Author Topic: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT  (Read 11756 times)

Arcana

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2018, 02:10:34 AM »
I don't see it.

Spoiler for Hidden:
It's a dark ending where the bad guy has dramatically won with grave consequences for the entire universe either way.  Without any more details, it can't even be called a bare glimmer of hope in the darkness, and even if it were taken as such it's tarnished itself by the dissolution of Fury.

Spoiler for ending:

Spoiler for Hidden:
The nominal ending is: Thanos wins, the end.  Of course, outside the movie we know that's not the end, but narratively it has some element of finality even with Dr. Strange's prophetic last words.  But with the stinger, there is the narrative sense that Nick Fury has one last trick up his sleeve that could change things.

And if we keep our perspective flipped and see this as Thanos' story, then the stinger is exactly like the ending of a horror movie where there's the hint that the villain might not be completely defeated.  If Thanos is the protagonist, then he recovers the stones, creates the ultimate weapon, faces the ultimate enemy in Thor, and with his dying breath he defeats his foes and sets the universe right.  And then in the stinger, we see that maybe Thanos didn't defeat his greatest threat, and an even greater threat might be on the horizon.

Arcana

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2018, 02:27:50 AM »
I don't see it either

Spoiler for Hidden:
Just seems like the usual set up for the next character they've been doing since IM. Because to me Doc Strange's use of the time stone pretty much invalidates any of the grave consequences we see from that point on. Now maybe they won't just have Thanos put it all back the way it was or have it revert when Tony tricks him into saying 'Sonaht' or have them all reappear on Battleworld at the end of part 2 or whatever. But I have trouble accepting anything after a character views possible futures, sees one scenario that turns out well, then does something seemingly ridiculous.

Spoiler for the ending of Infinity War:
Spoiler for Hidden:
One thing I think we all have to keep in mind is that the MCU is not the main Marvel Universe.  The Infinity Stones are not the Infinity Gems and the MCU Infinity Gauntlet is not the 616 Gauntlet.  Thanos was not omnipotent and omniscient in Infinity War.  Thor almost killed Thanos, and Stormbreaker was able to resist the power of the Infinity Gauntlet.  The stones give the wielder control over different aspects of existence, but that control is not infinite.  Unlike in the 616 universe, Thanos *destroys* the Gauntlet when he uses enough power to destroy half the life in the universe.  And unlike in the 616 universe, the Soul stone extracts a permanent cost from the user: they must surrender the soul of someone they love.  Thanos couldn't recreate Gamora even when he had the Gauntlet, even though it is clear he would have if he could.

With the Gauntlet destroyed, the only way to reverse the effects of Infinity War with the Infinity Stones is to recreate the gauntlet and wield the stones.  And it is entirely possible that to wield the Soul stone, an Avenger will have to pay the same price Thanos did.  We've also seen it established in the MCU that wielding the infinity stones extracts a significant cost on the user: lesser beings can be destroyed even trying to hold them.  Thanos is an extremely powerful being.  There's no guarantee that any one of the Avengers could wield the Infinity Gauntlet in the same way as Thanos, which means the cost of trying to reverse its effects could be much higher than the cost that Thanos had to pay.

We know that Dr. Strange foresaw a way for the Avengers to win.  But we don't know what the cost of that victory will be.  But it is implied that cost will be high.  When Strange tells them he only saw one future in which they win, he says it in a very ominous tone, like its not an entirely happy ending.  Outside the fourth wall, we know there are limits to what the Russos can really do in Avengers 4.  But given the narrative to date,
 we really are given no reason to believe that the damage done in Avengers 3 is completely reversible.

Vee

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2018, 03:20:46 AM »
Spoiler for ending:

Spoiler for Hidden:
The nominal ending is: Thanos wins, the end.  Of course, outside the movie we know that's not the end, but narratively it has some element of finality even with Dr. Strange's prophetic last words.  But with the stinger, there is the narrative sense that Nick Fury has one last trick up his sleeve that could change things.

