Author Topic: City of Heroes 1.5  (Read 36772 times)

GenericHero05

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2015, 06:52:05 PM »
So...what you guys are saying is that I need to add new, awesome ways for players to blow their money?

What if you just made every possible IO also available for sale at some special shop, albeit for some very high price but not as crazy high as the auction house?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 07:24:59 AM by makjwalton »
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Inc42

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2015, 11:16:52 PM »
What if you just made every possible IO also available for sale at some special shop, albeit for some very high price but not as crazy high as the auction house?

This seems like a quick and easy solution to the problem some people believe to be around the market, but it would actually cause some problems.

Let's say that introduced with the launch of the game (because any other time would be very broken and destroy the economy) is an NPC that sells all sets out there at varying prices depending on power/rarity of the set. We can look at a specific rare and highly sought after piece, the Luck of the Gambler +7.5% global recharge buff which normally went for about 750 million on the market (fluctuating of course). This NPC now sells it for the amazing low price of 10 million. What happens as a result?

1) The market and value of currency will adjust. People on the market will now sell the LOTG piece for 9.9 million, and because this is happening at the launch of the game 10 million influence is now considered to be very valuable because people wont have farmed and built up large amounts of money, nor would they have been able to sell a rare piece for 1 billion influence. Temporarily the problem is not solved, it is just changed to a smaller amount. You can look at the early days of the game before IOs and compare it to after for this. Early on people didnt care about money, there was nothing to spend it on except SOs, very cheap, so when people gave away 1 million influence in a costume contest that was thought to be ridiculous amounts of money. Later this was considered very little.

2) The old farming methods to get large amounts of money are still there and still known. Very quickly the old large amounts of money are flowing, but with nothing to spend large amounts on the price of these sets becomes trivial to even casual players. This seems great, everyone gets the build that they want, what could be bad about it? Easy. People don't feel like they are being rewarded anymore, they don't feel special and they don't care about drops. For a large percentage of MMO players this will make the game very boring for them, and our community that has had almost 3 years to do nothing but shrink cannot afford to loose those players otherwise the game will not make enough money to be sustained and will likely vanish again (although with an obvious explanation unlike last time).

While things may not go down exactly like this all of these things have to be VERY carefully considered before any change that would affect the market so heavily can be made.

GenericHero05

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2015, 07:36:20 AM »
This seems like a quick and easy solution to the problem some people believe to be around the market, but it would actually cause some problems.

Let's say that introduced with the launch of the game (because any other time would be very broken and destroy the economy) is an NPC that sells all sets out there at varying prices depending on power/rarity of the set. We can look at a specific rare and highly sought after piece, the Luck of the Gambler +7.5% global recharge buff which normally went for about 750 million on the market (fluctuating of course). This NPC now sells it for the amazing low price of 10 million. What happens as a result?

1) The market and value of currency will adjust. People on the market will now sell the LOTG piece for 9.9 million, and because this is happening at the launch of the game 10 million influence is now considered to be very valuable because people wont have farmed and built up large amounts of money, nor would they have been able to sell a rare piece for 1 billion influence. Temporarily the problem is not solved, it is just changed to a smaller amount. You can look at the early days of the game before IOs and compare it to after for this. Early on people didnt care about money, there was nothing to spend it on except SOs, very cheap, so when people gave away 1 million influence in a costume contest that was thought to be ridiculous amounts of money. Later this was considered very little.

2) The old farming methods to get large amounts of money are still there and still known. Very quickly the old large amounts of money are flowing, but with nothing to spend large amounts on the price of these sets becomes trivial to even casual players. This seems great, everyone gets the build that they want, what could be bad about it? Easy. People don't feel like they are being rewarded anymore, they don't feel special and they don't care about drops. For a large percentage of MMO players this will make the game very boring for them, and our community that has had almost 3 years to do nothing but shrink cannot afford to loose those players otherwise the game will not make enough money to be sustained and will likely vanish again (although with an obvious explanation unlike last time).

While things may not go down exactly like this all of these things have to be VERY carefully considered before any change that would affect the market so heavily can be made.

I completely agree with that incentive to play need but there are plenty of players who don't farm or power level (kind of find it to be cheating).
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therain93

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2015, 02:58:26 PM »
I completely agree with that incentive to play need but there are plenty of players who don't farm or power level (kind of find it to be cheating).

