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Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: StarRanger4 on October 03, 2012, 02:41:54 PM

Title: Korean Kibun
Post by: StarRanger4 on October 03, 2012, 02:41:54 PM
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 03, 2012, 03:01:35 PM
Thank you very much for this. It is extremely enlightening, and I think I can start trying to subtly alter my suggestions to use it. I am not sure I am going to be great at it; "nunchi" is something I have trouble with in an American context, let alone with people deliberately trying to put forth a more amenable face than they really feel.

That said, I'm curious about the "throw a tantrum" method of regaining kibun. Is it thus not shameful to do so? It would seem the ultimate violation of it, harming that of all around you as well as displaying you've failed to maintain your own, but it supposedly restores it. Do you have any further information about this?

It could be that they're desperately trying to figure out how to either prevent or mollify our display of what they see as precisely this sort of kibun-restoring tantrum. If we can help them find a way to do so while maintaining their own kibun and make turning the IP over serve that purpose...
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Vulpy on October 03, 2012, 03:11:04 PM
Both Kibun and Nunchi are very difficult concepts for non-Koreans to get the hang of and we will generally be forgiven for our ignorance of these concepts and consequent rude behaviour, especailly if we are high on the status ladder. However, one gains more than one loses by trying to understand and, as much as possible, behaving according to these rules of behaviour. 

This forms the core of what contemporary Western education refers to as "cultural comptence in communication": when talking to someone from a very different background, consciously adjust your style, tone, and word choice. Be willing to apologize if you make a social misstep in your ignorance. A few such mistakes may be made, but you should come out ahead overall--who doesn't appreciate someone genuinely trying to make them more comfortable?

Quote
A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

This, too, struck me. NCsoft may have been trying to save face for Paragon Studios--which would be a very gracious move, even if such steps are not often required and are, indeed, occasionally harmful in American business.

As for how to turn this to our advantage... It would behoove us, especially in direct communications, to remember that we are dealing with learned businesspeople. They will--and should--expect us to be comptent in those communications, to present ourselves well. If we are willing to give opportunites to keep kibun, they will likely do the same for us. In this fashion, a stronger bond might be forged.

That said, I'm curious about the "throw a tantrum" method of regaining kibun. Is it thus not shameful to do so? It would seem the ultimate violation of it, harming that of all around you as well as displaying you've failed to maintain your own, but it supposedly restores it. Do you have any further information about this?

I have never seen our efforts as a "tantrum." NCsoft's leaders owe us no kibun. Indeed, they've helped us many, many times before. But such a display could be a face-saving measure if one can continue to select their words carefully while obviously deeply distressed.

We need to make it clear to them that we speak out because we love what they have had a hand in creating. In fact, the more people that know this, the better off both parties will be.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 03, 2012, 03:19:27 PM
I think they may see this as the sort of kibun-saving tantrum, if not consciously, than on an unconscious cultural level. Just as we unconsciously see the "exhausted all options" line as being a gross insult, even now consciously knowing what may have motivated it was a desire to preserve feelings. I'm not saying it IS a tantrum; I'm trying to look at what they might be thinking.


I have always advocated being professional; this helps refine what "professional" means in this case. Yes, we absolutely can go with them-as-allies if we can frame this as our kibun being enhanced by a product they made, even if they no longer can directly participate. The most difficult part, for me, would be the "white lies," but I think careful genteelity in phrasing the truth might serve similar purposes.

The first step will be to attempt to reformat our collective reaction to their most recent message. We need to absolutely not take its face value as finality, but at the same time, we must dance with it; accept the graciousness it attempts, from their perspective, to offer, and twirl it into an extended offer to devote more energy and work harder with them to find a resolution. They have risked losing kibun in admitting the shame of failure to find a solution after "exhausting all options." Instead of rubbing their faces in the fib, we instead accept the "exhausted" adjective as the explanation and say, "we know you can do better; we have faith in you. Let us offer our energy to elevate both our Kibun!"
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: darkquill on October 03, 2012, 03:23:00 PM
What great research!
My response pretty closely resembles Segev's.

It makes me wonder if Paragon Studios' management was supposed to know they weren't doing well enough, but didn't because they didn't pick up on the right clues.  I would think "surely they would be more clear in business communications about business goals," but this wouldn't be the first thing about this situation that didn't make sense to me from a Western perspective. Then they were even nice enough to give the studios a 3-day weekend to regain kibun. . . which failed, of course.

There's not a lot in there about kibun specifically in the business-customer relationship. A customer's expression of dissatisfaction may be treated differently from a social peer's or an underling's or a superior's. I can only imagine that trying to handle the kibun of a group of thousands and thousands of customers all with slightly different reactions must be overwhelming.  In the West, we can write it off by saying "You can't please all of the people all of the time." I wonder what they have as a parallel.

Great job, StarRanger4!
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: QuantumHero on October 03, 2012, 03:50:18 PM
There is much to ponder in this thread...please return to the table nsoft.  It is your departure from the effort that shames us all.  To redeem face is to find a solution for we do not accept the name of our world written in red ink.  We must wash that hated color away...that is how we can all restore ourselves to harmony
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 03, 2012, 03:57:52 PM
I can't right now for a few time constraint reasons, but later on I will try to reformulate my message in the first Kibun-mentioning thread and try to write a proper formal letter from the community. I have a means of gaining semi-direct access to business people, but it has been only marginally successful so far. I think this may be a good avenue to pursue, nonetheless. The goal will be to show that we are actively attempting to help them preserve kibun but that we are NOT giving up, to invite them to take part in activities which might increase their Face (a part of kibun) along side us, and invite them to come back to the negotiating table so we can explore more innovative solutions to whatever problems got in the way this last round.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: voodoogirl on October 03, 2012, 04:04:06 PM
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MFDjXP8Tbdo/UGxh1Zt1LUI/AAAAAAAAATA/IPqldlkScYo/s215/NCSOFT.png)

Red enough?
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Optimism Penguin on October 03, 2012, 04:16:41 PM
Nice research.  I think a helpful phrase you might want to look up in addition is 체면 (pronounced cheh myun), as it is the Korean concept for face or more pertinently saving face.  I'm impressed by the depth of the explanations you found for 기분 (kibun) and 눈치 (nunchi), though to be honest it really depends on what level of society you are dealing with as to how deep those concepts stay true.  The younger generations are every so slowly becoming more western, and the older ones are digging in all the harder.  Though with business its probably a safe bet to assume the older/more traditionally focused people are running the show.

Seriously though, the saving face bit is probably a good avenue to go down if you've got the time.  I really haven't had any lately, so my contributions here have been virtually nonexistent.

Thanks for kicking ass in the research StarRanger.

-Opti   
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Vulpy on October 03, 2012, 04:30:22 PM
Red enough?

I'm...not so sure this is a productive way to express our sentiments... ^.^
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 03, 2012, 04:51:55 PM
Well, there is a serious question here. Do we (1) try to help NCSoft repair their kibun , or do we threaten to utterly destroy their kibun? Doing the latter could cause a major paradigm shift, or it could backfire badly.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: unladenswallow on October 03, 2012, 04:52:20 PM
A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

I suppose this may explain the abruptness of the termination of the game. I would have thought that given this social concept of theirs and the fact that they are an international corporation, that they would realize that what they view as respectful in Korea may be viewed as an affront by other cultures and they should have taken our (Paragon Studios and the players) concepts of what is socially appropriate in consideration. If they didn't this is telling of them. What it says about them is up to speculation. The only guesses I have are:

they didn't pay close enough attention to our cultural morays,

they are only concerned about how they appear to their own countrymen in how they deal with us

Or they are wholy unconcerned with us

Just to be clear I'm sure there are more possibilities than the ones I pointed out above.
 
However there is the nature of the corporate world to take in consideration as well. While I'm sure local customs are adhered to the nature of how the corporate ladder is structured makes it far far easier for an uncaring sociopath to succeed rather someone who is more compassionate. I could go into more detail about this assertion but I'm assuming most people will know of what I am referring to. If not I can give a more detailed explanation if I need to.
 
I would think that it would be far more likely that we are dealing with uncaring corporate heads that only give "lip service" to their local customs such as Kibun, as corporations do here in the US and we should give this reality of the corporate world similar consideration as well.
 
Since we are all geeks and nerds here I'll use a D&D term most of us here are familiar with. Corporate executives are frequently Lawful Evil.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 03, 2012, 05:35:02 PM
I strongly disagree with the characterization that Corporate Executives are "frequently" evil of any stripe. Power does attract corrputable and corrupt people, but many executives - I would venture even the majority - are just men and women trying to do their best for themselves, their families, and their companies. Hanlon's Razor is in full effect, most of the time.

I would further venture that, especially in line with the kibun concept, characterizing them as evil is wholly and utterly counterproductive. We are not at war in a literal, guns-blazing sense, and since that won't happen in this context, we should not dehumanize anybody involved. And characterizations as blanket and black as "evil" have dehumanizing effects.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 05:35:23 PM
This is an amazingly huge amount of cultural information. Thank you, first of all, for digging it up.