And if we keep our perspective flipped and see this as Thanos' story, then the stinger is exactly like the ending of a horror movie where there's the hint that the villain might not be completely defeated.  If Thanos is the protagonist, then he recovers the stones, creates the ultimate weapon, faces the ultimate enemy in Thor, and with his dying breath he defeats his foes and sets the universe right.  And then in the stinger, we see that maybe Thanos didn't defeat his greatest threat, and an even greater threat might be on the horizon.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I see so basically this is letting super casual fans only familiar with the MCU that Fury has another plan. Anyone familiar with the comics knows Fury always has another plan, up to and including sniping cosmic beings from asteroids with space rifles. Also most would probably know Cap Marvel is scheduled before A4. But yeah, i'll buy that logic.

And sure, whatever will have consequences. My guess will be at the least Tony will die based both on RDJ getting older and probably tired of the character after so many movies but also based on the engagement to Pepper and standard cop-a-week-from-retirement logic. But I don't believe for a second they'd leave Peter or T'Challa dead.

Dev7on

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2018, 03:38:30 AM »
I loved the movie. I've never had different emotions while watching a movie. But, I have some questions:

Spoiler for Hidden:
How did Thanos knew the Power Stone was at Nova Core? How did Thanos knew Loki have the Space Stone? How did he knew the
The Collector had the Reality Stone? And...... Dr. Strange. He knew all of the stones were expect for the Soul Stone which he had to torture Nebula to force Gamora to tell him where it was.

Tenzhi

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2018, 05:57:34 AM »
Hard to say.  If he had made it his life's mission, and had a vast army at his disposal, and thus likely had agents looking for the stones across the galaxy the question wouldn't even be worth asking.  But I just couldn't say.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

hurple

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2018, 01:29:35 PM »
Spoiler for ending:

Spoiler for Hidden:
The nominal ending is: Thanos wins, the end.  Of course, outside the movie we know that's not the end, but narratively it has some element of finality even with Dr. Strange's prophetic last words.  But with the stinger, there is the narrative sense that Nick Fury has one last trick up his sleeve that could change things.

And if we keep our perspective flipped and see this as Thanos' story, then the stinger is exactly like the ending of a horror movie where there's the hint that the villain might not be completely defeated.  If Thanos is the protagonist, then he recovers the stones, creates the ultimate weapon, faces the ultimate enemy in Thor, and with his dying breath he defeats his foes and sets the universe right.  And then in the stinger, we see that maybe Thanos didn't defeat his greatest threat, and an even greater threat might be on the horizon.

Maybe everything from Dr Strange going into a trance to the end was just a mental image implanted in Thanos' mind by the Martian Manhunter.  The same way he defeated Despero during JLI...

Oh, wait...


hurple

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2018, 01:31:21 PM »
Maybe the next movie will open with Thanos waking up, and when he goes to take a shower, half the universe will be in there, and it will have all been a dream.

 :o

LateNights

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2018, 07:16:29 PM »
Spoiler for the ending of Infinity War:
Spoiler for Hidden:
With the Gauntlet destroyed, the only way to reverse the effects of Infinity War with the Infinity Stones is to recreate the gauntlet and wield the stones.  And it is entirely possible that to wield the Soul stone, an Avenger will have to pay the same price Thanos did.  We've also seen it established in the MCU that wielding the infinity stones extracts a significant cost on the user: lesser beings can be destroyed even trying to hold them.  Thanos is an extremely powerful being.  There's no guarantee that any one of the Avengers could wield the Infinity Gauntlet in the same way as Thanos, which means the cost of trying to reverse its effects could be much higher than the cost that Thanos had to pay.

We know that Dr. Strange foresaw a way for the Avengers to win.  But we don't know what the cost of that victory will be.  But it is implied that cost will be high.  When Strange tells them he only saw one future in which they win, he says it in a very ominous tone, like its not an entirely happy ending.  Outside the fourth wall, we know there are limits to what the Russos can really do in Avengers 4.  But given the narrative to date,
 we really are given no reason to believe that the damage done in Avengers 3 is completely reversible.

I like this idea alot - Strange seems the most apt choice for my money.

The lead up is gonna be a hell of a ride!

Btw, has anyone else heard the rumours Hugh Jackman was seen in the Avengers set??

CG

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2018, 08:39:37 PM »
I loved the movie. I've never had different emotions while watching a movie. But, I have some questions:

Spoiler for Hidden:
How did Thanos knew the Power Stone was at Nova Core? How did Thanos knew Loki have the Space Stone? How did he knew the
The Collector had the Reality Stone? And...... Dr. Strange. He knew all of the stones were expect for the Soul Stone which he had to torture Nebula to force Gamora to tell him where it was.