Yeah, but keep in mind, as I cited above, there are plenty of merits and enhancement converters out there.   Inflation was in part due to only have a single source of drops at one point (the rare and highly desirable purple drop) and only a single currency largely amassing (INF).  Neither are the case.

Luck of the Gambler global recharge could be acquired through:
Lucky drop
200 reward merits
2 alignment merits
32 astral merits
getting lucky with the enhancement converter (that drop from super packs and are purchaseable*)

*Now, someone on paragonwiki was so kind as to breakdown the costs of converters:
10 reward merits + 250,000 inf got 1 converter
1 alignment merit + 2,500,000 inf got 10 converters
3 astral merits + 500,000 inf got 2 converters
1 empyrean merit + 1,250,000 inf got 5 converters

Summarizing, to buy 10 converters will cost about 2.5 million inf out of pocket.  What can you do with 10 converters?
3 converters -- change to another IO within the set.  pick up the elcheapo level 25 def/end/recharge LOTG and and convert until you get global recharge.
2 converters -- convert any set IO within a category.  pickup the elcheapo level 25 defense IO (gift of the ancients anyone?), convert until you get a LoTG, then convert within set until you get global recharge.
1 converter -- convert within rarity.  pickup elcheap level 25 IO and convert until you get defense set then use 2 converters to convert within, or convert until you get a LOTG and then convert within set (unless super lucky).

The point is, you won't necessarily have to play the market that aggressively, but there will be folks still willing to pay for instant gratification and marketeers will always profit from them.  As stated, I wouldn't tinker with the economy other than maybe raising the inf limit (which I'm sure several people will be willing to accept the challenge of meeting : ' )

Edit:
The first person that tries to sell a LotG global recharge for 100 million may get lucky and sell it, but likely it will sit.  And eventually prices will come down.  I just don't see recipes necessarily going for the orders of magnitude that they did in the past, considering how conceivable it is to possibly craft 1 if I simply play the game, finishing story arcs and participating in TFs.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 03:13:58 PM by therain93 »
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Inc42

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2015, 08:21:05 PM »
I completely agree with that incentive to play need but there are plenty of players who don't farm or power level (kind of find it to be cheating).

Yes, however in addition to what makjwalton has said, it should also be kept in mind that these sets are not at all needed to play the game and play it well. SOs were more than enough to play the game for years before IOs were introduced, and I don't think there is any content that would necessarily require that kind of build. Those super expensive builds are for those of us who want to put the time into taking it to the next level. Most of my 50s had full builds and a few of them had purple sets, because I was willing to put the time into the game to get it. I played the market, I farmed, and I traded people various things constantly. After years of playing the game and leveling up characters that is where I found the most fun, in designing brokenly powerful stuff and then working to feel that rush as I accomplished the build piece by piece. I knew a lot of other people who felt similarly.

To hand that out to every player for little to no effort cheapens it and worsens the experience. I'm sorry that if you don't want to put the time in you can't have a perma-dom or a brute that only uses Foot Stomp because it recharges so fast. That doesnt mean you cant do an ITF or Incarnate stuff. That doesnt mean that you cant enjoy the game any less, and in fact putting less time into it means you probably would not get to the burn out factor of leveling another character up that many people did.

Also I have no idea what power leveling even has to do with this topic. Power leveling is unrelated to the market entirely.

Aggelakis

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2015, 08:24:41 PM »
SOs were more than enough to play the game for years before IOs were introduced, and I don't think there is any content that would necessarily require that kind of build.
Except the Incarnate content, especially Dark Astoria since you don't have the gobs and gobs of I-Abilities a raid group can stack. Higher base accuracy, tohit boosts everywhere, higher damage and more esoteric effects... It's not required (you can do it - I did it a bit on my SO/HO Empath - very slowly and with a lot of deaths), but it's much, much better with IOs.
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Inc42

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2015, 08:29:52 PM »
I honestly did not experience Dark Astoria that much, but I know as far as the trials go that with the number of people there were people generally could not tell who had sets and who did not once the action started. Yes, they certainly helped, but they would never make or break a trial run, that was decided by the players knowing what they were doing more than anything else.