This is far too much information for me to digest at this point, but I'll be picking it apart in the coming days. Time to Know Thy Enemy...
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Chaos Ex Machina on October 03, 2012, 06:01:41 PM
Well, there is a serious question here. Do we (1) try to help NCSoft repair their kibun , or do we threaten to utterly destroy their kibun? Doing the latter could cause a major paradigm shift, or it could backfire badly.

Positivity may accomplish a lot more.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: unladenswallow on October 03, 2012, 06:02:48 PM
I strongly disagree with the characterization that Corporate Executives are "frequently" evil of any stripe. Power does attract corrputable and corrupt people, but many executives - I would venture even the majority - are just men and women trying to do their best for themselves, their families, and their companies. Hanlon's Razor is in full effect, most of the time.

Yes I am aware that many of them are just doing what is best for them and their families and are not inherently evil. However cognitive dissonance can allow for all sorts of evil or just thoughtless actions by using just following orders or doing what is best for the company as as either conformation bias or adaptive preference formation by moral people who would normally not do something comparable in their personal lives. People who work for insurance companies that search for reasons to deny people claims to save the company money even though the policy clearly states that they should be covered, even if a person may die without financial help is a good example of what I am referring to.

I would further venture that, especially in line with the kibun concept, characterizing them as evil is wholly and utterly counterproductive. We are not at war in a literal, guns-blazing sense, and since that won't happen in this context, we should not dehumanize anybody involved. And characterizations as blanket and black as "evil" have dehumanizing effects.

I made no such blanket assertion nor did I "dehumanize" anyone. I just said this should be directly considered as well.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: unladenswallow on October 03, 2012, 06:29:53 PM
I'd also like to point out that these general assertions were NOT directed at the "Korean corporate world" but the corporate world in general. Which is not restricted by national boundaries.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Vulpy on October 03, 2012, 07:47:07 PM
they didn't pay close enough attention to our cultural morays,

they are only concerned about how they appear to their own countrymen in how they deal with us

Or they are wholy unconcerned with us

Just to be clear I'm sure there are more possibilities than the ones I pointed out above.

NCsoft's apparent decision to refocus on Korean and Chinese products, their dismissal of Paragon Studios on a Friday afternoon, and their perceived silence after the fact could all be construed as cultural blindness that approaches insular malignance by some. I am not one of those people, but I can see how the conclusion could be drawn.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 03, 2012, 07:55:28 PM
Well, they do care about what we're doing, because otherwise they wouldn't be making these announcements to us. They may only care because we can potentially destroy their future profit margin, but they do care about that.

So we should keep doing what we are doing, I'd say. If we do wind up causing their western market to fall through, it might force a change in management. And if not, then at least we have some small part of our revenge.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Lock-On on October 03, 2012, 07:59:51 PM
NCsoft's apparent decision to refocus on Korean and Chinese products, their dismissal of Paragon Studios on a Friday afternoon, and their perceived silence after the fact could all be construed as cultural blindness that approaches insular malignance by some. I am not one of those people, but I can see how the conclusion could be drawn.

Actually a few of those things can be construed as very Kibun things to do.  The Friday closure, the silence after the fact, even their announcement from yesterday, when viewed through the light of Kibun are indicators that they are strongly following their own cultural mores here.  Knowing that, gives us the ability to craft our messages to better appeal to that portion of their sensibilities.  It's something that I think may ultimately have a stronger impact on them then any financial argument.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Olantern on October 03, 2012, 08:11:35 PM
I have no idea how much cultural issues played into the decision to cut off CoH because I have no idea how large a hand Korean management took in the decision.  But it certainly can't hurt to know these things.

I do find it troubling that we already have characterizations of people as "evil" in a thread about the nature of harmony, though.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 08:31:58 PM
I have no idea how much cultural issues played into the decision to cut off CoH because I have no idea how large a hand Korean management took in the decision.  But it certainly can't hurt to know these things.

I do find it troubling that we already have characterizations of people as "evil" in a thread about the nature of harmony, though.

It's human nature. Here, Cracked did a very well put together article on the subject. You can find it here: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-reasons-humanity-desperately-wants-monsters-to-be-real/
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Kosmos on October 03, 2012, 08:38:18 PM
Nice work SR4. I wish I'd had something like this when I dealt with a group of Korean scientists and engineers a few years back.

One issue I ran into then is that Kibun seemed to make them inflexible on cultural matters. Kibun apparently doesn't make much allowance for accommodating the cultural norms of others. The concept of Kibun is simply too deeply ingrained. So you either play by the Korean rules or you are apt to lose Kibun in their eyes or cause them to lose Kibun in their own. And in the former case - as you're info suggests, but which I didn't realize at the time - they consider it polite to avoid those they believe have lost Kibun. Given that most of the Americans (including me) failed to "properly" introduce ourselves, we ended up with one side of the talks actively avoiding the other.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 03, 2012, 08:39:17 PM
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 03, 2012, 11:06:04 PM
I have no idea how much cultural issues played into the decision to cut off CoH because I have no idea how large a hand Korean management took in the decision.  But it certainly can't hurt to know these things.

I do find it troubling that we already have characterizations of people as "evil" in a thread about the nature of harmony, though.

Whether or not these "business people" are evil, business mentality drives humans to do evil things. Business decisions by their very nature are meant to be heartless. Anyone making such decisions, is able to just ignore the human aspect and tell themselves that they are actually thinking morally.

Modern capitalism, has told us that our main goal in life is to hoard money and material possessions; the polar opposite of everything philosophy has been saying for thousands of years. To use the word "evil" when discussing such matters, really isn't far off. The individuals themselves may not be evil, but you could easily use the metaphor that they have been 'possessed by the devil', and if that 'devil' did not exist, the world might be radically different.

Even the catchphrase that everyone uses to dismiss these evil acts, "It's just business", screams how hard people have worked in order to give 'business' carte blanche. Just imagine if every time America slaughtered a bunch of civilians overseas, the President was able to call a press conference and say, "It's just war." Just think about that for a moment. Business likes to tell itself that it is somehow better than war. Yet both of them destroy lives. Business kills, maims, causes poverty, homelessness, starvation, etc. All of these things are also negative aspects of war. Business isn't, and in many cases, decisions that result in such destruction, is even called GOOD business.

The pen is mightier than the sword? Perhaps. But only for one reason, that it has the world fooled into thinking that it isn't doing the same job. At least the sword is honest.

Evil indeed.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Valjean on October 03, 2012, 11:23:01 PM
From what I can tell, even NCsoft West doesn't quite understand NCsoft Korea and vice versa. This is part of what's making it hard for us. We're trying to behave as westerners, which the smaller subsidiary may get, but the folks who do call the shots in Korea don't get it at all. And if we try to act in an eastern way, NCsoft west won't get it.

Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: QuantumHero on October 03, 2012, 11:34:20 PM
I am trying to understand them, the practical, analytical, business side of me kinda does...or at least is starting to, but it needs a lot more data.  And yet apparently like the Koreans I am a being of emotion, very strong emotions...things like betrayal, crushing hope, and lies set me boiling.  I have a very, very long temper and a great dea of self control for the most part...forgiveness is possible, if Ncsofts abhorent behavior toward us and other communities really is caused by a misunderstanding rather then malise and dehumanization...then I want mutual understanding and education..we can all regain face by *learning* together.

I can forgive but not forget... is it remotely possible that they have so little insight into the western world that *forging* a letter was supposed to help save the Kibun of Tabula Rasa's creater an community....the implication is staggering and very sad.

We are trying to understand you, NcSoft...and help you recover face but I can not do that while you have effectively launched every game, every community with letters writeen in RED and striken all Kibun from our very existance.  You have deemed all your propertes and all those who care about them as inherantly lacking in all value...and in so do *you* have lost face without even realizing it. In repeatedly slaughter the Kibun of the western gaming community you have also lost all Kibun for yourselves.  Harmony comes from compromise, open minds, and open hearts.  Understand that much and we can begin to heal this pain on all sides.

Join us, wash the red away from both of us for we are all stained with it...we have all lost face...together this can be repaired through REAL negotiation.

Sit down at the table in earnest that is what we ask
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 03, 2012, 11:55:42 PM
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 03, 2012, 11:56:02 PM
From what I can tell, even NCsoft West doesn't quite understand NCsoft Korea and vice versa. This is part of what's making it hard for us. We're trying to behave as westerners, which the smaller subsidiary may get, but the folks who do call the shots in Korea don't get it at all. And if we try to act in an eastern way, NCsoft west won't get it.

Perhaps that's something we can work on? Give NCWest our observations and then ask them nicely if maybe we could all get back to the negotiating table with this understanding that there was a mis-characterization or cultural misunderstanding?

It seems with kibun being so central to the culture, to miss that one angle is to have no hope of understanding the rest.

Who knows? Maybe we could raise the morale of NCWest a bit by helping them understand their bosses better?

And wouldn't THAT be a feather in our cap? :)
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Kosmos on October 04, 2012, 12:00:51 AM
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.

Thanks.

Thanks for that reply Segev.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 04, 2012, 12:05:00 AM
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.