Spoiler for Hidden:
The Power Stone was probably a reasonable guess based on the events of GotG Vol1.

Thanos might not have known that Loki had the storn, but since the Asgardians had it last, that's a good place to start.

As for the Reality Stone, I suspect that nothing goes unnoticed on Knowhere and he just paid/tortured someone for information.

Arcana

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2018, 09:11:02 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
I see so basically this is letting super casual fans only familiar with the MCU that Fury has another plan. Anyone familiar with the comics knows Fury always has another plan, up to and including sniping cosmic beings from asteroids with space rifles. Also most would probably know Cap Marvel is scheduled before A4. But yeah, i'll buy that logic.

And sure, whatever will have consequences. My guess will be at the least Tony will die based both on RDJ getting older and probably tired of the character after so many movies but also based on the engagement to Pepper and standard cop-a-week-from-retirement logic. But I don't believe for a second they'd leave Peter or T'Challa dead.

I judge the narrative by what's in the movie, or in this case what's in the series of movies collectively.  I know how both Titanic and Schindler's List ultimately have to end, but I still generally judge the story by its internal logic and not the meta one.  If you judge stories by the super-meta perspective, I don't see how there can be any such thing as an interesting story.  As they say in chess, you'd be playing the player, not the board.

As to your specific guess:

Spoiler for Hidden:
I think the Russos have demonstrated enough daring that the ending isn't certain even with all the meta context we know.  For example, it is possible they are setting up Tony to be the sacrificial lamb, but it also seems entirely possible to me that they are setting up Tony to be the one to make the sacrifice.  And he's already been willing to sacrifice his life once before, in the first Avengers movie.  For Tony, he's gone from being someone that is very selfish to someone that almost has a martyr complex.  For Tony, dying isn't the same sacrifice it was prior to the first Avengers movie.  For Tony, the more difficult sacrifice would be giving up something he loves, as Thanos did.  Throughout the movies, the one thing Tony consistently cares about more than anything else is Pepper.

Tony being the one to die seems obvious, but maybe that's a red herring.  Barring that, having to sacrifice Pepper also seems obvious, but maybe that's also a red herring.  I think we know something with a certain kind of shape has to happen, but I think the Russos have carved out a space where they can go in different directions and anyone who claims to be sure which one it will be is just wildly guessing.

For me, the dynamic tension is between the overarching story being about Tony's story, but the most obvious person to depart the franchise being Chris Evans.  Heck, maybe the daring thing the Russos' are going to pull off is that the original Avengers are the ones to survive because *all* of them are the ones to make the ultimate sacrifice to bring the others back, in an echo of the Guardians of the Galaxy collectively wielding the power stone.  That would be something.

Of course with sequels coming Spiderman isn't going to perma-die and it is unlikely that Black Panther will die.  But given that the basic story of Avengers 3 and 4 were laid out before everyone knew Black Panther was going to be a mega hit and given that there are ways to go to continue the Black Panther movies without T'Challa (Shuri, perhaps) I wouldn't bet my life savings on it.  There's just enough *tiny* uncertainty to make it interesting for me.

Arcana

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2018, 09:25:09 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
The Power Stone was probably a reasonable guess based on the events of GotG Vol1.

Thanos might not have known that Loki had the storn, but since the Asgardians had it last, that's a good place to start.

As for the Reality Stone, I suspect that nothing goes unnoticed on Knowhere and he just paid/tortured someone for information.

Small spoiler for the plot of Infinity War *and* somewhat bigger one for Thor Ragnarok:
Spoiler for Hidden:
There's two things to consider regarding the Reality Stone.  The obvious thing is that the Collector had a bounty out on the artifact we now know contained an infinity stone in Guardians 1.  So he's an obvious person to investigate if you were looking for infinity stones.

Here's the less obvious thing to consider.  We know at least two Asgardians knew the location of the Reality stone: Sif and Volstagg.  Volstagg is killed in Thor Ragnarok.  But no one knows what happened to Sif in-universe.  We don't see her, but it is possible Thanos extracts the location of the Reality stone from Sif off-screen.

