Author Topic: Korean Kibun  (Read 60894 times)

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #100 on: October 07, 2012, 08:31:20 AM »
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience?  Or should I leave it as it stands?
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Atlantea

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #101 on: October 07, 2012, 08:47:35 AM »
I'm unsure. on the one hand, I wonder why they should get any warning at all, since they gave neither the players or Paragon Studios any warning of their intentions.

On the other hand - we're trying to play to a very specific cultural paradigm here. I have no idea if a warning is considered polite or if it's unnecessary or if in their culture "saving face" would mean they don't bring up such thing so neither should you?

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Shaz

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #102 on: October 07, 2012, 01:40:17 PM »
VV, thank you. Reading your letter was like reading what my heart has been chanting wordlessly for weeks now.

I, too, am childless, and will remain so.  While I do not consider 39 (dear god 40 in less than 2 weeks HOW DID THAT HAPPEN) to be remotely old, due to M.S. and other health problems my body suffers issues that are more akin to old age than middle age. I dread what might come when I have actual age-related issues on top of what I already suffer.

I spend most of my time trapped in my house. I cannot even spend much time outside due to severe heat sensitivity issues - I live in Louisiana, and it is typically dangerously hot for me up to 9 months out of the year. City of Heroes is not my only escape, but it is far and away the one that means the most to me. It is easy to play. It is friendly to solo or group. I can spend hours sitting on an island in the sky in Ouroboros, or flying in the sky, when I really need peace and escape from the facts of my life. Sleep has been difficult this past month. I either cannot fall asleep or I wake up in terror. I feel so trapped. Caged. Alone. Abandoned. Ignored.

Worthless.

And I lay that entirely at NCSoft's feet.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 02:08:14 PM by Shaz »

Kartanian

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2012, 03:26:56 PM »
My wife was showing me an article on how NCSoft seems poised to replace CoH with Blade and Soul in Western markets. (It looks like adult entertainment replaces one of the few family-friendly MMOs, in this case. That should also tell us something about gender and violence attitudes in the NCSoft company decision making, as compared to this community's values. Article here.) A point in that article grated against my understanding of business psychology, and the spark illuminated for me how the kibun concept may have played into the NCSoft decison making.

In Korean business, is it proper maintenance of kibun to quickly and softly dispose of "mistakes?" My wife said the article was suggesting that CoH is a cash cow. City of Heroes is no cash cow. A cash cow doesn't make up a mere 2% of revenue. In fact, despite the fact that CoH has been profitable, it may be considered a disappointment. Perhaps NCSoft leadership promised more to the directors, and the finanical and market performance of CoH is an embarrassment when put next to their other products. To preserve kibun, wouldn't it just be better to quietly trim that embarrassing product? There is no need to make a fuss or to say anything further; and certainly not to prolong or increase the visibility of the "bad" decision to have such a product in the inventory. This may explain the "why" of the decision. As other posters have suggested, it seems that NCSoft leadership has subsequently tried to implement its decision in the best way to preserve kibun.

Suggestion: Perhaps one way to approach this is to praise the charitable decision that NCSoft made in keeping the game for so long. They have supported their customers even when perhaps this decision should have been taken some time ago. Now, to further support their customers, NCSoft can lead the gaming community by seeking a worthy niche successor firm whose business model COH will fit, now that NCSoft has grown beyond this game. This would allow NCSoft to continue its good work with a wise business decision. They would be generous to the customers who are loyal to this product and wise to promote a niche firm that has no real competitive leverage against their preferred markets. In the age of online social media, the power of individual customers and collective networks is increasing. It may be wise for a forward-thinking firm to get out ahead of that trend and turn a difficulty into an advantage.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. Please take this for what it's worth.

Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #104 on: October 07, 2012, 03:36:07 PM »
I'm unsure. on the one hand, I wonder why they should get any warning at all, since they gave neither the players or Paragon Studios any warning of their intentions.