Thanks.

If it's inappropriate, then whatever. I clearly have no point.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: JaguarX on October 04, 2012, 12:17:57 AM
Business likes to tell itself that it is somehow better than war. Yet both of them destroy lives. Business kills, maims, causes poverty, homelessness, starvation, etc. All of these things are also negative aspects of war. Business isn't, and in many cases, decisions that result in such destruction, is even called GOOD business.



Sad part is is when anyone brings up doing something about that, the view is immediately viewed as "socialist", anti-buisness, wanting to destroy the economy, and used to be labeled "communist" for those old enough to remember those times.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 04, 2012, 12:19:43 AM
Oh - should mention in regards to my above post and elsewhere - I still think we should be making NOISE and warning other gamers off NCSoft products for now.

But we can also "kill them with kindness" at the same time.

Play good cop, bad cop.

Or moral "rope-a-dope" as it were.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 04, 2012, 12:29:08 AM
Sad part is is when anyone brings up doing something about that, the view is immediately viewed as "socialist", anti-buisness, wanting to destroy the economy, and used to be labeled "communist" for those old enough to remember those times.

Which is probably why it shouldn't be discussed further.

But no, I'm not anti-capitalist. Only the current popular version of it, if that makes sense.

If more businessmen/women had a moral conscience in their work that extended beyond concern for the size of their wallets, nobody would feel the need to complain. That moral conscience has slowly been getting phased out of existence. So while it's true that often customers are getting dehumanized, the folks with the power are doing the same thing to themselves. It's a very sad and vicious circle, and there's a good chance that it's the reason NC is "unable to find a solution." Too much greed for even the chance of a compromise.

On the topic of Kibun, am I right in interpreting it as being similar to good/bad Karma? It all seems to boil down to telling NC, in Western terminology, "What you are doing is immoral/honorless." Are we sure that Kibun factors into the business world over there? It could be just as irrelevant when it comes to business, as social morality is on this side of the pond.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: JaguarX on October 04, 2012, 12:39:21 AM
A stockbroker once told me "Greed is not a word in the world of buisness."


But you make sense.

It all depends on which morality I would assume. Buisness people usualy dont view themselves as immoral, or in fact most people dont regardless of their action. Most feel they are following the moral code of their environment. It might be a mixture of both. Just like some buisness will contribute to various charities and sponsor things then  turn around and fire people to cover the money they just gave out and consider that morally just.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: unladenswallow on October 04, 2012, 12:50:35 AM
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.

Thanks.

It was my post that brought this subject up and I am sorry that it has evoked such a strong response from you. It was not my intent to make this a point of contention but to address an international aspect of the issue that this thread addressed and how it relates to how we address NC Soft. I have strong opinions about similar issues as you apparently do but I unlike you have absolutely no urge to start arguing the morals of any socioeconomic models or systems with any one in this thread. Except of course Anarcho-syndicalism with Tim the Enchanter since he obviously represents the "violence inherent in the system" with his threatening explosive gestures.

I want to comment more but I am currently pressed for time. I will expand on this if needed or requested later.

I leave you with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKIWjnEPNY



Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 04, 2012, 01:22:25 AM
On the topic of Kibun, am I right in interpreting it as being similar to good/bad Karma? It all seems to boil down to telling NC, in Western terminology, "What you are doing is immoral/honorless." Are we sure that Kibun factors into the business world over there? It could be just as irrelevant when it comes to business, as social morality is on this side of the pond.

Hmm... No... I don't read it as good/bad karma myself. It's more like... A very codified and rigid code of consideration for others face/feelings.

Or to put it another way - a very powerfully Asian version of "don't rock the social boat".

I think good/bad karma could be -part- of it.

Honor as well.

But as the OP article said, it's a concept that doesn't really have a direct translation. It means many things all at once.

Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Fansy on October 04, 2012, 01:47:19 AM
I had two kibuns for breakfast, and a bowl of nunchi for lunch!
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: dwturducken on October 04, 2012, 01:53:36 AM
I had two kibuns for breakfast, and a bowl of nunchi for lunch!

It is SO hard to fin a good nunchi place in the Midwest!
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: WanderingAries on October 04, 2012, 01:56:51 AM
My brain got lost on the wall of text, but this came to mind:
"That was a waste of a perfectly good explaination."

Code for:
"Shut up and tell us what to do!"
:-p
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 02:58:12 AM
My brain got lost on the wall of text, but this came to mind:
"That was a waste of a perfectly good explaination."

Code for:
"Shut up and tell us what to do!"
:-p
At the risk of sounding arrogant, I suggest looking at my posts in response to this thread early on. I have not outlined a SPECIFIC course of action, but I did try to interpret the information into a general idea of how to frame our actions. It might give you some ideas. (I hope!)
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: darkquill on October 04, 2012, 07:02:59 AM
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Epelesker on October 04, 2012, 07:34:50 AM
Very enlightening read on the OP, sir. (Though I admit that I originally thought "kibun [気分] is a Japanese word! How does this--" You think that all the Gangnam Style I've been watching would let me know better.)
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 04, 2012, 08:21:00 AM
Except of course Anarcho-syndicalism with Tim the Enchanter since he obviously represents the "violence inherent in the system" with his threatening explosive gestures.

... it was the RABBIT! I didn't do anything!
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 04, 2012, 08:41:48 AM
... it was the RABBIT! I didn't do anything!

Yeah right, buddy. Come on, let's go. That's for a jury of your peers to decide, mister.

/me holds up cuffs


<.<
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Vulpy on October 04, 2012, 11:18:30 AM
Following StarRanger's lead, I found some more interesting info (on some of the same sites).

Here's one about Kibun and giving gifts in business settings:
http://www.korea4expats.com/article-gifts-in-business.html
Interpreting our sending masks and capes, our buying the devs dinner, etc, and then their note of thanks in response through this lens may be useful.

That is interesting. Should I ever have cause to visit Korea, I should probably bring some bottles of Jack Daniels. It's sad that the biggest brand names native to my region are whiskey and Mountain Dew.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 02:28:01 PM
The very end of the "contracts" article is interesting.

Do we have any MIT attendees or grads on this board? The CEO's wife (and, I believe, CEO herself of NCWest) is an alumnus, and the special relationship between those who share a school may be quite useful here.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: QuantumHero on October 04, 2012, 03:54:46 PM
Thank every single one of you for these resources...facinating reading it really is.  The beginning glimmers of understanding have tempered my rage but not my frustration...and yet they have also renewed hope for a solution that is heroic.

Here are my questions.

Kibun is face, it is similar to honor but not the same.  Right?  It is also the mantaining of harmony.

The other word, Nunchi is to see, to perceive..correct?

So how would a South Korean react to causing massive loss of face to another through unknowingly "closed eyes" what is the remedy for massive loss of harmony through ignorance in their eyes.

Is the admission of previously closed eyes and willingness to partake in mutual healing a real tactic?

By their actions, in having closed eyes to the nunchi of the west they have stripped Kibun from themselves and all of us.  I game company that says games and their communities are without face or value is not a company that should be making games at all.

But the other option is closed eyes that have led to terrible lack of harmony for all and the chance to make a tre gesture of understandin and apology...Ignorance can be forgiven deliberate insult is much more difficult.

Did that make sense?
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 04, 2012, 05:12:58 PM
Made sense to me.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Teege on October 04, 2012, 05:29:10 PM

/me holds up cuffs

No comment.  8)

But back on track. Very interesting read! Thanks for that information.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Knightward on October 04, 2012, 08:16:02 PM
I was able to follow it, Quantum.  And I think the answer is, "Depends on how well they cope with shame/embarrassment," which isn't much of an answer.  But I also haven't been doing all the research here.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mister Bison on October 04, 2012, 08:38:55 PM
Yeah right, buddy. Come on, let's go. That's for a jury of your peers to decide, mister.

/me holds up cuffs


<.<
You called me ?

/me flees
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 12:43:55 AM
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: JWBullfrog on October 05, 2012, 01:05:13 AM
Wow. Never tick off a writer. If anyone can pull that off, you can.
 
oh and FPAVV (if that counts here)
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 05, 2012, 02:48:13 AM
That is powerful, polite, and yet shows the "fit of anger to regain kibun" that sounds like it's acceptable according to the OP and related articles. It also is deeply shaming, coming from an "old woman." (Characterizing it that way makes you both vulnerable and yet venerable-and-wise.)

I have not shown the best of judgment in some of the things I've suggested or thought were clever in the last couple of days, so I want to take a bit of time to think on it, but I think it's a good move. I also think that getting a strong, solid hint in there or via some other avenue that this will get wide public release should CoH/V actually finally close down would be utterly terrifying to the CEO of NCSoft. I think, based on my extremely limited knowledge of kibun and asian culture and PR in general, that you've found a masterful way of hitting them with a shame that could force the directorship of NCSoft to retire if it became public.