Tenzhi

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2018, 09:52:02 PM »
If we're only judging the narrative by what's in the movie (or series of movies):

Spoiler for Hidden:
There's nothing to indicate Fury's message/plan/whatever will change anything.  Especially when there's no indication that he knows specifically what's going on.  Without meta-knowledge it's a call out to an unknown entity who just might be dead, and who certainly has no indication that they could possibly deal with a cosmic level threat that's balked gods, monsters, superheroes, and ultra-wizards.  It doesn't raise hope (or challenge Thanos' victory), it just raises further questions.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Arcana

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2018, 10:22:28 PM »
If we're only judging the narrative by what's in the movie (or series of movies):

Spoiler for Hidden:
There's nothing to indicate Fury's message/plan/whatever will change anything.  Especially when there's no indication that he knows specifically what's going on.  Without meta-knowledge it's a call out to an unknown entity who just might be dead, and who certainly has no indication that they could possibly deal with a cosmic level threat that's balked gods, monsters, superheroes, and ultra-wizards.  It doesn't raise hope (or challenge Thanos' victory), it just raises further questions.

Spoiler for Hidden:
It doesn't have to spell out in what way Fury's message will change anything.  It says this story isn't over.  And while I'm judging the story primarily from the events within the story, I'm still judging it as a story and not a found footage film.  When the story presents such a scene to me - or to anyone - it signals a continuation of the story in a significant way, because we're primed to believe that when a story teller tells us something, it isn't an unimportant insignificant detail to the overall story.  Hitchcock doesn't have to promise an explosion when he shows the bomb.  We know that when Hitchcock shows us a bomb its because Hitchcock intends to have something happen next involving the bomb.

It does raise questions, but that's the point.  It ends the movie with people asking questions about whether this will be important, and if so in what way.  As opposed to ending the movie where the last thing we see is the (apparent) bittersweet happy ending for Thanos.

Vee

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2018, 10:39:14 PM »
I don't see how there can be any such thing as an interesting story.

If you add in a mysterious compulsion to watch anyway you'd have me down to a T :D

Spoiler for Hidden:
BTW re MCU vs comics universe - anyone else wish we'd gotten a Collector who was more in line with the comics than just a Benicio cameo vehicle? A fight between him and Thanos where he's using the Tactigon (weapon that automatically counters its opponent), a whole arsenal of other crazy weapons and gadgets and letting out any number of ridiculous beasts would have been a lot more fun than just seeing the after effects of what looked to be a very one-sided affair.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 10:51:25 PM by Vee »

Tenzhi

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2018, 02:09:08 AM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
It says this story isn't over.

I think I can say without spoilers that even without the after credits scene no sensible person familiar with the movies would've thought that it was.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

LateNights

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2018, 03:35:17 AM »
I like this idea alot - Strange seems the most apt choice for my money.

The lead up is gonna be a hell of a ride!

Btw, has anyone else heard the rumours Hugh Jackman was seen on the Avengers set??

Vee

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2018, 03:45:34 AM »
I believe I heard something about those rumours yesterday. Around 7:16:29 pm-ish.

Arcana

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2018, 03:55:04 AM »
I think I can say without spoilers that even without the after credits scene no sensible person familiar with the movies would've thought that it was.

Well yes and no.  Many people said they were emotionally affected by the ending, because many people process stories as they are presented without analyzing them in their heads in real time.  You might "know" that Avengers 4 is coming, but that doesn't mean that knowledge colors everyone's experience of watching the movie.  Being shown something or told something is different than knowing.

Arcana

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2018, 03:58:21 AM »
I believe I heard something about those rumours yesterday. Around 7:16:29 pm-ish.

I first heard those rumors on 4/1.

Tenzhi

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Re: Avengers:Infinity War. GO SEE IT
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2018, 06:03:02 AM »
Well yes and no.  Many people said they were emotionally affected by the ending, because many people process stories as they are presented without analyzing them in their heads in real time.  You might "know" that Avengers 4 is coming, but that doesn't mean that knowledge colors everyone's experience of watching the movie.  Being shown something or told something is different than knowing.

The credits were so long that by the time the requisite after credit scene appeared the processing of the movie's story should've been well over.  I'm not arguing that the ending wasn't emotional even knowing that there's inevitably more to come, just that the after credits scene didn't change that one way or the other (in my opinion, it would be a shame if it did).  Nor have any of them really impacted their preceding story. 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.