On the other hand - we're trying to play to a very specific cultural paradigm here. I have no idea if a warning is considered polite or if it's unnecessary or if in their culture "saving face" would mean they don't bring up such thing so neither should you?

Star Ranger? Got anything?
Culturally, hinting at it without coming out and saying it allows them to exercise their nunchi to recognize something and take action to preserve kibun before they are shamed by the revelation that they "should have known" what was coming. If the hint is visible in retrospect but is not crass, then it likely will, when seen by "outsiders," reflect even more poorly on NCSoft for having had such poor nunchi that they failed to preserve kibun.

Kartanian

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #105 on: October 07, 2012, 03:36:40 PM »
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience?  Or should I leave it as it stands?

With the existing tone of the letter, I would leave it as unstated but understood. I would suggest (if it's possible) getting someone to translate the letter into Korean. I wish I had a resource to offer, but this is a bit too far afield for me to be able to impose upon my Korean acquaintances for help.

Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #106 on: October 07, 2012, 03:40:04 PM »
Kartanian's point about leaving the small way out to save kibun of "we'll praise your business acumen if you act with charity and correct your 'mistake' in a way that doesn't make another one - by finding a niche publisher" is a good one. While we ARE going to ramp things up at this point to make CoH's closing at least as big an embarassment to NCSoft as any form of keeping it running could have been, we should always leave the slightest door open so that, should NCSoft suddenly "realign" its position to serve our ends, we can help them spin the whole thing to a net positive as soon as the game is restored.

StarRanger4

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #107 on: October 07, 2012, 03:44:42 PM »
Star Ranger? Got anything?

Not really.  Digging the stuff out of the net is one thing.  Doesn't exactly make me a cultural expert, though.

As a guess, I'd say no, though.  Even threatening this sort of loss of face could possibly be disturbing enough to cause them to bunker up even harder rather than bring them back to the bargaining table in good faith.

One other thought on it...  Make it a point that they're effectively destroying a whole village.  That happened a lot; it might still have enough cultural umph to make them think about it.

Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #108 on: October 07, 2012, 03:50:38 PM »
I think the "threat of loss of face" will have to be subtle but sharp. If it's not there at all, they will ignore it. If it's unsubtle, they will feel they lose face either way. If it's subtle and sharp, it may bring them back just by virtue of their cultural instinct to watch carefully for cues and avoid loss of face that results from failing to read them.

Mister Bison

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #109 on: October 07, 2012, 04:34:17 PM »
My personnal stance on these kind of thing is to be honest, not subtle. Frankly, thelepathy is hard for me, and I don't know the others, so I help them out. But then I'm also frequently told I'm hard to discuss with. I've also read that telling your feelings instead of your reasonning is generally easier for people to listen, less pedantic. But a discourse that's whine only is also hard to take into account, so it boils down to tell your feelings and then propose something, or downright tell you're helpless and seek for help.

The bottomline could be that if the subtle letter is not understood well, get them a rawer letter, even phrased "if you don't answer, I'm going to assume it's because I'm not good enough for you, so I shall ask somebody else , tell them how I feel, and they'll know what you have done to me, to get help". It doesn't look like a threat, but truth is hard to hear sometimes.
Yeeessss....

QuantumHero

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #110 on: October 07, 2012, 05:10:25 PM »
<hugs shaz>

1. I had a taste of it, but only a taste.    A serious car accident that took me 4 years of very difficult rehabilitation....I have multiple herniated disks in my neck and came very close to ending up with an arm that barely functioned.  I will be on pain medication for the rest of my life because of it but at least for now I am mostly recovered.   What happens when aging comes into play, in the not to distant future....I do not know.