What I write here is a probably poor suggestion, but perhaps some variant on: "Because of the gravity of this to me and those I have named whose sorrows lay at your feet, it is imperative upon my own honor that I be certain you have seen and understood it. No private response will be sufficient; I cannot be sure it is you who have sent it. Therefore, should no action be taken to restore the harmony you are casting to the ground to splinter into ten thousand irretrievable shards, I will make this plea in a public reading of this letter on channels and venues I know you will be unable to miss."

That's clumsy and too openly threatening, I think, but if that can be reworked to fit the rest of the letter's tone and be a little more subtle (so nobody can point to it and scream "extortion!"), I think that we should try to get the sentiment in there.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 05, 2012, 04:57:15 AM
Hm...  To this jaded cynical western ear, that sounds like "laying it on a bit thick".   

BUT...

You're not sending it to someone with a western ear. From what I've read on the kibun thread and related articles, I think this may be just right. Especially assuming it would be translated to Korean.

(For a comparative example - A lot of Asian emotional drama looks "caricatured" or "over the top" to Western eyes and ears It's why dramatic anime and Hong Kong Martial arts movies are still an "acquired taste" to many people. Although Asian comedy often translates quite well since slapstick is a common thing to both sets of cultures.)

I could be wrong though. Is anyone with a better "ear" for the kibun also thinking this looks good? I'm certainly no expert from reading what little has been posted here etc.

(And for what it's worth, VV - I have trouble thinking of you as "old". Blame those glamour shots of you they used for the hardcovers of your books. :)  )

Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Terwyn on October 05, 2012, 04:59:55 AM
Something else to consider mentioning is that this course of action is taking away the voices of many.

I have found it increasingly difficult to freely interact with people outside of my family in a direct fashion. I have not spoken a word to anyone I am not related to in the past three days, simply because I am no longer sure I can trust my own voice in regards to keeping the sense of betrayal from influencing my tone of voice and word choice.

I do not think I need to explain why it is important for one to keep one's voice from appearing aggressive and confrontational when there is no reason for such a tone to be taken with the person one is speaking with. It is really difficult for me to keep emotional control from bleeding into my voice when the feeling is of such intensity.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 05, 2012, 05:04:34 AM
Something else to consider mentioning is that this course of action is taking away the voices of many.

I have found it increasingly difficult to freely interact with people outside of my family in a direct fashion. I have not spoken a word to anyone I am not related to in the past three days, simply because I am no longer sure I can trust my own voice in regards to keeping the sense of betrayal from influencing my tone of voice and word choice.

I do not think I need to explain why it is important for one to keep one's voice from appearing aggressive and confrontational when there is no reason for such a tone to be taken with the person one is speaking with. It is really difficult for me to keep emotional control from bleeding into my voice when the feeling is of such intensity.
This is, from a western standpoint, a bit troubling, and I feel for your pain in this matter, Terwyn. If there's anything we can do as friends and fellow forumites, please let us know here or even in a pm.

From a Kibun standpoint, this seems the essence of just how badly they've damaged the Kibun of their customers and how their Nunchi is either utterly failed or they are deliberately scorning it. There is something in this we can use, much as I loathe the situation that makes it exist at all.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 05:13:36 AM
Added:

"There are people who are so burdened with sorrow, so burdened with anger over your actions, that they no longer dare to speak to others for fear their anger will overflow on those who do not deserve it.  You have stolen their voices, and you have closed your eyes to this.  I lay this at your feet."
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Terwyn on October 05, 2012, 05:15:06 AM
....
 :'(

Thank you.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 05:24:58 AM
....
 :'(

Thank you.

<hug>

Same here, but it's grief and not anger.  I can't even say the word "game" without breaking into tears.  Larry is terribly distressed on my behalf. 
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 05, 2012, 05:29:45 AM
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Terwyn on October 05, 2012, 05:30:27 AM
<hug>

Same here, but it's grief and not anger.  I can't even say the word "game" without breaking into tears.  Larry is terribly distressed on my behalf.

I can imagine. Humans have a tendency to reflect the emotional state of those whom they have the closest bond.

I suspect that the only reason why there is no outward expression of anguish that my family can detect is because my twin brother (Mentalshock) and I frequently discuss current matters. He does well to defuse the more volatile aspects of my mind.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Teege on October 05, 2012, 05:39:53 AM
...I am an idiot child, scribbling in the dirt.

/me stands in awe

...it is always. Always. A treat to watch one of the master wordsmiths forge a blade of script and prose. Thank you for sharing this.

Isn't it?
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 05:48:04 AM
Aside from Confucianism, a major religious form in Korea is shamanism, and I was going for the rhythm and flavor of a shamanic chant, since I have more experience with that than Confucianism.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Terwyn on October 05, 2012, 05:49:55 AM
Aside from Confucianism, a major religious form in Korea is shamanism, and I was going for the rhythm and flavor of a shamanic chant, since I have more experience with that than Confucianism.

There's a reason why a modern linguistic debate is whether or not human musical ability pre-dates human language. You've definitely hit upon something instinctual here.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Quinch on October 05, 2012, 06:22:29 AM
Aside from Confucianism, a major religious form in Korea is shamanism, and I was going for the rhythm and flavor of a shamanic chant, since I have more experience with that than Confucianism.

Hey Victoria, can you check your PMs when you get the chance?
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mentalshock on October 05, 2012, 06:23:14 AM
I can imagine. Humans have a tendency to reflect the emotional state of those whom they have the closest bond.

I suspect that the only reason why there is no outward expression of anguish that my family can detect is because my twin brother (Mentalshock) and I frequently discuss current matters. He does well to defuse the more volatile aspects of my mind.

As much as I do for you, you also do for me.   It's just that my volatile aspects are far more tightly contained.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mister Bison on October 05, 2012, 06:37:30 AM
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Zolgar on October 05, 2012, 06:54:38 AM
This is one great letter if I can recognize one, but even with as much respect I have, I'm concerned about the last paragraph.

Your letter risk being balled back because you only propose selling the game, where a lot more opportunities may exist. In fact, it's much more reasonable to think that all it could take to restore their Kibun, is to enter an open discussion, if not negitiation, with us that got hurt by their acts. The best we wish is this discussion to end with the IP sold to other hands, but if there is truly problems for them to sell the IP, stating their reasons is good enough. Coming open will "save face", whereas right now their obscurantism is hurting them more in our fan-publisher relation.

And a last far-fetched idea is to have Cryptic back up your letter as an "introduction" from a third person. It's also the last entity I think that may be needed to negotiate the IP/license, since NCSoft has acquired it from them.

Bison makes an excellent point here..

Otherwise, I share Grimm's sentiment. The pen truly is mightier than the sword, and it is a craft you have done an exceptional job honing over your years.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: MishaFox on October 05, 2012, 07:56:16 AM
I am really seriously tired of the stupid, badly bungled and rude handling by NCSoft. It all reeks of inept leadership and almost amateurish  thinking. The problem I see is that something is seriously wrong at NCSoft.

 How hard is it to understand GAME MAKING MONEY - KEEP GAME GOING and MAKE MONEY.

It's late and I'm preaching. Time for bed.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Epelesker on October 05, 2012, 08:03:14 AM
VV, I swear that if I hadn't already recovered from crying once today, I would have after reading that letter.

I'm going to agree on Bison's point as well, though. Encourage them to reapproach the table but don't explicitly aim for selling the game. Yet.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 09:41:57 AM
This is why I post and ask for the opinions of those of you that understand kibun better than I do.

I'll revise it to say something about coming back to the negotiating table to "give us the chance for our village to be saved."

Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 10:49:50 AM
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Vulpy on October 05, 2012, 11:24:45 AM
Revised text:

From my incredibly limited experience, this may hit on some cultural expectations--I believe that being able to properly produce poetry was considered a mark of high social standing at some points in Korean history. I'm no expert on Korean poetry, though, so I'm not sure what makes a poem "good" to a Korean ear. That said, I could produce some references if more research was desired.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: QuantumHero on October 05, 2012, 02:16:11 PM
VV,

That was a very powerful letter...studying comparative mythology has given me insight into what shapes many cultures, unfortunately when it comes to Korea I am still a child with barely open eyes....but a seeker of knowledge.  The only thing I can do is ask the uncomfortable questions that have to be asked :(

1. Is the admission of being childless helpful?  There are some cultures in which this would exponentially reduce your status.  There are some where an older woman without children well the thought of even finishing this sentance sickens me.  Is this true of Korea?

|2. Elder are honored in most of Asia to my knowledge, do we actually know this to hold true in Korea

3. Damaged children um, I hate even asking this, but do they find the damaged worthy of preservation?  <shudder>.

4.  Being female is there anything specific in the roles of women that could trip the efforts of women up in interacting with them?  Are women honored? Seen as Equals?

5. Bison may have a point on needing an introduction.

I don't like asking these questions...but the answers are important.

Please don't hate me for asking these questions.

Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: StarRanger4 on October 05, 2012, 05:22:17 PM
Nice research.  I think a helpful phrase you might want to look up in addition is 체면 (pronounced cheh myun), as it is the Korean concept for face or more pertinently saving face.

Thanks for kicking ass in the research StarRanger.

