Both Kibun and Nunchi are very difficult concepts for non-Koreans to get the hang of and we will generally be forgiven for our ignorance of these concepts and consequent rude behaviour, especailly if we are high on the status ladder. However, one gains more than one loses by trying to understand and, as much as possible, behaving according to these rules of behaviour.
A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).
That said, I'm curious about the "throw a tantrum" method of regaining kibun. Is it thus not shameful to do so? It would seem the ultimate violation of it, harming that of all around you as well as displaying you've failed to maintain your own, but it supposedly restores it. Do you have any further information about this?
Red enough?
A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).
Well, there is a serious question here. Do we (1) try to help NCSoft repair their kibun , or do we threaten to utterly destroy their kibun? Doing the latter could cause a major paradigm shift, or it could backfire badly.
I strongly disagree with the characterization that Corporate Executives are "frequently" evil of any stripe. Power does attract corrputable and corrupt people, but many executives - I would venture even the majority - are just men and women trying to do their best for themselves, their families, and their companies. Hanlon's Razor is in full effect, most of the time.
I would further venture that, especially in line with the kibun concept, characterizing them as evil is wholly and utterly counterproductive. We are not at war in a literal, guns-blazing sense, and since that won't happen in this context, we should not dehumanize anybody involved. And characterizations as blanket and black as "evil" have dehumanizing effects.
they didn't pay close enough attention to our cultural morays,
they are only concerned about how they appear to their own countrymen in how they deal with us
Or they are wholy unconcerned with us
Just to be clear I'm sure there are more possibilities than the ones I pointed out above.
NCsoft's apparent decision to refocus on Korean and Chinese products, their dismissal of Paragon Studios on a Friday afternoon, and their perceived silence after the fact could all be construed as cultural blindness that approaches insular malignance by some. I am not one of those people, but I can see how the conclusion could be drawn.
I have no idea how much cultural issues played into the decision to cut off CoH because I have no idea how large a hand Korean management took in the decision. But it certainly can't hurt to know these things.
I do find it troubling that we already have characterizations of people as "evil" in a thread about the nature of harmony, though.
I have no idea how much cultural issues played into the decision to cut off CoH because I have no idea how large a hand Korean management took in the decision. But it certainly can't hurt to know these things.
I do find it troubling that we already have characterizations of people as "evil" in a thread about the nature of harmony, though.
From what I can tell, even NCsoft West doesn't quite understand NCsoft Korea and vice versa. This is part of what's making it hard for us. We're trying to behave as westerners, which the smaller subsidiary may get, but the folks who do call the shots in Korea don't get it at all. And if we try to act in an eastern way, NCsoft west won't get it.
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.
Thanks.
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.
Thanks.
Business likes to tell itself that it is somehow better than war. Yet both of them destroy lives. Business kills, maims, causes poverty, homelessness, starvation, etc. All of these things are also negative aspects of war. Business isn't, and in many cases, decisions that result in such destruction, is even called GOOD business.
Sad part is is when anyone brings up doing something about that, the view is immediately viewed as "socialist", anti-buisness, wanting to destroy the economy, and used to be labeled "communist" for those old enough to remember those times.
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.
Thanks.
On the topic of Kibun, am I right in interpreting it as being similar to good/bad Karma? It all seems to boil down to telling NC, in Western terminology, "What you are doing is immoral/honorless." Are we sure that Kibun factors into the business world over there? It could be just as irrelevant when it comes to business, as social morality is on this side of the pond.
I had two kibuns for breakfast, and a bowl of nunchi for lunch!
My brain got lost on the wall of text, but this came to mind:At the risk of sounding arrogant, I suggest looking at my posts in response to this thread early on. I have not outlined a SPECIFIC course of action, but I did try to interpret the information into a general idea of how to frame our actions. It might give you some ideas. (I hope!)
"That was a waste of a perfectly good explaination."
Code for:
"Shut up and tell us what to do!"
:-p
Except of course Anarcho-syndicalism with Tim the Enchanter since he obviously represents the "violence inherent in the system" with his threatening explosive gestures.
... it was the RABBIT! I didn't do anything!
Following StarRanger's lead, I found some more interesting info (on some of the same sites).
Here's one about Kibun and giving gifts in business settings:
http://www.korea4expats.com/article-gifts-in-business.html
Interpreting our sending masks and capes, our buying the devs dinner, etc, and then their note of thanks in response through this lens may be useful.
/me holds up cuffs
Yeah right, buddy. Come on, let's go. That's for a jury of your peers to decide, mister.You called me ?
/me holds up cuffs
<.<
Something else to consider mentioning is that this course of action is taking away the voices of many.This is, from a western standpoint, a bit troubling, and I feel for your pain in this matter, Terwyn. If there's anything we can do as friends and fellow forumites, please let us know here or even in a pm.