Aggelakis

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2015, 08:33:51 PM »
The lower trials, sure. The higher trials were less forgiving. Sure, you could brute force through them - throw enough corpses at something, you'll eventually win - but that wasn't fun.

Dark Astoria wasn't forgiving at all.
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GenericHero05

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2015, 03:25:05 AM »
Also I have no idea what power leveling even has to do with this topic. Power leveling is unrelated to the market entirely.

I agree. I was just lumping it in with the whole AE farming thing. It's all just taking the easy way. I mean c'mon, 0 to 50 in three hours. You might as well allow everyone to purchase their levels and any IO with real cash.
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RGladden

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2015, 01:04:44 PM »
High end builds that were tricked out with all the IO bells and whistles didn't show much of an advantage over conventional builds...but there WAS a difference.  However, if you did a lot of soloing....like I did....with the difficulty level kicked up several notches....the difference was readily apparent.

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2015, 02:16:51 PM »
Except the Incarnate content, especially Dark Astoria since you don't have the gobs and gobs of I-Abilities a raid group can stack. Higher base accuracy, tohit boosts everywhere, higher damage and more esoteric effects... It's not required (you can do it - I did it a bit on my SO/HO Empath - very slowly and with a lot of deaths), but it's much, much better with IOs.

I quite happily stomped through Dark Nasty content on SO's and Generic IO's.

I had my non-IO'd toons (which frankly was most of them, IO builds were something of a PITA to me) go through all of the incarnate trials and several contributed to "The Really Hard Way" runs if I had a toon that the trial leader though would be useful. (Unionites FTW! :P )

Incarnate level shifts, powers and playing as a group were far more important than individual builds.

<change of topic, slightly>

Oh, and power leveling does have an impact on the market, as your earning potential is miniscule below about 47, compared to level 50 generic recipe drops, set recipes, flat earning potential and *wanting* level 50 shinies for your build.  All of which impact supply and demand, which was the heart, soul and strange purple wobbly bit of the market.

Just my two pennorth, but YMMV.

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2015, 06:55:31 PM »
High end builds that were tricked out with all the IO bells and whistles didn't show much of an advantage over conventional builds...but there WAS a difference.  However, if you did a lot of soloing....like I did....with the difficulty level kicked up several notches....the difference was readily apparent.

actually I noticed one difference.  fully IO'd builds didn't suck

Hells Wing

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2015, 12:02:45 AM »
I've been pretty impressed by some of the work being done by Paragon Revival.  If Nate and crew manage to pull off the purchase of CoH's IP, and work goes ahead on Coh 1.5, I would personally like to see the original game ported over pretty well intact.  How do you guys feel about this?  There are some changes, however, that I would like to be made.

I never had much time to run task forces in the original game, so I missed out on some of the accolades that contributed to the survivability and power of a character.  I'd like to see a system introduced that would allow those, like myself, who had limited time to play, to be able to pick up such accolades, without the hard to deal with timed play that made task forces so hard for us to deal with.

And....more IO and salvage drops, to ease market costs.

What changes would you fanatics like to see introduced?

Regards, RGladden (Shuckins)

i'd like it the same, but also improved like a whole system overhaul for graphic fidelity and able to make more diverse npcs.

Ontop of that, sadly I've been attempting to enter Paragon Chat, however I keep forgetting what my characters looked like and I lost all the files on my old laptop.

JoCalibur

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2015, 06:10:01 PM »
If CoH 1.5 happens, one change that I would like to see would be a buff to Corruptors. I don't feel that Corruptors do that much more damage than Defenders, for how much better Defenders are at buffing. With the buff to Vigilance, a solo Defender deals about as much damage as a Corruptor, but with better buffs/debuffs.

I think Corruptors need a 20-30% increase in base damage. A 25% base damage buff to Corruptors would put them just under the base damage of Dominators (yes, they would still be under Dominators). Ranged damage is the primary for Corruptors, so why should the Dominator's secondary be more powerful than the Corruptor's primary? I get that Corruptors have Scourge, but that ability hardly sees meaningful use outside of AV fights.