-Opti

It looks like its actually spelled Chea Myun, and I'll be starting to work that research later today.  Right now I have to take care of RL comittments to maintain family Kibun and the like. (its also why I've been seemingly missing the last few days)
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 05, 2012, 09:13:16 PM
VV,

That was a very powerful letter...studying comparative mythology has given me insight into what shapes many cultures, unfortunately when it comes to Korea I am still a child with barely open eyes....but a seeker of knowledge.  The only thing I can do is ask the uncomfortable questions that have to be asked :(

1. Is the admission of being childless helpful?  There are some cultures in which this would exponentially reduce your status.  There are some where an older woman without children well the thought of even finishing this sentance sickens me.  Is this true of Korea?

|2. Elder are honored in most of Asia to my knowledge, do we actually know this to hold true in Korea

3. Damaged children um, I hate even asking this, but do they find the damaged worthy of preservation?  <shudder>.

4.  Being female is there anything specific in the roles of women that could trip the efforts of women up in interacting with them?  Are women honored? Seen as Equals?

5. Bison may have a point on needing an introduction.

I don't like asking these questions...but the answers are important.

Please don't hate me for asking these questions.

Anybody who gives you grief for asking these questions can answer to me. We need to be able to ask the hard questions to each other, or we'll never get anything done. Each of these is a valid cultural question, one I think our research team needs to get on.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mister Bison on October 05, 2012, 10:26:00 PM
I actually only read and processed what StarRanger dug up. Fortunately it seems I got it right the first time, but blame it on luck, on the Chaos that made us all different. Things come immediately for some where it could get very long for others because they understood the opposite, because they "draw" on the random numbers was a fitting one or the opposite.

I'm into learning algorithms, especially "stochastic" ones, so I may be more willing to see humanity as a huge brute-force algorithm :P
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 05, 2012, 11:17:46 PM
I'm into learning algorithms, especially "stochastic" ones, so I may be more willing to see humanity as a huge brute-force algorithm :P
No, we're more of a hybrid Genetic Algorithm and Particle Swarm Optimization.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mister Bison on October 05, 2012, 11:21:17 PM
No, we're more of a hybrid Genetic Algorithm and Particle Swarm Optimization.
And each particle's error function is a Neuronal Network whose parameters are from genetics.

Wasn't it us that discovered "42" ? or we were made to discover the question ? That seems mighty plausible.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: StarRanger4 on October 05, 2012, 11:28:55 PM
And each particle's error function is a Neuronal Network whose parameters are from genetics.

Wasn't it us that discovered "42" ? or we were made to discover the question ? That seems mighty plausible.

The question.  Which, Mr Adams allegedly claimed was something along the lines of "What is six x seven"
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: pandora114 on October 05, 2012, 11:52:21 PM
The question.  Which, Mr Adams allegedly claimed was something along the lines of "What is six x seven"

Potato!
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 06, 2012, 12:28:53 AM
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!

Let's call the whole thing off!

 :D
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 12:33:01 AM
I'm not sending this until it's fine-tuned.  I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn.  I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.

But I'm not sure, so if anyone can dig anything up on either of those I would appreciate it.  You might have noticed I tinkered with the language a bit to make it more smooth and "harmonious." 

Since I plan to send this by overnight mail we have all weekend to work on it.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 06, 2012, 12:36:01 AM
I'm not sending this until it's fine-tuned.  I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn.  I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.

But I'm not sure, so if anyone can dig anything up on either of those I would appreciate it.  You might have noticed I tinkered with the language a bit to make it more smooth and "harmonious." 

Since I plan to send this by overnight mail we have all weekend to work on it.

If you think of anything a wordsmith-in-training can contribute, VV, just let me know. I think this letter of yours has a great chance at hitting the mark, and would like to make sure it succeeds. :)
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: QuantumHero on October 06, 2012, 12:54:47 AM
I'm not sending this until it's fine-tuned.  I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn.  I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.

But I'm not sure, so if anyone can dig anything up on either of those I would appreciate it.  You might have noticed I tinkered with the language a bit to make it more smooth and "harmonious." 

Since I plan to send this by overnight mail we have all weekend to work on it.

VV,

As another childless woman who holds enormous respect for you...I just wanted to offer you a hug for the things revealed in that letter and for any further pain I caused you by asking these painful questions...I was thinking of china and north korea with differently-able children you hit it right on the head.  I also hope they are more modern and that women are see as more then brood mares...but in Japan I understand that proper behavior is to walk behind one'shusband and they are also modernized in many ways.  They don't necesarilly haveto actually be degrading to women to have some small but critical piece of inter-gender protocal that could be very important for female leter writers..and there I ask for myself as well.

I am trying to decide if I am ashamed of myself for completely ignoring south korea in my quest to understand what shapes history and cultures across the world...but then I remember how little effort this company has previously made to understand us.  My words for them kep vacilating between pity for their ignorance and closed eyes, desperation for those eyes to open....and the desire to rip them multiple new orifaces with a razor sharp tongue.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 06, 2012, 12:56:07 AM
/me hugs EVERYONE in this  thread.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 01:19:52 AM
Just so you know, I didn't have kids because I didn't want kids, not because I couldn't have them.  However I am not averse to playing that card to my advantage.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: QuantumHero on October 06, 2012, 02:23:27 AM
Just so you know, I didn't have kids because I didn't want kids, not because I couldn't have them.  However I am not averse to playing that card to my advantage.

I undertand VV, at the age of 37 I am at the point of needing to make that final decision one way or another before biology makes that point moot.. and somehow why am just the least bit afraid of the prospect of playing cards with you   ;) but then ncsoft is the one who keeps trying to play the game of Bullshit (which actually is a card game btw) but I also liked the phrase.

In a story it would come down to a dramatic speach, an honorabl competition, or an epic battle...one thingis for certain...if we do go down and there is no prospect of reprieve, no cooperation then on November 30th...we make a personal forest of sorrows for ncsoft which protects all other western gaming communities forever.   I suspect my implication there is clear to anyone who has read or written  ;) a certain series of books.

We are heroes, and this is what we do :) 
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 02:30:18 AM
....but I don't want to turn into a tree!
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 06, 2012, 03:37:02 AM
Me, I do want kids. Scads of them. Hopefully, whatever girl is generous enough to wed me will feel the same.


And no, we're not turning you into a tree, VV. What do you think this is, Speaker for the Dead? :P
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Quinch on October 06, 2012, 02:34:02 PM
....but I don't want to turn into a tree!

And thus the "Mercedes is secretly Fluttershy" rumor is debunked.

Yes, I just made up that rumor. What's your point?
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: StarRanger4 on October 06, 2012, 03:04:34 PM
....but I don't want to turn into a tree!

I'd rather be the forest than the tree.  But I agree with VV in that respect.  Vanyel's curse, while powerfull, isnt exactly the way I wanna go out either.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 06, 2012, 03:40:13 PM
I'd rather be the forest than the tree.  But I agree with VV in that respect.  Vanyel's curse, while powerfull, isnt exactly the way I wanna go out either.

You gotta admit though - as final exits go - that one had STYLE.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mantic on October 06, 2012, 04:56:51 PM
All this focus on cultural angles gives me the image of trying to negotiate with Chiun from The Destroyer. Maybe that's a good image; one would not want to piss Chiun off.

In a story it would come down to a dramatic speach, an honorabl competition, or an epic battle...one thingis for certain...if we do go down and there is no prospect of reprieve, no cooperation then on November 30th...we make a personal forest of sorrows for ncsoft which protects all other western gaming communities forever.

It perplexes me that anyone ever expected... what? A transfer of ownership within a couple month's time and uninterrupted service come November 30? That's what it sounds like whenever folks speak of November 30 as if there is no hope of accomplishing anything on December 1, or in the following months or years. Are you aware of some nefarious plan by NCSoft to delete everything and burn all physical records at midnight, November 30?

Pressure to sell or license the property should persist just the same on December first. Shutting the servers down doesn't shut us down. Or shouldn't, at least.

Not that I'm against illicit measures, before and after November 30, but I'd hope such things are geared more to preserving City of Heroes than warring with NCSoft. Calling upon the DDOS wrath of Anonymous is not really my line of thinking.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: P51mus on October 06, 2012, 09:53:04 PM
Are you aware of some nefarious plan by NCSoft to delete everything and burn all physical records at midnight, November 30?

I have no idea what is usually done with account info/game info when a game is shut down, or what NCsoft plans to do with it when they shut CoH down.  Pretty sure just storing it all wouldn't cost too much, but if they don't want anything else to do with the game they might not bother storing anything.  And they haven't told us anything about it, so who knows.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Tacitala on October 07, 2012, 01:05:44 AM
I'm not the best/most organized researcher but I've done some preliminary scrounging that might be able to get someone who is a better researcher in the right direction.

I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn.

That seems to be correct, although there's a slight amount of panic (since it then falls to the government to lend a hand to the women, that puts a budget issue on the horizon)

Side note: if you follow some of the strictest ancestor worship, Congratulations! We're going to turn in to minor evil gods when we die.  See you in Dark Astoria and I call dibs on sending out the Elders of Sorrow.  :P  A more shamanic tone seems to be right on track: out in the countryside it's much more common for women to take up shamanism (http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/publications/afs/pdf/a495.pdf).

