriously, having heard it from more than one person... I dont think that game is for me.

At the end of the link posted above, the Queen from "Aliens" does appear, all twenty-foot-tall of her, and it is definitely one of those "Oh ****" moments.

Back to waiting to fly again....

Illusionss

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #258 on: January 24, 2013, 09:10:23 PM »
Just as some people can have a beer and a sandwich and have no problem not becoming an alcoholic - some people have a beer and go on a 2 month bender.

Controlling guns, games or TV/movies is far less practical than spending more time with people and getting them help if they need it. Some people are more vulnerable to these things and so removing the thing causing the problem is far easier than removing the ways they could act out.

Here in the Detroit area we had a guy just spraying people with a plastic pop bottle with gas and setting it on fire. No amount of regulations can stop that behavior. Increasing the care for those with mental problems and identifying them is the best thing. You understand your own personal circumstances and I am glad you can filter for yourself those types of things that could cause an issue.

As a mental health professional myself, I can unequivocably state that the deinstitutionalizing of the severely mentally ill is the greatest failed experiment of the last 50 years. This in essence told paranoid, delusional people "Hey you can manage your own care! See ya!" and shoved them out the door.

Guess what? They CANT manage their own care, because they're delusional! If parents or spouses try to step in this can get them seriously injured or even killed. Of course this will all take billions to fix, and we won't get really serious about it until a few more horrific shootings. And then the "fix" will not involve an intervention with the mentally ill, no we will lock up the guns instead - as if people were not offing each other long before the advent of the firearm. Witness the guy with the can of gas and a lighter! We took the guns, problem solved, right? *sigh*

JaguarX

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Re: How are you handling the loss?
« Reply #259 on: January 24, 2013, 09:42:10 PM »
As a mental health professional myself, I can unequivocably state that the deinstitutionalizing of the severely mentally ill is the greatest failed experiment of the last 50 years. This in essence told paranoid, delusional people "Hey you can manage your own care! See ya!" and shoved them out the door.

Guess what? They CANT manage their own care, because they're delusional! If parents or spouses try to step in this can get them seriously injured or even killed. Of course this will all take billions to fix, and we won't get really serious about it until a few more horrific shootings. And then the "fix" will not involve an intervention with the mentally ill, no we will lock up the guns instead - as if people were not offing each other long before the advent of the firearm. Witness the guy with the can of gas and a lighter! We took the guns, problem solved, right? *sigh*

+1 this.

Mexico, some of the tightest gun control laws in the world but ya more likely to be shot by a fully automatic AK-47 there than 5 minutes away, in New Mexico where open carry is legal (of course still no fully automatic without the special permit.) People in ELP, TX get shot more by bullets coming from across the border than shootings that actually happen on ELP,TX soil. In fact a woman just got shot downtown ELP the other day from a gunfight that was happening on the Mexican side. So much for gun control.

People that shoot people illegally that is, rarely ever use a gun they legally bought in a store. Usually it's a gun they are not supposed to have in the first place. Many felons in the jail there are on their second and up murder charge, some been a felon since their teens and were never legally able to buy a gun, yet, they still manage to get one and shoot someone. Gun control wont solve the problem.

And if people want to kill someone they will. Just ask the four guys whose head was found in the desert, beheaded by machete. Or the guy who was found burnt alive in his own trunk.  Or the guy that tied his family up (wife and three daughters) and lit the house on fire.