I have found it increasingly difficult to freely interact with people outside of my family in a direct fashion. I have not spoken a word to anyone I am not related to in the past three days, simply because I am no longer sure I can trust my own voice in regards to keeping the sense of betrayal from influencing my tone of voice and word choice.
I do not think I need to explain why it is important for one to keep one's voice from appearing aggressive and confrontational when there is no reason for such a tone to be taken with the person one is speaking with. It is really difficult for me to keep emotional control from bleeding into my voice when the feeling is of such intensity.
....
:'(
Thank you.
<hug>
Same here, but it's grief and not anger. I can't even say the word "game" without breaking into tears. Larry is terribly distressed on my behalf.
...I am an idiot child, scribbling in the dirt.
/me stands in awe
...it is always. Always. A treat to watch one of the master wordsmiths forge a blade of script and prose. Thank you for sharing this.
Aside from Confucianism, a major religious form in Korea is shamanism, and I was going for the rhythm and flavor of a shamanic chant, since I have more experience with that than Confucianism.
Aside from Confucianism, a major religious form in Korea is shamanism, and I was going for the rhythm and flavor of a shamanic chant, since I have more experience with that than Confucianism.
I can imagine. Humans have a tendency to reflect the emotional state of those whom they have the closest bond.
I suspect that the only reason why there is no outward expression of anguish that my family can detect is because my twin brother (Mentalshock) and I frequently discuss current matters. He does well to defuse the more volatile aspects of my mind.
This is one great letter if I can recognize one, but even with as much respect I have, I'm concerned about the last paragraph.
Your letter risk being balled back because you only propose selling the game, where a lot more opportunities may exist. In fact, it's much more reasonable to think that all it could take to restore their Kibun, is to enter an open discussion, if not negitiation, with us that got hurt by their acts. The best we wish is this discussion to end with the IP sold to other hands, but if there is truly problems for them to sell the IP, stating their reasons is good enough. Coming open will "save face", whereas right now their obscurantism is hurting them more in our fan-publisher relation.
And a last far-fetched idea is to have Cryptic back up your letter as an "introduction" from a third person. It's also the last entity I think that may be needed to negotiate the IP/license, since NCSoft has acquired it from them.
Revised text:
Nice research. I think a helpful phrase you might want to look up in addition is 체면 (pronounced cheh myun), as it is the Korean concept for face or more pertinently saving face.
Thanks for kicking ass in the research StarRanger.
-Opti
VV,
That was a very powerful letter...studying comparative mythology has given me insight into what shapes many cultures, unfortunately when it comes to Korea I am still a child with barely open eyes....but a seeker of knowledge. The only thing I can do is ask the uncomfortable questions that have to be asked :(
1. Is the admission of being childless helpful? There are some cultures in which this would exponentially reduce your status. There are some where an older woman without children well the thought of even finishing this sentance sickens me. Is this true of Korea?
|2. Elder are honored in most of Asia to my knowledge, do we actually know this to hold true in Korea
3. Damaged children um, I hate even asking this, but do they find the damaged worthy of preservation? <shudder>.
4. Being female is there anything specific in the roles of women that could trip the efforts of women up in interacting with them? Are women honored? Seen as Equals?
5. Bison may have a point on needing an introduction.
I don't like asking these questions...but the answers are important.
Please don't hate me for asking these questions.
I'm into learning algorithms, especially "stochastic" ones, so I may be more willing to see humanity as a huge brute-force algorithm :PNo, we're more of a hybrid Genetic Algorithm and Particle Swarm Optimization.
No, we're more of a hybrid Genetic Algorithm and Particle Swarm Optimization.And each particle's error function is a Neuronal Network whose parameters are from genetics.
And each particle's error function is a Neuronal Network whose parameters are from genetics.
Wasn't it us that discovered "42" ? or we were made to discover the question ? That seems mighty plausible.
The question. Which, Mr Adams allegedly claimed was something along the lines of "What is six x seven"
I'm not sending this until it's fine-tuned. I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn. I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.
But I'm not sure, so if anyone can dig anything up on either of those I would appreciate it. You might have noticed I tinkered with the language a bit to make it more smooth and "harmonious."
Since I plan to send this by overnight mail we have all weekend to work on it.
I'm not sending this until it's fine-tuned. I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn. I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.
But I'm not sure, so if anyone can dig anything up on either of those I would appreciate it. You might have noticed I tinkered with the language a bit to make it more smooth and "harmonious."
Since I plan to send this by overnight mail we have all weekend to work on it.
Just so you know, I didn't have kids because I didn't want kids, not because I couldn't have them. However I am not averse to playing that card to my advantage.
....but I don't want to turn into a tree!
....but I don't want to turn into a tree!