Quote
I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.

There is still a large stigma attached unfortunately, especially to children in the autism spectrum (which is blamed on the children's moms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother_theory) and seen as a shame to the whole family).

However a somewhat recent study on the number of children in the autism spectrum in S. Korea (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/09/health/research/09autism.html?_r=0) garnered a fair amount of press, so hopefully someone in the city would have a more modern view.

Hopefully.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 07, 2012, 03:28:04 AM

There is still a large stigma attached unfortunately, especially to children in the autism spectrum (which is blamed on the children's moms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother_theory) and seen as a shame to the whole family).

Interesting, since that would seem to work in the letter's favor, since it is the mothers of these kids who themselves found a way via CoH to turn the kids around.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Quinch on October 07, 2012, 04:18:19 AM
I have no idea what is usually done with account info/game info when a game is shut down, or what NCsoft plans to do with it when they shut CoH down.  Pretty sure just storing it all wouldn't cost too much, but if they don't want anything else to do with the game they might not bother storing anything.  And they haven't told us anything about it, so who knows.

Hit Streak said that they're probably planning to back up stuff. Check the stream from a couple of days ago.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 07, 2012, 08:31:20 AM
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience?  Or should I leave it as it stands?
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 07, 2012, 08:47:35 AM
I'm unsure. on the one hand, I wonder why they should get any warning at all, since they gave neither the players or Paragon Studios any warning of their intentions.

On the other hand - we're trying to play to a very specific cultural paradigm here. I have no idea if a warning is considered polite or if it's unnecessary or if in their culture "saving face" would mean they don't bring up such thing so neither should you?

Star Ranger? Got anything?
 
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Shaz on October 07, 2012, 01:40:17 PM
VV, thank you. Reading your letter was like reading what my heart has been chanting wordlessly for weeks now.

I, too, am childless, and will remain so.  While I do not consider 39 (dear god 40 in less than 2 weeks HOW DID THAT HAPPEN) to be remotely old, due to M.S. and other health problems my body suffers issues that are more akin to old age than middle age. I dread what might come when I have actual age-related issues on top of what I already suffer.

I spend most of my time trapped in my house. I cannot even spend much time outside due to severe heat sensitivity issues - I live in Louisiana, and it is typically dangerously hot for me up to 9 months out of the year. City of Heroes is not my only escape, but it is far and away the one that means the most to me. It is easy to play. It is friendly to solo or group. I can spend hours sitting on an island in the sky in Ouroboros, or flying in the sky, when I really need peace and escape from the facts of my life. Sleep has been difficult this past month. I either cannot fall asleep or I wake up in terror. I feel so trapped. Caged. Alone. Abandoned. Ignored.

Worthless.

And I lay that entirely at NCSoft's feet.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Kartanian on October 07, 2012, 03:26:56 PM
My wife was showing me an article on how NCSoft seems poised to replace CoH with Blade and Soul in Western markets. (It looks like adult entertainment replaces one of the few family-friendly MMOs, in this case. That should also tell us something about gender and violence attitudes in the NCSoft company decision making, as compared to this community's values. Article here (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/10/06/corps-shut-down-family-friendly-products/).) A point in that article grated against my understanding of business psychology, and the spark illuminated for me how the kibun concept may have played into the NCSoft decison making.

In Korean business, is it proper maintenance of kibun to quickly and softly dispose of "mistakes?" My wife said the article was suggesting that CoH is a cash cow. City of Heroes is no cash cow. A cash cow doesn't make up a mere 2% of revenue. In fact, despite the fact that CoH has been profitable, it may be considered a disappointment. Perhaps NCSoft leadership promised more to the directors, and the finanical and market performance of CoH is an embarrassment when put next to their other products. To preserve kibun, wouldn't it just be better to quietly trim that embarrassing product? There is no need to make a fuss or to say anything further; and certainly not to prolong or increase the visibility of the "bad" decision to have such a product in the inventory. This may explain the "why" of the decision. As other posters have suggested, it seems that NCSoft leadership has subsequently tried to implement its decision in the best way to preserve kibun.

Suggestion: Perhaps one way to approach this is to praise the charitable decision that NCSoft made in keeping the game for so long. They have supported their customers even when perhaps this decision should have been taken some time ago. Now, to further support their customers, NCSoft can lead the gaming community by seeking a worthy niche successor firm whose business model COH will fit, now that NCSoft has grown beyond this game. This would allow NCSoft to continue its good work with a wise business decision. They would be generous to the customers who are loyal to this product and wise to promote a niche firm that has no real competitive leverage against their preferred markets. In the age of online social media, the power of individual customers and collective networks is increasing. It may be wise for a forward-thinking firm to get out ahead of that trend and turn a difficulty into an advantage.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. Please take this for what it's worth.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 07, 2012, 03:36:07 PM
I'm unsure. on the one hand, I wonder why they should get any warning at all, since they gave neither the players or Paragon Studios any warning of their intentions.

On the other hand - we're trying to play to a very specific cultural paradigm here. I have no idea if a warning is considered polite or if it's unnecessary or if in their culture "saving face" would mean they don't bring up such thing so neither should you?

Star Ranger? Got anything?
Culturally, hinting at it without coming out and saying it allows them to exercise their nunchi to recognize something and take action to preserve kibun before they are shamed by the revelation that they "should have known" what was coming. If the hint is visible in retrospect but is not crass, then it likely will, when seen by "outsiders," reflect even more poorly on NCSoft for having had such poor nunchi that they failed to preserve kibun.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Kartanian on October 07, 2012, 03:36:40 PM
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience?  Or should I leave it as it stands?

With the existing tone of the letter, I would leave it as unstated but understood. I would suggest (if it's possible) getting someone to translate the letter into Korean. I wish I had a resource to offer, but this is a bit too far afield for me to be able to impose upon my Korean acquaintances for help.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 07, 2012, 03:40:04 PM
Kartanian's point about leaving the small way out to save kibun of "we'll praise your business acumen if you act with charity and correct your 'mistake' in a way that doesn't make another one - by finding a niche publisher" is a good one. While we ARE going to ramp things up at this point to make CoH's closing at least as big an embarassment to NCSoft as any form of keeping it running could have been, we should always leave the slightest door open so that, should NCSoft suddenly "realign" its position to serve our ends, we can help them spin the whole thing to a net positive as soon as the game is restored.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: StarRanger4 on October 07, 2012, 03:44:42 PM
Star Ranger? Got anything?

Not really.  Digging the stuff out of the net is one thing.  Doesn't exactly make me a cultural expert, though.

As a guess, I'd say no, though.  Even threatening this sort of loss of face could possibly be disturbing enough to cause them to bunker up even harder rather than bring them back to the bargaining table in good faith.

One other thought on it...  Make it a point that they're effectively destroying a whole village.  That happened a lot; it might still have enough cultural umph to make them think about it.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 07, 2012, 03:50:38 PM
I think the "threat of loss of face" will have to be subtle but sharp. If it's not there at all, they will ignore it. If it's unsubtle, they will feel they lose face either way. If it's subtle and sharp, it may bring them back just by virtue of their cultural instinct to watch carefully for cues and avoid loss of face that results from failing to read them.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mister Bison on October 07, 2012, 04:34:17 PM
My personnal stance on these kind of thing is to be honest, not subtle. Frankly, thelepathy is hard for me, and I don't know the others, so I help them out. But then I'm also frequently told I'm hard to discuss with. I've also read that telling your feelings instead of your reasonning is generally easier for people to listen, less pedantic. But a discourse that's whine only is also hard to take into account, so it boils down to tell your feelings and then propose something, or downright tell you're helpless and seek for help.

The bottomline could be that if the subtle letter is not understood well, get them a rawer letter, even phrased "if you don't answer, I'm going to assume it's because I'm not good enough for you, so I shall ask somebody else , tell them how I feel, and they'll know what you have done to me, to get help". It doesn't look like a threat, but truth is hard to hear sometimes.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: QuantumHero on October 07, 2012, 05:10:25 PM
<hugs shaz>

1. I had a taste of it, but only a taste.    A serious car accident that took me 4 years of very difficult rehabilitation....I have multiple herniated disks in my neck and came very close to ending up with an arm that barely functioned.  I will be on pain medication for the rest of my life because of it but at least for now I am mostly recovered.   What happens when aging comes into play, in the not to distant future....I do not know.

2. As for the tree thing folks, you all do realize I was being a tiny bit dramatic there I hope...right?   My background is public speaking, among other things folks so when I am not completely playing around/relaxing I tend to choose my words for impact. :)

I would rather see the pieces of our souls that we placed in this game, this community, preserved in an active forest and/or a gathering of vrondi (tap, tap, tap, ncsoft, tap, tap, tap) then thrown on a garbage heap or disperse over thier pre-arranged cliff like good little sheep.  Is that clear enough  ;)  Guard and annoy until the bad people go away :)

3. I don't expect arrangements for a transition/sale to be *finished* by November 30, Mantic....but they sure as hell better have *resumed/started* and be moving forward.