2. As for the tree thing folks, you all do realize I was being a tiny bit dramatic there I hope...right?   My background is public speaking, among other things folks so when I am not completely playing around/relaxing I tend to choose my words for impact. :)

I would rather see the pieces of our souls that we placed in this game, this community, preserved in an active forest and/or a gathering of vrondi (tap, tap, tap, ncsoft, tap, tap, tap) then thrown on a garbage heap or disperse over thier pre-arranged cliff like good little sheep.  Is that clear enough  ;)  Guard and annoy until the bad people go away :)

3. I don't expect arrangements for a transition/sale to be *finished* by November 30, Mantic....but they sure as hell better have *resumed/started* and be moving forward.

I want an actual real sign that this company is willing to turn over a new leaf and learn the difference between retiring a game and killing it....if not then game killer is the crown they will wear until it becomes crushingly heavy

4. But back to learning how to speak the language of face and vision and getting VV's letter out :) followed by many, many more.

My instinct is to subtly go for the jugular here, to threaten them with loss of face...as long as they actually understand it then subtle is better but *will* they understand?  And do I want to be sharp to make them also feel pain or because it is the right move...I know anger tries to cloud my judgement these days.  That I lay at their feet.  All the anger all the tears all the pain...it is so rare for me to get angry to border on hatred...and yet they have

Let them only listen and understand...see a course of action that restores face to all.  Let us have the wisdom to temper anger and pain into solution.

I am trying, we are all trying...are they?

   

If given two roads that lead no where good...stop using roads and carve your own path.

Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #111 on: October 07, 2012, 07:31:30 PM »
The reason for the subtlety is precisely because of kibun.

I'm like you, Mister Bison, but we need to be reaching out to their cultural standard on this one.

Matthew Orlock

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #112 on: October 07, 2012, 09:46:44 PM »
F--- Kibun. >:l I just want my game, and my friends to stay.

Edit: *ahem* -eabrace
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 11:53:54 PM by eabrace »

Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #113 on: October 07, 2012, 10:06:25 PM »
As do we all, Orlock; trying to use kibun to our advantage is probably our best hope.

QuantumHero

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #114 on: October 07, 2012, 10:10:58 PM »
<orlock> we understand...this is a tool, a way to maybe actually reach them...I understand that completely and am still struggling to hold my temper in check...half the time these days.  There is a huge piece of me that can think of kibun only as a weapon, a way to hurt them but we *must* try making them truely hear us first...we must.
If given two roads that lead no where good...stop using roads and carve your own path.

Dollhouse

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2012, 12:11:35 AM »
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience?  Or should I leave it as it stands?

IMO, the time for that move (hinting at greater distribution) would be after this version fails to get results. Hopefully, that won't be necessary...

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #116 on: October 08, 2012, 01:13:42 AM »
Hey, it's only another $20 for an overnight letter.  I can ALWAYS write and send a second with "You clearly have shut your eyes to our disharmony, our grief, and our loss over the destruction of our village.  I must now lay this before the feet of your countrymen."

So the consensus seems to be send it as the "tuned" version, no further revisions.

I *might* know someone who could not only get this translated into good Korean, but would know what newspapers to send it to in Korea; one of our former CCCP members (Soviette/Untermensch/Chug, and yes, we've used his characters with his blessing in Secret World Chronicle) who has been living and working there for...3 years that I know of.  I'll get hold of him, he and I still correspond now and again.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Atlantea

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #117 on: October 08, 2012, 01:43:19 AM »
What I wouldn't give to have eyes in the boardroom or offices when it FINALLY begins to dawn on the NCSoft execs what kind of hornets nest they've kicked. :D


Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #118 on: October 08, 2012, 01:44:38 AM »
Excellent, VV! Good luck. ^_^_v

Atlantea: You're not the only one. Are we SURE we don't have any heroes or villains on our game who can break out of the fourth wall and do some super-spying for us? >_> <_<

QuantumHero

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #119 on: October 08, 2012, 01:48:59 AM »
Translated into Korean is *good* <starts deliberately over-the-top dangerously mischievious laugh> oh to be a fly on the wall when this is widely seen.  Go get em VV.







 
If given two roads that lead no where good...stop using roads and carve your own path.