I'd rather be the forest than the tree. But I agree with VV in that respect. Vanyel's curse, while powerfull, isnt exactly the way I wanna go out either.
In a story it would come down to a dramatic speach, an honorabl competition, or an epic battle...one thingis for certain...if we do go down and there is no prospect of reprieve, no cooperation then on November 30th...we make a personal forest of sorrows for ncsoft which protects all other western gaming communities forever.
Are you aware of some nefarious plan by NCSoft to delete everything and burn all physical records at midnight, November 30?
I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn.
I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.
There is still a large stigma attached unfortunately, especially to children in the autism spectrum (which is blamed on the children's moms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother_theory) and seen as a shame to the whole family).
I have no idea what is usually done with account info/game info when a game is shut down, or what NCsoft plans to do with it when they shut CoH down. Pretty sure just storing it all wouldn't cost too much, but if they don't want anything else to do with the game they might not bother storing anything. And they haven't told us anything about it, so who knows.
I'm unsure. on the one hand, I wonder why they should get any warning at all, since they gave neither the players or Paragon Studios any warning of their intentions.Culturally, hinting at it without coming out and saying it allows them to exercise their nunchi to recognize something and take action to preserve kibun before they are shamed by the revelation that they "should have known" what was coming. If the hint is visible in retrospect but is not crass, then it likely will, when seen by "outsiders," reflect even more poorly on NCSoft for having had such poor nunchi that they failed to preserve kibun.
On the other hand - we're trying to play to a very specific cultural paradigm here. I have no idea if a warning is considered polite or if it's unnecessary or if in their culture "saving face" would mean they don't bring up such thing so neither should you?
Star Ranger? Got anything?
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience? Or should I leave it as it stands?
Star Ranger? Got anything?
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience? Or should I leave it as it stands?
Are we SURE we don't have any heroes or villains on our game who can break out of the fourth wall and do some super-spying for us? >_> <_<Not a Nemesis Agent insists that he's working hard undercover on our behalf.
Are we SURE we don't have any heroes or villains on our game who can break out of the fourth wall and do some super-spying for us? >_> <_<
Wouldn't we need a fluent speaker of Korean for the vocals?
The closer it gets to Nov 30, the more I am inclined to the "up the ante" stage of this, but I am going to need a videographer and someone who speaks Korean to do a voice over for me. I'm thinking about a You Tube video, entitled: Women of Korea! THIS is how NCSOFT wants the West to think of you!
And use this footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel) with a voiceover of how NCSoft is pushing Boobs and Sluts in the West.
Thoughts? If this seems like another good shaming technique I'll need an early start on it.
Gotta be careful on how this is worded. If I'm not mistaken, the slut walk began in Korea, which more or less a global fight to dress provocative without getting any negative comments. Is it even PC to say this is shameful anymore? Or could this end up making the liberal extremists bear down on us?
Canada, actually. Since it was a police officer speaking at a university in Toronto whose comments lead to the start of such events, one must conclude its causal nature is fundamentally Canadian.
But still, that art style is insulting.
Sexisim in games is a long-brewing problem. See
http://www.feministfrequency.com/ (http://www.feministfrequency.com/)
which involves one attempt to the issue. And she's taken a LOT of abuse over it.
Because she's wasting the time she should be spending making me a sandwich! ;)
I kid, of course.
In all seriousness, what I've seen it could really go either way, could be decent.. could be hypocritical extremist feminism in action.
The problem with the feminist movement is there have been too many who have taken it hypocritical extremes and gotten away with it, to the point where.. the pursuit of equality has been tainted to be seen as the pursuit of privilege. (Don't want to derail the thread with any possible further rant, or discussion that may spawn from this.. if you want to discuss this, or yell at me for being a sexist pig, PM me.)
I think I'm beginning to see a future pattern here, a move from online games (an area that's come under social and cultural fire in Korea) to mobile gaming...which while unrestricted at the moment, could well become a cultural hot potato itself soon enough too. In the meantime, could it be that one way to keep hold of the online market is perhaps by going to extremes? Persuading people to play...and therefore pay...with more overt ploys (*cough cough* I'm looking at you, Blade and Soul...) and desperation because that market's 'golden goose' potential is beginning to fade?
*nods* Sounds like the target audience wouldn't care. Roger that, consider that idea ditched.
I think it's still worth a shot.I think it's still worth waiting before making this move, make less edgy things first.
Anybody got any more ideas what can be done within the platform of kibun?Only a mostly not serious one at the moment: Invite Kim and his wife to your home for dinner, and hope the present they bring is the IP.
Gonna print and mail that first letter, since everyone seems good with it.Go for it! ^_^_v
If that theory is right, Turjan, then I wonder how NCSoft would feel about somebody approaching them with a mobile ap game idea for CoH that required the base game to still be running for it to "work."