I am not saying that Corruptors need to equal Blasters on damage output. I am just saying that a damage buff to Corruptors would be nice. Here is a rough comparison of ranged damage (actual modifiers in parenthesis):

Blasters = 10/10 (1.125)
VEATs = 9.0/10 (1.000)
Dominator = 8.5/10 (0.950)
Kheldians (human) = 7.2/10 (0.800)
Corruptors = 6.7/10 (0.750)
Defenders = 5.8/10 (0.650)

Corruptor 20% increase = 8/10 (0.900)
Corruptor 25% increase = 8.4/10 (0.938)
Corruptor 27% increase = 8.5 (0.953) roughly same as Dominator
Corruptor 30% increase = 8.7/10 (0.975)

I think that a 20-25% base damage buff to Corruptors would be reasonable. Making Corruptor damage the same as Dominator damage would be sweet. The 30% increase might be a tad too much. A slight damage buff to human form Kheldians would also be nice. Anyone else have any thoughts on the balance of Corruptor damage?

blacksly

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2015, 12:07:44 AM »
20-25% base damage buff to Corruptors? Have you considered their damage relative to Blasters, then, after buffing and/or debuffing?

Defenders are better than Corruptors overall when soloing, but on teams they lose their damage bonus, and there Corruptors are clearly ahead on damage. If you're only interested in soloing, then it's true that Defenders are generally better, but on teams having the choice between more damage and more buffing is a reasonable option.

And that's without considering Scourge... which is usually not a major effect, but there are a few powersets (Ice, Fire, Water) where their DoT powers take full advantage of Scourge.

I really don't see Corruptors as being overshadowed by Defenders. And I've done DPS calculations for plenty of builds for both, and when soloing AVs, Defenders aren't even 10% ahead on damage compared to the same build for Corruptors. Scourge balances that out against AVs, and in the remainder of situations I think it's quite reasonable to have 10% more damage AND better buffing but only when soloing, while having less damage but better buffing on teams. Quite often, on teams, buffing (or debuffing) is overkill, while more damage is always useful.

ryuplaneswalker

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2015, 02:00:46 AM »
So...what you guys are saying is that I need to add new, awesome ways for players to blow their money?

Gambling, for Incarnate mats!

APUK2015

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2015, 01:33:09 PM »
A possibly touchy subject in terms of changes to the game, but when/if it's possible to get rolling again - could MA be disabled?
In theory, MA was a massive bundle of joy when it was first announced. There were people dedicated to telling stories but it was basically a soulless powerlevelling tool by the end. Or within a week of launch, depending on your viewpoint. :-\

I can offer change suggestions and immediately see the inherent problems with them!

1) Remove/disable custom mobs, keep custom NPCs (so effectively mission contacts/escorts/rescues)
      Pros: Takes out the headache of risk/reward balancing from an already complex equation
      Cons: From a creative perspective, this is limiting.
                Some people enjoyed the challenge of creating extremely difficult bosses, EBs and AVs to battle.

2) Remove XP gain from published MA missions
     Pros: On the surface, this would appear to stop 'Meeeeoow Pharm LULZ!!!!!!!' in its tracks
     Cons: Arguably would lead to MA becoming deserted

3) Develop low-level mob powers for use in MA for custom mobs
    Pros: Unless one employed the in-game mobs (The Christmas Croatoa mobs were slightly more difficult - those lvl 1-54 critters!),
              low-level custom mobs were often slightly OP for low level toons, especially Defenders. Not all of course. But the presence of a
              power like [Throw Rock] or [Brawl] even was sorely needed for those lower-level critters we made from scratch.
    Cons: Development time for a potentially under-used resource.

I'm consciously avoiding things like the oft-requested 'branching dialogues' and 'cut scenes' because, well, development time again.


I'm just happy to be able to create a toon and walk them around at the moment. I do miss pew pew action and doing missions and late night TFs of course, but the work you've managed to do so far has been wonderful.

Rejolt

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2015, 04:38:35 PM »
Gambling, for Incarnate mats!

/Looksatgrowingtrendsinonlinegaming

I... you... don't even... gaaaah.

Just tell us how much you need to run it and make a profit and we'll pay it. Flat Tax for the City's Heroes!
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ryuplaneswalker

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2015, 03:50:57 AM »
I thought that comment was for ideas involving ways to reduce Inf from the economy, not blow real world money.

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: City of Heroes 1.5
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2015, 03:59:03 AM »
I'm personally not a huge fan of pay-to-win, or an excess of micro-transaction items...so I don't think people have much to fear from seeing too much of those.
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