I want an actual real sign that this company is willing to turn over a new leaf and learn the difference between retiring a game and killing it....if not then game killer is the crown they will wear until it becomes crushingly heavy

4. But back to learning how to speak the language of face and vision and getting VV's letter out :) followed by many, many more.

My instinct is to subtly go for the jugular here, to threaten them with loss of face...as long as they actually understand it then subtle is better but *will* they understand?  And do I want to be sharp to make them also feel pain or because it is the right move...I know anger tries to cloud my judgement these days.  That I lay at their feet.  All the anger all the tears all the pain...it is so rare for me to get angry to border on hatred...and yet they have

Let them only listen and understand...see a course of action that restores face to all.  Let us have the wisdom to temper anger and pain into solution.

I am trying, we are all trying...are they?

   

Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 07, 2012, 07:31:30 PM
The reason for the subtlety is precisely because of kibun.

I'm like you, Mister Bison, but we need to be reaching out to their cultural standard on this one.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Matthew Orlock on October 07, 2012, 09:46:44 PM
F--- Kibun. >:l I just want my game, and my friends to stay.

Edit: *ahem* -eabrace
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 07, 2012, 10:06:25 PM
As do we all, Orlock; trying to use kibun to our advantage is probably our best hope.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: QuantumHero on October 07, 2012, 10:10:58 PM
<orlock> we understand...this is a tool, a way to maybe actually reach them...I understand that completely and am still struggling to hold my temper in check...half the time these days.  There is a huge piece of me that can think of kibun only as a weapon, a way to hurt them but we *must* try making them truely hear us first...we must.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Dollhouse on October 08, 2012, 12:11:35 AM
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience?  Or should I leave it as it stands?

IMO, the time for that move (hinting at greater distribution) would be after this version fails to get results. Hopefully, that won't be necessary...
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 08, 2012, 01:13:42 AM
Hey, it's only another $20 for an overnight letter.  I can ALWAYS write and send a second with "You clearly have shut your eyes to our disharmony, our grief, and our loss over the destruction of our village.  I must now lay this before the feet of your countrymen."

So the consensus seems to be send it as the "tuned" version, no further revisions.

I *might* know someone who could not only get this translated into good Korean, but would know what newspapers to send it to in Korea; one of our former CCCP members (Soviette/Untermensch/Chug, and yes, we've used his characters with his blessing in Secret World Chronicle) who has been living and working there for...3 years that I know of.  I'll get hold of him, he and I still correspond now and again.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 08, 2012, 01:43:19 AM
What I wouldn't give to have eyes in the boardroom or offices when it FINALLY begins to dawn on the NCSoft execs what kind of hornets nest they've kicked. :D

Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 01:44:38 AM
Excellent, VV! Good luck. ^_^_v

Atlantea: You're not the only one. Are we SURE we don't have any heroes or villains on our game who can break out of the fourth wall and do some super-spying for us? >_> <_<
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: QuantumHero on October 08, 2012, 01:48:59 AM
Translated into Korean is *good* <starts deliberately over-the-top dangerously mischievious laugh> oh to be a fly on the wall when this is widely seen.  Go get em VV.







 
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Phaetan on October 08, 2012, 01:52:45 AM
Are we SURE we don't have any heroes or villains on our game who can break out of the fourth wall and do some super-spying for us? >_> <_<
Not a Nemesis Agent insists that he's working hard undercover on our behalf.
Of course, he's said that to almost every group, ever, so keep your salt handy...
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 01:59:19 AM
Hey, if he's not a Nemesis agent, I'm not worried. It's only Nemesis agents that would worry me. *sagenod*
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Tacitala on October 08, 2012, 03:32:10 PM
Are we SURE we don't have any heroes or villains on our game who can break out of the fourth wall and do some super-spying for us? >_> <_<

...
...
Let's not go there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore)... yet.  Although I know there are characters well loved, and fully developed, enough to qualify.

Add another vote of getting the letter translated.  After all, it's only polite to send correspondence in the recipient's native language when possible.  Hopefully the rhythm will still flow when translated.
Title: Down and Dirty
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 12:16:05 AM
The closer it gets to Nov 30, the more I am inclined to the "up the ante" stage of this, but I am going to need a videographer and someone who speaks Korean to do a voice over for me.  I'm thinking about a You Tube video, entitled: Women of Korea!  THIS is how NCSOFT wants the West to think of you!

And use this footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel) with a voiceover of how NCSoft is pushing Boobs and Sluts in the West.

Thoughts?  If this seems like another good shaming technique I'll need an early start on it.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 12:32:53 AM
Wouldn't we need a fluent speaker of Korean for the vocals?
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 12:38:47 AM
Wouldn't we need a fluent speaker of Korean for the vocals?

That's why I need a long head start on this if peeps think it's a good idea.  I'd get it out there around Nov 15, so I would need that much time to contact Ken or, failing Ken, another friend who is working in Korea and get a sound file.
Title: Re: Down and Dirty
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 09, 2012, 12:51:52 AM
The closer it gets to Nov 30, the more I am inclined to the "up the ante" stage of this, but I am going to need a videographer and someone who speaks Korean to do a voice over for me.  I'm thinking about a You Tube video, entitled: Women of Korea!  THIS is how NCSOFT wants the West to think of you!

And use this footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel) with a voiceover of how NCSoft is pushing Boobs and Sluts in the West.

Thoughts?  If this seems like another good shaming technique I'll need an early start on it.

Gotta be careful on how this is worded. If I'm not mistaken, the slut walk began in Korea, which more or less a global fight to dress provocative without getting any negative comments. Is it even PC to say this is shameful anymore? Or could this end up making the liberal extremists bear down on us?
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 12:55:14 AM
I honestly don't know Korean culture enough to say if it would work or not. Sorry.  :-\
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Atlantea on October 09, 2012, 12:55:40 AM
You know I'd support anything you'd try to do on this front, VV.

First question that pops to my mind - is it possible to get any good read on what Korean women actually DO think about this?

Is gaming in Korea (and maybe by extension other Asian countries like China and Japan) an area nearly exclusive to young men?

I know that here in the West, there's been harassment of female gamers (thankfully not as much in COH). Is it prevalent enough in Korea to drive girls and women away almost entirely? Maybe this is one of the reasons for the objectification of women in B&S and other games - there's not enough pushback on it because girls and women in Korea simply stay away from computer games (or at least MMOs of that type)?

Before we can use this to shame NCSoft, it might be a good idea to find out what kind of reaction such an effort might receive. Will we get a "hell yeah! We're tired of that over here too!"  Or will it be "Oh? I don't associate with boys who play those games anyway, what do I care? I don't play video games anyway because women aren't welcome."

I would hope there's enough of a female presence in the gaming industry in Korea to even have an effect. But generally I suspect participation is low both as player and as designers, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing crap like Boobs and Shame in the first place!

It would be nice to know these things. Though in general I'd support anything like this.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 01:50:17 AM
These are all questions that I would like answers to, and don't have the time to research.  I could ask Ken, I expect...boy, is he gonna get a long letter...but if anyone else has time, please see what you can find.

My impression of Korean women is that they are very modest, and I don't imagine they'd care to be portrayed like this, especially not to foreigners.  But I could be wrong.

As to the Slut Walks, I think the point here is that this sort of portrayal of women is extremely exploitative, extremely objectifying (remember that the artist in question is male) and quite the opposite of what the Slut Walks are all about.  I'm about as liberal as they come, and I find the females portrayed in Boobs and Shame insulting, degrading, and infuriating, and I would even if NCSoft wasn't replacing CoH with T&A.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Optimism Penguin on October 09, 2012, 03:51:45 AM
Okay, working on limited knowledge from past misdeeds but here you go (Last trip to the peninsula was Fall 09' so cultural data is current as of that, but their culture also has a habit of changing very slowly):

Korean women are still fairly conservative as far as dress, personal appearance and decorum are concerned.  There is more western influence being seen in the younger crowds (teen-college), but to get ahead in life (good paying job, advantages in education for the kids, etc.) you still need to pander to the older generations who are still in positions of authority.  So, Korean women would most likely not like to be portrayed like the pictures we've seen of Blade and Soul.  On the other hand, the pop singers of Korean fame these days are fairly risque even by our standards, and their influence does grow.  Really, target audience is going to be pivotal for any efforts directed towards the Korean peninsula.

Amusingly enough, and I don't have stats, just my observations from my previous misdeeds, computer games are pretty huge over there (5 million-ish play Starcraft at least casually, and it is considered a national sport). E-gaming is actually a way to make a living, and the salaries some of those people rake in are comparable to some of our own pro-athletes.  That said, you can check the standings all you like, women are in a stark minority.

There is less of a true spirit of individuality and more of a communal follower-ship dynamic present in society.  Current issues that work to our detriment in attempting to get people to see anything in our perspective are as follows.

Target age groups: Too young and they have no influence, too old and they won't have a reason to care or sufficient cause to speak out.  This isn't an area that's really easy to exploit because it really doesn't effect them and their economy as a whole, and if nothing else anti-American sentiment is slowly on the rise again in the nation's youth through younger college age work force (granted this is usually subject to which way the wind blows a given day, and the current status of the Korea-US FTA, but that is a different discussion for a different time).

Style of gaming:  The preference for them is competitive gaming.  City of Heroes did not resonate with them at all, and with our lack of PvP options, one of the primary stress relievers and status builders in their gaming mindsets was completely nixed.  Frankly, our game doesn't have much to offer them, and never really did.  Also, games come and go for them like any other fad.  I doubt its uncommon for them to see a game go dark.  Hence, in the U.S. we've still got older games, but most NC titles have been pulled off line at some point or another (Tabula Rasa, Exteel, Dungeon Runners).  When they're done, they're done.  That's the mindset.

Corporate Communal-ism: One corporation doesn't get in the chili of another corporation in any overt ways.  You aren't going to get people who work for a living in company X saying anything about anyone other than their own company, and that is only to tow the company line.  Organizations are like family extensions out there, and they believe in very large extended families.  Tangent-If you think travel is a nightmare here on Thanksgiving, you should see what traffic looks like there on 추석 (Korean Thanksgiving-Aug 15 on the Lunar calander, roughly pronounced Chuseok (By the way, I really hate attempting to do Korean phonetics into English-they never Romanize quite right)).

Internet society:  Trolling, cyberbullying, and otherwise just absolutely flaming people to death for daring to be different (culturally 'different is wrong' is the mindset not the 'different is different' we have here) is rampant.  There really is a stigma about doing things in untested ways that really get's their collective hackles up.  You can rise against your peers and outdo them in the standard ways:  academically, physically, charismatically, but if you are somewhat of an individual, quirky, or downright weird people will collectively make your life suck.

We're not Korean:  This is probably the biggest problem any efforts to sway the masses will face.  They will protest the hell out of a domestic issue, and some of their protests make ours look fairly tame.  However, City of Heroes is a foreign issue dealing with foreigners and frankly they aren't likely to care.  Most Koreans do not ever leave the peninsula, and while they are very good trading partners-sometimes-the average person is fairly xenophobic and is prone to openly stare at foreigners in their streets.  It can be kind of creepy at times.

That's it of the top of my head, but I'm fairly certain I'm forgetting stuff.

I'm genuinely sorry for a post that is a lot of problems without solutions, but my arena is not the corporate setting.  I happen to know a few things about the society and language, and I feel it is best to be forewarned about any potential pitfalls or societal idiosyncrasies that may hinder rather than help.

That said I very much encourage all efforts with any plans to deal with the people directly.  Finding expats with current knowledge of people they can talk to or what websites and forums are likely to get any traction is the best information resource I can think of at this time.  I've got neither, and aside from being able to poorly and slowly translate the language (my skills are really not what they once were, and my time is really not my own these days), bits of cultural data is about the best I've got to offer these days.

Happy hunting and hit me up with a message if you need anything more in depth or if you want to yell at me for the pessimism.

-Opti
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 04:19:35 AM
*nods*  Sounds like the target audience wouldn't care.  Roger that, consider that idea ditched.
Title: Re: Down and Dirty
Post by: Terwyn on October 09, 2012, 04:55:12 AM
Gotta be careful on how this is worded. If I'm not mistaken, the slut walk began in Korea, which more or less a global fight to dress provocative without getting any negative comments. Is it even PC to say this is shameful anymore? Or could this end up making the liberal extremists bear down on us?

Canada, actually. Since it was a police officer speaking at a university in Toronto whose comments lead to the start of such events, one must conclude its causal nature is fundamentally Canadian.

But still, that art style is insulting.
Title: Re: Down and Dirty
Post by: epawtows on October 09, 2012, 05:25:04 AM
Canada, actually. Since it was a police officer speaking at a university in Toronto whose comments lead to the start of such events, one must conclude its causal nature is fundamentally Canadian.

But still, that art style is insulting.

Sexisim in games is a long-brewing problem.  See

 http://www.feministfrequency.com/  (http://www.feministfrequency.com/)

which involves one attempt to the issue.  And she's taken a LOT of abuse over it. 
Title: Re: Down and Dirty
Post by: Zolgar on October 09, 2012, 07:08:19 AM
Sexisim in games is a long-brewing problem.  See

 http://www.feministfrequency.com/  (http://www.feministfrequency.com/)

which involves one attempt to the issue.  And she's taken a LOT of abuse over it.

Because she's wasting the time she should be spending making me a sandwich! ;)

I kid, of course.

In all seriousness, what I've seen it could really go either way, could be decent.. could be hypocritical extremist feminism in action.
The problem with the feminist movement is there have been too many who have taken it hypocritical extremes and gotten away with it, to the point where.. the pursuit of equality has been tainted to be seen as the pursuit of privilege. (Don't want to derail the thread with any possible further rant, or discussion that may spawn from this.. if you want to discuss this, or yell at me for being a sexist pig, PM me.)
Title: Re: Down and Dirty
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 09:26:16 AM
Because she's wasting the time she should be spending making me a sandwich! ;)

I kid, of course.

In all seriousness, what I've seen it could really go either way, could be decent.. could be hypocritical extremist feminism in action.
The problem with the feminist movement is there have been too many who have taken it hypocritical extremes and gotten away with it, to the point where.. the pursuit of equality has been tainted to be seen as the pursuit of privilege. (Don't want to derail the thread with any possible further rant, or discussion that may spawn from this.. if you want to discuss this, or yell at me for being a sexist pig, PM me.)

Nah.  I'm a feminist from the original 60s round, and I agree with you.  I like my fellow humans with external plumbing.  It's the Neanderthals who want to drag us back to the 1850s I can't stand.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mantic on October 09, 2012, 11:57:59 AM
Not to naysay what you're doing, because it's inspiring how much serious effort you are putting into a letter and I hope that NCSoft recognize that when they see it, but I'm not sure that the modest and humble image of S.Korea is quite in line with modern reality. I admit, my impressions come mostly from the pop culture, but most of what I have seen from S.Korea in the last decade has been heavy on over-the-top violence and perversion. This material is aimed at S.Korean audiences first, too. Gangster movies (with both gun and knife violence) are big, and even their comic-books explore subjects of sexual perversion and incest (not quite so much the pedophile material -- that's more from Japan).

Is it possible that there is a disconnect between different parts of the S.Korean culture, just as there is here in the States with more rural society rejecting the extremes of our culture? As I understand it there is a stark economic divide in S.Korea, moreso even than in the US, so the cultural divide may also be more pronounced. But even if that is the case, would that not likely place the corporate leaders of S.Korea in the wealthy metropolitan sector that both produces and consumes these kinds of products?
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Turjan on October 09, 2012, 02:32:38 PM
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 02:58:03 PM
If that theory is right, Turjan, then I wonder how NCSoft would feel about somebody approaching them with a mobile ap game idea for CoH that required the base game to still be running for it to "work."
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 09, 2012, 03:59:01 PM
I think I'm beginning to see a future pattern here, a move from online games (an area that's come under social and cultural fire in Korea) to mobile gaming...which while unrestricted at the moment, could well become a cultural hot potato itself soon enough too. In the meantime, could it be that one way to keep hold of the online market is perhaps by going to extremes? Persuading people to play...and therefore pay...with more overt ploys (*cough cough* I'm looking at you, Blade and Soul...) and desperation because that market's 'golden goose' potential is beginning to fade?

If it's true, it's one more logical reason for NC to NOT drop CoH. If the market they want to focus on could be legally shredded at any moment, putting all their eggs into that basket is pretty foolish.

More than likely though, the push to mobile will just encourage developers to produce an update where one can call up their avatar on a mobile device and flirt with it.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Felderburg on October 09, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
*nods*  Sounds like the target audience wouldn't care.  Roger that, consider that idea ditched.

I think it's still worth a shot.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mister Bison on October 09, 2012, 08:25:59 PM
I think it's still worth a shot.
I think it's still worth waiting before making this move, make less edgy things first.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 01:09:11 AM
Let's see what things look like after Nov 2.

Anybody got any more ideas what can be done within the platform of kibun?  Gonna print and mail that first letter, since everyone seems good with it.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Segev on October 10, 2012, 04:03:45 AM
Anybody got any more ideas what can be done within the platform of kibun?
Only a mostly not serious one at the moment: Invite Kim and his wife to your home for dinner, and hope the present they bring is the IP.

Gonna print and mail that first letter, since everyone seems good with it.
Go for it! ^_^_v
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Mantic on October 10, 2012, 05:27:06 AM
If that theory is right, Turjan, then I wonder how NCSoft would feel about somebody approaching them with a mobile ap game idea for CoH that required the base game to still be running for it to "work."


Devious.

I like.
Title: Re: Korean Kibun
Post by: Tiberian Fiend on October 10, 2012, 07:38:43 AM
According to my extensive research on the ancient and noble Korean culture, they're terrified of electric fans. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death)  We should send them the scary Western-style fans without timers and threaten to keep sending them until they give CoH back.